OOTS #626 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Underfoot]

Is that the same dragon from back when V got polymorphed into a lizard?

[Nimrod's Son]

EDIT: Gah! Never mind.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm assuming it is. I wonder who revived him, though?

[Jan Mattys]

err...

Can't wait for the next strip to throw some light on this one.

[Lumenadducere]

Well, that's definitely interesting.

[Shadic]

Where did that dragon come from!?

[slurpz]

I imagine the dragon to have a very deep bass voice.

[LeGrenade]

Looks like he just came out of the sea.

[SPoD]

It's not the same dragon:

1.) This one has red eyes, not green.
2.) This one has curvy horns, not straight.
3.) This one is at least double the size.

This is probably the other dragon's much-older mother, father, sibling, etc.

Which means V is in deep trouble.

EDIT: Black dragons can breathe water; it likely was hiding under the water and then rose up to make itself known at a key moment.

[Bret_Hawkeye]

WoW! What a comeback! Didnt see that one coming! :smalleek:

[Parlik]

Is that the same dragon from back when V got polymorphed into a lizard?

Could be its mother/father?

Just I remember it referring to its mother, and that one of the Oots'ers mentioning the cave having belonged to an older dragon.

[factotum]

Got me baffled, that's for sure. One thing that suggests it ISN'T the same dragon as before is its eyes--the dragon V disintegrated had green eyes, this one has red ones. Question is, though, if it ISN'T the same dragon, how does it know his name?

[ghost_warlock]

:biggrin:

Wild Speculation Time!
- The dragon is the same one V disintegrated ages ago.
- The dragon is the son/daughter of the one V disintegrated ages ago.
- The cake dragon is a lie. (The dragon is an illusion; nevermind the water-drip tactile component).
- The dragon is some other fiend disguising itself as a dragon to unknown end.
- The dragon is V's 'mate,' polymorphed, finally having tracked V down.
- The dragon is the nose of Dr. Verlucci, returned on the anniversary of the day V betrayed him!

[Lord of Rapture]

- The dragon is V's 'mate,' polymorphed, finally having tracked V down.


That's what I guessed, minus polymorphing, so we don't know V's gender.

[hendrake]

I'm agreeing with those who said it's a parent of the one V disintegrated. Clearly a "force of darkness" from V's drawn out last line. Should be cool since V wasted all that juice on an annoyance. Bat-belt's a little thin at the moment, I'm guessing! Might be time for the Giant to do a cutaway, just to screw with us! :)

[Glome]

I bet it was the guardian of the starmetal

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html

[tomaO2]

FOUR WORDS!!!

"The forces of darkness"

Is this it? Is V on the path to ultimate power? I don't recall the exact quote. Looking for it now but I just had to be the first to jump on that if right.

Edit: Quote goes "by saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

Meh, I could be reaching. Still, it has a certain level of appropriateness.

[Castel]

This is one hell of a cliffhanger.

Speculation ahoy.Hmm... maybe that was the "Important Client" the oracle mentioned a while back, who went there to ask him who disintegrated his son/relative.

[Ninjamuffin]

Whoa-ho, problematic.
/Strong Bad
Time for fun and games, it seems.

[StingerUT]

:smalleek:okey... didnt see that one coming

[David Argall]

Here you see the dangers of concentrating too hard on the task at hand.

The dragon is likely kin of the previous dragon. and
somehow Qarr is going to rescue V, at least in some degree, which will put V in a much more vulnerable situation.

[TengYt]

Let's face it. NO ONE saw this coming.

[Mordokai]

Didn't see this one coming, that's for sure.

[MisterLeirus]

UUUUUUUUps !! I am guessing it is definetly the parent... I remember the one in the cave was a youngling... Do the dragons in D&D some kind of shared memeries?

[Infernal Badger]

I think it's the mother.
They can be touchy about these things...

[hendrake]

Let's face it. NO ONE saw this coming.

It's the black dragon of the Spanish Inquisition!

Sorry, sorry - couldn't resist. Deepest apologies.

[SPoD]

Let's face it. NO ONE saw this coming.

Eric Greenhilt did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html)

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think they do, MisterLeirus. The Oracle idea would make sense regarding how the dragon knew V's name, unless it could scry.

[Yendor]

Uh... Suggestion?

[Manga Shoggoth]

What the...

Every so often, Rich does something to remind me why I read this strip. Once per page, on average.

That's a big dragon...

[xatm092]

Since the dragon seemed to want to emphasise the disintegrate point, it is almost definitely related to the dragon V disintegrated ealier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html).

If you ask me, it's the same dragon, somehow.

True resurrection, maybe.

[Lazaro]

Well that was unexpected, and bad. Mostly bad.

[Shadowcaller]

The dragon could be the relative of the young dragon V killed long time ago.

OR (but maybe a bit unlikely)

Its Kubota in his true dragon form. The "evidence" would be: the dragon came from the sea that Kubotas remains fell into, why just not fly?

[Hamilkar]

Ok.... This was... random...?
Do we know that black dragon?
All the questions! :smallwink:

Edit:


Its Kubota in his true dragon form. The "evidence" would be: the dragon came from the sea that Kubotas remains fell into, why just not fly?

This would fit in, in a quite strange way. I really like that theory! :smallbiggrin:

[shylocxs]

my first thought is that this has to be the same one also. knowing V's name seems like the clincher.

[SPoD]

my first thought is that this has to be the same one also. knowing V's name seems like the clincher.

Vaarsuvius' name was never spoken during the previous dragon battle.

Proven wrong below. However, I still see multiple physical differenes between the two.

[EyethatBinds]

I'll concur with the theory this black dragon learned of Vaarsuvius through the oracle. The reason for it caring for the younger dragon is anyone's guess but relation could be the simplest answer... and therefore unlikely that the author has chosen it.

[Yendor]

Vaarsuvius' name was never spoken during the previous dragon battle.

Yes it was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) That dragon isn't the same one though, for reasons already mentioned in this thread.

EDIT: Ah, that was you. So yeah.

[kamuishirou]

Disintegrate!

Uh-oh :)

[werik]

It has got to be a relative of the dragon that V blasted. Even if it was resurrected, there's no way that it could have gotten that much more powerful (bigger is what I'm basing that on) in such a short time. And "the true form of Kubota?" If Kubota could turn into a dragon why not just do that on the rowboat with Elan and eat the only hero stopping him?

It's got to be a relative and I think it's highly likely, as someone else mentioned above, that it is the client that was going to fly in to see the Oracle right before Roy got dismissed back into the afterlife.

But yeah. Of all of the things I thought might happen, this was not one of them.

[The Wanderer]

The dragon must be a relative of the one killed, as it appears much larger and, well, more filled out. (The other one was on the gangly side).

Oh, and I believe the situation can be summed up in one word, as spoken by Himura Kenshin, a character that I have been compared to a number of times: "Oro! (http://x86.xanga.com/a1fb8a515743157562401/w38581710.jpg)"

[King of Nowhere]

That's a lesson about using all your highest level spells in the morning.
Oh, and why in this comic no one succeeded a save against disitegrate ever?? In a real DnD disintegrate would be quite usless against a dragon.
Also, quarr is not dead (around 80 hp for an imp, he wasn't some low rate schmuck), so his part in the story is not concluded yet. Maybe he will win V's help by helping hir in the fight? (say, by teleporting hir away)?

[The Wanderer]

Also, quarr is not dead (around 80 hp for an imp, he wasn't some low rate schmuck), so his part in the story is not concluded yet. Maybe he will win V's help by helping hir in the fight? (say, by teleporting hir away)?

I was thinking much the same. And if Qarr does aid or save V, and appears to help with V's attempts to find Haley, V might find joining the forces of darkness to be much more tempting that he/she is right now...

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Go Dragon! Its time for some sweet revenge!

Okay, the Dragon probably will not kill V but it could at least make her more careful about who she disintegrates.

[SixOfSpades]

The dragon could be the relative of the young dragon V killed long time ago.
OR (but maybe a bit unlikely)
Its Kubota in his true dragon form. The "evidence" would be: the dragon came from the sea that Kubotas remains fell into, why just not fly?
Very unlikely. Partially because of the non-spoilered info above, and reinforced by the fact that
Qaar is apparently quite sure that Kubota is dead--and you'd think he would know.

[SPoD]

That's a lesson about using all your highest level spells in the morning.
Oh, and why in this comic no one succeeded a save against disitegrate ever?? In a real DnD disintegrate would be quite usless against a dragon.
Also, quarr is not dead (around 80 hp for an imp, he wasn't some low rate schmuck), so his part in the story is not concluded yet. Maybe he will win V's help by helping hir in the fight? (say, by teleporting hir away)?

What I find amusing about this post is that you first complain that no one ever makes their save, then extrapolate the imp's hit points based solely on the assumption that he failed his save. Did it occur to you that maybe you were seeing someone succeed in a save against Disintegrate right now? A successful save against Disintegrate still inflicts 5d6 damage, after all.

[magic9mushroom]

I'm actually going to stick my neck out on this one and say that these are the 4 words.

Right being: Qarr.
Right time: Obvious.
Wrong reasons: She was saying it in the middle of a tirade on why she wouldn't join Qarr, when the words end up being the key to how she will join him.

Evidence of being the right 4 words: Vaarsuvius pauses before the drop hits her head, and before she's in shadow. It's obvious that she realises what she's saying in the middle of it. Evidently those 4 words have some meaning to her.

Prediction on what will happen: Qarr summons a powerful devil, which saves Vaarsuvius from certain death. Vaarsuvius therefore DOES ally with the forces of darkness.

[Jelissei]

Here the young dragon says something about his mother having him taught Lizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html)

So probably it´s his mom.

[Moonshadow]

V needs some Bat-Dragon repellant, stat! :smalltongue:

[Delgarde]

Y'know, Vaarsuvius really takes study-time seriously. Sitting on a desert island with no serious expectations of combat, he/she has prepared Disintegrate at least 4 times for the day. Is this normal scholarly routine, or was this all there to deal with an annoying imp?

[Moonshadow]

Also, the 4 words could all be Disintergrate >> V does cast it four times.


And for some reason, I get the impression that this dragon is male, but we shall see.

[The Wanderer]

I'm actually going to stick my neck out on this one and say that these are the 4 words.

Right being: Qarr.
Right time: Obvious.
Wrong reasons: She was saying it in the middle of a tirade on why she wouldn't join Qarr, when the words end up being the key to how she will join him.

Evidence of being the right 4 words: Vaarsuvius pauses before the drop hits her head, and before she's in shadow. It's obvious that she realises what she's saying in the middle of it. Evidently those 4 words have some meaning to her.

Prediction on what will happen: Qarr summons a powerful devil, which saves Vaarsuvius from certain death. Vaarsuvius therefore DOES ally with the forces of darkness.

Yes, because, you know, it's completely impossible that V might have heard the gigantic dragon getting out of the water and the water it would displace before a shadow fell on hir.

God, but some of the reaching that people do in looking for four words is pathetic. :smallannoyed:

[TengYt]

These days, V can't open her mouth without people assuming he is saying the right four words.

[Ceannaideach]

Its Kubota in his true dragon form. The "evidence" would be: the dragon came from the sea that Kubotas remains fell into, why just not fly?

This was my first thought when I saw that dragon.

[xatm092]

These days, V can't open her mouth without people assuming he is saying the right four words.

Can someone remind me what this 4 words thing is? I can't remember :(

[SPoD]

Its Kubota in his true dragon form. The "evidence" would be: the dragon came from the sea that Kubotas remains fell into, why just not fly?

Uh, for the element of surprise? You see a giant black dragon flying from miles away, but if you're not watching the water, you won't notice a giant black dragon beneath the waves.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm remaining neutral on the four words issue, but it's looking quite likely that Vaarsuvius will now have a more worthwhile motivation to ally with Qarr. Which kinda sucks.

[Tempest Fennac]

The Oracle said V would get ultimate arcane power by saying the right 4 words to the right being for the wrong reasons. This has read to some readers thinking that everytime V says 4 words, it will lead to them getting the power they want.

[TengYt]

It's really likely that this Black Dragon is the "Important guest" the oracle was supposed to have, which is how he/she knows who Vaarsuvius is and where to find the Wizard.

[LuisDantas]

Got me baffled, that's for sure. One thing that suggests it ISN'T the same dragon as before is its eyes--the dragon V disintegrated had green eyes, this one has red ones. Question is, though, if it ISN'T the same dragon, how does it know his name?

Qarr tipped hir off. That's why he took a while to contact V; he had set up a safety network of sorts. Which also explains why the dragon was waiting underwater, as well as its apparent sensitiveness to the "Disintegrate" spell/word which, used twice, killed its likely offspring.

