Input for a project

[TheUdjat]

So... I'm usually pretty hesitant about sharing my ideas with the masses, because I play with the rules, balance, and just generally am obsessed with changing things. But, this is a particular idea I've been getting attached to, and I'd like it to see the light of day sometime in the future. I think, to get it to work, I need input.

Be gentle, this is my first time. :)

Having read through some of the articles in the 'Gaming' section of GITP, particularly the New World thread, I was inspired. I get inspired like this pretty much every week. This is not as cool as you might think (but I digress). For a solid month or so, I have been fixated on creating a new setting. Unfortunately, because of the way I go about these things, it is conceptually much different from the standard D&D fare.

I'll skip to the point. My main problem is this: Magic. I want it to work especially different in this world, and part of that is toning it down. It would be silly to assume this idea alone is original. How have some of you others done this already? How do you tone it down, but keep the balance? Specifically, here are some of my aims:

1. I never liked that Clerics had to prepare spells. It never made sense to me that they had to pre-arrange a list with a deity. But as divine spells are often support-like it nature, it is tricky to balance a spontaneous divine caster (Dragonlance attempts the Mystic, for instance, but I think it is comparatively underpowered). I also dislike how combat-oriented clerics are, and would wish to move them away from that (I've read the Divine Agent posted somewhere on here, and liked many of the ideas there)

2. Similarly, I have this same problem with Paladins. I also have never liekd that champions of the gods have to be Lawful Good. I've been thinking up some alternative, to make a non-specific Champion-type. I think this has been done before, possibly officially. Can someone clue me in?

3. Druids are gone. At least, as a separate class. I want to merge them with Clerics, so that a cleric that worships a nature-oriented deity is effectively like a cleric. This poses some obvious problems (spell lists, special abilities, etc.)

4. Arcane casters are conceptually much different. I am having a lot of trouble representing this in rules. Specifics: In this setting, a 'first race' was largely destroyed/scattered by some catastrophic event, leaving behind scores of ruins and artifacts (well, magic items, not necessarily artifacts). It has been my vision that these relics are the only magic items (which effectively removes item creation). Following this, I wanted a class of casters that specifically focused on reviving ancient magical weapons and items. Sort of an Artificer/Alchemist class. I've been looking at Eberron for ideas, but don't know if it's quite right...

5. The other arcane casters are my biggest balance problem. I can tone down the other casters, I think, with relatively little trouble. But here's my trouble. Part of my vision for this world is that magic does not, by any means, come from the self. It comes from deities, or it comes from Lovecraft-inspired anti-god 'demons' that crazed sorcerers make pacts with to take power. To this end, I wanted some way to reflect that these casters are more powerful than the others, but have weaknesses to compensate - longer casting time, worse accompanying abilities, and very limited versatility. I'm not sure how to effectively do this.

Upon reflection, it was probably very silly of me to conceptualize a world that required massive changes to the magic system, and therefore the magic-using classes. But, well, I can't help it. That's just where my ideas took me. :-/ I know there's a lot up there, and I don't expect anyone to magically solve this. But any input and/or links to past projects of a similar nature would be much appreciated.

[Fax Celestis]

1. There's a variant in Unearthed Arcana (or the variant section of the SRD (http://d20srd.org/)) that has rules for spontaneous clerics.

2. The Favored Soul out of Complete Divine might be up that alley. Unfortunately, it's not free liscense, and you'll need to acquire the book itself.

3. Getting rid of Druids is a viable option. Perhaps replacing them with the Spirit Shaman (also out of Complete Divine) and tinkering with the spell list may be appropriate.

4. Something akin to the Artificier is probably most appropriate.

5. Perhaps other arcane casters could be replaced with something like the Shadowcaster (from Tome of Magic), a variant of which I've started making myself, here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11587234 37;start=).

Hope that helps some.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1. I never liked that Clerics had to prepare spells. It never made sense to me that they had to pre-arrange a list with a deity. But as divine spells are often support-like it nature, it is tricky to balance a spontaneous divine caster (Dragonlance attempts the Mystic, for instance, but I think it is comparatively underpowered). I also dislike how combat-oriented clerics are, and would wish to move them away from that (I've read the Divine Agent posted somewhere on here, and liked many of the ideas there)

Well, in my homebrewed campaign, I basically wrote up a variant on cleric which has abilities dependant on the diety that cleric followed. For example, followers of the diety of healing could spontaniously cast cure and heal spells, but simply could not cast inflict spells, death spells, or most Evocations either. Basically, it's bringing back the old Spheres concept from 1st ed, then tossing in a few extra goodies. For example, the diety of healing is a total pacifist, so clerics of that diety don't get simple weapons, or any armor, however they are automatically targeted last by any potential opponent, and would nearly always be captured rather than killed.


2. Similarly, I have this same problem with Paladins. I also have never liekd that champions of the gods have to be Lawful Good. I've been thinking up some alternative, to make a non-specific Champion-type. I think this has been done before, possibly officially. Can someone clue me in?

In this same homebrewed campaign, a Paladin is a prestige class requiring Cleric and Fighter levels, as well as the alignment of the diety itself.


3. Druids are gone. At least, as a separate class. I want to merge them with Clerics, so that a cleric that worships a nature-oriented deity is effectively like a cleric. This poses some obvious problems (spell lists, special abilities, etc.)

Yea, I had that same issue. Basically, I came up with a Nature type sphere, merged the druid and cleric spellists, ditched the overpowered shapeshifting, and had fun.


