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View Full Version : [3.5] Roleplaying-related pondering.



Delaney Gale
2009-01-27, 01:23 PM
A cleric and a rogue/transmuter are playing at cards. They've kept this game up since they met, and they run about even- he ignores that she has cheat in her spellbook, she ignores that he has 15 ranks in Profession(gambler), and they generally have a good time.

The cleric and the rogue have a friend who is a greyguard. This greyguard has recently got a magic sword that, among its many enchantments, carries both the effect of a ring of truth and a compulsion to confront anyone he detects lying.

So, given that he must disrupt the game if he detects one of them lying:

1 - will he disrupt the game if one of them uses the Bluff skill?

2 - will he disrupt the game if he sees the rogue cast cheat?

3 - will he disrupt the game if the rogue casts cheat with the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick?

4 - will he disrupt the game if he sees the rogue casts cheat with the skill trick that allows her to make it appear as if she is casting a different 1st-level spell?

I play the rogue, and I want to know how badly I'm going to get fleeced by our gambling cleric :)

Athaniar
2009-01-27, 02:35 PM
I'm no expert, but does it really count as a lie if they don't speak any lies?

Quietus
2009-01-27, 03:35 PM
Depends on what, exactly, the Ring of Truth does. It's not a standard ring from the DMG (at least, it isn't on the SRD), and a quick Google search didn't produce any useful results.

If it simply acts as a "Detect Lies" spell, then it would either go off whenever one of you said you had something that you didn't, OR it would go off every single time you bluffed - raising when all you've got is a pair of fours, for example. In the first situation, since you really don't ever tell the person across the table what you've got in your hand, it wouldn't be disruptive. In the second, it would be INCREDIBLY disruptive, and you'd need to ask your friend to stay away from your card games, since he'd be getting involved far too often.

Tacoma
2009-01-27, 03:56 PM
When I raise in a card game, I am communicating that I think my hand is better than yours. If I really think my hand is better, there is no deception. One could argue that the act of raising is not a communication of facts but is just a use of a rule of the game. It's like turning over a Chance card in monopoly.

If you're going to get really liberal with what the Ring of Truth does, say it detects all deception. You'd notice:

Women who wear makeup to try to look younger (I'm not really pushing 40),
A man who grows a beard over an ugly scar (I don't want people to see my scar),
Someone who wears their nicest clothes to a job interview (I don't really dress this way and I probably won't after you hire me),
The kid who copies an answer from someone else's homework (I didn't know that answer but by putting my name on the top of my work I'm claiming that I did this work honestly),
The author who uses someone else's phrases (By putting my name on the cover and not citing the passage's source I claim that I invented that passage on my own),
The Wizard who casts Silent and Still spell (By concealing my casting I'm trying to make it seem like I'm not casting at all)

And you'd be forced to call them all on it.

But can the ring detect the plagiarism just by looking at the boy's test or the author's book? Or do you have to look at the person in the act of writing? Or just look at the person and see all their past misdeeds and falsehoods? (Like Unbreakable, which was a pretty cool alternative Paladin power for Detect Evil).

Bluff is inherently trying to convince someone of something, but it's not always something that's untrue. Imagine a castle gate guard who doesn't believe you're the doctor the prince sent out for. You might have to use Bluff to convince him of that truth.

Delaney Gale
2009-01-27, 06:53 PM
I guess this would be better rephrased as "which of these do you think counts as lying under magical lie detection?"

- any time you use the Bluff skill?
- casting a spell specifically for the purpose of cheating?
- hiding the same spell?
- hiding the same spell AND disguising it as another one?

Keeping the pally away could get difficult, as due to some more magical mayhem (our enemies replaced the cleric's deck of cards with a deck of many things purely for the lolz), the pally is head-over-heels in love with the rogue, and is somewhat jealous of her relationship with the cleric.

Keld Denar
2009-01-27, 07:30 PM
I'd say its only things spoken. It wouldn't be able to determine a lie written down, and I'm thinking it wouldn't recognize anything about a spell being cast, concealed or otherwise.

