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Curmudgeon
2009-01-27, 05:07 AM
I've looked for an official word on Epic progressions for the Ur-Priest prestige class, and come up short. Complete Divine has the following guidelines on pages 88-89:
EPIC-LEVEL PRESTIGE-CLASS CHARACTERS

For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 10th level at the same rate it did during the 10 levels of your prestige class. Thus, a 13th-level loremaster adds 13 to his caster level derived from another class to determine total caster level. However, your spells per day donít increase after caster level 20th. There's also this:
To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the characterís ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric donít count.) In the case of an Ur-Priest without any other spellcasting classes, we need 10 more levels before the standard Epic limits on spells per day kick in. I'm just trying to figure out what the correct spells per day progression is for an Ur-Priest for levels 11-20. The chart on page 70 of Complete Divine has a shifting pattern of the number of spells per day:
{table=head;width=400px]Ur-Priest|{colsp=10}Spells per Day
Class Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|5|3|0|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|5|3|1|0|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|6|3|2|1|0|-|-|-|-|-
5th|6|3|3|2|1|0|-|-|-|-
6th|6|3|3|3|2|1|0|-|-|-
7th|6|4|3|3|3|2|1|0|-|-
8th|6|4|4|3|3|3|2|1|0|-
9th|6|5|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|0
10th|6|5|5|4|4|4|4|3|2|1
[/table]
So how do we create a spells per day progression up through Ur-Priest caster level 20?
We could go this route:
{table=head;width=400px]Ur-Priest|{colsp=10} Spells per Day
Class Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
11th|6|6|5|5|5|5|4|3|2|1
12th|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|3|2|1
13th|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|2|1
14th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|2
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
[/table]
... or maybe this one:
{table=head;width=400px]Ur-Priest|{colsp=10} Spells per Day
Class Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
11th|6|5|5|4|4|4|4|3|2|1
12th|6|5|5|5|4|4|4|4|3|2
13th|6|5|5|5|5|5|4|4|4|3
14th|6|6|6|5|5|5|5|5|4|4
15th|6|6|6|6|5|5|5|5|5|4
16th|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|5|5|5
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|5|5
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|5
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
[/table] Suggestions? Feedback?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-27, 06:08 AM
From the SRD page on epic level basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm), with emphasis added:

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day donít increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.
That is assuming you're using a class with a 20-level progression, such as Cleric or Wizard. For a class with a 10-level progression such as Ur-Priest, you should replace each instance of "after 20th level" with "after 10th level" in the above quote. It assumes that the max level for the normal class progression of spells/day ends at 20th level, so that is why it says it stops at the 20th level.

Furthermore, from the same SRD page:

Characters donít gain any new class features, because there arenít any new class features described for these levels. Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level and features that have a limited list of options do not improve as a character gains epic levels. Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.
Ur-Priest spells/day do indeed slow and eventually stop at the tenth level (which is before the 20th level), therefore they absolutely do not continue progressing past what is shown on the normal class progression even in the epic levels. Otherwise a character could go Class 5/ Ur-Priest 10/ Full Casting PrC 5 to gain 15th level Ur-Priest spells/day, which would be no more than what you would have at the 10th level of the class.

Arguing that a 10-level prestige class that uses its own spellcasting progression would continue gaining additional spells/day in the epic levels until the 20th class level goes completely against both RAW and the writers' intent. Any DM who allows a player to do something like this should resign his position behind the screen.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-27, 06:26 AM
Ur-Priest spells/day do indeed slow and eventually stop at the tenth level (which is before the 20th level), therefore they absolutely do not continue progressing past what is shown on the normal class progression even in the epic levels. I can't find anything in the rules to back up your opinions. I quoted the updated rules for Epic level prestige class spellcasters (in the same book as the 10-level prestige class I was inquiring about). You came back quoting the older rules for Epic level base classes, and then suggested your own house rules from there.

Seriously, not helpful.

wadledo
2009-01-27, 06:41 AM
I can't find anything in the rules to back up your opinions. I quoted the updated rules for Epic level prestige class spellcasters (in the same book as the 10-level prestige class I was inquiring about). You came back quoting the older rules for Epic level base classes, and then suggested your own house rules from there.

Seriously, not helpful.

Huh?
No, pretty helpful.
Ur-priest is already considered very powerful, and the fact that you add half of caster level to it would seem to mean that adding spells until caster level 20 would be against the spirit of the class.
Since you add half your spellcasting levels, increasing the progression wouldn't do you a whole lot of good anyway.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-27, 08:28 AM
Since you add half your spellcasting levels, increasing the progression wouldn't do you a whole lot of good anyway. That's only if you have another spellcasting class. By the RAW, the spells per day increase until you reach caster level 20.
Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern (such as a the assassinís sneak attack bonus damage) typically also continue to increase or accumulate after 10th level at the same rate. I'm just trying to figure out what "at the same rate" means for the Ur-Priest's spells per day.

