Why are fan translations forbiden?

[grogy]

I would like to know why people cant make fan translations. Many people cant speak english so well to understand all the jokes (and some people dont speak english at all...). I just cant see any reason, why tranlslations are not alowed and translators are beeing threaten with a legal action. I know its against the law to use original pictures in other webpages, but it doesnt hurt anyone, its not like they were stealing people from this site. Many people started with trasnlation and when they ran of translated epiodes, they started to read in english. Many people (including myself) prefer to read in english, just because some jokes are almost untranslatable.
So please, dont forbid translators from spreading comic to non-english speakers...

[Fale]

See Rich's post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5656080#post5656080). He isn't anti-translation but he doesn't want anyone to repost and/or modify his work. Anyone is free to create translations for the comic (hosted anywhere), just as long as they're text-based.

I would agree with anyone that reading the translations from a separate place (such as an open Notepad window or another browser tab) would be a pain, but anything else would be crossing the legal line.

[factotum]

I believe somebody hit on the idea of making a translation as a transparent GIF that can be dropped in over the original comic...takes more effort, but if someone really wanted to do a translation I'm sure that way would not be a problem.

[jolus]

I don't think so.



There is no force you can bring to bear that will cause me to allow you (or anyone else) to alter and reuse my artwork. It will NEVER happen. If your true goal is to bring the comic to a Portugese audience, you may do so by making TEXT-ONLY translations. Any other effort will never be permitted.


So doing this as a transparent GIF file is also not permitted by the giant. The only way is to do text-only translations. There are also some threads in this forum where this is done, e.g. the german translation thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4972).

[Superglucose]

that would be a remarkably interesting add-on to the page, since to keep (technically) withing the Giant's rules you can't take the artwork anywhere else. It should be possible with scripting... and...

*the programming geek in me starts thinking of ideas, then realizes he only speaks english*

Never mind.

EDIT: Actually, I'm fairly sure the Giant doesn't give a damn about how the text translations are laid out. In a text file, an RTF file, hand-written on a napkin and then scanned into a PDF... or in a carefully formatted .GIF he might care about the white backgrounds though...

[Fale]

I believe somebody hit on the idea of making a translation as a transparent GIF that can be dropped in over the original comic...takes more effort, but if someone really wanted to do a translation I'm sure that way would not be a problem.

The guy who was making these here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102604) mentioned that he e-mailed Rich about this, but he didn't get (or mention) that he got a reply. That Greasemonkey script someone suggested sounded like a good idea thought (and not just for OOTS either).

[jolus]

that would be a remarkably interesting add-on to the page, since to keep (technically) withing the Giant's rules you can't take the artwork anywhere else.

The point is not "taking the artowrk anywhere else", but "altering the artwork".

[raphfrk]

The point is not "taking the artowrk anywhere else", but "altering the artwork".

It is a matter of opinion. What actually happens with the script that the guy used is that the transparent gif is overlaid on the entire webpage. (He has to take into account where image actually appears). If Rich was to change his layout (move where he positions the comic), the overlay would be misaligned. This means he doesn't technically change the website.

OTOH, an image that contains only text, could be argued to be an image and not actually text.

In any case, given the level of author resistance, perhaps, such a system could be developed for a different comic first.

[Lissou]

I would like to know why people cant make fan translations. Many people cant speak english so well to understand all the jokes (and some people dont speak english at all...). I just cant see any reason, why tranlslations are not alowed and translators are beeing threaten with a legal action. I know its against the law to use original pictures in other webpages, but it doesnt hurt anyone, its not like they were stealing people from this site. Many people started with trasnlation and when they ran of translated epiodes, they started to read in english. Many people (including myself) prefer to read in english, just because some jokes are almost untranslatable.
So please, dont forbid translators from spreading comic to non-english speakers...

As someone who would really, really like to translate OOTS into French when it's legal, I'll try and answer your questions.

First, The Giant, as far as I know, isn't against the idea of OOTS being translated at some point. Just not right now. Hopefully, when the whole series is over, he will consider it.

I can't speak for him, but from what I've gathered, the reasons why it's not possible right now are as follow:

1) difficulty of finding someone reliable to do quality work consistently.
The Giant used to host some translations on his website, until he realised many of them were poor quality. He is busy with working on the strip and all the work that comes with it (working on books, the adventure game, marketing, probably more stuff).
He can't take the time to select someone, especially since he doesn't seen to speak any language other than English himself. It would take time off the comic, and possibly lead to nowhere at all. So he doesn't.