PS, hi Kalamazoo gamer! I used to play in Lansing, but I know quite a few people from the Kzoo area. Didn't think there were that many gamers over on that end of the state though. I'm long since removed from that crowd though.

Tokiko Mima
2009-01-27, 07:37 PM
I would think that logically, a truth spell would filter out white lies and deceptions that don't hurt anyone. What a truth spell is after is deliberate and intentional factual misrepresentations which usually actively injure or mislead the unwary. If this ring of truth is like zone of truth, it would actually prevent a person from taking actions or speaking lies. So if bluffing at cards counted, you would be *unable* to raise instead of being detected as a liar. You also get a saving throw, which only you and the DM should see.

shadowfox
2009-01-27, 07:56 PM
I, personally, don't believe that the Gray Guard has to do anything because you and the cleric cheat (or whatever). Nothing in the Paladin code says he can't witness lies being told, and, quite frankly, he's a Gray Guard. These guys can torture people, as long as it's for the power of good (quite frankly, I think Gray Guards should be Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good, but that's my opinion). So, really, he shouldn't even have to do anything if he catches one of you two lying.

Unless the whole "compulsion to confront anyone he detects lying" thing is from the sword.

Even then, half-truths and the withholding of information, by all means, is not lying. It's bluffing. In fact, if you raise the cleric, say, 20 GP, bluffing that you have a good hand when you really don't, that's perfectly fine. And you're not saying anything.

On the other hand, you can remind the Gray Guard that it's a perfectly legal action to raise the pot, even if you have a bad hand. If you're feeling particularly spiteful, you might want to bring up the justified acts of evil that he's done recently. But that's just mean.

Prometheus
2009-01-27, 08:10 PM
Only spoken (and perhaps written/telepathic/sign-language or other forms of word-based communication) should trigger the spell (at least, if it is at all in line with other magical lie detectors in the game and with rules that wouldn't spiral out of control). So any illusion-based magic wouldn't trigger it (unless it was used to display a statement that was false but not if it produced an illusion over the reality), any divination-based magic wouldn't trigger it (unless you were asked whether or not you did and you lied about it), and any game action wouldn't trigger it (even if you were trying to play as though you had different cards than you do). The only thing that would trigger it is if one of you confronted the other while playing in the presence of the lie-detector or if one of you used a lie while playing the game to unnerve your opponent (ie "So you think you can beat that full-house that I've got with the river, huh?"). If you have a gentlemen's agreement not to interfere with each other's cheating and Profession (gambler) doesn't actually involve any verbal lies, than you are good.

Delaney Gale
2009-01-28, 02:18 AM
Unless the whole "compulsion to confront anyone he detects lying" thing is from the sword.

Completely from the sword, in fact. It's one of many MacGuffins in a campaign full of MacGuffins.


You might want to bring up the justified acts of evil that he's done recently. But that's just mean.

Heh, I'll make sure to file that one away for other use. Mostly because despite the fact that he now appears to have CHA 24 to my character only, she's not forgetting their long, complicated love-hate relationship just because he was unfortunate enough to draw the Two of Cups :)


PS, hi Kalamazoo gamer! I used to play in Lansing, but I know quite a few people from the Kzoo area. Didn't think there were that many gamers over on that end of the state though. I'm long since removed from that crowd though.

Hi to you as well! Michigan's pretty much the same as always- cold, cold, snow, cold. I actually used to live in Richland (middle of nowhere SE Washington), and I've applied to U of Washington for grad :)

Keld Denar
2009-01-28, 11:29 AM
Well, if you get into U-Dub, I live only about 3 blocks from campus. Send me a forum PM next fall (or when ever you start) and maybe we can get a group going. I've been jonesin to play a Bard lately...or maybe a wizard...or maybe a barzard? OMG NEW WORD!

Delaney Gale
2009-01-28, 01:02 PM
Well, if you get into U-Dub, I live only about 3 blocks from campus. Send me a forum PM next fall (or when ever you start) and maybe we can get a group going. I've been jonesin to play a Bard lately...or maybe a wizard...or maybe a barzard? OMG NEW WORD!

I'd be totally down for gaming if I end up at U-Dub. Dibs on a rogue? :D