Is this dragon related to the one V killed.

[Kranden]

Thread title discuss

*edited because its not :smallcool:the one he killed

[SPoD]

No, it is not.

1.) It has different eye color.
2.) It has wavy horns instead of straight ones.
3.) It is about twice as large.

It is likely the previous dragon's mother/father/older sibling.

[Kranden]

Yes you are right but its rather interesting that the word here is disintegrate.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html

V tends to only use this spell in very dramatic moments.

[CallingCtulhu]

Given the fact that Rich seldom does the obvious, I'd say it's not related in any way.

[Ara]

well, if you notice, the other dragon was killed MANY miles away from this point..
I find it unprobably that this Dragon is related to the first.
I would say this has to do directly with Quarr or with Kubota (in some way), taking in consideration the "Say Disintegrate one more time... for me"

[King of Nowhere]

Surely the dragon knows V, and being a black dragon probably means it has some relation to the other dragon. Aside from that, we can't say anything. I wouldn't put past Rich to surprise us somehow

[Firewind]

Well the dragon V killed does mention it's mother while talking to the polymorph'd V so it wouldn't be crazy to assume that the big dragon is a very hungry and very angry mother dragon.

The room they fought the dragon in was also full of water. The current dragon came out of the sea.

Personally I think it's just a nod to the previous dragon fight but it's not crazy to assume a relation at all.

[Kaytara]

The dragon has the same colour of the hide, claws, horns and wings and even the speech bubble is the same. The only differences, the colour of the eyes and the shape of the horns, could simply be something that varies from dragon to dragon, or even from young adult to full grown.

That the dragon is in fact an angry mother dragon who had loved her offspring and took precautions to be warned if her little hatchling got into trouble and has come seeking revenge is indeed a very likely explanation.

Even though, personally, I get the feeling that the dragon actually knows Vaarsuvius.

[Kish]

well, if you notice, the other dragon was killed MANY miles away from this point..
I find it unprobably that this Dragon is related to the first.
I would say this has to do directly with Quarr or with Kubota (in some way), taking in consideration the "Say Disintegrate one more time... for me"
Considering it is another black dragon, either it has something to do with that dragon or Rich is playing a kind of mind game Rich doesn't play. There are lots of dragon colors in D&D.

[Narthon the Bold]

Black Dragons have an affinity to water, so water being connected to both of them does not indicate any other connection.

[MythicFox]

I think if you're looking for a connection, you'll probably find it here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html

Panels 2 and 3 in particular.

[Firewind]

Even though, personally, I get the feeling that the dragon actually knows Vaarsuvius.

Given that Draconic is a bonus language to Wizards i find that more likely

[Heads_or_Tails]

When I read that my initial assumption was that the dragon was the same one that Vaarsuvius killed, and that it was appearing here because V has gone quite, quite mad. The difference in appearance (when I go back and look through the archives) could be rationalised as V not remembering with perfect clarity. My reasoning for this is that V, when she trances, is looking over old memories and categorising and sorting them, but since she is no longer trancing she no longer has the opportunity to do that and so, like people who stay awake too long, if he won't get the dreams while he's asleep, his mind gives them to her while she's awake.

Typing this out I now realise that the imp wouldn't have been able to see the figment of her imagination. Damn. Well, I can say that V managed to disintegrate the little imp and that the words he was saying after his death was V's mind also. If he could imagine up a dead dragon a little imp wouldn't be too much of a problem.

What? It could be.

[Kaytara]

I think if you're looking for a connection, you'll probably find it here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html

Panels 2 and 3 in particular.

That is a good point. Another dragon - one that is over a century old, no less - brought the starmetal into that cave. This is consistent with the young dragon talking about its mom. O.O Well spotted.
So Rich was already dropping clues and setting up this encounter all the way back then? O.O Wow.

Now that I think of it - though it may have already been mentioned - the Oracle mentioned "an important client flying in" in 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) (emphasis mine). The important client - a dragon who's over a century old (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) - visiting a kobold, powered by a draconic god? Seems likely. Also, the Oracle's comment about not wanting a dead mammal (Roy's ghost) to screw it up implies that the visitor would be able to see Roy, which an ancient dragon would no doubt be able to.

