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Zergrusheddie
2009-01-28, 10:09 PM
Mr. Google has shown be many threads about making Archers. The problem is, the Archers tend to only do about 1d8+12 damage or something along those lines with a couple of attacks. The Swift Hunter is probably the most powerful, but to gain the advantage of the 6d6 Skirmish damage you need to move 20 feet meaning that you only get 1 attack. Can an Archer actually be successful enough to challenge a melee damage dealer?

A Rogue can go TWF and deal far more damage than an Archer and Barbarians and Fighters can go crazy and smash things with Power Attack-Leap Attack. In our last campaign, we had someone how focused on Archery. The Rogue, Duskblade, the Mystic Theurge, and the S&B Fighter did far more damage in a single hit than he could in a full round, though neither of us were optimized so he was probably just failing harder than the rest of us.

Best of luck
-Eddie

tyckspoon
2009-01-28, 10:18 PM
Yes.

Quick, dirty, (almost) core-only: A Clericzilla using Zen Archery. Dumps Dex, focuses on Wis and Strength. Apply the usual buff spells and Rapid Shot stuff using a Speed composite bow made for whatever his post-buff Strength score will be (or just shoot them normally if you can't afford the Dex for Rapid Shot.) Buy energy enhancements for your bow and/or arrows as cash allows- you should be getting more attacks more often, so just like a TWFer, bonus damage is your friend.

Out of core: Probably the most effective you can be without burning lots and lots of cash is using Skirmish + Greater Manyshot from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, which allows you to apply your Skirmish damage to each individual arrow.

J-H
2009-01-29, 12:09 AM
I've been thinking about this lately.

Yes.

Elf. Fighter 8, Duskblade 2, Arcane Archer 10...or something similar.

Start with Dex 20. At level 20, that's Dex 25.
Bow AB with non-magical gear and NO feat useage at level 20: 20 BAB + 7 dex + 5 AA arrow enchantment: 32.
A humanoid target with all +4 gear (plate 8+4, shield 2+4, NA+4, defl+4) has AC 36. This build can hit that using no magical equipment 80% of the time. 60% of the time at 440 feet. Add in weapon focus, precise shot, dex bonus gear, etc, and AB isn't a problem.

For damage, you have to look mostly to your bow. The bow doesn't need any enhancement bonuses, since the arrows take care of that... so instead of a Bow +5, you can have a +1 Speedy Bow of Acidic Electrical Ice (3d6)... plus a weapon specialization feat, and any STR from making it a Composite bow (say you start with 14 and get up to 20 from magic items) (+5).

Now you've got, say....
1d8 (base) + 5 (str) + 5 (AA arrow enchantment) + 2 (weap spec) + 3d6 (bow elemental) damage.... giving an average of 25 damage or so per shot, times 6 shots per round, with 3 of these being at 1 less (-2 rapid shot +1 haste) than your normal "almost never misses" AB. Figure one of the other 3 sequential attacks hit, and you're dishing out around 100 damage per round.

It doesn't match what the Ubercharger can do, or a high-STR half-ogre raging power attack Barbarian... but it's quite a bit of damage, and you can do it from several hundred feet away.

Figure a normal targeted melee character at 20 has 20d10 + 20*5 (CON) hp... 300hp. 3 rounds and he's dead, and you probably won initiative. If he can move 60'/rd (haste), and starts 200' away, you win. If you have a couple of melee'ers or a wizard to slow him down, he's dead meat.

If you're in an urban or cave campaign where the max range is 20', not quite so strong...

Anyone want to contribute improvements?

tyckspoon
2009-01-29, 12:18 AM
Figure a normal targeted melee character at 20 has 20d10 + 20*5 (CON) hp... 300hp. 3 rounds and he's dead, and you probably won initiative. If he can move 60'/rd (haste), and starts 200' away, you win. If you have a couple of melee'ers or a wizard to slow him down, he's dead meat.

If you're in an urban or cave campaign where the max range is 20', not quite so strong...

Anyone want to contribute improvements?

Not an improvement, really, but you're underestimating the safety of that range- people tend to forget about the Run action, but it's there. A 50' or 60' movement speed can get next to something a mere 200' away in a single round. Running prevents it from attacking in the same round, but you certainly won't get three safe rounds to pump arrows into your target (especially at high levels, where pretty much anything worth worrying about will fly, teleport, or both.)

