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PrGo
2009-01-29, 10:56 AM
I've heard of it and it caught my eye, but I don't know what is it except being a Cleric :P

So can someone tell me what Clericzilla means and how to make one?

Thanks in advance :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-01-29, 11:00 AM
Clericzilla is a Cleric that is a better Big Stupid Fighter than a Fighter. The basics are: "Buff yourself to high heaven and layeth the smackdown." It comes down primarily to spells like Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favor and so on, along with obvious stuff like Greater Magic Weapon. Easier with Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell to make all of the buff spells last all day. Otherwise it requires a bit more work. Still, the basic gist of it is outdoing the melee character at his thing while still doing your thing.

Darth Stabber
2009-01-29, 11:07 AM
if you have the feat Divine metamagic: persist spell, You can be clericzilla anytime you wanna be.

mikej
2009-01-29, 11:22 AM
Eldariel pretty much sumed the whole thing up, basically just a Clerc that completely overshadows other melee types while still being the number one in its own expertise. Just beware of flying dice that come your way by the DM :smallwink:

Simple & Easy

Human Cleric with Planning Domain + X Domain [Undead or Undeath I believe grants Extra Turning]
Domain Feat: Extend Spell
Human Feat: Persistent Spell
Level1: Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell]
Leve3: Extra Turning etc etc

monty
2009-01-29, 12:57 PM
Also, lots and lots of nightsticks. Mine are made of mozzarella.

PrGo
2009-01-29, 02:14 PM
Um... What's this "Divine Metamagic" thingy? I never heard of it...

Please, shine some light on this mystery.

monty
2009-01-29, 02:44 PM
Um... What's this "Divine Metamagic" thingy? I never heard of it...

Please, shine some light on this mystery.

It's a feat from Complete Divine. Basically, you put metamagic on your spells using turning attempts instead of increased levels.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-29, 03:03 PM
Which means you can apply metamagic to much higher level spells. It typically goes like this

Persistent Spell increases the duration of a personal or fixed range spell to 24 hours, but raises the spell level by 6. The cleric then spends 7 turn undead attempts instead and can apply it to personal buff spells (even spells Persistent normally couldn't be applied to), thanks to DMM.

You can check out both feats at Crystal Keep.

monty
2009-01-29, 03:08 PM
(even spells Persistent normally couldn't be applied to)

This only means that you can get spells of equivalent levels that would normally be higher than 9th. You could technically do that with the Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) feat.

You still need to meet the requirements of Persistent Spell (personal or fixed range, etc.) to do it.

Teron
2009-01-29, 03:08 PM
And because someone always tries this argument: no, it's not more effective for a cleric to buff a fighter rather than himself, because all the best buffs are self-only.

aje8
2009-01-29, 04:06 PM
Persistent Spell increases the duration of a personal or fixed range spell to 24 hours, but raises the spell level by 6.
I thought persistent was +4. Source please?

Yeah, what the others said is basically correct.

Note however that Clericzilla is also usually extremley opimitzed and casts only the best spells..... while still outshining the fighter.


Also, lots and lots of nightsticks.
By RAW nightsticks stack with themselves. Thus for every couple of Nightsticks a cleric buys, he can have another spell on himself 24/7.

Common Choices are lesser vigor(and mass lesser vigor on the party), righteous might and divine power/favor.

It's pretty insane. Clericzills generally also take many of their feats as Extra Turning and have Charima as high as or higher than Wisdom.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-29, 04:13 PM
I thought persistent was +4. Source please?

Ummm...Complete Arcane? Or for an online reference, Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf).

monty
2009-01-29, 04:14 PM
I thought persistent was +4. Source please?

My copy of Complete Arcane definitely says six, and so does Crystal Keep.

Eldariel
2009-01-29, 04:37 PM
SRD agrees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell).

monty
2009-01-29, 04:47 PM
SRD agrees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell).

Oh yeah, I forgot that's in there. Why the hell is it in the Divine section, anyway?

Eldariel
2009-01-29, 04:56 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot that's in there. Why the hell is it in the Divine section, anyway?

