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weenie
2009-01-29, 06:39 AM
I'll be playing a spiked chain fighter in an upcoming core-only campaign, and was wondering what feats would be worth taking. We're starting at lvl1, here are the stats:

Human fighter lvl1
str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 13, wis 10, cha 11

Feats I have so far are
Spiked chain proficiency, Combat expertise, Improved trip

I was thinking taking Combat reflexes at lvl 2, and after that I'll probably take Power attack and Cleave, but after that I'm out of ideas. I'm open to multiclassing, but the other core classes just don't look any better than straight fighter for this concept..

Also the game will be fairly low level I expect, so there's no need for planning too far ahead.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-29, 06:53 AM
You need Dodge and Mobility if you want to do what the Half Ogre Cheesemaster in OotS did (I'll find that comic in case you haven't seen it).

EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html . Roy's criticism always makes me laugh due to how his tactics appear to revolve entirely around charging things with 1 type of 2-handed weapon in addition to his inability to counter the cheese master.

weenie
2009-01-29, 07:08 AM
Nah, I'd rather not go into too much cheese. I just want to have a character with enough options in combat. And I'll be probably focusing on tripping, so are there any feats besides imp. trip that would raise my trip modifier? I've been thinking about multiclassing into barbarian, using the whirling frenzy rage variant, but the matter is still pending approval from the DM. Again, it's core only and I don't wish to rely on magic excessively.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-29, 07:23 AM
Core only does limit things. :smallfrown: I was going to recomment taking 3 points out of Cha and adding them to Wis for the Combat Focus feats, but those are in PHB2. To be fair, I tend not class the Cheesemaster as that cheap due to how it has weaknesses. A while back, I decided to draw up some Core only characters using the Elite Array for stats. Here's the Halfling Fighter build I came up with (those are the only core race I like so I used them for everything apart from Barbrians and Monks, which I used Half Orcs for):


Fighter: Dex 17, Str 12, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Stat gains: Int, Con, Str, Str, Dex.
Weapons: Spiked Chain, Composite Longbow and a Longsword with light armour.
Skills: Split between Ride, Swim, Jump and Climb.
1: Spiked Chain Proficiency, Weapon Finesse.
2: Dodge.
3: Mobility.
4: Spring Attack.
6: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise.
8: Improved Trip.
9: Whirlwind Attack
10: Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain.
12: Power Attack, Cleave.
13: Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain.
14: Improved Initiative.
15: Point Blank Shot.
16: Precise Shot.
18: Far Shot, Endurance.
20: Die Hard.

Once I got the feats which I needed for the Spiked Chain fighting, I decided to take some archery feats due to both a lack of other options and a desire to be more versatile. (Some things will be different for you anyway due to stat differences).

Eldariel
2009-01-29, 07:55 AM
You should definitely go into Barbarian very soon. In Core-only, there just isn't much allure in the Fighter-class as there're so few feats worth taking. After you get Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative, you've pretty much exhausted all the worthwhile Core-options. In fact, I'd play an Orc over a Human given the option, just 'cause Tripping is a straight Strength-check and thus you just want very high Str. Of course, that'd mean you'd need to invest more in Int to qualify for Combat Expertise (unless you use the Wolf Totem Barbarian), but the Str-bonuses would make up for that.

Anyways, I suggest 2-4 levels of Fighter and heading into Barbarian and maybe Horizon Walker over the rest of your career; the 1d4 turn Dimension Door is a very handy ability for positioning yourself optimally.

Kaiyanwang
2009-01-29, 07:55 AM
Core only does limit things. :smallfrown: I was going to recomment taking 3 points out of Cha and adding them to Wis for the Combat Focus feats, but those are in PHB2. To be fair, I tend not class the Cheesemaster as that cheap due to how it has weaknesses. A while back, I decided to draw up some Core only characters using the Elite Array for stats. Here's the Halfling Fighter build I came up with (those are the only core race I like so I used them for everything apart from Barbrians and Monks, which I used Half Orcs for):


Fighter: Dex 17, Str 12, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Stat gains: Int, Con, Str, Str, Dex.
Weapons: Spiked Chain, Composite Longbow and a Longsword with light armour.
Skills: Split between Ride, Swim, Jump and Climb.
1: Spiked Chain Proficiency, Weapon Finesse.
2: Dodge.
3: Mobility.
4: Spring Attack.
6: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise.
8: Improved Trip.
9: Whirlwind Attack
10: Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain.
12: Power Attack, Cleave.
13: Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain.
14: Improved Initiative.
15: Point Blank Shot.
16: Precise Shot.
18: Far Shot, Endurance.
20: Die Hard.