It looks like the vengeful relative explanation is indeed very likely.

[ericgrau]

V beat the last dragon with two disintegrates. This dragon said, "Say distintegrate for me, one more time." Yes, this dragon is related somehow to the other and she is pissed.

They found out specifically that the last black dragon was a young adult, based on the playdragons, etc. they found. This one is one size larger making her anything from a mature adult to ancient. And at least 101 years older than the other dragon. The last dragon made reference to his mother wanting him to branch out and learn odd languages like lizard. In the main comic thread Webox mentions the oracle having a client asking who disintegrated his son/relative. I'll have to check that out.

We already had some family themes going on during the first fight, and I'd guess that they'll continue. This dragon might be the other dragon's mother or father.

And please cut the "4 words" predictions. We hear them every single time V says 4 words. It gets annoying.

[Revlid]

That is a good point. Another dragon - one that is over a century old, no less - brought the starmetal into that cave. This is consistent with the young dragon talking about its mom. O.O Well spotted.
So Rich was already dropping clues and setting up this encounter all the way back then? O.O Wow.

Now that I think of it - though it may have already been mentioned - the Oracle mentioned "an important client flying in" in 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) (emphasis mine). The important client - a dragon who's over a century old (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) - visiting a kobold, powered by a draconic god? Seems likely. Also, the Oracle's comment about not wanting a dead mammal (Roy's ghost) to screw it up implies that the visitor would be able to see Roy, which an ancient dragon would no doubt be able to.

It looks like the vengeful relative explanation is indeed very likely.

This is fantastic. No-one's mentioned the Oracle thing until now, and it sounds right. It certainly explains in more depth why the Oracle wanted Roy out of there so quickly (other than natural cantankerousness).

[Draz74]

Yeah, the Oracle connection theory here is the most impressive piece of theorycraft I've seen on this Forum in many moons. Wow, that's exciting to think about! I'm impressed.

[Kaytara]

As I said, someone DID mention it earlier. I just wasn't sure if it was in this thread or another, but now I've found it. Webox is the one who first suggested the Oracle idea here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5702615&postcount=19).

When I read that I wasn't yet convinced that the dragon was the smoked one's relative back for revenge, but when I made the connection later with what V said about an older dragon bringing the starmetal to the cave, the pieces fell into place.

So, I wish I could say I've thought of the Oracle's client on my own, but I didn't. XD I just summed it up with all the other pieces of evidence we have.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I'm wondering if this dragon has something to do with V's backstory...

On the Origin of PCs Spoiler
In OtOoPCs, V's backstory has V entering the Iron Mage contest, but making a mistake on hir spell, causing the arena to blow up. Not much of a backstory, especially for an elf over 100 years old!

Somewhere, Rich says that at least one of the characters doesn't get much of their backstory told, so looking over the stories, you have to wonder which one.
Roy: Fairly thorough backstory
Haley: Same as Roy
Durkon: Same as Haley and Roy.
These three get fairly full backstories.
Elan: His adventures with Sir Fransois seem shortened... As if he had been a sidekick to other heroes. Mostly complete backstory, but room for expansion if needed.
Belkar: Do we really want to know Belkar's backstory? (I know there's no "players" behind the characters, but I've always seen Belkar as being played by a somewhat anti-social Middle School kid who's older, college-aged brother (the player behind Roy) has to take him along to keep their parents happy. Belkar's player plays the Belkster as only an obnoxious Middle School kid can! (I know. I taught school for a while. Some kids are wonderful. Others? Only remain alive because murder is illegal. :smallbiggrin:)

Thus leaving only V with a very minimal backstory.

So, my question on this subject is:
Could there be, and under what circumstances could V have encountered a completely different black dragon, and the use of the Disentigrate spell have been used? Something to do with the wizard V studied under?

[B.I.T.T.]

Well if it's related to the defeated dragon I'd have to guess it's the mother. The mother has actually been mentioned in the comic, so there's more continuity plus somehow "Say 'disintigrate' one more time, Vaarsuvius. One more time, Vaarsuvius. For me." just doesn't seem like something a guy would say.

[Gloverboy]

The Mother Dragon Theory is pretty solid. V's analysis indicating a "Different Dragon" would be a red herring otherwise, and a useless one.

