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CyberRebirth
2009-01-28, 10:14 PM
So, I may be joining a campaign with a friend and his family, and he said that they need some arcane artillery. I decide that I would like to play a sorcerer, my preferred of the two classes, because he gets more spells per day, and can pick any of them to cast.

My friend says I should play a wizard, because they get more spells known. He says the spells per day problem can be averted by scrolls or wands.

Here is my problem, I think that the spells known problem with the sorcerer could ALSO be averted by wands and scrolls.

So I would like the opinion of the GitP forums. Which do you prefer, and why?

Hat-Trick
2009-01-28, 10:17 PM
Sorcerer, if you want to blast the crap out of the enemy. But, if you're expecting to be utility or control, probably a wizard.

Assassin89
2009-01-28, 10:17 PM
I am relatively neutral on both classes, but you should choose the class you are most familiar with.

monty
2009-01-28, 10:18 PM
Sorcerers are much easier to play, and tend to make better blasters (because you don't need very many spells known as a blaster). However, wizards are far more powerful if you're willing to put the work in. That said, sorcerers aren't exactly weak either.

CyberRebirth
2009-01-28, 10:21 PM
I wasn't exactly needing to blast things a whole ton, due to having a warlock in the party, but blasting would still be nice.

I favor the sorcerer due to on the fly versitility(sp).

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-28, 10:23 PM
It is a REALLY REALLY hard choice to make and is something you need to consider, yes the Sorcerer gets more spells per day, but you are also more predictable, you can get around this a small amount with archmage levels and wands and staffs and etc, but you won't nessasarily have that wealth on hand and takes precious feat slots ild think.

Basically you need to balance is getting a few spells many times per day that much more important then getting a few less spells but ten times more diversity?

It depends on the campaign, is it a campaign where xp comes slowly? Then lower level power might be more important. If xp is at least same speed as in NWN2 or standard DnD then you might be better with having a wizard.

But then again, a Sorceror built for its metamagic feats with empower/maximized is possibly unequaled in DPR.

Hopefully you can get Archmage levels so you can change his elements.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-28, 10:25 PM
You won't have versitility with a sorc.

The question you need to ask yourself is this. "Will I cast this 6 times per day, everyday for the rest of my time playing this character?"

If the answer is no, its a spell that can be put on a wand/scroll. If the answer is yes, then you pick it. You get precious few spells know as a sorc, and they are two few to waste on a "once and a while spell"

monty
2009-01-28, 10:31 PM
But then again, a Sorceror built for its metamagic feats with empower/maximized is possibly unequaled in DPR.

My wizard who does 40+4d4 negative levels out of a 4th level slot would like to disagree with you.

CyberRebirth
2009-01-28, 10:37 PM
I was actually thinking about Archmage, Raenir, but they're only about level 3 now.

Grommen
2009-01-28, 10:40 PM
I tend to use NPC sorcs a lot. Personally it's Wizards all the way for me cause I like being as versatile as possible. I made a epic level Sorc for a friends Girlfriend who was joining us on the end of a major campaign. I have to say I out did myself on that one. Sorc turning into an Archmage is a very nasty thing. Though it would not hurt them to add a few feats to the Archmage class. They are very one dimensional and predictable. I think that is the main reason I don't like them. In my mind anyway. How many fireballs does one need to toss in a day anyway?

valadil
2009-01-28, 10:46 PM
I've played both quite a bit. My wizards are more powerful, but my sorcerers are more fun. What it comes down to is figuring out when you want your character to make decisions. Wizards predict what they'll be facing. When they get into combat they either have a solution handy or they don't. Sorcerers react to what they're fighting and cobble together the best solution they can from more limited resources.

Both can use scrolls to make up for their own deficiencies, but scrolls are more of an advantage to the wizard since they're cheaper for him.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-28, 10:49 PM
My wizard who does 40+4d4 negative levels out of a 4th level slot would like to disagree with you.

You can do the same thing with a Sorcerer, Incantatrix is an equal-opportunity class for Sorcerers and Wizards, arguabally more powerful for Sorcerers because they can get away with ditching a single school, wheras it can cripple a specialist wizard to loose yet another school.

To the OP:

It really depends on what your party needs. Do they need someone who digs through musty tomes and can pick up those 'once in a lifetime' type spells, a general arcanist who can ready a spell for any occasion, or do they have that covered, and just need someone who can do a whole lot of battlefield control?

Sorcerers are awesome battlefield control specialists. You can pick up 'save or loose' spells based on each save, and a few 'no save, just loose' type spells just to be safe. Enervation will, of course, have to be a must. Rope Trick is one of the few 'utility' spells extremely worth it for you to learn, although later on you may want to trade it out in favor of a Wand.

Spells you'll want: Stinking Cloud, Haste, Slow, Enervation, Cloudkill, Disintegrate. Later on, Greater Shadow Evocation.

For now, at level three, let's see... you've got a Warlock, so Magic Missile isn't very effective unless you're having to blast a LOT of mooks. Grease would be a good battlefield control spell. Enlarge Person is a good buff for your tank. Sleep may start to loose effectiveness now that you're level 3, and will likely not encounter anything with less than four HD, so don't bother. Likewise with Fear. Color Spray may be a good one to pick up, though.

Seffbasilisk
2009-01-28, 10:54 PM
My wizard who does 40+4d4 negative levels out of a 4th level slot would like to disagree with you.

Mind winging the build for that my way? Even with Arcane Thesis (Enervation) that seems a bit overinflated.

Lerky
2009-01-28, 10:56 PM
"The magic of a wizard is like a finely tuned watch, where the magic of the sorcerer is like...a rubber mallet!"
-Profesor Xavier (Start of Darkness)

a quote that I found amusing:smallbiggrin:
anyway, depends on your character (RP style). Is he the reckless risk taker or the booky clear thinkier? Sorcerers tend to be a more chaotic and crazy type while Wizards are well learned and stuffy. Honestly the diffrence isn't much since it evens out, but it matters mostly in playing style to me.

I'd say sorcerer though, since it was your first choice, I think that's what you should choose.

CyberRebirth
2009-01-28, 10:57 PM
@Shneekey: That's what I always like to play, is the guy who uses things like disintegrate and Flesh to Stone, Save or Die/Save or Lose are my favorite types of spells.

Though my all time favorite is bestow curse. (I was once a trickster mage that knew bestow curse and remove curse :smallbiggrin:)

Ok, so party stats, They have a Warlock, a Ranger, a Cleric, and a Rogue/Bard.

Yukitsu
2009-01-28, 10:58 PM
If you have to ask, a good rule of thumb is sorcerer until you get used to playing arcanists and get sick of not having any spell in your repertoire be functional over a few in game encounters. Apparantly you have experience though so a wizard is almost always better.

Mando Knight
2009-01-28, 11:11 PM
But then again, a Sorceror built for its metamagic feats with empower/maximized is possibly unequaled in DPR.

Not really. Without the appropriate splatbooks, spontaneous metamagic becomes a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions), whereas a wizard can put out two spells a turn using a normal spell and a Quickened Spell. Spells/Day isn't that limiting as you get to higher levels or specialize... and you do get higher level spells sooner. Thus you get to Save-Or-X spells sooner...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-28, 11:11 PM
@Shneekey: That's what I always like to play, is the guy who uses things like disintegrate and Flesh to Stone, Save or Die/Save or Lose are my favorite types of spells.

Though my all time favorite is bestow curse. (I was once a trickster mage that knew bestow curse and remove curse :smallbiggrin:)

Ok, so party stats, They have a Warlock, a Ranger, a Cleric, and a Rogue/Bard.

Hmmm... you may actually want to consider Wizard, then. Bard/Rogue is hardly optimized, and since he's splitting classes, he won't have the spell capability that a normal bard will, which means you need to be able to pull almost any magic trick out of your hat.