Crier
2009-01-29, 01:14 AM
Yes an Archer build can be succeful, and even through core

Okay so This uses the Fighter, Rogue classes from the PHB
Human
Fighter 1
12 Strength 18 Dexterity other stats are what ever
level 1(Fighter); Weapon Focus Composite Longbow; Rapid Shot; Point Blank shot
level 2(Fighter);Precise Shot(no one likes getting shot in the ass)
level 3(Fighter);Improved Iniative
level 4(Fighter);Weapon Spec(Comp Longbow)(Strength to 13)

Okay so at level for you have a charecter that is shoowing at +8/+8 for its Ranged attack Bonus, and its 1d8+4 For damage its not so great but you got two shots, and you got the iniative, but at that level you are expecting some either Gloves of dexterity, or guantlets of oger strength

level 5(Fighter)
Level 6 (fighter) Many shot

now here is where things get fun..level 7 you are takeing Rogue, you get 1d8 sneak attack and at this time, yeah you got better gear magic arrows magic bows what have you so you been settling for what you could get you got a 10/5 RAB not bad, what every fighter typical has at that level, but you got Point Blanks shot 11/6 Weapon Focus 12/7 and with rapid you are looking at 10/10/5 1d8+6-8damage

level 7 Rogue Sneak attack 1d6

you now have some sneak attack, so with your improved iniative modifer of +8-+9, you now have the advantage, you can now take one standard action on the suprise round with your rogues roguey ness and shoot two arrows shot at 10/10 for 1d8+5 to 6+1d6 and or course at this level you are also figuring on +2 to +3 gear so its more like 12/12 for 1d8+9+1d6(SA)+1d6(Say flaming)

level 8(Fighter 6, Rogue2) Evasion(Yeah!)(Strength 14)
level 9(Fighter 6, Rogue3) +2d6, Dodge
level 10(Fighter 6, Rogue 4) Uncanny Dodge
Level 11(Fighter 6, Rogue 5)+3d6, Combat
level 12(Fighter 6, rogue 6)Trap sence +2, Combat Expertise(Dexterity 19)
level 13(Fighter 6, Rogue 7)Sneak attack +4d6


Okay so using the same basic principle as before its all about iniative and sneaky ness, at this point in time with maxed Hide/Move silelntly the only people that are going to see you are the people you want to see you, and ontop of that slightly better gear so we will bump it to +4 Keen Flaming Burst bow **** it, so you are looking at Base attack bonus of 11/6/1 with all your nice feats and dexterity wich should be at least 22 with items, 22/22/16/11 You arnt going to miss with the first three shots typicaly, but with many on that first opening shot on the suprise round you can have three arrows shot so you got 17/17/17(Only one attack roll tho) 1d8+12(or more)+4d6+3d6(bow), for three arrows, then you win iniative and you hit em with 22/22/16/11 for 4d8+48+4d6+9d6

level 14(Fighter 6 Rogue 8th)Improved uncanny dodge
level 15(Fighter 6 Rogue 9th)+6d6 shot on the run
level 16(Fighter 7 Rogue 9)Dex bonus (20)
level 17(Fighter 8 rogue 9) Greater Weapon Focus
level 18(Fighter 9 rogue 9) Telling Blow
level 19(Fighter 10 rogue 9) Weapon Finnesse
Level 20(Fighter 10 rogue 9 Ranger1) Choose your enemy!

It gets....crazy...you dont need magic..just a flesh being, and you will probaly end up with
(32 point buy)
str:14
Dex:20
Con:14
Intel:10
Wis:10
for base stats pluss what ever magic items you get
saves 12/14/6

Eldariel
2009-01-29, 01:25 AM
I've been thinking about this lately.

Yes.

Elf. Fighter 8, Duskblade 2, Arcane Archer 10...or something similar.

In a standard party, getting more than two Arcane Archer-levels is a huge waste. Also, Arcane Archer should only be taken for a character focusing on spellcasting; Imbue Arrows is the only worthwhile ability from the class. Greater Magic Weapon does with one level 3 spell that lasts hours/level and is easily recast whenever what Arcane Archer takes 10 class levels to do. That pretty much makes Arcane Archer waste of space other than for the level 2 ability.