I'd claim Occams Razor and say its the first Dragon, gone fiendish from a demonic resurrection or something. But A: thats not much more simple and B: This comic rejects Occams razor often. While spitting in V's face.

Still just hoping that this doesnt lead to V joining up with Quarr.

[Caractacus]

I think if we tackle this issue backwards, it seems very likely that it IS related to one that V killed.

By backwards, I mean that for it NOT to be related Rich would have had to:

1) choose the Dragon creature type by chance,

2) choose a Black Dragon also on a whim (though water IS around...),

3) have made it mention V's name without an obvious reason (i.e. we now have to have a completely different set of reasons given to us to explain it),

4) have made it say what it did about Disintegrate based upon (presumably) the dragon's assessment of how many Disintegrate spells V can use per day and not because of the fact that s/he used two to kill a Black Dragon in an earlier strip.

5) have by chance (i.e. presumably unrelated to the main plot) made the Oracle refer to a client flying in to ask about who Disintegrated its offspring,

and 5) had intended the references to an older dragon in the strips where V killed the Young Adult be simply what they seemed to be, references, and not foreshadowing.

Now, the last one may have been chance at the time. But with Rich's acknowledgement that he plans the BROAD plot outlines (the major points therefore) well in advance and knows what the concluding panel of the whole series will look like, it is far more reasonable that these points taken together indicate a definite link, than that Rich has forgotten the role of the only other Black Dragon in the story and that all the other issues are just coincidences.

Now, if this is true, it suggests that this IS a major element of the plot, and that, in turn, something highly significant will occur. Not merely that V turns and DOES indeed say 'Disintegrate' one more time...

Speaking is a free action, isn't it? I wonder what the dragon can hit V with before V can cast Fly and Invisibility...

Enough, I should think... :smalleek:

[hamishspence]

The oracle said "I have an important client flying in and don't want a dead mammal messing it up" - but thats all, no details.

[Optimystik]

Still just hoping that this doesnt lead to V joining up with Quarr.

Given that Qarr is (a) not a pile of carpet sweepings and (b) plainly worried about V (for whatever reasons), I'd say that his assistance will be crucial in the upcoming fight.

And I SO CALLED THIS! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5684860&postcount=36)

[Salty]

Or it could be V's mate. :smallbiggrin:

[Caractacus]

Or it could be V's mate. :smallbiggrin:


Excellent. Of course, V needs a long-lived wifeband...

Of course, it's been a while for them, so now we get the romantic polymorph luurv scene. Or no polymorph... :smalleek:

[Xesirin]

I'm reasonably certain that it's the same dragon. (raised)

Why?

Rich's art upgrade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), as it were.

The dragon's text struck me as menacing, me personally, maybe mocking up a past relationship. (One of repeated suggestion spells and disintegrations)

[hamishspence]

Main reason I doubt it is size- this one seems marginally bigger, closer to the Ancient Silver than the Young Adult Black.

Art upgrade could be the reason, but the differences in size and looks are big enough for me personally to place it slightly lower probability than Different Dragon.

[David Argall]

it suggests that this IS a major element of the plot, and that, in turn, something highly significant will occur.

On the available evidence, this is a fairly minor element. The dragon may be the element that makes V associating with Qarr seem reasonable, but the dragon wants to kill V, and we have no reason to think V is scheduled to be written out of the story just yet. So the dragon will have something less than a dozen appearances before being killed or vanishing from the story.

[[TS] Shadow]

On the available evidence, this is a fairly minor element. The dragon may be the element that makes V associating with Qarr seem reasonable, but the dragon wants to kill V, and we have no reason to think V is scheduled to be written out of the story just yet. So the dragon will have something less than a dozen appearances before being killed or vanishing from the story.

Not nessicarily. Recurring villain? (Even though it's unlikely, it might come back. I mean, a dragon would be a pretty sweet recurring villian.)

[Alair]

I'm reasonably certain that it's the same dragon. (raised)

Why?

Rich's art upgrade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), as it were.

The dragon's text struck me as menacing, me personally, maybe mocking up a past relationship. (One of repeated suggestion spells and disintegrations)

I'd happily wager that this is that dragon's mother.