Sure, you could probably do this with a Sorcerer, using Mage of the Arcane Order to pull Spell O The Day out of your... wherever... and using scrolls/wands to cover all the extra bases, but they may well need someone who can, for example, decide to memorize Identify several times for the next day or three because we just hit the motherlode of magic items.

Really, it's up to you. I like Sorcerers. They're fun to play, and easy on the headaches, both for the player and for the GM. But with a party like this, Wizard is also a strong option.

monty
2009-01-28, 11:23 PM
Mind winging the build for that my way? Even with Arcane Thesis (Enervation) that seems a bit overinflated.

Incantatrix level 10 plus Arcane Thesis reduces all metamagic by two, with no minimum for Arcane Thesis. Base 1d4 negative levels. Fell Drain - level +0, total 1d4+1 (subsequent numbers assume this applies to each instance of the effect). Split Ray - level +0, total 2d4+2. Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic - level +1, total 4d4+4. Repeat Spell, EM - level +0, total 8d4+8. Maximize Spell, EM - level +0, total 40. Empower Spell - level +0, total 40+4d4. Invisible Spell - level -1, total 40+4d4.

Net adjustment: +1 Twin Spell, -1 Invisible Spell, 0 all others = 0 adjustment.
Total investment: 11 feats. Easier if you can Chaos Shuffle, but possible without (7 plus 1 wizard plus 4 from Incantatrix minus 1 for Iron Will gives you exactly enough).

EndlessWrath
2009-01-28, 11:58 PM
Think of the person behind the stats.. decide what he's like and play off of that.

They're both really powerful (since arcane magic is the most powerful magic in 3.5)... I would also consider Warlock.

Although you didn't mention them, warlocks are just fun... They have even less versatility than Sorcerors ... but can use the spell-like abilities...every turn.. non stop... every day. You can choose a lot of Utility based Invocations because you auto gain a nuke that's a ranged touch attack.

you of course don't have to play warlock. I would consider a second factor however. Sorcerers can cast spontaneously... as the need arises. Wizards you have to worry which spells to pick and if they'll be useful... and it's difficult to rearrange them legally. so a handful of spell varieties for your sorcerer and you can use them however you wish. need invisability 5 times? Done. oops... don't need that fifth invis, You need a nuke... fixed. :smallamused: plus i find them more charming :smallwink:.

Finally. do whichever will let you have more fun... cause that's what d&d is about.

AmberVael
2009-01-29, 12:15 AM
I'd go with Sorcerer.

Less book keeping, more spells per day, less worrying over what spell to cast (you have versatile slots and a smaller spell list, meaning there is less deliberation for you), aren't dependent on a book for your powers, and due to your Charisma you get into all the parties while the wizard nerds out in the library reading old books.

Less powerful? Yes, but you're still pretty powerful. More fun? Hell yeah- at least for me.

Leon
2009-01-29, 12:23 AM
S I decide that I would like to play a sorcerer, my preferred of the two classes

Go with what you like

Eldrys
2009-01-29, 12:39 AM
I would totally go sorcerer. In my experience all my sorcerer builds have been able to stay in combat for more than a milisecond without going negative. But wizards.....not so much I mean if you have fighter or a barbarian even a paladin or cleric, wizards are more powerful and can just blast from behind a meatsheild but I like to get my hands dirty and get in there so I would go sorcerer. (but its okay if you don't:smallfrown:)

monty
2009-01-29, 12:47 AM
I would totally go sorcerer. In my experience all my sorcerer builds have been able to stay in combat for more than a milisecond without going negative. But wizards.....not so much I mean if you have fighter or a barbarian even a paladin or cleric, wizards are more powerful and can just blast from behind a meatsheild but I like to get my hands dirty and get in there so I would go sorcerer. (but its okay if you don't:smallfrown:)

Well, you could always take the Animal Companion variant. It's like having your own personal fighter. Plus, if it dies, you can just get another one tomorrow!

tyckspoon
2009-01-29, 12:53 AM
I would totally go sorcerer. In my experience all my sorcerer builds have been able to stay in combat for more than a milisecond without going negative. But wizards.....not so much I mean if you have fighter or a barbarian even a paladin or cleric, wizards are more powerful and can just blast from behind a meatsheild but I like to get my hands dirty and get in there so I would go sorcerer. (but its okay if you don't:smallfrown:)

Huh. What do you do differently with your Sorcerers? Unless you always take the Battle Sorcerer variant, Wizards and Sorcerers should be about equally fragile- same low HD, same attribute hierarchy (Casting stat and then Dex/Con), same protective spells. Is it just that a Sorc's extra spells/day makes you more willing to pop a spell on Mage Armor/Mirror Image/Blur/Whatever?

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-01-29, 12:54 AM
Beguiler :-)

Just kidding. Honestly, it depends. If your party is going to be heavily optimized, then it's more important to bring more to the table.

However, as a for instance, the group I DM for just likes having fun with it and doesn't really care that much about optimizing themselves. They aren't going to do something that's clearly worse than something else, but they're not spending hours planning out exactly what spells or what prestige class they may want in 3 levels.

If your group is just in it for fun and doesn't really care about Being All That They Can Be, then play a sorcerer. High Charisma can be fun, as can blasting things, and it's less work. Plus, you already like playing one, so just go for it.

-JM

Aquillion
2009-01-29, 12:55 AM
Sorcerer, if you want to blast the crap out of the enemy. But, if you're expecting to be utility or control, probably a wizard.This is a common misconception. In actuality, it's backwards -- sorcerers make comparatively poor blasters because they're weak at metamagic, which is one of blasting's few advantages and the only way to really get anything good out of it. On top of this, sorcerers have access to only a limited number of spells; most blasting spells either have many more situations when they're useless or weak (especially when you lack metamagic) or stop scaling eventually, and most of them are extremely redundant, making them very bad choices for a sorcerer to put into their limited slots.

On top of this, wizards can specialize, and even become a Focused Specialist if you want; this gives them as many slots as sorcerers (more, actually, because they're a spell level ahead) and is a logical choice if you want to go heavy blasting (you get lots of powerful blasting, you're a spell level ahead of the sorcerer, you get good metamagic and bonus metamagic feats, and unlike warmages or the like you still get to keep at least some of your other spells.) If you want to optimize, wizards make far better blasters than sorcerers, especially if you go Focused Specialist in conjuration or something along those lines. (Focused Specialist in Evocation is certainly suboptimal but could still be fun, especially if you want to throw around tons of evocations while still keeping at least some variety -- you'll still get massively more spells to choose from than a sorcerer, even banning three schools.)

Of course, if you want to play a sorcerer, just play a sorcerer, they're still plenty good. But if you're talking optimization, no, sorcerers have nothing going for them as blasters, and in fact have many disadvantages at blasting in particular because of the heavy link between optimized blasting and metamagic.

Belobog
2009-01-29, 01:55 AM
On terms of power level, it doesn't really matter which you choose. Most would say Wizard is better, but honestly, I could never get past the whole 'preparing a list of spells from this immense tome every day for the rest of my life if I want to be useful' thing. Kind of got in the way of the fun for me.

A good rule of thumb for Sorcerer, though, is to take a damage dealing spell every two spell levels, and to restrict yourself to those spells for damage capability. Use the rest of your slots for useful things like buffing or debilitating or just plain rewriting the fabric of the universe. You only get a few, you might as well make them count.

Waspinator
2009-01-29, 02:24 AM
On a side note, some Eternal Wands from the Magic Item Compendium can really help with getting utility spells available.