4. Arcane casters are conceptually much different. I am having a lot of trouble representing this in rules. Specifics: In this setting, a 'first race' was largely destroyed/scattered by some catastrophic event, leaving behind scores of ruins and artifacts (well, magic items, not necessarily artifacts). It has been my vision that these relics are the only magic items (which effectively removes item creation). Following this, I wanted a class of casters that specifically focused on reviving ancient magical weapons and items. Sort of an Artificer/Alchemist class. I've been looking at Eberron for ideas, but don't know if it's quite right...

Well, stick in a new skill: Knowledge (Archaeology) and use it to be able to recognise and identify ancient stuff, then allow those with 5+ ranks of that skill to become fluent in the ancient language to be able to easily translate it. From there, just make it a typical Wizard, with that skill, and give him interesting quests required to use/activate/whatever the items.


5. The other arcane casters are my biggest balance problem. I can tone down the other casters, I think, with relatively little trouble. But here's my trouble. Part of my vision for this world is that magic does not, by any means, come from the self. It comes from deities, or it comes from Lovecraft-inspired anti-god 'demons' that crazed sorcerers make pacts with to take power. To this end, I wanted some way to reflect that these casters are more powerful than the others, but have weaknesses to compensate - longer casting time, worse accompanying abilities, and very limited versatility. I'm not sure how to effectively do this.

I also had this issue which I think I resolved in my homebrewed campaign. In short: Wizards must specialize, the schools prohibited to them are a bit more restrictive, and they get a 10% ASF to cast any spell not in their specialization which they are able to cast (not prohibited). Then I replaced the feats every five levels with abilities based on the school of specialization. In short, Magic is an extremely difficult craft to learn, and it will change you as you persue it.

Sorcerers were forced to choose a bloodline, which also affected which spells they could take and granted abilities every five levels. It also sometimes gave situational issues, like being a draconic bloodline sorcerer showing up at a dragon's doorstep was less likely to get randomly eaten.


Upon reflection, it was probably very silly of me to conceptualize a world that required massive changes to the magic system, and therefore the magic-using classes. But, well, I can't help it. That's just where my ideas took me. :-/ I know there's a lot up there, and I don't expect anyone to magically solve this. But any input and/or links to past projects of a similar nature would be much appreciated.

It may be silly, but I think it's a good idea. I may still have some of my rules for my homebrewed campaign around if you're interested.

[TheUdjat]

It may be silly, but I think it's a good idea. I may still have some of my rules for my homebrewed campaign around if you're interested.

I would very much like to see it. Your ideas intrigue me, and many are along what I had considered (including the deity-specific abilities. I hadn't mentioned that one).

[TheUdjat]

1. There's a variant in Unearthed Arcana (or the variant section of the SRD (http://d20srd.org/)) that has rules for spontaneous clerics.

2. The Favored Soul out of Complete Divine might be up that alley. Unfortunately, it's not free liscense, and you'll need to acquire the book itself.

3. Getting rid of Druids is a viable option. Perhaps replacing them with the Spirit Shaman (also out of Complete Divine) and tinkering with the spell list may be appropriate.

4. Something akin to the Artificier is probably most appropriate.

5. Perhaps other arcane casters could be replaced with something like the Shadowcaster (from Tome of Magic), a variant of which I've started making myself, here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11587234 37;start=).

Hope that helps some.

Thank you for the links! I've been perusing them for the last half hour or so. How did I not know this existed? (Apparently, my SRD link is vastly outdated)

Anyway, thanks again for your help, some of these variants on the SRD are excellent (some... not so much). I like your class, as well.

[Fax Celestis]

You're welcome.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, I found some of the magic rules in an old .txt file, but it doesn't have everything in it. Here's what I have so far, see if ya like it:

Altered Magic Rules:
1) Any wish, lesser wish, or miracle spell DOES NOT EXIST. Remove them completely from the book. Do not let the players use them.

2) Magic Item Creation is extremely difficult. See below for details.

3) Disallow ANY spellcasting prestige class. Invariably, prestige classes for arcane casters make an already powerful class completely broken. Besides, with the abilities I'm putting in, they shouldn't NEED a prestige class.

4) There is no such thing as a 'general mage'. Every wizard MUST specialize in a school of magic, and must therefore be subject to the limitations of that specialization. Just as Clerics have their domains, and Psions have their specialists, so do Wizards. Sorcerers have Bloodlines which will affect what they can do.

5) Schools have a different set of prohibited schools than listed in the 3.5 book. the restrictions are as follows:

This area still under work, but in general, the wizard must choose one additional school prohibited

6) Wizards have a 10% arcane spell failure chance to cast any spell that is not in their specialist school that they are allowed to cast. For example, an Illusionist is prohibited from the Evocation school, but not from the Transmutation school. If an illusionist wishes to cast a Transmutation spell, he suffers an additional 10% arcane spell failure chance. This is above and beyond (and stacks with) any other arcane spell failure chance (such as wearing armor). Universal spells are considered to be in the wizard's school of specialization.

7) Wizards do *NOT* get one bonus feat every five levels. Instead, they get special abilities on a per-specialist basis.

8) Wizards that multiclass into sorcerer do *NOT* gain the ability to use any magic item without restriction, nor may they gain any spells as a sorcerer from any school prohibited by their specialization. They still may not use any magic items that reproduce the effects from a prohibited school. Thus an illusionist5/sorcerer1 may not learn Magic Missiles as a sorcerer spell, nor may he use a wand of magic missiles.

9) Wizardry is seen by the common populous with fear and revulsion for the most part. Wizardry involves working with forces that common belief deem things man should not meddle with. Thus wizards get a -1 per level on any social rolls where he is trying to interact in a friendly manner (such as Diplomacy, or a Bluff check to be friends if they are aware you are a wizard).