Douglas
2009-01-27, 09:46 AM
That's only if you have another spellcasting class. By the RAW, the spells per day increase until you reach caster level 20.
The quote you posted only states that spells per day do not increase after 20th. It does not actually state that spells per day always do increase until that point.

I'm just trying to figure out what "at the same rate" means for the Ur-Priest's spells per day.
It has no clear repeated pattern, so it doesn't improve at all.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-27, 03:10 PM
The quote you posted only states that spells per day do not increase after 20th. It does not actually state that spells per day always do increase until that point.
No, but the precedent for other casting PrCs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020706a) is that they do increase:
Spells

The epic animal lordís caster level is equal to her class level. The epic animal lordís number of spells per day increases until her caster level reaches 20th.

The epic arcane tricksterís caster level increases by one per level gained above 10th. The epic arcane tricksterís number of spells per day increases until his caster level reaches 20th.

The epic divine agentís caster level increases by one level for every two levels gained above 10th. The epic divine agentís number of spells per day increases until her caster level reaches 20th.

The epic elemental savantís caster level increases by one per level gained above 10th, except for any level that ends in 0 (such as 20th or 30th). The epic elemental savantís number of spells per day increases until her caster level reaches 20th.

The epic hospitalerís caster level increases by one per level gained above 10th. The epic hospitalerís number of spells per day increases until her caster level reaches 20th.

The epic planeshifterís caster level increases by one level every time he gains a class level ending in 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 0. The epic planeshifterís number of spells per day increases until his caster level reaches 20th.

The epic warpriestís caster level increases by one level for every two levels gained above 10th. The epic warpriestís number of spells per day increases until his caster level reaches 20th.

It has no clear repeated pattern, so it doesn't improve at all. Can you cite a RAW source for this point of view?

We're talking a 30th level character, with no other spellcasting capability whatsoever. This doesn't seem overpowering to me.

Douglas
2009-01-27, 04:39 PM
I'm fairly sure every single one of the PrCs listed in your quote are of the advance-other-casting-class variety and the note about spells per day is just clarification that it continues advancing to the limit of the base class's progression. If you find an explicit statement specifically about a PrC that has its own spells per day, that would be a relevant precedent.

The Assassin and Blackguard each have their own casting progressions and have explicit epic progressions specified. Both of them stop gaining spells per day at 10th level.

epic class feature guidelines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#classFeatures):

Generally, any class feature that uses class level as part of a mathematical formula continues to increase using the characterís class level in the formula. Any prestige class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level should add only half the characterís class levels above 10th.
Clear pattern, continues.

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day donít increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.
This seems to have been written with only base and advancement-of-previous casting classes in mind. That, or the number is meant to refer to character level. In the context of classes like Assassin, Blackguard, and Ur-Priest the statement about caster level continuing to increase after specifically 20th level doesn't make sense. The only way to interpret this statement that is consistent and makes sense in all situations is that "20th" is really intended to mean "the end of the non-epic progression."

Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern also continues to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate. An exception to this rule is any bonus feat granted as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as part of a class feature, these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, these classes get bonus feats at a different rate (described in each epic class description).
Clear patterns continue in epic.

Characters donít gain any new class features, because there arenít any new class features described for these levels. Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level and features that have a limited list of options do not improve as a character gains epic levels. Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.
Here's the kicker. The only thing I can think of that would fit under neither any of the other rules nor this one is a class feature with an accelerating irregular progression, and I don't know of any class that has such a thing. If any did and the designers noticed, I'm sure that would have been noted here too.

Pretty much, anything that has an obvious continuation continues. Anything that doesn't, doesn't. And spells per day don't.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-27, 05:43 PM
This seems to have been written with only base and advancement-of-previous casting classes in mind. Then it's not worth repeating again, is it? The most relevant rules about Epic progressions for spellcasting prestige classes are in Complete Divine. From that it's clear that the CL of an Ur-Priest will continue to increase up to their 20th level in that PrC. And spells per day will not increase after the Ur-Priest reaches CL 20, which strongly implies that spells per day do increase up to that point.

I don't know of any other prestige classes that grant an independent spellcasting progression. If you're aware of any, I'd appreciate pointers.

Douglas
2009-01-27, 06:06 PM
I don't know of any other prestige classes that grant an independent spellcasting progression. If you're aware of any, I'd appreciate pointers.
Assassin and Blackguard in core, and those actually have explicit epic progressions in the SRD, neither of which include increased spells per day. Also Pious Templar, Sublime Chord, Suel Arcanamach, and I'm pretty sure there are a few others.

I'll look up the rules in Complete Divine when I get home.

