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Aquillion
2009-01-30, 12:04 AM
It seems as though arguments over wizards come up all the time -- people saying they're too powerful, people trying to argue that they're not really so powerful when / because XYZ, people coming up with wizard-killer builds, etc, etc. Clerics get a bit of this, but not so much.

Druids... get nothing at all, even though in Core they're probably the easiest to break of the three classes. Wizards require at least some good knowledge of your spells and some thoughtful spell selection; to really break a cleric requires Divine Metamagic and Nightsticks, which aren't even core. But Druids are broken right out of the box, and are just about the only class that can be overwhelmingly powerful simply by taking the most immediately-apparent, obvious choices when building them -- you choose some big tough-looking creatures, you take Natural Spell, and you buff yourself or summon occasionally as needed, and boom, you're a DruidZilla.

And even when both are done properly, a druidzilla can break a game much more easily than a wizard -- most of a wizard's best options are for buffing, debuffing, suck-ifying or changing the situation to make their whole party more awesome. An even competently-made and played Druidzilla, though -- not even an optimized one, just a competent one -- can very easily outshine most of the party at their primary roles.

So why don't druids attract the passion wizards do?

olentu
2009-01-30, 12:10 AM
Well while not necessarily true for everyone, for some of the groups I have interacted with the druid is just so obviously super powerful there is no need for arguments over its power level

Random NPC
2009-01-30, 12:27 AM
Because wizards are the nerds that get all the A's in class and they shove it in your face. When you try to beat some senses into the kid, he crushes you with his arcane might.

Druids are more friendly and instead of shoving his A's, he helps you with your homework and even gives you some natural drugs.

So, there.

RS14
2009-01-30, 12:29 AM
Druids... get nothing at all, even though in Core they're probably the easiest to break of the three classes. Wizards require at least some good knowledge of your spells and some thoughtful spell selection; to really break a cleric requires Divine Metamagic and Nightsticks, which aren't even core. But Druids are broken right out of the box, and are just about the only class that can be overwhelmingly powerful simply by taking the most immediately-apparent, obvious choices when building them -- you choose some big tough-looking creatures, you take Natural Spell, and you buff yourself or summon occasionally as needed, and boom, you're a DruidZilla.

This. Complaints about the power of wizards are at least partially an excuse to show off one's cleverness and prowess at breaking the game. This doesn't really work for Druids.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-01-30, 12:32 AM
Because wizards are the nerds that get all the A's in class and they shove it in your face. When you try to beat some senses into the kid, he crushes you with his arcane might.

Druids are more friendly and instead of shoving his A's, he helps you with your homework and even gives you some natural drugs.

So, there.
Be honest, you've felt the heady power of the nerd rage before.

TempusCCK
2009-01-30, 12:53 AM
Druids have some very simple fixes that null their power. Alot of groups, I would assume, don't have such a problem with Druids because obviously, Natural Spell is cheese of the stinkiest variety. I assume most table ban it or change it. Most games don't play with the most broken wildshape forms either, though Grizzly is pretty badass, alot of that goes away when you take away Natural Spell.

It takes much much much more work to try and cull the power of Wizards, yes, you can ban some of the obvious abuses, but many spells are entirely reasonable in their power and it's the other side of the coin that has the issues. For instance, the Wizard should be powerful, however, we decided that the fighter should not be so powerful. We also decided it should be easy to take away a fighters powers (sunder, multitude of control spells), not so much so with Wizards (anti-magic field having such limited usage, so many spells with no save or SR), so on and so forth.

theMycon
2009-01-30, 12:56 AM
Also, a wizard is part of the "standard party" achetype. It's expected that someone will see it in nigh-every game. And, as you noticed, played badly, a wizard can suck. Their power is not so apparent- at lower levels their "crowd control" ability is rather subtle. Though, it's hard not to make them shine at higher levels.

The druid, on the other hand, is someone most casual/new players don't look to closely at. They look, they see "nature guy. Huh. Hippie. Weird." And they pass it on. Maybe after a while, they go "huh, divine casting hippie. Tom Bombadil? Still weird, but he had some oomph to him." Eventually they try him, or see someone try him, and notice that he's overpowered the whole way through, essentially no matter what you do with him. Playing straight Druid 20, taking completely random feats, only having the stats to cast his spells (even only in human form), he could threaten a normal-sized party on his own.


So it's a combination of "everyone's seen the wizard, but not all have seen his terrible power" and "not everyone has seen a druid, and there's no challenge to making him deadly."

sonofzeal
2009-01-30, 12:56 AM
Counterargument - I've actually seen Druids done really really badly, and played one at lower level (5-7), and my experience was.... meh. Wildshape forms are nice but generally have absolute crud for AC, animal companions start powerful but even a fairly optimized one rapidly becomes obsolete, and the spell list has good DPS and utility but very little "save-or-lose". Honestly, my first DM didn't allow dinosaur forms (citing "must know the creature" provisions), and that was enough to bring the Druid in line with everyone else.

My other proposed fix - ban "Natural Spell", and have Wildshape not grant "(Ex)" abilities like Pounce or Improved Grab. Minor stuff, really, but honestly (short of shapechange abuse) I don't think the problem is as deep as some claim.

Nohwl
2009-01-30, 01:00 AM
its not fun breaking the game if its easy.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-30, 02:15 AM
Anyone can break a Druid without even trying, without even knowing what they're doing. When someone who doesn't try or know what they're doing builds a Wizard, it ends up being... an Evoker. In a group that doesn't powergame, Druids are still broken but Wizards think their most powerful spell is Fireball. They don't think Wizards are all that great because they've never seen it for themselves.

mikej
2009-01-30, 03:44 AM
The druid, on the other hand, is someone most casual/new players don't look to closely at. They look, they see "nature guy. Huh. Hippie. Weird." And they pass it on. Maybe after a while, they go "huh, divine casting hippie. Tom Bombadil? Still weird, but he had some oomph to him." Eventually they try him, or see someone try him, and notice that he's overpowered the whole way through

+1

Exactly how it went in our group, minus the Tom part. Most us flipped through the papes of the PHB to see the eye candy which is the Monk or Fighter. At the time it was " Oh my god, the Monk gets something at every level " then I tried the Druid after playing the Sorcerer. Mid game I was taking on Dragons by myself and today I look back on my character design mistakes...like Combat Casting.

sonofzeal
2009-01-30, 03:45 AM
Anyone can break a Druid without even trying, without even knowing what they're doing. When someone who doesn't try or know what they're doing builds a Wizard, it ends up being... an Evoker. In a group that doesn't powergame, Druids are still broken but Wizards think their most powerful spell is Fireball. They don't think Wizards are all that great because they've never seen it for themselves.
I disagree. In all honesty, fully half of the druids I've seen played were Elves - and Elven Druids just don't have the Con to front-line. None of the druids knew of or used Wildling Clasps, so their AC in Wildshape was pathetic, the HP were rather shot from -2 Elven penalty, and Wildshape was reduced from a "win button" to an out-of-combat utility power. None of the ones I've seen could stand up to a credible melee threat in a fight, which seems to be the entire basis for the "Dzilla" argument - melee pwnage.

This is not to say that Druids can't rock in melee! It's just that doing so requires relatively careful management of AC and HP, both of which are likely to be in significantly shorter supply than for a traditional melee character. It also generally involves dinosaur forms, as there's a serious shortage of other animals that can dish out enough damage fast enough to make up for the horrible defenses.

That said, spontanious Summon Nature's Ally is not to be underestimated in the hands of anyone who remotely knows what they're doing with it, and Wildshape is still useful for granting flight and stealth and tracking and similar utility things without the need for spells.

Overall, I'd say Druid is a much easier class to play than.... well, just about anything. You can make bad choices and still be servicable (unlike a Wizard who can be totally gimped by a bad spell list, or a fighter with bad feats), but they do take some knowledge and effort to raise them up to zilla status. And, after seeing a lvl6 unoptimized Soulknife keeping pace with a lvl6 unoptimized Druid, I do think these forums tend to dramatically overexaggerate the gap in power.

Kaiyanwang
2009-01-30, 05:37 AM
This is not to say that Druids can't rock in melee! It's just that doing so requires relatively careful management of AC and HP, both of which are likely to be in significantly shorter supply than for a traditional melee character. It also generally involves dinosaur forms, as there's a serious shortage of other animals that can dish out enough damage fast enough to make up for the horrible defenses.


About dinosaur wildshape and similar things.. a lot of players think that once they have enough HD, they can assume an animal form without considering the familiarity of the character with the specific animal. I mean... you could even have a campaing without dinosaurs (or parrots, or whatelse).

In my experience, a friend of mine played a druid through epic (Lyona, High Elf Druid 35 warshaper 5). She didn't optimized so much her PC, splitting feats between wildshape, metamagic, melee and ranged fight.


She never shined over others in anything other than things directly connected to the wilderness (she was the party scout) - even if at high level she was enough, alone, to overcome some non-combat challenges.

Anyway, she had always something to do. She was the guardian and the backup of the group's main healers (a Cleric and a OAdv Shaman). Her buff were always well accepted (The groups had a Monk and a Rogue/Ninja, so she SPAMMED Owl's insight).

Wildshaping in a big,strong animal supported some stunts of the barbarian (or helped the Fighter and the Iaijutsu master to keep at bay an horde of enemies), and some big boss (i remember a nasty dracolich) went down a round earlier because she cast some sunbeam spell to support the Sorcerer, the Psion and the Wizard blasting.


I could go on longer, but my point is that yes, is difficult to play completely bad a druid even with a bad unoptimized build. You have to put work to have both the wrong spells and the wrong feats and the wrong animal and the wrong ideas for a specific situation.

Anyway, it took a certain effort even to play a game-breaking Druid, unless the"threatened of be screwed" party members (the meleers in general) and the DM are.. well.. n00bs. Just my opinion, of course.

Celeres
2009-01-30, 06:02 AM
i've seen a bad druid played.

at 6th level his biggest tricks were using call lightning and produce flame.

even my dwarf barbarian who was optimized for hit points rather than dealing damage did more than he did.

it was truly a sad sight.

mikej
2009-01-30, 06:05 AM
Bad ones could exist, maybe the Druid player took a feat other then Natural Spell at level six. :smallsigh:

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-30, 06:19 AM
Bad ones could exist, maybe the Druid player took a feat other then Natural Spell at level six. :smallsigh: as one of my regular druid players would say "Wait... druids have feats at level six?"

Talic
2009-01-30, 06:26 AM
Bad ones could exist, maybe the Druid player took a feat other then Natural Spell at level six. :smallsigh:

Not so. Druids take either Natural Spell or Master of Many Forms at level 6.

But a MoMF druid rarely sees the advantage of a low power spell in combat, when "AAAAHHHH SHAPESHIFTER EATING ME NOM NOM NOM" is available.

That said, I suppose there are examples when it'd be good. But getting that wildshape to a swift action would be more hoss, IMO.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-30, 06:31 AM
Not so. Druids take either Natural Spell or Master of Many Forms at level 6.

But a MoMF druid rarely sees the advantage of a low power spell in combat, when "AAAAHHHH SHAPESHIFTER EATING ME NOM NOM NOM" is available.

That said, I suppose there are examples when it'd be good. But getting that wildshape to a swift action would be more hoss, IMO. Well, technically the MMoMF is one of the bad druid choices :tongue:
It's a better option for Wildshape Variant Rangers. Besides there are a lot of feats that will allow you to get additional wildshape forms.

Aquillion
2009-01-30, 06:35 AM
Well, technically the MMoMF is one of the bad druid choices :tongue:
It's a better option for Wildshape Variant Rangers. Besides there are a lot of feats that will allow you to get additional wildshape forms.Yes, but it's bad for a druid choice, which means it's still generally more powerful than any class outside the very top tier.

BobVosh
2009-01-30, 06:35 AM
Well, technically the MMoMF is one of the bad druid choices :tongue:
It's a better option for Wildshape Variant Rangers. Besides there are a lot of feats that will allow you to get additional wildshape forms.

Only because spells are that awesome. MMoMFs is not weak by any noncaster standard.



Also noone argues about this, because everyone doesn't want to poo in the woods. That is a prereq with the ability to turn into bears. Imagine trying to larp it as well...

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-30, 06:49 AM
I'm well aware of the fact that the only reason that MMoMF is a "bad" choice for druid is because spells are that damn good, it's still a very powerful prestige class, and one that I have enjoyed watching in action.

RebelRogue
2009-01-30, 07:00 AM
I disagree with the OP: people in here speak about druid overpoweredness pretty frequently!

mikej
2009-01-30, 07:05 AM
Not so. Druids take either Natural Spell or Master of Many Forms at level 6.

MoMF is very tempting but I rather abused my full spell casting or be patient for Shapechange later on.

I would leave MoMF for the wildshape variant Ranger.

Talic
2009-01-30, 07:20 AM
Yes, yes.

The Consensus is the following:

Druid > MoMF Druid

I will agree, from a mechanical power perspective.

However...

MoMF Druid > Almost every Non-caster/partial caster class.

Stealth? Housecat, plant, etc.
Combat? <insert beefy animal>
mobility? <insert flying critter>

The list goes on.

bosssmiley
2009-01-30, 07:22 AM
Q: Why don't people hate on druids?
A:
Because all the ladies love Getafix ("Aaaaah, yeah."). :smalltongue:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Panoramix.png

Serious head on. People don't bother with anti-druid builds because the druid is so obviously broken as a class (full caster + shapeshift + animal companion = gestalt, not a Core class). They go straight from laughter to swinging the nerfbat.

Aquillion
2009-01-30, 07:42 AM
I disagree with the OP: people in here speak about druid overpoweredness pretty frequently!
People do, yes, but usually just in an offhand comparison to a CoDzilla or whatever, and it evokes none of the passion wizard arguments do. Look in your typical wizard thread, and it's obvious there's people on both sides with chips on their shoulders -- people who regularly repeat the same arguments about how "Wizards are not so powerful if XYZ" or "Wizards are awesome if they just XYZ" or whatever. There's plainly a lot of people who feel strongly about wizards as a class.

Druids, though? Nobody. I mean, yeah, there's people willing to discuss it in this thread, but only because I specifically brought it up -- Wizards come up much more often on their own.

Saph
2009-01-30, 08:44 AM
Druids, though? Nobody. I mean, yeah, there's people willing to discuss it in this thread, but only because I specifically brought it up -- Wizards come up much more often on their own.

I think it's because wizards have a much more variable power level than Druids.

A wizard's effectiveness depends on:

1) Level
2) Source material
3) What the DM lets you get away with
4) Player skill (this is the biggest one)

A wizard played well is arguably the most powerful class in the game; a wizard played badly is close to the worst class in the game. I've seen both happen, sometimes even in the same party!

So some people say that Wizards are awesome, and they're right. Other people say that Wizards suck and they're also right. So you have some players who've seen Wizards be the unchallenged best class in the party, and others who've seen them be the unchallenged worst.

Hence, arguments.

But with Druids there just isn't much reason to argue. The four things I listed as to how effective a wizard is? Applied to a Druid, the responses are:

1) Level: don't care
2) Source material: don't care
3) What the DM allows: don't care
4) Player skill: okay, do care, but when you're a giant spellcasting bear with a pet dog that can eat velociraptors, you really have to work to mess it up.

Hence less arguments. Make sense?

- Saph

Telonius
2009-01-30, 09:53 AM
The druid, on the other hand, is someone most casual/new players don't look to closely at. They look, they see "nature guy. Huh. Hippie. Weird." And they pass it on. Maybe after a while, they go "huh, divine casting hippie. Tom Bombadil? Still weird, but he had some oomph to him." Eventually they try him, or see someone try him, and notice that he's overpowered the whole way through, essentially no matter what you do with him. Playing straight Druid 20, taking completely random feats, only having the stats to cast his spells (even only in human form), he could threaten a normal-sized party on his own.

I don't think it's just that. A beginning player looks at a Druid and something like this might also cross his mind:

"Hm. Has a dog. Okay, another character sheet to fill out. Oh, and summons other critters to fight for him a lot of the time? Uh-oh, five or six other character sheets to keep track of. And then he changes into something else that changes his stats too? Screw that! I'm playing a Cleric."

horseboy
2009-01-31, 07:53 AM
Druids have some very simple fixes that null their power. Alot of groups, I would assume, don't have such a problem with Druids because obviously, Natural Spell is cheese of the stinkiest variety. I assume most table ban it or change it. Most games don't play with the most broken wildshape forms either, though Grizzly is pretty badass, alot of that goes away when you take away Natural Spell.

DM: "Yeah, they remade that old module X1. I'm running it this weekend."
Me: "I'll make a druid." Oh look, there's a flesh raker attacking the party. :smallbiggrin:

I disagree. In all honesty, fully half of the druids I've seen played were Elves - and Elven Druids just don't have the Con to front-line. None of the druids knew of or used Wildling Clasps, so their AC in Wildshape was pathetic, They didn't see the "wild" ability for armour in core? Sure it's a trap, but for core only games it's not so bad.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-31, 12:52 PM
Alot of groups, I would assume, don't have such a problem with Druids because obviously, Natural Spell is cheese of the stinkiest variety. I assume most table ban it or change it. Nope. Banning Natural Spell for Druids is pretty much the same as banning all metamagic for Wizards. It's extremely powerful, but it's a core part of the class design.

Living Greyhawk bans Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, and Permanency outright, plus most core magic items, but doesn't restrict Natural Spell.

I wouldn't assume that Natural Spell is banned or altered at all; I've never played in a game where it wasn't allowed as per the core rules.

Zeful
2009-01-31, 01:56 PM
Nope. Banning Natural Spell for Druids is pretty much the same as banning all metamagic for Wizards. It's extremely powerful, but it's a core part of the class design.

No it's not, it was a tacked on change during the 3.0 to 3.5 crossover. It would be more accurate to say that banning natural spell is more like banning Many Shot.

woodenbandman
2009-01-31, 02:28 PM
I once saw a druid with a wolf companion at level 1. The druid character was killed twice, but the wolf stayed on, kicking more ass than anyone. Anyone.

That's why druids are so powerful. Nothing that they have as a class feature sucks. Some of it may be ignored at some times, but Animal Companion, Wildshape, and Spells: They have all of them.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-01-31, 02:54 PM
My first character ever was a druid. He was in no way optimized, but destroyed things better than the barbarian who was in the Macro sizes.

Jerthanis
2009-01-31, 02:57 PM
I don't really see Druid automatic OP arguments anywhere near the same extent as Cleric automatic OP arguments on personal experience, but I've only seen them levels 1-8, so maybe like wizards, they can theoretically outperform from the beginning, but really only shove it in your face much later.

I've had two major firsthand experiences with Druids. One was a level 1-5 game where I played the Druid and took a horse as my animal companion on account of having seen the movie Hidalgo recently at the time. Terrible, TERRIBLE class at level 1 with a noncombat companion. It's playing "Entangle" the class.

The other was in a game where there was a Druid focused on making the most out of his spellcasting, supplementing it by turning into flying animals and a Warmage. Now, I know Warmage gets poo pooed, but 90% of Druids' spells are damaging. Not a lot of win buttons. So the Druid would cast, I dunno, Ice Lance, and throw out 6d6 damage against one guy with a ranged attack and the Warmage would then throw 8d6 damage in an area, with a higher DC. It made sense when the Druid could fly and the Warmage couldn't... but then the Warmage got boots of flying.

So I get the idea that Druids are OP in theory, and in practice if you go for the things they are specifically made of buttkicking at. If you don't specifically optimize TO beat everyone's face in, by poring over animals you can summon and turn into to find the most statistically strong of them all, and by avoiding focusing too much on an area they aren't specifically good at... Druid won't shine over everyone else to a recognizable degree.

This is in stark contrast to my experience with Clerics, who have been slapped together at level 6 by unoptimizing players with only a modicum of a grasp of the rules, and they easily curbstomp the fighter.

Bayar
2009-01-31, 03:12 PM
In my gaming group, nobody knows the TRUE deifinition of OP. They think that if a cleric has 5 domains, he is UBER, they call paladin/bard multiclass overpowered, they think wizards suck and they always scream at my druid for healing in combat when the rogue and ranger both took TWF so they can deal more damage.

And the DM doesnt give a **** about optimising or anything. He forced me specifically (because I explained to him who was Pun Pun) to play CORE ONLY. All his mobs and bosses just stand around in one place and attack with their swords. And Small balor at level 2...yeah :yuk:

Anyway, what I did was take a druid and just grab Augment Summoning, blast spells/BC and try to screw the other 2 noobs over. He didnt like it and started giving HP drain, WIS drain and other crap like that to my druid.

Oh, did I mention that at level 4, the total quantity of gold that we got was...40. AFTER killing a ****load of imps, a handfull of Small Balors, a pack of Drow and some Effreti :smallfurious:


But yeah, blasting things while the summons and animal companion flank the enemy so that the rogue can Sneak Attack and throw down a flaming sphere in the middle, TOTALLY WORTH IT !!!

TempusCCK
2009-01-31, 03:15 PM
Nope. Banning Natural Spell for Druids is pretty much the same as banning all metamagic for Wizards. It's extremely powerful, but it's a core part of the class design.

Living Greyhawk bans Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, and Permanency outright, plus most core magic items, but doesn't restrict Natural Spell.

I wouldn't assume that Natural Spell is banned or altered at all; I've never played in a game where it wasn't allowed as per the core rules.

I disagree with this on a fundamental level, Natural Spell was a feat that was added without full consideration of the consequences. Any DM that has played with a Druidzilla and wants to prevent it from happening again is going to remove it. Either you are a full caster, or a great fighter, you can be both in the same encounter, but not at the same time. Removing it is just common sense.

hamishspence
2009-01-31, 03:26 PM
I think reason clerics overshadow druids is- most of the ways of curing long term problems like level drain, stat drain, death, etc, are restricted to the cleric.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-31, 03:37 PM
All of their "problems" are easy to fix. You have to know, and I mean -know- an animal to shapeshift into it. Not just see it. Use those Knowledge (Nature) ranks.

Most DM's, and i've said it in other OP threads, don't understand the meaning of "NO".

Other then that, its all well and good to sit around and talk about something being powerful, but bring it into pratical application in a real game and a good 70% of the "Broken" stuff falls apart because of a wide variety of issues.

ericgrau
2009-01-31, 03:38 PM
Huh. What about after natural spell is gone? I was in a group that disallowed natural spell and they all thought the druid player was pretty weak. The DM said that druids just don't work well outside of a natural setting. In the dungeon he went into bear form and did mediocre damage while getting hurt pretty fast. Both the martial damage dealer and DD wizard outshined him by a wide margin, and even the less prominent party members combat-wise were at least as good. Is that play-style or what is it?

Curmudgeon
2009-01-31, 04:21 PM
Natural Spell ... is ... a core part of the class design.

No it's not, it was a tacked on change during the 3.0 to 3.5 crossover. I'm not buying that argument. That would mean that Innuendo as a separate skill and Ambidexterity as a TWF prerequisite were good and necessary parts of the core rules, and limiting Alter Self to the same type of creature was also a hasty "tacked on change during the 3.0 to 3.5 crossover." In essence, your line of reasoning makes anything that isn't the same as in 3.0 D&D suspect; it's so broad in scope as to not be worth responding to.

Natural Spell was a feat that was added without full consideration of the consequences. Now this is a more cogent expression; a similar viewpoint, but much more on-topic.

I disagree, though. Natural Spell (available at 6th level) doesn't make the Druid any more powerful than a Wizard with Polymorph (7th level) or a Cleric with the War domain and Divine Power (also 7th level). They get comparable power 1 level earlier, but that's about it. The combination of wild shape plus magic items was more of a concern, and errata fixed that by making all such magic items meld into the new form and become inactive.

I'd pick "standing up from prone provokes AoOs" as a change that was made without full consideration of the consequences, well ahead of Natural Spell.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-31, 04:27 PM
Wildshape and Spellcasting are both part of the same class, completely making one impossible while doing the other makes for a disjointed character. While I agree that Natural Spell is quite powerful, removing it means "doing one or other" for the druid, which isn't particularly necessary, limiting the amount of spells you can cast while wildshaped does however make sense, it would help balance, but not make the class features become so schizophrenic. Saying that while wildshaped you can cast your level times a coefficient dependent on your level number of spell levels per day.

Fiery Diamond
2009-01-31, 04:56 PM
Granted, I've only played with players who were druids at < level 9, but when non-optimizing players play a druid, outshine doesn't necessarily happen. A lot is dependent on how the player intends to play it. For example, my mom (yes, my 50 year old mom plays D&D...isn't it great?) plays supporting characters. You can play almost any class as a supporting character, and they won't outshine anyone. Backup fighter, backup damage-dealer (spells), healer, buffer, scout. Druids are good for support characters if you decide to play them that way - it's not hard to not make them outshine others.

Eldariel
2009-01-31, 05:37 PM
Removing Natural Spell means the Druid mostly buffs his animal companion and only uses Wildshape when he has to and after extensive prebuffing (or for scouting or so); it'll definitely limit the amount of Permanent Wildshape-tanking a Druid can do. That said, the animal companion would still kick a Fighter's ass and the Druid is still a full caster, albeit those changes make him one that plays by the same rules as the others. Of course, if Polymorph is allowed, the change is moot. But I haven't actually heard of a game allowing Polymorph for a long time, so I'm going to assume it doesn't exist.

sonofzeal
2009-01-31, 07:12 PM
They didn't see the "wild" ability for armour in core? Sure it's a trap, but for core only games it's not so bad.
It's also pretty darn expensive at a +3 mod, and doesn't really give you much for the price. Wild Hide slows you down and gives you +4 AC for 16,000; Wild Leather doesn't slow you down and only gives +3 for the same price. And both of them ruin your ability to pass as an animal. Either way, it performs categorically worse than Bracers of Armour would for a Wizard, either by slowing you down or by dropping the AC gained.


I once saw a druid with a wolf companion at level 1. The druid character was killed twice, but the wolf stayed on, kicking more ass than anyone. Anyone.

That's why druids are so powerful. Nothing that they have as a class feature sucks. Some of it may be ignored at some times, but Animal Companion, Wildshape, and Spells: They have all of them.
Wolf/dog companions kick butt at level 1. I have no objections to that being considered overpowered. The only consolation is that, by level 10, they're dropping in power even faster than the fighter is. Fleshrakers aside, most aren't that useful and progress pretty slowly.

At level one, you can easily have a CR 1 companion - arguably more powerful than the party fighter. At level 20, they're all CR 8 or 9, and even a non-twinked fighter should still be able to manage them pretty easily.

I do agree though, Druids are nothing if not consistently playable. A bad fighter could be useless 99% of the time, but a bad Druid can still engage and contribute to whatever's going on. They don't zoom into the stratosphere without significant effort though.

Eldariel
2009-01-31, 07:24 PM
At level one, you can easily have a CR 1 companion - arguably more powerful than the party fighter. At level 20, they're all CR 8 or 9, and even a non-twinked fighter should still be able to manage them pretty easily.

That's not precisely true; level 20 animal companion may be CRd for 9 (CR 8 + 2 bonus HD), but that's a core creature of such case. Adding 20-30 points to its AC & miss chance from equipment, giving it +5 to all attacks and damage from magic, being able to teach/reform it better feats, giving it flight (via. Air Walk or similar - this is the big one), multiplying its saves, increasing its stats, enabling it to see invisibles and so on pretty much removes all the weaknesses the core creature of such type has - it'll have 18-20 HD, which makes it equal to a Fighter in that regard. Much of the big changes actually come from magic, so even the equipment costs are very modest (as long as you don't go around giving it inherent bonuses).

Bosh
2009-01-31, 07:27 PM
Anyone can break a Druid without even trying, without even knowing what they're doing. When someone who doesn't try or know what they're doing builds a Wizard, it ends up being... an Evoker. In a group that doesn't powergame, Druids are still broken but Wizards think their most powerful spell is Fireball. They don't think Wizards are all that great because they've never seen it for themselves.

This, just this.