The other problem with this build is that it relies on elemental damage. Quick look through monster manual reveals that most of the higher CR enemies have multiple types of energy immunities and resistances, negating most of your damage right there.


The best way to go about a Fighter Archer is to just stack different strength bonuses after getting Ranged Weapon Mastery (requires 4 levels in Fighter or Pious Templar while serving a deity with a bow as a favored weapon) from PHBII and Knowledge Devotion and you'll be fine. Raise your Str instead of Dex (thanks to Ranged Weapon Mastery, Knowledge Devotion and company, this won't impair your hitting too much as you've got +7; think of it as a weak form of Power Attack that's always on), pick Barbarian-level for Whirling Frenzy (along with Extra rage or two), maximize your abilities that increase either Dex or Str, have an adjusting Str bow, profit. Of course, all this means you'll want to have really high starting Dex and Str meaning you'll need to skimp on other stats. Coincidentially, Wood Elf is a great race for Archers as while the stats you have penalty to are relevant, the ones you get a boost to are the ones you need to max. With very high stats, you could have 20 Str and Dex on level 1, although more realistic is 18 in both, 12 Con (fighter archers are pretty much the only archetype that can get away with Con this low), 12 Int ('cause skill points are good for archers), 10 Wis and 10 Cha or something.

The other way to increase martial Archer efficiency is by maximizing your Wealth Per Level. Between stuff like Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar and Mercantile Background, you can generate a whole lot of money which means more enhancements for your bow, which is a great way to improve your damage output. Like, Splitting, Holy, Force bow kicks ass (it's a +8 weapon though). Also, using Raptor Arrows over normal arrows (if not using a Splitting bow) is a fine idea.


In addition to the Martial Archer, my personal favourite as far as Archery goes is Sublime Way Archer. If you have access to the "Falling Star"-discipline, awesome, but even with just material printed in ToB, you can make for a very efficient Archer that also doubles as an able melee combatant. Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose and eventually Time Stands Still allow for a bunch of extra attacks with a bow, while Eternal Blade gives you access to Knowledge Devotion without burning skillpoints (not quite as good, but I'll take what I'm given) and allows adding Int to Damage and Hit and cool stuff like that, while Warblade qualifies you for Ranged Weapon Mastery. This takes quite a bit of work as the Book of Nine Swords wasn't really designed with ranged weapons in mind, but it can be efficient if you put your mind into it, or if you happen to be able to convince your DM to allow Falling Star.


Other than that, Swift Hunter Archers are just fine, but since they need to be within 30' (or 60' with Dragon material) to use their abilities, they aren't that good at archery and are more of "semi-melee damage dealers". I personally dislike them for that very reason; I want my Archers to be able to hurt the Dragon 1000' away.


And yea, spellcasters do everything better. Cleric Archer from Core is the best way to go, there're many fine builds for Arcane Archer (occasionally even using two levels of the class!), Bards with especially Dragonfire Inspiration make for great archers, Archivists are tailormade Archers with access to Rangers' spells and Clerics' buffs, and even some psionic manifester classes are decent archers (then there's the Soulbow which allows you make Wis SAD archer). So yea, there're ways to make viable archers, but they generally involve a lot of magic or a bunch of work to make 'em work without (and they still won't be equally good, of course). If only Power Shot existed in 3.5...well, there's always Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) if allowed, which means you can go back to pumping Dex. Of course, pumping Str has the nice side effect that just picking Power Attack makes you a very able melee combatant too.

Mooch
2009-01-29, 01:28 AM
I remember seeing an splitting enchantment for bows so every arrow you fire get multiplied by 2 or 3 (can't remember exactly or where its from)

if you add this to J-H's build it can get crazy but anything with windwall cast or DR X/- will hurt

Adumbration
2009-01-29, 01:32 AM
Soulknife 5/Soulbow 10. There, you have a succesful archery build. You only really need Soulbow 1, but the fact remains that the class is just pure awesome for archery.

Aquillion
2009-01-29, 02:10 AM
The most important feat to keep in mind for an archer build is Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot). This allows you to apply precision-based damage to each arrow fired, and is extremely valuable if you want to do large amounts of damage at range, especially to archer-rogues or archer-scouts (archer scouts in particular are viable build because Manyshot is only a standard action, letting you easily activate skirmish on a full attack.)