Poetic simmetry here. The previous encounter with a black dragon was the first stance of Vaarsuvius deciding that the Order's judgement was not trustworthy and therefore he/she needed to take matters into hir own hands. This one seems headed to make V realize that it is still worthwhile having friends and allies even with the downsides.

[Shadowcaller]

Uh, for the element of surprise? You see a giant black dragon flying from miles away, but if you're not watching the water, you won't notice a giant black dragon beneath the waves.

Well as I said, its a unlikely theory but certain elements fit into it (but then again thats what all conspiracy theories have.)


Qarr tipped hir off. That's why he took a while to contact V; he had set up a safety network of sorts. Which also explains why the dragon was waiting underwater, as well as its apparent sensitiveness to the "Disintegrate" spell/word which, used twice, killed its likely offspring.

Poetic simmetry here. The previous encounter with a black dragon was the first stance of Vaarsuvius deciding that the Order's judgement was not trustworthy and therefore he/she needed to take matters into hir own hands. This one seems headed to make V realize that it is still worthwhile having friends and allies even with the downsides.

And i think I like that theory even more.

[Hatchet]

Wow. Like so many others, I thought Quarr will be the right being from the Oracle's prophecy. Now that I think about it, Quarr seems too week to be the being who helps V gain ultimate arcane power.

A huge black dragon, on the other hand...

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think they do, MisterLeirus. The Oracle idea would make sense regarding how the dragon knew V's name, unless it could scry.
Yes it would, but an older dragon can cast spells, including divinations. Although black dragons aren't particularly good at this.



Oh, and why in this comic no one succeeded a save against disitegrate ever??
Let's see. The black dragon probably failed his save, but had enough hit points anyway. Against Miko, V failed his concentration check. The death knight made his SR check, which is even better. Kubota may have made his save, but could have too few hit points regardless. And against Qarr, he missed his attack roll three times. So Disintegrate fails plenty of times, methinks.

[Glome]

As a side note, it was pretty foolish of V to be researching his spell on some barren rock in the first place. While I don't have the spell research rules in front of me, I'm pretty sure V would get some major bonuses if he had access to a library. Even given the time sensitive nature of the spell, it still seems like the benefits of going to town big enough for a library to research would far out way the travel time.

Of course given V's insomnia, I wouldn't expect V to make well thought decisions right now anyway.

[Crod]

Iiik..

Rich, don't you dare shift focus to one of the other groups in the comic now. Evil, evil cliffhanger.

[magic9mushroom]

Yes, because, you know, it's completely impossible that V might have heard the gigantic dragon getting out of the water and the water it would displace before a shadow fell on hir.

God, but some of the reaching that people do in looking for four words is pathetic. :smallannoyed:

Well, excuse me, but apart from disparaging my character, have you got anything else to pick apart? I would note that this is the first time I've claimed four words.

Interestingly enough, looking back at when Vaarsuvius ran into the other dragon, there was a Darkness spell in effect.

[xatm092]

Rich, don't you dare shift focus to one of the other groups in the comic now.

This will almost undoubtedly happen.

[Gilthans]

Mother of all dragons!
SPECULATION TIME!
-> Dragon's mother comes home after returning from somewhere to find son dead, starmetal missing (gasp! adventurers!)
-> Dragon's fury unleashed, she seeks out the oracle who tells her of a certain elf who disintegrated her son.
-> Dragon's need for vengence is unparalleled only to its wisdom (adult dragon and all).
-> Dragon locates said elf, and lurks by, waiting for the opportune moment (perhaps even since much earlier), since Dragon realizes elf could defeat it in combat with the same spells he defeated his son with.
-> Dragon listens to Vaarsuvius cast no less than FOUR of his allocated 6th level spells for the day

OPPORTUNE MOMENT AHOY!

I wonder how our hero will squeeze out of this one, folks.

EDIT:
Also, I think Vaarsuvius' four words were "Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit". Cue far-fetched, questionably logical and obviously incorrect reasoning behind said theory.

I think Rich will actually never make the four words prophecy just to piss us off.

[ref]

Definitely Dragon's mom. Vaarsuvius is in trouble...

[Majorman]

Wow, these new strips started coming on a more regular basis. It must be my birthday.

I support the theory that the big dragon actually is related to the young adult that V desintegrated previously, as hinted here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html. I would also restrain myself from unjustified claims abot the prediction. C'mon guys, V's prophecy will come true when it comes true and not a strip before that. And when that happens we will all know it.

Otherwise... Tenshion. I'm out of fingernails and all sweaty.

[Athaniar]

It's not the same dragon, look at the horns. And eyes. And size. I'd say mother. But the Kubota theory sounds interesting, as well? Why not combine the two? Kubota is the mother dragon!

Also, exciting cliffhanger and many new strips in a short period of time, yay!

[Calavera]

Could someone link to the Oracle strip where this is implied?

[Tempest Fennac]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html Here it is.:smallsmile:

[LuisDantas]

You know what? I just decided that a even more interesting possibility (which doesn't really contradict anything established as far as I can tell) would be

for the dragon to be good.

See, if it is the mother of the one V previously encountered, it had a "good neighborhood" policy to other reptiles at the very least - not really an evil trait, come to think of it.

And this "say it one more time for me" line is actually pretty ambiguous. It may easily be due to a desire for revenge not against Vaarsuvius, but rather against Qarr, who after all is anything but safe company for anyone.

For all we know, the dragon could be hunting Qarr for a while and had hidden under water in order to replenish its own spells. And its next line could well be "I've been meaning to chastise this agent of Evil for a while now, but the need for rest and the lack of a supporting group hinder me quite a lot" or something to that effect, less-than-subtly hinting to V how he/she is playing with hir luck and how unwise it was to alienate all hir allies and friends.

As added benefits, it would also be a subversion of the dragon color-alignment matching (which is, come to think of it, quite ridiculous) as well as a delightful opportunity of proving Miko wrong in approving the Order's behavior in this particular past stance.

What a masterfully ambiguous strip! :)

[Stormgale]

I couldnt help but think this
Disintigrate has been said 3 times, the dragon is asking for a fourth (it was never said that it was 4 different words after all, or that they were said in a phrase).

V is not destroying our little Devil friend not because he is evil
But because he is merely a distraction
(almost) 4 words, said for the wrong reason

Or it could be the lack of sleep talking

[raven-gm]

You know what? I just decided that a even more interesting possibility (which doesn't really contradict anything established as far as I can tell) would be

for the dragon to be good.

See, if it is the mother of the one V previously encountered, it had a "good neighborhood" policy to other reptiles at the very least - not really an evil trait, come to think of it.

And this "say it one more time for me" line is actually pretty ambiguous. It may easily be due to a desire for revenge not against Vaarsuvius, but rather against Qarr, who after all is anything but safe company for anyone.

For all we know, the dragon could be hunting Qarr for a while and had hidden under water in order to replenish its own spells. And its next line could well be "I've been meaning to chastise this agent of Evil for a while now, but the need for rest and the lack of a supporting group hinder me quite a lot" or something to that effect, less-than-subtly hinting to V how he/she is playing with hir luck and how unwise it was to alienate all hir allies and friends.

As added benefits, it would also be a subversion of the dragon color-alignment matching (which is, come to think of it, quite ridiculous) as well as a delightful opportunity of proving Miko wrong in approving the Order's behavior in this particular past stance.

What a masterfully ambiguous strip! :)

For this, you are my hero.

[Ghastly Epigram]

dun dun DUN!!!!

[Kranden]

Holy ****!

[KIDS]

Uh-oh. How's that thing still alive after the disintegrates back in the cave? Regardless, even if it's another one, I sure hope Varsuvius has freedom of movement ready...

[CallingCtulhu]

Judging from everyone's wild mass guessing, I'd say that the dragon has absolutely nothing to do with the previous starmetal-guarding dragon.

[Roderick_BR]

OMG! OMG! OMG!
It'll keep me at the edge of my seat now. Well played, Giant, well played :smallbiggrin:
Now I want to know if this is the same dragon as well.

[Shadowcaller]

Judging from everyone's wild mass guessing, I'd say that the dragon has absolutely nothing to do with the previous starmetal-guarding dragon.

It could be some old enemy to V that happends to be a black dragon, that expalins how it knows V's name.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think they do, MisterLeirus. The Oracle idea would make sense regarding how the dragon knew V's name, unless it could scry.
Yes it would, but an older dragon can cast spells, including divinations. Although black dragons aren't particularly good at this.



Oh, and why in this comic no one succeeded a save against disitegrate ever??
Let's see. The black dragon probably failed his save, but had enough hit points anyway. Against Miko, V failed his concentration check. The death knight made his SR check, which is even better. Kubota may have made his save, but could have too few hit points regardless. And against Qarr, he missed his attack roll three times. So Disintegrate fails plenty of times, methinks.

[Cicciograna]

Okay, a black dragon comes from nowhere. My first thought was: "This is a relative of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) black dragon". But...


this dragon has a lot of information about V: she (assuming it's the mother) knows V's name, knows that the elf killed her son with Disintegrate, knows where to find V; how could she have gathered so many facts? Magic, of course, makes the difference, but why chase Vaarsuvius and not Haley? I don't think evil dragons are family-lovers, and the sole reason I could come up with for an evil dragon to chase someone who killed her son is to get his treasure back: Haley was much more eager to put her hands on the hoard...
the Giant took us by surprise by throwing in a character who none of us expected, demonstrating to be a master o storytelling. I can't believe he will fall in the overabused clichè "I help you to defeat your foe, so I earn your respect": for a moment I thought that now Qarr will help V to survive the encounter and the elf will threat him better and listen to him. But...no, it's too banal for the Giant...
assuming that in this strip Rich payed respect to realism, a BIG black dragon coming ashore from the sea would have been visible at the distance of about 50 meters from the shore, as his massive body could not be entirely kept underwater: so, IMHO, this is not a dragon, but some polymorphed creature, that swam underwater to the shore and then, seeing that V was in combat, choose another, more frightening form; which leads me to the next point...
I too think the dragon is good: he asked V to cast Disintegrate once more, and as V was keen on disintegrate Qaar, the dragon could be wishing this end for the imp too. So he could be some sort of V's ally, maybe his famous consort...

[MickJay]

What cracks me up is that even if someone did/will guess the words correctly, the forum response would be "not one of those crazy theories again" :smallbiggrin:

Now the simplest solution would be if V accepted Qarr's proposal because of the dragon, but if Qarr's closed eyes in the last panel indicate he fainted, that might not happen either. On the other hand, the dragon might have a proposal of its own (if it didn't care too much about the fate of - I'm assuming - its progeny).

[Shadowcaller]

Okay, a black dragon comes from nowhere. My first thought was: "This is a relative of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) black dragon". But...


this dragon has a lot of information about V: she (assuming it's the mother) knows V's name, knows that the elf killed her son with Disintegrate, knows where to find V; how could she have gathered so many facts? Magic, of course, makes the difference, but why chase Vaarsuvius and not Haley? I don't think evil dragons are family-lovers, and the sole reason I could come up with for an evil dragon to chase someone who killed her son is to get his treasure back: Haley was much more eager to put her hands on the hoard...
the Giant took us by surprise by throwing in a character who none of us expected, demonstrating to be a master o storytelling. I can't believe he will fall in the overabused clichè "I help you to defeat your foe, so I earn your respect": for a moment I thought that now Qarr will help V to survive the encounter and the elf will threat him better and listen to him. But...no, it's too banal for the Giant...
assuming that in this strip Rich payed respect to realism, a BIG black dragon coming ashore from the sea would have been visible at the distance of about 50 meters from the shore, as his massive body could not be entirely kept underwater: so, IMHO, this is not a dragon, but some polymorphed creature, that swam underwater to the shore and then, seeing that V was in combat, choose another, more frightening form; which leads me to the next point...
I too think the dragon is good: he asked V to cast Disintegrate once more, and as V was keen on disintegrate Qaar, the dragon could be wishing this end for the imp too. So he could be some sort of V's ally, maybe his famous consort...

Hm, that sounds quite likely actually. There are so many theories flying around right now...

[SPoD]

this dragon has a lot of information about V: she (assuming it's the mother) knows V's name, knows that the elf killed her son with Disintegrate, knows where to find V; how could she have gathered so many facts? Magic, of course, makes the difference, but why chase Vaarsuvius and not Haley? I don't think evil dragons are family-lovers, and the sole reason I could come up with for an evil dragon to chase someone who killed her son is to get his treasure back: Haley was much more eager to put her hands on the hoard...

Ah, but the Giant is fond of pointing out that evil people can still love their friends and family (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html).

[busterswd]

Throwing in another guess, though I think the dragon's mother seems pretty likely:

Representative of Tiamat come to cut a deal with V.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well, that was unexpected! I thought Qarr might have another demon/devil buddy he held a gambling marker on. A black dragon? Possibly related to the one V killed way back in the day? (Or possibly not.) That was totally out of the blue!