Douglas
2009-01-27, 07:51 PM
Ok, having checked the rules in Complete Divine I have but two things to say:
1) The example of the Loremaster given in the rule you are referring to makes it clear the rule was written with advance-a-base-class PrCs in mind.
2) Check out the Holy Liberator on pages 45-48 and its epic progression given as an example on page 89.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-27, 08:06 PM
Assassin and Blackguard in core, and those actually have explicit epic progressions in the SRD, neither of which include increased spells per day. Also Pious Templar, Sublime Chord, Suel Arcanamach, and I'm pretty sure there are a few others. Assassin and Blackguard are limited casting classes (only up to 4th level spells), so it makes sense for them to be limited in their Epic progressions. Sublime Chord already requires spellcasting. Anyway, there are no official Epic progression for Pious Templar, Sublime Chord, or Suel Arcanamach, so we can't draw any conclusions from those classes.

The general pattern is for full spellcasting PrCs to continue to advance their spells per day up to 20th CL, but all the examples of these are extensions of a base spellcasting class. I'm afraid Ur-Priest may be unique.

Douglas
2009-01-27, 08:11 PM
The general principle that all examples I have seen anywhere in any splatbook support is that spells per day never advance beyond the end of the non-epic table for any spellcasting class, regardless of any other factors, and this does not contradict any actual rule I know of.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-27, 10:04 PM
First and foremost, the Complete Divine epic level progression rules are not an update to the existing rules, it is a very typo-ridden book which simply reiterates what has already been said. The primary source on epic level progression is first the Core DMG (Core > All), then the Epic Level Handbook version which has been updated in the SRD (source dedicated to that topic > sources not specifically dedicated to that topic), the Complete Divine version has no power to override either of those. You can find the rules on Primary Source in any of the core book errata (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a).

Second, an epic level progression for a prestige class is always ultimately up to the DM to determine, not the player. Any DM that would let a player get away with trying at stunt like this is not a good DM in the first place. Any player who tries to bully a DM into allowing something like this is a munchkin by every definition.

The bottom line is, Ur-Priest spellcasting does not follow a regular progression throughout all ten levels of the class, so there is no logical continuation of that progression in the epic levels. The progression of spells/day clearly slows and eventually stops for every level of spells, therefore it would not increase as they gain additional epic levels of the class. There is only a poorly worded entry in a book that is not even the primary source that will only suggest otherwise if you want it to, but it in no way overrides the primary source on epic level progressions of prestige classes.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-28, 03:31 AM
First and foremost, the Complete Divine epic level progression rules are not an update to the existing rules, it is a very typo-ridden book which simply reiterates what has already been said. Oh, really? The book disagrees with you:
When an epic-level character advances a prestige class beyond 10th level, he follows all the rules presented in the Dungeon Masterís Guide. In addition, you must create an epic level progression for your prestige class, just as the Dungeon Masterís Guide presents epic-level progressions for the classes from the Playerís Handbook. Many, but not all, class features continue to accumulate after 10th level. The following guidelines describe how to create an epic class progression
...
For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 10th level at the same rate it did during the 10 levels of your prestige class. ... However, your spells per day donít increase after caster level 20th The Dungeon Master's Guide (and before that, the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook) did not include any guidelines on how to create Epic level progressions for prestige classes; it merely restricted the scope to 10-level PrCs. Complete Divine added those guidelines -- very clearly an update.
an epic level progression for a prestige class is always ultimately up to the DM to determine, not the player.The book specifically says you create the Epic level progression for your 10-level PrC. Obviously the DM has final say in everything in D&D -- but by RAW, an Epic level progression for a prestige class (where one doesn't already exist) is up to the player to determine.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-28, 03:49 AM
You is whoever is playing the game, which could be the player or the DM. It is not exclusively singular, therefore it could even be referring to the entire gaming group. Just because you want that pronoun to refer to you as the player making the character does not automatically mean that it does.

You are quote mining for any excuse you can get to go against the intent of the rules in this case, and as I said before no decent DM would allow it.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-28, 05:15 AM
You is whoever is playing the game, which could be the player or the DM.
Introduction
Complete Divine is a rules supplement for the DUNGEONS & DRAGONSģ Roleplaying Game. Primarily a player resource, it focuses on new options and expanded rules for D&D players who want to create or advance characters with a connection to the divine. What do you think the intent is here?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-28, 09:52 AM
The passage from everyday hero to epic hero isnít a given
fact of life in all games. Every DM has his own opinions
about how (or if) to incorporate epic-level characters
into the campaign. Assuming that your campaign offers
characters the opportunity to achieve 21st level, this
section provides some advice for the player and DM of
a divinely themed character to use when approaching
that point.
As I said before, you are quote mining. You opened the book with a preconceived notion of what you wanted it to say, and nothing you've quoted was intended to mean what you claim it implies. Nobody would be able to get those conclusions from those quotes unless they already came to the conclusion outside of the rules and then searched the book for anything that could support it. You are well aware that you have been taking quotes to mean what they were never intended to even as you argue the point. If you do manage to convince your DM to let you abuse the game as such, I hope you ruin the campaign and are not invited back to play with that group again, as it would be exactly what you deserve.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-28, 11:30 PM
There's really no hope of "ruining the campaign" with a 20 level Ur-Priest spellcasting progression. As I've already pointed out before, this can only happen if the character has no other spellcasting capability at all, and that's at character level 30. Even the most ambitious Ur-Priest spellcasting progression I proposed only matches what a Sorcerer gets at level 20, but with the weaker set of divine spells instead of the Sorcerer's arcane choices. So the best option for 20 levels of Ur-Priest is still worse off than what other classes got to 10 levels earlier. Those 10 levels of Monk (or whatever other non-casting class) don't really help enough to make up the difference.