Once I got the feats which I needed for the Spiked Chain fighting, I decided to take some archery feats due to both a lack of other options and a desire to be more versatile. (Some things will be different for you anyway due to stat differences).

WFocus WSpec on a renged/thown weapon instead of Endurance and DieHard?

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-29, 08:01 AM
You could be right about that, Kaiyanwang (I'm not a big fan of WF, so I forgot about it when I got to that point:smalltongue:).

Draz74
2009-01-29, 11:43 AM
Does the SRD count as Core for you? If so, check out Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

JonestheSpy
2009-01-29, 05:27 PM
I heart spiked chain fighting - but then I also prefer the type of campaigns that are lower-magic and are less about taking down single ultra-powerful mosters.

To me, it's all about Whirlwind Attack. Every opponent in a 10' radius around you means you can spread out damage like crazy. I tend to think of Spiked Chain as a great ninja-style weapon, so taking a level or three of rogue helps immensely - a decent Acrobatic skill to tumble through the ranks of your foes so the rest of the party is flanking them, and you've got multiple sneak attack damage as well. Also works well for dropping from above or stepping out of the shadows into a mass of enemies.

Tripping, disarming, etc are also great uses for messing with single enemies.

All Core, no cheese.

KillianHawkeye
2009-01-29, 06:27 PM
You need Dodge and Mobility if you want to do what the Half Ogre Cheesemaster in OotS did (I'll find that comic in case you haven't seen it).

EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html . Roy's criticism always makes me laugh due to how his tactics appear to revolve entirely around charging things with 1 type of 2-handed weapon in addition to his inability to counter the cheese master.

I'm not sure if it was due to some errata, or just the general lack of understanding of the AoO rules, but this strategy is actually not possible. Movement can only provoke 1 AoO from an enemy regardless of how far you have to move through their threatened area. In other words, only the first square of their threatened area provokes an AoO. (You can still take multiple AoOs if you move through multiple creatures' threatened squares, however.)

PollyOliver
2009-01-29, 06:51 PM
You might want to check out Saph's Horizon Tripper; the main build is core only, and looks pretty fun.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415&highlight=Horizon+Tripper

Triaxx
2009-01-29, 08:51 PM
Is PHB2 part of Core for your DM?

I'd say go two levels of Fighter and then Barbarian all the way. A Spiked Chain is at it's best protecting the squishier party memberss. Especially if all you do is ready actions. Improved trip is a good start, add Sweeping Trip, and Combat Reflexes is a must.

PHB2 options: Vexing Flanker is a good one, especially if you're working with a Rogue. So does Hindering Opportunist.

Killian: Actually, it is. See, he was being stopped at 10'. So there was 5' remaining. The defender moved 5' away. Roy then re-entered the threat range. Unfortunately, it's also demonstrated why it's not a perfect tactic.

TempusCCK
2009-01-29, 09:02 PM
If you absolutely must have more core only feats, if only ones to fill up your Barbarian stuff, may I recommend Improved Unarmed Strike, and Two Weapon Fighting after you've got the basics? If you've got someone locked down with trips and they're in melee range, a little extra damage would never hurt, even if it is at a -2 to hit.

You can make a second attack with a kick without having to mess with with dropping your chain. So kick, hit with the chain, tripping, and get an AoO on it. Easy breezy.

KillianHawkeye
2009-01-29, 09:25 PM
Killian: Actually, it is. See, he was being stopped at 10'. So there was 5' remaining. The defender moved 5' away. Roy then re-entered the threat range. Unfortunately, it's also demonstrated why it's not a perfect tactic.

That is not remotely an accurate account of what is happening in that strip.

