[CUTE]Evaluation Process: Storybook Hero [class]

[Mephibosheth]

As outlined in the Evaluation Methodology thread, this thread is for discussing, editing and evaluation the Storybook Hero base class for Project C.U.T.E.

The Storybook Hero essentially fills the Fighter role in trhe CUTE world. A Stroybook Hero can fill almost any martial role in the party due to his/her proliferation of feats, impressive base attack bonus, and weapon and armor proficiency.

When I designed the Storybook Hero, I was working under the paradigm of replicating current D&D classes with tweaks based on CUTE content. Thus, the Storybook Hero's abilities are relatively vanilla (mostly bonus feats). I like the Storybook Hero's variability and it's ability to emulate a number of literary charaters, but if people want to replace some of the bonus feats with other abilities, I'm open to that as well.

Remember kids: Do not compare the Storybook Hero to any core D20 class, as CUTE classes aren't intended to be balanced with normal D&D classes.

Storybook Hero

As a child, it’s easy to get caught up in the adventures of your favorite storybook or movie characters. Some children take this excitement to extreme proportions, emulating the fighting techniques of their favorite character and becoming Storybook Heroes.
A Storybook Hero’s skills are gained from long hours of pretend battles. A Storybook Hero can act as a stalwart guardian of his/her friends, a deft and adroit combatant able to strike quickly and easily, as an expert in ranged combat, or as a hulking brute capable of hitting extremely hard. And these are only a few of the possibilities available to the Storybook Hero.
Adventures:
A Storybook Hero adventures most often to live out the life of his/her favorite character. They tend to have similar motivations to the character they emulate, though some just like doing the cool stuff described in the story/movie.
Characteristics:
Storybook Heroes are best suited to combat of all forms, their plethora of feats and combat-related abilities allowing them to fill many roles in combat. Their impressive hit dice and armor-using abilities make them ideal protectors and damage dealers.
Alignment:
A Storybook Hero’s alignment is always within one step of the hero he/she emulates.
Religion:
While a Storybook Hero may worship any god he/she chooses, most Storybook Heroes are so caught up in their literary idol that they revere him/her above any deity.
Background:
Storybook Heroes can arise from any environment that provides enough access to books/TV/movies.
Other Classes:
Storybook Heroes realize that their combat abilities synergize well with the abilities of both Darlings and Whiners and they appreciate the Darling’s skills as necessary to overcome challenges they can’t. They also appreciate the healing ability of Dreamers.
Role:
Storybook Heroes can fill almost any combat role, their plethora of feats making them incredibly versatile in their combat skills.

Game Rule Information
Abilities:
Strength and Constitution are key to effective wielding of weaponry and provide much needed hit points to the Storybook Hero. Dexterity provides much-needed armor class and initiative bonuses.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

{table]
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special

1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Archetype, Bonus Feat

2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat

3rd +3 +3 +1 +1

4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Luck of the Hero +1

5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat, Literary Favor 1/day

6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2

7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Heroic Transition

8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Luck of the Hero +2

9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3

10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Literary Favor 2/day

11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat

12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 luck of the Hero +3

13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4

14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat

15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Literary Favor 3/day

16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Luck of the Hero +4

17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat

18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6

19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6

20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Luck of the Hero +5, Heroic Apotheosis
[/table]
Class Skills
The Storybook Hero’s class skills are: Climb (str), Craft (int), Intimidate (cha), Imagine (wis), Jump (str), Listen (wis), Play (cha), Profession (wis), Ride (dex), Spot (wis), Swim (str), Tantrum (cha), and Use Rope (dex)
Skill Points at First Level: (4 + int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Subsequent Levels: 4 + int modifier

Class Abilities
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Storybook Hero is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all armor.
Archetype: At level 1, a Storybook Hero begins his/her emulation of a specific hero. The Storybook Hero choses the Archetype (see below) that best describes the character he/she emulates. This Archetype adds tothe Storybook Hero's class skill list, as well as the list of bonus feats available to the Storybook Hero. In addition to determining skill and feat selection, the Storybook Hero's Archetype grants him/her a special ability at 7th and 20th levels. These special abilities are described in the Archetype description. A Storybook Hero may only have one Archetype, and that Archetype cannot be changed by any means. A Storybook Hero's feat and skill selection combine with the special abilities granted by the Archetype to represent the character's attempts to become increasingly like his/her idol.
Bonus Feats: Beginning at level 1 and continuing at every odd level, a Storybook Hero gains a bonus feat from the Storybook Hero feat list. Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Storybook Hero (regardless of Archetype) may select from the following list of feats: Debate Death, Dramatic Pose, Imagine Proficiency (Armor), Imagine Proficiency (Weapons), Imaginary Tactics, Imagine Prowess, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Cleave, Quick Draw, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.
Luck of the Hero: Beginning at 4th level, a Storybook Hero is touched by the luck of his/her idol. The Storybook Hero gains a +1 luck bonus to all saves. This bonus increases to +2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th level.
Literary Favor: Nothing bad ever happens to the heroes of stories, and a Storybook Hero is infused with some of that good fortune. Once per day beginning at 5th level, a Storybook Hero can re-roll the result of a single attack roll, save, or skill check. The Storybook Hero can choose to make this roll after hearing the result of the first roll, and gains a +1 bonus on the re-roll. At 10th level and 15th level, he/she gains an additional daily use of this ability.
Archetypes

Gallant Knight Archetype

A Gallant Knight is a noble character, committed to high ideals of selflessness, chivalry, and doing what is right. A Gallant Knight reviles trickery and treason of all kinds, and holds brave deeds and martial prowess to be the highest of ideals
Examples: The Knights of the Round Table
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype adds Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) and Sense Motive to his/her list of class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype gains the ability to use Shield Other at a caster level equal to his/her class level on any ally within 30 ft thrice per day as a supernatural ability.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Strength score. Additionally, a number of times per day equal to 3 + his/her Wisdom modifier, a Gallant Knight may switch places with any ally within 30 ft, as the Benign Transposition spell as an Immediate action once per round.
Gallant Knight Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Gallant Knight may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: But it’s not Bedtime Yet, Play Nice, I’m not A-Scared, Stick Optimization, Heroic Sprint, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Negotiator, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder

Daring Adventurer Archetype

The Daring Adventurer is one of the most enduring archetypes in literature. He might be the dashing young privateer captain. He might be the youngest son of a duke whose audacious exploits in the military become famous. He might be the nobleman who risks his life shepherding innocents out of an oppressive country. Above all, a Daring Adventurer is skilled, dexterous, adaptable, and audacious.

Examples: Don Juan, Will Turner, The Scarlet Pimpernel
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Daring Adventurer Archetype adds Balance, Perform, and Tumble to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Daring Adventurer Archetype gains the Acrobatic Charge ability as a 7th level Swashbuckler. He/she may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking his/her path. He/she may make Jump, Tumble, or any other appropriate checks as part of the charge, should the situation require it.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Daring Adventurer Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Dexterity score. In addition, for a number of rounds per day equal to his/her class level, a Daring Adventurer may act under the influence of the Freedom of Movement spell. This ability is considered an Extraordinary ability.
Daring Adventurer Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Daring Adventurer may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Fashion Statement, Heroic Sprint, Stick Optimization, Warcry, Weapon Flourish, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense

Doughty Veteran Archetype

This guy's been around, and he can take any kind of punishment you give him. Forced marches and heavy loads? No problem. Hold the door against the horde while we make our escape? Sure, I can do that. He's smart and strong, but above all, he can take a beating and keep on going, no matter what. He's seen it all.

Examples: Gimli, son of Gloin, Hama, the doorwarden of Theoden, G.I. Joe
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Doughty Veteran Archetype adds Hold It, Heal, and either Knowledge (Geography) or Knowledge (Strategy & Tactics) to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Doughty Veteran Archetype can fight through wounds that would kill a less hardened warrior. This ability functions as a Rogue’s Defensive Roll ability, except the Doughty Veteran may reduce damage by half on a successful Fortitude Save instead of a successful Reflex Save. This ability is usable once per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Doughty Veteran Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Constitution score. Additionally, the Doughty Veteran gains Damage Reduction 10/magic.
Doughty Veteran Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Doughty Veteran may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: But it’s Not Bedtime Yet, I’m Not A-Scared, Insistent Foot Stamping, Kidney Stab, Tenacious Grappler, Endurance, Improved Grapple, Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical, Improved Shield Bash, Great Fortitude

Cunning Outlaw Archetype

A Cunning Outlaw is a daring hero living on the fringes of society. Often, they protect the disenfranchised from those with power who would oppress them. Cunning Outlaws are known for their brilliant and audacious ambushes, infiltrations, and tactics.
Examples: Robin Hood
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Cunning Outlaw archetype adds Hide, Move Silently, and either Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Local) to his/her list of class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Cunning Outlaw archetype can use the spell Disguise Self at a caster level equal to his/her class level thrice per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon Reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Cunning Outlaw archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Intelligence score. Additionally, he/she gains the Hide in Plain Sight ability. Finally, he/she takes a -10 penalty on Hide checks after sniping, rather than the normal -20 penalty.
Cunning Outlaw Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Cunning Outlaw may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Heroic Sprint, Smuggle, Weapon Flourish, You’re Not the Boss of Me, Stealthy, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Trip, Shot on the Run, Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus

Skilled Hunter Archetype

A Skilled Hunter is above all things a survivor. Able to live off the land for extended periods of time and track his/her quarry through the most inhospitable terrain imaginable, a Skilled Hunter prizes efficiency, resourcefulness, and awareness above almost all other qualities.