2) copyright issues.
If the translations can't be official and hosted on Giant in the Playground, why can't they be unofficial and hosted elsewhere?
Because they use his artwork, his intellectual property. In the worst case scenario, the Giant could lose his rights over OOTS because his artwork will have been used too much. We can't have that. It would be detrimental to him, and as much as I realise fan translations are made by fans that love the comic, I think having the comic be able to continue is more important than having it translated right away.

So, the Giant is being "just mean" or anything, there. As much as there might be a part of "I don't like people using my work without permission and making my characters say stuff I can't check are right", there is definitely a strong legal issue right there. And we can't have that.

Text translations are legal. They won't bring many new readers, I am aware of that. They might not bring any readers at all. They are also a lot of work.

That's why I stopped doing the French one, partly. I am willing to keep working on it but I won't be posting it online. I don't see a point right now, it wouldn't get any French readers, only people who read it in English and may or may not speak French as well.

Believe me, I have tried convincing people to go to the English page and use the "subtitles". Doesn't work. I have (sorry) edited some of the original pages to put text in, and showed a paper version of that to some friends. They loved it, and wanted more. I told them to check out the text translations for the rest, they never bothered.

So I understand you, but I understand the Giant as well. And actually, I think the translations will probably be better if they are done with a complete work.
Take the prophecies: we don't know exactly what they refer to. We could accidentally make a mistake while translating them. V's four words in particular: are they going to be four words in the translated language? The might, and they might not. No way to know until it happens.

If the Giant reads this, I am still offering my services to translate the comic into French whenever the series is over. I am willing to pass any evaluations you will deem necessary, and I am ready not to be chosen.
At this point, I think I would argue against having OOTS translated officially though. Don't get me wrong, I want it to happen. I also want the translation to be good, and unless you share spoilers with translators (and there is no way you'll do that), it can only be consistent if the story has been completed in English.

I wish the story could be translated right away, I really do. But it's better if it isn't officially at this point. And it can't be unofficially for legal reasons.

[SPoD]

According to the inside of his books, the OOTS and all characters in it are trademarked. A trademark is different than a copyright; if you fail to protect it legally, you can lose it. Without the trademark, there is nothing to prevent people from writing their own comic about Elan, Roy, etc., as long as they use their own art.

So, he's not just being mean, the trademark law REQUIRES him to protect it or else.

[[TS] Shadow]

Being an English speaker, I don't have to deal with this, but many of the OotS jokes work do to the visual humor. I know that a lot of the fight scenes would be less intense reading them, and you all know that the joke here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html) just wouldn't be the same in text (That was one of the actual laugh-out-loud jokes in the comic. Many were funny, but I only laughed out loud a few times.)

Also, would you have to change the art in order to translate? All you would have to do is remove the text in the bubbles and put in the right language. The only art problem I see there is bubble size, and that's hardly a major issue.

[Lord_Butters_I]

Let's get cynical!

SCRUBBED

The Voice of Mod: Hey, did you know that discussing how to commit a criminal activity is actually grounds for instant banning? No? You do now. Don't do it again.

[Trazoi]

According to the inside of his books, the OOTS and all characters in it are trademarked. A trademark is different than a copyright; if you fail to protect it legally, you can lose it. Without the trademark, there is nothing to prevent people from writing their own comic about Elan, Roy, etc., as long as they use their own art.

So, he's not just being mean, the trademark law REQUIRES him to protect it or else.
That's true that you need to defend trademarks to protect them. However, OotS is both trademarked and under copyright. Copyright can also stop people from making their own stories about OotS characters, and Rich will retain the copyright unless he decides to assign it away (unlikely).

The issue of IP for characters in comics is quite interesting and, from what I've read, a legal minefield. I'm not sure even lawyers and judges have it quite figured out whether comic characters are protected by copyright or trademark; they're a little bit of both, really. So it's perfectly understandable to me that Rich wants to make sure there aren't any trademark issues in the future.

[mikeejimbo]

I thought that the Giant also rescinded his go-ahead on Text-Only translations recently, due to the fact that people kept abandoning them.