Aquillion
2009-01-29, 02:33 AM
On terms of power level, it doesn't really matter which you choose. Most would say Wizard is better, but honestly, I could never get past the whole 'preparing a list of spells from this immense tome every day for the rest of my life if I want to be useful' thing. Kind of got in the way of the fun for me.You know you don't actually have to do it personally, just your character, right? (Oh, if only this were true... sooo many groups can probably attest otherwise. :smalltongue: )

Anyway, the sorcerer's biggest disadvantages are:

* It takes a full round to apply metamagic (which makes Quicken, one of the best metamagic feats out there, totally useless and makes the other ones hard to use, especially if you want to take advantage of initiative. Remember, a full-round action means that the spell isn't cast until the start of your next round -- this is generally no good.) This one is, thankfully, fixable, but it's still a pain if you don't.

* You miss out on bonus metamagic feats (of course, if you're optimizing enough to care about all this, then you're probably PRCing out of either class as soon as possible anyway, but it should still be mentioned. At a bare minimum you're still likely missing Scribe Scroll and one Metamagic feat.)

* You are a full spell level behind the wizard in terms of spell access. This is a huge disadvantage, and probably the primary reason why the wizard is better. Understand: This means that half the time, you are, for the most important feature of your character, for practical purposes one level lower than a wizard. Yes, you still get full CL and so on, but spell access is your most important 'class feature', the one that will ultimately decide how much you can contribute when the party really needs it; it really is like being level 6 when your wizard is level 7, or level 4 when your wizard is level 5, and so on. Being a sorcerer is like taking an LA +1 race that recovers your CL but gives you very little else worth the sacrifice.

These are all very big things to lose. None of them are worth it. An expanded list to prepare from vs. having easy access to every spell you know might be a valid trade-off otherwise... but that's not the trade-off you're getting, and people who argue "preparing vs. spells known" are missing the point. Spells known might be an alright alternative for casting if they were on even ground otherwise, but it is not, by any standard, worth multiple feats, your ability to effectively use metamagic, and an effective +1 LA where it matters most.

tyckspoon
2009-01-29, 02:52 AM
Anyway, the sorcerer's biggest disadvantages are:

* It takes a full round to apply metamagic (which makes Quicken, one of the best metamagic feats out there, totally useless and makes the other ones hard to use, especially if you want to take advantage of initiative. Remember, a full-round action means that the spell isn't cast until the start of your next round -- this is generally no good.) This one is, thankfully, fixable, but it's still a pain if you don't.


There's a difference between something that takes a full-round action and something that takes 1 round. Full-round actions complete in the same initiative, they just limit what else you can do during that turn- a sorcerer doing spontaneous metamagic has roughly the same options as a fighter who wants to do a full attack. The biggest downside to that is not being able to use Quicken normally; limited movement is the next biggest problem. Something that takes 1 round starts on your initiative count and doesn't come into effect until your initiative count on the next round. Those are spells like Summon Monster X and Sleep. Thankfully, the metamagic penalty does not turn a standard action spell into a 1 round spell.

(Chances of me having been ninja'd while applying the Metapost Feat Extend Verbiage: high.)

Belobog
2009-01-29, 02:55 AM
You know, everyone says the delayed spellcasting progression is a real crippling point of the class, but I just don't see it. Yes, all of your options are shifted a level lower, and at first glance, that's a big thing...but when you actually play with it, it's not as big of a deal as it seems. It's the same with that +1 LA race; it's a huge taboo to take that and a spellcaster class, but really, it's hamper you a small amount. You still get your big capstone in ninth level spells, and you can get Practiced Spellcaster to cover the CL discrepancy if it hurts you that much. I've played LA +1 Spellcasters before, and I've played a sorceror in a game with a wizard. I really never felt drastically out of step with either of them and I still managed to have fun playing.

Full round metamagic is doable, and while Quicken is very good, you can live without it. It's true of any of the metamagic feats, really; they're nice to have around, but you can live without them. Besides, I'd say it's a fair trade off for not having to use a higher spell slot. Same with bonus metamagic...it's nice, but you can get by without missing it.

And yeah, I know that the character is the one doing that, but it's still tiring to look at your 40+ spell list, flipping through the book to see exactly what that spell does again, deciding what you're using...and then you remember you're level five. :smallwink:

My main point is that no matter what path he goes with, he's going to come out fine. As you said, Sorcerer is good on its own, just not as good as Wizard.

The Minx
2009-01-29, 03:03 AM
So, I may be joining a campaign with a friend and his family, and he said that they need some arcane artillery. I decide that I would like to play a sorcerer, my preferred of the two classes, because he gets more spells per day, and can pick any of them to cast.

My friend says I should play a wizard, because they get more spells known. He says the spells per day problem can be averted by scrolls or wands.

Here is my problem, I think that the spells known problem with the sorcerer could ALSO be averted by wands and scrolls.

So I would like the opinion of the GitP forums. Which do you prefer, and why?

Scrolls and wands are expensive, so the less you have to use them, the better.

A sorcerer only gains one more spell per spell level than day than the specialist wizard.

Therefore, if you are likely to use a number of utility spells beyond the limit of the number of spells known by the sorcerer by more than one per spell level per day, use the wizard, otherwise use the sorcerer.

If you are an experienced player, err on the side of wizard, since an experienced player knows how to plan ahead with spell preparations better. If you have less gaming experience, go with sorcerer, since they are a lot easier when you need to "wing it".

dspeyer
2009-01-29, 03:12 AM
There's a variant that loses a familiar but lets you do metamagic without the full-round penalty. I recommend it. Not only does it free up metamagic (a sorcerer's best friend), it also solves the "my familiar, who has been here and very quiet the whole time" embarrassment.

As for spells known, if you focus on versatile things and don't waste your slots on similar spells, you'll probably have enough except at your highest level. Metamagic can be a big help here, too (e.g. sculpt spell means you don't need both a cone and a ball).

Getting all the spells a level later is a real weakness.

Lycanthromancer
2009-01-29, 03:16 AM
Also don't forget that wizards are Int-based and sorcerers are Cha-based. Wizards are great for skills, and sorcerer skills seriously suck ('ooray for alliteration!). If you want to be making skill checks that actually matter? Take wizard.

And then there's crafting. Riding the XP gravy-train means that you're a level behind, but you catch up REALLY quickly due to all the extra XP you get, and you have so many more magic items that the level penalty not only doesn't hurt you, but actually increases your overall power (as well as your party's, if you want). If there aren't any Mage-o-marts, you can have exactly what you want, when you need it. Wizards make insanely good crafters, since they can have hundreds (if not thousands) of spells, and have extra feats they can burn. Sorcerers? Not so much.

And don't forget rods of absorption. Once you get one a few dozen, you can fill it them up and be a better spontaneous caster than a sorcerer is.

Plus, you can take all of those spells that are so incredibly useless for a sorcerer to learn. Knock? Sure. Rary's mnemonic enhancer? Go for it. You don't have to fret and agonize over every single spell you take and whether or not it will be useful or flexible enough to be worthy of taking. Go ahead and write those three incredibly specific spells in your spellbook. You didn't think you'd have to actually prepare them, did you? Just make some scrolls!

That being said, I'd rather take a sorcerer just because preparing a spell-list every morning is a pain in the arse. And I hate sorcerers. I just hate wizards more.

's why I like psions. They're built as spontaneous casters. They aren't tacked-on to a clunky spell-slot system like sorcerers are. The whole system is intuitive and flows smoothly, and while they don't have the insane-o overpoweredness that a wizard does, they also don't have the drawbacks of a sorcerer, either. They get extra feats, run on Int, have expanded skill lists, can use meta-feats well, and are, in general, superior on a number of levels. Doesn't mean they're broken, just that they're better. :amused:

Devils_Advocate
2009-01-31, 04:17 AM
Ooh, psions. They're cool. You should consider playing one. They've got skills and feats like a wizard, complete with the obvious benefits of high Int in contrast to high Cha, and even more flexibility than a sorcerer. They're good for blasting. Take energy missile and you're pretty much set. Even with the CompPsi nerf that makes its DC scale normally, it's still pretty darned good. Just grab it through the Expanded Knowledge feat if you want a discipline other than Psychokinesis.