The ability to full-attack on a standard action is itself highly valuable, letting you keep your distance while hitting the enemy with arrows. Most people I've talked to consider good archer builds to be superior to all but the best of melee builds.


Not an improvement, really, but you're underestimating the safety of that range- people tend to forget about the Run action, but it's there. A 50' or 60' movement speed can get next to something a mere 200' away in a single round. Running prevents it from attacking in the same round, but you certainly won't get three safe rounds to pump arrows into your target (especially at high levels, where pretty much anything worth worrying about will fly, teleport, or both.)
At high levels the players should also have a way to fly, especially archer-types. Buy one of various items that lets you fly, or, better yet, have your wizard cast a Phantom Steed for you; it's only a 3rd level spell and lasts all day, so they should have no worries at higher levels, and it'll give you a whopping 240-foot fly speed.

sonofzeal
2009-01-29, 02:30 AM
Soulknife 5/Soulbow 10. There, you have a succesfull archery build. You only really need Soulbow 1, but the fact remains that the class is just pure awesome for archery.
+1

In general though, not so much. The number of things out there that are devastating to archery builds is astounding. Deflect Arrows, Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall, Buffeting Fists, Entropic Warding... and that's just to get started. And the number of archery PrC's? Arcane Archer (horrid), Deepwood Sniper (3.0, so dubious), OotBI (underrated but still mediocre at best), and Soulbow (requires Soulknife, one of the 5 worst base classes ever printed).

Points in archery's favour - Rapid Shot is like TWF but only needs be be enchanted once; it's easy to mix and match arrows to bypass DR on the fly; you can stand stand out of harm's way and still fight; you can interrupt enemy spellcasters more easily than anyone else.

All in all... yeah, I'd stay away from archery unless you really know what you're doing. Soulbows are pretty badass and quite effective though; if you can get houseruled entry via any other class, then totally go for it!

Zergrusheddie
2009-01-29, 06:36 AM
There is a problem with GMS though; you suffer huge penalties for making all those attacks.
2 = -4
3 = -6
4 = -8

How could this keep up with a straight Rogue with TWF/ITWF?
Level 12 Swift Hunter. 16/16/16 1d8+5 +6d6 +3 bow with 2 STR 20 DEX (Average damage of 30.5)
Level 12 Rogue. 15/15/10/9 1d6+2 +6d6 +1 Short swords, 1 STR 20 DEX (Average damage of 26.5)

But the Rogue doesn't have to worry about Protection from Arrows, Entropic Shield, Windwall, or your Fighter getting in the way of your target. Whether or not those downsides are countered by the "I don't have to worry too much about getting whacked on!", I have no clue. I also think that the Rogue requires less feats, but I'm not going in depth because it's 4:30 here :smallfrown:.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Aquillion
2009-01-29, 06:54 AM
There is a problem with GMS though; you suffer huge penalties for making all those attacks.
2 = -4
3 = -6
4 = -8

How could this keep up with a straight Rogue with TWF/ITWF?
Level 12 Swift Hunter. 16/16/16 1d8+5 +6d6 +3 bow with 2 STR 20 DEX (Average damage of 30.5)
Level 12 Rogue. 15/15/10/9 1d6+2 +6d6 +1 Short swords, 1 STR 20 DEX (Average damage of 26.5)

But the Rogue doesn't have to worry about Protection from Arrows, Entropic Shield, Windwall, or your Fighter getting in the way of your target. Whether or not those downsides are countered by the "I don't have to worry too much about getting whacked on!", I have no clue. I also think that the Rogue requires less feats, but I'm not going in depth because it's 4:30 here :smallfrown:.Well, there are more advantages than just "I don't have to worry too much about getting whacked on!"

For instance, you have to get Pounce for your rogue somehow, or the Swift Hunter is going to be getting many more full attacks off than you. And even with Pounce, there's going to be rounds when you just can't reach the enemy (not to mention entire fights where you can't easily reach the enemy, period.) Wind Wall, Protection from Arrows, etc are all situational things; they'll come up sometimes, sure. But having trouble delivering a melee full attack is something that can come up very often indeed.

The Swift Hunter also has a free move action every turn which you won't. That's hard to quantify, but even just being able to move around freely while still attacking effectively can be a big advantage.