[awibs]

If you techies out there want to invent something brilliant, useful, AND LEGAL - why not work on a UNIVERSAL script/program that can scan images for comprehensible text (many crack scripts have similar things, which is why security codes are SO distorted. This strip, which is all in comic sans, can't be too tough for a bot to read) , and put it through an altavista-like universal translator? You know, the "translate this page" button? A universal translator that can scan images as well as text is NOT illegal and useful for every webcomic.

[Lissou]

If you techies out there want to invent something brilliant, useful, AND LEGAL - why not work on a UNIVERSAL script/program that can scan images for comprehensible text (many crack scripts have similar things, which is why security codes are SO distorted. This strip, which is all in comic sans, can't be too tough for a bot to read) , and put it through an altavista-like universal translator? You know, the "translate this page" button? A universal translator that can scan images as well as text is NOT illegal and useful for every webcomic.

Not to be cynical but the translations would such, the gaming words probably be mistranslated, the puns lost, and if automatic translations such as babelfish are to be believed, Durkon's speech wouldn't be translated at all because the words wouldn't be recognized as existing words.
This being said, such a program might be a good idea.

Right now I'm wondering how legal it would be to have a website that has a window with Gitp in it at the top, and the translated text in the language of your choice at the bottom, with text-only transcripts. Probably not allowed though.

TS Shadow > The issue isn't with his art being changed, it is with his art being reproduced on other websites without content.
One could also argue that in a comic, text and image are both part of the art, and that changing the text is therefore changing the art as well. But the main problem is with posting it everywhere.


Trazoi> Is OOTS copyrighted, though? My books only mention a trademark, and the copyright mention at the bottom of this website doesn't have the Giant's name.

[LuisDantas]

Let's get cynical!

{Scrubbed}.

You realize that you're posting this on a forum paid by the very person whose copyright you propose to hurt...

[The Giant]

I would like to know why people cant make fan translations. Many people cant speak english so well to understand all the jokes (and some people dont speak english at all...). I just cant see any reason, why tranlslations are not alowed and translators are beeing threaten with a legal action.

Fan translations ARE allowed, but only of the text. It is the use of the images that is not allowed, regardless of what language is in the balloons. It has nothing to do with not wanting people in another language to understand OOTS, however. It is solely an issue of the copyright on my images, something that I am not going to feel bad about defending.


I know its against the law to use original pictures in other webpages, but it doesnt hurt anyone,

But you're wrong. It does hurt someone, it hurts me. Not physically, obviously, but it weakens my ability to assert rights over these characters and images should there ever be someone who DOES try to make a profit off of my work. People have lost their trademarks because courts ruled that they did not defend them properly. If I know about these sites reusing my art and do nothing, I open myself up to losing the rights to these characters someday, and these characters put food on my table.

This is not hypothetical; there was a company (that shall remain nameless) who tried to assert that they were the publishers of the first two OOTS books by virtue of a distribution contract. Lawyers were involved and everything, and there are still places that list this other company as the publisher, years later. This sort of thing happens, and if it happened again today, they might make an argument that because of all the sites using the same art, I no longer had the right to claim the trademark on it.

So, yes, you can translate the comic, but no, you may not use my artwork when you do. Am I aware that some jokes won't work as well? Yes, but that's how it needs to be.

----------------------------
To answer other questions:


I thought that the Giant also rescinded his go-ahead on Text-Only translations recently, due to the fact that people kept abandoning them.

No, text-only translations are still acceptable (and in fact recommended).


Trazoi> Is OOTS copyrighted, though? My books only mention a trademark, and the copyright mention at the bottom of this website doesn't have the Giant's name.

Copyright is automatic. The moment I create it, it's copyrighted in my name, I don't even technically need to put a notice on it. The notice is more as a warning for anyone who reuses it on another site, as well as a way to put the URL of the site on each image file.

Further, all of the books are registered with the copyright office here in the US, so the books are double-covered too, even if I didn't put a copyright notice in them.


Shadow;5713724']Also, would you have to change the art in order to translate? All you would have to do is remove the text in the bubbles and put in the right language. The only art problem I see there is bubble size, and that's hardly a major issue.

"The art" includes the speech balloons and the actual lettering within them. In other words, any change to the GIF file that makes up the comic is, for copyright purposes, a change to the copyrighted work.

[Caleniel]

Also, this type of discussion always reminds me of Calvin and Hobbes.

That was a brilliant comic, and I enjoyed it very much for years. Bill Watterson specifically said in several interviews that he stopped drawing the strip because all the illegal misuse of the Calvin and Hobbes characters ended up ruining the fun for him. He simply couldn't bear all the poor quality, stupid fake C&H products that begang to flood the market.