Nobody I play D&D with is worried about the "abuse" of an Epic Ur-Priest. Most of the power of the class comes from getting 9th level spells with only 9 levels of the PrC, and at character level 14.. The Epic stuff, even with full spellcasting progression, is piddling in comparison to what other classes get up to in Epic levels. The only potential for abuse would come from breaking this rule:
A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. Requiring the Ur-Priest to get up to Epic level before they can progress past level 10 in the PrC is all that's required to prevent abuse.

wadledo
2009-01-28, 11:49 PM
I'm sorry, but multiple people have stated that there is no precedent for what you are attempting.
You refuse to acknowledge their arguments, and continue to repeat the same ideas over and over.
If you want the progression to go further, do it, but please stop making pointless statements.
You don't need us for that.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-29, 07:17 AM
I'm sorry, but multiple people have stated that there is no precedent for what you are attempting. I know that; I'm one of the people pointing out that there aren't any precedents.

You refuse to acknowledge their arguments, and continue to repeat the same ideas over and over. I'm not discounting their arguments at all; I'm just saying that a lack of precedent should not be taken as a prohibition, especially when the rules strongly imply that there should be an Epic spell progression for this PrC.

If you want the progression to go further, do it, but please stop making pointless statements.
You don't need us for that. No, I need people to comment on the actual details of the various suggested progressions. I really would appreciate feedback in this area. Nobody's done that yet.

Joey/Flake
2009-01-29, 07:56 AM
Now, I'm new here, and the Ur-Priest class is rather new to me. Normal I play rather dovoted Clerics, but that changed, now I've looked at this arguent and i will tell you what you want to hear...

..Even if it goes againist everything I have read here.

It is clear you SHALL be taking more Spell Slots aday, and nothing we can say will change your mind.

SO here is my thought on which Spell Per Day you should use out of the two suggested.


Ur-Priest Spells per Day
Class Level 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
11th 6 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
12th 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 2
13th 6 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 3
14th 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 5 4 4
15th 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 5 4
16th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 5
17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5
18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5
19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5

I don't really agree with it, but your mind is made up. Maybe you could plan one using the Shadow Caster Rules. They are powerful but have less Spell Slots. I would have a look at it and commoent but being at college is limiting my ability to 'Surf' and I have not the PDF copies with me.

I hope this will get you to cease your argueing. It really not very mature.

Joey/Flake, The n00B

Douglas
2009-01-29, 08:08 AM
I know that; I'm one of the people pointing out that there aren't any precedents.
I have pointed out multiple precedents, all of which point to no epic spell progression at all. There is nothing in the rules to back your position and several examples to oppose it.

If you came to me or any good DM I've played with and tried this "rules" argument for an epic Ur-Priest, you would get denied immediately. If you started off with a balance argument, comparing the Ur-Priest to a normal caster 20/other 10, then you might get some serious discussion.

Stick with the balance argument, don't try to pretend you're following the RAW too.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-29, 08:48 AM
I have pointed out multiple precedents, all of which point to no epic spell progression at all. Precedents for full-casting PrCs? Because all the ones I've found say "the ___'s number of spells per day increases until his caster level reaches 20th." You've been citing precedents for base classes and limited casting PrCs, which aren't relevant here.

Besides, your argument is with wadledo, not me:
there is no precedent for what you are attempting.

Douglas
2009-01-29, 09:23 AM
Show me where that distinction exists in the rules and you might have a point. Every rule I have ever seen for building epic progressions makes no such distinction. If Ur-Priest gets to progress spells per day in epic by the rules, then so should every 10 level PrC with its own casting progression, limited or not. There are at least three examples that unanimously say they don't, so Ur-Priest doesn't either. You can argue balance if you like, but the RAW is clear.

wadledo
2009-01-29, 12:40 PM
Besides, your argument is with wadledo, not me:

Please do not try to turn the argument around in such a poor manner, I don't think it has anything to do with the discussion.