10) DO NOT allow ANYTHING that is not from a CORE rulebook (which is to say, PHB 3.5, MM 3.5, DMG 3.5, and Expanded Psionicist Handbook). This will eliminate game-breaking feats from entering your game.

Item Creation
The crafting of a magic item is a long, tedious, and sometimes dangerous prospect.

The first step is researching the proper formula. To research a magic item formula, you will need access to a Magic Library and a Magic Labratory. Both of these are not common, as there are not many mages in this world of reduced magic. Doing so is not unlike a Craft check, in that it will require several checks to finish an item. First, the GM sets a DC for the difficulty of the Spellcraft check (I was thinking along the lines of DC 15+spell level for scrolls and potions, DC 20 + spell level for wands, and much higher for other magic items). If the check succeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result X the DC => the price of the magic item, then you have completed the research. If it doesn't, then it represents the progress made this week. Record the number, and every time you succeed, add the result to the total. If you fail a check by 4 or less, you simply make no progress. If you fail by 5 or more, you must make a will save DC equal to the DC of the research. Even if you succeed, you loose all aquired research up to this point. If you fail... hehe... any number of bad things can happen. The character could come up with a flawed recipie (guarenteed to have a potential calamity, see below), or could simply be unable to continue researching the formula for that item. Formula research costs 1,000 gold per week in materials, lab fees, bribes to other wizards to part with certain information, and so forth.

Once the wizard has a formula (or at least thinks he does...), he may begin the process of crafting the item. First, you must pay 2/3 of the production costs up front, plus the GM may require specific items not covered by this gold cost which might require and adventure to obtain (ex. to create a wand of fireball, you would need the fertile but unhatched egg of a red dragon, which would certainly not be available at your local general store). These items must be aquired and present before creation can begin. The GM may also require the creation at a certain spot, in which case you must bring everything you need to make it (and to still live, like food and water and stuff) with you to the place.

Each item creation feat has a corrosponding Craft feat that must be used in conjunction. Thus to create a scroll, you must purchase the feat Scribe Scroll, then you would make a series of Spellcraft checks to do the research, then you would need to make a series of Craft (scroll scribing) checks to actually make it. If you fail any of the Craft checks by more than 5 (or roll a natural 1, or are using a flawed recipie), then you have a chance of calamity. These can include such unplesant effects as blowing yourself up (take Xd6 where X is equal to number of weeks you've been working, reflex save for half DC = the DC of the roll you just screwed up. If it is a calamity caused by a false recipie, the number of dice is equal to half the caster's level, or by using the previous formula, whichever is greater), or perhaps Brainburn (loos e all memorized spells, take 1d4 damage per spell lost, will save DC of the craft DC for half, plus he must make a will save with the same DC next time he attempts to memorise a spell. Failure means he takes 1d4 per spell he was trying to memorise and he is unable to memorise spells. This will continue until he successfully memorises a spell). At the very least, reguardless of what other concequences, a calamity will waste all the materials, including rare quested items.

Furthermore, the wizard must create the item he is to enchant for any ring/rod/staff/weapon/armor/wonderous magic item. Scrolls, Potions, and wands do not fall in this catagory. This must be done AFTER he has the recipie, because the recipie will dictate the specific materials and methods for crafting the item. Furthermore, the GM may specify certain materials to use that would not normally be available on the general market for sale, and require the wizard to obtain them before he can craft the item, which must be done before he can make the craft check For example, the wizard has finished his recipie to create a Cloak of Displacement. It must be made of a tanned Displacer Beast hide. So he has to go out displacer beast hunting, then find some way to tan it before he may continue his item creation.

This way, a DM can have recipies as treasure items from NPC's skilled as wizards, which would be invaluable to the right person, and could either be sold to the right wizard for lots of cash, or used by a PC. Likewise, a PC might be able to purchase a recipie, but it would likely be very expensive. Be ware con-men who have bogus recipies for sale...

Special abilities

At 1st, 5th, and every 5th level thereafter, they gain a special ability based on their specialization.

Abjurer

An abjurer is a bulwark of defense, his spells focused on keeping his friends alive and well. Even the populous at large see them as a mostly benign and benificial person. He is not affected by the reaction penalty that most other wizards are (See restriction 9 above).

At 5th level, his effective caster level for casting any Abjuration benificial spells is increased by one for the purposes of determining duration and effect (Thus a Resist Energy spell cast by a 6th level abjurer will last for 70 min, and will grant a resistance of 20 against the chosen energy type). He begins a subtle transformation, his skin starts to thicken, granting him a +1 natural armor bonus to AC. A spot check DC (25-wizard's level) is necessary to notice this.

At 10th level, they gain expanded knowledge into spells of protection. The duration for any protective abjuration spell they cast is extended as follows:

Duration of 1 round/level is now a duration of 1 min/level
Duration of 1 min/level is now a duration of 10 min/level
Duration of 10 min/level is now a duration of 1 hour/level
Duration of 1 hour/level is now a duration of 1 day
Any abjuration spells with a duration of one day or more have their duration increased by one day. They gain an additional point of natural armor, for a total of +2

At 15th level, his protective abjuration spells duration are increased by an additional time unit as per the table above. Furthermore, the Abjurer gains a +10 on all dispel checks, and his natural armor bonus increases again to a total of +3.

At 20th level, he is considered to be a native outsider. His subtype changes to outsider, and spells that specifically target Humanoids no longer affect him. However, he can be hedged in by a Protection from Alignment spell keyed against his alignment. He gains a DR of 5/- and his natural armor bonus goes up to a total of +4.

Conjurer
A conjurer is a potent wizard, able to summon aid in battle, with some damaging spells and a hefty chunk of utility spells. Conjurers gain an additional 4 skill points at first level and one additional skill point per level thereafter which may only be spent on Craft skills.

