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Zergrusheddie
2009-01-26, 08:30 PM
It certainly seems like the Swordsage isn't as strong as the Warblade; less armor, 50% less HP, MAB, and MAD. They do get more Maneuvers, but doesn't that mean that the rely on them more than Warblades? Also, one Maneuver gained as a full-round action? The Warblade need only take a Swift Action in a round that they used no other Maneuvers. The Adaptive Style feat may help, but all that means is that you can use your weaker maneuvers (the ones you didn't want to be prepared).

I know that the Swordsage is the 'new' Monk and the Warblade is the 'new' Fighter, so they are tough to compare. But why is it that so many people suggest the Swordsage and not the Warblade? Are Warblades like Sorcerers; they may get more spells per days but they are extremely limited?
No argument intended, just wondering if the classes are roughly equal :smallsmile:.

Best of luck
-Eddie

MisterSaturnine
2009-01-27, 01:46 AM
Swordsages can use Adaptive Style to recharge all their maneuvers, if I'm not mistaken--they can just re-prepare the ones they had going at the beginning of battle. This also means they can keep utility ones in reserve and use on full-round action to be able to use them.

One must also pay attention to the schools that only Swordsages get--Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand. These are the most overtly magical of all the schools (or at least the first and last of the three are), and have the appropriate power to go with it. Desert Wind hits very hard, though the fire thing can be a problem, and Shadow Hand is very, very potent with lots of handy utility effects.

Swordsages get the most schools, the most maneuvers know, and the most maneuvers prepared, giving them the most variety of all the ToB classes.

crazedloon
2009-01-27, 01:53 AM
and more often then not a player will dip one level into warblade which allows them to ready all their maneuvers (a considerable number) with that swift action while maintaining the incredible versatility (and even gaining some with the weapon aptitude ability).

Townopolis
2009-01-27, 01:58 AM
and more often then not a player will dip one level into warblade which allows them to ready all their maneuvers (a considerable number) with that swift action while maintaining the incredible versatility (and even gaining some with the weapon aptitude ability).

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work, in much the same way a wizard can't dip in sorcerer to be able to cast wizard spells spontaneously.

Zerg: Also keep in mind that the SS gets good Will saves, quick to act, and defensive stance, among other things. Overall, I believe the special abilities the SS gets are a little more worthwhile than those the WB gets.

Also, the main issue with 3/4ths BAB as opposed to 1/lvl is that 3/4ths essentially restricts you to 1 attack per round that has a decent chance of hitting. For core martial archetypes, this is a problem. A full attacking fighter will do roughly 2x the damage of a full attacking monk simply because he gets twice as many attacks that are likely to hit.

With ToB, the difference is drastically reduced. Strikes make one attack per round on par with any full attack action. The WB still gets +5 to hit over the SS (well, +4 if the SS is smart and using a weapon he has focus in), but the difference is still much smaller than it is between fighter and monk.

Vortling
2009-01-27, 02:04 AM
They're roughly equal but have different focuses. The warblade has an easier recovery mechanic and doesn't tend to be as feat poor but doesn't have the versatility of the swordsage. The swordsage has more maneuvers and therefore more versatility. Adaptive style alone allows swordsages to be ready for many different situations.

Muad'dib
2009-01-27, 02:04 AM
I'm pretty sure that doesn't work, in much the same way a wizard can't dip in sorcerer to be able to cast wizard spells spontaneously.

Indeed it does not. You may only recover maneuvers you gained as a warblade in this manner and you may only ready maneuvers that you learned as a warblade in your warblade readied maneuvar slots. The only hazy area is maneuvers accessed through the martial study feats, which, if I understand it correctly, may be readied in any of your readied maneuver slots. It might be necessary to choose a specific class to do so with at the time you take the feat though.

Draz74
2009-01-27, 02:05 AM
I'm pretty sure that doesn't work, in much the same way a wizard can't dip in sorcerer to be able to cast wizard spells spontaneously.

