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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-30, 07:38 AM
So, I'm using the following dragon as a BBEG for a bunch of 20th level PCs and I really don't want him to die easily. Can you find ways for 20th level characters to easily (within 5 rounds or less) kill him so I can cover any weaknesses?

Níðhoggr, Devourer in the Shadows
Size/Type: Colossal Black, Shadow, Smoke Great Wurm (Elemental, Air, Fire, Cold)
Hit Dice: 37d12+555 (999 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 75 ft. (15 squares), fly 300 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 53 (-8 size, +8 Dex, +41 natural, +2 foresight), touch 12, flat-footed 45
Base Attack/Grapple: +37/+74
Attack: +50
Full Attack: Bite +50, 2 claws +45, 2 wings +45, tail slap +40
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Dragon abilities, spells, engulf, breath weapon, Crush, Frightful Presence
Special Qualities: damage reduction 35/magic, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, immunity to acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, massive damage and critical hits, spell resistance 45, Continual Ressurection, Death Denied, Quickening, Eternal Renewal, Strength of the Devoured, Luck Bonus, Evasion, Fast Healing 6, Shadow Blend
Saves: Fort +45, Ref +41, Will +37
Abilities: Str 52, Dex 26, Con 40, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26
Skills: Spot +47, Listen +47, Hide +30, Move Silently +36, Arcana +47, Spellcraft +47, 9 more maxed skills
Feats: Improved Initiative, Deflect Arrows, Awaken SR 5x, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack*, Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, Eternal
Flaws: not yet decided
Environment: Helheim, roots of Yggdrassil
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: Hel's Mark (see below)
Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Dragon Powers:
Water Breathing, Corrupt Water 1/day, Charm Reptiles 3/day, Darkness 3/day, Insect Plague 3/day, Plant Growth 1/day
Breath Weapon: 24d4 acid
Continual Ressurection: Níðhoggr is immortal. At the beginning of every 24-hour period, he benefits from a True Ressurection if he's dead. He rises at the roots of Yggdrassil or a place of his choosing.
Death Denied: Níðhoggr has +5 luck bonus to saves vs Necromancy effects and mettle vs these effects. He has a +10 luck bonus vs death and massive damage and rerolls all 1s in saves vs those effects.
Quickening: At the beginning of his every turn, Níðhoggr gains 37 temporary HP.
Eternal Renewal: Níðhoggr is hard to kill due to his immortality. Four times in each 24-hour period, whenever Níðhoggr would go below 0 hp (even if he would go below -10 and die) he returns to half his maximum HP instead.
Strength of the Devoured: Once per 24-hour period, Níðhoggr can use an ability known from the countless souls he's devoured over the ages. He can use one of the following abilities as a standard action:
a) Make a full attack as a standard action with +25 BAB, +11 strength modifier and a +8 speed, ghost-strike amulet of natural attacks.
b) Duplicate any arcane spell of 7th level or less with a CL of 37, no arcane spell failure, no failure due to concentration checks and a +10 bonus vs SR.
c) Duplicate any divine spell of 7th level or less with the same bonuses.
d) Duplicate any evil spell of 8th level or less with the same bonuses.
Luck bonus: Níðhoggr is favored of the dark powers. He gets a +10 luck bonus to all saves.
Shadow Blend: Níðhoggr has total concealment in all conditions except broad, natural daylight.
Spells: Níðhoggr casts as a 15th level sorceror. Spells known still undecided.
Hel's Mark: Níðhoggr is the keeper of a massive hoard containing all the items of the heroes that tried to slay him and failed. Unfortunately, he can use none of those items. His mistress Hel, however, has shown him her favor by enhancing his abilities. Níðhoggr is colossal instead of gargantuan, has maximum HP per HD, continiously benefits from Foresight and has a +5 inherent bonus to all his ability scores. This reflects instantaneous changes or (in the case of foresight) a permanent enchantment as if benefitting from a magic item with that spell.

Malacode
2009-01-30, 07:49 AM
Whee! Norse mythology!

Anyway, I think this is fine against a 20th level party. Unless I've skipped a line or something, there's no realy glaring weakness which jump out at me. Just keep the stat block away from the players, and don't let on to the fact that they're about to be attacked (Even if they know about a giant evil dragon that eats away at the World Tree, they don't know when they have to fight him). Somehow keep him from prying scrying eyes, and your players will probably have a fight on their hands. This is all assuming you have a party that aren't particularly optimised, though.

JeminiZero
2009-01-30, 08:31 AM
How optimized are your PCs?

Have you tried running him against Tippy's Cindy? (I'm not sure what Cindy looks like, but apparently she's one of the yardsticks for this sort of thing).

A shuriken master thrower combined with a Sonic Dragonfire Inspirier bard can hammer its one elemental vulnerability and bring it down quickly.