Eeezee
2009-01-31, 06:41 PM
Given the choice between Sorcerer and Wizard, I'll choose Sorcerer every time. Yes, you do lag behind by one level when it comes to available spell levels. Yes, your casting level attribute is CHA, which isn't as nice as INT but being able to Bluff well and assist on Diplomacy checks is pretty nice. Yes, you end up missing out on a bonus feat (I'd mention the Scribe Scroll feat, but it's useless for a sorcerer anyway).

In exchange, you get some very handy abilities

1) Ability to cast without studying a big dusty spellbook.
This needs no explanation. Combined with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still spell, this makes a sorcerer who chose his spells wisely able to escape from pretty much any situation at any time of his choosing. While this lacks battlefield applications, it's great roleplaying and great fun.

This also means you don't have to roleplay a book worm, since that's what a wizard is. I have a lot more fun roleplaying as Batman (and let's face it, Batman was never crippled for being unable to read from a book of tricks every day. He's just Batman).

2) More spell slots per day
Some have pointed out that a Wizard can make up for this, but then they're sacrificing something else. Specializing means you can NEVER cast spells from your two forbidden schools, not even with a wand or scroll (but you can use Wish or Limited Wish to use most of these spells). That's not what I'd call versatility. And if you want to become an Incantatrix, that's 3 forbidden schools. Worse yet, the specialist wizards only get +1 spell slot for their specialized school, meaning they're still 1 spell slot behind sorcerers.

3) Limited Wish
... is a tiny XP cost and gives you access to any spell that you might really badly need. Anything else can be bought on a scroll or wand. If you suddenly really need Tenser's Floating Disc (a hoard of goblins have you at arrow point and you'll die if you don't cast it, but they won't let you access your pack), you can cast it immediately!

4) Rapid Metamagic feat (Complete Mage)
Requires Spellcraft 12 ranks and ability to spontaneously cast (that's you!). Every time that you apply a metamagic feat, ignore the increased casting time. This means that you CAN use Quicken Spell since you have overcome the increased casting time normally associated with spontaneous metamagic. Suddenly sorcerers can cast 2 spells of their choosing every round so long as they have the slots available. For a quick kill this can be Enervate + save or lose, but you can choose the save to be whatever you want (Stinking Cloud, Grease, whatever) and Heighten it to your highest spell slot. This is a well spent feat, and it's better than the PHB II Sorcerer variant because there's no limit/day for applying the feat and you get to keep your familiar, although you do need to be level 9.

5) Scrolls and wands are CHEAP even though we don't get the wizard XP->gold conversion savings
If I want to Identify something, I'll cast Identify. If I want to cast Comprehend Languages, I always can. Selling a single masterwork chain shirt buys as many lvl 1/2 scrolls as I need, but usually I'm not just selling 1. Unfortunately if I want a higher caster level I'll need to either shell out a lot more gold or learn the spell myself. This means I'll learn Grease but I'll buy Comp Languages on a wand or scroll. It's not too hard to pick out the right spells to learn and the right spells to scroll/wand.

6) Spontaneous Casting
THIS is why people become sorcerers. I don't need to guess how many times I'll need to cast spells today, nor do I need to guess which metamagic feats to apply ahead of time. Will it be better if I have Heightened Stinking Cloud or Heightened Enervation today? It doesn't matter. The only thing you need to pick out is which spells do you want, and even that's not permanent; if Sleep is becoming useless, as it so often does after a certain point, you can unlearn it and learn something else once every even-numbered level. This is the ultimate in versatility. It only requires that you carefully choose your spells on your own time, which means you're never holding up the game and you don't need any book keeping. Remember, you can't always cast what you want, but you can always cast what you need.

Some other notes:

Mage of the Arcane Order PrC (Complete Arcane) - Requires you to take any metamagic feat + Cooperative Spell (useless) and the Arcane Preparation feat, which has its uses but really just overcomes the "can prepare spells" requirement. The Spellpool is a great asset to a sorcerer. Want to cast a bunch of utility spells that you never learned because you might only use them once a week? No problem! You can call any arcane spell of level 1-9 and any additional spells that your DM designates. It only requires that you have an "open, unused spell slots" which is every spell slot you have available that you didn't bother preparing with Arcane Preparation (unless you want Quickened spells without the Rapid Metamagic feat).

A human sorcerer can have Arcane Preparation, Cooperative Spell, and the other Metamagic feat by level 3. Knowledge (arcane) 8 is reached at level 5, and by then both wizards and sorcerers with Arcane Preparation can prepare + cast 2nd level arcane spells. The sorcerer gets the two spent feats back as bonus metamagic through the PrC, so the net gain is being able to spontaneously cast any arcane spell.

The downside: You don't get the 2 free spells, you can only call one spell level per cast level/2 (so you can call a single lvl 4 spell or eight lvl 1 spells at cast level 8), and you have to spend a full round action to call the spell, which doesn't include actually casting the spell. However, being a sorcerer means you've already memorized most of the spells that you'll need at a moment's notice, and this frees up valuable spell slots.

Now imagine a Sorcerer + Incantatrix + Rapid Metamagic feat. Not only do you have every metamagic you could ever need, including Quicken, without having to spend more actions, but you get the versatility of spontaneous casting. The only downside of this build is fewer spells known, but the number of slots you receive is usually enough to learn the spells you need.

Also, pick up a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell. It's 3000gp. 3x/day you can cast an Extended spell (double duration) without increasing the spell slot. Extend Spell is one of those metamagics that is really important at lower levels, when you need it most but can least afford spending a feat on it. It becomes useless by level 8, when pretty pretty much doubling a duration on any spell will be meaningless. Buying this rod means that you don't need to learn the feat but you can still get higher level durations on spells like Mage Armor and Rope Trick. By level 4 you can have Mage Armor on all day (8 hrs) and Rope Trick on all night (also 8 hrs), and then you can use it on any other spell that you may want to extend (I suggest Invisibility).

All of that said, I like playing both wizards and sorcerers, but sorcerers are definitely more fun to me. Wizards can be slightly more powerful, mostly because they learn spells faster, but they're just not as much fun to play. If all you really want is power, then go be a Wizard; you'll be slightly better off without sacrificing much. If you're looking for a fun character to play, you're more likely to get it as a Sorcerer.

You chose sorcerer first, don't let your DM talk you out of it. If you're going to get into arcane spellcasters in D&D I think it's important that you try both classes eventually, since you might wind up liking the other more once you start playing.

CyberRebirth
2009-01-31, 06:58 PM
...

Dude, This has been the most helpful of all the posts here, to me.

This is a perfect example of how I would like to play a sorcerer.

Thank you very much!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-01-31, 07:10 PM
The problem between Sorcerer and Wizard is not Spontaneous v. Prepared. I think those 2 systems balance fairly well, with the Wizard having the perfect spell whenever he has good intelligence(in both the CIA and mental senses), and the Sorcerer having a good spell every time. Which of those systems is better depends on you.

The issue is that Wizards get so much other stuff. Metamagic is much better for the Wizard, since he can cast and avoid an enemy without wasting either a feat or a good tradable class feature(Instantaneous Jaunt rocks!). The Wizard gets 2 extra feats(since everyone PrCs at 5 and he can trade he junk for ones he wants), an extra level of a PrC(since the Sorc has to wait until 6th), better options for trading his familiar(the best ones require specialization), Int-based casting(Int always being preferred for skill points over Cha, which only serves to boost a couple of skills, plus there is stuff like Incantrix, which is better the higher your Int) and gets spells a level earlier. This isn't even mentioning stuff like Master Specialist which exsists merely to rub sand in the face of everyone else, including the Sorc.