[Prak]

I'm not entirely sure why, but I'm hoping it isn't the dragon's mother, I'd rather it turn out to be V's Mentor, significant other, or the original dragon. It might be because dragons, as evil, (quasi)reptilian creatures, have little reason to form connections like that, and in fact by D&D canon (I'm not saying it's OotS canon, but precedent, regardless) dragons don't form such connections with their children. The only common relationship between a chromatic dragon and their child is Master/Henchman.

I also think it'd be better story wise to not have some big po'ed female dragon that's related to a throw away npc a couple strips back. Even having V be a dracophile who's lover get's turned on by watching him kill things with disintegrate would be better in my mind. However, it being V's lover is highly unlikely, as I don't think we'll ever meet him/her, because to do so would be to shed even a small amount of light on V's gender, which is, I assume, too great a running gag in Rich's mind to get rid of.

however, chances are it's mommy.

[Kish]

Even having V be a dracophile
If Vaarsuvius saw black dragons as anything other than XP and treasure fodder, s/he would probably have tried talking to the one they met earlier, rather than leading with Suggestion when s/he discovered it spoke Lizard.

[Finwe]

I'm not entirely sure why, but I'm hoping it isn't the dragon's mother, I'd rather it turn out to be V's Mentor, significant other, or the original dragon. It might be because dragons, as evil, (quasi)reptilian creatures, have little reason to form connections like that.

Many evil beings have strong family ties, but little regard for anyone else. In most cannon, dragons are extremely protective of their eggs. I don't really see it being much of a stretch at all for an evil dragon to become attached to its young.

[Jaysyn]

Holy Crap.

Kubota was a shadow dragon with an Amulet of Dramatic / Cheating Death.

[Glome]

I don't why everyone jumps to the conclusion that because this dragon is probably related to the one that V. slew, that it is the mother. Why would a young adult dragon still be living with its mother when it should be out taking over its own territory and collecting its own horde? Only really young dragons would still be with their mother, the one V. killed is clearly too old.

It just makes a lot more sense to me if the dragon on the island is the mate of the one killed by V. The treasure that OOTS stole would also belong to this dragon as well, and she is undoubtedly looking both for revenge and to get her treasure back. Even if she knows about the rest of the OOTS, Roy is already dead and Haley and Belkar are magically shielded from scrying. Going after V. is the logical next choice.

Of course it would be interesting to see if this dragon succeeded, whether she would go after Durkon next.

As for the Kubota theory, the imp wouldn't be looking for a new master if Kubota was somehow still alive (plus everything up to that point indicates he wasn't very strong).

Any other theory could be possible, but isn't anything we could possibly guess based on what Rich has told us so far. So it would be just pulling stuff out of our arse which is likely to be wrong.

[chiasaur11]

I'm betting "Yes."

Seems everybody is starting to regret that kill.

[Adderfield]

Well, the dragon calling Vaarsuvius by name strongly suggests that this isn't a random black dragon attack. This Is Personal.

Which would mean it either IS the original dragon somehow reconstituted and resurrected, or its a close relative of it.

Also, that would be way better storytelling than just "oh a black dragon shows up to menace V." While a particularly snarky black dragon could just show up and mock V by saying "Say disintegrate one more time" just after overhearing V cast it so much at Qaar [though how would it know V's name?]... it'd be way more interesting if this were vengeance being sought. Not to mention it'd be a fun subversion of classic gaming to have that throwaway black dragon turn out to NOT just be XP existing in a vacuum and waiting to be harvested by the heroes, but actually have a life and a family that would miss him, and there actually being consequences and affects to Disintegrating it.

I would also not rule out the possibility of Qaar resurrecting the dragon as a "ringer" of sorts, to perhaps scare V into being more willing to renegotiate.

[Optimystik]

Although the dragon is in melee range, it seems to have acted a tad prematurely. V's only cast one 7th level spell, unless Bugsby's Expressive Digit also counts.

Then again, looking through the 7th level spell list I don't see much that could help him. I doubt he knows Limited Wish. Maybe Etherealness?

[Prak]

@Kish: This is true.