Examples: Chase (Sword of Truth), Aragorn
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Skilled Hunter Archetype adds Search, Survival, and either Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Geography) to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Skilled Hunter Archetype can use the spell Endure Elements at a caster level equal to his/her class level thrice per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Skilled Hunter Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Wisdom score. Additionally, the Skilled Hunter gains the ability to analyze the weaknesses of his/her opponents in combat by their actions and what the Skilled Hunter can deduce about them from past contacts/tracking/etc. As a Swift action, the Skilled Hunter can make a Wisdom check to analyze the opponent’s weaknesses. If his/her Wisdom check successfully beats a DC equal to the opponent’s character level or hit dice (whichever is higher), the Skilled Hunter gains a bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and armor class equal to his/her Wisdom modifier (minimum +1) against that opponent. This bonus lasts until the end of the encounter. This ability can be used only once per encounter for any given opponent, and a failure to beat the DC ruins the attempt for that encounter. If the Skilled Hunter encounters the same opponent in more than one encounter, he/she must analyze that opponent’s weaknesses again in order to gain the bonuses.
Skilled Hunter Bonus Feats: Unlimited Ammo, But it’s Not Bedtime Yet, Endurance, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Far Shot, Manyshot, Track, Mobility

Beloved Leader Archetype

In the literature of almost every culture, you can find tales of leaders so skilled and so charismatic that they inspire the very best in their followers and set examples for future leaders to follow. A Beloved Leader is one such individual, with the charisma to capture the hearts of his or her followers and the skills to lead them successfully into history’s pages.

Examples: King Arthur, Alexander the Great, King Rama
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Beloved Leader Archetype adds Concentration, Diplomacy, and either Knowledge (History) or Knowledge (Strategy & Tactics) to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Beloved Leader Archetype can grant a Moral bonus on attack rolls equal to half his/her Charisma modifier (minimum +1) to any single ally within 30 feet. A Beloved Leader cannot grant this benefit to him/herself. He/she can change the target of this bonus as a Swift action. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to the Beloved Leader’s class level (rounded down) and can be used thrice per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Beloved Leader Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Charisma score. Additionally, he/she can grant a Moral bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to his/her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to all allies within 30 ft. The Beloved Leader does not gain this benefit him/herself. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to the Beloved Leader’s class level (rounded down) and can be used five times per day. This ability replaces the Beloved Leader's Heroic Transition ability.
Heroic Leader Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Beloved Leader may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Fashion Statement, Heroic Sprint, I’m Not A-Scared, Stick Optimization, Warcry, Negotiator, Iron Will, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Great Cleave, Skill Focus

Seventh Son Archetype

A seventh son is a hero of humble origins, either poor or an unfavored later child of those of high station, who set out into the world to "make his fortune" but becomes a hero through his sheer innate nobility, his skill with a blade, his luck, and his wits. Though great fighters, seventh sons are known as much for their ability to avoid combat than their ability to fight it.

Examples: Jack (of the beanstalk), Prince Ivan (of the firebird)
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focussing on the Seventh Son archetype adds Bluff, Hide, and Use Magic Device to his/her list of class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focussing on the Seventh Son archetype can spontaneously cast a 1st-level spell or two 0-level spells from the Bard list, once per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon Reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Seventh Son archetype gains a floating +1 ability bonus. Each sunset, the Seventh Son can decide what ability this will apply to until the following sunset. The bonus is untyped and stacks with all other bonuses; it is not magical and cannot be dispelled. Additionally, he/she gains a magical animal companion (see below).
Seventh Son Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Seventh Son may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Animal Affinity, Athletic, Great Fortitude, Improved Feint, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Run, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy.

The Seventh Son's Animal Companion

At 20th level, the Seventh Son gains the service of a magical animal. The animal functions as a cohort to the Seventh Son, although the Seventh Son does not gain any additional benefits of the Leadership feat (such as followers).

The companion can be any terrestrial or avian creature with a base type of Animal. The companion gains the Fairytale Animal template, and can take class levels (including non-CUTE classes, at the DM's discretion).

A fairytale animal has a +1 level adjustment for the purposes of determining ECL.

Here's the Storybook Hero, submitted for comment. The current version contains the revisions made up through 9/28/2006 at 11:30 am central time.

Mephibosheth

[Fax Celestis]

It needs something at level 20.

[Elrosth]

How about one more use of something it could do at lvl 5? Whee! :)

In the mindset of emulating a wide variety of heroes, I like how customizable it is, but perhaps it could use a bit of characterization within the class rather than just through feat choice. Perhaps we could outline a list of basic genre that the hero would be drawn from, and get abilities based on that?

[Fax Celestis]

I'd also change it so that he gets something of a Luck of Heroes effect, perhaps gaining +1 to all saves every 4 levels.

[Elrosth]

Ooh. Since he's a storybook hero, and most stories have dramatic endings of some sort, could we come up with some sort of ability that has to do with the ending of a story? Perhaps once a month, at the beginning of an adventure, they can choose to declare the BBEG. Then at some point when they meet him, they'd get some sort of crazy awesome bonus against the BBEG, such as perhaps one automatically threatening and confirming attack roll, or the ability to be brought back to 1 hp after being knocked out by the BBEG. Perhaps there would be a list of things that could happen, and the time and effect is chosen by the DM.

Or maybe some sort of fate ability. Not sure how that one would work, but it'd have to do with something about the ending as well. Or perhaps once a month, they could draw on fate to aid them in their story, and fate grants them one item, temporary ability, or circumstance that will help them in their quest. It won't necessarily help at the moment, and they might not even realize it was important until the end, but it is.

[Mephibosheth]

Table's up, just to make things clearer.

I agree that he needs a level 20 ability. How 'bout something like "Hero Apotheosis" wherein the Storybook Hero becomes a true embodiment of the hero he idolizes. I don't have a clear idea of what that includes, but I'd assume ability score increase, special attack modes, etc. would be included.

Another idea I had is expanding the Storybook Hero's skill list depending on which type of hero he emulates. At character creation, a Storybook Hero would choose a character to emulate, who would fit one of several archtypes. The archtype he selects would then add a few (maybe two or three) class skills to his skill list. For example:
Noble Hero (ex. Ivanhoe, King Arthur): Add Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility) and Sense Motive to the Storybook Hero's class skill list
Wilderness Outlaw (ex. Robin Hood): Add Hide, Move Silently, and Knowledge (nature) to the Storybook Hero's class skill list.
Daring Rogue (ex. Don Juan, 3 Musketeers): Add Balance, Tumble, and Perform to the Storybook Hero's class skill list
etc.
This could then tie into the Storybook Hero's Hero Apotheosis, determining what kinds of special bonuses he'd get at level 20.

Just my thoughts

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

I'm thinking a big honking yes on the idea of expanding their skill list based on various kinds of hero. I like that idea, since it retains the martial role, and gives them a few more abilities to flesh out that sparse listing.

I'm also thinking maybe the bonus for Literary favor could increase, but eh, I tend to think in overpowered terms. I think he should at the very least get another use of it.

As to anything else...hmm....well, I was thinking, and it seems to me the Hero is just that- a Hero. Most of our other classes are realistic to children in that they are somehow ignoble, or odd- the Storybook Hero is our most 'good kid' class. I think tapping into that nobility for his 'powers' might not be a bad idea.

I also wouldn't mind some sort of morale-bonus feature of the class, possibly a progression leading to some fairly hefty bonuses for fighting in a group at 20th- something like the purple dragon knight, methinks?

Specifically, I think the Heroic Shield, Oath of Wrath, and Final Stand abilities might be adapted for the Hero with comparative ease, though doing so might require slightly downgrading the power of some other abilities to balance; or we can depart from existing models completely and just take the theme of nonmagical/psuedomagical ally buffs combined with a talent for formation fighting and do something new.

I actually sort of like that latter option. What do you guys think? Anyone?

[belboz]

To facilitate balance at each level, I thought I'd post a "comparison" table showing the Storybook Hero's advantages and disadvantages compared to the Dreamer, level by level. I'm leaving out saves, since these exactly balance (1 good, 2 bad).

This doesn't count the Storybook Hero's far better weapon and armor proficiencies, of course, so that should be taken into account.

Massive change: In addition to updating, I'm only including levels at which someone gains a "special" ability relative to the other one, and I'm only including the way those change. BaB and HP are also calculated relative to the *increased* advantage they SH has over the previous line. This way, if we start balancing at line 1 and then make sure that the tradeoffs balance out reasonably well, we'll end up with two classes balanced with each other. And it should be much easier than a true level-by-level comparison.

{table]

Level
BaB
HP (ave)
Special (SH)
Special (Dreamer)


1st
+1
+4
Archetype, +1 Bonus Feat
Out of it, Happy thoughts


2nd

+2

No, No, That Went Wrong! 1x/day


4th

+4
Luck of the Hero +1



5th
+1
+2
[td]Literary Favor 1/day



6th
+0/+1 (+1 extra)
+2

No, No, That Went Wrong! +1x/day


7th
+0/+1
+2
Heroic transition



8th
(-1 extra)
+2
Luck of the hero +1 extra



10th
+2/+2
+4
Literary Favor +1x/day
Even happier thoughts; No, No, That Went Wrong! +1x/day


12th
+2/+2/+2 (+1 extra)
+4
Luck of the hero +1 extra
It's Not Meant To Go That Way! 1x/day


14th
+1/+1/+2
+4

No, No, That Went Wrong! +1x/day


15th
(-1 extra)
+2
Literary Favor +1x/day



16th
+0/+0/+0/+1 (+1 extra)
+2
Luck of the Hero +1 extra



18th
+1/+1/+1/+2
+4

No, No, That Went Wrong! +1x/day


20th
+0/+0/+0/+2
+4
Luck of the Hero +1 extra, Heroic Apotheosis
It's Not Meant to Go that Way! +1x/day

[/table]

(edit again: I have no idea why the Dreamer's 20th level ability is showing up before the table...everything looks in order from here. Anyway, at 20th level, the dreamer gains an extra use of It's Not Meant to Go that Way!)

(below here the post is as it was originally)

------------------------

OK, on a separate note, my thoughts:

Archetype: I like this idea, a lot. I think it'd be good, though, to explicitly encourage players + GMs, in concert, to come up with their own archetypes if none of the ones we provide fit (we could, in addition to the examples, provide some guidelines for making balanced archetypes).

Luck of Heroes: A good idea.

"Fate": Also a good idea, although it would need some fleshing out. How's this? For one round per level (that is, you use this once and don't get it again until you gain a level):

1) The S.H. can spontaneously cast any spell that a sorceror, cleric, or druid of 1/2 his/her S.H. level could (at caster level=1/2 S.H. level), *or*
2) The S.H. can act as if s/he had *any* skill, with half the ranks of his/her current highest skill, *or*
3) The S.H. can act as if s/he had any class feature gained by any non-CUTE core class by half of his/her S.H. level.