[Kish]

assuming that in this strip Rich payed respect to realism, a BIG black dragon coming ashore from the sea would have been visible at the distance of about 50 meters from the shore, as his massive body could not be entirely kept underwater:
Qarr saw the dragon, and Vaarsuvius wasn't looking, remember?

My prediction: It's one of the parents of the black dragon Vaarsuvius killed. S/he is really angry over that (probably my biggest problem with your theory is that it hinges on all black dragons being as incapable of caring as Xykon). Vaarsuvius is in big trouble.

Your theory doesn't explain the dragon being black. If someone good was choosing a dragon form to use to threaten an imp, a gold dragon would be the obvious choice. Of all the colors a dragon could be, black serves only to recall the dragon Vaarsuvius killed earlier; for this dragon to have nothing to do with that dragon would fall on the wrong side of "Rich is playing a kind of mind game that he really doesn't play."

If Vaarsuvius can cast Disintegrate five times per day, s/he is a lot more powerful than previously demonstrated (four sixth-level spells per day is already more than previously shown), which makes the "say Disintegrate again" most likely a taunt directed at the fact that Vaarsuvius is in a very bad situation to be minus all his/her highest level spell slots.

[CallingCtulhu]

I too think the dragon is good: he asked V to cast Disintegrate once more, and as V was keen on disintegrate Qaar, the dragon could be wishing this end for the imp too. So he could be some sort of V's ally, maybe his famous consort...[/LIST]

Except It's scales weren't all shiny. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html)

[HOLEkevin]

Actually, I think the word Vaarsuvius may be searching for here is "Teleport."

[SPoD]

Actually, I think the word Vaarsuvius may be searching for here is "Teleport."

V can't teleport; Conjuration is one of his/her barred schools.

[otakuryoga]

V needs some Bat-Dragon repellant, stat! :smalltongue:

actually i was thinking more along the lines of a fresh set of underwear.....

[Adeptus]

Oops, mommy's here.

If you disintegrate a "young adult", you can expect the parent(s) to come seeking revenge, I think.

Poor V is not very sane these days. Casting disintegrate at an imp where magic missiles would serve much better.

[weez]

"...You have a deal"

Cheers,

[RebelRogue]

This I why I love this strip. Even though I personally figured out V would be way too smart to make deals with a devil, The Giant still managed to surprise me wholly and fully by the appearance of the dragon.

If it actually is the previous dragon's mother, that would put its age to 51-100 [age range of the young adult] + 51-800 [age range from young adult to very old; the female dragon fertilty range given in the Draconomicon] = 102-900 [At least adult, max Ancient]. This is consistent with the appearant Huge size. This means its caster level is between 3rd and 11th, so it's not at all implausible that it has access to powerful scrying magic. I still like the Oracle theory, though.

[Cicciograna]

Qarr saw the dragon, and Vaarsuvius wasn't looking, remember?
Panel 2: V's looking right, aiming ofr Qarr.
Panel 3: Qarr dodges Disintegrate and V looks left; Qarr notices the dragon and begins telling V about he; time passed: about 6 seconds.
Panel 4: Qarr lies on the ground, and we hear the "Sploosh", which means the the bulk of the dragon has emerged from water; time passed: about 12 seconds. The action is so fast that it's highly unlikely that the dragon could swim underwater so fast and emerge unseen by V in panel 3: if you are on a beach and there's a submarine coming ashore, you'll see it when it's still far from the shore.


(probably my biggest problem with your theory is that it hinges on all black dragons being as incapable of caring as Xykon).

True, but knowing chaotic evil monsters, chanches are very high that black dragons ARE, in fact, uncaring.

Anyway, I don't pretend to solve the problem: I just proposed a different prospective. Rich is, indeed, a master of storytelling...

[RebelRogue]

If you disintegrate a "young adult", you can expect the parent(s) to come seeking revenge, I think.
With Chaotic Evil dragons, it's not so certain, but not implausible either.

[Adeptus]

With Chaotic Evil dragons, it's not so certain, but not implausible either.

I think Rich has made his views on alignment pretty clear. Even evil types still care for family and friends. They just aren't nice people in general.

[derfenrirwolv]

assuming that in this strip Rich payed respect to realism, a BIG black dragon coming ashore from the sea would have been visible at the distance of about 50 meters from the shore, as his massive body could not be entirely kept underwater so, IMHO, this is not a dragon, but some polymorphed creature, that swam underwater to the shore and then, seeing that V was in combat, choose another, more frightening form; which leads me to the next point...

Though i dare risk playing o cthul.....

You find that an unknown creature polymorphed into a black dragon appearing on shore and just happening to randomly ask V (by name) to say disintigrate has nothing to do with the previous black dragon that was disintigrated

is more likely than...

The water on the island being more than 10 feet deep untill you're relitively close to shore? A human is 6 feet tall. They're less than a foot tall when swimming. A dragon swimming only takes up 5, mayby 10 feet tops.





I don't think it IS, but it could be an illusion. Higher level illusions can add tactile sensation. Quaar DID say he had some levels of sorcerer, but i find it more likely that the important client "flying in in

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

Was the dragon. It also wouldn't surprise me if, as a dragon, she got to ask more than one question or got the "Tiamat employee" discount (or the, you are snack sized to the angry momma dragon discount)

[Adeptus]

-sorry, double post-

[magic9mushroom]

Qarr saw the dragon, and Vaarsuvius wasn't looking, remember?

My prediction: It's one of the parents of the black dragon Vaarsuvius killed. S/he is really angry over that (probably my biggest problem with your theory is that it hinges on all black dragons being as incapable of caring as Xykon). Vaarsuvius is in big trouble. Also, if Vaarsuvius can cast Disintegrate five times per day, s/he is a lot more powerful than previously demonstrated (four sixth-level spells per day is already more than previously shown), which makes the "say Disintegrate again" most likely a taunt directed at the fact that Vaarsuvius is in a very bad situation to be minus all his/her highest level spell slots.

Actually, it's possible that she does have another Disintegrate. 14th level is a near certainty by now, so that's 3 base. Given her headband, and 19 Int, it's likely that she has a bonus spell/day from that. And we still don't know her speciality, it's likely Evocation, sure, but not guaranteed. That's 5. And even if she doesn't have one of those, she could have prepared Disintegrate in a 7th level spot.

[Ara]

"...You have a deal"

Cheers,

"You can join me"
"I will join you"





"Crap!! A dragon.. again"

[Kish]

Panel 2: V's looking right, aiming ofr Qarr.
Panel 3: Qarr dodges Disintegrate and V looks left; Qarr notices the dragon and begins telling V about he; time passed: about 6 seconds.
Panel 4: Qarr lies on the ground, and we hear the "Sploosh", which means the the bulk of the dragon has emerged from water; time passed: about 12 seconds. The action is so fast that it's highly unlikely that the dragon could swim underwater so fast and emerge unseen by V in panel 3: if you are on a beach and there's a submarine coming ashore, you'll see it when it's still far from the shore.

A dragon is not a submarine, and even if it was, how would Vaarsuvius see it behind him/her? And why would someone good who wanted to intimidate an imp assume the form of a black dragon ("coincidentally," the same color as the dragon Vaarsuvius killed earlier)? Why not a gold dragon?


True, but knowing chaotic evil monsters, chanches are very high that black dragons ARE, in fact, uncaring.
Like Redcloak, you mean?

(Yes, I know he's Lawful, not Chaotic. I hope you're not going to suggest that Chaotic Evil is more evil than Lawful Evil.) Xykon and Nale are exceptionally twisted and warped, even by the standards of the other evil characters we've seen in the comic. To suggest that an entire species is comparable to them...well, let's just say I doubt Rich would support that line of argument.


Actually, it's possible that she does have another Disintegrate. 14th level is a near certainty by now, so that's 3 base. Given her headband, and 19 Int, it's likely that she has a bonus spell/day from that. And we still don't know her speciality,

Yes, we do. Those of us who read OtOtPCs, anyway.

[banjo1985]

A very large black dragon...not top of my list of expected outcomes to that conversation I must admit. Still, this could be interesting.

[Pandabear]

oooh boy.. This is the time where you start looking for the Restore button and continue from a previous Save...

[Elfanatic]

What the...

Every so often, Rich does something to remind me why I read this strip. Once per page, on average.

That's a big dragon...

Quoted for truth.

[Kaytara]

Whoa. :smalleek: Epic! Keep the fast updates coming, please!

That was.. unexpected.

While it could easily be a relative of the dragon V smoked earlier, I don't think it is. Even if the dragon had found of V's name somehow, he'd probably address V with "elf" or "wizard" or something similar in that case. Rather, the "Vaarsuvius" and especially the "for me" seems to heavily imply that they already know each other.
I'll admit that V's mate wildshaped/polymorphed into a dragon was the first thing I thought of, too, except that would probably mean that V's mate is Epic-level, which seems unlikely for plot purposes...
Besides, this is clearly set up to be a challenging encounter. Vaarsuvius has just rather foolishly expended FOUR Disintegrate spells on an enemy that had kept dodging them. I really have to wonder if there wasn't a more efficient way to get rid of him.

All things considered, this is probably a relative of that dragon after all. They are the same colour, with the same wings, claws, and speech bubble type. The only differences - the horns and eyes - could easily be individual traits.

It's also interesting that one of V's reasons not to seek out devilish alliance is apparently that he wants to solve the problem by himself, without outside help, or not solve it at all. Considering what is at stake here, this is definitely a point for the "V cares more about his own self-esteem than about Haley" camp.

[Taekwondodo]

I don't know, I get the feeling that the dragon really knows V, properly. Of course we shan't know the answer till Rich posts the next comic (unless he scips to another group which is probably not v. likely at the moment as we have not been with V for very long).:smallconfused:

I think V started pausing as Quarr was still trying to warn her even when she had hit him with disinterate, and the spink was the drop hitting V's head.

[neoseph7]

That doesn't at all seem like a step in a different direction than leading to the revival of Roy. It does appear (however) to lead to Varsuvius needing to be revived. Ironic, since it was V who suggested having someone killed so that they could get a message to Roy. To be V isn't lawful (or entirely good for that matter).

At the least this should stop people from posting how chaotic evil V is.

[pendell]

GREAT LEAPING MOUNDS OF HORROR! That was unexpected. And very, very scary. I nearly jumped out of my seat.

*Applause* Well played, sir.

Still, I hope there's some explanation coming in the next few strips, otherwise I'm throwing the "dragon ex machina" flag.

The most plausible reason is that this is the relative of the dragon V killed earlier. Which goes against much of what earlier mythology says about dragons, since they didn't love each other at all. 'Greedy as a dragon' is a proverb. The reason (in old stories) why you never found more than one at a time was because they were immensely territorial, immensely greedy, and immensely ruthless. They didn't band together, and they had no more love for their own than a real-life snake does.

Still, those other mythos don't have dragons learning languages from their mothers, either, so clearly we have some original storytelling rather than a straight retelling of the myth. A subversion, maybe.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aristeidis]

Well, correct me if I am wrong but from my knowledge of dnd so far, I know that dragons are fiercely territorial and throw away their offspring the moment they become capable of taking care of themselves. But even the young leave willingly to make their own hoard of treasure. Also, it is not entirely rare that the child goes against it's parents to win their treasure. Remember that we are talking about man-eating giant lizards with bad attitudes.
All these meaning that dragons don't have the same "family values" that certain (and very few I might add) percentage of the human race does.
Anthropomorphism is a Greek word from άνθρωπος (human) and μορφή (image), that means viewing something strictly from the human perspective. Don't be a victim to it! Maybe the mother doesn't care at all. Maybe her only concern is that her son owed her money!

Nice comic by the way.
PS. It hurts to see a fellow wizard miss so many times with high level spells! :eek: (there's no crying emoticon !!!)

[Cicciograna]

And why would someone good who wanted to intimidate an imp assume the form of a black dragon ("coincidentally," the same color as the dragon Vaarsuvius killed earlier)? Why not a gold dragon?

This is a good point, actually.



Like Redcloak, you mean?

(Yes, I know he's Lawful, not Chaotic. I hope you're not going to suggest that Chaotic Evil is more evil than Lawful Evil.)

Not more Evil. More caring for social structures, be these families or racial groups...yes. That's what "Lawful" implies.



Xykon and Nale are exceptionally twisted and warped, even by the standards of the other evil characters we've seen in the comic. To suggest that an entire species is comparable to them...well, let's just say I doubt Rich would support that line of argument.