I'd say play whichever, though my stated fix to the Sorc is to give it the Wizard's feat progression, eliminate the metamagic idiocy, and allow the Sorc to specialize for an extra spell known at each spell level. That leaves only the casting-stat disparity(which is too intrinsic to the classes to change) and the spell level issue(which is too complicated for me to bother with).

ericgrau
2009-01-31, 07:16 PM
So, I may be joining a campaign with a friend and his family, and he said that they need some arcane artillery. I decide that I would like to play a sorcerer, my preferred of the two classes, because he gets more spells per day, and can pick any of them to cast.

My friend says I should play a wizard, because they get more spells known. He says the spells per day problem can be averted by scrolls or wands.

Here is my problem, I think that the spells known problem with the sorcerer could ALSO be averted by wands and scrolls.

So I would like the opinion of the GitP forums. Which do you prefer, and why?

Out of all the reasons to play a wizard, spells known is not one of them. This is really a utility thing, since the wizard only gets more spells to choose from when he has an 8 hours notice. If you don't have an 8 hours notice, the sorcerer not only has more spells per day but also the same or more spells known. And as you burn spell slots, you have many more options and much greater versatility compared to a wizard.

Mid to high level wands and scrolls are way too expensive to make up for less spells per day. But low level ones can help both classes handle rare utility things much better, rather than consuming a spot on their spell list for something they probably won't even use that day. So really the concern in the previous paragraph only applies to mid/high level utility.

A lot of people are overly biased towards the wizard, but if you enjoy a sorcerer more then just play one and don't let them sway you. If however, your party is complaining that they might need a high level divination from time to time (something that's too rarely used to keep on a sorcerer's spell list) or other such utility spell, then:
(1) Kudos to the DM for not automatically carrying you through everything and letting your party get stuck. This often doesn't happen.
(2) They may have a point you should consider, in this case.

The other concern is being 1/2 spell level behind, which isn't any of their business if you want to sacrifice that for more spells per day and more *on-the-fly* versatility (i.e., whenever you don't have 8+ hours noticed, as mentioned above).

Strategy and spell selection should be similar to playing a wizard picking a spell list for a day when he doesn't know what he'll be up against. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking it's any different, since you have about the same or a little more spells to select compared to the wizard for this, not less. The one major difference is spontaneous metamagic, which adds even more versatility for a sorcerer. So metamagic is often more important for them than for wizards.

Eeezee
2009-01-31, 07:17 PM
Dude, This has been the most helpful of all the posts here, to me.

This is a perfect example of how I would like to play a sorcerer.

Thank you very much!

I'm happy to help. For a much better sorcerer guide than my scribblings, check out this post

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801

It has links to wizard guides as well, but even wizard guides help sorcerers about 90% of the time :smallsmile:

Eeezee
2009-01-31, 07:43 PM
The problem between Sorcerer and Wizard is not Spontaneous v. Prepared. I think those 2 systems balance fairly well, with the Wizard having the perfect spell whenever he has good intelligence(in both the CIA and mental senses), and the Sorcerer having a good spell every time. Which of those systems is better depends on you.

Agreed, those systems do balance against each other, but it's still really one vs the other. This is definitely personal preference. They both have limitations and advantages.



The issue is that Wizards get so much other stuff. Metamagic is much better for the Wizard, since he can cast and avoid an enemy without wasting either a feat or a good tradable class feature(Instantaneous Jaunt rocks!). The Wizard gets 2 extra feats(since everyone PrCs at 5 and he can trade he junk for ones he wants), an extra level of a PrC(since the Sorc has to wait until 6th), better options for trading his familiar(the best ones require specialization), Int-based casting(Int always being preferred for skill points over Cha, which only serves to boost a couple of skills, plus there is stuff like Incantrix, which is better the higher your Int) and gets spells a level earlier. This isn't even mentioning stuff like Master Specialist which exsists merely to rub sand in the face of everyone else, including the Sorc.


Wasting a feat? You get 7 of them, or more if your race gets bonus feats, plus any bonus feats your class might bestow. Out of all of the feats in all of the 3.5 books, Rapid Metamagic is one feat that I would not consider a waste. It effectively makes Sorcerers better at metamagic than wizards, since they have more spell slots and more versatility in choosing which spells to apply metamagic to on the fly, whereas a Wizard must choose which spells to quicken, which spells to heighten, etc. ahead of time, and those choices might not always be optimal.

The Wizard technically gets two extra feats. One is a bonus feat, which is great, and the other is Scribe Scroll, which is useless to sorcerers anyway. My point is that sorcerers don't need scribe scroll, nor would they want to use it. But yes, the Wizard does get a bonus feat, which I personally think was an oversight on the part of WotC.

Good point on the extra PrC level due to the slower spell progression. That is another advantage that wizards receive. However, there are exceptions. Mage of the Arcane Order requires 8 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), meaning both the Sorcerer and Wizard can take the first level at 6 despite wizards casting 2nd level spells a level sooner. And I know some DMs that won't allow a character to take just one PrC level before switching to something else. Incantatrix, however, is available to a wizard sooner than a sorcerer.



I'd say play whichever, though my stated fix to the Sorc is to give it the Wizard's feat progression, eliminate the metamagic idiocy, and allow the Sorc to specialize for an extra spell known at each spell level. That leaves only the casting-stat disparity(which is too intrinsic to the classes to change) and the spell level issue(which is too complicated for me to bother with).

My stated fix is to give sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat at level 1, since that is perfectly aligned with the class. I like your fixes more than mine.

Aquillion
2009-01-31, 08:12 PM
Don't forget that wizards can leave a spell slot open and prepare it later, taking only 15 minutes to do so. For non-combat spells, or for fights with significant preparation time, a wizard effectively has access to their entire spellbook.

And, uh, wizards can cast Limited Wish or go into Mage of the Arcane Order too; those eliminate the disadvantages of prepared casting just as completely as they eliminate the disadvantages of spontaneous casting. Few wizards bother, while they are considered extremely important options for a sorcerer... which should tell you something.


The other concern is being 1/2 spell level behind, which isn't any of their business if you want to sacrifice that for more spells per day and more *on-the-fly* versatility (i.e., whenever you don't have 8+ hours noticed, as mentioned above).The point is that it's an extremely high cost to pay for spontaneous metamagic. You might be able to argue that spontaneous metamagic is on par with prepared casting; but if you want to argue mechanics and optimization, you have to argue that it is significantly better -- better enough to be worth, roughly, the important parts of one class level, one bonus feat, plus scribe scroll and (in all likelihood) either another wasted feat or any of the things a wizard could trade their familiar for so you can actually use metamagic.

It just isn't that much better than prepared casting. I mean, sure, full casters are awesome no matter what, so people should go ahead and play whatever they feel like it... but giving up, effectively, an entire level just to play a sorcerer is an absurd cost. The fact that it's still a viable class even then just shows how powerful full casters really are.

Kaihaku
2009-01-31, 08:28 PM
The Sorcerer is jibed mechanically for reasons I never really understood. The lack of bonus feats is peculiar and it wouldn't hurt to have given the Sorcerer more skill points or a useful CHA skill. Personally, I prefer playing spontaneous casters because they take a lot less time and energy than prepared casters.

Generally, I load up on flexible spells. A Sorcerer with Shadow Evocation, Shades, Polymorph, PAO, Wish, etc can find a way to be useful in most situations. "Absolute" spells like Wall of Force or Reverse Gravity also make for wonderful improv. I also snatch a few useful travel spells since a Sorcerer can burn them carelessly and thus provide a huge benefit to the party. Teleporting six times in a day can be quite handy.