Given: Half-Giant wielding spiked chain with Combat Reflexes and a 15-foot reach. (Shouldn't it be a 20-foot reach if the HG is a Large creature? But that's besides the point.)
1) Roy charges. HG illegally takes 2 Attacks of Opportunity, one when Roy moves from 15' to 10' and another when he moves from 10' to 5'. Roy then apparently cancels his attack in order for HG to explain what's going on, but he is still standing adjacent to HG at the end of his turn.
2) On HG's turn, he uses Spring Attack to to move 5' left, attack, and move 15' backwards in an attempt to force Roy to charge him again next round. Technically, Roy doesn't have to charge, but taking the equivalent move won't help him avoid AoOs.
3) Roy charges again, and the cycle repeats itself until HG backs himself off of a cliff.
Note: The strip never actually shows Roy making his attacks at the end of his charges, but we can assume that they are ocurring between panels, as they are somewhat unnecessary to overall joke.

So to sum up where you are wrong, at no point is Roy being "stopped" by HG's AoOs, and you don't provoke an AoO for entering a threatened area in any case (just for leaving one). Nor is HG preparing his action to attack Roy when he enters the area, since he is using his turn to Spring Attack. And as I mentioned before, moving through a threatened area only counts as one opportunity (per enemy) regardless of how many squares are moved through.

Occasional Sage
2009-01-29, 11:58 PM
If you're going the Improved Trip route, you're smart to avoid the Weapon Finesse trap; you want to rely on Strength to reduce MAD. Power Attack is another really smart choice, I've seen lots of people assume that "can be used with Weapon Finesse" equates to "is a light, cannot-Power-Attack weapon", which would make the chain much worse than it really is.

With a decent Dex, I'll second Eldariel's suggestion of Combat Reflexes. Multiple AoOs tripping opponents, with a built-in follow-up attack with the Prone Target bonus begging you to load up Power Attack, is a fearsome thing when your foes are tripable.

Mobility might be a good idea, so that you can keep the fight fluid. The more people are moving around, the better you'll do with your reach and AoOs.

Suggestions:

coordinate this concept with the rest of your party. A character requiring lots of movement in combat can be hard, if everybody else is static.
take careful note of what provokes AoOs (like picking up a disarmed weapon) to maximize your usefulness

more to follow

olentu
2009-01-30, 12:15 AM
That is not remotely an accurate account of what is happening in that strip.

Given: Half-Giant wielding spiked chain with Combat Reflexes and a 15-foot reach. (Shouldn't it be a 20-foot reach if the HG is a Large creature? But that's besides the point.)
1) Roy charges. HG illegally takes 2 Attacks of Opportunity, one when Roy moves from 15' to 10' and another when he moves from 10' to 5'. Roy then apparently cancels his attack in order for HG to explain what's going on, but he is still standing adjacent to HG at the end of his turn.
2) On HG's turn, he uses Spring Attack to to move 5' left, attack, and move 15' backwards in an attempt to force Roy to charge him again next round. Technically, Roy doesn't have to charge, but taking the equivalent move won't help him avoid AoOs.
3) Roy charges again, and the cycle repeats itself until HG backs himself off of a cliff.
Note: The strip never actually shows Roy making his attacks at the end of his charges, but we can assume that they are ocurring between panels, as they are somewhat unnecessary to overall joke.

So to sum up where you are wrong, at no point is Roy being "stopped" by HG's AoOs, and you don't provoke an AoO for entering a threatened area in any case (just for leaving one). Nor is HG preparing his action to attack Roy when he enters the area, since he is using his turn to Spring Attack. And as I mentioned before, moving through a threatened area only counts as one opportunity (per enemy) regardless of how many squares are moved through.

Well the half ogre could have taken hold the line which I believe causes people charging to provoke an AOO for entering your threatened area.

Muad'dib
2009-01-30, 02:36 AM
Well the half ogre could have taken hold the line which I believe causes people charging to provoke an AOO for entering your threatened area.

That still doesn't change the fact that you only get one aoo per target per turn. Hold the Line isn't one of those feats or abilities (there are a couple maneuvers in the tob) that give you a free attack instead of an aoo when you would gain an aoo giving you the possibility of still taking an aoo against that target.

olentu
2009-01-30, 02:44 AM
That still doesn't change the fact that you only get one aoo per target per turn. Hold the Line isn't one of those feats or abilities (there are a couple maneuvers in the tob) that give you a free attack instead of an aoo when you would gain an aoo giving you the possibility of still taking an aoo against that target.

from srd

"Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus."

Now since I believe that the AOO from hold the line represents a different opportunity from the AOO granted by leaving a threatened square this should work. However I do not have my books at the moment and so can not check the rules on hold the line.