And why? Why should Chaotic Evil monsters, especially an old black dragon, be less twisted and warped than Xykon and Nale? Let's say I'm a DM, and I throw an Illithid against my players: should I restrain its desire to see my players fall under his mind flay, suffer agonizing pains and then die of a horrible death? Do you think that sucking out a brain from a living creature is a tender act, or at least less twisted and warped than Nale and Xykon's deeds? Isn't it a widespread convinction that few races are less Evil than Illithids?
And then, where is all this wickedness in the black dragon? In the lack of care for its offspring? Then why isn't the Gray Render Evil? Or, for example, all the animals that lay eggs and leave them alone, such as turtles? If the lack of care for offspring is such widespread in animals, it doesn't surprise me if a black dragon doesn't mind its son: in my opinions, it's the least...

[factotum]

Well, that was unexpected! I thought Qarr might have another demon/devil buddy he held a gambling marker on. A black dragon? Possibly related to the one V killed way back in the day? (Or possibly not.) That was totally out of the blue!

If that was the case, why would Qarr have tried to warn V about the danger?

[diner coffee]

GREAT LEAPING MOUNDS OF HORROR! That was unexpected. And very, very scary. I nearly jumped out of my seat.

*Applause* Well played, sir.

Still, I hope there's some explanation coming in the next few strips, otherwise I'm throwing the "dragon ex machina" flag.

The most plausible reason is that this is the relative of the dragon V killed earlier. Which goes against much of what earlier mythology says about dragons, since they didn't love each other at all. 'Greedy as a dragon' is a proverb. The reason (in old stories) why you never found more than one at a time was because they were immensely territorial, immensely greedy, and immensely ruthless. They didn't band together, and they had no more love for their own than a real-life snake does.

Still, those other mythos don't have dragons learning languages from their mothers, either, so clearly we have some original storytelling rather than a straight retelling of the myth. A subversion, maybe.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


I don't know. The mother of the dragon V killed cared enough to make him learn Lizard. That's like signing your kids up for soccer or piano lessons: possibly misguided, but usually well-intentioned. I see it as a sign that mama cared.

[williambgns]

What if we are looking at this all wrong. How about two alternatives:

1.) The dragon is an illusion cast by the imp as part of the effort to entice V. "Join me and i will show you power of the dark side"

2.) Perhaps the imp summoned the dragon (water troll, big scary demon) and was able to communicate brief instructions with another spell.

[pendell]

Anthropomorphism is a Greek word from άνθρωπος (human) and μορφή (image), that means viewing something strictly from the human perspective.


But it seems like every creature in OOTS suffers from this. For better or for worse, it seems that the Giant 'humanizes' every sapient non-human creature in the story. 'Goblins' aren't Tolkien's chaotic evil demons incarnate -- they're humans with green skin and fangs. 'Dragons' aren't lizard-creatures with an insatiable lust for treasure -- they learn foreign languages, they read magazines.

I get a definite late-21st century vibe of 'everybody's good, and everybody's equal, even though we look different'. Which means everybody's human.

That's either a sharply needed correction to the sometimes seemingly ethnocentric tone of traditional high fantasy, or an AfterSchool Special Kumbaya platitude, depending on your point of view. Perhaps it's both.

I don't know whether that's a storytelling asset or defect, but there's very little sense in these stories that the non-human sapients are *different* at all from human beings. That's something Lewis did well in his space trilogy. In 'Out of the Silent Planet', his martians are intelligent, loving, kind , but definitely not human. They are entirely *different* from humans, literally too good to live in our world.

Likewise, this is something Terry Pratchett did well also. His elves -- unlike Tolkien's elves -- are not immortal humans. They are *different* on a fundamental level. They aren't evil. They aren't good. They don't fit on any human scale at all. They just are. Love them or hate them, no one is unchanged from the experience of encountering them.

Reading the story, I just don't encounter this feeling of 'difference'. By any measure, the creatures we encounter are entirely anthromorphized, made into humans. And if it were a real world, I would say this is dangerous mirror-imaging, projecting our thoughts and assumptions onto other people who don't necessarily share them. Lord knows there have been plenty of mistakes along those lines made in the real world.

Still .. this isn't Lewis' story, or Pratchett's story. This is Burlew's story, and a gem in its own right. I point out this difficulty, but I certainly hope Rich Burlew doesn't try to change the story in any way based on what I've said. Because for better or for worse the tone of the story is firmly set, and I don't think it could be changed for the better by trying to take any of what I said above into account. For better or worse it is what it is. I think Rich Burlew is an excellent comedic writer, a genius in his own right, and he's far better off telling his own story than trying to imitate someone else's style.

So let the goblins be green-skinned humans and the dragons be humans with four legs and teeth. It may not be the story the way *I* would tell it ... but no one wants to read *my* story. So I hope Rich tells it his way. I suspect I will enjoy it. Especially now that the updates are more frequent.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ted The Bug]

The dragon could be the relative of the young dragon V killed long time ago.

OR (but maybe a bit unlikely)

Its Kubota in his true dragon form. The "evidence" would be: the dragon came from the sea that Kubotas remains fell into, why just not fly?
I like that theory...it actually makes sense AND doesn't involve a fairly minor element of the plot from a while back.

[Marlowe]

Well I was NOT expecting a Maleficent cameo.

In other news, Qarr's dead.

I spelled that wrong didn't I? :smallfrown:

[bluedolphin359]

Does anyone else think that Qarr looks like he is about to enter another trance? Everything except his mouth (and a few bruises) is in the same position as in the last summoning trance we saw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

[Glome]

I don't buy the idea that the dragon is the mother. I just don't see how a dragon as old as the one V. killed would still be living with its mother instead of collecting its own horde.

Most likely explanation is that the dragon is the mate of the one V. killed. The dragon discovered that V. was the one who killed her mate, and thus tracked V. down hoping to both get revenge and more importantly get her treasure back.

The dragon probably doesn't even know the rest of the OOTS exist, and couldn't track down Haley or Belkar down even if she did because of the Cloister spell.

[Kaytara]

The dragon is almost certainly a relative of the young adult black one. There are various clues.

1) The obvious similarity in appearance, up to and including the speech bubble.

2) In 188 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), we learn that the starmetal was brought to the cave by an older dragon, one that is at least a century old, rather than the young adult V defeated.

3) This is consistent with the earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html) mention of a dragon mom who cared enough to teach the dragon lizard.

4) Furthermore, in 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), the Oracle mentions "an important client flying in" - which a centuries-old winged dragon would be - and that he doesn't want "a dead mammal to screw it up", implying that said client would be able to see Roy's ghost. This can easily be an angry mom dragon seeking to find the wizard who smoked her baby.

I call that the next comic will have the dragon explaining how she found V, with a flashback panel showing the Oracle being a lot more helpful to a draconic client by giving a satisfactory answer. :)

Something like
Dragon: "Here is the gold. Now to my question. My precious baby-"
Oracle: "...was killed with two Disintegrate spells by a currently 14th level purple-haired elf wizard by the name of Vaarsuvius who is currently on a ship in the middle of a fleeing Azurite fleet but will be leaving it in 15 days to occupy an island 11 miles from the coast and proceed to study spells there, alone, with the exception of an inconsequential little imp. Anything else?"

[Winged One]

Well I was NOT expecting a Maleficent cameo.
:smallbiggrin:


In other news, Qarr's dead.

I spelled that wrong didn't I?:smallfrown:

Yeah. It's spelled U-N-C-O-N-S-C-I-O-U-S, not D-E-A-D. He'd be dust if he'd been killed by Disintegrate.

[derfenrirwolv]

Momma dragon: Who killed my son?

Oracle: The elven wizard Varsuvious

Momma dragon: where and when can i find him alone and vulnerable?

Oracle: I'm sorry, one question per customer

Momma dragon: Come on, we're both servants of the great dragon mother here.

Oracle: On a tiny island on the southern ocean


Momma dragon. *opens mouth to roughly the oracles height*

Oracle: *gulps* 15 degrees 45 minutes 12 seconds south by 45 degress 2 minutes 48 seconds west!

[Tundar]

I spy with my little eye...

...something that begins with a D

[Kish]

I like that theory...it actually makes sense AND doesn't involve a fairly minor element of the plot from a while back.
No it doesn't make sense. A random evil Azure City nobleman who we saw die is actually a black dragon? (Not even a blue one...?) And instead of involving a fairly minor element of the plot from a while back, it would be completely out of nowhere.

[Nevitan]

That was very good, though it did bring up some questions 0_o

[Darius Midnite]

Haha! Epic. :smallbiggrin:

[Flabbicus]

It's great to finally meet Vaarsuvius's spouse.

[shadowfox]

So far, I find the whole "mother dragon" and "V's mate" as the two most reasonable theories. Both the younger black dragon and Kubota were turned into dust...

You could argue, however, that they were raised/resurrected. Well, the younger black dragon wouldn't be so large in that case, Kubota would have made some "dramatic" entrance when Elan was telling the "tale" of his death, and start spouting nonsense about Elan lying (followed by a ninja attack when he leaves the scene).

Alternatively, it could possibly just be a black dragon that V has encountered in the past.

[Blaznak]

Oooh! Confrontation-y!

[Airenus]

Order of the stick script 188
V: The starmetal was apparently enshrined here well over a century ago, while this dragon was only a young one.

I think this statement says a lot.

[Airenus]

Actually i think script 188 answers all our questions.

[Mauve Shirt]

Wow. That was completely unexpected. :smallbiggrin:

[Bilgore]

Let's face it. NO ONE saw this coming.

I bet Elan did.

But since V pareted ways with the rest of the group, Elan is not there to sound the "dun dun DUUNNN!" needed.

[eras10]

Hey Rich,

Now this was a hell of a good comic.

This is the second time I've complimented you. This is no disparagement of your work, but I'm rarely completely surprised by OOTS events. But this one was a complete surprise. That's impressive. *and* it was a legitimately menacing moment.

Good work.

Oh, and whomever was speculating that dragon is good guy / friend of V -

"say disintegrate one more time, for me" is not some sort of romantic statement. It's pure menace. It's "Boy, it's ironic to hear you try to sound powerful, as I am back to eat your face."

[Ghost_Dash]

Okay, I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here.

The black dragon? It might be related to the dragon V disintegrated back in #186. There's no way to be sure. But I doubt it's back to revenge it's sibling/offspring. From what I've read about dragons, they are usually way too competitive to form any strong family bonds. I don't think they'd care if one of their own got bumped off.

They might do it to get back the hoard that the adventurers stole though. Or at least something in it. But what did the group get from that haul that would warrant such attention. Certainly not Roy's little magic bag. It might be something we haven't seen yet.

Still, it knows V's name. That's never a good thing. But it could have gotten that from any number of ways, magic being the least of them.

I was going to suggest that maybe the dragon was a product of V's mind having snapped, but the fact that Qarr saw the dragon first kinda nips that idea in the bud.

I don't think this is V's "moment of ascension" so to speak. Not Qarr, because he's just an imp and with no real power to speak off, and probably not the dragon either, because any dragon who knows the secret to ultimate cosmic power wouldn't share that with anyone else.

And Kubota? He's just what he appeared to be: a (now very dead) human NPC. His role is played out, and good riddance!! What an ass. Still, we loved to hate him.

As to WHY the dragon shows up right now: Not a clue.

[Kaytara]

I bet Elan did.

But since V pareted ways with the rest of the group, Elan is not there to sound the "dun dun DUUNNN!" needed.

Naaah. XD Apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Elan's drama radar has some range, even if Elan doesn't even know what's setting it off. XD

[herrhauptmann]

I'm sure it's been said, but I'd really like to see Elan pop up there with a good old dramatic cue: "Dun dun dunnn!"

edit: I support the theory that this is a relative of dragon with the starmetal. It obviously isn't the same one, size is much larger, and the shape of its horns is different.
And yeah, that's probably the dragon that the oracle was referring to. I'm willing to bet he was a lot less snarky with his answers than normal.

[MorhgorRB]

I'm sure it's been said, but I'd really like to see Elan pop up there with a good old dramatic cue: "Dun dun dunnn!"

edit: I support the theory that this is a relative of dragon with the starmetal. It obviously isn't the same one, size is much larger, and the shape of its horns is different.
And yeah, that's probably the dragon that the oracle was referring to. I'm willing to bet he was a lot less snarky with his answers than normal.

Don't say that! We'll end up with a cliffhanger! ...or maybe it'll jump to Elan for one panel?

[Shadowcaller]

No it doesn't make sense. A random evil Azure City nobleman who we saw die is actually a black dragon? (Not even a blue one...?) And instead of involving a fairly minor element of the plot from a while back, it would be completely out of nowhere.

Hehe, yeah it is pretty unlikely since Kubota would have acted a bit different if this was the case.

Right now I think the "dragon from V's past" theory is mosty likely.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

You know what? I just decided that a even more interesting possibility (which doesn't really contradict anything established as far as I can tell) would be

for the dragon to be good.