For a Wizard it's a question of having the right spell at the right time but for a Sorcerer it's a question of figuring out how to find a creative way to use the spells they have in each unique situation. It's not necessary but otherwise a Sorcerer is just limited to being a blaster.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-01, 04:27 PM
Wasting a feat? You get 7 of them, or more if your race gets bonus feats, plus any bonus feats your class might bestow. Out of all of the feats in all of the 3.5 books, Rapid Metamagic is one feat that I would not consider a waste. It effectively makes Sorcerers better at metamagic than wizards, since they have more spell slots and more versatility in choosing which spells to apply metamagic to on the fly, whereas a Wizard must choose which spells to quicken, which spells to heighten, etc. ahead of time, and those choices might not always be optimal.I agree that with Rapid Metamagic, Sorcerers are better at Meta than Wizards, but I've never had a character that didn't want every feat he could get his hands on. I usually trade my Familiar for Rapid Meta instead, but that of course makes the other great Familiar trades impossible. However, any Wizard can use rods for spontaneous metamagic with no feat investment, while Sorcerers still need Rapid Metamagic to be on-par. You only get 7-10 feats as a Wiz/Sorc, whereas you get 20 class levels.
The Wizard technically gets two extra feats. One is a bonus feat, which is great, and the other is Scribe Scroll, which is useless to sorcerers anyway. My point is that sorcerers don't need scribe scroll, nor would they want to use it. But yes, the Wizard does get a bonus feat, which I personally think was an oversight on the part of WotC.Scribe Scroll can be traded for other, better, feats, though. What Conjurer wouldn't swap it for Augment Summoning, which any Sorc focusing on summons would be forced to spend a feat on?
My stated fix is to give sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat at level 1, since that is perfectly aligned with the class. I like your fixes more than mine.I like giving it instead of Scribe Scroll, too. I think I'll incorperate that into my fix, with permission, of course.

aje8
2009-02-01, 10:58 PM
Ok... um to all the Sorcerer suppoters..... just no.

Wizard> Sorcerer powerwise, it's not close. I'm not going to into greater detail on this. Let's just put it this way, as a class, Sorcs can do anything. However, any one one build can only Win DnD in one particular way. (whatever that way is) The Wizard can wake up each morning and decide to win DnD a different way. Any situation, the wizard can solve given a day's rest. ANY. SITUATION.

Moving on, which you play doesn't really matter because the difference in power level is like this :
Wizard, Cleric, Druid
------------
Sorcerer
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
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Non-Full Casters

The point is, Wizards are better than Sorcerers, but nobody really cares because they're both so much better than most of the classes in DnD.

I, personally, perfer playing Wizards. But really it doesn't matter unless the rest of your party is all well optimized full casters.

monty
2009-02-02, 12:38 AM
Wizard, Cleric, Druid
------------
Sorcerer
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
------------
Non-Full Casters

Make it an exponential scale, and move wizards up to their own level, and that's about right.

CyberRebirth
2009-02-02, 12:42 AM
How do wizards solve the problem of not having enough ammo? Sorcerers can buy scrolls and wands too.

And monty, I have to disagree, the wizard is by far not the best class in the game.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-02, 12:51 AM
How do wizards solve the problem of not having enough ammo? Sorcerers can buy scrolls and wands too.Specialist Wizards have 1 less spell per day at each level than a Sorc, and 50% of the time have a whole spell level Sorcerers don't, meaning 3 extra spells of a level higher. How is that less ammo?
And monty, I have to disagree, the wizard is by far not the best class in the game.Search the boards for Cindy, I lost my link to her actual build. A well-built Wizard, by level 10, is nigh-invincible. By level 17, there is nothing nigh about it. A 50th level Wizard still cannot kill a 17th level one, if they're both perfectly built. Below that, though, I say the Druid is better. Cleric is right between the 2 the whole way.

monty
2009-02-02, 01:23 AM
And monty, I have to disagree, the wizard is by far not the best class in the game.

Well then, what is, and why?


A 50th level Wizard still cannot kill a 17th level one, if they're both perfectly built.

Only if you disallow or severely restrict epic spellcasting. Adding that to the list, you'd probably have to use arrow notation or something.

Shadowbane
2009-02-02, 01:38 AM
I prefer wizards, mainly because of the sheer utility. Sorcerers, uh, just not my thing. I'm perfectly ok with my prepared spells and no spont. casting.

Aquillion
2009-02-02, 02:41 AM
Only if you disallow or severely restrict epic spellcasting. Adding that to the list, you'd probably have to use arrow notation or something.Actually, I'm not sure if Epic Spellcasting can defeat Mind Blank... the Reveal seed doesn't note any special abilities in that regard (in fact, it has a rather long list of the ways it can be thwarted), while Mind Blank itself makes no exceptions.

Now, the Metafaculty psionic power specifically does beat anything non-Epic, so the epic caster could pay a high-level psion to find the lower-level caster, and the lower-level one can't fight back. (Or, with Epic Casting, you could use the Transform seed to become a Seer and do it yourself...)

VladtheLad
2009-02-02, 07:23 AM
I think thats another VERY good guide:

A short guide to being better looking

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1080031

Basicly with rapid metamagic and incantrix a sorcerer has huge flexibility.

Just think about it, you can quicken any spell you have as needed... (at high levels though)

Also with correct spell selection a sorcerer can:

Become a buff machine (superior resistance, haste, snakes swiftness mass and so on...)

Become a very good blaster ( enter wings of flurry from Races of the dragon, a sorcerer only spell )

Become very hard to kill, using spells like wings of cover (RotD) and ruin delvers fortune (SC) which have an immediate action casting time provide strong defensive options and are basicly sorcerer only.

Plus filling out the typical arcane caster control role with spells like wall of stone, enervation, teleport etc.

Bosh
2009-02-02, 07:50 AM
I'd say play whichever, though my stated fix to the Sorc is to give it the Wizard's feat progression, eliminate the metamagic idiocy, and allow the Sorc to specialize for an extra spell known at each spell level. That leaves only the casting-stat disparity(which is too intrinsic to the classes to change) and the spell level issue(which is too complicated for me to bother with).

I'd probably do it more the other way round.
Give the wizards a sorc spell progression and strip them of all their bonus feats :)

aje8
2009-02-04, 04:14 PM
How do wizards solve the problem of not having enough ammo? Sorcerers can buy scrolls and wands too.
1st of all, that's not that much of a problem. Even regular wizard's don't generally run out of spells. When your spells are well chosen, 2-3 an encounter is all you need, and Wizards have enough for that assuming by DMG encounters per day.

2nd of all: Focused Specalist or if you want to go more overpowered Domain Wizard. Either of these options take care of that problem.


Become a buff machine (superior resistance, haste, snakes swiftness mass and so on...)

Become a very good blaster ( enter wings of flurry from Races of the dragon, a sorcerer only spell )

Become very hard to kill, using spells like wings of cover (RotD) and ruin delvers fortune (SC) which have an immediate action casting time provide strong defensive options and are basicly sorcerer only.

Plus filling out the typical arcane caster control role with spells like wall of stone, enervation, teleport etc.
I admit that Sorcerers AS A WHOLE can do all this.
However, any one BUILD can only do some of these things.

I admit a Sorcerer could do 2-3 of those things, but a Wizard can do ANYTHING. For example, you could probably make a Sorc build that Blasts, Defends and has utility. However, my Wizard can be anything (other than a blaster, but who needs those you have Save or dies!) at any time. He can be an Undead Controller, A SoDer, a money making machine, a Buffer, a Debuffer, a Battlefield Contorller, a skill monkey, a Summoner, a scout. He can be anything.

Also when it comes to defensive options, a Wizard has access to the best ones too. Craft Contigency Feat, Inviability, Mirror Image, Greater Mirror Image, Fly, Celerity (The best defense is a killing them before they can act!)

Once again, I'll state this:

Any one Sorc build can only Win DnD in a couple of set ways. The Wizard can wake up each morning and decide to win DnD a different way.

Sorcs are REALLY poweful and somewhat versatile.
Wizards are equally powerful (Wizards +1/2 Spell Level= Sorc's More Spells) and EXTREMELY versatile.