Muad'dib
2009-01-30, 02:46 AM
You should definitely go into Barbarian very soon. In Core-only, there just isn't much allure in the Fighter-class as there're so few feats worth taking. After you get Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative, you've pretty much exhausted all the worthwhile Core-options. In fact, I'd play an Orc over a Human given the option, just 'cause Tripping is a straight Strength-check and thus you just want very high Str. Of course, that'd mean you'd need to invest more in Int to qualify for Combat Expertise (unless you use the Wolf Totem Barbarian), but the Str-bonuses would make up for that.

Anyways, I suggest 2-4 levels of Fighter and heading into Barbarian and maybe Horizon Walker over the rest of your career; the 1d4 turn Dimension Door is a very handy ability for positioning yourself optimally.

I have to agree with Eldariel here. If being angry and chaotic are not against your player concept, go barbarian as soon as possible. If Unearthed arcana (in the srd) is allowed, I'd even say start out as a barbarian, you pick up spiked chain prof and combat reflexes at level one, then using the wolf totem variant replace uncanny dodge with improved trip without having to meet imp trip's prerequisites. If you go Human, you can have power attack at level one as well, combined with crazy barbarian strength you'll be tripping like a pro at level 1 (spiked chain is a trip weapon with reach so you can trip opponents 10 feet away without provoking until you pick up imp trip). And don't do the dodge, mobility, spring attack thing. Aside from dodge and mobility being close to useless in core, spring attack doesn't help you all that much and doesn't provide the opportunities that comic suggests it does.

Muad'dib
2009-01-30, 02:54 AM
from srd

"Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus."

Now since I believe that the AOO from hold the line represents a different opportunity from the AOO granted by leaving a threatened square this should work. However I do not have my books at the moment and so can not check the rules on hold the line.

Well I've been lied to for a while then, thank you for pointing that one out to me. I'm pretty sure Hold the Line is a replacement effect though, need to look that one up as you said.

Cruiser1
2009-01-30, 05:57 AM
I'm pretty sure Hold the Line is a replacement effect though, need to look that one up as you said.
Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine) (which is in the SRD so is easy to look up) isn't a replacement effect or anything complicated like that. It's a simple feat that allows you to AOO a charging opponent once they enter your threatened area. Combine that with a reach weapon, and you definitely get a 2nd AOO on them once they leave that threatened square in order to move next to you. :smallamused:

KillianHawkeye
2009-01-30, 06:17 PM
Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine) (which is in the SRD so is easy to look up) isn't a replacement effect or anything complicated like that. It's a simple feat that allows you to AOO a charging opponent once they enter your threatened area. Combine that with a reach weapon, and you definitely get a 2nd AOO on them once they leave that threatened square in order to move next to you. :smallamused:

Except that the Half-Ogre didn't mention having Hold the Line. In fact, in the strip he says it took him 5 feats to make his combo, which we know to be Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain). Based on this, I would say it is more likely that the Half-Ogre was simply cheating.

But yeah, if you included Hold the Line, then the combo would work, so long as you had ranks in Knowledge (Geography) to plan where your battles took place. :smallwink:

olentu
2009-01-30, 07:08 PM
Except that the Half-Ogre didn't mention having Hold the Line. In fact, in the strip he says it took him 5 feats to make his combo, which we know to be Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain). Based on this, I would say it is more likely that the Half-Ogre was simply cheating.

But yeah, if you included Hold the Line, then the combo would work, so long as you had ranks in Knowledge (Geography) to plan where your battles took place. :smallwink:

Well technically I do not think the half-ogre said that it was proficient with the spiked chain while combat reflexes and spring attack were mentioned specifically.

Cruiser1 I did not remember that hold the line was in the SRD so thanks for pointing that out.

ericgrau
2009-01-30, 08:03 PM
The feats you choose and which order really depend on your focus. Or if you want to be a generalist, get the fighter tree too. Technically you don't even need improved trip/disarm if you only use them every so often. With your reach your enemy doesn't even get an AoO. Combat expertise combines well with the AoO's you get when people get up or pick up their weapon. Power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) and cleave are really for mook killing. And there are other feats depending on the situation. There's some good strategy tips on the WotC website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archives. The categories are in the bottom right. You want the rules, tactics, etc. articles. There are a lot of other articles you don't want, so it's best to start there to get the right categories.