Choose the BBEG: This I'm not so sure about. Most GMs like to maintain a *bit* more control over their plot than that would allow.

Heroic abilities: I'm not familiar with any of those. But a question on the "heroic" flavor of this class: Are all members good? Or can evil characters use the class to be a Storybook Villain, with archetypes like Pirate Lord, Evil General, Dangerous Desperado, Scary Ogre (no relation to the actual D&D monster), etc?

One thing to note: If you look at the table above and factor in superior weapons and armor, I'm not sure whether this class needs to be made more powerful (the balance looks about right to me). So perhaps any abilities we grant it should either have a downside or be balanced by stuff we take away. But I'm not great at evaluating these tradeoffs, so I might be wrong.

[Elrosth]

On the Choose the BBEG. The ability I was trying to illustrate wasn't to be able to choose who the BBEG was. It was basically just declaring the target for the ability. I suppose I could've said it better, and the way it was written you could just call anybody the BBEG. How about the DM chooses, based on whoever is the actually BBEG? Whoever is the mastermind behind they're trying to thwart.

But yeah, wasn't trying to give the ability to make someone a BBEG.

"You!"
"What? Aaah!" *stab*

As for the effects, they could be chosen by the DM too. I was just looking for some dramatic turnaround right at the end when it looked like they were losing.

I like the idea for Fate. Good stuff.

Alright, I'm having dinner. I'll look more later.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Hmmkay. I'm going to second/third/fourth or whatever the Luck of Heroes idea. I think +1 to all saves every four levels is just dandy.

As to archetypes, lemme lay out how this might work, in my view....
Archetype Feats:
At any time the Storybook Hero is entitled to take a bonus feat for their class, they may choose to take an Archetype feat. They may not choose more than one such feat at a time; if a Storybook Hero takes a second Archetype feat, they lose the benefits of the first irrevocably.
In addition, on taking an Archetype feat, the Hero must swear an oath relating to that Archetype; for instance, a dashing rogue might swear never to speak rudely to a lady of virtue, while a revered general might vow never to leave behind a man on the field of battle. Oaths that are frivolous, easy to fulfill, or otherwise not signficant do not qualify the Hero to take an Archetype feat (DM discretion). If the Hero breaks his oath, willfully or otherwise, he loses the benefit of the feat until he atones.

Revered General[Archetype]:
Occasionally, a hero of song and story finds his greatness not solely in his own deeds, but in the works his compatriots are capable of under his hand. Those Storybook Heroes inspired by such a respected leader-of-men may take on the Revered General archetype.

This archetype grants the following benefits:
-Treat Concentration, Diplomacy, and Knowledge (strategy and tactics) as class skills.
-If the Hero is tenth level or above, they can grant their Luck of Heroes bonus to any willing ally within ten feet as a free action; if they choose to do so, they lose the benefit of this bonus.
-At fifteenth level, the Hero may use the aid another action to grant an ally a +4 bonus, rather than +2; if they choose to do so, they gain a morale bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the bonus granted for as long as the ally so aided remains standing.
-At twentieth level, the Hero can grant their Luck of Heroes bonus as a morale bonus to attack and damage rolls to all allies that can see the Hero; in addition, any creature attacking the Hero or his allies is assessed a morale penalty of the same degree.

Just a veeeery rough cut of something that might, possibly, maybe, work.

I don't really like the idea of Fate; I think it broadens the class too much, is a bit too powerful, and doesn't fit the flavor. No offense, folks. ^^;;;

Some sort of sworn foe idea could also work, maaaaybe.

[Fax Celestis]

...could we perhaps get Archetypes to work like Vestiges? That'd allow a bit of flexibility in the Storybook Hero.

And perhaps limit it by him being required to possess and read from the particular book in order to "turn on" an Archetype.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

...could we perhaps get Archetypes to work like Vestiges? That'd allow a bit of flexibility in the Storybook Hero.

And perhaps limit it by him being required to possess and read from the particular book in order to "turn on" an Archetype.

I am unfamiliar with vestiges. v-v;
Summary?

[Fax Celestis]

They're in the Tome of Magic. Take a look of this excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=2) and this vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=4).

In short, you make a pact with a being via a Diplomacy check (or in this case, an archetype), and pick up some of their abilities as well as some of their mannerisms and even some of their appearance.

[Mephibosheth]

Sooo many ideas! How to sort through them all...

I support the idea of Hero's Luck beginning at 4th level. It's a good way to fill in those blank spots. I'll add it into the table, just to make things a bit clearer.

I do not like the idea of Fate, nor do I really support the idea of BBEG choosing. I think that the Literary Favor ability captures the idea of the Storybook Hero's importance well enough. As to BBEG choosing, I think that it's too vague and doesn't really fit with my vision of the class (more on that later).

I also don't really like the idea of giving the Storybook Hero Marshall- or Purple Dragon Knight-like abilities to buff allies. That may be important to some hero archtypes (like the Revered General submitted by Shiny), but not necessarily to all of them.

I also don't really like Shiny's modification of the hero archtype. I think that emulating a specific literary figure has to be the central focus of the class, and if the Storybook Hero can change it whenever he/she wants, it kinda defeats the purpose. I do, however, like the Revered General archtype and many of the abilities associated with it. Perhaps we could fold those into a Heroic Apotheosis ability given at 20th level.

Finally, I'm not really that attracted to using Vestiges to represent this, simply because it requires familiarity with a book not everyone has. If we make this an independent class ability, anyone can use it, whereas if we use a rules set from Tome of Battle, only people with access to Tome of Battle can play Storybook Heroes.

My vision of this culminating ability is one that grants a few abilities, somewhat similar to the Dreamer's Dream Avatar ability. I envision a +2 bonus to a relevant skill (Dex for a Daring Rogue, Str for a Noble Hero, Cha for a Revered General, etc) and a special, powerful, and unique ability or two. This ability would represent the culmination of the Storybook Hero's long training at mimicking their chosen idol (this training being represented by the rest of their class levels).

Finally, unlike Shiny, I don't see the Storybook Hero as a necessarily good-aligned class. I think it would be perfectly acceptable for a neutral or evil kid to emulate the dastardly villains from stories. I guess in this context, I use the word "Hero" to imply a major literary figure or a personal idol of the character, not necessarily a heroic individual.

Those are my thoughts.

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Mmmm, good, glad we agree on Hero's luck, and on Fate/BBEG etc.; for the time being, let's table that, unless people have an issue.

As to the buffin' stuffs...you do have a point. Could make a good option, but only an option, not a core feature.

That's also a good point as to archetypes being too much of a specific thing and an 'investment' in terms of character to be options that can be taken late or changed, so, nix my version.

I was actually considering the idea of "Storybook Villains"; it could work out pretty well. The Archetype I presented would be supremely easy to adapt for a great tyrant. Guess I got hung up on my personal imago of the Storybook Hero- won't happen again. [/lie]

I like, really like, the idea of an increase to a relevant ability; we could even organize the archetypes around that, for instance:
-Tireless brawler (con)
-Iron-thewed Warrior (str)
-Dashing Rogue (dex)
-Great Commander (cha)
-Warrior-priest (wis)
-Canny Combatant (int)
Names and characteristics subject to change, and that's just an idea, but it makes sense to me.
I'd say these are general archetypes, and a given Storybook Hero emulates one specific example of the above types, chosen at character creation- vestigeness thus.

The thing I'm hung up on is the whole 'culminating ability ' thing. The word culminating suggests to me that it's the end product of a continuous progression, and just popping into it at twentieth level seems....iffy, to me. I'd be a lot more behind something that starts at first level, maybe with just a few extra class skills (as per your initial presentation of the archetype concept), then grants modest bonuses to something appropriate to the archetype, then greater bonuses, then final bonuses at twentieth. Just my two cents.

Then again, this whole Archetype concept does add something to what is already on the whole a good, potent class. It's basically a fighter with a smidgen of extra flavor and a bit of extra bonus thrown in, and fighters do alright, don't they?

But I like the Archetype idea enough that I'd like to keep it, even if it means downing some other characteristic of the class to balance.

Thoughts?

[Fax Celestis]

Downing the bonus feats to every-three instead of every-two would grant a larger field of versatility in giving the class unique powers.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Downing the bonus feats to every-three instead of every-two would grant a larger field of versatility in giving the class unique powers.

That's what I'm thinking. The feasibility of that could depend on the nature/number of future Storybook Hero feats, but right now it sounds pretty nice.

[Mephibosheth]

Another option that would integrate the culminating Hero Apotheosis ability would be to create smaller lists of bonus feats that heroes of a specific archetype could take. For example, a Storybook Hero who selected the Wilderness Outlaw archetype would have access to feats like Track, Self-Sufficient, archery feats, etc. These lists could be pretty extensive and there should definitely be some sharing of feats (every Storybook Hero should have access to Imagine Prowess, for example), but they would allow the class to maintain its versatility while keeping the archtype theme throughtout. That way, the flavor of the Hero Apotheosis ability as the culmination of the Storybook Hero's previous training is more obvious.

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Another option that would integrate the culminating Hero Apotheosis ability would be to create smaller lists of bonus feats that heroes of a specific archetype could take. For example, a Storybook Hero who selected the Wilderness Outlaw archetype would have access to feats like Track, Self-Sufficient, archery feats, etc. These lists could be pretty extensive and there should definitely be some sharing of feats (every Storybook Hero should have access to Imagine Prowess, for example), but they would allow the class to maintain its versatility while keeping the archtype theme throughtout. That way, the flavor of the Hero Apotheosis ability as the culmination of the Storybook Hero's previous training is more obvious.

Mephibosheth

I was trying to think of an extensive, properly critical reaction to this, but the one that comes to mind is "Bingo".

[Elrosth]

And mine would be "Ditto". Do we want to go with that, and work on the categories?

Oh, and no issues on my previous suggestions, just trying to get the ball rolling. :)

[belboz]

I'm certainly not tied to fate, and Hero's Luck and Literary theme do seem to get at the same fluff idea in a less...complicated way.