You're right about that. But crazedloon didn't mean a Swordsage dipping into Warblade (though that isn't a bad build strategy either!). He just meant people who are dipping into ToB in general tend to go Warblade.

I'm not sure he's right; I've seen a lot of people recommend dipping Swordsage, mostly because it has a lot more skill monkey-friendly abilities and maneuvers and stances. Mostly via Shadow Hand.

Eldariel
2009-01-27, 02:25 AM
I know that the Swordsage is the 'new' Monk and the Warblade is the 'new' Fighter, so they are tough to compare. But why is it that so many people suggest the Swordsage and not the Warblade? Are Warblades like Sorcerers; they may get more spells per days but they are extremely limited?
No argument intended, just wondering if the classes are roughly equal :smallsmile:.

They're different. Swordsage is more of a skillmonkey, and yes, of course it's also more maneuver reliant (since that's the whole idea of the class; focuses on studying the actual martial maneuvers rather than rudimentary swordsmanship and thus knows more maneuvers, but is worse with the blade), but that's really in no way a bad thing; you'll be constantly using maneuvers anyways and the Swordsage is more likely to have just the thing for the sitiuation.

Now, what you're missing is that the Swordsage has an unwritten rule: "Every Swordsage picks Adaptive Style." It means they not only can replenish all their maneuvers as a Full-Round Action, they also can draw unto their vast selection of maneuvers and prepare just what they need for this encounter. Also note Swordsage's schools: Swordsage has three exclusive schools to Warblade and Crusader's 1. That means that there're lots of martial builds that need to be Swordsages simply because the school access is there. Like, Martial Adept Rogue pretty much has to go SS as they really focus on Shadow Hand. Same with Monk: Setting Sun is like made for them. And TWFers really like at least dipping SS for Shadow Blade and Desert Wind (which also has some handy defenses like Immunity to Fire and counter that grants +4 to AC vs. 1 attack).

To answer the question "But why is it that so many people suggest the Swordsage and not the Warblade?": It's simply a factor of how many concepts you can realize with the class. Thanks to the Unarmed adaptation and wider maneuver selection, the Swordsage fits a great deal more ideas than the Warblade; non-direct combatants are easily built as Swordsages while they can also be frontliners - Warblades are mostly limited to the latter (although White Raven gives them Commander-abilities too).

Also, it's worth remembering that while yes, Swordsage is limited in the armor he can wear, he can wear armor while getting Wis to AC. For characters focusing on Wis and Dex (one as primary, the other as secondary - thanks to School Focus, Intuitive Attack, Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, it's possible to derive your attacks off either stat), this means that Swordsages actually tend to have the best AC out of all characters as they get Dex + Wis + Armor. Mithril Breastplate + 20 Dex + lots of Wis = very high AC just midway through. So while, yes, Swordsages have less HP than Warblades, they have higher AC by and large.


The answer to "No argument intended, just wondering if the classes are roughly equal?": Yes, they're roughly equal. The Warblade is a better and tougher frontliner, but the Swordsage makes for a much better skirmisher, and can be built into a tough frontliner too. Swordsage is more of a skill monkey/warrior (many builds need to rely on maneuvers for damage, of course, but that's fine for Swordsages), which means that he has different advantages to the very clear frontliner Warblade, but that doesn't make him worse.

Warblade has more HP, is more accurate and is harder to surprise and so on. Swordsage has more AC (or roughly equallish AC if we're talking about an Str-based SS build), just the maneuver for this particular sitiuation and wider school access. So they both have things going on for them.

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-27, 03:17 AM
As usual Eld, you are able to explain things extremely well and give a list reasons.

Yeah, when I read ToB I almost cried. How the hell is a non-ToB Melee character going to keep up with a ToB class? My Monk would have gotten his ass handed to him if he ran into a Sword Sage.

AslanCross
2009-01-27, 03:27 AM
As usual Eld, you are able to explain things extremely well and give a list reasons.