Many evil beings have strong family ties, but little regard for anyone else. In most cannon, dragons are extremely protective of their eggs. I don't really see it being much of a stretch at all for an evil dragon to become attached to its young.

this is true, but dragons typically only care about their young until the young adult-ish stage, then they kick 'em out, especially evil dragons.


I don't why everyone jumps to the conclusion that because this dragon is probably related to the one that V. slew, that it is the mother. Why would a young adult dragon still be living with its mother when it should be out taking over its own territory and collecting its own horde? Only really young dragons would still be with their mother, the one V. killed is clearly too old.
no one said they lived together. The scenario would be that the now-dead dragon took over the lair after it's mother left. This is actually even conceivable, as the lair may have gotten too small for the mother.


It just makes a lot more sense to me if the dragon on the island is the mate of the one killed by V. The treasure that OOTS stole would also belong to this dragon as well, and she is undoubtedly looking both for revenge and to get her treasure back. Even if she knows about the rest of the OOTS, Roy is already dead and Haley and Belkar are magically shielded from scrying. Going after V. is the logical next choice.
Dragons (typically) don't mate for life, especially the chromatics. The mate also wouldn't likely have been the one to bring the star metal to the lair, unless she's the draconic equivalent of a cougar or milf and the now-dead dragon is the draconic equivalent of a lucky bastard. Also the discovery of porn makes it unlikely he was mated.


Any other theory could be possible, but isn't anything we could possibly guess based on what Rich has told us so far. So it would be just pulling stuff out of our arse which is likely to be wrong.
Isn't that what usually happens?

[Optimystik]

I would also not rule out the possibility of Qaar resurrecting the dragon as a "ringer" of sorts, to perhaps scare V into being more willing to renegotiate.

Short of a Wish, I really don't see how Qarr could manage something like that. And if he was capable of reviving or even recruiting dragons, he wouldn't be likely to bother with Kubota at all.

[Corwin Weber]

The idea that this dragon is the previous dragon's seriously torqued-off mother.... there's another possibility that has occurred.....


Kubota has already scored a reincarnation spell.


:)

[teratorn]

Holy Crap.

Kubota was a shadow dragon with an Amulet of Dramatic / Cheating Death.

And "he" was the mother of the one at the cave. That explains everything!:smallcool:

[David Argall]

Kubota has already scored a reincarnation spell.

To take this more seriously than it needs to be, Reincarnate would have made Kubota a quite young dragon of about size medium. This thing is huge, and much beyond the ability of the spell to create.

[Corwin Weber]

To take this more seriously than it needs to be, Reincarnate would have made Kubota a quite young dragon of about size medium. This thing is huge, and much beyond the ability of the spell to create.




Young Adult, actually, so technically it would be around the same size as the one V killed..... Which actually works out HD wise, assuming Kubota was anywhere near Shojo's level. (Which as Shojo's nemesis, admittedly probably one of many, he probably was.) 16HD would be right about in the middle of the Young Adult category.

[Alair]

@Kish: This is true.

this is true, but dragons typically only care about their young until the young adult-ish stage, then they kick 'em out, especially evil dragons.

"Familial feeling" doesn't have to be the motive per se. Dragons are universally proud, right? Perhaps Mommy views the situation as being something more like "You insult my brood, you insult me".

[Berserk Monk]

This new dragon knows V's name. Does Qarr, the last black dragon, or Kubota know his/her name? I'm not sure, but I think they've only ever referred to V as "elf," or "wizard," or something else. Was there ever an instance one of them said it?

[Corwin Weber]

This new dragon knows V's name. Does Qarr, the last black dragon, or Kubota know his/her name? I'm not sure, but I think they've only ever referred to V as "elf," or "wizard," or something else. Was there ever an instance one of them said it?

I think that the going theory is that the current dragon is the mother of the one V killed and either had some kind of magical scrying in place, and so knows the details of her offspring's disintegration, or she went to the Oracle to find out what happened. Or both. Quarr, the previous dragon, and Kubota don't actually know V's name, (although Kubota might have, or not, doesn't really matter) but the Oracle does, and any Ancient dragon can afford that kind of information.

[Optimystik]

This new dragon knows V's name. Does Qarr, the last black dragon, or Kubota know his/her name? I'm not sure, but I think they've only ever referred to V as "elf," or "wizard," or something else. Was there ever an instance one of them said it?