Unfortunately, the only SRD-eligible source the feat saw print in was Deities & Demigods. For whatever reason, WoTC decided that deities shouldn't be required to read splatbooks and thus gathered a bunch of handy splat feats into Deities & Gods and stated that "Deities can pick these feats in addition to the feats printed in PHB. Yes, these were printed already and were designed for player characters, but we decided to print 'em again just so you know that deities can pick 'em too! And we reprinted them exactly to keep them authentic." That's pretty much the crutch of it; Deities & Gods had a ton of 3.0 splatbook feats and since deity rules made it to SRD, so did all those feats too along with the deity material. And then they got their 3.5 update, giving us the 3.5 Knock-Down among others. Really pointless for 'em to reprint all those feats in Deities & Gods, but good that they did.

AslanCross
2009-01-29, 05:38 PM
The high-level cleric would cast Miracle to copy the Wu Jen spell giant size, which allows him to become quite literally a ClericZilla. A gargantuan Jozan shooting sunbeams out of his mouth is not something I'd like to face.

Joey/Flake
2009-01-29, 06:53 PM
I play alot of ClericZilla!'s...

I've had parties of them before..can be rather broken if they all do it correctly and in a way that support each other.

But to sum it up..

ClericZilla!'s = Win.

Salvonus
2009-01-29, 07:07 PM
Are they actually fun to play, though? :smallconfused: Not that I'm challenging it, but do explain the particular appeal of it. I know I made a DMM-using Cleric once, but ended up abandoning them because it just felt... bland. Do explain the merits of playing that sort of build - from both role and roll playing perspectives. :smallsmile:

kyoten
2009-01-29, 07:08 PM
What does a Nightstick do?

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-29, 07:15 PM
Eldariel pretty much sumed the whole thing up, basically just a Clerc that completely overshadows other melee types while still being the number one in its own expertise. Just beware of flying dice that come your way by the DM :smallwink:
Or an opposing caster who decides to layeth the smack with dispel magic. :smalltongue:

elonin
2009-01-29, 07:16 PM
I'd like to point out that a few extreme cases of optimized-till-broken charactors have wrecked the premise for those of us who are not intrested in walking around as 3.5 versions of 2nd edition ranger (basically a good at everything tank).

Even without DMM cheese clerics are a good class (I tend to prefer arcane) due to their versitility. A DM could run an adventure of nothing but clerics if the clerics took the right domains.

Salvonus
2009-01-29, 07:18 PM
Nightsticks grant you four extra turning attempts (for a cost of around 9k gp), just like the Extra Turning feat. They could be argued to stack, which is where a lot of abuse comes from. At higher levels, 9k is not such a big deal, so a Divine Metamagic-abusing character stacks them up to get tons of extra turning attempts and, as a result, extra free uses of Persistent Metamagic.

They come from Libris Mortis, by the way.

Toliudar
2009-01-29, 07:27 PM
Are they actually fun to play, though? :smallconfused: Not that I'm challenging it, but do explain the particular appeal of it. I know I made a DMM-using Cleric once, but ended up abandoning them because it just felt... bland. Do explain the merits of playing that sort of build - from both role and roll playing perspectives. :smallsmile:

I've played a couple variants on the DMM cleric, and they're fun to play because you don't have to be strong in the same way every day. If what you really need is all-day flight, you can do that. If you're going up the lich, or the sorcerer who metamagics his Enervations, you can persist a couple death wards.

I've rarely focused exclusively on the Divine Power etc melee machine, because while the best buffs are personal, there are still lots of good cleric buffs that are useful for others - especially the group ones. It's a collaborative game, after all.

Flavour is where you find it. None of the DMM clerics I've played have ever used it in quite the same way, and they all had quite different personalities.

aje8
2009-01-29, 08:12 PM
Ummm...Complete Arcane? Or for an online referenc
Well...... shut my mouth and call me fighter........ I could have sworn it was +4. Moving on.


I'd like to point out that a few extreme cases of optimized-till-broken charactors have wrecked the premise for those of us who are not intrested in walking around as 3.5 versions of 2nd edition ranger (basically a good at everything tank).