Maybe a Dweomerkeeper with quickened supernatural shivering touch, followed by maximized supernatural shivering touch for a total of 28.5 Dex damage on average in one round. Prefererably with arcane reach.

Also, to day I just learnt of the unlimited blade works bloodstorm blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5714863&postcount=8), which can hammer it 125 times per round, which would most probably kill it before round 5.

Can't think of anything else right now. Hope that helps. :smallsmile:

Godna
2009-01-30, 08:36 AM
Wouldnt Shivering Touch be able to drop him?

just quicken it and than normal cast it with with a metamagic rod of maximize?

Nevermind just saw the cold subtype upthere

just gate it the positive energy plane and give it the ol "bigby's expressive gesture"

Khatoblepas
2009-01-30, 09:46 AM
Shadows would tear this guy apart. In fact, he can't attack anything incorporeal (his weapons aren't Magic or Epic or anything) All the shadows would have to do is pop up, touch him, then escape back into a wall. Creating shadows is easy, though - Create Undead, or just go to the Negative Energy Plane. He needs immunity to ability damage.
This won't trigger his Death clause, as he's not dead, but he is helpless.

Likewise, Wights. They can touch him, and he'd lose levels, spell resistance or no. Wights are even EASIER to create, so all the PCs would have to do is build up an expendable army. And this means, even with five attacks per round, spells and 9 AoOs per round etc, the Wights can still overwhelm him. He won't rise as death by level drain don't reduce you below 0hp. He needs protection from level drain.
Of course, if you have Savage Species, he might just rise as a Nithhoeggr Wight. Scary. Then I guess it's a case of getting him to go away and not kill him. Plane Shift his corpse to the Negative Energy Plane? OR polymorph him into a bunny rabbit. Bunny Rabbit Wight?

Someone from the Tome of Battle might be able to bash him into shape with the Stone Dragon moves that damage Con. Eldar Mountain Hammah away, and he will die, no save. That is, if the ToB guy can hit him.

Interesting. This guy sure would be fun to fight, though.

BobVosh
2009-01-30, 09:59 AM
15th level sorcerer. It better have a way to plane shift. Although on that note, why not 16th level sorcerer?

Also do you have to kill it, then wish it a la Tarrasque?

That said I always love looking at your creations Belial

Douglas
2009-01-30, 10:00 AM
He needs a way to deal with negative levels and ability damage. Assay Resistance + other SR penetration boosts can render his SR 45 useless without too much trouble (provided the wizard takes SR seriously), and repeated metamagiced Enervation or Ray of Stupidity would take it out pretty quickly.

Edit: Oh yeah, Infinite Exceptional Deflection would take care of those two spells in particular quite thoroughly. There are plenty of other ways to apply negative levels or ability damage without needing ranged touch attacks, though. Fell Drain Magic Missile just for something cheap, low level, and reliable.

Edit2: Make that Fell Drain Hail of Stone - just as reliable and no SR. Add Arcane Thesis and pile on Twin, Quicken, and some (Greater) Arcane Fusion to put out a lot more than one negative level per round.

Swooper
2009-01-30, 12:07 PM
I can't think of any weakness to this beast, I'd be horrified at facing it myself :smalleek:

However, I'd like to point out that the name of the serpent-dragon of Norse mythology is spelled "Níðhöggur" or "Níðhöggr"*, not "Níðhǫggr". :smalltongue:

*In Old Norse, the "u" in "-ur" nominative noun endings is missing, but is thought to have been there originally and then reinstated in later centuries. So both are technically correct.

Eldan
2009-01-30, 12:39 PM
Well, if he has sorcerer levels, there's certainly a few buffs that protect him against level and ability drain somewhere in all those splat books?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-30, 01:13 PM
I am not really afraid about rays, ranged touch attacks and ranged attacks due to its infinite deflection but energy drain and ability drain/damage might be a problem.

I was considering Antimagic Aura. The only nonmagical ways for ability drain/damage I know of are poisons and diseases to which he's immune and pretty much everything energy-draining is supernatural. Incorporeal creatures especially will simply wink out.

As for boosts to spell resistance, a wizard would need Truecasting, Greater Penetration and quite a few CL boosters to overcome it. Assay Resistance doesn't work because the dragon will always have total concealment and thus can't be targetted (there's no sunlight in Helheim)

The most dangerous batman spells are targetted. The problem (for the PCs) here is the total concealment. They can't target him at all.

Adumbration
2009-01-30, 01:26 PM
I can't think of much anything, apart from some specialized tactics. You might be in for slight trouble if you have a skilled caster of druid spells. Spells that simulate weather conditions can be major pains in the butt, especially when the spells that can remove the said conditions from few specific people are first level druid spells.