For example, in a recent Campain, we needed Stoneshape for one reason or another. So my Wizard simply found another Wizard and bartered with him for the spell. Next day woke up and prepared it. He could have gone to the store and brought it. Or he could have attempted to get it from a library of some kind.

tyckspoon
2009-02-04, 04:50 PM
Actually, I'm not sure if Epic Spellcasting can defeat Mind Blank... the Reveal seed doesn't note any special abilities in that regard (in fact, it has a rather long list of the ways it can be thwarted), while Mind Blank itself makes no exceptions.

Now, the Metafaculty psionic power specifically does beat anything non-Epic, so the epic caster could pay a high-level psion to find the lower-level caster, and the lower-level one can't fight back. (Or, with Epic Casting, you could use the Transform seed to become a Seer and do it yourself...)

If you've gotten into the 'make up new spells' bit of the game, you could just as well do normal spell research to invent (Character Name's) Perfect Scrying, which would be like Greater Scrying except it specifically defeats Mind Blank. Or maybe make it an Epic feat: Epic Voyeur, make a caster level check to defeat anti-scrying effects.

Aquillion
2009-02-05, 12:46 AM
If you've gotten into the 'make up new spells' bit of the game, you could just as well do normal spell research to invent (Character Name's) Perfect Scrying, which would be like Greater Scrying except it specifically defeats Mind Blank. Or maybe make it an Epic feat: Epic Voyeur, make a caster level check to defeat anti-scrying effects.
Yeah, but then you're relying on DM cooperation (more than just using the printed Epic Spellcasting seeds, anyway, many of which are completely broken if you just use them to do what they flat-out say they can do.)

Mind you, it's not unreasonable (I was actually really surprised that the basic Epic seed for scrying can't defeat mind blank -- beating equivalent non-epic countermeasures is one of the basic logical things you'd think Epic magic should do), but there you have it.

J.Gellert
2009-02-05, 04:36 AM
I find myself always preferring wizards because they are "faster". At level 5, a wizard can start learning all level 3 spells, while a sorcerer will have to wait till next level to get one of them.

I've tried playing sorcerers to "break" Vancian magic, but it ends up feeling miserable when I compare my character to how he would have been if he was a wizard instead.

VladtheLad
2009-02-05, 10:11 AM
1st of all, that's not that much of a problem. Even regular wizard's don't generally run out of spells. When your spells are well chosen, 2-3 an encounter is all you need, and Wizards have enough for that assuming by DMG encounters per day.

2nd of all: Focused Specalist or if you want to go more overpowered Domain Wizard. Either of these options take care of that problem.


True, specialist wizard with mage of the arcane order are the s*@t.

Though I have to say in my games I keep the right to veto anything from unearthed arcana and settings supplements (forgotten realms/eberron)


I admit that Sorcerers AS A WHOLE can do all this.
However, any one BUILD can only do some of these things.

I admit a Sorcerer could do 2-3 of those things, but a Wizard can do ANYTHING. For example, you could probably make a Sorc build that Blasts, Defends and has utility. However, my Wizard can be anything (other than a blaster, but who needs those you have Save or dies!) at any time. He can be an Undead Controller, A SoDer, a money making machine, a Buffer, a Debuffer, a Battlefield Contorller, a skill monkey, a Summoner, a scout. He can be anything.


Nah they can do all these things. Actually its easier to do them due to the larger number of spells they can cast. You see the spells I mentioned need to be spammable to work to their max. Take superior resistance and mage armor, you need lots of castings to make the most out of them. Same goes with spells like wings of cover.

Here is a sample spell list that allows you to do all these things I mentioned:

1st
Ray of Enfeeblement
Magic Missile
Nerveskitter (SpC)
Benign Transposition (SpC)
???

2nd
Wings of Cover (Dragon Magic)
Glitterdust
Alter Self
Invisibility
Detect Thoughts

3rd
Greater Mage Armor (SpC)
Greater Mighty Wallop (RotD)
primal instict (Dragon Magic)
Haste

4th
Enervation
Wings of Flurry (Dragon M)
Assay Spell Resistance (SpC)
Ruin Delver’s Fortune (SpC)

5th
Draconic Might (RotD)
Wall of Stone
Teleport
Magic Jar

6th
Greater dispel Magic
Superior resistance
Freezing fog (SpC)

7th
Project Image
Glass Strike (SpC)
Elemental Body (SpC)

8th
Moment of Prescience
Polymorph Any Object
Ottos irresistable dance

9th
Time stop
Shapechange
???




Yes the wizard can be any of these things too (and much more) , but he must choose which one at the start of his day. Divination doesn't solve everything (and many specialists ban it) and its very possible for the wizard to prepare the "wrong" spells. In which case he must go through the encounters without the optimal selection of spells. (Keep in mind retreat isn't always a possible solution in encounters)

In my experience (I have played a wizard and seen a well played sorcerer) this means one thing: It depends on the adventure which of the two is more useful. Is it clear what kind of monsters and classes you will be dealing with? Do you have a time limit? Will the big bad guy stay in his room after the first encounter with the pcs?
If the answer is yes in these questions then the wizard is the way to go...

For example in Red Hand of Doom I am dming (a war campaign) , the sorcerer has come really handy. Its not always clear what kinda of opponents you will face, there is a time limit and the variety and big numbers of the enemies favor the sorcerer.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-05, 10:45 AM
Nah they can do all these things. Actually its easier to do them due to the larger number of spells they can cast. You see the spells I mentioned need to be spammable to work to their max. Take superior resistance and mage armor, you need lots of castings to make the most out of them. Same goes with spells like wings of cover.But they don't have the option to cast all of them. A 10th level Sorc(one of their major break points) can cast 1 5th level spell 4 times each day. A Specialist Wizard will have a minimum of 4 spells known that he can cast 4 times each day. The Wiz is much more adaptable, as he can prepare 4 different spells and cast whichever one fits best, while the Sorc has one spell that he has to spam.
Here is a sample spell list that allows you to do all these things I mentioned:

1st
Ray of Enfeeblement
Magic Missile
Nerveskitter (SpC)
Benign Transposition (SpC)
???

2nd
Wings of Cover (Dragon Magic)
Glitterdust
Alter Self
Invisibility
Detect Thoughts

3rd
Greater Mage Armor (SpC)
Greater Mighty Wallop (RotD)
primal instict (Dragon Magic)
Haste

4th
Enervation
Wings of Flurry (Dragon M)
Assay Spell Resistance (SpC)
Ruin Delver’s Fortune (SpC)

5th
Draconic Might (RotD)
Wall of Stone
Teleport
Magic Jar

6th
Greater dispel Magic
Superior resistance
Freezing fog (SpC)

7th
Project Image
Glass Strike (SpC)
Elemental Body (SpC)

8th
Moment of Prescience
Polymorph Any Object
Ottos irresistable dance

9th
Time stop
Shapechange
???Yes the wizard can be any of these things too (and much more) , but he must choose which one at the start of his day.But at any level besides 20th, the Sorc is choosing which one of those things to do at each levelup. The Wizard has more adaptability because he can change his loadout completely with little work. The Sorc has a much more limited list of options when deciding wat to cast.
Divination doesn't solve everything (and many specialists ban it) and its very possible for the wizard to prepare the "wrong" spells. In which case he must go through the encounters without the optimal selection of spells. (Keep in mind retreat isn't always a possible solution in encounters)1st, Divination isn't bannable. In fact, it is one of the 3 best schools to specialize in if you have the SpC. 2nd, the goal is not perfect spell selection, it's in having a wide variety of options so that you always have a good choice available in one of your slots. The Sorc has one spell available of the same level as the Wiz, so he has one option. The Wiz has 4 seperate spells he gets to choose between in the first combat. Even in the 4th combat of the day, the Wiz has one spell of his highest level, and the Sorc has one spell of his highest level. At no point during the day is the Sorc more flexible.