On top of that, many of those special defenses will only protect one enemy. Unless it's a duel against a lone boss caster, you can just aim your bow at someone else. When the rogue isn't in a good position to get a sneak attack or something else comes up, though, changing targets is much more difficult for them.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-29, 07:06 AM
Mr. Google has shown be many threads about making Archers. The problem is, the Archers tend to only do about 1d8+12 damage or something along those lines with a couple of attacks. The Swift Hunter is probably the most powerful, but to gain the advantage of the 6d6 Skirmish damage you need to move 20 feet meaning that you only get 1 attack. Can an Archer actually be successful enough to challenge a melee damage dealer? I would like to point out that a level of cleric swapping a domain for the Travel Devotion feat from Complete Champion makes the swift hunter capable of moving at full speed and still do a full-round attack. You won't neccessarily have to invest in charisma to get more turn attempt, you merely need to invest some gold in a Nightstick. Belt of Battle similarly allows you to take up to a full-round action once per day, for extra damage.

Eldariel does however point out the biggest flaw of the Swift Hunter, that they have to be within 30 ft.

For the Zen Archer approach, I believe getting the Holy Warrior feat from Complete Champion will add a significant amount of extra damage on your damage rolls.

J-H
2009-01-29, 08:32 AM
If I read Greater Manyshot correctly, it always applies sneak attack damage, since it doesn't say "you apply your precision-based damage to every arrow, if applicable."

If so, nice!

You could even go Swashbuckler to maintain full BAB...

Joey/Flake
2009-01-29, 08:56 AM
I've done the Cleric Archer, it can be very nice.

MAX WIS gives a Good AB and AC with a Level of Monk. Buffs are always usefull, and if you have the feats spare some focus for high DC spell, Entangle or the such to stop them getting to you..

Epic Focus DC 46 Implosion..I think...:smallconfused:

The damage will come from Buffs, and of course Elements on your bow.

Holy Warrior add to damage..if you can get it, Not sure on the Pre's.

You could simple Teleport away when they get near and begin it all over again. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2009-01-29, 09:01 AM
Splitting is a very desirable option for your bow, but the +3 enhancement price means not spending any of your money on other than a basic +1 enhancement up until you can afford splitting's 30,000 gp upgrade cost; that's about level 11 if you save your copper pieces. Before then you'll want to enhance your Strength as much as possible, because that (with an appropriate inexpensive composite bow enhancement) carries over to damage. And you'll need to spend money, or beg favors from your caster friends, to get a lot of magical oomph on your arrows.

woodenbandman
2009-01-29, 09:16 AM
Factotum archer with Greater Manyshot can deal some serious damage. They greater Manyshot like 40 times per round.

Build looks a bit like Factotum8/Chameleon 10 TOO ENERGETIC FOR NORMAL PRESTIGE CLASS! Which makes you basically a cleric archer build, except with Cunning Surge, which gives you extra standard actions.

Darrin
2009-01-29, 10:10 AM
The Swift Hunter is probably the most powerful, but to gain the advantage of the 6d6 Skirmish damage you need to move 20 feet meaning that you only get 1 attack.


With the right PrCs, you can create a swift hunter that keeps pace with the Rogue's sneak attack:

Scout 3/Ranger 6/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2/Something Else +1

This gets you 8d6 skirmish damage, or 10d6 with Improved Skirmish, at roughly the same pace as a rogue. And moving 20 feet + full attack is fairly easy with the Travel Devotion.



Eldariel does however point out the biggest flaw of the Swift Hunter, that they have to be within 30 ft.


Wand of Sniper's Shot = 750 GP, although that won't work with the Travel Devotion (swift action to activate?). Would probably need a Glove of Storing or Glove of the Master Strategist to keep both hands free.

An item of use-activated Sniper's Shot should be fairly cheap, though... 8000 GP I think.

Some other methods to boost ranged attack damage:

Knowledge Devotion can provide a bonus on attack/damage (+1 to +5 depending on the DC you can hit). I'm not sure I've ever seen a build really exploit this... Item Familiar, maybe? Can you load enough skill points into an item familiar to cover all the creature types?

Lady's Gambit + Stone Power + Crusader 4. Provides +2 attack/+7 damage on all attacks, including ranged. However, does not scale up very well.

Dead Eye feat (Dragon Compendium p. 95, *not* the feat in PHBII) adds your Dex bonus to damage, but only within 30'.