There were no doubt a lot of other reasons involved, but it boils down to this: The frustrations of having your intellectual property abused could eventually be great enough to dissuade Rich from working on OotS. And that would be incredibly sad.

As for the rest, I think Lissou said all that needed to be said. There will be a time for translations. Now is not the time. (By the way, I am rooting for you, Lissou, when it comes to the French translation! I'm a person of absolutely no influence of course, but I think you'd be a great choice!)

[[TS] Shadow]

"The art" includes the speech balloons and the actual lettering within them. In other words, any change to the GIF file that makes up the comic is, for copyright purposes, a change to the copyrighted work.

Ok. Thanks.

[Lissou]

As for the rest, I think Lissou said all that needed to be said. There will be a time for translations. Now is not the time. (By the way, I am rooting for you, Lissou, when it comes to the French translation! I'm a person of absolutely no influence of course, but I think you'd be a great choice!)

Thanks! I didn't realise there were people rooting for me. I'm rooting for myself, too :P
This being said I realise if there are indeed official translations someday and I'm not chosen, the chosen person will be a better translator, and that's what matters. But I still hope it will be me, and I hope it's not too soon if it's after the series end (I don't want it to be over too soon >.>)

Thanks about clarifying the copyright thing, Giant. I really don't know about these kind of stuff. It's a relief to know that you do own a copyright though, it was scary thinking you didn't.
Good luck to all the text-only translators. I lost all of my data when my computer crashed (including my not-posted-online-for-obvious-reasons translation for Start of Darkness, and many strips that I never put in the thread) but I might start over as practice.

Plus, it can't hurt to think about all the hard-to-translate stuff ahead. It won't bring new readers and I'll probably keep it all to myself (or maybe not. I have no idea), but either way it should be good practice whether I ever officially translate OOTS or not.

It seems that the Giant isn't saying that text-only translations are illegal if they're hosted elsewhere. If I decide to share my work, I might do so in a blog or separate website rather than on these forums, if that's okay. If figure if I include a link, it would work just as well.

[Roland St. Jude]

Fan translations ARE allowed, but only of the text. It is the use of the images that is not allowed, regardless of what language is in the balloons. It has nothing to do with not wanting people in another language to understand OOTS, however. It is solely an issue of the copyright on my images, something that I am not going to feel bad about defending.

I would just add that the story/words are copyrighted as well. And that translations are also part of the author's copyright.

If the Giant is willing to allow public text-only translations, he can do so - which he has. But he could, consistent with his copyright, forbid them.

[Optimystik]

Also, this type of discussion always reminds me of Calvin and Hobbes.

That was a brilliant comic, and I enjoyed it very much for years. Bill Watterson specifically said in several interviews that he stopped drawing the strip because all the illegal misuse of the Calvin and Hobbes characters ended up ruining the fun for him. He simply couldn't bear all the poor quality, stupid fake C&H products that begang to flood the market.

Without disparaging Mr. Watterson in any way, I'll point out that his refusal to create or sanction any sort of merchandising outlet was part of the reason people made their own copies of his images. Sometimes demand creates its own supply. I agree totally with his decision at the time, since the syndicates that wanted his licenses were little more than predators, but his integrity came at an unfortunate price.

In this regard, the internet is a massive boon. Had it existed during C&H's run, he could have created his own t-shirts, coffee mugs etc. and bypassed the godawful publishers that wanted to pervert/cheapen his work (see also: Garfield) while still satisfying that need. I sincerely believe that if WACOM tablets and Cafepress were around back then that C&H would have been a webcomic, and one of the greatest to boot.

[awibs]

Not to be cynical but the translations would such, the gaming words probably be mistranslated, the puns lost, and if automatic translations such as babelfish are to be believed, Durkon's speech wouldn't be translated at all because the words wouldn't be recognized as existing words.
This being said, such a program might be a good idea.