Yukitsu
2009-02-05, 12:18 PM
People keep citing wizards running out of spells as a problem. Does anyone here actually ever have that happen in a game? I mean, typically, 1-3 spells of various levels per encounter, 4 encounters per day. That's a drop in the proverbial bucket. Has anyone ever found themselves useless through lack of relevant spells as a wizard? I can't recall a moment that I have.

J.Gellert
2009-02-05, 01:21 PM
1-3 spells per encounter is low. I expect a typical encounter to last at least 5-6 rounds (a challenging one) and usually a spellcaster player finds it more fun to be doing something (read: cast something, since that's all a spellcaster really does effectively) every round.

Not to mention pre-fight castings (buffs) and utility spells.

When I play low-mid level wizards I find myself going "Eh, I don't do anything this round, the fighters are mopping up the fight pretty well" a lot. It saves me spells for the big bad, but it's not very exciting...

(Though it does add some badassness to your character, sitting back and watching and only interfering when it will really tip the scales)

monty
2009-02-05, 01:24 PM
(Though it does add some badassness to your character, sitting back and watching and only interfering when it will really tip the scales)

This is pretty much how I always play arcane casters.

CyberRebirth
2009-02-05, 01:28 PM
Firkraag, I know this is off topic, but I JUST came face to face with the Dragon you took your name from xD

Next time I get back on I'll be going back to the farm.

Ok, so, back on topic.

I see the differences between the Wizard and sorcerer now, and I come to realize my play style is better suited for Sorcerers. (Plus through this thread I figured out how to use metamagic well)

VladtheLad
2009-02-05, 02:29 PM
What I said is that the sorcerer can:

Become a buff machine (superior resistance, haste, snakes swiftness mass and so on...)

Become a very good blaster ( enter wings of flurry from Races of the dragon, a sorcerer only spell )

Become very hard to kill, using spells like wings of cover (RotD) and ruin delvers fortune (SC) which have an immediate action casting time provide strong defensive options and are basicly sorcerer only.

Plus filling out the typical arcane caster control role with spells like wall of stone, enervation, teleport etc.

I think I proved he can be really good at all of these things.

And he can be pretty good at all of them by level 9.

These things especially buffing and blasting need a bigger number of spells so the sorcerer is better suited for them.

Yukitsu: I wouldn't say I was uselless. I was playing a 6 wizard/3 ruathar grey elf, with the generalist first substitution level. I was planning to procede as initiate of the sevenfold veil.

I pretty much shined over several encounters until the day we hit on some undead(super ninja mohrg). So my polymorph other/dominate spells were uselless, enervation the same . I was forced to use polymorph self to turn into a hydra. I tried to melee the bastard and I got paralysed. Then it got damaged, hid and fled...

The sucking started when we faced swarms of advanced ghasts, did I mention I had enervation and polymorph other memorised?

In retrospect I should have memorized wall of stone but I was clearing away encounters with save or loose spells. I started using spells like haste, fly (save my self) and scorching ray to help my team against them. Then the morgh returned and the only meeningfull thing I could do was magic missle.


All in all I wasn't completly useless, but I did feel a little dissapointed.


Another problem that could happen is, while prepating your spells to try and have a solution for every possible situation and then after facing the same kind of enemy many times run out of useful spells.


I also feel that people tend to think that the wizard is better than the sorcerer because in the core rulebooks the first was clearly much much better.
I think prestige classes and new spells have almost closed this gap.
Yes the prestiges help the wizard too, but at least he must sacrifice some class features when taking them and the spells might be good for the wizard but the sorcerer needed them much more.


Not to mention the new sorcerer-only spells.

Not to mention sorcerers are easier and less tiring to play.

Not to mention sorcerers have higher charisma and get more chicks.

Not to mention dominate doesn't count because she doesn't really want it Wizy!

JellyPooga
2009-02-05, 02:45 PM
My persoal preferance is to completely ignore the descision and take both; Ultimate Magi rock! So many spell slots you won't know what to do with them all! If you want to get really pointless, go Wizard/Wu Jen/Sorcerer/Bard/Ultimate Magus...:smallconfused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-05, 04:44 PM
My persoal preferance is to completely ignore the descision and take both; Ultimate Magi rock! So many spell slots you won't know what to do with them all! If you want to get really pointless, go Wizard/Wu Jen/Sorcerer/Bard/Ultimate Magus...:smallconfused:I'm inspired to try to stat out a Bard/Wizard/Sublime Chord/Ultimate Magus now. Thanks a bunch.

Aquillion
2009-02-05, 07:54 PM
Another problem that could happen is, while prepating your spells to try and have a solution for every possible situation and then after facing the same kind of enemy many times run out of useful spells.You shouldn't prepare every one of your spells at once (how often do you have to cast 30+ spells in the same encounter?) Instead, leave several slots open, so you can prepare them later on as the situation warrants. It takes only fifteen minutes, and this gives you access to your entire spellbook outside of combat or when you have a chance to prepare.

J.Gellert
2009-02-06, 04:21 AM
And pick Uncanny Forethought (from Exemplars of Evil) so that you can fill those unused spell slots on the fly, if need be :smallwink:

TheOOB
2009-02-06, 04:36 AM
If your running out of spells in an encounter, you are either fighting too many encounters, or you aren't picking your spells right. A wizard is the scalpel to a sorcerers sword. The sword has more raw power then the scalpel, and is more useful an versatile then the scalpel in one specific circumstance, but the scalpel can do so much more. As a wizard you need to choose your spells for maximum effect, you should take only a bare minimum of damage spells, and instead focus on spells that remove enemies from combat entirely. A silence spell on the rangers arrow, Tasha's hideous laughter on the ogre, grease on the floor while your rouge picks up your tripping foes, a wizard can door more with a single spell then any other character can do.

Sorcerers are specialists. A sorcerer can do one thing better then a wizard, whether that is enchanting, 1-on-1 arena duels, divining, blasting, whatever. A wizard on the other hand, can do everything. Take your pick.

VladtheLad
2009-02-06, 05:59 AM
You shouldn't prepare every one of your spells at once (how often do you have to cast 30+ spells in the same encounter?) Instead, leave several slots open, so you can prepare them later on as the situation warrants. It takes only fifteen minutes, and this gives you access to your entire spellbook outside of combat or when you have a chance to prepare.

Yes but that can be done only if you predict the specifics of the next encounter or if retreat from one and return 15 minutes later.

Still it really helps, especially in non combat situations.

Aquillion
2009-02-06, 08:04 AM
Yes but that can be done only if you predict the specifics of the next encounter or if retreat from one and return 15 minutes later.Not true. It was a response to the problem you said you were having, and it requires no prediction at all on the wizard's part (although, of course, in cases where it is obvious what you'll fight next it can help there, too.)

It works like this. Let's say I'm a wizard with 18 spell slots in my top few spell levels. I could prepare them into (say) 6 spells to exploit a low will save, 6 spells to exploit a low fort save, and 6 spells to exploit something being easy to hit (or whatever; the specifics aren't important.) Alternatively... I could prepare 4 of each, and leave the remaining 6 spells open. Then, after an encounter that depletes one type of spell, I can simply replace the ones that were depleted. I don't need to know what I'm fighting next; I just know that I want to keep a fully-versatile spell list at all times.

This way, even if I encounter several enemies in a row with the same weak points, I can still devote the majority of my spells to exploiting those weak points. Say we encounter nothing but undead -- I'll have focused 4 out of my 18 high-level spell slots into spells that work on undead, and after the first encounter I'll replenish those four. If we encounter Undead again, I'll still have my effective-against-undead spells; if we encounter something else, I'll still have all my other spells (and can then replenish them, if necessary, after that encounter.) No matter what happens, the majority of my spells will be relevant and useful.