See, if it is the mother of the one V previously encountered, it had a "good neighborhood" policy to other reptiles at the very least - not really an evil trait, come to think of it.

And this "say it one more time for me" line is actually pretty ambiguous. It may easily be due to a desire for revenge not against Vaarsuvius, but rather against Qarr, who after all is anything but safe company for anyone.

For all we know, the dragon could be hunting Qarr for a while and had hidden under water in order to replenish its own spells. And its next line could well be "I've been meaning to chastise this agent of Evil for a while now, but the need for rest and the lack of a supporting group hinder me quite a lot" or something to that effect, less-than-subtly hinting to V how he/she is playing with hir luck and how unwise it was to alienate all hir allies and friends.

As added benefits, it would also be a subversion of the dragon color-alignment matching (which is, come to think of it, quite ridiculous) as well as a delightful opportunity of proving Miko wrong in approving the Order's behavior in this particular past stance.

What a masterfully ambiguous strip! :)

I think that you're right, and that made me think of something:
What alignment is V right now?

Because I'm thinking Lawful Neutral, or maybe True Neutral. (s)he's not going our of h is/er way to be evil, but c'mon, killing somebody without a fair trial JUST to help recover party members? lying to paladins? leaving your party to try to accomplish things on your own, despite knowing that they need you? These are not things that scream "Good".

I think that this dragon will be key to whether or not V goes Evil or Good.

[Gedrean]

Alright, a reference to strip #186. And I'm impressed at how little I saw that coming. I mean, the leadup dialogue was good - but I didn't see DRAGON... especially not mama. LOL.

[T-O-E]

At first I thought Qaar had brought the dragon's soul from Baator/9 hells in order to trick V into entering an alliance.
But then I read the forums. Yeah, it's probably a relative.

[daggaz]

The action is so fast that it's highly unlikely that the dragon could swim underwater so fast and emerge unseen by V in panel 3: if you are on a beach and there's a submarine coming ashore, you'll see it when it's still far from the shore.


LOL! And I assume you are basing this off of your own vast and personal experience in detecting submarines off the coast of Italy? Somebody else held this theory (I love when my players try to argue this way in my games, makes it all the more fun to shoot them down), saying you would obviously see such a big dragon when it was at least 50 meters out from the beach, due to its size.

Did it ever occur to you that the "beach" might be a narrow strip of sand or rock, which extends only a short distance underwater to an immediate drop off that extends all the way to the bottom of the ocean? This is common enough in volcanic islands on earth (hawaii, the canaries, to name two that I have personally scuba dived from), let alone the fact that this is a fantasy setting...

[Trixie]

Let's say I'm a DM, and I throw an Illithid against my players: should I restrain its desire to see my players fall under his mind flay, suffer agonizing pains and then die of a horrible death? Do you think that sucking out a brain from a living creature is a tender act, or at least less twisted and warped than Nale and Xykon's deeds?

That's precisely what animals do, and yet, somehow they are not classified as 'evil' :smallamused:


Isn't it a widespread convinction that few races are less Evil than Illithids?

I'd look at the whole slavery thing they have going on, not the way they eat.

[whatchamacallit]

The dragon V killed was a teenager, odds are this is a relative or parent looking for revenge. My money is one the fact its been following her for a great long while, biding the time until the elf was alone and vulnerable.

[Gedrean]

Okay, I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here.

The black dragon? It might be related to the dragon V disintegrated back in #186. There's no way to be sure. But I doubt it's back to revenge it's sibling/offspring. From what I've read about dragons, they are usually way too competitive to form any strong family bonds. I don't think they'd care if one of their own got bumped off.

It is obviously related. 1: V used Disintegrate to kill dragon A. 2: V used Disintegrate on Qarr. 3: Dragon shows up and says "Say disintegrate one more time, for me".

Too much coincidence. It's clearly the dragon from #183-188 era.

Oh, and it's back to get its gold back. Because it's pissed off about its gold being stolen and the offspring being killed by Disintegrate... just another thing, y'know?

Either that or it's the same dragon superaged. No reason why. Bringing stuff back from the dead?

[Rotipher]

I definitely side with the "young dragon's Mama, tipped off by Oracle and out for revenge" theory. If psychotically-CE Belkar can care about Mr. Scruffy, a black dragon can definitely care about her own child: if it was the treasure she valued instead, she'd surely have asked the Oracle where to find that (and wound up searching the wreckage of the inn), rather than her kid's killer.

What I want to know is, could the Oracle dream up some convoluted way to blame V's present predicament on Belkar? Because if so, the elf might just be a goner! :smallwink:

[Selene]

Like Redcloak, you mean?

I'm not disagreeing with your general point, but you're not suggesting Redcloak cared about his family, are you? SoD suggests otherwise to me.


What I want to know is, could the Oracle dream up some convoluted way to blame V's present predicament on Belkar? Because if so, the elf might just be a goner! :smallwink:

Even if he can't, someone here in the forums will.

[Furin_Mirado]

I subscribe to the idea that the dragon is the previous dragon's mother. This dragon knows V's name so it's definitely not a random dragon. The dragon is bigger than the one V killed and has the wrong colored eyes, so it can't be the old dragon back from the dead for revenge. Plus we know that the previous dragon's mother had him learn lizard which shows some amount of care for her offspring.

My guess is that the mother found her son dead and started the task of tracking down his killer. Any number of spells would reveal V's name and location so it was just a matter of finding V and waiting until an opportune moment to present itself.

One last thing to note, it took two disintegrates to kill the previous dragon and this one is larger. One disintegrate won't even half-kill this one, assuming the dragon makes its save. For story purposes, I'm betting that Qarr will have some information to give that will help V survive. It's either that or we find out that V goes to the same afterlife as Roy and they have a nice conversation, heh.

[hamishspence]

"this one's for you, Mom"

SOD spoilers
I see the point of SOD being that Redcloak really does love his brother, even if they bicker, which is why him killing Right Eye is so hard for him and why we see him crying afterward.

[Little Goblin]

Maybe its one of Elans illusions :elan:

[Shadowcaller]

Maybe its one of Elans illusions :elan:

That... maybe if the rules allow it (I'm not to sure about the rules for major image, unless Elan have learned some new illusion spell).

[Ikialev]

Saw that coming

[Lira]

Oh. My. God.

Excuse me. I have to go freak out now.

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! :smalleek:

EDIT: Okay, I'm calm now. Excellent comic. :smallbiggrin:
My first thought when I saw the dragon was that it was the one V killed earlier, but it made some sort of deal with the forces of darkness to bring it back and it's getting it's revenge on V. Although, after seeing the theories here, I agree that a parent out for revenge sounds like a more reasonable theory.

[Quorothorn]

I'm not disagreeing with your general point, but you're not suggesting Redcloak cared about his family, are you? SoD suggests otherwise to me.

It's pretty darn clear that Redcloak cared for his family a great deal, actually. He just didn't care about them quite enough to put the last survivor of his family above what he thought was the 'greater good'.



Saw that coming

LIEZ!

[hamishspence]

Suggest editing- Spoiler, not Spoilers.

[Zevox]

:eek:

Well, that was totally unexpected. Well played, Giant.

Possible explanations:
1) This is the old Dragon V killed, who has been resurrected/had a clone waiting to take his soul in. Seems unlikely - who would resurrect him/prepare the clone, and why? Though it would explain the "disintegrate" crack.
2) This is the old Dragon's mother or father, out for revenge. Possible, though we'd need an explanation for how it found out V was the culprit.
3) This is the old Dragon's mate out for revenge. Possible, although he seemed a bit young for that, and again we'd need an explanation for how it found out V was the culprit.
4) This is the old Dragon's child out for revenge. Unlikely - even if he had a child, this Dragon seems to large, and therefore old, to be his.
5) Someone tossed out the theory that Kubota was secretly a Dragon. I'd say that's ridiculously unlikely myself, as if he was, he'd have been more capable of accomplishing his goals (such as, say, killing Kazumi, Daigo, and Elan back on the ship, rather than running away after leaving Therkla for dead to cover his ass). Plus we saw him reduced to ash, so he was definitely dead.
6) Someone suggested this may be V's mate? Again, seems really unlikely. Even if we assume V's mate could polymorph into a Dragon or is himself a Dragon, why the malicious-seeming "disintegrate" comment, and V's obviously horrified expression? And how did he find V? And why come to her now? I suppose this could all theoretically be explained, but it seems way too out-there to me.

I'd go with the guess that it's one of his parents myself. It seems to be the simplest explanation.

Zevox

[Niley]

...
WHAT.
THE.
HELL?!
Is that a frickin' Black Dragon?! What?! How did he get there?! What's happening to Rich?! So now he's pulling BD's out of nowhere?!

[Quorothorn]

Suggest editing- Spoiler, not Spoilers.

I know. >_> Would've taken care of it immediately, but my Internet connection betrayed me.

[moxproxy]

Also, the 4 words could all be Disintergrate >> V does cast it four times.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Although it opens up the whole "spells aren't spoken to anyone in particular"-discussion.

Fantastic strip! What a twist of events! :) Go Giant!

I support the theory that this is the mother of the lizard speaking dragon. And V might need help to get out of this one. Say, from a teleporting imp. Who just happens to be open for business.

And also, has everyone forgotten that Qarr got flicked into the water a couple of strips ago? He would have had plenty of time to discover, and even discuss tactics with, the dragon before calling on V again.

[Doug Lampert]

Panel 2: V's looking right, aiming ofr Qarr.
Panel 3: Qarr dodges Disintegrate and V looks left; Qarr notices the dragon and begins telling V about he; time passed: about 6 seconds.
Panel 4: Qarr lies on the ground, and we hear the "Sploosh", which means the the bulk of the dragon has emerged from water; time passed: about 12 seconds. The action is so fast that it's highly unlikely that the dragon could swim underwater so fast and emerge unseen by V in panel 3: if you are on a beach and there's a submarine coming ashore, you'll see it when it's still far from the shore.

Have you looked at a black dragon's swim speed and compared it to the local beach fall-off?

Black dragons are MUCH faster than a sub will move close in shore, especially if the dragon is double moving. And a huge dragon shouldn't actually need much depth to hide, not as much as even a fairly small sub.

[eilandesq]

A couple of thoughts:

--as V. is an evoker, he is a minimum of 14th level now with an intelligence of at least 22 to be able to throw four disintegrate spells in one day. He'd have to be 17th level (or have an intelligence of 30) to throw a fifth unless he has an item giving him more bonus spells;

--V shouldn't be helpless against that dragon, even without his disintegrates. It appears to be Huge, which would make it somewhere between Mature Adult (CR 14) and Ancient (CR 19). At the very least, given his normal spell selection, he should be able to escape unless he's one-shotted.

[Niley]

*pant* *pant* *pant*
Okay, I'm calm, I'm calm...

So, theories:
a) this dragon is related to the one V killed
b) this dragon is V's mate in dragon form (the "For me." line was spoken in kinda 'loving' tone)
c) this dragon is Aarindarius in dragon form (this 'say-it-for-me' could have been his method of teaching V pronounciation of the spell names. Just think about it.)

[One Skunk Todd]

So I wonder which one is "the Last Drip" and will V no longer be good-aligned after it hits the ground.

Also, it looks like the island slopes pretty steeply down under the water. The dragon seems to be standing on a slope and I reckon if it backed up to where its head was about where its back leg hits the water then the rest of its body could be completely submerged.

Edit: Also, for those who don't think a dragon can rise up silently out of the water, just watch Dragonslayer sometime. :)

[Doug Lampert]

What cracks me up is that even if someone did/will guess the words correctly, the forum response would be "not one of those crazy theories again" :smallbiggrin:

I'm confident that NOTHING V says in the next 100 or so strips will be 'those four words', or if they are he won't actually get ultimate arcane power from saying them, and it doesn't matter what he says or who he says it too. If Asmodeous himself appears next strip and explicitely offers V ultimate arcane power and V says "I accept your offer", those WON'T BE IT! Or if they are they'll have a very very delayed effect rather than causing Asmodeous to actually give V ultimate arcane power at that time.

The reason is that if V gets ultimate arcane power then one way or another V's story is over, hence this won't happen until it is time for the story to end. We have two gates to go and an enormous buildup, this story is not going to end in two strips with "and then a wizard did it". Ain't gonna happen.

One of the meanings of Ultimate is FINAL or LAST. Ultimate is the end, it comes at or after the climax. Asking if this is the four words every strip is like asking if this is Elan's happy ending every strip.

The particular reasons offered for why particular sets of four words are "THE FOUR WORDS" are insanely convoluted and mostly stupid, but even if there were a plausible set it probably wouldn't be it till there's a gate/fate of the world involved.

[B.I.T.T.]

:smalleek: Whoa...didn't see that coming. I'm looking forward to the next one.