Whiteout might inconvenience him a bit. Blizzard, too. Druid also has some good no save, no SR spells such as Deadfall that will reliably deal damage, but the party might just leave the big bad dragon wandering in it's unescapable whiteout and go get the epic items of legend to whop it's ass.

I also notice a distinct lack of Immunity to Mind-affecting.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-30, 01:37 PM
Hit Dice: 37d12+555 (999 hp)
Should be (37*6.5)+555=795 HP

Armor Class: 43 (-8 size, +8 Dex, +41 natural, +2 foresight), touch 10, flat-footed 33
Should be AC 53, touch 12, flat-footed 45.


Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+74
Should be +37/+74.


Attack: +64
Should be +50.


Full Attack: Bite +64, 2 claws +62, 2 wings +62, tail slap +60
Should be bite +50/2 claws +45/2 wings +45/tail slap +45. He doesn't have Multiattack or Improved Multiattack.


Saves: Fort +46, Ref +41, Will +38
Should be Fort +45, Ref +40, Will +37


Breath Weapon: 24d4 acidWhat's the saving throw? Is the save Constitution-based?


Quickening: At the beginning of his every turn, Níðhǫggr gains 37 temporary HPThis is a silly ability. Give him Fast Healing 37 and be done with it.

Eternal Renewal: Níðhǫggr is hard to kill due to his immortality. Four times in each 24-hour period, whenever Níðhǫggr would go below 0 hp (even if he would go below -10 and die) he returns to half his maximum HP instead.Immediately? In X rounds? In X hours?

Strength of the Devoured: Once per 24-hour period, Níðhǫggr can use an ability known from the countless souls he's devoured over the ages. He can use one of the following abilities:
a) Make a full attack as a standard action with +25 BAB, +11 strength modifier and a +8 speed, ghost-strike amulet of natural attacks.
b) Duplicate any arcane spell of 7th level or less with a CL of 37, no arcane spell failure, no failure due to concentration checks and a +10 bonus vs SR.
c) Duplicate any divine spell of 7th level or less with the same bonuses.
d) Duplicate any evil spell of 8th level or less with the same bonuses.What kind of action does it take to activate this?

Shadow Blend: Níðhǫggr has total concealment in all conditions except broad, natural daylight.You realize this makes him immune to AoOs and targeted spells?


Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.


Hel's Mark: Níðhǫggr is the keeper of a massive hoard containing all the items of the heroes that tried to slay him and failed. Unfortunately, he can use none of those items. His mistress Hel, however, has shown him her favor by enhancing his abilities. Níðhǫggr is colossal instead of gargantuan, continiously benefits from Foresight and has a +5 inherent bonus to all his ability scores.Since Hel cast foresight, should Nidhogg gain the +2 AC/Reflex?


When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 03:10 PM
...

I don't know what is worse, this fight or my fight against the CR 28 encounter...

here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5715955#post5715955)

I sure didn't want to encounter this thing in my way...

Sholos
2009-01-30, 03:27 PM
To best respond to this, we need to know the capabilities of your players' party. What challenges one party may only be a mop-up job for another.

notagain111
2009-01-30, 04:18 PM
Only thing i noticed was that his dr is 35/magic. if i recall correctly, this means that any magical weapon can bypass it. I'm sure at level 20 all of their weapons and silly backup weapons are at least +1 weapons, which would skip over this. maybe just set it to dr 40/-?

as a side note, are they actually supposed to be able to kill this thing eventually, or just survive until they decide its time to run out of there?

Myrmex
2009-01-30, 04:57 PM
Shadows would tear this guy apart. In fact, he can't attack anything incorporeal (his weapons aren't Magic or Epic or anything) All the shadows would have to do is pop up, touch him, then escape back into a wall. Creating shadows is easy, though - Create Undead, or just go to the Negative Energy Plane. He needs immunity to ability damage.
This won't trigger his Death clause, as he's not dead, but he is helpless.

300 ft fly speed (good).


Likewise, Wights. They can touch him, and he'd lose levels, spell resistance or no. Wights are even EASIER to create, so all the PCs would have to do is build up an expendable army. And this means, even with five attacks per round, spells and 9 AoOs per round etc, the Wights can still overwhelm him. He won't rise as death by level drain don't reduce you below 0hp. He needs protection from level drain.
Of course, if you have Savage Species, he might just rise as a Nithhoeggr Wight. Scary. Then I guess it's a case of getting him to go away and not kill him. Plane Shift his corpse to the Negative Energy Plane? OR polymorph him into a bunny rabbit. Bunny Rabbit Wight?

1. Wights have to make a slam attack to drain, which means they have to hit AC 43.

2. Fly speed 300 ft (good)


He needs a way to deal with negative levels and ability damage. Assay Resistance + other SR penetration boosts can render his SR 45 useless without too much trouble (provided the wizard takes SR seriously), and repeated metamagiced Enervation or Ray of Stupidity would take it out pretty quickly.