At 5th level, his summoned minions are more potent. Any creature summoned gains +1 hit point per HD, and +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls.

At 10th level, all of his creations (such as minor creation) and any summoning spells have their duration doubled.

At 15th level, all summoned beings have maximized hit points for their HD, +2 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls, +1 dodge bonus to AC, and stay for twice as long. This replaces (does not stack) with the bonuses granted at 5th level. In addition any Conjuration spells which inflict damage do an additional +1 damage per die

At 20th level, he may make mundane items that are so real they do not expire. Treat this as a permenancy spell cast on the created object, however the caster must spend 500 xp on any mundane item or 1,000 xp on any item made of rare metals (as per Major Creation, page 252 in PhB 3.5). He cannot make any item made of precious metals or gems permenant.

Diviner
Seer of the unseen, possessing an uncanny knack for knowing what is happening around them, and what is to come. Diviners gain 8 additional skill points at first level, and an additional 2 per level thereafter. These skill points MUST be used on Knowledge (type) skills. Also, Sense Motive is a class skill.

At 5th level, a Diviner gains a vast repetoire of knowledge, effectively identical to Bardic Knowledge, using his Diviner levels + int mod for the check.

At 10th level, the diviner's uncanny knowledge of his surroundings give him Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2, and a +1 insight bonus to AC. He also gains his Int mod as an unnamed bonus to any Sense Motive check.

At 15th level, he gains Improved Uncanny Dodge, and as a chance of spotting ambushes. Just before a Diviner is attacked from ambush, he gets a Will save DC 25. If he succeeds, his 'spidey sense' kicks in, alerting him to the attack, and granting him one move-equivelant action before the ambush hits and preventing him from being flat-footed. His insight bonus to AC increases to +2.

At 20th level, their prescience gives them the evasion ability and a total of +3 insight bonus to AC. Furthermore, he has a chance of piercing scrying barriers. He makes a caster level check, as though to overcome the spell resistance, with a 'spell resistance' equal to the caster level + int mod + level of spell blocking the scry. If the Diviner is successfull, he is able to bypass the barrier and scry normally.

Enchanter
One of the more subtle of the magic users, yet no less dangerous. An enchanter does not normally display any outward signs of being a wizard. Their magic does not alter their form to the degree that some of the other specialists do. As a result, they will not gain the normal penalty to reaction unless he is proven to be a magic user, in which case he automatically gets double the penalty and no reaction worse than 'hostile' (or possible 'Scared witless') possible. Diplomacy and bluff are class skills for Enchanters.

At level 5, the Enchanter adds her charisma bonus to the DC of all his enchantment spells.

At level 10, he gets the feat Leadership, slightly modified. He does not get any of the modifiers found on page 106-107, as it is his magical powers that sends out a siren's call to those suceptable. They will never become demoralized, and are Fanatically loyal to the enchanter. Any losses will be replaced in 20-spellcaster level days.

At level 15, He gets a +2 to his charisma. An enchanter makes his spells harder to see cast; add his Charisma modifier as a circumstance modifier to the DC of a spellcraft check to determine what spell he is casting, and a DC of 15 to recognise that he is even casting a spell at all. Note that he will still need to meet all verbal and somatic components (unless he take still or silent spell feats), however they just don't seem as 'magical' to the unlearned. He may also add his Charisma mod as an unnamed bonus to the DC of any Enchantment [Mind Affecting] spell he casts.

At 20th level, the enchanter becomes able to bend the will of any who meets their eyes. They gain the spell-like ability to charm monster as a gaze attack as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, at will.

Evoker

The evoker is a master of the elements, who harnesses pure magical might to blast away any who would dare question his power. As a result, all reaction penalties are doubled when it is clear he is an Evoker, as they are universally feared and hated by the populous. At first level, they get the feat Spell Focus: Evocation, and Spell Penetration (for the school of Evocation only) free. Also, the Evoker chooses one of the four elements: Fire, Acid, Lightning, or Ice. This is the element he is particularly attuned to, although he can cast any other element without penalty, special bonuses are further applied to that specific element as he grows in power. Furthermore, his element will mark him in some way. A fire evoker will have fiery-red hair, or an ice evoker will have ice-blue eyes that seem to glow from within.

At 5th level, the evoker gets the feat Energy Substitution (his element of choice). He also gains energy resistance 5 for the element of his choice. The mark of his element becomes slightly more severe. A fire evoker might feel hot to the touch, a lightning evoker might have a great deal of static-buildup causing all sorts of wardrobe issues and poofy hair.

At 10th level, they gain Greater Spell Focus and Greater Spell Penetration for the element of their choice. Furthermore, their energy resistance increases to 10, and the effective spell level is increased by one for purposes of determining variables based on spell level such as number of dice for damage, range, and DC. Also, any spell of the chosen element cast does +1 damage per die. The elemental mark becomes still more severe, an ice evoker's breath might condense at room temperature, for example.

At 15th level, any metamagic feat applied to an Evocation spell of their element will have the level adjustment reduced by one, to a minimum of +1. Thus a silent fireball would still be a 4th level spell for a fire evoker, however a maximized fireball would only be 5th rather than 6th.The energy resistance increases to 15. The elemental mark becomes still more severe, something that would be an almost dead giveaway to even the most casual viewer. The fire evoker might leave charred footprints behind, for example.