Partially separate lists of feats for various archetypes sounds very cool, though potentially a lot of work.

So let me see if I understand the current thinking (about changes from the original SH class):

1) Luck of the Hero: Starting at level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter, the SH gains a cumulative +1 to all saves.

2) At first level, a SH chooses an "archetype." Each archetype defines extra sets of class skills and bonus feats, in addition to a "general" list shared by everyone in the class.

3) At some point (possibly 20th level), the SH becomes the Apotheosis of their archetype. This grants them an ability bonus (possibly +2 to a particular ability) as well as (possibly) a special ability.

4) The SH's bonus feats are reduced to the dreamer's pattern: One at level 2, and one at every three levels thereafter. This is to compensate for the extra abilities.

Am I understanding correctly?

Also, just to check: The Apotheosis isn't a temporary persona assumed with an action (like the Dream Avatar), right? It's a permanent assumption of an ability bonus and some new special abilities. That would make sense, at least to me, given the flavor.

[Collin152]

As it is, the raw number of Bonus Feats they are getting is a large amount of work, as we would need a large number of them in order to retain versatility and flexability, rather than limiting them.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

As it is, the raw number of Bonus Feats they are getting is a large amount of work, as we would need a large number of them in order to retain versatility and flexability, rather than limiting them.

Anyone who has a problem with hard work should probably find a less challenging project. ^^;;;

But you are, of course, correct. Shall we get cracking, or does our concept need more work before we refine it?

Belboz, excellent summary; I'm prepared to accept it and am awaiting Mephibosheth's approval.

[Collin152]

I am thinking that perhaps a phase of creation should be dedicated to bonus feats, so that we can really crank them out.

[Mephibosheth]

I think that works for me, though I'd preserve the Bonus Feat at level one as well, making it the progression 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, and 17. And Belboz, you're correct in your analysis of the Heroic Apotheosis ability.

Also, here's how I envision this working, using the Gallant Knight (Noble Hero renamed) as an example.

Storybook Hero General Feat List
Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Storybook Hero (regardless of Archetype) may select from the following list of feats: Debate Death, Dramatic Pose, Imagine Proficiency (Armor), Imagine Proficiency (Weapons), Imaginary Tactics, Imagine Prowess, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Cleave, Quick Draw, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse

Gallant Knight Archetype

A Gallant Knight is a noble character, committed to high ideals of selflessness, chivalry, and doing what is right. A Gallant Knight reviles trickery and treason of all kinds, and holds brave deeds and martial prowess to be the highest of ideals
Examples: The Knights of the Round Table
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype adds Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) and Sense Motive to his/her list of class skills.
Hero Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype gains a +2 Inherent bonus to his/her Strength score. Additionally, a number of times per day equal to 3 + his/her Wisdom modifier, a Gallant Knight may switch places with any ally within 30 ft, as the Benign Transposition spell as an Immediate action once per round.
Gallant Knight Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Gallant Knight may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: But it’s not Bedtime Yet, Play Nice, I’m not A-Scared, Stick Optimization, Heroic Sprint, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Negotiator, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder

Also, I'm currently keeping a list of things we need to flesh out in the future, and I'll add bonus feats to that list. However, as you can see, I think we can make use of many of the already-existing feats where there's no CUTE equivalent, especially since many CUTE feats require normal feats as a prerequisite.

What do you guys think?

[Yuki Akuma]

I think you're getting close to the perfect representation of the Storybook Hero.

However, I think archetypes should probably grant more than just a list of bonus feats and one special ability at level 20. Perhaps they could gain smaller abilities, at, say, levels seven and fourteen? Or whatever seems best, I don't know...

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Keeping the level one feat should help keep em' alive, so yeah, I'm good with that.

Yuki, given my obvious taste for gradually progressing ability chains and my love for class features, I'm tempted to agree; however, I think if we tailor the Archetype-exclusive bonus feats to their role sufficiently, they'll function as a sufficient lead-up to the apoethesis.

Meph, I like the gallant knight; sounds like a perfect example; I'd say those feat lists might be characterized as 'provisional', though, since I'm hoping we can turn out a few more Hero-exclusive feats now that we've established the archetype concept. Would you mind giving us a name/summary of the archetypes you're thinking about, so we can go ahead and start that up? Maybe a new thread for that, or we can keep it here, or the main sandbox- anything works for me. Were we still going with six ability-themed archetypes? Or would you like more/less?

Anyways, summary, going great so far, I'd love to see more of the same/similar.

[Mephibosheth]

I think that 6 archetypes sounds about right, but we should make a note that DM's and players are more than welcome to work together to create their own archetypes, especially since this list is mostly heroic-type characters. That said, here's what I think the archetypes should be:
Gallant Knight (Str) - as presented above
Cunning Outlaw (Int) - Could be either a woodland outlaw like Robin Hood or a more urban benevolent scamp fighting against oppression. Characterized by crafty schemes and unique tactics, as well as a hefty dose of "help the downtrodden by hurting the wealthy and mean" ideology. Add Hide, Move Silently, and Knowledge (nature) or Knowledge (Local) to the list of class skills.
Daring Adventurer (Dex) - The classic swashbuckling, brash, daring hero. Often colorful and charismatic, they're above all things audacious and adaptable. Add Balance, Tumble, and Perform to the list of class skills.
Beloved Leader (Cha) - Patterned after any number of beloved monarchs and generals, a Beloved Leader is tough and intelligent, but has a flair for attracting loyalty. They care about those that follow them (even if they don't show it), and the try to live with honor. Add Concentration, Diplomacy, and Knowledge (History) or Knowledge (Strategy & Tactics) to the list of class skills.
Doughty Veteran (Con) - This guy's been around, and he can take any kind of punishment you give him. Forced marches and heavy loads? No problem. Hold the door against the horde while we make our escape? Sure, I can do that. He's smart and strong, but above all, he can take a beating. He's seen it all. Add Hold It, Heal, and Knowledge (Strategy & Tactics) or Knowledge (Geography) to the list of class skills.
Skilled Hunter (Wis) - You always turn to a Skilled Hunter whenever you need to traverse an area of wilderness or track down an ellusive quarry. They're tough and quick, but above all alert and skilled in the hunt. Add Search, Survival, and Knowledge (Geography) or Knowledge (Nature) to the list of class skills.
So that's what I think as far as heroic archetypes. We could probably just change their names and flavor and keep the feat and skill lists the same for evil versions of them, especially if we make the feat lists big enought to allow some customization.

So, that's what I think about archetypes. Like I said, I think that expanding the list of feats would be a good idea. I've added it to my "list of things to do at a later date."

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Yeesh, keep coming up with stuff this good and we'll turn into a mutual admiration society (If we aren't already. Oh, the terror of it!).
Regardless, the Hero's your baby and you look like you're raising it up right. I especially like 'doughty veteran', mainly because I love the word doughty.

I can see the feats for these, too, or at least, the preexisting ones that fit; spring attack tree for the Daring Adventurer, Endurance and some others for the Doughty Veteran, for the Beloved Leader....not sure. Leadership is tempting but presents problems, so that one I'll have to think about. Skilled hunter should definitely get track, methinks. Cunning outlaw would seem to fit with combat expertise, wouldn't you say? It looks like we can definitely get some mileage out of existing content, and slot our own in (when we finish it, which will hopefully be soon) with ease.

[Yuki Akuma]

I just had an idea concerning the lack of class abilities in favour of bonus feats...

Perhaps we could make six PrCs representing the six archetypes? Those PrCs could get a few more class abilities, at the expense of Literary Favour and Hero's Luck (or whatever) and with less bonus feats.

Getting Hero Apotheosis at tenth level (in the PrC) might be a nice idea. So if you want to rush it, you can take the PrC, and if you want to get more bonus feats and more uses of the vanilla Hero abilities, you go straight Storybook Hero...

Just a thought.

[Mephibosheth]

For what it's worth, I like it, though crafting 6 PrC's is even more work than crafting 6 lists of feats and enough new feats to fill them. PrC's would allow people who wanted to really closely mirror a specific character to do so quickly, while simultaneously maintaining the fighting-bag-of-tricks feel I want to keep for the normal class.

Mephibosheth

[Yuki Akuma]

No, I think we should keep the personalised feat selection as well... but keep a lot of generic feats open to the class as well.

Don't worry, we won't make you make the PrCs. ;)

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

For what it's worth, I like it, though crafting 6 PrC's is even more work than crafting 6 lists of feats and enought new feats to fill them. PrC's would allow people who wanted to really closely mirror a specific character to do so quickly, while simultaneously maintaining the fighting-bag-of-tricks feel I want to keep for the normal class.

Mephibosheth
Hm....in theory, we could just craft one PrC that improves the bonuses given by the apoethesis/speeds it up, and is adaptable to archetype.
I'm kind of leery of that, though, since I feel like PrCs, while loads of fun and a great path to character customization, can be very easy to overuse. My question is, is anyone going to want to play a standard Storybook Hero? Bonus feats are nice, and so is Hero's luck, but....the lure of class features and interesting abilities might be stronger.
I hardly ever see single-class rogues, and I think that's kind of a shame.
I'm no fan of systems where Prestige Classes are more or less obligatory, and that's what this says to me.

For my two-cents, I'm inclined to stick with the Archetypes and apoethesis being part of the core Hero class itself, for the mechanical reason above, and also this; my perception of the hero is that it's about a specific figure the Hero idolizes. It seems to me that having six PrCs to represent "specializations" makes the core class feel sort of generalized, flavorwise- if they're idolizing a very specific literary figure from first level, they're already specialized, and don't need a PrC to specialize further.
I'm more inclined to go with the precedent of the specialist wizard system (to a degree); specific benefits for specializing in a particular field, as part of the core of the class.

It just feels a little better to me.

[Fax Celestis]

Wait, if you're "specializing as a wizard", why not have a specialist Archetype that you get the abilities of at, say 10th level, and ban two others. Every three levels thereafter (13, 16, and 19), you acquire another Archetype, one you didn't ban.

It'd certainly encourage long-term usage of the class.

[Mephibosheth]

I still don't like the idea of multiple Archetypes, not because it isn't a good/cool class ability, but because it doesn't fit with the flavor of idolizing a single hero so much that you emulate his/her combat style and gain prowess that way. In any other context, I'd be all for it, but I don't think it fits with this class.

In other news, let me know what you think about these revisions to the Gallant Knight Archetype and my new one: the Cunning Outlaw Archetype. Note that I've added a 7th level Heroic Transition ability.

Gallant Knight Archetype

A Gallant Knight is a noble character, committed to high ideals of selflessness, chivalry, and doing what is right. A Gallant Knight reviles trickery and treason of all kinds, and holds brave deeds and martial prowess to be the highest of ideals
Examples: The Knights of the Round Table
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype adds Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) and Sense Motive to his/her list of class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype gains the ability to use Shield Other at a caster level equal to his/her class level on any ally within 30 ft thrice per day as a supernatural ability.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Gallant Knight archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Strength score. Additionally, a number of times per day equal to 3 + his/her Wisdom modifier, a Gallant Knight may switch places with any ally within 30 ft, as the Benign Transposition spell as an Immediate action once per round.
Gallant Knight Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Gallant Knight may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: But it’s not Bedtime Yet, Play Nice, I’m not A-Scared, Stick Optimization, Heroic Sprint, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Negotiator, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder

Cunning Outlaw Archetype

A Cunning Outlaw is a daring hero living on the fringes of society. Often, they protect the disenfranchised from those with power who would oppress them. Cunning Outlaws are known for their brilliant and audacious ambushes, infiltrations, and tactics.
Examples: Robin Hood
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Cunning Outlaw archetype adds Hide, Move Silently, and either Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Local) to his/her list of class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Cunning Outlaw archetype can use the spell Disguise Self at a caster level equal to his/her class level thrice per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon Reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Cunning Outlaw archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Intelligence score. Additionally, he/she gains the Hide in Plain Sight ability. Finally, he/she takes a -10 penalty on Hide checks after sniping, rather than the normal -20 penalty.
Cunning Outlaw Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Cunning Outlaw may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Heroic Sprint, Smuggle, Weapon Flourish, You’re Not the Boss of Me, Stealthy, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Trip, Shot on the Run, Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus

What do you think?

Mephibosheth

[Fax Celestis]

Good. Mainly I was aiming for progression of some sort.

[belboz]

I agree--specialization to an archetype should be *necessary*, not optional, and you should only get to specialize to *one* archetype--the one your emulated hero matches.

But this really does open the worry of "What if my idolized hero doesn't meet *any* of those six archetypes?" I mean, how many folktales and fairy tales have had the following:

Seventh Son Archetype

A seventh son is a hero of humble origins, either poor or an unfavored later child of those of high station, who set out into the world to "make his fortune" but becomes a hero through his sheer innate nobility, his skill with a blade, his luck, and most of all, his wits. Though great fighters, seventh sons are known as much for their ability to avoid combat than their ability to fight it.

Examples: Jack (of the beanstalk), Prince Ivan (of the firebird)
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focussing on the Seventh Son archetype adds Bluff, Hide, and Use Magic Device to his/her list of class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focussing on the Seventh Son archetype can can use the spell Ventriloquism at a caster level equal to his/her class level thrice per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon Reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Seventh Son archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Intelligence score. Additionally, he/she gains a magical animal companion. This is as the companion of a Druid of 5 levels less than the Storybook Hero, but without "tricks" or "special abilities", and *with* the Fairytale Animal template applied.
Seventh Son Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Seventh Son may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Animal Affinity, Athletic, Great Fortitude, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Run, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy [would need 3 more, but you get the idea...]

Now, I'm not saying this is *better* than the Cunning Outlaw...but it's a totally different way to think of an int-favoring Storybook Hero (or could be int + wis based, perhaps with +1 to each at Apotheosis level). There are *so* many possibilities that I wonder if we shouldn't just give a couple of examples, plus rules for creating new ones. (e.g., add 3 new class skills, 11 new feats to the bonus feat list, at seventh level 3x/day use of some 1st level spell, at 20th level a total +2 bonus to abilities plus, er, some guideline for the special abilities).

Or maybe not. Perhaps just providing the 6 cases and leaving it up to open-minded GMs to consider other possibilities would be better.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't think the Seventh Son should have any bonuses to ability scores.

The Seventh Son, I think, would exemplify a "balance" between all six ability scores. I'm not sure how one would stat that out, though.

[Mephibosheth]

I was under the impression that we would present the 6 Archetypes as options or suggestions, and would both provide ideas for converting the flavor to non-good characters and encourage DM's and players to cooperate on establishing new Archetypes that fit the desires of the individual Storybook Hero. Seventh Son could very well be an Archetype example, especially if (like Yuki suggests) it doesn't have a bonus to an ability score, but replaces it with something else. It could be interesting to represent the Seventh Son's ability to pull out exactly the unlikely talent needed to save the day by giving them +1 bonus to any stat, that they can change once per day or week or something. I have no idea how this would be balanced, but it seems interesting.

Mephibosheth

[belboz]

Oh, OK. Wasn't sure whether that idea (encouraging development of new archetypes) had "taken"--the idea of organizing them around abilities, with one archetype per ability, made it seem like we were trying to come up with a comprehensive, symmetrical list.

I'm not even deeply devoted to my archetype suggestion, although if there's no general requirement that archetypes get a +2 bonus to a single ability at 20th level, it would probably be a good idea to include *some* example of that. (And I agree, upon reflection, that a +2 bonus to int, or to any particular ability, doesn't make that much sense for the Seventh Son, who might get by on wisdom or charisma just as easily).

(Nor, actually, am I really devoted to the name...just the best I could think of for a "youth, generally regarded as incompetent and with no real resources to speak of, goes out to seek his/her fortune and proves everybody wrong, usually winning the hand of some local princess/prince in the process" type of hero.)

[Yuki Akuma]

"Seventh Son" is the most awesomtastic name for an archetype in the totality of existance, and I will personally hunt you down if you change it.

;)

[Mephibosheth]

I agree. I like the name "Seventh Son." Incidentally, what do people think of my floating ability bonus suggestion?

Also, here's the Daring Adventurer Archetype.

Daring Adventurer Archetype

The Daring Adventurer is one of the most enduring archetypes in literature. He might be the dashing young privateer captain. He might be the youngest son of a duke whose audacious exploits in the military become famous. He might be the nobleman who risks his life shepherding innocents out of an oppressive country. Above all, a Daring Adventurer is skilled, dexterous, adaptable, and audacious.

Examples: Don Juan, Will Turner, The Scarlet Pimpernel
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Daring Adventurer Archetype adds Balance, Perform, and Tumble to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Daring Adventurer Archetype gains the Acrobatic Charge ability as a 7th level Swashbuckler. He/she may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking his/her path. He/she may make Jump, Tumble, or any other appropriate checks as part of the charge, should the situation require it.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Daring Adventurer Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Dexterity score. In addition, for a number of rounds per day equal to his/her class level, a Daring Adventurer may act under the influence of the Freedom of Movement spell. This ability is considered an Extraordinary ability.
Daring Adventurer Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Daring Adventurer may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Fashion Statement, Heroic Sprint, Stick Optimization, Warcry, Weapon Flourish, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense

What do you think? If anyone has comments/suggestions on these, or wants to take a crack at one of the remaining ones, feel free. Nay, feel encouraged!

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Since I'm such a masochist, responding to all posts in turn;

Fax, while you have a point about long-term usage, I side with Meph on the idea of multiple Archetype. I was just mentioning specialist wizards as an example of a class that grants the oppurtunity to....well...specialize.

Meph, Heroic Transition is pretty much what I was going for with the idea of a 'progression' to the culminating ability.
I like the revisions to Gallant Knight, and the Cunning Outlaw fits/works for me- I especially like having a ranged-combat archetype, since I too feel that ranged attacks get the shaft...was it fax who mentioned that somewhere? I can't recall. Anyways, nice...I don't see anything unbalancing, and it all seems okay with flavor.

Belboz, I am absolutely taken with the seventh son; that's awesome. However, I think Meph has pinned down your thoughts about restrictiveness vis a vis the archetypes. ^^;
They're just suggestions.

I also like the floating ability modifier idea, especially if it's an unnamed nondispellable bonus.

As to the daring adventurer: hats off to you, sir. You incorporated my (apparently quite logical n' nice) suggestions, and incorporating a swashbuckler ability is as smooth a fit as anything could be. I doff my swishy be-feathered hat to thee.

I may revise my previous crack at the 'Beloved Leader' cha-based archetype, but don't feel discouraged from doing so yourself, folks. ^^

[Elrosth]

Gah! I've fallen behind... Give a guy one week off, and he's busier than he is when he's working. I've been able to keep an eye on the thread, but not enough to do more than skim the posts. Certainly not enough to process and give useful feedback.

You guys have come up with some beautiful stuff. At this point, I am happy with every single thing I"m seeing. I'm back on board again, back to my overnights where I have 10 hours to do absolutely nothing, so I'll resume my regular posting as of now.

So how about we take a moment to try and come up with a random list of heroes kids might emulate with this class, to see how well our archtypes hold up?

[Fax Celestis]

King Arthur
Launcelot
Percival
Galahad
Robin Hood
Merlin
Taleisin
Tarzan
The Three Musketeers
Prince Charming
Sherlock Holmes

...to name a few of my storybook idols.

[Mephibosheth]

Those are exactly the characters I had in mind when I designed the class, and I think that you could make a version of all of them except Merlin (and maybe Taleisin [with whom I'm unfamiliar] and Tarzan) using the Storybook Hero Archetypes. Looks like we might be on the right track...

Mephibosheth

[Fax Celestis]

Taliesin on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliesin)

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

He's nobody too important...just, the reason Bards exist. x_x;
One of my heroes, too.

[Mephibosheth]

Thanks for the link, Fax. It was quite an interesting read.

In addition, behold the Beloved Leader!

Beloved Leader Archetype

In the literature of almost every culture, you can find tales of leaders so skilled and so charismatic that they inspire the very best in their followers and set examples for future leaders to follow. A Beloved Leader is one such individual, with the charisma to capture the hearts of his or her followers and the skills to lead them successfully into history’s pages.

Examples: King Arthur, Alexander the Great, King Rama
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Beloved Leader Archetype adds Concentration, Diplomacy, and either Knowledge (History) or Knowledge (Strategy & Tactics) to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Beloved Leader Archetype can grant a Moral bonus on attack rolls equal to half his/her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to any single ally within 30 feet. A Beloved Leader cannot grant this benefit to him/herself. He/she can change the target of this bonus as a Swift action. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to the Beloved Leader’s class level (rounded down) and can be used thrice per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Beloved Leader Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Charisma score. Additionally, he/she can grant a Moral bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to his/her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to all allies within 30 ft. The Beloved Leader does not gain this benefit him/herself. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to the Beloved Leader’s class level (rounded down) and can be used five times per day.
Heroic Leader Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Beloved Leader may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Fashion Statement, Heroic Sprint, I’m Not A-Scared, Stick Optimization, Warcry, Negotiator, Iron Will, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Great Cleave, Skill Focus

Sorry Shiny if I horned in on your territory. I used the Revered General ideas you posted earlier, with a few tweaks of my own. I'm still not sure which I like best, but bonuses to attack rolls seems to fit with the idea of the leader spurring his troops on to victory.

What do you guys think?

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

You should know by now I don't mind people honing in on my 'territory'. I'm lazy enough to appreciate it when you do my work for me. ;)

Looks great to me, I especially like the selfless nature of the abilities....and the focus on mounted combat, an underused thing. Remind me to come up with some mounts for C.U.T.E. asap.

[Elrosth]

Dogs and wagons spring to mind right away.

Edit: lol, my friend suggested a large turtle. "it wouldn't move that fast, but it'd be pretty cool."

[Mephibosheth]

Doughty Veteran Archetype

This guy's been around, and he can take any kind of punishment you give him. Forced marches and heavy loads? No problem. Hold the door against the horde while we make our escape? Sure, I can do that. He's smart and strong, but above all, he can take a beating and keep on going, no matter what. He's seen it all.

Examples: Gimli, son of Gloin, Hama, the doorwarden of Theoden, G.I. Joe
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Doughty Veteran Archetype adds Hold It, Heal, and either Knowledge (Geography) or Knowledge (Strategy & Tactics) to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Doughty Veteran Archetype can fight through wounds that would kill a less hardened warrior. This ability functions as a Rogue’s Defensive Roll ability, except the Doughty Veteran may reduce damage by half on a successful Fortitude Save instead of a successful Reflex Save. This ability is usable once per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Doughty Veteran Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Constitution score. Additionally, the Doughty Veteran gains Damage Reduction 10/magic.
Doughty Veteran Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Doughty Veteran may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: But it’s Not Bedtime Yet, I’m Not A-Scared, Insistent Foot Stamping, Kidney Stab, Tenacious Grappler, Endurance, Improved Grapple, Improved Bullrush, Improved Critical, Improved Shield Bash, Great Fortitude

As always, what do you think?

Mephibosheth

[Elrosth]

G.I. Joe

And as always, I like it!

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

As to examples; the pot-helm guy from the 'black cauldron' books, forget what the series itself is called...but it involves a pig-herdin' guy that comes to prominence. >_>;

Also, any one of Theoden's captains from LOTR would work; the Rohirrim are pretty dang doughty.
I'm sure there's more....can't think of any, though.

[Mephibosheth]

Here's the final archetype, the Skilled Hunter!

Skilled Hunter Archetype

A Skilled Hunter is above all things a survivor. Able to live off the land for extended periods of time and track his/her quarry through the most inhospitable terrain imaginable, a Skilled Hunter prizes efficiency, resourcefulness, and awareness above almost all other qualities.

Examples: Chase (Sword of Truth), Aragorn
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focusing on the Skilled Hunter Archetype adds Search, Survival, and either Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Geography) to his/her class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Skilled Hunter Archetype can use the spell Endure Elements at a caster level equal to his/her class level thrice per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Skilled Hunter Archetype gains a +2 bonus to his/her Wisdom score. Additionally, the Skilled Hunter gains the ability to analyze the weaknesses of his/her opponents in combat by their actions and what the Skilled Hunter can deduce about them from past contacts/tracking/etc. As a Swift action, the Skilled Hunter can make a Wisdom check to analyze the opponent’s weaknesses. If his/her Wisdom check successfully beats a DC equal to the opponent’s character level or hit dice (whichever is higher), the Skilled Hunter gains a bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and armor class equal to his/her Wisdom modifier (minimum +1) against that opponent. This bonus lasts until the end of the encounter. This ability can be used only once per encounter for any given opponent, and a failure to beat the DC ruins the attempt for that encounter. If the Skilled Hunter encounters the same opponent in more than one encounter, he/she must analyze that opponent’s weaknesses again in order to gain the bonuses.
Skilled Hunter Bonus Feats: Unlimited Ammo, But it’s Not Bedtime Yet, Endurance, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Far Shot, Manyshot, Track, Mobility

Later this morning (probably in a couple hours) I'll edit the front post to include all the changes we've made, including the Archetypes. Then we should get down the business of balancing this against the Dreamer. It seems like they should be pretty close, but we should take a look at both final versions just to make sure. As always, comments on any of the Archetypes are welcome. I'm not completely sure about the Heroic Apotheosis ability for the Skilled Hunter. It seems like it fits the flavor, but I'm not sure whether it's overpowered or underpowered or just right.

Mephibosheth

[Yuki Akuma]

+1 to attack rolls, damage rolls and armour class against one opponent per round as a twentieth level ability?

Seems a little underpowered. A bonus equal to his Wisdom modifier may be more appropriate.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

I think there's something in Complete Adventurer about using sense motive or something to assay someone's power level, but that doesn't really relate as much as I thought it would when I started this sentance.

As to balance: it is a bonus to attack, and damage, and AC, which is nice, but it's only a +1 bonus, and it only applies to one opponent, and you have to make what could be a very tough check to get it. I agree with Yuki, it's a bit low-powered.

By the way, you didn't say how long the bonus lasts; I would assume until the end of the combat or until the opponent dies, but one reading could suggest it's a one-round bonus, which I would be inclined to call underpowered.

And yes, I think editing the first post and balancing against dreamer are both good ideas.

[Mephibosheth]

Yeah, I think a bonus equal to his/her Wisdom modifier (minimum +1) would be best. Also, it was my intention to make the bonus last the duration of the encounter, so I'll clarify that above. Thanks for the input.

In other news: the front post has been updated to contain the most current version of the Storybook Hero. If I've missed anything, let me know.

Mephibosheth

[belboz]

Also, I'd give a circumstance bonus to the Wisdom check, depending on level of past contact with the individual (non-stacking):

{table]

+1
Has encountered other opponents of the same species


+2
Knows this opponent by reputation


+3
Has tracked the opponent or searched areas where it has lived or fought


+5
Has met opponent before or directly observed opponent for more than 5 minutes


+10
Is intimately familiar with opponent

[/table]

---

I'll go back and modify the comparison table to reflect the latest updates. Also, I think I'm going to go back and edit the Seventh Son, since it seems to be popular, to include suggestions and a few changed ideas of my own.

-------

Comparison table modified. I'll just repost the new Seventh Son:

Seventh Son Archetype

A seventh son is a hero of humble origins, either poor or an unfavored later child of those of high station, who set out into the world to "make his fortune" but becomes a hero through his sheer innate nobility, his skill with a blade, his luck, and his wits. Though great fighters, seventh sons are known as much for their ability to avoid combat than their ability to fight it.

Examples: Jack (of the beanstalk), Prince Ivan (of the firebird)
Class Skills: A Storybook Hero focussing on the Seventh Son archetype adds Bluff, Hide, and Use Magic Device to his/her list of class skills.
Heroic Transition: Upon reaching 7th level, a Storybook Hero focussing on the Seventh Son archetype can spontaneously cast a 1st-level spell or two 0-level spells from the Bard list, once per day.
Heroic Apotheosis: Upon Reaching 20th level, a Storybook Hero focusing on the Seventh Son archetype gains a floating +1 ability bonus. Each sunset, the Seventh Son can decide what ability this will apply to until the following sunset. The bonus is untyped and stacks with all other bonuses; it is not magical and cannot be dispelled. Additionally, he/she gains a magical animal companion (see below).
Seventh Son Bonus Feats: Whenever he/she gains a bonus feat, a Seventh Son may select from the following list in addition to the general Storybook Hero bonus feat list: Animal Affinity, Athletic, Great Fortitude, Improved Feint, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Run, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy.

The Seventh Son's Animal Companion

At 20th level, the Seventh Son gains the service of a magical animal. The animal functions as a cohort to the Seventh Son, although the Seventh Son does not gain any additional benefits of the Leadership feat (such as followers).

The companion can be any terrestrial or avian creature with a base type of Animal. The companion gains the Fairytale Animal template, and can take class levels (including non-CUTE classes, at the DM's discretion).

A fairytale animal has a +1 level adjustment for the purposes of determining ECL.

[fangthane]

Just a thought on organisation; the Archetypes sections are a little muddled and/or unclear; mostly the Leader type.

First, I'd question whether it makes more sense to give two morale-bonus abilities rather than simply upgrading the first to affect all allies within 30 feet and double the bonus at level 20.

I'm not sure it's necessary to round down someone's Storybook Hero class level though. :)

I don't know what specifically the fairy tale animal template might incorporate, but assuming it doesn't affect balance substantially for the animal companion the 7th son gets, said companion should probably be based on half their class level, similar to what a ranger receives. I acknowledge that I've no clue what that might actually entail in CUTE though, so if this doesn't make sense in that context, ignore it. :)

This may seem a silly question, but why isn't Luck of the Hero a luck bonus rather than morale? :)

[belboz]

Well, one disadvantage of a linear review process is that, since this is all a web, we sometimes have to make reference to unreviewed content (we do that with feats and skills a lot already), so we might have to revisit these things a bit of the unreviewed stuff goes away or dramatically cahnges during a review.