Good comic.

[Kaytara]

2) This is the old Dragon's mother or father, out for revenge. Possible, though we'd need an explanation for how it found out V was the culprit.


Zevox, that is likely the case based on the fact that we DO have a possible explanation of how it found out V was the culprit. I posted about it a page or so back.

The dragon found out about V by visiting the local dragon-friendly kobold cleric.

In 572, the Oracle mentions "an important client flying in" and not wanting dead Roy to mess it up. This tells us that the client is flying (which a dragon would be), that the client is important (which a dragon who's over a century old would certainly be considered by the kobold oracle of a draconic deity) and that the client would be able to see Roy's ghost (which is entirely plausible for a powerful dragon).

[Zevox]

Zevox, that is likely the case based on the fact that we DO have a possible explanation of how it found out V was the culprit. I posted about it a page or so back.

The dragon found out about V by visiting the local dragon-friendly kobold cleric.

In 572, the Oracle mentions "an important client flying in" and not wanting dead Roy to mess it up. This tells us that the client is flying (which a dragon would be), that the client is important (which a dragon who's over a century old would certainly be considered by the kobold oracle of a draconic deity) and that the client would be able to see Roy's ghost (which is entirely plausible for a powerful dragon).
Possible, although I wouldn't take it for granted until we hear such from either the Dragon or the Oracle themselves.

Zevox

[Lunaya]

I just think it's interesting that the dragon knows V's name. Obviously, it's acquainted with hir somehow.

[Draz74]

Eric Greenhilt did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html)
You win the thread.


Naaah. XD Apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Elan's drama radar has some range, even if Elan doesn't even know what's setting it off. XD

No kidding. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)

[H. Zee]

:elan: "Dun dun DUN!"

That sound right there? That's the sound of the plot. Thickening.

I'm now very much looking forward to reading #627.

[Andre Fairchilde]

There's still a whole lot of V's backstory to find out. I believe the Giant mentioned in the books going back to meet V's spouse, etc.

The Black Dragon could be from the past, or as mentioned affiliated with the previous dragon V (and the party) defeated.

I've learned to have a lot less conjecture if I want to keep my own sanity.

Anxiously awaiting the next comic though.

[Mojique]

I bet it was the guardian of the starmetal

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html

Maybe. But how can the dragon know the name "Vaarsuvius"?

[hamishspence]

Could have been that client of the Oracle, that possibility has already been mentioned.

[Qov]

We know the entire comic is a finite story, with a planned ending, and I feel that it has passed the midpoint, that we are now beginning to narrow the scope and connect the various threads, rather than creating new ones. Assuming that, it is much more likely that a dragon that looks a lot, but not exactly, like one that V disintegrated earlier is related to that dragon than is a new character. I'm going with mother.

It's very clever of Rich to have given us the information that the slain dragon was a) a youth and b) tended by a loving mother in the form of jokes. The jokes both make the facts memorable and mask their expositionary nature. It goes right along with Rich, almost from strip one, introducing vital information in the form of throwaway jokes. Even the characters were surprised at the planning and continuity.

In strip 188 some people may be confused by the wording "The starmetal was apparently enshrined here well over a century ago, while this dragon was only a young adult." The comma is key. It's not saying that the starmetal was enshrined during the dragon's youth. It's contrasting the age of the shrine with the age of the dragon. The starmetal was enshrined before this dragon was born.

[Qov]

We know the entire comic is a finite story, with a planned ending, and I feel that it has passed the midpoint, that we are now beginning to narrow the scope and connect the various threads, rather than creating new ones. Assuming that, it is much more likely that a dragon that looks a lot, but not exactly, like one that V disintegrated earlier is related to that dragon than is a new character. I'm going with mother.

It's very clever of Rich to have given us the information that the slain dragon was a) a youth and b) tended by a loving mother in the form of jokes. The jokes both make the facts memorable and mask their expositionary nature. It goes right along with Rich, almost from strip one, introducing vital information in the form of throwaway jokes. Even the characters were surprised at the planning and continuity.

In strip 188 some people may be confused by the wording "The starmetal was apparently enshrined here well over a century ago, while this dragon was only a young adult." The comma is key. It's not saying that the starmetal was enshrined during the dragon's youth. It's contrasting the age of the shrine with the age of the dragon. The starmetal was enshrined before this dragon was born.

[Qov]

We know the entire comic is a finite story, with a planned ending, and I feel that it has passed the midpoint, that we are now beginning to narrow the scope and connect the various threads, rather than creating new ones. Assuming that, it is much more likely that a dragon that looks a lot, but not exactly, like one that V disintegrated earlier is related to that dragon than is a new character. I'm going with mother.

It's very clever of Rich to have given us the information that the slain dragon was a) a youth and b) tended by a loving mother in the form of jokes. The jokes both make the facts memorable and mask their expositionary nature. It goes right along with Rich, almost from strip one, introducing vital information in the form of throwaway jokes. Even the characters were surprised at the planning and continuity.

In strip 188 some people may be confused by the wording "The starmetal was apparently enshrined here well over a century ago, while this dragon was only a young adult." The comma is key. It's not saying that the starmetal was enshrined during the dragon's youth. It's contrasting the age of the shrine with the age of the dragon. The starmetal was enshrined before this dragon was born.

[Military Man]

Another nice twist by the giant, didn't see that coming :smallamused:

So just to recap our options are.....

1) the dragon is the same one/mother/sibling/other family relative of the one from the Star metal shrine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html).

=or=

2) Its an high level illusion or a cloaked character.

The fact that it knows V's name is what makes me think it could be an illusion, but than again the giant has know to throw us curves every so often.

[Animefunkmaster]

I had a small speculation that Qaar would summon something that V and Qaar would have to team up to take down... but this... I don't think I would have guessed this. I am not even sure if Qaar know's V's name.

[Qov]

We know the entire comic is a finite story, with a planned ending, and I feel that it has passed the midpoint, that we are now beginning to narrow the scope and connect the various threads, rather than creating new ones. Assuming that, it is much more likely that a dragon that looks a lot, but not exactly, like one that V disintegrated earlier is related to that dragon than is a new character. I'm going with mother.

It's very clever of Rich to have given us the information that the slain dragon was a) a youth and b) tended by a loving mother in the form of jokes. The jokes both make the facts memorable and mask their expositionary nature. It goes right along with Rich, almost from strip one, introducing vital information in the form of throwaway jokes. Even the characters were surprised at the planning and continuity.

In strip 188 some people may be confused by the wording "The starmetal was apparently enshrined here well over a century ago, while this dragon was only a young adult." The comma is key. It's not saying that the starmetal was enshrined during the dragon's youth. It's contrasting the age of the shrine with the age of the dragon. The starmetal was enshrined before this dragon was born.

[Z-dan]

OK, I've read the start of this thread and the end... and here's my 2cp:

a) this could be the previous dragon's parent: too obvious (though possible)
b) this dragon's an illusion- a complex illusion, and if set up by anyone it would be Qarr as incentive for V to accept the deal- also explains the strip's title of good to the last drip... and for the first time I feel like the 4 words could be 'now, about that deal...'
c) V's mate... I like that theory- polymorphing into a dragon is probably the quickest way to travel without teleporting, and the way the last line's said is very ambiguous
d) a random new dragon, possibly from V's history (dont know how much Origin covers...)
And if it is a new dragon, it could be another candidate for the 4 words to be spoken to, but I'm quite sure V knows how manipulative dragons can be

In fact, it could pretend to be any of the above as a trick, knowing what dragons are like...

EDIT: couple more points, V's name could be picked up through divination... and for the speculation regarding getting info from the oracle then remember only one question could be asked (has got me to speculating on who the important guest was though)

[Mr. Scaly]

I learned a lesson today.

"Never waste all your disintegrates on a measly little imp."

[Lerky]

nice comic. Glad to see the sudden burst of them:smallbiggrin:

[Raenir Salazar]

gah triple post! *shakes fist*

I think its fairly obvious the dragon is the mother of the dragon V killed.

And also while Dracomicon does say Black Dragons dont tend to care for their young too well doesn't mean this one doesn't.

[Lerky]

I don't know much but I know the two dragons look different. The artwork has majorly improved:smallbiggrin:
Dragon A (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html)
Dragon B (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0626.html)

[jidasfire]

I think a lot of people are assuming the dragon can't be the mother seeking revenge because evil dragons don't care about their young, but think about it this way. It doesn't need to be a loving relationship. Assume I'm an evil dictator, and some adventurers show up in my lair while I'm gone. They kill my guards and take my stuff. Now, I don't care about the dead guards as people, but I still need to exact revenge. Good help is hard to find, and it's just bad business to let people get away with crossing you like that.

While I think the threads of this dragon's coming have been lain subtly and very well, it still makes me sad, because this probably means V is going to need Qarr's help (though what an imp can do against a dragon I couldn't speculate), and this is what will drive V down the path of evil, even if it's slowly. Unlike most of the forumites, I'm not rooting for one of the heroes to become a villain and further break an already broken party. I also think the mage turning bad is really played out in fantasy, and hope V is less a cliche than that. What I would love to see is Qarr offer V his help, V consider accepting, then in a flash of brilliance, concoct a plan to beat the dragon on his own. This will lead V to stop thinking so one-dimensionally and begin healing the party. It's about as likely as anything I guess, so I'm not holding my breath.

[hamishspence]

Draconomicon- evil dragons care for their young up to a point, but do evict them once they get older. Remember that, according to Savage Species, evil creatures caring for their lovers/children/friends is normal- they don't behave in a very Evil fashion to everything, just to those they don't have a connection to.

Also, depends on the dragon- black dragons are less nurturing than blues and greens, for example.

[silversaraph]

I just noticed reading it the second time.... quarr actually tries to warn V after she disintegrates him.

Is quarr really just trying to trick V?

[Finwe]

V probably isn't quite as screwed as it may appear. Given his 4 disintegrates, we know that he's either level 14 with an int of 22+, or level 13 with an int of 30+. The first option seems more likely, so let's assume he's 14 with 22 int. As an evoker, he should have:

1 level 6 evocation slot
1 level 7 evocation slot
2 level 7 generic slots
4 level 5 generic slots
1 level 5 evocation slot


So he still has access to all of his most powerful spells, and a decent amount of higher level spells as well.

[Xesirin]

I'm reasonably certain that it's the same dragon, (raised) maybe the eye color could be explained by the fact that, despite having walked through a sphere of darkness, the cave itself is still very dark, and the eyes changed because of the reflection of light.

Or the dragon got more powerful and the eye color change reflects that.

Or the dragon got red eyes as part of Rich's art upgrade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), as it were.

The dragon's text struck me as menacing, me personally, maybe mocking up a past relationship. (One of repeated suggestion spells and disintegrations)

[David Argall]

1. this dragon has a lot of information about V: how could she have gathered so many facts?
The idea of the Oracle is rather far fetched, but it at least hangs together. Between payments, threats, and ties to Tiamat, the dragon could get the needed information.



but why chase Vaarsuvius and not Haley? I don't think evil dragons are family-lovers, and the sole reason I could come up with for an evil dragon to chase someone who killed her son is to get his treasure back: Haley was much more eager to put her hands on the hoard...
There is no reason the dragon can't have both motives. Maybe she plans to take out the entire party one by one, and right now Haley is "protected" by being in a major city which can obviously take out any annoying dragon who tries to attack it.


I can't believe he will fall in the overabused clichè "I help you to defeat your foe, so I earn your respect":
Cliches become so by being such powerful explainers of situations. Our writer may put his own spin on it, but recall here that the death of Therkla was very cliche.



3. assuming that in this strip Rich payed respect to realism,
Already a dubious assumption in a stick figure comic.



a BIG black dragon coming ashore from the sea would have been visible at the distance of about 50 meters from the shore, as his massive body could not be entirely kept underwater:
A very common D&D joke goes... DM: "You are on a flat, featureless plain that extends for miles with no cover whatsoever. A gigantic monster you should be able to spot from a mile away is attacking you from 10' away. It has surprised you..."
Strictly speaking, D&D rules do not forbid this. Just common sense and fear of player revolt.

And both drama and comedy feature people failing to notice the obvious on a regular basis. The point is rather a cliche.


4. I too think the dragon is good: he asked V to cast Disintegrate once more, and as V was keen on disintegrate Qaar, the dragon could be wishing this end for the imp too.
The dragon's speech is rather obviously of the same type as the big thug saying "You are out of bullets? ... Isn't that too bad?..." as he advances on the hero.



Possible explanations:
1) This is the old Dragon V killed, who has been resurrected/had a clone waiting to take his soul in.
As noted, this dragon is bigger and otherwise different, beside lacking any reasonable way for this to happen.