At 20th level, the mage becomes an elemental, a native outsider, and can be hedged out by a circle of protection against either their alignment or their element of choice. They gain DR 10/magic, and a nimbus of energy. Their unarmed attacks do an additional 1d6 damage of the appropriate element type, and anyone grappling the evoker takes 1d6 damage of the evoker's element every turn automatically with no save. They take double damage from the opposite alignment on a failed save, however. There is no mundane way to hide the elemental nature of the mage at this point, any disguise checks automatically fail, and even the most pig-ignorant dirt-farmer will realize the nature of the Evoker and run in fear. No reaction better than Hostile is possible, although generally the result will be fleeing in terror rather than attacking. Kingdoms will close their borders to the Evoker, and encourage him to go on elsewhere. They treat him more as an unnatural disaster rather than a person, and under no circumstances will he be welcomed anywhere, even if he obliterates the opponent army and saves the kingdom, they will simply be afraid he will do the same to them, and bribe him to go elsewhere. As a result, he gains a circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks equal to his level.

Illusionist

Illusionists, masters of magical tricks and prestidigitation. Some say that the illusionist is the weakest of any of the specialists due to the lack of combat-effective spells in their repitoire, others see how handy a well-placed illusion can save the party.

Illusionists get Bluff as a class skill, and also get another skill called Illusionweaving. Illusionweaving is used to make 'realistic' illusions. In short, it can be used to make an illusion look (or hear) 'real' enough that the person won't even think to disbelieve. The DC of doing this is dependant on the circumstances. To make an illusion of a pine tree in a pine forest, something that you have plenty of examples to copy and is fitting for the item to be there, would be DC 15. If a party was exploring caves and found they had to hide from a large army of goblins, the illusionist might 'wall' off a dead-end, making it seem like the corridor dead-ends before it actually does, might be a DC 20-25, depending on how familiar the goblins are with the caves. If they are fairly new to it, or were otherwise distracted, the DC might be 20, but if they are very familiar with the cave, or were taking time to carefully search for secred doors and such, the DC might be 25, or contested Illusionweaving vs their search check. Something that is obviously out of place starts out at DC 25. For example, a single pine tree in the middle of the rolling plains of the 'sea of grass' would be a DC 25. While it might be theoretically possible for it to happen, it's highly unusual, and certainly something to cause suspicion. Something that is simply outragous (such as creating the illusion of a white dragon that is the slave of the illusionist, which was not there a moment ago), starts out at DC 30 and goes up from there. Keep in mind that any illusions created in the presence of someone gets an automatic save, as something that was not previously there is suddenly there. Anyone witnessing the creation of the illusion will realize something funny is going on, no matter how realistic the illusion is, so any illusionweaving skill checks will automatically fail.

At 5th level, an illusionist may use a bluff check to oppose a spellcraft check to identify what spell the illusionsit is casting. If he is successfull, the opponent caster cannot determine what spell was cast. Alternately, an illusionist may use a bluff check when starting to cast a spell to keep people from realizing he is casting a spell. Thus Fade, the gnomish illusionist, begins to cast Alter Self to make the opponent mage look like an undead so the population as a whole will lynch him. The opponent mage gets a spellcraft check to determine what spell Fade is casting, and Fade gets to make a contested Bluff check. If Fade succeeds, the opponent will be unable to determine the spell cast. Alternately, Fade may make a Bluff check when starting his spell. If he succeeds, the opponent mage does not even realize that he is casting a spell, so cannot make a spellcraft check. NOTE: this does not eliminate the need for verbal or somatic components, this simply makes the verbal and somatic components incorperated into something less arcane-looking.

At 10th level, all shadow spells are 10% more real, to a maximum of 100% real. Also, the Illusionist can use alter self as a spell-like ability on himself only at will to change his appearance as he sees fit, within the limitations of the spell.

At 15th level, An illusionist can spontaniously cast any illusion with the figment or glamor subtype which he has scribed into his spellbook. The illusionist is also difficult to pin down when he doesn't want to be. At will, as a spell-like ability, the illusionist may use blur on himself.

At 20th level, it becomes even more difficult to pierce his illusions. Even when confronted with such things as true seeing, the illusion gets a will save (save as caster, vs the DC difficulty of the appropriate spell level cast by the one casting it). If it is successful, the scryer cannot penetrate the illusion, and is fooled into believing the illusion is real.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sorcerers

Sorcerers are born with an innate talent for magic which stems from a bloodline. As they progress in Sorcerer levels, that bloodline becomes more pronounced. Sorcerers are seen with just as much hatred as Wizards are, and persecuted just as harshly.

The nine bloodlines are as follows: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Fae, Undead, Draconic, Angelic, and Demonic. These bloodlines give benefits and penalties as follows:

I can't find my write-up for them, but in general, each one gets one free spell known per spell level, is prohibited from a set of spells, and gains abilities at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter based on the bloodline (for example, Air gets a Fly speed, Undead eventually gains the Undead type with all the good and bad things involved therein).

Clerical Magic

Okay, here's how I did this. Every diety has Domains and Spheres which they have. Each Sphere has granted powers and restrictions as well as specific spell lists which the clerics can choose from. If a spell is not in one of the Spheres that the diety has, then that cleric cannot cast that spell. Some dieties have specific things which they require their followers to do. The clerics of these dieties MUST do these things when they come up, or they loose ALL spellcasting and clerical benefits until they Atone. For example, in my campaign, the diety of Magic required their clerics to go find those places which were warped by magic and try to fix them. If a cleric of that diety found such an area, and did nothing to try to fix it or even find out what was warping it and how to try, then that cleric would loose all spellcasting and any abilities granted by being a cleric (such as turning undead).

For example, the Sphere Healing would include all spells with the Conjuration (healing) descriptor, plus any spell which cures a negative status ailment. Furthermore, it may grant the cleric the ability to lay on hands as a paladin, but it would prohibit the cleric from being able to cast any Inflict spells, any spells with the Death descriptor or would cause a death effect, and would reduce the cleric's weapon list to the wizard list rather than all simple weapons and also reduce BAB to 1/2 rather than 2/3.