Even without DMM cheese clerics are a good class (I tend to prefer arcane) due to their versitility. A DM could run an adventure of nothing but clerics if the clerics took the right domains.
In my opinion, they is only one REAL DnD role. Full Caster. As long as you have a full caster(and he's well built), the other players can play anything. You can literally take on appropiate CR encounters with a Wizard, Cleric or Druid as long you buy an Animal Tank. (Riding Dog then Heavy Warhorse) At the higher levels, you don't need the tank. Seriously.


Or an opposing caster who decides to layeth the smack with dispel magic.
Leaving you with MERELY THE BEST DIVINE SPELLCASTER IN THE GAME. That doesn't really screw you over at all.

On the subject of one, I will tell you that on the few occasions I have played DMM Clerics, I have throughly enjoyed myself. My party's tend to be throughly optimized and face encounters signifcantly above our ECL on a regular basis though.

Douglas
2009-01-29, 09:16 PM
Well...... shut my mouth and call me fighter........ I could have sworn it was +4. Moving on.
It was, back in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting where it was introduced.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 01:24 AM
Or an opposing caster who decides to layeth the smack with dispel magic. :smalltongue:

He better be damn good at dispelling to overcome Cleric's Rings of (Greater) Counterspells, Rings of Spellbattle, Ring of Enduring Arcana and artificially +4 caster level from Beads of Karma. That means we'll be talking about CL ~10+character level and a few freely countered Dispels daily.

:o

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-30, 03:56 AM
He better be damn good at dispelling to overcome Cleric's Rings of (Greater) Counterspells, Rings of Spellbattle, Ring of Enduring Arcana and artificially +4 caster level from Beads of Karma. That means we'll be talking about CL ~10+character level and a few freely countered Dispels daily.

:o

Only 2 Rings at a time except with specific magic items.

Dispelling Wall would do it. Acts as a targeted Greater Dispel Magic on anyone that walks through it so no counter spell (I believe so anyways, I don't know the counterspelling rules). Plus with all of your buffs gone you may be a good divine caster but you're also still squishy. After you're dispelled a Rusting Grasp turned into a Ray kills your armor (or one of a number of other ways of getting rid of it). Then have a heavy wade in and shred him or summon something nasty next door.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 04:38 AM
Only 2 Rings at a time except with specific magic items.

Hand of Glory pretty much shows finger to that limitation. Literally. For 8000 you'll get a third one. And you still have to deal with the Cleric's Caster Level + 10 difficulty class for being dispelled, so unless you're 10 levels higher than him or have equally buffed dispel checks, you aren't going to dispel pretty much anything (and that's without the Cleric actually trying).

Joey/Flake
2009-01-30, 05:47 AM
Is playing a ClericZilla any fun?

Yes. The Build shouldn't decided how to play your character, as long a you personalise the actual 'flesh' of the character all should be fine.

Builds don't make a Character. Players do.

Monster don't kill Characters, DM's do.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 05:49 AM
Monster don't kill Characters, DM's do.

Only the bad ones. The good ones realize that PCs don't need help getting killed.

Aquillion
2009-01-30, 06:18 AM
And you still have to deal with the Cleric's Caster Level + 10 difficulty class for being dispelled, so unless you're 10 levels higher than him or have equally buffed dispel checks, you aren't going to dispel pretty much anything (and that's without the Cleric actually trying).On top of this, Divine Persist Clerics get to cast all their spells at one specific point in the day at their leisure. This means that they can abuse all sorts of limited or situational CL-boosters that wouldn't be feasible elsewhere.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 06:22 AM
On top of this, Divine Persist Clerics get to cast all their spells at one specific point in the day at their leisure. This means that they can abuse all sorts of limited or situational CL-boosters that wouldn't be feasible elsewhere.

That's where the +10 CL is coming from. +4 Beads of Karma, +1 Ioun Stone, +1 Random Other Divine Booster. And +4 from the Ring of Enduring Arcana. So a level 10 Cleric has a level 20 Cleric's DCs for dispelling. Without using Divine Spell Power. Or Consumptive Field. Or anything else really. Divine Spell Power would add another 4 to the deal. DC35 dispel checks. A level 20 Wizard using Greater Dispel Magic would have difficulty doing that. A caster with dispel bonus (CL+random bonuses) of under 15 would find it impossible. Of course, a dedicated dispeller would do it on level 10, but that's pretty much the only thing he's good for.

mikej
2009-01-30, 06:24 AM
Can't believe a thread about a simple question went to page two.