Yeah, when I read ToB I almost cried. How the hell is a non-ToB Melee character going to keep up with a ToB class? My Monk would have gotten his ass handed to him if he ran into a Sword Sage.

Well, one could ask how a melee character would keep up with a caster, but that's another story.

I did realize that non-ToB melee class levels work quite well when multiclassing with ToB levels, though--thanks to the "non-Martial adept levels give half initiator level progression" rule. Warblade multiclasses well with Fighter (for the bonus feats) and even qualifies for the fighter-exclusive feats. Swordsage, on the other hand, works really well with a lot of other melee classes. The rogue in our party took a number of Swordsage levels, and she really owns with Bonecrusher+Sneak Attack+Assassin's Stance.
I even came up with a Paladin/Swordsage who uses the Serenity feat to reduce her MAD. She dual-wields light maces (which I rendered as tonfas) and uses Desert Wind and Tiger Claw to maximize her damage.
The Charging Smite variant works well with some Desert Wind maneuvers (especially Searing Charge). I can't wait to find an opportunity to use this character.

Eldariel
2009-01-27, 03:45 AM
As usual Eld, you are able to explain things extremely well and give a list reasons.

Yeah, when I read ToB I almost cried. How the hell is a non-ToB Melee character going to keep up with a ToB class? My Monk would have gotten his ass handed to him if he ran into a Sword Sage.

Glad to be of help. As for how this goes, the way for non-ToB melee to keep up with ToB melee is focus. A non-ToB melee character can be really good at one thing; the thing ToB adds is the ability to be good at a thing while still being good at other things. Like, take the Barbarian Charger:
Power Attack -> Shock Trooper -> Leap Attack -> Improved Trip [Wolf-Totem Barbarian] -> Knock-Down with Pounce [Spirit Lion Barbarian] and Whirling Frenzy [Rage-variant].

Once that guy Charges something, he'll be dealing insane amounts of damage while also knocking the opponent prone (making more hits land and making it even tougher for the opponent to do anything relevant even if they somehow do survive). For the record, the damage would be something like (Str*1.5 (Rage-boosted) + BABx4 (Leap Attack + Shock Trooper) + Weapon Enhancement)*attacks (3 for level 6, for example).

Level 8 Str 24 (26 enhanced, 30 Raging) Orc Barbarian with a +1 weapon (with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it) would get a total of:
8+10+2=+20/+20/+15 attack rolls (Charging and Frenzy negate each other)

for:

7 (average of 2d6 = Greatsword's damage) + 15 Str + 32 Power Attack + 2 Sword Enhancement each hit = total of 56 damage. Three times (for a total of 168). And if the first Trip-attempt succeeds, you're looking at an opponent with -4 to AC. And this is without Haste or anything.


Another example would be Lockdown Fighter. Let's say Half-Ogre. Spiked Chain, Stand Still, Deft Opportunist, Combat Reflexes, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer, Power Attack. People in his threatened area aren't moving. Ever. And he's hitting 'em hard each turn while they...stand and watch. Or provoke more AoOs. He doesn't care one way or another. He could also pick a level of Monk for Decisive Strike, which means you get double damage on your AoOs. Improved Trip would work for everything small enough to Trip while Stand Still can hold anything at all at bay.



The purpose of those examples is to show that with sufficient focus, you can indeed match up to ToB classes without ToB, but the thing is, a ToB character is going to be good at a great deal of other things too and have much more versatile defense and it'll be much more fun to play. Which is why I suggest ToB to everyone I see playing 3.5 without it. Biggest splatbook boost of fun I experienced during my entire 3.5 career.

And of course, ToB characters were built more with the spellcasters than the other melee characters in mind. Spellcasters are still more versatile and more powerful, but at least a ToB character has a clear role in the party and can pull his own weight, casters or no casters. And they definitely make for great protectors and glass cannons.