3) This is the old Dragon's mate out for revenge.
The dead dragon had a porn stash. While many husbands wouldn't mind having one, successfully hiding it from the wife is much less likely. So it was most unlikely any mate was around.



It's very clever of Rich to have given us the information that the slain dragon was a) a youth and b) tended by a loving mother in the form of jokes. The jokes both make the facts memorable and mask their expositionary nature. It goes right along with Rich, almost from strip one, introducing vital information in the form of throwaway jokes. Even the characters were surprised at the planning and continuity.
I suspect you are confusing cause and effect here. A more likely scenario would be ...
Writer: "Now I need something to threaten V here... How about a dragon? Naw, I used that already...Wait, could this be a relative of that dragon out for revenge? I did use that already too, but it fits, and I am not under any contract not to do something twice.
"So let's take a look at the old strip, and ...OK, the new dragon would be his mom, bigger, and.... That will do nicely..."

Our writer does a good deal of advance planning. I understand the final page of the story was set before the first page was written. But we also know substantial parts of the story can be changed as things develop. The inn scene was heavily rewritten almost on the spot. So the idea that the writer was already willing to commit to a dragon here over 400 strips ago is rather a stretch. The Oracle does show us our writer is willing to make such a commitment, but these are clearly labeled as such.
It is much easier to reverse-engineer something, and that is what has likely happened here.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

What I want to know is, could the Oracle dream up some convoluted way to blame V's present predicament on Belkar? Because if so, the elf might just be a goner! :smallwink:

Nah, Belkar caused the death of the oracle, and he was one of the choices.

[hamishspence]

on size, Draconomicon has, in the Black dragons section near end of book, a pic showing a rather large dragon flattened in the swamp, with an unsuspecting adventurer heading for the dragon's eggs.

Since the adventurer is stepping on the dragon's head as if it was a buried tree trunk, it showa that, given right conditions, black dragons are very good at taking advantage of water to hide.

The island might be of the kind to have deep water close offshore. Plus V was distracted and not looking in the right direction anyway.

[Salty]

Eric Greenhilt did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html)

AWESOME find. What, did you roll a nat 20 on a spot check? Maybe Eric got a level or 20 of diviner while waiting in the afterlife. Based on what he was doing, I wouldn't be surprised if the dragon ate V or Qaar. :smallbiggrin:

[pepazdepa]

Not sure if this has been brought up before in this thread, but hasn't just Vaarsuvius said the right four words (disintegrate) to the right being (imp) at the right time (arrival of the dragon) for all the wrong reasons (don't really know this idiom, so i will just shoot - killing the imp that wants to help) ?

[Doug Lampert]

Not sure if this has been brought up before in this thread, but hasn't just Vaarsuvius said the right four words (disintegrate) to the right being (imp) at the right time (arrival of the dragon) for all the wrong reasons (don't really know this idiom, so i will just shoot - killing the imp that wants to help) ?It's more than three pages into the thread, and V said four or more words in the comic. QED. It's been brought up.

And it's as silly as it was every previous time too.

[Mc. Lovin']

Since the dragon seemed to want to emphasise the disintegrate point, it is almost definitely related to the dragon V disintegrated ealier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html).

If you ask me, it's the same dragon, somehow.

True resurrection, maybe.

That dragon does not speak common, if I recall correctly.

[Dunesen]

First off, wonderful moment, and honest-to-God swerve. I was getting a bit weary during the Greysky battle, I thought the resolution was too neat and tidy, but this strip has definitely brought the series back into the realm of "must check for updates 20 times a day." Not just for the dragon's appearance, but also for V's speech about (s)he's not going side with evil so readily. That would have been such an obvious turn of events, so I'm glad it didn't happen.

*

I'm going to say that this is not when V's four words prophecy gets fulfilled. Not for the sake of contrariness alone (though honestly, hearing everyone try to tie this into it is getting annoying), but for the sake of storytelling. I don't think V's been pushed far enough to make any (figurative or literal) deal with the devil). (S)he hasn't fallen enough, hasn't been pushed enough. I can see how facing a black dragon would be life-threatening to a lone elf-wizard running out of high-level spells, but if Book 4 is supposed to focus on V (the way No Cure focused on Roy and War and XPs focused on Haley), I think we have a bit of a ways to go before a heel-turn is truly warranted.

Maybe it's because I've always seen V as being one of the "lesser" members of the party, story-wise. Apart from the polymorph episode (and the rivalry with Belkar, I suppose), when has V been the focus of the main drama? With the possible exception of Durkon, all the other members have had much more character building, more personal side-stories. Even Belkar has had more development, and he's been outed as a one-dimensional character by the strip itself!

Also, we're not yet at the cut-off point for Book 4. It's assumed there's another 40-50 pages until Roy gets raised (and possibly that the party gets reunited), the logical end point for print. If V gets ultimate arcane power and/or allies with the forces of darkness, what happens for the rest of the book? Haley's group can't do anything yet except get Roy's body (which doesn't sound like it will provide much drama), and Durkon and Elan are most likely on their way to Greysky City right now (assuming the urgency of the Loki-cleric's message drives Elan to focus more on Haley than V, and keeping in mind that Elan wasn't too worried about V leaving back in strip 599).

Someone else on the thread pointed out the idea that the dragon is after Qarr and in a similar predicament as V, running off by itself and trying to do everything single-handed, thus getting in over their head. While I doubt that's the case, I do think it's more likely this episode will have some moral for V other than "don't make deals with the devil." If Durkon and Elan are on their way to find V (contact from the cleric might lead them to find V and get hir to stop looking for Haley alone), then they'll help hir fight the dragon, and V learns a lesson about sticking with your allies.

Either that or V now consider themself useless and leaves the party. Or is that too cliched, the team-member leaving to go out on their own?

*

Also, I have to ask: if/when V gets ultimate arcane power, where the hell do they go from there? Would they really hang around with the Order? Or, more likely, would they try to stop Xykon themselves?

If I'm wrong and this is when the four words thread gets resolved, I expect V would strike out on hir own, and that would carry into the fifth book. Unless we get a quickie battle where Xykon still manages to defeat V (and what are the odds on that?) before this book's end.

*

And but so anyway, I think the dragon definitely is connected to the starmetal one, and they are here for revenge against V, and they probably are the client the Oracle alluded to recently.

But what could be interesting is if the dragon is not related to the starmetal dragon and is instead going after all of the Order because they're mixed up in the whole gates issue. Not that they're working for Xykon, but they're one of the other unknown sides of the story mentioned in strip 548.

But that's just a random possibility on my part.

[Rakim Avishot]

I'm assuming it is. I wonder who revived him, though?
It probably isn't. This one seems bigger than the one V killed. It's probably the mother of deceased (or, if you please, disintegrated) dragon (hereafter called MODD). Then again, it did know V's name, and seems to have a vendetta regarding "Disintegrate" spells. So, it could be MODD, or FDBDBBFPR (Formally Disintegrated Black Dragon Brought Back For Plot Reasons). Regardless, V will probably join w/Q to defeat it. For the right price of course........
By the way, I have only read until this post that I quoted, so if someone already said these things, please bear with me.

[Dunesen]

Suggest editing- Spoiler, not Spoilers.

What, V casts Suggestion on the dragon and learns some spoilers for the strip? :smalltongue: How does (s)he get ultimate arcane power that way?

"Ultimate arcane power. Give!"

Seems a bit weird for a command. Also, is it just me or does it seem weird that V will eventually say something confined to just four words?

[Rakim Avishot]

Let's face it. NO ONE saw this coming.

Yeah, even I didn't see this coming, and I've predicted most of this already, even though I didn't post the stuff. I know there are people who will say "no way you could've!", but I already thought of most of the stuff except this. Don't believe me if you don't wanna, but it's true.......

[Kish]

That dragon does not speak common, if I recall correctly.
Yes, he did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html)

[quick_comment]

Ressurected Kubota perhaps?

Kubota and the dragon are the only enemies that V has slain (on screen) with disintegrate, right?

[Tobimaro]

Wow. I almost got whiplash from this unexpected turn of events. :smallbiggrin:

Well played, Giant!

I just hope that V can get out of this situation with cloak and soul intact. :smalleek:

[Falconer]

Y'know, I've realized something. I don't care who the dragon is. If it's the dragon from earlier, I don't care how he's alive again.


What matters is this: that was one of the most awesome entrances i've seen in a while.

[Madeddy]

I think the biggest clue about V's future path is in the strip title 'Good to the Last Drip'. That drop of water hitting him/her on the head marks the moment V makes a decision leading to an alignment change.

[BillyJimBoBob]

The dragon is almost certainly a relative of the young adult black one. There are various clues.

1) The obvious similarity in appearance, up to and including the speech bubble.

2) In 188 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), we learn that the starmetal was brought to the cave by an older dragon, one that is at least a century old, rather than the young adult V defeated.

3) This is consistent with the earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html) mention of a dragon mom who cared enough to teach the dragon lizard.

4) Furthermore, in 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), the Oracle mentions "an important client flying in" - which a centuries-old winged dragon would be - and that he doesn't want "a dead mammal to screw it up", implying that said client would be able to see Roy's ghost. This can easily be an angry mom dragon seeking to find the wizard who smoked her baby.

I call that the next comic will have the dragon explaining how she found V, with a flashback panel showing the Oracle being a lot more helpful to a draconic client by giving a satisfactory answer. :)

Something like
Dragon: "Here is the gold. Now to my question. My precious baby-"
Oracle: "...was killed with two Disintegrate spells by a currently 14th level purple-haired elf wizard by the name of Vaarsuvius who is currently on a ship in the middle of a fleeing Azurite fleet but will be leaving it in 15 days to occupy an island 11 miles from the coast and proceed to study spells there, alone, with the exception of an inconsequential little imp. Anything else?"Yes. This. Or something very much like this.

Seriously though:

Kabuta, whom we saw die, comes back to life somehow, assumes his natural form of an ancient black dragon, and somehow finds V on his isle? Whaaaat?

V's mate decides to polymorph into the form of an ancient black dragon, somehow finds V on his isle, and asks V to cast another disintegrate on the Imp? Whaaaat?

The Imp casts an illusion spell, ignoring the rule of spell casting by not speaking the name of the spell (how the heck illusionists ever get a spell believed in OotS world is beyond me. Caster: "Shadow Evocation", Target: "Thanks. I think I'll disbelieve.") and the illusion form of an ancient black dragon persists after the Imp falls unconscious? Whaaaat?

I get just as much enjoyment reading all the wild speculation as I do reading the comic. But it's more of a bewildered enjoyment, kind of like "How the heck did they come up with that???"

[Liwen]

I have two very important questions :

1.How the Hell can an imp take over 20d6 damage and not die, even if he succeed his check?

2. And who the hell is this middly intimidating interloper?

[Mc. Lovin']

Yes, he did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html)

Curses, I forgot the real reason why it didn't comply with V's suggestion anymore.

[galdon]

Ok, i see a lot of theories about the dragon being related to the one 'V killed'

First of all; nobody was present when 'V killed' the dragon. so there is no direct link for a related dragon to follow. The imp surely did not know about V killing a particular dragon earlier, and so could not have tipped a vengeful parent off.

Second, V did not land the first blow, nor was the party leader, or profited from the slaying. Dragons are long lived vastly powerful, and intellegent creatures, in the knowledge that a lone being could not have slain one of thier own, it would have asked one of these questions "Who attacked ____" which would give a list of the names of each party member who made an attack. (V was not the only one) "who lead the attack on _____" which would have lead to Roy, who is now dead. "who stole the starmetal" which would again lead to roy, or finally "who took ____'s treasure" which would lead to haley.

Finally, why would it CARE. we're talking about a fantasy world where dragons are slain by heroes all the freaking time. go slay the dragon is a very common quest for adventurers, if dragons went out of their way to hunt down anybody who killed thier kin, you'd have a swarm of dragons descending upon adventurers all the time in an act of vengeance. that just does not happen. so if it is about that even it is much more probable again that it would be a matter about the starmetal, and not V's getting the last hit in.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Cliches become so by being such powerful explainers of situations. Our writer may put his own spin on it, but recall here that the death of Therkla was very cliche.
It was? How so? You mean, there was an epic movie a while back where the hero was poisoned and the two who ran for the antidote showed up just a little bit too late? Never saw it three times, nor do I own the DVD.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Actually, it's possible that she does have another Disintegrate. 14th level is a near certainty by now, so that's 3 base. Given her headband, and 19 Int, it's likely that she has a bonus spell/day from that. And we still don't know her speciality, it's likely Evocation, sure, but not guaranteed. That's 5. And even if she doesn't have one of those, she could have prepared Disintegrate in a 7th level spot.He also has a ring of spell storing, iirc. Although I don't know if that can store a Disintegrate spell, nor do I care. V will cast whatever spells he casts, and I won't be bothered to count them and compare them with D&D rules to "guess" V's level.