The Nature Sphere would likely have most of the Plant and Animal spells from both Cleric and Druid spell lists, and would grant Wild Empathy and possibly an Animal Companion, and be as close to a Druid as you'd get in this campaign.

Most dieties have two or three spheres, and a cleric of that diety would have access to any of the spells in any of the spheres that the diety possesses, and the Cleric would have all the abilities and limitations of all the spheres which that diety possesses. For example, a diety with both the healing and nature domains would be able to cast any Conjuration (healing) spell plus any Plant or Animal spell, have 1/2 BAB, wizard weapon list, wild empathy, and an animal companion.

Feel free to carve up the druid and cleric spell lists into Spheres, then apply them to your dieties as you see fit, tack on special benifits and penalties, then put any finishing touches on the dieties to have the cleregy virtually a different class with a completely different spell list depending on the diety they worship.

Paladins

Paladins are a Prestige Class requiring levels in Cleric and some sort of melee class. It also requires DM's permission to enter the PrC.

Prerequsites:
BAB +5
Access to a militant Sphere (usually War or Protection, but this can be changed at the DM's whim)
all melee weapon proficencies
The would-be Paladin must first be reccomended by a paladin and trained before he is allowed to be dubbed. The character must also follow all restrictions set forth by his diety and retain all spellcasting and clerical abilities in addition to doing whatever the paladins require of him during his training session.
The character must have the alignment of his diety. No variance is allowed, and should hsi alignment change, he looses all Paladin abilities

You can customize what a Paladin gains depending on the diety he follows. For example, a nature and protection based diety might be a Ranger/Cleric/Paladin and have abilities suited to being a protector of nature.

In general, Paladins keep all sphere related abilities and penalties, but loose all spellcasting to gain a number of abilities. Typically, these abilities are in line with the goals of the diety. For example, a diety like Heironious who emphasises Valor in combat might grant his paladins the ability to add Cha mod to all saves, Smite Evil, and in general, act like a typical Paladin might, and be a Fighter/Cleric/Paladin, and his Code of Honor would be much like the one written in the PhB. However, a Paladin of Vecna, on the other hand, would likely be able to do a Harmtouch (the inverse of Lay on Hands), still get a bonus to all saves based on Cha (as a Profane bonus), and have a very different code of honor.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I don't like making Paladin a PrC, mostly because it really is a brilliant and flavorful idea that far too many people hve become complacent about. The reason that I dislike the pre-reqs is that a holy warrior for the forces of good isn't a soldier who has been ordained by the church, she's a trained guardian and crusader for the ideals and commandments of her order. This would mean that she makes a point of following those cammandments for extended periods of time, usually from birth, and that the deity's blessing, burden and attention would be upon her in what she did.

If you really want to make a Variant, then you could always go for a slightly more 'realistic' approach. Tone down the spell-list even further, to the point where that only personal buff spells and minor heal spells can be used, and then put alot of inherent bonuses as class features: more uses of lay on hands, enhancement to weapons wielded, bonuses to AC and ability scores when doing actions related to her particular quest given by the deity in question. I actually like the Paladin as it is now, but if you're like me and get the occasional sudden urge to gut the current system for doing anything and the paladin was the first thing that came to mind, I hope this'll be some help.

I now get out of the driver seat and allow this hijack to end.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't like making Paladin a PrC, mostly because it really is a brilliant and flavorful idea that far too many people hve become complacent about. The reason that I dislike the pre-reqs is that a holy warrior for the forces of good isn't a soldier who has been ordained by the church, she's a trained guardian and crusader for the ideals and commandments of her order. This would mean that she makes a point of following those cammandments for extended periods of time, usually from birth, and that the deity's blessing, burden and attention would be upon her in what she did.

If you really want to make a Variant, then you could always go for a slightly more 'realistic' approach. Tone down the spell-list even further, to the point where that only personal buff spells and minor heal spells can be used, and then put alot of inherent bonuses as class features: more uses of lay on hands, enhancement to weapons wielded, bonuses to AC and ability scores when doing actions related to her particular quest given by the deity in question. I actually like the Paladin as it is now, but if you're like me and get the occasional sudden urge to gut the current system for doing anything and the paladin was the first thing that came to mind, I hope this'll be some help.

I now get out of the driver seat and allow this hijack to end.

Actually, that's rather my idea for making a Paladin PrC... although I'm more along the philisophy that a Paladin is one who listens to their diety of choice, and acts as his sword-arm in worldly matters.

And my PrC actually prevents the Paladin from casting spells, although they do get Sphere Abilities. I do like the idea of more self-buffs and bonuses, that is the sort of theme I'm looking at. However, my point of view on Paladin is that he is a fighter who joins the cleregy, but instead of setting aside his blade, he uses it to defend the charge given him by his diety.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, that's rather my idea for making a Paladin PrC... although I'm more along the philisophy that a Paladin is one who listens to their diety of choice, and acts as his sword-arm in worldly matters.

And my PrC actually prevents the Paladin from casting spells, although they do get Sphere Abilities. I do like the idea of more self-buffs and bonuses, that is the sort of theme I'm looking at. However, my point of view on Paladin is that he is a fighter who joins the cleregy, but instead of setting aside his blade, he uses it to defend the charge given him by his diety.
Perhaps you should look at the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) in the SRD/UA?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Sooooo...it's a paladin that requires six levels of cleric to begin taking levels in? It's a decent idae, but I still prefer the original paladin. Now as I said, lte's get this train back on its tracks and start reviewing the rest of the cariant ideas, shall we?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Perhaps you should look at the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) in the SRD/UA?