Originally Posted by Joey/Flake
Is playing a ClericZilla any fun?

Depends, a well built Cleric can give the same appeal of a holy warrior fighting its way through a field of enemies.

Aquillion
2009-01-30, 06:31 AM
It's fun if you want to play a more magic-heavy Paladin without a mount, basically. And be hugely overpowered, but you should only play a Clericzilla in a group where everyone else is going to be equally optimized anyway.

...also, if you intend to use it in a game, note that many DMs will disallow certain key parts of the Clericzilla's combos. Refusing to let Nightsticks stack is common, for instance (or even just disallowing Nightsticks altogether). Without that, Divine Persist is still powerful but not overwhelming. Some DMs may go further and houserule Divine Metamagic to prevent you from using it to add metamagic that you couldn't do normally (most alternative-metamagic-cost abilities made since have this restriction, eg. Lyric Spell; I don't know why they never just reprinted DMM with the fix); with that, you can't really Divine Persist effectively at all, and the cleric's melee power is restricted to going nova in individual fights where you have time to prepare (although at high levels you might be able to afford to do it on every fight, the preparation time is still a major limitation.)

Swooper
2009-01-30, 06:44 AM
Hand of Glory pretty much shows finger to that limitation. Literally.
But wouldn't most clerics use their neck slot for a Periapt of Wisdom? :smallconfused:

RebelRogue
2009-01-30, 06:56 AM
But wouldn't most clerics use their neck slot for a Periapt of Wisdom? :smallconfused:
Most clerics, yes. But for a 'zilla it may just be worth it, as you're not really relying too much on save DCs as opposed to pure martial power. You may still put on the periapt while preparing spells for the extra slots (I think...).

However, the whole build is one of those "check with your DM" things. Not everyone allows persist-cheese and (fewer?) will allow you to use nightsticks in this way.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-30, 07:01 AM
But wouldn't most clerics use their neck slot for a Periapt of Wisdom? :smallconfused:
Most clerics, yes. But for a 'zilla it may just be worth it, as you're not really relying too much on save DCs as opposed to pure martial power. You may still put on the periapt while preparing spells for the extra slots (I think...).

However, the whole build is one of those "check with your DM" things. Not everyone allows persist-cheese and (fewer?) will allow you to use nightsticks in this way. To which I would like to point out, that there in the book Magic Item Compendium are rules detailing adding enchantment bonuses to ability scores on any item, same price. So you can actually have a Hand of Glory with +6 Wisdom, if you so chose.

Is clericzilla fun? It can be, if you are the kind of person that gets annoyed with Full-Round attacks, you could take a level of Crusader and make yourself a Ruby Knight Vindicator for some maneuvers, while still preserving the essence of the clericzilla.

Edit: Additionally, there is some completely new cheese involved in being able to spend your turn attempts to get swift actions.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 07:08 AM
But wouldn't most clerics use their neck slot for a Periapt of Wisdom? :smallconfused:

MiC, in turn, shows finger to that limitation.

Swooper
2009-01-30, 07:20 AM
Ah, I always forget those rules :smallsmile:

Kommisar Engel
2009-01-30, 07:23 AM
Why don't a wizard fighting a Clericzilla just use a Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
It's the most effective method to to kill one, is it not?

Aquillion
2009-01-30, 07:49 AM
Why don't a wizard fighting a Clericzilla just use a Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
It's the most effective method to to kill one, is it not?
Yes, but why would you want to kill a Clericzilla if you don't get to keep their stuff?

By permanently ruining all the loot, Mordenkainen's Disjunction defeats the whole purpose of fighting in the first place. You might as well just teleport away and save yourself the 9th level spell slot.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 10:42 AM
Besides, the Wizard has much more elegant options than that. After all, he is a Wizard with native access to all the awesome spells.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-30, 12:41 PM
Hand of Glory pretty much shows finger to that limitation. Literally. For 8000 you'll get a third one. And you still have to deal with the Cleric's Caster Level + 10 difficulty class for being dispelled, so unless you're 10 levels higher than him or have equally buffed dispel checks, you aren't going to dispel pretty much anything (and that's without the Cleric actually trying).