CL check of 1d20+20 (levels) + 4 (penetrate, greater penetrate) + 10 (assay spell resistance) + 2 (robe of the archmagi) +1 (orange ioun stone) +1 (a ring) = 1d20+ 18. Even a natural 20 isn't going to help you. With arcane mastery, it's always a 28 check

Where are the other 12 coming from?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-30, 05:47 PM
A few things:

1) With the exception of Hel's Mark (which can be replicated via items or creature traits anyway) nothing in the creature is homebrewed. Stats are dragon+elite+templates+inherents. Abilities are dragon+feats+templates. I'd like to keep the creature classless and non-homebrewed so ruleslawyers in the group won't cry foul. So if some abilities are weird, that's what the feats/templates are saying.

2) There are a few mistakes due to copy-pasting. I'll fix those-a big thank you to Fax Celestis for pointing them out.

3) The party consists of one berzerker/barbarian/paladin of freedom charger, one wizard/incantarix/archmage blaster, one straight clericzilla and one archery-focused paladin/fighter/kensai. Infinite loops, free money and xp making, shifting to non-SRD creatures and the Persistent Spell feat are not allowed.

AslanCross
2009-01-30, 05:56 PM
Only thing i noticed was that his dr is 35/magic. if i recall correctly, this means that any magical weapon can bypass it. I'm sure at level 20 all of their weapons and silly backup weapons are at least +1 weapons, which would skip over this. maybe just set it to dr 40/-?

as a side note, are they actually supposed to be able to kill this thing eventually, or just survive until they decide its time to run out of there?

Yeah, DR/Magic is pretty pointless. DR/Epic would probably make more sense in this case.

Eldariel
2009-01-30, 05:59 PM
Wouldn't Mindsight pretty much ignore the whole "Total Concealment"-part negating much of its principal magic defense?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-30, 06:16 PM
Níðhoggr isn't supposed to be invincible-only very tough to kill. Under that light, both its DR and Shadow Blend do have somewhat easy to access counters that can overcome them at close range. That, until Antimagic Field enters the game. Then weapons become nonmagical and fail to overcome DR and mindsight no longer works...

Myrmex
2009-01-30, 06:24 PM
Wouldn't Mindsight pretty much ignore the whole "Total Concealment"-part negating much of its principal magic defense?

Mindsight only allows you to see what square a creature is in.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-30, 06:54 PM
Níðhoggr isn't supposed to be invincible-only very tough to kill. Under that light, both its DR and Shadow Blend do have somewhat easy to access counters that can overcome them at close range. That, until Antimagic Field enters the game. Then weapons become nonmagical and fail to overcome DR and mindsight no longer works...

Shadow Blend is normally a supernatural ability, so that would shut off in an AMF as well.

Emy
2009-01-30, 06:58 PM
Be sure to mark which type each ability is, just in case it gets AMF'd or similar.

I'd go with something like this:

(Sp) Dragon Powers: Water Breathing (how often?), Corrupt Water 1/day, Charm Reptiles 3/day, Darkness 3/day, Insect Plague 3/day, Plant Growth 1/day
(Su) Breath Weapon: 24d4 acid
(Su) Continual Ressurection
(Su) Death Denied
(Su) Quickening
(Su) Eternal Renewal
(Su) Strength of the Devoured
(Su) Hel's Mark
(Su) Shadow Blend
(Ex) Fast Healing
(Ex) Luck Bonus

As for ability damage (and negative levels too, I think), give it the Lightkeeper archetype from Dragons of Eberron, and make 1 to 3 of its feats be Extra Turning (so it'll have 4-12 turns per day). Then give it the Sacred Vitality feat from Libris Mortis.

edit: If the dragon knows they're coming, Scintillating Scales is a great buff for someone with so much natural armor unless Níðhoggr is planning on spending the fight in an AMF; I'm not sure what its battle strategy is going to be. Use the Spell Compendium version, not the Draconomicon version, since SpC is newer.

This would change the AC from


Armor Class: 53 (-8 size, +8 Dex, +41 natural, +2 foresight), touch 12, flat-footed 45
to
Armor Class: 53 (-8 size, +8 Dex, +41 deflection, +2 insight), touch 53, flat-footed 45[/quote]

As an aside, I love the absurdity of the flat-footed AC number including a bonus from a buff that says "you are never flat-footed".


Edit2: Make that Fell Drain Hail of Stone - just as reliable and no SR. Add Arcane Thesis and pile on Twin, Quicken, and some (Greater) Arcane Fusion to put out a lot more than one negative level per round.

Uh, Hail of Stone has SR, at least according to Complete Arcane. I'm pretty sure CArc is newer than Underdark.

edit #2: Underdark says it has SR too.

Other than that, uh... watch out for a TPK. :p