I don't like that for a number of reasons.

1) Lawful Good. I feel a Paladin should have an alignment which reflects the diety's.

2) Spellcasting. Heck, these get better spells than regular Paladins do.

3) Mounted Combat... umm, not all paladins are mounted...

4) I've never agreed with the Special Mount either

So in short, since I'm already going to fix the Paladin, I'm going to fix what was wrong with it as well...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sooooo...it's a paladin that requires six levels of cleric to begin taking levels in? It's a decent idae, but I still prefer the original paladin. Now as I said, lte's get this train back on its tracks and start reviewing the rest of the cariant ideas, shall we?

Or a level of cleric and several levels of Fighter.

So, what about the other ideas, particularly bringing back Spheres and limiting Clerics to certain spell lists depending on their choice of diety?

[Fax Celestis]

So, what about the other ideas, particularly bringing back Spheres and limiting Clerics to certain spell lists depending on their choice of diety?
I do like that.

Now, to note: I didn't mean that you hsould use the Prestige Paladin, but rather perhaps you could use it as a base for a Prestige Paladin of your own devising.

[TheUdjat]

I am less concerned about whether a paladin should be a prc or not. I'm glad that just variants exist, and I will definitely explore them. But a lot of my questions were solved by the d20 SRD variant.

I also had a thought while looking through that. Originally I had been thinking about turning Rangers into a non-casting class (there's gotta be an existing variant for that out there). But, after glancing at the Urban Ranger, a thought struck me.

If Paladins are champions of your typical LG deity (and they have variants for CG, LE, and CE, which is cool), then what would a Ranger represent, since we've done away with classic Druids? Why, champions of nature gods. And, coincidently, I have a God of Commerce and Trade in my campaign world, which an Urban Ranger fits nicely into.

I'm still not convinced that's what I'm gonna do, but they're interesting notions. And really, ultimately I'm not that worried about the Paladin. Getting Clerics squared away if far more important.

So onto that. I love the Spheres idea. The problem I encounter with this is actually going through the work to make these lists, balance these lists, and so forth. I could go ahead and list my pantheon if you guys would like to toy around with it, but I have pursued this path as well. I've come across some stumbling blocks:

1. How many spells in each circle? They should be balanced for each sphere, with relatively the same number for each level compared to one another (if one has 6 level 2 spells, all the others should).

2. How many spheres should a character get access to? Do they gradually get more?

3. How many spheres should each deity have available on their list?

4. Are 'special abilities' tied to spheres, or to the deities themselves?

I am 100% with you in regards to Wish/Miracle/Limited Wish being removed. I've also toyed around with limiting the use of Resurrection material, because I've always been somewhat unhappy with people getting access to Raise Dead at spell level 5.

I will probably not have Sorcerers. Your ideas are nice regarding them, but they don't fit the flavor of my world.

As for Wizards? Really good stuff. Off the top of my head, it seems a few Specialists are missing from your lists (Necromancy, Transmutation), and I'm very curious what you had in mind for them. I may have to look at their abilities closer, because while I do want them to be powerful, I would like to ensure that they're balanced with each other.

Still puzzling over the Artificer. Your item creation rules are good a challenging, but very complex. I would like something simpler, but still challenging, and hopefully only available to the Artificer. While I toyed with the idea of this being a variant Wizard... Again, doesn't fit the flavor. They get their magic from an entirely different source. I want that to be reflected. Generally, I picture them as a sort of Order of Hermes / Hermetic Order of Golden Dawn / Actual Midieval Alchemists type of class. I want some of that old flair of experimenting with items, substances, and what not. Almost bordering on scientific, but with a focus on experimenting on old magic relics and formulas.

I don't have the Eberron book. I may have to pick it up (they have soem neat ideas, I've heard). The biggest problem I have with the concept above is that, with a focus on using artifacts and items, how do I ensure they're balanced, without giving them crazy item creation abilities? Perhaps temporary enchantments and making MINOR items would work... or making previously enchanted items that one finds better. I don't know, letting it cook in my head for a bit.

And thanks again everyone for your input. I appreciate it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am less concerned about whether a paladin should be a prc or not. I'm glad that just variants exist, and I will definitely explore them. But a lot of my questions were solved by the d20 SRD variant.

I also had a thought while looking through that. Originally I had been thinking about turning Rangers into a non-casting class (there's gotta be an existing variant for that out there). But, after glancing at the Urban Ranger, a thought struck me.

If Paladins are champions of your typical LG deity (and they have variants for CG, LE, and CE, which is cool), then what would a Ranger represent, since we've done away with classic Druids? Why, champions of nature gods. And, coincidently, I have a God of Commerce and Trade in my campaign world, which an Urban Ranger fits nicely into.

There's a Ranger variant in Oriental Adventures, or the Legend of the Five Rings D20 suppliment, which does not gain spells, but instead gains bonus feats as a fighter whenever he would normally gain a new spell level. I would use that, personally.

And I always sort of saw the Ranger as the Nature's Paladin anyways. And Core Ranger, with the feats for spells variant, is perfect for that role.


So onto that. I love the Spheres idea. The problem I encounter with this is actually going through the work to make these lists, balance these lists, and so forth. I could go ahead and list my pantheon if you guys would like to toy around with it, but I have pursued this path as well. I've come across some stumbling blocks:

1. How many spells in each circle? They should be balanced for each sphere, with relatively the same number for each level compared to one another (if one has 6 level 2 spells, all the others should).