Qarr likely knows it, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) but neither he nor V used it since arriving on the island. The last dragon also heard it when Haley told him to spit V out.

My bet is that Mommy somehow heard it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), since that's also when she would have heard V's trademark "Disintegrate."

[Caractacus]

On the available evidence, this is a fairly minor element. The dragon may be the element that makes V associating with Qarr seem reasonable, but the dragon wants to kill V, and we have no reason to think V is scheduled to be written out of the story just yet. So the dragon will have something less than a dozen appearances before being killed or vanishing from the story.

Naturally, I did not mean that the dragon itself would be a major character.

You make my point nicely with "The dragon may be the element that makes V associating with Qarr seem reasonable".

[Emanick]

If I remember Draconomicon correctly, the last age category at which a mother dragon is fertile is Old. So strictly by D&D rules (of course, it's probable Rich never even read that particular passage), this Ancient mother dragon can't be the Young Adult's mother, as Young Adults are 50-100 years old and it takes 200 years for a dragon to progress from Very Old to Ancient.

I suppose it's possible that it's wearing a draconic Belt of Femininity/Masculinity, as male dragons are fertile at Very Old. :smallbiggrin:

[Corwin Weber]

If I remember Draconomicon correctly, the last age category at which a mother dragon is fertile is Old. So strictly by D&D rules (of course, it's probable Rich never even read that particular passage), this Ancient mother dragon can't be the Young Adult's mother, as Young Adults are 50-100 years old and it takes 200 years for a dragon to progress from Very Old to Ancient.

I suppose it's possible that it's wearing a draconic Belt of Femininity/Masculinity, as male dragons are fertile at Very Old. :smallbiggrin:

Draconomicon's supplimental, not core. The Giant may or may not be using it. He's used material outside of the core rules before, but it seems to be on an 'as I feel like it' or 'as it fits the story' basis.

[Rotipher]

Plus, that's assuming that Quarr can accurately identify a black dragon's age category after seeing it for all of five or six seconds. Fearsome predators which are menacing you IRL tend to look larger than they actually are, and I doubt if a Lawful Evil imp's been hanging out with enough Chaotic Evil dragons to know precisely how big they are at specific ages.

[pjackson]

Belkar's player plays the Belkster as only an obnoxious Middle School kid can! (I know. I taught school for a while.


You are wrong though. I know of at least one adult who could play Belkar.

[magic9mushroom]

You are wrong though. I know of at least one adult who could play Belkar.


Wrong thread.

[DigoDragon]

This black dragon could be the mother of the disintegrated one from way earlier. It makes sense in my mind, especially with all the stories I've read about dragons who go on long quests for revenge. Fun times.

[hamishspence]

to have an Ancient Silver Zombie Dragon requires Draconomicon- under the normal rules, zombies max out at 20 HD in MM (double the base HD of the creature)

Whereas, in Draconomicon, Zombie Dragons and Skeletal Dragons have no HD maximum. And can be created with Animate Dead. A 17th level cleric could create the zombie dragon.

[Kranden]

Few things interesting I noticed, Vaarsuvious said Disintegrate 4 times to Qaar which lead to a black dragon attacking V whom is Identified as a female dragon by our demon friend whom V just spoke 4 words to.

hmmm.:smallbiggrin:

[AceOfFools]

This dragon very definitely sought Vaarsuvius out. It has "information" regarding the elf's arcane talents.

Being related to the young adult dragon makes for one very good reason for the big bad dragon to do so.

[Optimystik]

Few things interesting I noticed, Vaarsuvious said Disintegrate 4 times to Qaar which lead to a black dragon attacking V whom is Identified as a female dragon by our demon friend whom V just spoke 4 words to.

hmmm.:smallbiggrin:

*Rolls up newspaper*
*Smack*

[Corwin Weber]

*Rolls up newspaper*
*Smack*

Forget the 'yet another thread' issue.... I'm still trying to figure out the four words bit.... I mean.... sure V ended with four words.... like most sentences.... but.....

* confuzzled *

** edit **

DOH.

Nevermind. Four words. Ok now I know what the post is referring to. Ima just go sit in a corner, k?