Yes but with so many active buffs the odds are still good that 25% of them will go bye bye. And with a Dispelling Screen I just need to get the Fighter to bull rush you through it repeatedly or I can just use Telekinesis to throw you through it repeatedly (I need to make a character with a ring that grants at will telekinesis at 15th CL because that's just so much fun). After the third trip through the screen (walking back from wherever I through you too) you will be missing:

100% * .75 = 75% * .75 = 56.25% * .75 = 42.1875%

So about 60% of your buffs go bye bye. If that's 6 buffs then I've just cost you 42 turning attempts, which is 10 Nightsticks, which is 90k of your items.

Yeah Clericzilla is more of a "before the Wizard figures out what you're doing and proceeds to rip it a new one". Besides there are ways to get passive bonuses to dispel checks from other spells if I recall. That doesn't even account for what an Anti-Magic field does to you either.

Just turning one of those into a touch spell and applying it to the party meat grinder would shut down an Clericzilla faster than he could blink.

ravenkith
2009-01-30, 03:53 PM
So about 60% of your buffs go bye bye. If that's 6 buffs then I've just cost you 42 turning attempts, which is 10 Nightsticks, which is 90k of your items.

Yeah Clericzilla is more of a "before the Wizard figures out what you're doing and proceeds to rip it a new one". Besides there are ways to get passive bonuses to dispel checks from other spells if I recall. That doesn't even account for what an Anti-Magic field does to you either.


1. Key point here: Nightsticks are a 4/day item..so, you haven't really used them up:they'll be there for you the next day.

2. Anti-magic field is great and all, but is problematic in it's execution: first, since it's normally personal range, IIRC, you'd have to have a character that was pretty specialized in order to do it. There are, I think, three or four ways to get it done, including dweomerkeeper, war weaver and archmage...again, if I remember correctly, I'm AFB ATM. Most of those require some high level totals in order to make it happen (12 +, could be wrong here).

You can start abusing the DMM Clericzilla as low as level 5, in theory, so you are talking 7ish levels, for all intents and purposes, as unopposed king of the battlefield.

Then, when you get to the kind of level we are talking about, you have to remember that sure, Antimagic Field turns the cleric into a weak fighter (assuming that he has no countermeasures for such an occurrence), but all it takes is one move action to get out of the area of effect of the AMF, and then BAM. Cleric gets all his buffs back, as they are only SUPPRESSED in an AMF.

He can also cast (or use magic items) again, which would, in theory enable him to act to offset the AMF. Invisibility effects, escape effects, murderous spell chains...all of these would then come into play.

Plus, if you've AMF'd your fighter, none of his gear is going to work and no buffs will function...cleric casts air walk and gets 30 ft up....then goes to work with spells and/or ranged weapons.

AMF is a good idea, but not a fight-ender, and may cause you more problems than the DMM Cleric. Especially if that DMM cleric has the right PRCs.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-30, 06:02 PM
On top of this, Divine Persist Clerics get to cast all their spells at one specific point in the day at their leisure.

If he extends them as well, he only has to cast them at one specific point every two days at his leisure. :smalltongue:

Aquillion
2009-01-30, 07:15 PM
AMF is a good idea, but not a fight-ender, and may cause you more problems than the DMM Cleric. Especially if that DMM cleric has the right PRCs.Also, don't forget: A 'normal' cleric is going to be even more screwed in an AMF. The DMM cleric is likely at least partially built for combat, so they'll be able to function as a weak fighter if they have to (although, again, all they have to do is walk out of the AMF and their buffs all come back online.)

(This ignores things like the Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=478716), of course, who uses Initiate of Mystra to get access to casting in an AMF themselves... and then uses another trick to persist an AMF, so they're the only one who can cast in that area. Note that this also blocks Dispel Magic, and even Disjunction has a very low chance of working.)

ravenkith
2009-01-31, 06:26 PM
Also, don't forget: A 'normal' cleric is going to be even more screwed in an AMF. The DMM cleric is likely at least partially built for combat, so they'll be able to function as a weak fighter if they have to (although, again, all they have to do is walk out of the AMF and their buffs all come back online.)