Well, the spheres themselves should balance, not necessarily the spell lists. Spheres can grant abilities and have limitations applied to them to make them balanced. For example, the Healing sphere has a lot of healing and curing spells (ressurection spells can be omitted, as the raising of a dead body involves putting his soul back from wherever it came from, and should only be allowed on a Divine Intervention request from the cleric to his diety), but it drops his weapons list and his BAB.


2. How many spheres should a character get access to? Do they gradually get more?
A cleric should have access to as many spheres as the diety he worships has. Perhaps the GM could state that the diety restricts lower level cleregy to specific spheres until they get higher levels, where the cleric would gain healing and buffspells at 1st level, but have to wait until 10th before he's allowed any of the smiting evil type spells


3. How many spheres should each deity have available on their list?
Depends on the diety in question. Take, for example, the Everquest diety Cazic Thule, Lord of Fear. His spheres granted would be Necromancy, Evil, Fear, Inflict, and Tyrrany. He would allow his clerics to cast any of the necromancy spells, plus any evil spells, or use any spell that has a fear effect, any of the inflict type spells, or any of the domination type spells. However, he wouldn't be able to cast even a Cure Light Wounds spell, since that isn't in Cazic's sphere of influence. But he would be a killer healer for his undead minions, whom he could use the Inflict series on.

You could even have Major and Minor spheres of influence. So if a diety had a Major sphere of Healing, he'd have all the cures, heals, and removal of status ailments. But if he only had a Minor sphere of Healing, he might only get the Cure series up to level 4. Major spheres would have all the sphere's granted abilities and restrictions, wheras the minor spheres do not have either.

Alternately, you could simply designate some spheres to be Minor and some to be Major and say each diety can have X many Major spheres and Y many Minor spheres he has access to. Of course, some dieties are simply more powerful than others, so perhaps this isn't the best way to do it.


4. Are 'special abilities' tied to spheres, or to the deities themselves?
As written, they are tied to the spheres, but I see no reason why a specific diety might not bestow a special ability on their followers.


I am 100% with you in regards to Wish/Miracle/Limited Wish being removed. I've also toyed around with limiting the use of Resurrection material, because I've always been somewhat unhappy with people getting access to Raise Dead at spell level 5.

Ahh, notice I said all the healing spells are in the healing sphere... said nothing about raise dead type spells. Feel free to restrict or prohibit them as you see fit.

One of the best responses from my players was in a campaign where we had a cleric of a very LG honor and justice type diety. A party member had died due to an unfortuante series of rolls, right before the big huge fight with the big uber bad guy. So the cleric goes down on his knees and asks the diety to please bring him back so that he might gain honor and glory in the upcomming fight. I, as the GM, smiled and took the ressurected character's player aside and had a chat with him. We did some RP between the character and the diety in question, and it was permitted for him to come back... until after that one fight was over. I even gave him some super cool abilities (I think it was a combo of Bless Weapon and Death Ward). But after that was over, and the big bad guy died, the player saluted the good guys... and fell over dead. He had achieved the ultimate honor and glory by being victorious in combat, and was called back to the reward he so richly deserved. Bards wrote epic tales of heroism about him, and in future campagins, that character's name came up as one of the heros of a previous era... which darn near brought a tear to that player's eye.


I will probably not have Sorcerers. Your ideas are nice regarding them, but they don't fit the flavor of my world.

I liked 'em, but I can understand why they might not fit


As for Wizards? Really good stuff. Off the top of my head, it seems a few Specialists are missing from your lists (Necromancy, Transmutation), and I'm very curious what you had in mind for them. I may have to look at their abilities closer, because while I do want them to be powerful, I would like to ensure that they're balanced with each other.

Yea, I am missing some specialists. In general, the Necromancers eventually become undead, and gain bonuses on casting necromancy-type spells. Transmuters get alter self type abilities, and eventually become shifters.


Still puzzling over the Artificer. Your item creation rules are good a challenging, but very complex. I would like something simpler, but still challenging, and hopefully only available to the Artificer. While I toyed with the idea of this being a variant Wizard... Again, doesn't fit the flavor. They get their magic from an entirely different source. I want that to be reflected. Generally, I picture them as a sort of Order of Hermes / Hermetic Order of Golden Dawn / Actual Midieval Alchemists type of class. I want some of that old flair of experimenting with items, substances, and what not. Almost bordering on scientific, but with a focus on experimenting on old magic relics and formulas.

Yea, I wrote them complicated and convoluted on purpose... just to make sure the players understood that they were likely not going to be allowed to make any. However, just requiring the formula as a series of Spellcraft checks, then a Craft check made by the wizard to make the item, before he can use the feat to enchant it, should do well. Keep in mind, you still have the option of requiring rare or unusual components which will require the party to go off adventuring to find (such as requiring the freshly tanned hide of a Displacer Beast to make a Cloak of Displacement from).


I don't have the Eberron book. I may have to pick it up (they have soem neat ideas, I've heard). The biggest problem I have with the concept above is that, with a focus on using artifacts and items, how do I ensure they're balanced, without giving them crazy item creation abilities? Perhaps temporary enchantments and making MINOR items would work... or making previously enchanted items that one finds better. I don't know, letting it cook in my head for a bit.

Spell storing abilities perhaps? As long as you keep it in an item, that spell slot is used until that item is used? Perhaps an ability to burn spell slots rather than charges for wands or staves? Or perhaps an ability to cast Identify without using the expensive material components or all that time? Ever considered Spelljammer items which require you to burn spell slots to get them to function? How about being able to apply any metamagic feat you know to anything you activate from an item by burning X spell slots? Eventually granting Detect Magic as a spell-like ability at will (much like the Paladin's Detect Evil ability)?


And thanks again everyone for your input. I appreciate it.

Heh, this has got me thinking of old times again... lot of fun