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MustacheFart
2009-01-30, 02:21 AM
Hello all,

I am playing in a campaign that so far seeems pretty balanced loot-wise. It doesn't seem like it is going to start leaning toward a low-wealth campaign or towards the opposite, a high-wealth campaign. It's definately a low-rp campaign though.

I expect the game to stay pretty close to wealth by character level.

We all started at level 1 and have just reached level 3 at the end of last session.

Given that, the current party make up is:

1 Half-orc Cleric
1 Human Spiked Chain Fighter
1 Elf Wizard(? I think, the guy has missed the last session and we just started not long ago)

AND

ME, a halfling ranger

My problem is that I am not really experienced at all when it comes to ranged classes. I wanted to play one for a change of pace and I think I'm a little overwhelmed.

I have been reading up on the forums and I've gathered a lot of information; especially about particular builds but I'm still puzzled.

The DM and the spiked chain fighter advised that I pursue the beastlord PrC to attain a bat as my animal companion so I can fly around n' shoot people. They specifically informed me that there are no other good ranged PrCs and that beastlord is the best way to go. I find their certainty questionable but maybe they're right.

Anyway, I really don't want to be flying around on a bat shooting people as it is kind of a stray away from the concept I had in mind. Don't get me wrong I'm sure it is fun but I just don't see my character relying on an animal companion. In fact I don't even see him being an animal-owning "type" of guy (aside from a horse/basic mount). That has got me really asking myself, "why in the hell did I go ranger?" I guess I thought ranger would make for a good ranged character (shock) and more importantly having been playing many melee characters, I didn't want to see the word "fighter" on my character sheet for a while. I'm regretting that.

Here is where I need help:

Should I re-roll or is there a way to fix my character?

Basically I envisioned my character as a Gambit (minus the explosive cards and bow staff) type of guy. A lone survivalist who leans a little more toward being shady than outright but can lay on a heavy hurting with his bow (weak characters suck in low rp campaigns).

I want to be able to keep up in damage with the party or if possible, lead in damage (prolly not with a wizard and I'm not sure the real damage capabilities of spiked chain fighters).

Currently my character is/has:

lvl 2 Halfling ranger (actually level 3 but haven't leveled my character yet)

str 12
dex 18
con 12
int 10
wis 14
cha 10

Items:

+1 Comp. Longbow (started with - given by DM)
+1 Chainshirt of Cold Resist (started with - given by DM)

Feats:

Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot

That's it pretty much. If you can recommend a reroll the rules are:

Core races and any related species of core races (ie. various dwarf races, elf races, etc but I think none with a la)
26 point buy if not pure*
32 point buy if pure*
All books available - personally I want to stay away from ToB this time and avoid anything involving psyonics

*my DM created the stipulation that if we chose to only go one base class and either 1 PrC( or atleast finish any PrC we go into) then we can use a 32 point buy which was what I did from the start.

I just want a guy that's as optimized as possible without being overly cheesey--one that seems to progress well as I level.

Any help would be awesome!

Thanks

MustacheFart

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-01-30, 02:58 AM
Distracting Shot is a pretty reasonable alternative to an animal companion if you don't want one. It's from PHB2 and allows you to cause enemies you hit to be considered Flanked by your allies for the rest of the turn or until they get hit again. That can be a great help, setting you up as a great support archer.

I'm not sure what a good Prestige Class might be for you, unfortunately. All I know is that a magic-enhanced bow is pretty much going to be necessary to keep up in damage. You're not a high-STR character, so you're not benefitting from a Comp Bow, really.

Highly recommend distracting shot though. It would be more helpful if you had a Rogue in the party, but it's still excellent as is. Later on, you can hit multiple enemies with your higher BAB and flank 4 or more guys.

-JM

Talic
2009-01-30, 03:08 AM
Flight is readily available from a multitude of sources. Beastlord offers nothing of value to that.

Good overall stat distribution... But I'd recommend differently.

To be honest, the best ranged attackers are going to be from one of these hoices.

1) Cleric
2) Psychic Warrior (Psionic)
3) Warblade (ToB)
4) Warlock

Draws for each:

Cleric: Zen archery means you don't compromise between archery and casting, some of the best buffs on the market.

PsyWar: Power points are pretty flexible, adaptable to a variety of styles. Can fit well with Gambit's explodey card thing, if you like.

Warblade: Start high strength, and with the Brutal Throw feat, you use strength to hit AND damage with thrown weapons (which, oddly, is gambit's forte). Combos into Bloodstorm Blade 10 for the REAL best ranged PrC in the game. Attack as many people as you like? Check. Apply melee feats and abilities to weapons? Check. Free Returning ability on everything you throw? Check. Best of all, hit level 5, andif you focus in the Iron Heart discipline, you use those abilities to fuel BSB. You never need to use another maneuver again. Combine with Power Attack, Sunder, Cleave, etc etc. Other good fats are Point blank shot, Far shot, and the like.