Here are my current thoughts on the FA template, which are a bit different (mostly to simplify them) from the original:

+1 LA (cohort only)
Type changes to Magical Beast
Gains Augmented subtype
Permanently Awakened (as per the spell)
+1 deflection bonus to AC
Can gain class levels or advance as base type
If size S or smaller and quadrupedal, can walk on back legs and use front legs to manipulate objects
Always have the following as class skills:
Use magic device
If Cha > 12: Diplomacy, bluff, perform
If Dex > 12 and size S or smaller: Disable device, escape artist, open lock
If Size at least L, or Size at least M and aggressive carnivore: Intimidate

[Mephibosheth]

Fangthane:

Thanks a lot for joining in our discussion.

First, could you clarify in what way you think the Archetypes section seems muddled. Reading through it, it looks pretty clear to me, but I'm pretty familiar with all of them. Do you have any suggestions as to how they can be made clearer for "outsiders?"

Second, the Beloved Leader's Heroic Apotheosis ability is supposed to be an upgrade of the Heroic Transition ability. I suppose I should make this more clear, though they grant the same type of bonus so they wouldn't stack (effectually the same). I'll go back and revise. Similarly, I changed the bonus type of the Luck of the Hero ability. I forgot that "luck bonus" was an option.

Finally, I only put the "rounded down" provision in the wording just in case we ever make up epic progressions for these classes. You can never be too careful!

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

I heartily second Meph's thanks for joining in. ^^

You beat me to my comments on the Hero's luck bonus type...not sure I get what you were saying with the morale bonus thing, though.

Meph, good on you for your precautions- remind me to be that careful when we get to some of mine, hmmkay?
^^;

[Elrosth]

Just a thought on the half-level stuff. Another option, should we not want to cut it straight in half, is to use a delayed progression like the ranger. Just knock it back four levels, and treat their level as that. Not sure that we'd need to do that in the first place, but there it is. Instead of getting far, *far* weaker as it went on, it would simply delay them getting it at all at first, and then it would only work at a lesser amount than their actual power, but a consistant amount that scaled evenly.

[Mephibosheth]

I don't exactly know what you're talking about, Elsroth. As far as I'm aware, the only time that half level comes into the equation is for determining the duration for the Beloved Leader's abilities, which currently last a number of rounds equal to half his/her class level. I added the "rounded down" caveat in order to forstall confusion, should we decide to add any epic progressions for CUTE classes, and just because it's what you do when designing classes (as far as I can tell). I don't know whether setting a duration for these abilities is necessary, or what people think the duration should be, but it seemed to make sense to me. If you think that it should last a number of rounds equal to the character's class level - 4, we can see what people think, balance wise.

I guess I'm asking you to clarify your previous post. If there is an issue, I'd definitely like to address it.

Mephibosheth

[Fax Celestis]

Character Level -4 is too long. 16 rounds! That's like...//counts Just over two minutes.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Character Level -4 is too long. 16 rounds! That's like...//counts Just over two minutes.

I believe she he was talking about the fairytale companion, but I could be wrong. Regardless; half class level (rounding down) for the Beloved Leader is dandy.

[Elrosth]

What I was talking about is that I need more sleep...

Sorry about that. I was tired, and I read a post earier in the thread that mentioned the ranger class, and also mentioned something about the duration. And so, I mentioned the -4 thing.

Feel free to disregard that completely, and sorry to pull off topic...

Edit: here we go.

I'm not sure it's necessary to round down someone's Storybook Hero class level though. :)

I don't know what specifically the fairy tale animal template might incorporate, but assuming it doesn't affect balance substantially for the animal companion the 7th son gets, said companion should probably be based on half their class level, similar to what a ranger receives. I acknowledge that I've no clue what that might actually entail in CUTE though, so if this doesn't make sense in that context, ignore it. :)

As you can see, my comment was based on absolutely nothing useful.




Back to the topic at hand, now that my brain is working I do think the half-level duration would work out just fine.

(oh, and I'm a he)

[belboz]

Fangthane--

Ah, sorry, I'd missed your 1/2 level comment.

What do you think of the new system (that treats the FA, which can after all have class levels, like a cohort for the leadership skil)? Too powerful? Obviously, the druid comparison doesn't really line up. We could limit the companion to ECL = SH level/2 round down...but an ECL 10 companion in a level 20 party seems...like a dead companion waiting to happen, no?

The way it is, a 20th-level 7th son with an "average" (for the elite array) Charisma of 11-12 will have an ECL 14-15 companion, which seems about right to me.

[Elrosth]

Well, what exactly would a companion do in this campaign? I know a lot of the combat-oriented things in this game are basic d&d, but outside of combat, a kid's world is a bit different from a grown-up game. Having a cohort of any decent level would be useful for plenty of things. I'm tired again, and I won't try to explain this too in-depth, but perhaps we should look at what the actual worth of the companion overall?

However, for a combat-oriented game, yeah. The companion would get hosed.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Fangthane--

Ah, sorry, I'd missed your 1/2 level comment.

What do you think of the new system (that treats the FA, which can after all have class levels, like a cohort for the leadership skil)? Too powerful? Obviously, the druid comparison doesn't really line up. We could limit the companion to ECL = SH level/2 round down...but an ECL 10 companion in a level 20 party seems...like a dead companion waiting to happen, no?

The way it is, a 20th-level 7th son with an "average" (for the elite array) Charisma of 11-12 will have an ECL 14-15 companion, which seems about right to me.

Huh. That...does change things.
For an animal companion, one with LA equal to 1/2 your level is fine; you don't usually let an animal companion fight, you let it scout. Now, a cohort...yeah, that'd have to be a bit more powerful.

Hoom. Not sure about this. >_>;
Everyone else, to me! To me, oh my kinsfolk! Correct my laziness!

[Mephibosheth]

I will confess that I find myself stymied when it comes to determining the balance of the Seventh Son Archetype. I like the idea a lot, so I don't want to just jettison it and move on, but I don't have any experience with balancing cohorts, especially as a class feature. An ECL 14 buddy seems far more powerful than the other Heroic Apotheosis abilities, but I share Belboz concern for its safety in a combat-heavy game. Perhaps we should treat the Seventh Son as 4 or 5 levels lower than his actual level for determining cohort level (similar to Elsroth's suggestion). That would net a cohort of ECL 10 or 11, which seems a bit more balanced to me. Yet again, I'm really on unfamiliar territory here. Anyone with more experience want to chime in?

Mephibosheth

[belboz]

Come to think of it, 10th or 11th ECL does sound fine. Actual fairytale animals aren't generally much use in direct combat (unless they can convince the opponent to change into a mouse), and an animal, especially a small-tiny animal, has one big advantage when the going gets rough--it can slip off and pretend to just be an ordinary animal, as long as it's not in an environment that makes that too implausible. I mean, who goes for the *cat*? It'll also encourage tiny and diminutive creatures who can be easily concealed, which sounds better too.

OK, why don't we forget the whole cohort/leadership score thing and simply say the companion can have ECL up to the SH's level / 2 (round down ;) ). I imagine we'll see lots of rogues, bards, and utility-focussed wizards, which sounds about right anyway. Or would a cohort with a -4 penalty to leadership be better? It's slightly more powerful (ECL 11) for an 11-CHA character, the same (ECL 10) for one with CHA 8, and still pretty serious (ECL 14) for one with 18 or higher CHA.

The other advantage of keeping the ECL so low is that we don't have to worry about CUTE vs. non-CUTE class balance issues. If you're travelling in a level 20 party, a level 10 companion from a normally barred class isn't going to mess up balance.

Elsroth--that's a good point too...it hadn't even occurred to me to wonder what the companion might do outside the imagination. I'm inclined to say it can't leave the imaginal plane (although, since the borderlands are co-existent with the material plane, it can still be "nearby" in a sense, and probably see its leader, though not vice versa). It seems weird, in the possibly non-fantastic real world, to have anthropomorphic animals with class levels. And what kid wants to explain to their parents why they're carrying around a water rat in a waistcoat? Or, worse, why a brown bear is following them?

[Elrosth]

Which brings the question of, regardless of abilities, what the companion is to represent in the real world. Is it represented physically somehow in the manner of imaginary swords being sticks? Or is it purely imagined?

On the first example, one could have a stuffed tiger like hobbes, or perhaps an actual garter snake they found in the backyard. In the second example, it's sort of a moot point.

[Yuki Akuma]

Perhaps the companion could be represented by a real animal, but not one exactly like the one in the imaginal plane?

Say, a poisonous viper in the imaginal could be a harmless grass snake in the real world. Or a bear could be a particularly large brown rat with a habit of standing on its hind legs. A cheetah could be a gold-and-black moggy.

I think it would be interesting if their imaginal powers caused them to gain a link with a real, although much less powerful, animal.

[Randomman413]

Might one ask what a moggy is?

[Yuki Akuma]

Might one ask what a moggy is?

Sorry. British slang for house cat.

[belboz]

I think it would be interesting if their imaginal powers caused them to gain a link with a real, although much less powerful, animal.

It would be interesting but, I think, less thematic. The idea I was going for was not that this was an enhanced critter (a favorite pet given extra power through the imagination), but rather that it was an actual character out of a story (Puss in Boots, for example, who I believe belonged to the third son of a poor miller--although it might not be a character from any story that exists outside the campaign). I certainly like the idea of "partially real" companions (such as if, one way or another, we decide to let an imaginary friend merge with a favorite stuffed animal) in general, but it wasn't what I was going for with the class.

In terms of coming out of the imaginal...well, I was making an assumption that maybe we shouldn't be making yet. I was assuming that, in most campaign universes, *everything* fantastic happened in the imaginal plane (possibly just in the imaginal borderlands, where you could still be "in your room", but not *really* in your room). But maybe we want to allow for imaginal escapees. In that case, I don't see why FAs shouldn't be among them. We might have to explain why adults don't seem to notice them, but we'd have to explain that for other escapees too.

[Yuki Akuma]

It would be interesting but, I think, less thematic. The idea I was going for was not that this was an enhanced critter (a favorite pet given extra power through the imagination), but rather that it was an actual character out of a story (Puss in Boots, for example, who I believe belonged to the third son of a poor miller--although it might not be a character from any story that exists outside the campaign). I certainly like the idea of "partially real" companions (such as if, one way or another, we decide to let an imaginary friend merge with a favorite stuffed animal) in general, but it wasn't what I was going for with the class.

In terms of coming out of the imaginal...well, I was making an assumption that maybe we shouldn't be making yet. I was assuming that, in most campaign universes, *everything* fantastic happened in the imaginal plane (possibly just in the imaginal borderlands, where you could still be "in your room", but not *really* in your room). But maybe we want to allow for imaginal escapees. In that case, I don't see why FAs shouldn't be among them. We might have to explain why adults don't seem to notice them, but we'd have to explain that for other escapees too.


It's simple. "Consensus reality".

They're not there because they don't exist. Everyone knows that.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Hm...
I've been thinking.
Okay, so that's a lie. I've been trading adorable tiny Rozen Maiden figurines at the local anime store.
But after that, I thought.

I'm curious as to our precise motivation for even allowing fairytale animals to acquire class levels, if their primary purpose is to be as effective in combat as an ordinary animal would be, slink around, scout, and generally not act like a PC. I'd say a cohort as a class feature is....just...not a good idea. The more I think about it, the more problems I see.

Would it be awful of me to suggest we just give him a bonus he can change at will (and let's face it, that's pretty nice) and a magical, anthropomorphic animal companion?

[belboz]

Hm. OK.

My motivation for allowing it to the *template*, when I created it, was that it seemed like some fairytale animals should have class levels. But you can also have FA's without class levels. Here's my thought:

You gain an animal companion as a Ranger of the same level, with the following changes:
[list] Any animal with less than 1 HD can be chosen as a base type (with no penalty), in addition to the choices listed.
The animal loses the tricks and "Special" benefits normally gained by a ranger's companion*, although it does gain the HD, natural armor, and ability bonuses.
The animal gains the Fairytale Animal template, although it cannot take class levels.

*That's because the FA template more than makes up for them.

At a later date, we might want to look at the FA's skill lists and beef them up a bit. But really, there's no need to be specific about it now; whatever we do with it, an FA companion, in addition to normal "scout" uses, will most likely act as a skill monkey (in terms of crunch) most of the time.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Hm. OK.

My motivation for allowing it to the *template*, when I created it, was that it seemed like some fairytale animals should have class levels. But you can also have FA's without class levels. Here's my thought:

You gain an animal companion as a Ranger of the same level, with the following changes:
[list] Any animal with less than 1 HD can be chosen as a base type (with no penalty), in addition to the choices listed.
The animal loses the tricks and "Special" benefits normally gained by a ranger's companion*, although it does gain the HD, natural armor, and ability bonuses.
The animal gains the Fairytale Animal template, although it cannot take class levels.

*That's because the FA template more than makes up for them.

At a later date, we might want to look at the FA's skill lists and beef them up a bit. But really, there's no need to be specific about it now; whatever we do with it, an FA companion, in addition to normal "scout" uses, will most likely act as a skill monkey (in terms of crunch) most of the time.



Sounds like a plan to me.
Any more issues with the Hero that need to be addressed?

[belboz]

Just two as far as I'm concerned: There are some recent changes not incorporated yet (everything since 9/28 ) and...unless I'm counting wrong, shouldn't there be a bonus feat at level 20? Or did I miss a conscious decision to skip it (level 20 is already a potentially overloaded level compared to the others).

[Mephibosheth]

Yeah, it was decided to skip the 20th level bonus feat, considering the other class features that come at 20th level.

Also, I think it looks pretty close to done. I've missed out on most of the discussion of the Seventh Son's animal companion, so if someone will post the final version of the Archetype, I'll insert it into the class description and post the whole thing over in the "completed content" thread.

What's next on the docket?

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Maybe one of mine next? [/hopefulpuppy]

As to the seventh son, it's as-written, but the version of the fairytale template posted has the "can gain class levels" part nixed.

I think that's all, unless I missed something?

[Mephibosheth]

I was going to suggest the Whiner for next consideration...

Also, I'm posting the Storybook Hero in the completed content thread, just an FYI.

Mephibosheth

[Yuki Akuma]

Meph, you need to edit the text for the Bonus Feats class feature. They no longer gain them at every odd level, remember?

[Mephibosheth]

Good call. Changes made...

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Good call. Changes made...

Wha-huh? The Fairytale animal cohort still gains class levels? I thought we talked about that...

Other than that, though, spiffing and jolly good.

Whiner's good by me, or the Darling. Whichever you guys like. ^^;

[Elrosth]

I'm looking forward to the Darling, personally. I'd be fine with the Whiner too, but my vote for next goes to the Darling.

[belboz]

...strictly speaking, we should be having a vote, right? Only the Dreamer was exempt from that.

I'm pretty sure the SH will get Core designation, and am absolutely positive it will get in at some level, so it's OK to have the post in the completed thread, but we really should have the final changes and a vote before going on to the next class.

Meph, can we have a final word on whether the changes to the FA companion are OK? After that, please everyone but Meph send me (unless you want them, Shiny) votes on whatever SH version Meph takes, within *2 days* of his posting.

Remember, the votes are for one of four categories:

A) "Core CUTE." High-quality, well-balanced, would fit with almost any version of CUTE. Compatible with all currently established core CUTE.
B) "Official CUTE Supplement." High-quality and well-balanced, but might not fit with the visions of a substantial portion of CUTE DMs. Compatible with all currently established core CUTE, but might not be compatible with other things from category B.
C) "Optional CUTE Supplement." Interesting and worthwhile, but with quality or balance issues.
D) Not admitted to CUTE.

Please vote for whatever level you think is most appropriate; I believe our vote-tabulating system should prevent any benefit from "strategic voting." To review, that system is:

First, the A votes are considered. If they have a majority, the class will be considered Category A.

Otherwise, the A votes will be counted as B votes, and if this gets B a majority, the class will be category B.

Otherwise, all A and B votes will be treated as C votes, and if this gets C a majority, the class will be counted as C.

If the D votes are a majority, the class will be counted as D.

[Mephibosheth]

Heehee. Sorry. Forgot about the voting...

Anyways, the changes to the Seventh Son's animal companion are fine with me, and I've posted the changes over in the Completed Content thread. I was away from my computer and slightly under the weather all weekend, and I'm a bit flustered by RL stuff right now, so if I've missed anything, let me know.

Oh yeah, the Darling sounds great to me as our next project.

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

That sounds like a decent voting system- expect my verdict in your inbox momentarily.
I can't remember why we didn't vote on the dreamer, but as it's in, huzzah.

As the changes to the FA companion are, in some degree, my idea, I obviously endorse them (and by extension, the current edit of the SH that includes them).

You might want to repost your voting method on the general methodology thread- just a thought.

Meph, we understand 100%. Here's hoping your flusterment clears soon, and thank you for all your contributions and hard work.

[Mephibosheth]

We didn't vote on the Dreamer because it was decided by consensus when we agreed to evaluate it first that the Dreamer was to be the benchmark by which all other CUTE content is measured, and therefore must be included in Core CUTE.

And I'm sure I'll be my usual calm, thorough self soon ;). Thank you for your work on CUTE. I've thoroughly enjoyed the project so far, and I look forward with anticipation to our playtesting campaign in the future.

Mephibosheth

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

We didn't vote on the Dreamer because it was decided by consensus when we agreed to evaluate it first that the Dreamer was to be the benchmark by which all other CUTE content is measured, and therefore must be included in Core CUTE.

And I'm sure I'll be my usual calm, thorough self soon ;). Thank you for your work on CUTE. I've thoroughly enjoyed the project so far, and I look forward with anticipation to our playtesting campaign in the future.

Mephibosheth

Ohhhh, right. I have to say, it's a delicious class and I love it so. Good benchmarkery.

And I'm sure you will be, too (and a good thing).
You've very welcome, though I must say my contributions aren't anything much; it's only in the framework of a collaborative effort and the extensive process of review you guys provide they amount to anything.

As to the campaign, nefarious plotting is already in full swing.

[belboz]

All right! Everyone get your votes in by Wednesday at 2:07 PDT. I'll try to have the results up that afternoon; Thursday at the latest.

That doesn't mean we can't start on the next leg, of course. The Darling? Shiny, that's your class. You'd reserved the right to automatically bypass the voting phase with one class; would you like that to be it?

Either way, would you like to start a Darling evaluation thread (at least for the feedback portion)?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

All right! Everyone get your votes in by Wednesday at 2:07 PDT. I'll try to have the results up that afternoon; Thursday at the latest.

That doesn't mean we can't start on the next leg, of course. The Darling? Shiny, that's your class. You'd reserved the right to automatically bypass the voting phase with one class; would you like that to be it?

Either way, would you like to start a Darling evaluation thread (at least for the feedback portion)?

What in heaven's name is PDT? Pacific Daylight Time?
Well, since you already have my vote...I suppose I needn't know.

I don't really recall any right-reserving, and if I did, I forgo it. This isn't my project more than anyone else's, so we'll be voting on mine just the same as we would anyone else's.

I'll go ahead and start a Darling evaluation thread for your perusal and delight.

Edit: Darling thread up and running as far as I can tell.

[belboz]

What in heaven's name is PDT? Pacific Daylight Time?
Well, since you already have my vote...I suppose I needn't know.


Oh, sorry, yes. PDT=Pacific Daylight Time = GMT - 7.

2:07 PDT = the time of Mephiboseth's post.

[belboz]

And the results are in!

5 votes for category A.
1 vote that I think was also an attempt to vote for category A, but said it was a vote for the *Dreamer* to be in category A, and the voter did not respond to my request for clarification.
No votes for any other category.

So the SH is Core CUTE (hurrah!), in a walkover of 5-0-0-0, probably intended to be 6-0-0-0.

[Mephibosheth]

Wow, thanks everybody! I'm shocked, really I am. I wish I were more prepared for this. *takes out prepared speech* I'd like to thank everyone who's supported me throughout this whole project. You guys have been great! My parents, my friends *gives thumbs up to guys in the front row, even though he doesn't know them* my coworkers...[/Acadamy Awards acceptance speech]

Seriously, thanks for your help, guys. The Storybook Hero is clearly a better class because your advice. And now, on to the next project!

Mephibosheth

[Elrosth]

*resounding applause*