Eldariel
2009-01-29, 10:44 AM
Knowledge Devotion can provide a bonus on attack/damage (+1 to +5 depending on the DC you can hit). I'm not sure I've ever seen a build really exploit this... Item Familiar, maybe? Can you load enough skill points into an item familiar to cover all the creature types?

Char Ops Archers traditionally use this. The Fighter Archer that tried to match Cleric for example took the "Thug" ACF instead in order to get enough skillpoints for Knowledge Devotion. All Cleric-archers and Archivist-archers naturally max this. Every Eternal Blade gets Eternal Knowledge, which makes this pretty much free +2/+3.

Also, remember that Greater Manyshot itself has range limitation; it's not only Skirmish-range that's the problem.

Aotrs Commander
2009-01-29, 10:58 AM
As someone who DMs for a 15th level Ranger 6/Fighter 6/Deepwood Sniper 2/Crusader 1, I can say that archery can be insanely powerful... In direct contradiction to conventional theory, the Fighter and said archer are usually the powerhouses of the party...

The reason said archer is so nasty is Tiefling (Dex 23, 27m with items, Str 16), Improved Rapid Shot; Deepwood Sniper (there's a reason, I think that never made it to 3.5, but the character had the class in 3.0) grants him keen arrows and a x4 crit multipler. Combined with Boots of Speed - giving him five attacks per round - he normally gets at least one crit per round (usually two, given his penchant for high dice rolls) at about D8+7+2D6 (Frost bow, Lesser Acid Crystal) or more damage. He can level most point targets in one or two salvoes. Which is annoying to say the least...

Eldariel
2009-01-29, 11:02 AM
Wait, are there creatures subject to critical hits in this game?

Also, one of the better things to do for archery is actually to allow the unupdated 3.0 material in Deepwood Sniper, Peerless Archer, Order of the Bow Initiate (the 3.0 version - the 3.5 version sucks) and Weapon Master. They're just fine and allow archery to actually be good.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-29, 01:13 PM
There's a prestige class in complete warrior called Order of the Bow Initiates which, along with other abilities, grants you an additional 1d8 points of damage with a bow every odd level. Also, lets consider the bow: 1d8 damage which is in the middle of the damage spectrum in terms of weapons (max d12, min d4). There's also the fact it has a range of 300 ft, which means you can attack an enemy for rounds without them even harming you once.

zerombr
2009-01-29, 07:49 PM
There's a prestige class in complete warrior called Order of the Bow Initiates which, along with other abilities, grants you an additional 1d8 points of damage with a bow every odd level. Also, lets consider the bow: 1d8 damage which is in the middle of the damage spectrum in terms of weapons (max d12, min d4). There's also the fact it has a range of 300 ft, which means you can attack an enemy for rounds without them even harming you once.

it only works when firing a single arrow as a standard action, sadly.

kyoten
2009-01-29, 08:09 PM
Splitting is a very desirable option for your bow, but the +3 enhancement price means not spending any of your money on other than a basic +1 enhancement up until you can afford splitting's 30,000 gp upgrade cost; that's about level 11 if you save your copper pieces. Before then you'll want to enhance your Strength as much as possible, because that (with an appropriate inexpensive composite bow enhancement) carries over to damage. And you'll need to spend money, or beg favors from your caster friends, to get a lot of magical oomph on your arrows.

What source book is the Splitting enhancement located in?

Keld Denar
2009-01-29, 11:31 PM
A little something for Cleric Archer too, Divine Might requires Power Attack to get, but no where in the discription of Divine Might does it say you need to make melee attacks to gain the benefit. Thus, a Cleric Archer can get +str and +cha to damage, which is a pretty nice start.

olentu
2009-01-30, 12:01 AM
By the way can anyone remember what book that dual bow shooting monster is in. I seem to remember it is a rather good polymorph any object option for a cleric archer if taking the trickery domain.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 01:29 AM
What source book is the Splitting enhancement located in?

Champions of Ruin.


By the way can anyone remember what book that dual bow shooting monster is in. I seem to remember it is a rather good polymorph any object option for a cleric archer if taking the trickery domain.

You're probably thinking of Arrow Demon from Monster Manual II. A fine Polymorph-form too. In fact, a classic Cleric Archer (or Archivist or Artificer or Psychic Warrior) trick.

olentu
2009-01-30, 01:32 AM
You're probably thinking of Arrow Demon from Monster Manual II. A fine Polymorph-form too. In fact, a classic Cleric Archer (or Archivist or Artificer or Psychic Warrior) trick.