Oslecamo
2009-01-31, 07:40 PM
There are several reasons, wich I'm gonna show here:

1-Druid is much easier to "fix"

You can cut the wizard's limbs and he can still gets some cheesy trick to kill everybody with eye lasers of doom.

You cut the druid limbs and he's forced to play fair.

Like already said here, the druid's strenghts are that much easier to cut. Ban just natural spell(wich was clearly a typo in 3.5 PHB), ban a couple of spells, take away the animal companion bonuses and the druid's power level drops like a brick, whereas the wizard has more dirty tricks than hit points.

2-Low low low customization

You can build a thousand diferent and interesting wizard/fighters/clerics. You can only play one interesting druid. You're always take the same feats, prepared spells, fleshraker companion and wildshapes, because everything else you have is much weaker. It may be effective, but it gets repetitive after a while.

Mr.Wizard over there however can afford to kill someone in new and creative ways everyday, wich is that much more interesting, while the fighter has just finished his crazy feat chain that allows him to do something really bizzarre.

3-Dungeons

Being or controling bears is that much less atractive when you have to fit in 5 feet corridors, and then there's not plants to entangle.


4-Low low coolness factor

You're naked, you're not shiny, you can't fight with a pointy stick for the sake of your life and you can't even talk most of the time. You have to hide behind an animal half the time and the other half you're an animal yourself, leading to all kind of unpleasant jokes from your party.

How are you suposed to drink booze and get girls/guys this way? How can you make those cool finishing poses and speeches? How will people recognize you in the street so they bow to your power?

Aquillion
2009-01-31, 08:29 PM
That's why druids are so powerful. Nothing that they have as a class feature sucks.Resist Nature’s Lure is not that awesome unless you're playing a campaign against the Fey. And A Thousand Faces lets you mimic an effect that can be easily copied with a cheap item, wow. They also get immunity to poison way too late for it to be any use. :smalltongue:


How are you suposed to drink booze and get girls/guys this way? How can you make those cool finishing poses and speeches? How will people recognize you in the street so they bow to your power?...how many people walking down the street with a fleshraker are there?

Eldariel
2009-01-31, 08:38 PM
For teh lulz, I decided to see what simple optimization of a level 20 AC within Core+Complete+Compendium does:

Dire Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direTiger.htm) "Tooth'n'Nail"
Its Master:
Druid 19-20 with Natural Bond & enough Handle Animal to push this thing around as he sees fit. Maybe something that helps making items, no relevance to this case.

Equipment:
+1 Mithril Breastplate Barding of Nimbleness
+1 Animated Mithril Heavy Steel Shield
+6 Str, Dex, Con items - about 7th of a Druid's WPL on these levels, although cutting these costs to one-third by dropping each bonus to +4 or doing it through spells wouldn't really hurt all that much; also, if the items are crafted, it of course halves their impact, and the Druid is perfectly capable of doing that, or just picking Mercantile Background.

Spell effects:
Barkskin (Extended)
2xMagic Vestment (from Cleric; cut 8 from AC otherwise, or pay some money)
Superior Resistance
3xGreater Magic Fang on every natural weapon separately
Air Walk (Extended)
Can't remember anything simple that grants Deflection - someone care to remind me? Anyways, all of those pretty much are on all day, except Barkskin and Air Walk which need to be recast twice over an adventuring day.

Hit Dice: 20d8+140 (230)

Abilities
Str: 34 (28 + 6 enhancement)
Dex: 22 (16 + 6 enhancement)
Con: 24 (17 + 1 level + 6 enhancement)
Int: 2
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Feats
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Leap Attack
Mage Slayer
Blind-Fight
Pierce Magical Concealment

Initiative: +6
Armor Class: 46 (-1 size, +6 Dex, +13 natural, +11 armor, +7 shield), touch 15, flat-footed 42 - +5 Deflection would be rather trivial to add, as would be turning 5 points of armor and shield bonus into Touch AC to rip it to ~30.
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+33
Full Attack: 2 claws +31 melee (1d6+17) and bite +26 melee (1d8+11), 2 +30 rakes (1d6+17) on charge - +30 damage to all on a charge
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +24, Will +20 (+4 Devotion)

Skills:
Jump: 8 ranks
Spellcraft: 2 ranks (crossclass)
Spot: 11 ranks (or whatever)

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) on air
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce,
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent


Then you can cast Animal Growth for reach, +8 Str, +4 Con, etc. Add Haste for small bonuses, extra movement and attack, and you're cool. The base attack values are a tad low though; may be worth it to give the thing some offensive equipment, such as Necklace of Natural Attacks or some luck/morale/competence bonuses or something of the sort. Helps if there's a Cleric in the party, of course.

horseboy
2009-01-31, 09:08 PM
Like already said here, the druid's strengths are that much easier to cut. Ban just natural spell(which was clearly a typo in 3.5 PHB),lol
ban a couple of spells, take away the animal companion bonuses and the druid's power level drops like a brick, whereas the wizard has more dirty tricks than hit points.And he's still got a Ceratopsidae (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#triceratops). Who doesn't want a ceratopsidae? Especially if you go splat book diving and somehow find a way to give it flame breath. Then you name it Slag...and well, it's pretty obvious where I'm going here.


2-Low low low customization

You can build a thousand diferent and interesting wizard/fighters/clerics. You can only play one interesting druid. You're always take the same feats, prepared spells, fleshraker companion and wildshapes, because everything else you have is much weaker. It may be effective, but it gets repetitive after a while. Clearly you're not trying hard enough to do something different. You've got a whole lot of wiggle room being Tier 1.

while the fighter has just finished his crazy feat chain that allows him to do something really bizarre.I was unaware that "Power Attack for full" constituted "really bizarre".


3-Dungeons

Being or controlling bears is that much less attractive when you have to fit in 5 feet corridors, and then there's not plants to entangle.That's why the standard corridor is 10'.



4-Low low coolness factorAll of which are completely subjective.


How are you supposed to drink booze and get girls/guys this way? TJ

Starbuck_II
2009-01-31, 09:11 PM
and errata fixed that by making all such magic items meld into the new form and become inactive.



The erratas affects only magic itemd worn when changing form: if the Druid put it on while Wild Shaped He gets the benefit.
The best part about this ios this means buying 2 +2 Con amulets is well worth it.

One when human/race, you keep hps when changing due to errata.
Then put second one on: you now gain even more hps based on Con (since changing Con score not from changing form) is based on looking up tables.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-31, 10:30 PM
Wildshape and Spellcasting are both part of the same class, completely making one impossible while doing the other makes for a disjointed character. Thank you for expressing this point; I've had it in the back of my mind, but haven't actually put it into words.

Taking out Natural Spell is somewhat akin to preventing Rogues from using skills and sneak attack together. They're different class abilities, right? But the essence of the Rogue is that they have lots of skills and class abilities -- the most powerful of which is sneak attack -- and you create flexibility by combining these in different ways. A Rogue that can't Tumble to get into sneak attack position is schizophrenic, just as a Druid that can't cast spells or can't use trackless step while wild shaped is also disjointed. There aren't many class abilities for Wizards that aren't spells, and most of them are bonus metamagic feats, so I think removing Natural Spell from Druids is akin to removing all metamagic from Wizards.

Eeezee
2009-02-01, 01:36 AM
Despite their potential power, druids are totally lame. As a sorcerer I can cast a silent+still unseen servant and have it lift ladies' skirts, and if I get caught I can fill the place with Web and Dimension Door myself out of there. There are infinite roleplaying opportunities when you can turn invisible and teleport at will. Meeting with the lord? Silent + Stilled Charm Person oughta do the trick, assuming he's not also an archmage.

Whereas the druid can turn into a bear and probably be attacked by the town guard.

One of these things is more awesome, and it's not the druid.

Talic
2009-02-01, 02:21 AM
All of their "problems" are easy to fix. You have to know, and I mean -know- an animal to shapeshift into it. Not just see it. Use those Knowledge (Nature) ranks.


Great. Now I get to develop a druid that's fond of beastiality. After all, when the DM asks, "how do you know that animal"... and you reply, "carnally"...

What more can really be said?

Innis Cabal
2009-02-01, 02:25 AM
BoEF has nothing on your character I guess.

Talic
2009-02-01, 02:51 AM
If I remember correctly, it may have a couple useful feats, lol.


Despite their potential power, druids are totally lame. As a sorcerer I can cast a silent+still unseen servant and have it lift ladies' skirts, and if I get caught I can fill the place with Web and Dimension Door myself out of there. There are infinite roleplaying opportunities when you can turn invisible and teleport at will. Meeting with the lord? Silent + Stilled Charm Person oughta do the trick, assuming he's not also an archmage.

Whereas the druid can turn into a bear and probably be attacked by the town guard.

One of these things is more awesome, and it's not the druid.

I suppose the housecat perched in the rafters of the feast hall, mewling out a natural spell Faerie fire has no roleplay opportunities. If a superstitious realm uses animals for signs of the will of the deities (ancient Greek, Egyptian, Native American, Indian, etc etc, it's a very common practice), or use weather as omens of the anger of the gods (many religions represent this practice, if not most), then druids can use their weather inducing spells to prophecy ill tidings upon the land, or use a well-timed summoning to give good tidings upon a proposed venture.

And, if discovered? There's always entangle + high speed form, combined with the "untrackable" thing.

No, druids have roleplay opportunity. It just takes a mind not already closed to the possibility, in order to see it.

Quietus
2009-02-01, 03:33 AM
I've got a character I've been playing for a while in an ongoing name, an Elven druidess by the name of Zetris. When I joined the group, they were passing through a swamp, so I decided that for whatever reason (later retconned reasoning into this), she was living in a swamp, and had taken an affinity to snakes. Her animal companion? Orm, the medium-sized viper. He's optimized for poison (as much as you can, since by RAW he starts as a "normal member of his creature type"), which was fun for a bit.

So first level, there I am - my 10 con giving me reason to have a horse and a bow, with a snake draped around my neck, and my Improved Initiative and high dex giving me first action quite a bit. And, as has been said, I was basically playing Entangle : The Class. I tried some of the low level buffs; Shillelagh got me knocked unconscious, and Magic Stone was just plain terrible. Orm was nice to have around, but his 1d4-1 damage was.. not impressive. Most of his damage comes from that fort save, and lots of things have good fort saves.

I've mostly been playing support, and while I started out as rather aloof and uncaring, I'm becoming a more matronly figure - still treating the idiots in her party (two 8-int nymphomaniacs) like children, but she still runs mostly support, even now at level 6. She did use Call Lightning to good effect recently, but that was... well, I won't be preparing that spell all that often, except as a "Not a bad thing to trade out for summons".

Now, I agree that a druid is hard to make truly BAD decisions with - I can still contribute quite a bit, even with my feats being Improved Initiative, Track, and now Natural Spell. But the moment I go into melee combat, I'll get torn to shreds. My animal companion's major damage- his poison - is practically useless now, even with Ability Focus (DC 16 vs 1d6 con/1d6 con?). On the other hand, he's the highest-AC member of the party, at 21 (22 with Dodge). Yay for Natural Armor and Dex boosts.

Druids CAN be overpowered - depending on what they get access to. Oddly enough, the same apples to nearly every single other class in the game. It's just easier with a druid, because Wildshape means a player can turn into the animals that just beat the living hell out of the party.

horseboy
2009-02-01, 03:54 AM
Great. Now I get to develop a druid that's fond of beastiality.
Wouldn't that depend on which form the druid was in? :smallconfused:

Talic
2009-02-01, 04:32 AM
Wouldn't that depend on which form the druid was in? :smallconfused:

If he can't change into a form until he "KNOWS" it, I mean "REALLY KNOWS" it...

Then it would stand to reason that the first time I approach the tiger to show it that I love animals... I'm not a tiger.


Druids CAN be overpowered - depending on what they get access to. Oddly enough, the same apples to nearly every single other class in the game. It's just easier with a druid, because Wildshape means a player can turn into the animals that just beat the living hell out of the party.

You market your character as a support that is ok, and then state that druid isn't OP if things aren't allowed.

But make these alterations:

Raise your character's Con (Sacrifice dex and str first, and other stats second, keep will moderately high).
Exchange your viper for a wolf.
Exchange your feats for more effective PHB Feats.

Now, wolf = better HP and damage, as well as movement.
Raised con gives you more staying power (as HP don't change with wild shape).
Poof, suddenly you outfight a fighter, as, at low levels, you outnumber him, and at higher levels, you'll have strength and size on him, as well as outnumbering him.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-02-01, 05:16 AM
It's also pretty darn expensive at a +3 mod, and doesn't really give you much for the price. Wild Hide slows you down and gives you +4 AC for 16,000; Wild Leather doesn't slow you down and only gives +3 for the same price. And both of them ruin your ability to pass as an animal. Either way, it performs categorically worse than Bracers of Armour would for a Wizard, either by slowing you down or by dropping the AC gained.

Where did you get the idea wild armour slows you?
Let's look at the SRD:

Wild

The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

In other words, your not really wearing the armour, it is still "molten" into your animal form, you do however gain it's armour and enchantment bonuses to AC. And the SRD entry also specifies that it can not be seen so passing of as an animal can still be done.

Neithan
2009-02-01, 06:00 AM
Thank you for expressing this point; I've had it in the back of my mind, but haven't actually put it into words.

Taking out Natural Spell is somewhat akin to preventing Rogues from using skills and sneak attack together. They're different class abilities, right? But the essence of the Rogue is that they have lots of skills and class abilities -- the most powerful of which is sneak attack -- and you create flexibility by combining these in different ways. A Rogue that can't Tumble to get into sneak attack position is schizophrenic, just as a Druid that can't cast spells or can't use trackless step while wild shaped is also disjointed. There aren't many class abilities for Wizards that aren't spells, and most of them are bonus metamagic feats, so I think removing Natural Spell from Druids is akin to removing all metamagic from Wizards.
But for all of 2nd Ed. and 3.0 druids did fine without it.

Talic
2009-02-01, 07:24 AM
Agreed. No natural spell doesn't destroy a druid's ability to cast. It just means that at any one time, he can be in a "combat form" or a "casting form". NOTE: This is the way the Druid class, as written, functions.

Removing Metamagic from wizards DOES prevent them from using selected abilities and feats. There is no single feat that is universally taken by most competent wizards. Cindy builds eschew spell focus for metamagic, whereas Batman builds favor spell focus, and such. Cindy may use twin spell, and maximize, while batman favors extend spell and enlarge spell. Wizard has no parallel to natural spell.

In other words, removing natural spell means the Druid class functions as written.

Removing the ability to use metamagic for casters, or the ability to use skills with sneak attack for rogues forces the classes to behave in ways that they were not written. Thus, your analogy falls a bit flat.

You'd have had a much better argument with the Darkstalker feat and Rogues.

Thespianus
2009-02-01, 09:03 AM
For teh lulz, I decided to see what simple optimization of a level 20 AC within Core+Complete+Compendium does:

Dire Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direTiger.htm) "Tooth'n'Nail"
Too bad the opponents had a 4th level Wizard with a Ray of Stupidity prepared. ;)

EDIT: Sorry, it was a 3rd level Wizard. ;) My bad.

Eldariel
2009-02-01, 09:18 AM
Too bad the opponents had a 4th level Wizard with a Ray of Stupidity prepared. ;)

EDIT: Sorry, it was a 3rd level Wizard. ;) My bad.

Psh, ofc you buff it with Mind Blank, Spell Resistance, Death Ward, etc. I just included the buffs that directly affect stats. :P

Thespianus
2009-02-01, 09:31 AM
Psh, ofc you buff it with Mind Blank, Spell Resistance, Death Ward, etc. I just included the buffs that directly affect stats. :P

:smallwink:

As a Druid you don't get Spell Resistance, nor Mind Blank, right? So you'd have to carry around a pet 17th level Wizard as well ;)

Ray of Stupidity is goooood against animal companions. :smallamused:

Arakune
2009-02-01, 09:52 AM
All of their "problems" are easy to fix. You have to know, and I mean -know- an animal to shapeshift into it. Not just see it. Use those Knowledge (Nature) ranks.

Don't work. It's really easy to pump an skill check to the strathosphere.

TengYt
2009-02-01, 12:09 PM
Too bad the opponents had a 4th level Wizard with a Ray of Stupidity prepared. ;)

EDIT: Sorry, it was a 3rd level Wizard. ;) My bad.

Unless the Tiger has won Initiative and has proceeded to eat the Wizard.

Eldariel
2009-02-01, 12:17 PM
:smallwink:

As a Druid you don't get Spell Resistance, nor Mind Blank, right? So you'd have to carry around a pet 17th level Wizard as well ;)

Ray of Stupidity is goooood against animal companions. :smallamused:

Duhhuh. You could invest 36000gp into Headband of Intelligence +6 for it though :P Also, if you do bother to add Ghost Ward to both armors, getting its Touch AC to 30 means that...uhh, no (no, not even then). Besides, who adventures alone? And level 17 is just the level your Cohort would be...:P Oh, and a quickened Lesser Restoration fixes your AC if it gets stupedified. Of course, you could just Shapechange for spellcasting of different classes to cast all manners of buffs.

Quietus
2009-02-01, 06:46 PM
You market your character as a support that is ok, and then state that druid isn't OP if things aren't allowed.

But make these alterations:

Raise your character's Con (Sacrifice dex and str first, and other stats second, keep will moderately high).
Exchange your viper for a wolf.
Exchange your feats for more effective PHB Feats.

Now, wolf = better HP and damage, as well as movement.
Raised con gives you more staying power (as HP don't change with wild shape).
Poof, suddenly you outfight a fighter, as, at low levels, you outnumber him, and at higher levels, you'll have strength and size on him, as well as outnumbering him.

So if every druid builds to be overpowered, then every druid is overpowered. But if it's not built specifically to outfight the fighter, then ... it doesn't outfight the fighter.

Am I following this correctly?

Not every druid will put priority on con over dex. If I had, I'd have been totally useless as anything but an Entangle/Cure Light mule for a long time. Not every druid will pick up a wolf companion - Zetris, being an elf, had been in the swamps for quite a while. I don't see wolves taking to swamps too well. And really, what feats could I take that would make her into some kind of beastly attacking powerhouse? Improved Initiative is really not a bad choice, ever, in my opinion, and Track was useful. I could have picked up Extend Spell, for extended Produce Flames - oh wait, I dumped Dex. Now my ranged touch is teh suck. That's okay, I can do mele.. wait, dumped strength too. Well, at least I have hit points and a swamp-wolf...

aje8
2009-02-01, 11:21 PM
Ok, specific examples showing whether or not Druids are easier to optimize than wizards are anecdotal evidence and essentially get us no where in the overall question of whether or not Duids are strong when played competently.

The reason (IMHO) Druid is easy to play is that he has 3 poweful class abilties and if any one of the 3 are done well.... he's good. If 2 are done well.... he's great. And if all 3 are done well, he's the most powerful class until around level 13 (Where Wizard is stronger debateably)

Now, if as a noob, you pick a decent animal companion, decent spells, and decent wildshape forms, you will be strong. If any of your choices are good ones (not great, not optimized but good) you will be GREAT in an unoptimized party.

For example, let's say you have ok spells, ok wildshape forms and a Riding Dog animal companion. Your animal buddy outshines the fighter for a decent portion of the Fighter's career AND you can do everything else decently.

Because the druid has 3 possible things, the odds of any one being done well increase. Any if any is done well, the character will be insane.

As to why the Druid get's no flak from anybody, it's probably that the Wizard is a clas EVERYONE has played with. The Druid is one only some play with, it's not arch typical.

Quietus
2009-02-01, 11:36 PM
::Edit:: Sorry, firefox error, double post.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-02, 12:19 AM
So if every druid builds to be overpowered, then every druid is overpowered. But if it's not built specifically to outfight the fighter, then ... it doesn't outfight the fighter.

Am I following this correctly?It's not building to be OP, it's building for power at all, which is the absolute minimum metric in a discussion such as this. If you want to base class power comparisons on decisions made based on flavor(which are essentially randomly distributed on the power scale) then you end up comparing a Druid that doesn't Wildshape and has a horse companion to a half-elf Fighter that only uses an unenchanted greatclub and took Toughness 2 times.

There are 2 animal companions that are, without a doubt, the most powerful at first level. Those 2 companions are clear pick for anyone with even a cursory examination of the statblocks. Someone can make a concious decision not to use one of the 2 most powerful ACs, but decisions like that, which rely on personal choice and have no basis in skill or the rules are meaningless here. When I say "A n00b can take a Druid, with no prior experience, and make something better than almost anyone else in the party", I mean a n00b that is trying to build a competent character and not one that is ignoring all power as a basis for decisions.

Tomada
2009-02-02, 01:47 AM
It's also pretty darn expensive at a +3 mod, and doesn't really give you much for the price. Wild Hide slows you down and gives you +4 AC for 16,000; Wild Leather doesn't slow you down and only gives +3 for the same price. And both of them ruin your ability to pass as an animal. Either way, it performs categorically worse than Bracers of Armour would for a Wizard, either by slowing you down or by dropping the AC gained.


Wolf/dog companions kick butt at level 1. I have no objections to that being considered overpowered. The only consolation is that, by level 10, they're dropping in power even faster than the fighter is. Fleshrakers aside, most aren't that useful and progress pretty slowly.

At level one, you can easily have a CR 1 companion - arguably more powerful than the party fighter. At level 20, they're all CR 8 or 9, and even a non-twinked fighter should still be able to manage them pretty easily.

I do agree though, Druids are nothing if not consistently playable. A bad fighter could be useless 99% of the time, but a bad Druid can still engage and contribute to whatever's going on. They don't zoom into the stratosphere without significant effort though.

Yeah, and the reason you're comparing a SINGLE ability of the druid to an entire class is?

Talic
2009-02-02, 03:17 AM
So if every druid builds to be overpowered, then every druid is overpowered. But if it's not built specifically to outfight the fighter, then ... it doesn't outfight the fighter.

Am I following this correctly? No.
A correct following would be: An unoptimized druid will not outfight an optimized fighter.
An optimized druid will outfight any fighter, optimized or no. But if we're referring to fighters doing a stat array that rewards their class abilities, then we must do the same for druids.

1) Wild shape replaces physical stats. Str and Dex don't matter while shifted.
2) HP don't change. So con still matters.
3) Druids also need wisdom for casting.

So, a fighting druid can dump that str and dex that a fighter wants. They both need con, as any front line character would need. And while fighters don't need wisdom, druids do, so that balances out.


Not every druid will put priority on con over dex. If I had, I'd have been totally useless as anything but an Entangle/Cure Light mule for a long time. Ok, so a druid being better at spellcasting at low levels, and using their animal companion as a guardian... Is a less viable choice? Less worthy?

You wouldn't be an entangle/CLW mule unless you allowed yourself to be limited to that role. Summoning spells, Animal companion, flanking, there are other options. If you want to spam one spell, that's your choice. But don't assume you're forced to do that by the woeful constraints of the build.


Not every druid will pick up a wolf companion - Zetris, being an elf, had been in the swamps for quite a while. I don't see wolves taking to swamps too well. And really, what feats could I take that would make her into some kind of beastly attacking powerhouse? Improved Initiative is really not a bad choice, ever, in my opinion, and Track was useful. I could have picked up Extend Spell, for extended Produce Flames - oh wait, I dumped Dex. Now my ranged touch is teh suck. That's okay, I can do mele.. wait, dumped strength too. Well, at least I have hit points and a swamp-wolf...
There are swamp based creatures that aren't total gimps in combat. You could just as easily been a druid passing through a swamp with a wolf companion, rather than forcing yourself into the "the party sees me first in a swamp, so that is the place where I have been for the last 10 years" schtick. There are several other choices.

No, what you did was choose the single most sub-optimal (Read: Bad) choice for animal companion in the PHB, and defend it with, "oh woe is me, this is all that my starting area allows me to have logically"... When in reality, a bit of creativity when developing a background can explain many many things. In this case, assuming that a low level character couldn't survive indefinately in the wild (correct), and was nomadic or in transit (not far fetched). Another option includes that the swamp goes to forest not too far away, and you're foraging for herbs, etc.

See? You typecast yourself into the most suboptimal choices a druid can make... And you're still ok as a character. However, your choices are kinda akin to building a fighter who meets the party at a library... So he's a bookworm that spent all his skill points in knowledges, and dumps Con for Int, because that's where he's been, and all that silly endurance has no sense in a library.

Bottom line: Any character that expects to go to melee needs to have a positive Con modifier. Ideally +2 or higher. There are a lot of ways to increase damage or bonuses to hit. There aren't so many to increase maximum life.

For example: Dropping Strength from a 16 to a 14 (in point buy) allows for Con to be raised from 10 to 14. that's +2 HP per HD. the -1 to hit? Masterwork weapon. Put it at a 13? You still qualify for power attack.

As far as Imp initiative goes? Rarely useful unless you have a powerful ability that needs to go first to be effective. Such as Entangle, or Sneak Attack, etc. Not so much after that round 1.

TempusCCK
2009-02-02, 03:31 AM
Talic expressed my opinion very well, though my analogy might be something more akin to a Paladin's Mount is causing a schism in his class abilities because he can't easily use Lay on Hands while he's mounted.

The point is, at the level of most play, Druids have so many wildshapes a day that they can easily switch back and forth between being a full caster or being a fighter as the situation demands it. The flavor is what keeps the whole thing together, you're either a nature priest, or a nature priest shapeshifted into an animal to kick a bunch of butt.

The idea, the fluff, behind the powers keeps the cohesion, not all class skills need to necessarily synergize mechanically, both fit the flavor. Not to mention, the Druid now can still be a dependent, good for every situation character, but not good at every situation at the same time, decreasing the power level quite a bit.

Thespianus
2009-02-28, 04:34 AM
Unless the Tiger has won Initiative and has proceeded to eat the Wizard.
True. Stoopid tigers ;)

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-28, 05:33 AM
It all depends on the player. People call Warlocks slightly underpowered but a Hellfire Warlock can be scary. I have seen Druids that are downright terrible; case in point:

This Druid had no Natural Spell. This Druid did not use an Animal Companion. This Druid RARELY casts any spells aside from buffs (Barkskin, Bull's Strength). The most intimidating form this Druid ever Wildshaped into was perhaps an Eagle. This Druid was an Archer and did less damage in a full round than the S&B Fighter did in a single hit.

Optimization is based on your perspective; our current Wizard feels optimized with his 10d6 DC Fireballs at level 5 while our Cleric will feel optimized in a few levels when he has 6 Shadows under his control. Is a Frenzied Berserker optimized if he can one shot the Tarrasque but he is instantly screwed by a Grease spell? :smallconfused:

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-28, 09:08 AM
No.
An optimized druid will outfight any fighter, optimized or no. But if we're referring to fighters doing a stat array that rewards their class abilities, then we must do the same for druids.

1) Wild shape replaces physical stats. Str and Dex don't matter while shifted.
2) HP don't change. So con still matters.
3) Druids also need wisdom for casting.

So, a fighting druid can dump that str and dex that a fighter wants. They both need con, as any front line character would need. And while fighters don't need wisdom, druids do, so that balances out.


I wonder...why does a fighter "want" STR and DEX? Couldn't he just use the same tactics as a druid and morph into a creature that provides him with these high stats? He can do that for 1,200 gp at level 4 (1/4 of his wbl) and get polymorph any object cast on him. War troll, or whatever.
2 levels earlier than the druid. And with way more melee feats and better BAB.

But usually, an enlarge effect is enough for fighters to out-fight druids using wildshape.
Possibly already available from levels 1-2.

As for the OP: I think aje8 put it nicely. The druid is fairly easy to play with an even spread of powers and less need for optimisation. Plus the druid has great fluff. So there are hardly any arguments that druids are a useless class...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-28, 09:17 AM
See? You typecast yourself into the most suboptimal choices a druid can make... And you're still ok as a character. However, your choices are kinda akin to building a fighter who meets the party at a library... So he's a bookworm that spent all his skill points in knowledges, and dumps Con for Int, because that's where he's been, and all that silly endurance has no sense in a library.


Coming to think of it, such a fluff would fit my idea above of a fighter who befriended a powerful mage in the library to shape him into a wartroll. And who basically learned all his combat tactics (=feats) from books.

So, with a human level 4 fighter, this could be through a 28pt-buy:
STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 14, CHR 14
So, something of a bookworm who focuses on war tactics and turns into a powerful creature if need be.
Feats:combat expertise, improved trip, improved disarm, iron will, improved initiative. Later leadership maybe. Outside core, maybe some diamond mind martial maneuvers or white raven tactics, tactical feats and/or able learner to make good use of his 6 skill pts/level.

There's nothing wrong with building a fighter who focuses on INT.

- Giacomo

Armads
2009-02-28, 09:43 AM
Coming to think of it, such a fluff would fit my idea above of a fighter who befriended a powerful mage in the library to shape him into a wartroll. And who basically learned all his combat tactics (=feats) from books.

So, with a human level 4 fighter, this could be through a 28pt-buy:
STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 14, CHR 14
So, something of a bookworm who focuses on war tactics and turns into a powerful creature if need be.
Feats:combat expertise, improved trip, improved disarm, iron will, improved initiative. Later leadership maybe. Outside core, maybe some diamond mind martial maneuvers or white raven tactics, tactical feats and/or able learner to make good use of his 6 skill pts/level.

There's nothing wrong with building a fighter who focuses on INT.

- Giacomo

Except that you rely on Polymorph Any Object, Leadership, finding a 15th level wizard at ECL 4 who is willing to cast polymorph on you, being absolutely useless before level 4, being COMPLETELY useless after a dispel.

Oh, and with PAO, you lose the use of your Combat Expertise tree, due to losing all that Int. Which is... 3 feats, exactly the amount of feats you have over a druid. And the druid can still cast his spells if he gets himself PAOed into a wartroll.

Also, tactical feats and maneuvers don't really require you to have a wide range of skill checks. Simply maxing Jump/Concentration will probably be enough for the whole ToB. So 6 skill points/level are probably overkill.

Able learner doesn't work if you're PAO'ed into a wartroll, but it's not very important anyway.

EDIT: If you really want to play an "int fighter" so much, why not just be a warblade? It does the same thing essentially, and fluff is changable anyway.

Neithan
2009-02-28, 09:50 AM
Because some people don't want a fighter to have his sword burst into flames spontaneously.

Armads
2009-02-28, 09:56 AM
Warblades don't make their swords burst into fire spontaneously. That's the realm of the swordsage.

And flaming swords are staples of dnd.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-28, 10:20 AM
Except that you rely on Polymorph Any Object,

Yes. Your point? No difference to a druid focusing his combat on an ability he does not get until level 6, and which only yields powerful melee scores at level 8.

Leadership,

No. It's just one feat out of many and all other class abilities. Plus, at 4th level the build does not even have it.

finding a 15th level wizard at ECL 4 who is willing to cast polymorph on you,

the fluff was provided. You can't play ANY character, if the DM does not provide the setting for it ("OK, you all start in this great metropolis where you grew up and uh, sorry Bob, you can't play a druid...").

being absolutely useless before level 4,

I dunno. Good hit points. 6 skill pts/level, hard to hit (full plate, tower shield and expertise get him quite far here), decent damage with greatsword, +9 to trip when enlarged...

being COMPLETELY useless after a dispel.

See above. Plus, at 4th level, dispels do not fly around that often. Plus, you'd have to see the fighter to do a targeted dispel. Possible, but not always happening. At higher levels, though....ring of blinking could help a lot, as could mirror image effects.

Oh, and with PAO, you lose the use of your Combat Expertise tree, due to losing all that Int. Which is... 3 feats, exactly the amount of feats you have over a druid.

Oh, my bad - did not look up the wartroll's INT stat. That does not negate my argument, though, - there are plenty of powerful forms out there that will not make him lose his INT feats. And having spent so much time in the library chances are he knows which form would be best.:smallsmile:

And the druid can still cast his spells if he gets himself PAOed into a wartroll.

Yep. But then he cannot full attack at the same time (OK, there are some quickened spells possible, but still). But the subject of discussion will he out-fight the fighter at level 6 (or 4, with PaO)? And here, the fighter has the feat advantage.
Note also that I did not say an INT-based fighter will out-melee a melee-focused druid. Only that an INT-based fighter is a viable choice and not necessarily sub-optimal.

Also, tactical feats and maneuvers don't really require you to have a wide range of skill checks. Simply maxing Jump/Concentration will probably be enough for the whole ToB. So 6 skill points/level are probably overkill.
Probably.

Yet...ride is a useful skill (use leadership to get a really nice mount and take the mounted combat feats...). The above fighter example could also use intimidate nicely and get a huge form with PaO. Some spot/listen cross class do not hurt, either.

Able learner doesn't work if you're PAO'ed into a wartroll, but it's not very important anyway.

Yep, it does not work, so you could devote that feat to skills that you use when not in the non-human form. From levels 7 or so, polymorph can replace the PaO buff nicely (making also the wartroll viable again for the INT-feats).

EDIT: If you really want to play an "int fighter" so much, why not just be a warblade? It does the same thing essentially, and fluff is changable anyway.

I could...depends on what the DM allows (ToB being optional rules and all that).

- Giacomo

Starbuck_II
2009-02-28, 11:01 AM
Because some people don't want a fighter to have his sword burst into flames spontaneously.

Then why do Flaming and Flaming burst exist?

Only warriors (as one who fights not the Warrior class) like the fighter use weapons.

Yukitsu
2009-02-28, 12:22 PM
stuff

Check out the DMG guidelines on population demographics. Level 15 casters are rare, making it highly unlikely that you would be able to find that service unless the DM was being very, very nice to you. As in, allows everyone else candles of invocation to bind efreeti nice.

Vonriel
2009-02-28, 01:12 PM
To answer the original question, there's a very, very simple reason there are no druid arguments: You're not just poking the bear with the sharp teeth, you're poking the bear with the sharp teeth in front of you while the "thunder lizard" with even sharper teeth sneaks up behind you. Something of a bad idea, if you ask me. :smallwink:

Something that bothers me about natural spell: Why is it a blanket feat instead of a metamagic feat? How many other feats in the entire series of splatbooks give a blanket modifier such as that to every single spell you cast? It makes much more sense to make it metamagic, with maybe a +1 or possibly +2 (or, who knows, a variable amount depending on the level of the spell) modifier to spell level, and in my (useless, granted) opinion is how the feat should have been done in the first place.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-28, 01:20 PM
To answer the original question, there's a very, very simple reason there are no druid arguments: You're not just poking the bear with the sharp teeth, you're poking the bear with the sharp teeth in front of you while the "thunder lizard" with even sharper teeth sneaks up behind you. Something of a bad idea, if you ask me. :smallwink:

Something that bothers me about natural spell: Why is it a blanket feat instead of a metamagic feat? How many other feats in the entire series of splatbooks give a blanket modifier such as that to every single spell you cast? It makes much more sense to make it metamagic, with maybe a +1 or possibly +2 (or, who knows, a variable amount depending on the level of the spell) modifier to spell level, and in my (useless, granted) opinion is how the feat should have been done in the first place.

Shadow cast and Still Mystery are non-metamagic (because they don't have limits on useage like Suddens or spell slot increase).

Vonriel
2009-02-28, 01:37 PM
Shadow cast and Still Mystery are non-metamagic (because they don't have limits on useage like Suddens or spell slot increase).

Yeah, I see that, though without the Tome of Magic handy I can't really comment on the relative power of the feats, even though that is a separate matter from my original challenge.

Some more thoughts, unrelated to the above quote: Essentially, natural spell is applying limited versions of the still and silent metamagic feats along with the eschew materials feat to every spell you cast in wildshape. Yes, I know, it's not -exactly- the same, because you still can't cast the spell if you're grappled, but that's where the limited version comes in, and if you don't have a component pouch to begin with, you can't use the components melded into the shape. It's a weird thing to look at, mechanically, because it's very similar to other metamagics in some respects, but slightly different in others... hmm, more thought must be devoted to this...

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-28, 01:44 PM
Personally, a Natural spell Fix I've heard/support is that its a +1 metamagic: Remember that you don't stop speaking or making gestures, you just substitute what the form is naturally capable of for what you would normally do.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-28, 01:51 PM
Check out the DMG guidelines on population demographics. Level 15 casters are rare, making it highly unlikely that you would be able to find that service unless the DM was being very, very nice to you. As in, allows everyone else candles of invocation to bind efreeti nice.

I did. Since the fluff example was a bookworm fighter in a library, it is not that unlikely that the setting is in a metropolis. DMG p. 139 outlines the very good chances of a 15th level wizard living in such a city. And this does not even count the possiblity of sorcerers or trickery domain clerics of the appropriate level.
Candles of invocation to bind efreeti? A small city suffices for having it available. Using it efficiently, though, at low levels is an entirely different matter - and likely the group pcs would prefer different items.

- Giacomo

Reinboom
2009-02-28, 02:30 PM
Reading through this thread, my mind diverted off the standard track here with the thought...
Am I the only person who thought Vadania (the Druid of the 3.5 PHB) to be pretty?
Not to mention, she has a gorgeous and cool wolf standing by her side.

Aside, my experiences with druids:
First play: Level 1. Realizing I had an expendable wall of a wolf companion was neat, seeing it in action was just silly good in comparison to every other team. The team I was in swept the 'cooking tournament' because of that.
The Cooking Tournament was a 2-shot level 1 game. The idea was that everyone was in a 'cooking tournament' given by a local king to become the lead chefs of the new castle. The requirements, however, were that all ingredients must be obtained in the beastly wilds around the castle starting from the beginning of the tournament.
It was arranged in 'Chef teams' of 2. Each team going a different direction.
Rogue/Ranger, Druid/Bard (my team, I was the druid), Fighter/Bard, and... I don't recall the last team were the competitors.


Second low level time seeing in play: Having a player decide to play it under me, going from levels 4-7 in a short campaign. This player was absolutely new to D&D.
At level 4, they were subpar in comparison to what I was expecting of the druid. Even in this, however, they were still not the least effective member of the party. They still outshined the Duskblade and Rogue. The Beguiler and Cleric however played significantly ahead of them.
At level 5, they surpassed the Cleric in effectiveness (the Beguiler.. was just very very well played, in all aspects). Noted, however, not until the later part of the level did they really grasp the game.
At level 6, the Cleric player requested I offer a bit of homebrew assistance to him, as well as the duskblade (the rogue dropped) in order to keep up with the Druid and the Beguiler.
Not much happened at level 7.

For high level, well, I used the Druid to force a GM to learn to restrict his party.
In an 8 person party, there were two notable characters that outshined the rest of the group. A Doppelganger Bard and a Fey'ri Sorcerer (my character) which later multiclassed incredibly. One of the other party members, a human with a homebrewed class modeled after the barbarian requested that the GM offer his class more abilities, as it was clear where the party attention ability wise was focused.
The GM instead came to me and request I rewrite my character completely since it was obviously due to my weird race (Fey'ri, which I must note, is highly nonoptimized for a spellcaster with its +2 LA, and nonfocused ability scores - I chose it because I thought it was cool.) and my excessive multiclassing, and that no combination of a standard race with a single base class and prestige class designed by wotc would be this much of an issue.
I accepted, made a level 14 (noting, ECL of the party to be 16, I requested to be 2 levels lower to make a point) Human Druid + Planar Shepherd to rub salt on it.. and two sessions later, the GM gave in and started working with the other members to adjust their classes. (as well as gave me back my original character).

Eldariel
2009-02-28, 02:49 PM
Reading through this thread, my mind diverted off the standard track here with the thought...
Am I the only person who thought Vadania (the Druid of the 3.5 PHB) to be pretty?
Not to mention, she has a gorgeous and cool wolf standing by her side.

I tend to agree. Although that red nose is kinda weird (notice how Lidda has one too...). But yea, she definitely kicks Mutant Frog's ass any day.

Also, I've always wanted to say this so I'll say it now:
These are not the Druids you're looking for.


Let that refer to the entire thread or something.

Advocate
2009-02-28, 03:57 PM
I disagree. In all honesty, fully half of the druids I've seen played were Elves...

Ok, stop right there. Just because a bunch of people picked the worst possible race out of the PHB (seriously, even half elf would be better), then did a whole bunch of other things wrong does not mean Druids don't own everything. It means if you actively anti optimize, instead of just going with the flow like a new player would, they might not be beatsticks. But they still get spells, and a beatstick as a class feature, so Druids still win. Full stop.

Also, lol at the Druid/AC jokes.

Lol more at the guy who made the joke Monk thread using his material on Druids now. You're a very funny man.

Armads
2009-02-28, 07:31 PM
I dunno. Good hit points. 6 skill pts/level, hard to hit (full plate, tower shield and expertise get him quite far here), decent damage with greatsword, +9 to trip when enlarged...

Wait, WHAT?

Good hit points? With 10 con? That's an average of 21 hp at level 3. A wizard with a +2 con mod has 15 hp (18 with a toad familiar). A druid with a +2 con mod has 23 hp. A single sneak attack by an average orc rogue can quite possibly kill you.

Of course other classes can be killed by said rogue, since hp is tiny at level 3, but those classes actually can contribute at those levels.

6 skill points/level mean nothing when your list is tiny, with cross class spot/listen being quite useless, no trapfinding. Also, once you become a wartroll, you have to ride a huge mount. Which is going to be hard to find/bring around.

Turtling with full plate + tower shield + expertise just mean that you can block a 5ft dungeon square IF you constantly crawl 5ft wide dungeons. In any open space, enemies will just walk past you and try to eat your other party members. Any touch spell will kill you, if it hits. And I'm not even sure you have enough strength to lug that sort of armor around, not to mention that touch spells like ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray will kill you.

If your party members decide to buff you before you become a wartroll, it will only be because they're taking pity on you. Buffing a ranger/druid/rogue with Bull's Strength will be so much better than buffing a 10 str fighter.



See above. Plus, at 4th level, dispels do not fly around that often. Plus, you'd have to see the fighter to do a targeted dispel. Possible, but not always happening. At higher levels, though....ring of blinking could help a lot, as could mirror image effects.

Dispel removes PAO. Does armor magically resize to fit smaller form? If yes, you can still survive, although you will be completely useless. If no, you're totally dead, although you may just survive because the enemies realise you won't make a difference and ignore you.



the fluff was provided. You can't play ANY character, if the DM does not provide the setting for it ("OK, you all start in this great metropolis where you grew up and uh, sorry Bob, you can't play a druid...").

Why would the DM allow you to PAO into a wartroll at level 4 (what CR is that thing anyway? 8? 12? 15?) and then bar another player from playing a druid? Also, using your fluff is provided example, again, why not just say that you were Pun-Pun? Or if you don't feel like being Pun Pun, then just say that you were a Black Ethergaunt who died 15 times and got resurrected each time, thus leaving you with 1 hit dice and +4 LA. Bam, 17th level wizard casting at ECL 5, immunity to 6th level or lower spells, +20 racial int bonus. Then you can be a good int fighter (including immunity to dispels!).

So your whole point is "the DM may arbitrarily and massively rule in favor of a fighter becoming completely, ridiculously overpowered, thus you can play an int fighter?"

Starbuck_II
2009-02-28, 07:49 PM
Dispel removes PAO. Does armor magically resize to fit smaller form? If yes, you can still survive, although you will be completely useless. If no, you're totally dead, although you may just survive because the enemies realise you won't make a difference and ignore you.


Unless you have some special magic on that armor that says it resizes (like Sizing enhancement): nope stays big or small.

You could just buy a psychoactive Skin called EXtoplasmic Armor (3000) for giving +8 AC and Max Dex +2 in Complete Psionic (doesn't penalize speed). It will resize. Cost more than mundane full plate, but will be useful in this case.

Armads
2009-02-28, 10:06 PM
Sizing's a weapon enhancement...

Advocate
2009-03-01, 07:28 AM
Armor wouldn't resize, because any armor you had on at the time would meld into your form.

Also, Armads = win.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-01, 12:05 PM
Ok, stop right there. Just because a bunch of people picked the worst possible race out of the PHB (seriously, even half elf would be better), then did a whole bunch of other things wrong does not mean Druids don't own everything. It means if you actively anti optimize, instead of just going with the flow like a new player would, they might not be beatsticks. But they still get spells, and a beatstick as a class feature, so Druids still win. Full stop.
.

You always assume that people play the way you play. Maybe in a certain campaing setting, the druidic lore is diffused only toward Elves, Orcs, Gnolls, Killoreen and Goliaths.

Or someone want to roll an Elven Druid and couldn't care less of how much can be powerful or weak this combination, because likes the concept and for him PCs are not mere bunch of stats :smallsmile:

Advocate
2009-03-01, 12:29 PM
No, I assume people are not actively trying to screw themselves at every turn. Which means picking any race that doesn't penalize Con and Wis when playing a class that really only cares about Con and Wis, and doesn't give a damn about Str and Dex as he just Wild Shapes anyways.

When you would be better off as a half elf or half orc than as what you picked, it's a good sign you screwed up. Badly.

sonofzeal
2009-03-01, 12:29 PM
Ok, stop right there. Just because a bunch of people picked the worst possible race out of the PHB (seriously, even half elf would be better), then did a whole bunch of other things wrong does not mean Druids don't own everything. It means if you actively anti optimize, instead of just going with the flow like a new player would, they might not be beatsticks. But they still get spells, and a beatstick as a class feature, so Druids still win. Full stop.
"Anti-optimize"? No, every single one of those (and I know because I did my best to help them with the character) chose Elf because they thought "Elven Druid" was cool and wanted to play one. They weren't thinking "oh well wildshape replaces all my physical scores except my con because my hp don't change", half of them barely even understood how to make attack rolls. They chose Elven Druids because they like the nature theme and magicalness of Druids, they liked the elegance and poise of Elves, and they have been conditioned by fantasy to accept Elves as the most nature-y of the base races.

Honestly, most of the people I've played with don't really understand optimization at all, and don't really care to learn. It would never even occur to most of them that Dwarves make truely excellent Wizards, because it doesn't match the pre-supposed flavour of the race. Similarly, it wouldn't occur to them that Elves make poor Wizards and Druids, because those are two of the traditional archetypes for elves. And, if they make all their choices from that mentality, well it's quite possible to lag behind a group. I should know. I've seen it happen four times.

Advocate
2009-03-01, 12:30 PM
So basically, they fell into the Lying Fluff trap. Ivory Tower for the win.

Yukitsu
2009-03-01, 12:35 PM
Meh. Druids are SAD enough and overall powerful enough that they can handle having poor race decisions. Getting a capped wisdom, then the rest dumped into con makes the differences rather academic. It's kind of like asking whether or not it's better to deal 1000000 damage or 100000 damage. The difference doesn't matter, since no listed monster survives either. May as well pick what you like if you're going to win no matter what you do.