Warlock: pew pew beams, and combos into Hellfire warlock nicely. Spell like abilities can give flight very early.

Frosty
2009-01-30, 03:16 AM
Throw Lances or Daggers or Torches or Potions! Be Arthur :smallbiggrin:

JeminiZero
2009-01-30, 03:35 AM
The DM and the spiked chain fighter advised that I pursue the beastlord PrC to attain a bat as my animal companion so I can fly around n' shoot people. They specifically informed me that there are no other good ranged PrCs and that beastlord is the best way to go. I find their certainty questionable but maybe they're right.


Actually, there are plenty of good ranged PrCs out there. Bloodstorm Blade (ToB, grab 4 levels for lightning ricochet) has been mentioned. Another is Master Thrower (Complete Warrior, worth all 5 levels for weak spot). Combine both, and you can make iterative power attacks as ranged touch attacks.

I suppose what you want is a PrC for Bow and Arrow, but I can't recall any offhand right now.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-30, 03:57 AM
Archery isn't the best course of action for a Ranger, especially considering the alternatives for ranged attackers. I would probably remake/retrain (PH2) the character to be more useful, as follows:

Use Strongheart Halfling (lose the racial bonus on saving throws, gain a bonus feat at 1st level), and switch to the "not pure" ability score array as follows: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

Ranger is fine, but use the Wild Shape variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) from UA. You'll want to go Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ War Shaper 4/ MoMF 1/ Ranger 1/ MoMF 2 in that order. Get Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape from Frostburn, Robilar's Gambit, any feat at 15, and Defensive Sweep at 18. Use a Glaive and try to make use of AoOs until you get some decent combat forms. At level 7 you can use Lion, at 8 Dire Lion, at 9 Cave Troll (MM3) will last you until 12. At level 12 you'll get War Troll, or in 12-headed Cryohydra form (Frozen Wild Shape) use Robilar's Gambit to get a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Get a bunch of Wilding Clasps (MIC) for a Monk's Belt, Gloves of Dex, Amulet of Mighty Fists, and Armbands of Might. If the Wizard keeps showing up get him to cast Mage Armor on you each day. Get a few 1st level Pearls of Power and keep Rhino's Rush prepared, which you can use with Leap Attack for some huge hits. Get an animal companion but after level 7 don't replace it if it dies, maybe even dismiss it if it becomes a liability.

With two Tier 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) characters in the party you'll feel a bit useless with a Tier 4 class. The Fighter is sort of in the same boat, but in a low-RP game he'll have plenty of opportunities to shine. Ranger is actually a worse choice than Fighter in that case, but going Wild Shape Ranger into Master of Many Forms will make you considerably more viable.

Ricky S
2009-01-30, 04:12 AM
Hey,

I had a halfling cleric of the exact same build. The stats seem optimised so you just have to worry about your skills and items. Basically when I was playing with him I used him as an alternate rogue with my character using listen, spot, hide and move silently. It didnt really matter that I had a weak combat character because that seems heaps fun to me. It is especially rewarding to kill a single opponent even if you tank or wizard has taken out 5 of the same kind. Basically just get some good arrows.

Blunt arrows same price and weight as normal arrow but does none lethal damage instead. (great for knocking out peasants or anyone you're not supposed to kill.

Fire arrows 20 for 3 gp weighs 1 lb: does 1 fire damage and sets alight what it hits if flammable.

Water arrows 20 for 5 gp weighs 2lb: It is a pod filled with water on the end of an arrow, doesnt do damage but can put out torches, candles or any other sort of non-magical flame. -10ft to total range

Rope arrows 20 for 10 gp weighs 3lbs: It trails a 30ft rope made of strenthened silk rope. Useful for crossing gaps. Each rope arrow can hold a weight of 30lbs (fire off like 4 or 5 arrows then just climb across). -20 ft to total range

Gas Arrows 20 for 40 gp weighs 2lbs: Each arrow head is made from volcanic glass and shatters on impact. It contains a gas found only in the volcanoes they can be lethal dealing 2d6 damage, constitution save for half. Or dealing no damage but on a failed constitution save DC 12 they fall asleep as per the sleep spell. - 10ft to total range.

Also adamantine arrows, silver and cold iron. for were animals, faeries and damage reduction. Was heaps of fun to play.

These are cheap as and helped me heaps. Plus it was heaps of fun to play although I only killed 2 people in the entire campaign.

Talic
2009-01-30, 05:16 AM
Actually, there are plenty of good ranged PrCs out there. Bloodstorm Blade (ToB, grab 4 levels for lightning ricochet) has been mentioned. Another is Master Thrower (Complete Warrior, worth all 5 levels for weak spot). Combine both, and you can make iterative power attacks as ranged touch attacks.

I suppose what you want is a PrC for Bow and Arrow, but I can't recall any offhand right now.

That combination is a trap. Bloodstorm blade 4 is strong. Bloodstorm blade 10? Broken.

The capstone ability lets you attack as many targets within range that you like, once each.

1) Start with a seeking ghost touch javelin +1 (total +3 weapon)l.
2) Close your eyes. Everything now has total concealment to you.
3) Announce an attack on every square within range, except those where allies were when you closed eyes. (yes, it is legal to announce a square as a target)
4) Watch as all your miss chances are negated. Any creature that you have line of effect to will be attacked.

Even better. Say you're fighting a dragon with a 20 x 20 space.
Now, since you're attacking each square, attempting to hit concealed targets in those squares, each square the dragon occupies is a valid target. Congratulations, you just got 16 attacks on the dragon. If the DM rules that it's 20 feet tall as well? More like 64 attacks.

Not to mention obvious advantages versus hiding/invisible foes.

This is one example of many. Bloodstorm Blade does not need to be combined to rock.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 05:24 AM
I suppose what you want is a PrC for Bow and Arrow, but I can't recall any offhand right now.

They're all 3.0. Or well, I suppose Justice of Weald and Woe [Champions of Ruin] and Pious Templar [Complete Divine] are decent Archers, but really, the good archery stuff is all in 3.0. Quick list:
Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) - Power Shot, Threaten, 'nuff said
Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild) - Concealment reduction to 0, poison use, etc.
Order of the Bow Initiate (Sword & Fist) - the 3.0 version was actually good, the 3.5 version is a horrible waste of cardboard; Ranged Sneak Attack, free attack, Wis + Dex to ranged attacks, Close Combat Shot, etc.
Weapon Master (Sword & Fist) - hugely expensive to enter, but has few quite handy abilities, such as maximizing damage dice and getting 16-20/x4 criticals with a bow.

That's pretty much it.

Talic
2009-01-30, 05:53 AM
Bear in mind his overall theme. Gambit, minus splodin' cards.

Throw weapons are an option.

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-30, 06:11 AM
That combination is a trap. Bloodstorm blade 4 is strong. Bloodstorm blade 10? Broken.

The capstone ability lets you attack as many targets within range that you like, once each.

1) Start with a seeking ghost touch javelin +1 (total +3 weapon)l.
2) Close your eyes. Everything now has total concealment to you.
3) Announce an attack on every square within range, except those where allies were when you closed eyes. (yes, it is legal to announce a square as a target)
4) Watch as all your miss chances are negated. Any creature that you have line of effect to will be attacked.

Even better. Say you're fighting a dragon with a 20 x 20 space.
Now, since you're attacking each square, attempting to hit concealed targets in those squares, each square the dragon occupies is a valid target. Congratulations, you just got 16 attacks on the dragon. If the DM rules that it's 20 feet tall as well? More like 64 attacks.

Not to mention obvious advantages versus hiding/invisible foes.

This is one example of many. Bloodstorm Blade does not need to be combined to rock.

I honestly can't see many DMs letting you get away with this.

I do agree that Bloodstorm Blade is awesome though.

Talic
2009-01-30, 06:22 AM
If you keep it reasonable, most don't have a problem. While, yes, theoretically, the allowed attacks for a BSB using this are about 25,000 per round (one per square for 450 feet in all directions, including up)...

At long as you restrict yourself to 12-16 or so, most don't have a problem with it.

Still, unless you can get some precision damage in there (I'd say you could likely get 9d6 sneak by level 20, with work), and other damages (collision, elemental, vicious, etc etc), each of those attacks will be piddly amounts of damage. Also, damage is spread out, and not useful versus single stronger foes.

BobVosh
2009-01-30, 06:30 AM
That combination is a trap. Bloodstorm blade 4 is strong. Bloodstorm blade 10? Broken.

The capstone ability lets you attack as many targets within range that you like, once each.

1) Start with a seeking ghost touch javelin +1 (total +3 weapon)l.
2) Close your eyes. Everything now has total concealment to you.
3) Announce an attack on every square within range, except those where allies were when you closed eyes. (yes, it is legal to announce a square as a target)
4) Watch as all your miss chances are negated. Any creature that you have line of effect to will be attacked.

Even better. Say you're fighting a dragon with a 20 x 20 space.
Now, since you're attacking each square, attempting to hit concealed targets in those squares, each square the dragon occupies is a valid target. Congratulations, you just got 16 attacks on the dragon. If the DM rules that it's 20 feet tall as well? More like 64 attacks.

Not to mention obvious advantages versus hiding/invisible foes.

This is one example of many. Bloodstorm Blade does not need to be combined to rock.

That is so retarded I can't even imagine asking a DM to do that. That said, it is hilarous.


Anyway, you can go scout. Gives you range, naturish feel (if you cared about that on your ranger), and some skill monkey stuff. Your party seems to lack it. I really don't know much on optimizing scout beyond dervish so I'm sure you can google up some good builds with it.

MustacheFart
2009-01-30, 07:50 AM
Bear in mind his overall theme. Gambit, minus splodin' cards.

Throw weapons are an option.

First, let me say thanks guys for all the help!

Now, when I said gambit minus the xploding cards and bo staff, in my mind, that left only the witty, roguish, shady type of behavior (more rp I guess but its part of the concept). By Gambit, I really meant the type of character not the style in which he fights. Using thrown weapons would be too close to his style for me. I guess in this case I meant Gambit with a bow. Sorry for not clarifying better.

Also I'd rather avoid ToB classes/PrCs this time. I just got done playing an unarmed sword sage in a short campaign ran by the same DM and I think it left a sour taste in his mouth. He was running a pre-writting campaign and I just tore through it solo with no/little help/need of the other party members. It was fun but I don't want to be that strong I guess.

As for a little more information on the party:

- The wizard - I expect this character to not really be optimized. The guy playing him doesn't really seem to optimize much. The one campaign he did optimize a character he only did so because we ALL did and even then he didn't do it very well imo. So, consider this guy a decently-powered, nothing holy **** worthy, wizard.

- The cleric - Played by a chick who's still pretty new to DnD and seems to pretty much just enjoy the RPing that is present. I don't forsee much optimization in this character.

- The spike chain fighter - from talking with the guy I expect him to optimize this character as much as he can or knows how to.


So, given all that, I guess I was/am looking for a character that has a lot of tricks up his sleeve. Basically, an underestimated guy who walks into town and people don't think much of but, before they know it he's left with their loot and some of their lives. He's a cunning sneaky guy whom if you don't think much of, you'll soon live (or die as the case may be) to regret it. Get my idea? I hope so... Now that I think of it, I guess thrown weapons wouldn't be a terrible idea either.


Another concept I've been considering...well...am really really wanting to employ (since the party is heading to barbarian lands) is the following:

Stinky Steve - A smelly little guy who nobody liked and from a young age was ostracized for his smell (the majority of why nobody liked him). In fact his smell had such a negative effect on others that he was often made to sleep outside even by his own family. Now his family wasn't without heart. They offered to let him back in if he took a shower but Stinky Steve would have NO such thing! He believes his smell to be natural and super super manly! To him, to wash up is to be a sissy! Also he really doesn't find his smell that bad anyway ("everyone likes their own brand").

Never accepted he left home or the stable that was his home, in search of a way to harness and increase his own strength. You see, Stinky Steve believes in 3 important ideals! First a man's manliness is determined by smell, and second, a man's manliness is confirmed by his strength or combat prowess. These two ideals comboed with his upbringing or lack there of, has led him towards a goal of destroying anyone or anything that would doubt his manliness as he persues his third MOST important ideal: worthiness! You must prove that you are worthy to be a manly man!

To him, the third ideal of worthiness can only be proved by attaining and consuming....

....


....

The World's Best Breakfast Burrito!

To achieve such a feat and consume such a reward would prove beyond a doubt that he is the most worthy man around!

He will go to extremes to do so and will gladly risk his life in hopes of attaining such a valued prize!

Should anyone stand in his way or become a stepping stone toward his goal he will demolish them with reckless animalistic fury! Being raised by himself amongst the animals..as an animal (though he knows he is a man) has left him with a style of fighting that mimics the toughest of creatures! The only thing his enemies will see, should they manage to see, is a flash of fists, claws, feet, and teeth--all to the sounds of wild grunts in perfect synergy with their own blood-curdling screams!


Basically, I kind of imagine a guy that runs up, jumps on you, and just starts going all psycho like a rabid wolverine (no comic reference this time lol). For this concept I really envision a small character...particularly a dwarf! A dwarf seems to fit this idea to a T. I was thinking maybe a wild dwarf? I know they are small, more furry, and would fit my concept but I'm not sure on there stats.

Any ideas for this kind of concept? Not an uber-charger but a total freak-out use anything as a weapon melee character.

sebsmith
2009-01-30, 08:14 AM
Have you seen the Swift Hunter (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=854152)? Can you convince your dm to let you take ~4 levels in scout instead of a prestige class? If not it, can you trade ranger levels for mystic ranger levels? (Can be found here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) on page 91.) This might be worth it even if you can take Swift Hunter, especially with the feat "Sword of the Arcane Order." (Which can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a))