Yeah that sounds like the guy.

Talic
2009-01-30, 01:45 AM
While archer builds can be successful (and several posters have shown as such), thrown weapon builds will have capability to upgrade to higher overall damage at high levels, due to Bloodstorm Blade and Hulking hurler.

RMS Oceanic
2009-01-30, 03:58 AM
If you happen to have enough money for two bows, try a Dvati from Dragon Compendium: One character with two bodies. They could circle around a foe as a Swift Hunter and get twice the Skirmish damage, all for +1 LA. Downside: They divide their hit dice by 2, so high Con is needed to compensate.

Ricky S
2009-01-30, 04:30 AM
Okay

Cleric with Elf domain and Air Domain, which recieves point blank shot as a free feat for the elf domain.

Feats
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot (doing 2 d10 + str bonus)
Zen Archery (Use wisdom instead of dex)
Plunging Shot (+d6 as long as you are 30 ft above your opponent)
Far Shot (range is now 150%)
Accurate wind (Prequisite, air domain. once per character level per day you can double the range implement)

So wis and str then buy a Mighty greatbow 1d10 plus str bonus. Also make it a frost Great bow or flame or whatever for an extra d6 damage

So 2 d10+ 4d6 + 10 (assuming str is 18 for +4 damage per arrow) and 2 more damage from the sharp quality which adds one point of damage per arrow.

So you end up doing 2d10+4d6+10 at a range of 390ft. (not really optimised damage but still epicly fun!)

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 04:45 AM
Get rid of Plunging Shot, Far Shot, Accurate Wind and instead pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent Spell (Planning-domain for Extend Spell) along with few Extra Turnings. Then Persist Chain of Eyes on a creature to spot for you within 1000' range, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Blessed Aim and all the random buffs. Then launch volleys at opponents your squirrel is spotting for you from infinity away. And get a Distance bow to double the distance. Then get that Sniper's Shot or whatever spell and ignore range increments. There, a good 2000' range without penalties 24/7 while most opponents aren't even able to see you.

Aquillion
2009-01-30, 05:00 AM
Get rid of Plunging Shot, Far Shot, Accurate Wind and instead pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent Spell (Planning-domain for Extend Spell) along with few Extra Turnings. Then Persist Chain of Eyes on a creature to spot for you within 1000' range, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Blessed Aim and all the random buffs. Then launch volleys at opponents your squirrel is spotting for you from infinity away. And get a Distance bow to double the distance. Then get that Sniper's Shot or whatever spell and ignore range increments. There, a good 2000' range without penalties 24/7 while most opponents aren't even able to see you.
The problem with this is that you will completely suck indoors. (Well, ok, you won't suck, since you still have Persistent Spell + DMM + turning attempts, so you can just persist something else... but your main trick won't work.)

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 05:10 AM
The problem with this is that you will completely suck indoors. (Well, ok, you won't suck, since you still have Persistent Spell + DMM + turning attempts, so you can just persist something else... but your main trick won't work.)

You're still dealing just as good damage as any Cleric Archer indoors. Heck, spend one feat on Power Attack and you can go to town with a Warhammer or something (your Elvencraft Bow, mayhap) and Smite The Infidels indoors with boosted Two-Handed Power Attack.

kentma57
2009-01-30, 06:53 AM
Get you DM to allow the 'Ranged Attack of Opportunity'(it was that or 'Ranged threat') basicly with a ranged weapon you threaten 20ft arround you. Now get the other archer to do the same, now make attacks of opportunity as the enemy tries to stop you.

I have done this before three elves a cshadow caster 3, a fight 3, and a cleric 3. The caster buffed and killed things, I healed, and between me and the other arched we fired 14 arrows a turn. Our party of three 3rd level characters just finnished decimating a hundred lesser demons, a 7th level cleric, several giants, about 60 bugbears, and 20 orcs.

So yes archers are good.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 07:06 AM
You can already do that with "Ranged Threat"-feat from Dragon-magazine and the "Arrow Mind"-spell from Spell Compendium. I particularly like ranged AoOs with Stand Still. The visual of a guy rushing you only to get an arrow stuck in his forehead and stopping on his tracks is just priceless.