Totally. Totally. It would be hard as hell to get right. You'd have to put in subset dialects out the wazoo to make it able to recognize statistically common alternate spellings that indicate dialect, not to mention the amount of work it would take to fill in common puns. Gaming words are no less likely to be programmed into its vocabulary than other slang - after all, the number of programmer nerds who game is not small. There's no reason one *can't* put slang, entire phrases, and alternate dialect-indicative spellings into a dictionary list - see: urbandictionary.com, dictionary.com (recognizes common mistakes and suggests "did you mean?" or with really common ones, links straight to the correctly spelled words) any number of slang and fictional-language auto translators (tolkeinesque elven, pirate, and d'nni come to mind as ones i've found and messed with over the years) and not in the least wikipedia. just because *altavsita* doesn't have it mean's nothing :>

But a huge index of vocab to include slangs and dialectual spellings isn't the hard part. Puns - now that's HARD - but not impossible. See: Mike, in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. Once again, Heinlein indirectly invents something by widely publishing a passing description that makes the details of an invention explicitly clear, years before anyone else had a similar idea, without actually getting a patent on it. That guy should've made so much money off waterbeds...

It should be as mindbogglingly hard as Mike's study of humor. Keep the industrious little bastards who are so fascinated with finding loopholes in illegal translations busy for awhile :>

[factotum]

I lost all of my data when my computer crashed

Crashes are Nature's way of telling you to keep backups. :smallsmile:

[Lissou]

Crashes are Nature's way of telling you to keep backups. :smallsmile:

I did have backups for most things, but not for this. You're absolutely right though. I guess it's lucky that what I lost can be replaced. (I've translated it once. I can do it again, and faster since I'll remember the problems I encountered and what solutions I found).

[Roderick_BR]

I remember when the site had it's own translated comic area. Too bad the bandwidth is eaten up so fast with just the regular comic.
Hmm. The gif idea would be interesting. You load the regular comic, and a transparent gif covers it, with the text in the normal areas, with an option to choose different languages. Better than repost the whole thing with different text. Maybe an idea for international webcomics someday.

[mikeejimbo]

No, text-only translations are still acceptable (and in fact recommended)

Oh, cool. Thank you Giant! :smallsmile: I could do a text-only translation into Latin, although there are surely better people to do it than I.

[Lissou]

Oh, cool. Thank you Giant! :smallsmile: I could do a text-only translation into Latin, although there are surely better people to do it than I.

No offense intended at all, but I'm curious about that. I've seen other things translated into dead or fictional languages and I'm always wondering... What's the point?
It seems to me that translations are intended for people who don't speak the original languages, and choosing a language that isn't actually spoken by any one at all as a first language, and by a very small bunch of people as a second one (many of which speak English better anyways) just boggles my mind.
It seems it's more targeted to people who already read the original, and I just find it weird.

So, if you could explain that to me I'd really appreciate :smalltongue:

[mikeejimbo]

So, if you could explain that to me I'd really appreciate :smalltongue:

I think most people decide to do it as a mental exercise. (Much like Harry Potter into Latin.) I would want to do it because it'd be a silly thing to do.

[Optimystik]

If you want a starting point, it would be cool to have the Deva's speech translated to Latin. It would make everything she said quite ominous, particularly when she lambasted Eugene.

[Runa]

Am I the only one who sees an easy solution that would be legal and probably allowed by The Giant? Granted, it would only work for Firefox users, though...

Basically: a browser add-on that allows one to take a properly-formatted text file (fan-translation in script format) and is programmed to display the text as footnotes of sort on the bottom of the window? So that you could read the comic and at the same time, have the text translation to immediately refer to, without having to switch windows? All you would have to do is have the text files in a consistent format (probably labeled with panel number, as they do for the sound effects translations on a lot of manga releases now?), so that when they display you can figure out who's supposed to be talking. Of course, you would have to have a system in place to find/load these text scripts, but I think it's easily doable with the massive number of programmers and language nerds that work on Firefox, let alone the large number of fans that say things like "I'd do a translation, but nobody wants to use it". Well guess what? That makes it a LOT easier to use it - WITHOUT altering the comic art. :D

Of course, though, this works a lot better if the comic is easy to translate... which honestly? I don't think OotS is, thanks to things like the aforementioned "four words" thing (though then again, things like that could easily be worked around with translation notes, which could also be included... Hmmm! :D ).

[WoDHells]

And would it be too much work to add a section for translations in the website? Real Life does that: the guy has a group of fans (I think they are fans, I don't think he hired them) working on the German translation, and the site has its German version.

I'm not suggesting that you make a new site for each language, but you could have a small section with the strips translated by a group of authorized people.

That way you would still retain your artwork within your "territory" and you would allow fans to help spread the OotS to other languages. I know that possibility already exists, but having to read the translations to the comic somewhere else sort of ruins it a bit.