(This ignores things like the Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=478716), of course, who uses Initiate of Mystra to get access to casting in an AMF themselves... and then uses another trick to persist an AMF, so they're the only one who can cast in that area. Note that this also blocks Dispel Magic, and even Disjunction has a very low chance of working.)

Twice betrayer: yeah that's a good one. REALLY high level though.

Of course, the only real way to fight a twice betrayer is arguably with a spellfire channeler...and that's if your dm allows it in the first place: that prc combo is ridiculously overpowered and no DM in his right mind would allow it, for fluff reasons if nothing else...

One of the best anti DMM Cleric weapons is a wizard specced in gishing through polymorph (or was, pre-errata). It's simple enough to buff up, switch to rust monster form, and eat the cleric's gear, and an operable strat at 7th is better than one at 12th, for sure.

Of course, WITH errata you are probably talking about needing to use a warlock, who can spam dispel all day from the air while invisible.

Yeah, sure the cleric could conceivably dispel, or toss off a few ranged spells, but a properly statted warlock can outlast the cleric's spell selection with the aid of a few heal items...and with the ability to spam flight, those melee abilities tend to go out the window pretty quick.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-01-31, 06:50 PM
Yes, there are indeed ways of beating a Czilla, Dzilla, or even Batman[though not Cindy ;) ]. That does not change the fact that those charaters are far stronger than almost any other character of their level. A Czilla needs an optimized dispeller to eliminate even a portion of his buffs, or a MDJ or a mission in a DMZ to eliminate all of them. However, an Optimized Dispeller is beaten by anyone else, a DMZ nerfs everybody(my group's Fighter has yelled at our DM about the last one), and MDJ is not only a 9th level spell but one that fills the same "Nuclear MAD" slot as Holy Word and Blasphemy, and destroys loot, too. Meanwhile Czilla is capable of beating any non-caster down with a stick, and is really only able to be weakened by other full-casters.

Eldariel
2009-01-31, 06:55 PM
Yes, there are indeed ways of beating a Czilla, Dzilla, or even Batman[though not Cindy ;) ]

There're means to defeat everything short of Pun-Pun. And that's because Pun-Pun is the means.

Epic_Wizard
2009-02-02, 01:28 AM
There're means to defeat everything short of Pun-Pun. And that's because Pun-Pun is the means.

No you can kill pun-pun too it just requires a "save and die" effect and a DM with a sense of humor.

Nohwl
2009-02-02, 01:51 AM
what is cindy?

Eldariel
2009-02-02, 04:31 AM
No you can kill pun-pun too it just requires a "save and die" effect and a DM with a sense of humor.

What part of "temporal regression" did you miss?

elonin
2009-02-02, 07:25 AM
No you can kill pun-pun too it just requires a "save and die" effect and a DM with a sense of humor.


All you need to do to "kill" Pun-Pun is have a dm who realize the basics of the game and not allow such shenanigans in the first place.

Eldariel
2009-02-02, 07:34 AM
All you need to do to "kill" Pun-Pun is have a dm who realize the basics of the game and not allow such shenanigans in the first place.

Hah, that doesn't kill him, that prevents him existing in the first place in this misguided fool's campaign world (which he'll dominate from another world). No, you cannot kill Pun-Pun.

elonin
2009-02-02, 08:02 AM
To put a finer point on it you are correct it doesn't kill him. It does however leave him without the attribute boosts.

NecroRebel
2009-02-04, 01:51 AM
what is cindy?

Cindy is the name of a blaster wizard character Emperor Tippy cooked up, and is often cited as the archetypal optimized blaster on these boards, capable of dealing several hundred damage, a status effect, and multiple negative levels to a target every round. She does this via liberal application of metamagic reducers to an Orb (of Fire I believe) along with half a dozen metamagic feats to deal massively-damaging ranged-touch-attack no-SR no-save attacks in 4th level slots.

I unfortunately don't know where to find the build, but someone else will surely be able to link you to the character sheet on mythweavers.

Epic_Wizard
2009-02-05, 03:35 AM
What part of "temporal regression" did you miss?

No-save instant death effects can still get him/her/it. I know some of (though I will not claim to be well read on the subject) the rational behind what you can do with Pun-Pun but that still doesn't get around liberal application of the rules in a position where the only thing between you and a lack of Pun-Pun is a natural 1 on his dice roll.

Anyways Pun-Pun has nothing to do with a Clericzilla except that neither one is unstoppable. (trust me, nothing is)

Aquillion
2009-02-05, 05:38 AM
No-save instant death effects can still get him/her/it. I know some of (though I will not claim to be well read on the subject) the rational behind what you can do with Pun-Pun but that still doesn't get around liberal application of the rules in a position where the only thing between you and a lack of Pun-Pun is a natural 1 on his dice roll.Uh. Even putting aside the temporal regression trick...

Pun-Pun has a divine rank as high as they want. Even a single divine rank makes you immune to failing on a natural 1 (plus it makes you immune to death effects, but obviously it's a given that Pun Pun has immunity to death effects anyway.) Divine Rank 16+ means you don't even have to roll -- you automatically get the most favorable result on every die roll. It is therefore not possible for Pun-Pun to roll a natural 1 on anything.

Pun-Pun also has every Salient Divine Ability, including Rejuvenation, which means that even if you kill them, they come back to life automatically unless you're a higher-ranked divinity (note that there are no higher ranked divinities, because Pun-Pun can raise their divine rank as high as they want.)

There are other, more complicated tricks, but those suffice for this much. Per RAW -- without invoking DM fiat -- it is simply not possible to permanently kill Pun-Pun post-ascension. Period.

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 06:54 AM
No-save instant death effects can still get him/her/it. I know some of (though I will not claim to be well read on the subject) the rational behind what you can do with Pun-Pun but that still doesn't get around liberal application of the rules in a position where the only thing between you and a lack of Pun-Pun is a natural 1 on his dice roll.

Anyways Pun-Pun has nothing to do with a Clericzilla except that neither one is unstoppable. (trust me, nothing is)

You should do your homework, grasshopper. The very point is that he is unstoppable. First, he's immune to any kinds of effects that induce death. Second, he's immune to die rolls. Third, he's immune to dying. Fourth, he knows everything that's happened or going to happen and thus can just prevent any event that could possibly threaten him. He's not a God, he's the God. His abilities are completely without boundaries, and he transcends death. Aquillion brought up few of the minor points:


Uh. Even putting aside the temporal regression trick...

Pun-Pun has a divine rank as high as they want. Even a single divine rank makes you immune to failing on a natural 1 (plus it makes you immune to death effects, but obviously it's a given that Pun Pun has immunity to death effects anyway.) Divine Rank 16+ means you don't even have to roll -- you automatically get the most favorable result on every die roll. It is therefore not possible for Pun-Pun to roll a natural 1 on anything.

Pun-Pun also has every Salient Divine Ability, including Rejuvenation, which means that even if you kill them, they come back to life automatically unless you're a higher-ranked divinity (note that there are no higher ranked divinities, because Pun-Pun can raise their divine rank as high as they want.)

There are other, more complicated tricks, but those suffice for this much. Per RAW -- without invoking DM fiat -- it is simply not possible to permanently kill Pun-Pun post-ascension. Period.

And all that is without Pun-Pun actually doing anything. Since he's also immune to all effects (have you seen Ikea Tarrasques? Well, Pun-Pun can get all their immunities along with infinite HP), can go back or forth in time and change anything he wants, and did I mention immune to everything? It's simply impossible to kill him; he can actually come up with his own abilities. It's not enough that he has every beneficial ability ever printed, he can create his own. All perfectly within rules. No mortal, divinity or artifact has any sort of power on him. He can also decide they don't exist, when they won't.

Basically, you can't kill omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being. It's impossible; there's nobody as powerful and there never has been and never will be due to his omniscience. And even if there was, he'd still be immune to everything. Including that. Because he's omniscient and thus knows everything and thus knows to be immune to everything and thus is immune to everything.

Tehnar
2009-02-05, 08:09 AM
For the buff monsters, a reciprocal gyre spell is the perfect solution.

Epic_Wizard
2009-02-06, 01:24 AM
You should do your homework, grasshopper. The very point is that he is unstoppable. First, he's immune to any kinds of effects that induce death. Second, he's immune to die rolls. Third, he's immune to dying. Fourth, he knows everything that's happened or going to happen and thus can just prevent any event that could possibly threaten him. He's not a God, he's the God. His abilities are completely without boundaries, and he transcends death. Aquillion brought up few of the minor points:

And he still goes squish if you hit him early enough in his career. Also if you want to knit-pick the build technically Fast Wild Shape doesn't qualify him for the Master of Many Forms PrC since it is not, in point of fact, the Wild Shape class feature.

Plus if you want to knit pick the whole thing over then you should, for all intents and purposes, still need a piece of the creature (diety) to be duped for the Ice Assassin AND even without that then one could argue (with about the same level of validity as the "Pun-Pun can grant himself abilities that don't exist" argument) that when you make something that has divine rank 1 then it's divine (read: over rides your puny little mortal magic) ability to ignore Mind-Affecting Affects removes your telepathic control of it.




And all that is without Pun-Pun actually doing anything. Since he's also immune to all effects (have you seen Ikea Tarrasques? Well, Pun-Pun can get all their immunities along with infinite HP), can go back or forth in time and change anything he wants, and did I mention immune to everything? It's simply impossible to kill him; he can actually come up with his own abilities. It's not enough that he has every beneficial ability ever printed, he can create his own. All perfectly within rules. No mortal, divinity or artifact has any sort of power on him. He can also decide they don't exist, when they won't.

Basically, you can't kill omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being. It's impossible; there's nobody as powerful and there never has been and never will be due to his omniscience. And even if there was, he'd still be immune to everything. Including that. Because he's omniscient and thus knows everything and thus knows to be immune to everything and thus is immune to everything.

Sure you can. It just requires Epic Level magic and a healthy dose of being a tricky bastard. The most obvious way to kill him is to make an epic level spell that makes him cease to exist by pasting him back when he was doing all of this crap. Other fun **** involves Black Holes and him in close proximity and simply asking the Lady of Pain for a favor.

Now before this devolves into an argument over Pun-Pun could we just leave it at "agreeing to disagree but maintaining some level of adult behavior and respectability" and get back to talking about uber clerics?

Aquillion
2009-02-06, 08:12 AM
And he still goes squish if you hit him early enough in his career. Also if you want to knit-pick the build technically Fast Wild Shape doesn't qualify him for the Master of Many Forms PrC since it is not, in point of fact, the Wild Shape class feature.You don't need to use Master of Many Forms to become Pun-Pun first level. The currently accepted method is:

Invoke Pazazu to wish for a Candle of Invocation. Use the Candle of Invocation to summon an Efreet, which gets you three wishes. For the first wish, Plane Shift to another plane. For the second wish, wish for another Candle of Invocation. If you're not a Scaled One native to Toril, the third wish should be a Polymorph into a Kobold. Then, use your second Candle of Invocation to Gate in a Sarruhk. Order the Sarruhk to grant you Manipulate Form. Presto, you are now Pun-Pun. The only requirements for this are a neutral alignment (or good if you want to invoke Pazazu twice for some reason), plus a high enough Knowledge: The Planes to know about him (which is quite doable at first level.) Being a Kobold helps, since then you won't need your third wish, but is not necessary.

Anything goes squish if you hit it early enough in its career. You can kill Vecna if you hit him pre-ascension, too. That doesn't really tell you anything about Vecna, though.

monty
2009-02-06, 10:31 AM
knit pick
Well, if you want to do that, then it's "nitpick."

Sure you can. It just requires Epic Level magic and a healthy dose of being a tricky bastard. The most obvious way to kill him is to make an epic level spell that makes him cease to exist by pasting him back when he was doing all of this crap.
Pun-Pun can also get Epic magic. And he can do it better than you. Also, killing something before they obtain their full power doesn't really mean much, as Aquillion pointed out.