[Dausuul]

Actually, it's possible that she does have another Disintegrate. 14th level is a near certainty by now, so that's 3 base. Given her headband, and 19 Int, it's likely that she has a bonus spell/day from that. And we still don't know her speciality, it's likely Evocation, sure, but not guaranteed. That's 5. And even if she doesn't have one of those, she could have prepared Disintegrate in a 7th level spot.

V's specialty is established to be Evocation in the prequels. Unless s/he prepared another one in a 7th-level slot, or is 17th level (which seems extremely unlikely), V is out.


1.How the Hell can an imp take over 20d6 damage and not die, even if he succeed his check?

If the imp made his saving throw, he took 5d6 damage, not 20d6.

[silvadel]

Could always be his former familiar blackwing back after being polymorphed.

[[sWc]Konman]

He also has a ring of spell storing, iirc. Although I don't know if that can store a Disintegrate spell, nor do I care. V will cast whatever spells he casts, and I won't be bothered to count them and compare them with D&D rules to "guess" V's level.

thats a ring of Wizardry, i believe.
yeah
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html

[Dausuul]

Konman;5704856']thats a ring of Wizardry, i believe.
yeah
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html

In which case it does not help. Rings of wizardry top out at 4th level, and disintegrate is a 6th-level spell.

Anyway, rules lawyering aside, dramatic convention clearly dictates that V must be out of disintegrate spells at this time.

[Assassin89]

Apparently the main question regarding this comic is about the black dragon. I do not know anything about the black dragon, but I anticipate that our question will be answered within the next few comics.

[Forealms]

Oooooh, I just had an idea!!

Here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) the Oracle said that he had an important client flying in. Since both the Oracle and the dragon share reptilian history (I'm counting "dragon" as reptilian, just hang with me for a minute), then the Oracle would be happy to help the dragon (Or just because it is an important client). The dragon could have asked "Where can I find the one who killed my [insert relationship/acquaintance title]?". The Oracle hen would have told the dragon, and perhaps because of the aforementioned reptilian history (or, again, just because he likes the client), the Oracle threw in the Vaarsuvius' name as well.

It might be stretching a bit, but it's not totally unlikely.

[Lupy]

I support the "the Dragon is a random encounter" theory.

[Eraniverse]

Second, V did not land the first blow, nor was the party leader, or profited from the slaying. Dragons are long lived vastly powerful, and intellegent creatures, in the knowledge that a lone being could not have slain one of thier own, it would have asked one of these questions "Who attacked ____" which would give a list of the names of each party member who made an attack. (V was not the only one) "who lead the attack on _____" which would have lead to Roy, who is now dead. "who stole the starmetal" which would again lead to roy, or finally "who took ____'s treasure" which would lead to haley.


"Who was responsible for _____'s death" seems the likeliest question to me. Why complicate matters with leaders and benefactors when you can go straight to the cause?

[CrimsonAngel]

[insert relationship/acquaintance title]?".

That's why he looks familliar! It might me the dragon from the starmetal sidequest's [insert relationship]!

[Gandal]

It was? How so? You mean, there was an epic movie a while back where the hero was poisoned and the two who ran for the antidote showed up just a little bit too late? Never saw it three times, nor do I own the DVD.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

[Axl_Rose]

A while ago V was my fave character. I'm not so sure anymore. But if this black dragon is indeed related to the one V killed a long time ago, then I kinda wanna see this momma (or poppa) dragon kick some ass, simply because I like dragons lol.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Just in case it hasn't been thrown out yet, here's ANOTHER Four Words theory:


Right Four Words: Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Disintegrate
Right Being/Time: Qarr just as the Dragon was showing up.
Wrong Reasons: Wasting all hir 6th level spells on an imp. Now V will have no choice except to either get killed or glue hir lips to this dragon's ass. Seeing as the former will greatly impede hir research much more than the latter, V will become the Dragon's faithfully brown-nosing servant and get some sort of Arcane Power in the process.


Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

Hmmm...how strangely appropriate. Do you think the Tiger got hit by one of the Disintegrates?

[dps]

And both drama and comedy feature people failing to notice the obvious on a regular basis. The point is rather a cliche.


It's not like the OotS doesn't have a long history of failed spot checks. :smallsmile:



The dead dragon had a porn stash. While many husbands wouldn't mind having one, successfully hiding it from the wife is much less likely. So it was most unlikely any mate was around.

My wife doesn't have any problem with me having a porn stach; heck her porn stach is probably bigger than mine. Granted, we're probably not exactly the norm in this respect.

[Shadowbane]

That was...amazing. I'm totally impressed right now.

Go Burlew!

[Starwaster]

:biggrin:

Wild Speculation Time!

- The dragon is the nose of Dr. Verlucci, returned on the anniversary of the day V betrayed him!

You know, it's usually only while reading OOTS or Erfworld that I actually LOL at a website. You just changed that :smallwink:

I wonder what Gary Larson is up to these days....

And, yes, I do believe you hit the nail on the head with your speculation.

[The Blackbird]

It's not the same dragon:

1.) This one has red eyes, not green.
2.) This one has curvy horns, not straight.
3.) This one is at least double the size.

This is probably the other dragon's much-older mother, father, sibling, etc.

Which means V is in deep trouble.

EDIT: Black dragons can breathe water; it likely was hiding under the water and then rose up to make itself known at a key moment.

Although you have a good point, there can be resurrection mishaps that can slightly alter appearance eye color being one of them... but this theory is a bit of a stretch though

[Scarlet Knight]

My wife doesn't have any problem with me having a porn stach; heck her porn stach is probably bigger than mine. Granted, we're probably not exactly the norm in this respect.

Great; now I'm going to always read "dps" as "dp's".:smallredface:

:vaarsuvius: "Well, then, I believe perhaps that I am, in fact , completely screwed."

[bluedolphin359]

This is driving me insane. I have checked for a new comic 20 times today already. I really hope there is one soon, before I lose it entirely.

[valce]

As an aside, the cloister spell should be nearing the end of its effect on Haley and the others.

So after dealing with the dragon, Varsuvius should be able to scry them properly...

Wouldn't it be silly if she attributes her success to the imp's help? :P

-V

[gjp]

Try this one on for size:
not too different from other variations of the kubota = dragon theory.



Kubota was a dragon, took human shape in order to infiltrate the politics of Azure city, etc..... Kubota was / is also related to the black dragon that the OOTS killed earlier.

[Zea mays]

If it's a resurrected dragon, might it not be this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html)? Far fetched and begging for some delightfully convoluted explanation, I know, but not more so than various other theories floating in the ether.

Love it.

Edit - My bad for forgetting the dungeon purge episode. :smallredface:
Still love the symmetry of a dragon ending V's voyage of self-doubt and misery that began when that dragon's head landed hon his/her skeletal opponent.

[bluedolphin359]

Try this one on for size:
not too different from other variations of the kubota = dragon theory.



Kubota was a dragon, took human shape in order to infiltrate the politics of Azure city, etc..... Kubota was / is also related to the black dragon that the OOTS killed earlier.




Hehe, just remembered a quote which would seem to support that.

:vaarsuvius:: Fascinating. I cannot help but notice that the disintegrated remains of a dragon are indistinguishable from those of a human, or a halfling, or a dwarf.

[dogmac]

I like the Kuboto theory. Explains the name thing.

And it would also make Qarr in bigger trouble then V.

[Janmorel]

I wonder if the Imp will take this opportunity to sneak away with whats left of his hit points, or if he'll have a larger part to play.

[Raenir Salazar]

Ok, i see a lot of theories about the dragon being related to the one 'V killed'

First of all; nobody was present when 'V killed' the dragon. so there is no direct link for a related dragon to follow. The imp surely did not know about V killing a particular dragon earlier, and so could not have tipped a vengeful parent off.

Second, V did not land the first blow, nor was the party leader, or profited from the slaying. Dragons are long lived vastly powerful, and intellegent creatures, in the knowledge that a lone being could not have slain one of thier own, it would have asked one of these questions "Who attacked ____" which would give a list of the names of each party member who made an attack. (V was not the only one) "who lead the attack on _____" which would have lead to Roy, who is now dead. "who stole the starmetal" which would again lead to roy, or finally "who took ____'s treasure" which would lead to haley.

Finally, why would it CARE. we're talking about a fantasy world where dragons are slain by heroes all the freaking time. go slay the dragon is a very common quest for adventurers, if dragons went out of their way to hunt down anybody who killed thier kin, you'd have a swarm of dragons descending upon adventurers all the time in an act of vengeance. that just does not happen. so if it is about that even it is much more probable again that it would be a matter about the starmetal, and not V's getting the last hit in.

I think your nearly completely wrong on every respect through both common sense and D&D rules.

The Imp may not have been there but the comic clearly shows the entirety of the OoTS being present with most of them awake when V cast Disintegrate twice.

As it has been pointed out the Dragon almsot assurdely was the important client flying in to meet the Oracle who the Imp not liking Roy or his friends very much almost certaintly told him where to go, who did it.

When it comes to grief of a parent to his or her child you don't CARE WHO made up the group in particular if they're all far apart you will only care about who laid the final blow and led him to his demise and then worry about the stragglers.

The Oracle to make things worse could just as easily told her that V casted suggestion thereby ending the fight right there leadign the dragon to his doom, if V wasn't there it seems likely the Dragon would have won albeit scarred.

V effectively won that fight and did the killing blow that is all that matters to the parent.



Finally, why would it CARE.


Because its her SON AND CHILD died. Even Chaotic Evil Dragons feel love and affection to their young, see Dragons of Autumn Twilight where the Heroes of the Lance deal with the Great Ancient Red Wyrm.



we're talking about a fantasy world where dragons are slain by heroes all the freaking time. go slay the dragon is a very common quest for adventurers, if dragons went out of their way to hunt down anybody who killed thier kin, you'd have a swarm of dragons descending upon adventurers all the time in an act of vengeance. that just does not happen. so if it is about that even it is much more probable again that it would be a matter about the starmetal, and not V's getting the last hit in

Usually unrelated dragons are territorial enough to not care and take up the empty land, but you will find that theres quite a few stories of dragons going made and devastating the countryside.

And frankly if as a DM a band of adventurors killed a dragon Ild roll a die and see if theres anyone who'ld get upset by this, like when artifacts are destroyed. Or are you going to say because Artifcacts get destroyed all the time that no one would take an interest in such an event?

The Star Metal could be a reason but Rich is already in the habit of making evil characters typically care for their next of kin we can surmise that its mor elikely this is a matter of grief driven revenge with the starmetal being a lesser priority seeing as how the dragon went after V first.

There isnt that much to determine in terms fo probabilities, we have enough patterns and enough evidence to surmise logically not statistically what the reasons here are.

[Finwe]

If Kubota was really a huge black dragon, why would he have been so worried for his life back on the boat? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html)

[Rotipher]

If it's a resurrected dragon, might it not be this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html)? Far fetched and begging for some delightfully convoluted explanation, I know, but not more so than various other theories floating in the ether.

Xykon's undead steed had been a silver dragon, not a black one. He killed it when he and Redcloak cleared out all the Good-aligned monsters who (in a reversal of the usual "monster-overrun tower" theme) had taken up residence in a former stronghold of Evil.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Prediction on how V lives:

Assume V is lvl 14 with 22+ Int, that gives V one more 7th spell. Which I think is this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html Given an Adult has average hp just below the necessary maximum http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordBlind.htm http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon It'll last long enough for V to get away with flight + invis

If I missed this prediction already being made, um, opps.

[Illven]

Their is no way that the dragon is Kubota's true form, Quarr said that Kubota had no real power, a Garguatuan dragon has power

[gjp]

If Kubota was really a huge black dragon, why would he have been so worried for his life back on the boat? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html)

I think he was more concerned about blowing his cover than drowning... at least the surrender option would have let him maintain his guise.

[Finwe]

I think he was more concerned about blowing his cover than drowning... at least the surrender option would have let him maintain his guise.

I was referring to this:


Quarr, where the hell were you? You were supposed to be my back-up in there. I had to use up my last dose of lotus extract just to get out alive!

[Blanth]

For all of you who are thinking this sudden appearance of a large dragon is a bad thing...

Next strip we cut to a full on Playdrake centerfold!

/or you know, back to the story
//which is more likely
///those back issues aren't mine. Really.

[David Argall]

It was? How so? You mean, there was an epic movie a while back where the hero was poisoned and the two who ran for the antidote showed up just a little bit too late?

The evil girl getting the hots for the hero is a very well known cliche. When the hero is unattached, she often switches sides. When there is already a love interest for the hero, the other girl often ends up dead.

[turkishproverb]

It pains me to say this, but David Argall is right. :smallsmile: