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Guinea Anubis
2009-01-30, 07:03 AM
My friends want me to run a game of Dark Heresy. After reading over the book I have to say I am impressed with the system. But since this is a whole new system I have to learn what are some of its pit falls?

Kiero
2009-01-30, 07:09 AM
Read Eisenhorn. Dark Heresy isn't supposed to be WFRP-in SPAAAAAAAACE!

More pertinently, ask your players what they're expecting from the game. 40k as a setting is one rife with all kinds of implicit assumptions on what goes and what doesn't, not helped by the number of times the thing has been re-written and ret-conned, and some of the contradictory genre conventions at work in the various different sources.

leperkhaun
2009-01-30, 07:30 AM
I would recommend reading Scorge the Heritic. It focuses entierly on an inquisitors cadre not the inquisitor. It features.... i think almost (if not all) of the careers and how they can contribute to the over all plan.

Guinea Anubis
2009-01-30, 12:43 PM
I told my players 4 things after reading the core book.
1) it is not going to be anythign like the Dawn of War game.
2) NO SPACE MARINES
3) the combat system looks very deadly.
4) It feels like like a "dark mystery/horror" game more the a "pew pew lasers" game.

Ashtar
2009-01-30, 01:07 PM
Recently my realization has been that Dark Heresy should be played like Call of Cthulhu. It's just as deadly and they fit very well.

So Dark Heresy is Call of Cthulhu in Space!

In fact, you could probably adapt some of the CoC scenarios to Dark Heresy with minimal changes. For kicks, you could even run the scenario on a less advanced world with horse drawn carts and victorian fogs. (What would a victorian hive look like?)

So Ambiance game, low firepower (or it doesn't matter what firepower you use, you are insignificant), RPG / Investigation, deep on characters - with backgrounds - and character interaction and dynamic style of rp. Dark Heresy is not really meant to be a Door/Monster type game at all, it can work that way, but ...

Have you read some Ciaphas Cain, Eisenhorn or Ravenor? Gaunt's ghosts is also good to show group dynamics in W40k and how the world really is with very few space marines and lots of humans.

Kiero
2009-01-30, 01:28 PM
Cain, Gaunt, Eisenhorn and Ravenor are definitely not CoC-styled, I can't think of a more ill-fitting association. They're high-firepower (as all Black Library fiction is), and what they do matters, they're pulp for pity's sake.

Ashtar
2009-01-30, 02:58 PM
Hum, Kiero: A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea.

I never said those books were CoC style. The last paragraph was an honest question unrelated to the preceding paragraph. But are you sure certain passages of the aforementioned books do not contain mind bending horrors brought fourth by rituals that mankind was not meant to know (Cain's green eyed lady and others)?

Guinea Anubis
2009-02-05, 07:41 AM
Ok, so I tryed to run my first game, and it went bad. One I was using the one shot from the GMs kit and it really did not leave much room for the PCs to do off the rails kind of stuff. Two the PCs did not really did not undertand there skills and what they could do. Three I messed up some stuff since I don't think I was using the "add +x to your skill for this roll" part right.

One thing that kind of up set my players a little was that they could not hit anythign in combat. They got in to a fire fight with 3 NPCs and could not hit the broad side of a barn.

So I am now sitting down and making my own one shot adventur involving a cult of Slaanesh on an imperial planet. Any ideas or tips you guys can give would be welcomed with open arms.

Name_Here
2009-02-05, 09:19 AM
If you want the game to be deadly and gritty be incredibly stingy with the armor. I let my group get their hands on some carapace early on and they have been able to wade into some pretty nasty situations and crawl out the other side.

Of course if you like the kind of game where the group can survive against literally impossible odds through luck, skill and a smidge of faith in the emperor give them carapace early and never look back. Carapace will allow the average player to survive more than 5 gunshots and give near complete immunity from all primative weapons. I've gone this route and had a ton of fun with it despite the fact that I thought I would have a real gritty game where a fight against gangers would be a near death experience.

So decide which campaign you want early on so that you don't make my mistake.

Kiero
2009-02-05, 11:35 AM
Ok, so I tryed to run my first game, and it went bad. One I was using the one shot from the GMs kit and it really did not leave much room for the PCs to do off the rails kind of stuff. Two the PCs did not really did not undertand there skills and what they could do. Three I messed up some stuff since I don't think I was using the "add +x to your skill for this roll" part right.

One thing that kind of up set my players a little was that they could not hit anythign in combat. They got in to a fire fight with 3 NPCs and could not hit the broad side of a barn.

So I am now sitting down and making my own one shot adventur involving a cult of Slaanesh on an imperial planet. Any ideas or tips you guys can give would be welcomed with open arms.

In all honesty I'd just jettison the system and run it with something better. Almost anything will do.

It's like they took WFRP, and said "how can we overcomplicate this still further?". And someone thought "I know, we'll add a whole load of unnecessary tiers of weapon proficiency, and far too many Talents". It's an awful mess.

As GM you're supposed to be contriving bonuses you can give to the PCs, because otherwise starting schlubs won't hit a damned thing.

But seriously, run it with something else.

Illiterate Scribe
2009-02-05, 02:53 PM
Read Eisenhorn. Dark Heresy isn't supposed to be WFRP-in SPAAAAAAAACE!

Actually, it basically is. Eisenhorn, Ravenor, and so on, where Inquisitors actually appear as fighters, you'd be wanting Dark Heresy beta, aka, Inquisitor.


As GM you're supposed to be contriving bonuses you can give to the PCs, because otherwise starting schlubs won't hit a damned thing.

Not my experience of play, really. Also, as you say, you're newbies - cracking off dead-eye shots is not what you're meant to do. A Rank 1 Arbites - the best starting character at shooting, arguably - is a rookie cop straight out of basic police academy training.

Kiero
2009-02-05, 08:24 PM
Actually, it basically is. Eisenhorn, Ravenor, and so on, where Inquisitors actually appear as fighters, you'd be wanting Dark Heresy beta, aka, Inquisitor.

No thanks, I've got plenty of much better systems at my disposal than some drek GW/BI threw together.


Not my experience of play, really. Also, as you say, you're newbies - cracking off dead-eye shots is not what you're meant to do. A Rank 1 Arbites - the best starting character at shooting, arguably - is a rookie cop straight out of basic police academy training.

Well that's one thing DH shares with a lot of other games, starting characters are pure awful. I'd never run a game featuring these no-hopers, I want Throne Agents, not "acolytes".

Ted_Stryker
2009-02-05, 10:16 PM
In Ballistic Test situations, auto fire and aiming can greatly increase an Acolyte's effectiveness. Give the PCs some chances to do these things when they get in a fire fight.

Illiterate Scribe
2009-02-06, 01:49 AM
No thanks, I've got plenty of much better systems at my disposal than some drek GW/BI threw together.

So it's bad because it's bad. Before you dismiss it as 'drek', why not try the system (which BI had nothing to do with)? Have you tried it?


Well that's one thing DH shares with a lot of other games, starting characters are pure awful. I'd never run a game featuring these no-hopers, I want Throne Agents, not "acolytes".

Well advance them. If you want to steamroll your way through enemies, then either play with more experienced characters, or, as you say, play another system. Dark Heresy goes for a more gritty feel where you need to act responsibly about your life, and standing there in the open shooting is about as good an idea as it would be in real life, no matter how totally badass you are, or how big your hat of authority is. You want heroic fantasy, try D20, or Exalted.

Kiero
2009-02-06, 05:46 AM
So it's bad because it's bad. Before you dismiss it as 'drek', why not try the system (which BI had nothing to do with)? Have you tried it?

I don't need to stick my hand in a fire to know it will hurt. I've played a lot of different stuff over my 15+ years, and have a pretty good idea of what works for me and what doesn't. Given I don't much like WFRP in the first place (and I'm playing that right now), and fundamentally disagree with the premise of DH (which incidentally I own), there's nothing for me to try. As to Inquisitor, it's not even an RPG, it's a skirmish game that leaves all the usual stuff an RPG needs to make up for yourself. I don't need a combat system, I need a conflict system.


Well advance them. If you want to steamroll your way through enemies, then either play with more experienced characters, or, as you say, play another system. Dark Heresy goes for a more gritty feel where you need to act responsibly about your life, and standing there in the open shooting is about as good an idea as it would be in real life, no matter how totally badass you are, or how big your hat of authority is. You want heroic fantasy, try D20, or Exalted.

Just advancing them completely misses the point about how the power level is set completely wrong to play games that are like the supposed "essential, inspirational material". Adding a load of bloat to a character (which is what you get if you just "advance them" is not a solution. The system is scaled wrong for what it's supposed to be about. And all those stupid weapon-use Talents are just the beginning of that.

Again, I've got systems, so I'm alright without recommendations, thanks. I already know what works for me. I wouldn't touch D20 or Exalted with a barge pole.

Bryn
2009-02-06, 08:54 AM
Alright; Kiero doesn't like Dark Heresy or Inquisitor, Illiterate Scribe does. Fair enough to both of you. Let's kill this argument before this goes the way of the 4e threads: pointless flamewars and rage over a game system :smallamused:.

Tips for running Dark Heresy...
Dark Heresy has a lot of good things in it. It has a fine description of the 40k universe, wonderfully over-the-top critical hit tables and perils of the warp, and a fairly simple system at heart without too many different mechanics (though I must agree with Kiero about bloat, there are probably too many skills and talents), and an excellent tone of dark humour that's perfect for the setting.

A few things I suggest removing: the rank system for the career paths is one. The names are fine, but I suggest leaving a character's rank in their organisation separate from their xp level, especially when it comes to organisations like the Imperial Guard.

I generally don't call for skill checks as often as the rulebook sometimes implies - only call for a check when it will have some meaningful impact on what's going on.

Dark Heresy is not DnD, so do not focus on fighting. Somehow make it clear to the players that if they get in a fight they will end up badly hurt, and give them plenty of options to avoid a battle and escape. When it does come to a fight, don't go for anything straightforward. Use interesting environments, and find ways to let your players do insane, over-the-top things without getting mauled by gunfire.

Make sure your players are happy to see their characters die, often in fairly pointless ways. Dark Hersy is a very lethal system, and Acolytes are not all that much tougher than anyone else.

There is quite a discrepancy in wealth, and while it's appropriate to the setting, I do reccomend giving the Scum player some stuff to balance things a bit, particularly if there's a priest in the party. The Inquisition should be able to equip its Acolytes well, although the poverty can be quite funny.

Do not be too strict in enforcing the rules. I reccomend this for any system, anywhere.

I reccomend getting the Warhammer 40k rulebook if you haven't got it, as it probably fills some gaps and covers the wider setting. Of course, if you're already familiar with the 40k universe, don't worry.

Other inspirational books include the excellent Xenology (though it wouldn't make for a good Dark Heresy campaign, it does deal with the Inquisition and it's also really good), the Eisenhorn books (which are rather more violent than your typical Dark Heresy campaign, but it does a good job of showing the Inquisition) and the background parts of the Inquisitor rulebook - fortunately available for free on the Internet, here (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat1290321&categoryId=1100009&aId=4900004).

Imperial Armour IV is more military than your standard Dark Heresy game, but it also features the Inquisition, and it's quite fun if you've watched the Alien films. The book is very expensive, though.

There is a 40k wiki, called Lexicanum, here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page).

You don't have to read all those books to play Dark Heresy, of course. The rulebook does a fine job of describing the universe on its own, and it has some good chapters about GMing that are worth reading.

Hope that helps.

...and now to get flamed for reccomending the Wrong Books...

Kiero
2009-02-06, 09:59 AM
Uh, Z-Axis, a lot of what you said is completely contrary to the spirit of what happens in Eisenhorn and Ravenor. They're pulp, the main characters are not disposable chumps who might be offed randomly, and fighting is very much a part of their MO when necessary.

But then so is the way DH is written, completely contradicting what it claims it's sources are.

Bryn
2009-02-06, 10:51 AM
Ah. I didn't mean to imply that Dark Heresy and Eisenhorn are all that similar.

My reasons for reccomending Eisenhorn are not to suggest the tone for DH games. It's more for the Inquisition - the functioning of the Inquisition itself, as well as the story of Inq. Eisenhorn's slow corruption that are useful inspirations for Dark Heresy. They're also a lot more entertaining to read than

However, as you say, it has lots more fighting - fair enough, for in a novel, a fight can be over in a few pages, but in many RPGs each fight will take a substantial amount of time to deal with - and in Eisenhorn the psychic powers are less dangerous for the user and possibly more effective. I definitely agree that Eisenhorn isn't best used as a guide to what DH characters are capable of, or how a campaign should run.

Hope that clarifies what I meant.

By the way I'm not saying that a Dark Heresy game should be completely without fighting. Still, fighting should be important when it comes up, though, because it has a high chance of offing people. :smallwink: