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Tomada
2009-01-30, 01:10 PM
Hi people.

We are in a 18th level party, probably going against a CR28th encounter, or so.

Need help preparing.

First, the villain should be a lich sorceror capable of some Epic Spells, around 23 to 25th CASTER level, plus lich LA.

It should be accompanied of at least an epic Rogue (around 21th level) and at least one Dumb Epic Fighter, which I don't know what would be at first. The first 2 are recurring villains. The lich is kind of a necromancer, using death effects and energy drain. The rogue is just a pain in the ass sneak attacker. The dumb epic fighter should be something VERY strong with a Epic Stick.

The thing is, they will be probably accompanied of a couple of adamantine golems, which is NOT nice.

Some things:

1 - Golembane scarabs do NO GOOD against those golems. They are EPIC.
2 - Using CORE + Complete Arcane, Adventurer, Warrior and Divine.

Party consists of:

ME: Necromancer wizard 5/Divine Oracle 2/Archmage 3/Loremaster 8
A Frenzied Berserker Barbarian
A Cleric 17/Heirophant 1 (divine reach)
A Swashbuckler 3/ranger 15 for Int + Favored enemy bonus stacking with 2 weapons. Rely HEAVILY on crits with improved critical and all other critical feats.

I took as an Archmage Arcane Reach, Mastery of Shaping and Spell like hability Enervation with Divide Ray and Chain spell tackled on.

Some strategies:

1 - Prismatic wall behind enemies, Bigbys Forceful hand bull rush enemies through it.
2 - Grease the golems in place. In a 6 or worse they fall, and every hit they take they have to roll balance again.
3 - Cleric Death wards us all with a chained casting in the beginning of the combat.
4 - I put a Contingency in my familiar specifying to counter spell any dispel magic fired in range with a greater dispel.
5 - My contingency remains the same as always, blink, greater, when struck by any attack or spell.
6 - Frenzied Berserker and 2WF ranger do their thing and beat enemies to death, while not letting then through to me.
7 - I resilient sphere at least one golem (probably both) for later when we killed the rest of the evil party
8 - I try to glitterdust the rogue first, so he can't be unseen and sneak attack



Now to some questions:

1 - What is the best way to kill an Epic Arcane caster, short of using another EPIC arcane caster? And don't forget he is a lich, so immunity to everal things, plus, of course, Epic caster... that WILL get him some protection;
2 - Killing Epic Fighter and Rogue will be a problem? How to evade his sneak attacks? We could make ranger + barbarian stay back to back, but then they could just stay in front of one of then.
3 - How the HELL do we kill those golems? I can make the bipass the DR (empowered magic weapon greater, +6 is EPIC). But still too strong to take head on;
4 - We should probably be safe from power attacks from the fighter, the cleric is giving greater magic vestment, empowered and I am giving greater arcane armor, empowered both as chain spells. Anything we are missing?
5 - How the ****ING HELL we take all of this at the same time?


A little more info for you guys:

I am a specialist necromancer with barred illusion and enchantment (not optimal, but since I usually go the opposite route, being enchantment and illusionist, it seemed nice). I have a metamagic rod of empower and another of quicken, both up to 6th level spells. Empower is used to empower chainned magic weapon and greater arcane armor to every party member, so just one charge remaining.

The Cleric has NO divine metamagic, but can be pumped up through Empowered Buffs to Clericzilla mode, if needed be. Has a rod of quicken as well.

Barbarian have a nice +10 axe, which I don't believe to be adamantine... so no DR penetrating. I don't know the specifics of his gear, however he dishes a LOT of damage.

Ranger is fairly optimized, against any of his Favorite enemies he is a SERIOUS threat and can outdamage the barbarian with several Favorite enemy feats and a lot of criticals. 15-20 with sabers. Undead and humans are two of his favorite enemies I know, also dragons, so probably NOT constructs. The rogue and lich are easy preys for him.

And I think that is it.

Are we in for a TPK or are there any hope for us?

Ps: We killed a CR25 encounter as a level 15th party back then...


EDIT: NEW BATTLE STRATEGY FROM INPUT AND IDEAS!

Round 1: Assuming I can apply moment of prescience to initiave, I win, then:
1 - cast anti-magic field on the square of the Lich, quickened via ROD. (I'm assuming he has this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway) attuned for time stop, the DM loves it.)
2 - Cast time stop. Roll 1d4.
3 - Prismatic sphere exactly around the antimagic field and quickened via Rod resilient sphere around it.
4 - Reverse gravity on golems.
5 - Prismatic wall behind rogue + fighter.
6 - Profit.

hamishspence
2009-01-30, 01:15 PM
CR can be a litle unreliable- a CR 25 encounter might be a walkover if it has the right weaknessess. But when going up against powerful magic and powerful magic-immune combat monsters, and you are 10 levels below them- technically you shouldn't even be on the Experience table- it stops 8 levels above you.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 01:27 PM
CR can be a litle unreliable- a CR 25 encounter might be a walkover if it has the right weaknessess. But when going up against powerful magic and powerful magic-immune combat monsters, and you are 10 levels below them- technically you shouldn't even be on the Experience table- it stops 8 levels above you.

I know, that's why I need help.

That 25th CR encounter went nice because i could pull a batman wizard VERY well. And some lucky rolls, like almost killing a death knight with one divide ray disintegration, which was not saved.

And glitterdusting the rogue, which was a saving grace.

other things went well too, put still, I could only cast a couple level 1 and 2 spells after that encounter, we had to use a scroll of true resurrection we had (to ress the cleric, mind you, glad I have UMD) and I took the healing staff from his body, which allowed me to heal the barbarian that was deep in his negative HP with deathless frenzy.

the ranger almost fell too, and I was left with 13HP after that...


And to note, that a WIZARD was almost without spells is a sign he prepared the RIGHT spells. We were hinted on undead, so I prepared.

Adumbration
2009-01-30, 01:32 PM
Just when I was about to suggest Dominating the big bad Fighter, I see you banned Enchantment and Illusion. Damn.

If you want to go completely cheesy, use all your other spells for buffs on allies, and then Shapechange into a Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm). You need to up your CL just a bit, but it will make you into a colossal snake. Proceed to grapple the lich.

Leewei
2009-01-30, 01:43 PM
Any Lich, no matter how epic, will die if you destroy its phylactery. Wasting the Lich would make this encounter far, far easier. It boils down to whether or not the DM will allow you to discover its whereabouts and appearance, however this could allow you to win the encounter.

Other ideas include greater planar ally to summon up a big flying or burrowing creature capable of manhandling the Lich. Pin the Lich down in an anti-magic field. A familiar is ideal for this purpose -- have it hang out where the Lich can't reach it with the spell effect centered on it. The ally should specifically not allow the Lich to talk. In the AMF, its DR is merely 15/bludgeoning. Your ally can go to town using slams.

Hmm, I have to wonder if mordenkainen's disjunction might not destroy the Lich outright if it is in possession of its phylactery. A phylactery is, after all, a magic item.

The rogue needs to clearly see PCs to land Sneak Attacks. Chain blur will annoy the hell out of him. You know, another special grappler would probably work fine against him. Summon a Huge Air Elemental and have it grab him and fly straight up for the remainder of combat.

The brute and golems should be a decent yet manageable encounter for you once you've stripped off these two.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 02:37 PM
Just when I was about to suggest Dominating the big bad Fighter, I see you banned Enchantment and Illusion. Damn.

If you want to go completely cheesy, use all your other spells for buffs on allies, and then Shapechange into a Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm). You need to up your CL just a bit, but it will make you into a colossal snake. Proceed to grapple the lich.

...

Can my familiar use my Maxed UMD to use a staff or scroll of enchantment/illusion?

And even against a 10 level higher challenge using polymorph cheese seems WRONG.

The cleric will probably use Summon Elemental Monolith to call something big to stay in front too, now that I think of it. It could go ahead and grapple the lich, but he could either have this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/letGoOfMe.htm) or any still or silent dim door or something. You know, he IS an Epic caster.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 02:43 PM
Any Lich, no matter how epic, will die if you destroy its phylactery. Wasting the Lich would make this encounter far, far easier. It boils down to whether or not the DM will allow you to discover its whereabouts and appearance, however this could allow you to win the encounter.

Other ideas include greater planar ally to summon up a big flying or burrowing creature capable of manhandling the Lich. Pin the Lich down in an anti-magic field. A familiar is ideal for this purpose -- have it hang out where the Lich can't reach it with the spell effect centered on it. The ally should specifically not allow the Lich to talk. In the AMF, its DR is merely 15/bludgeoning. Your ally can go to town using slams.

Hmm, I have to wonder if mordenkainen's disjunction might not destroy the Lich outright if it is in possession of its phylactery. A phylactery is, after all, a magic item.

The rogue needs to clearly see PCs to land Sneak Attacks. Chain blur will annoy the hell out of him. You know, another special grappler would probably work fine against him. Summon a Huge Air Elemental and have it grab him and fly straight up for the remainder of combat.

The brute and golems should be a decent yet manageable encounter for you once you've stripped off these two.

I think all of the will have freedom of movement cast, now that I think of it.

And in an anti-magic field the berserker can probably grapple him, but that puts the rest of us in charge of another 4 opponents, which is almost a guaranteed kill for the rogue, that will be flanking the ranger.

Is there a way to negate flank?

I will see if I can put a reverse gravity in the rogue + fighter, resilient sphere on both golems, deal with the Lich BEFORE it dispels my spells and then wreck the rest. Seems reasonable, without a primary caster, even enemies way stronger than you will fall.

Draz74
2009-01-30, 02:58 PM
And in an anti-magic field the berserker can probably grapple him, but that puts the rest of us in charge of another 4 opponents, which is almost a guaranteed kill for the rogue, that will be flanking the ranger.

Is there a way to negate flank?

Sounds like most of the party needs to invest in +1 Greater Fortification Mithral Bucklers. 37k a pop, make you immune to Sneak Attack/critical hits. Unless you were already using a shield, there's no worries about body slot/proficiency/Arcane Spell Failure or anything like that.

The "low-budget version" with Fortification instead of Greater Fortification might be wise. It's a lot cheaper (17k a pop) and less likely to make your DM say "broken!" since 1 out of 4 Sneak Attacks will still get through.

If someone (probably the Cleric) is already using a shield, he can still make his armor +1 Fortification and then boost the enhancement bonus with Magic Vestment.

Best part is, this is really a good standard investment for almost every high-level character, so you're not only gearing up for this particular fight.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 03:09 PM
Sounds like most of the party needs to invest in +1 Greater Fortification Mithral Bucklers. 37k a pop, make you immune to Sneak Attack/critical hits. Unless you were already using a shield, there's no worries about body slot/proficiency/Arcane Spell Failure or anything like that.

The "low-budget version" with Fortification instead of Greater Fortification might be wise. It's a lot cheaper (17k a pop) and less likely to make your DM say "broken!" since 1 out of 4 Sneak Attacks will still get through.

If someone (probably the Cleric) is already using a shield, he can still make his armor +1 Fortification and then boost the enhancement bonus with Magic Vestment.

Best part is, this is really a good standard investment for almost every high-level character, so you're not only gearing up for this particular fight.

This would be very good. Except we usually don't earn money, just magic items.

It would be VERY hard to pile up that cash. The cleric already has one of those shields, but I could barely put together the money to buy a mithral buckler at ALL.

Is there a spell that does it? I know I have Ghost form, but the ranger and the barbarian are completely toast around the rogue.

There is a good chance they will be fighting inside a Freezing Fog, know that I think of it. So, NO sneak attacks for the rogue. (Is there any feat the makes it possible to sneak attack with cover?)

Anything else I could do?


Thanks for the opinions you all are giving me, it will help a lot.

mostlyharmful
2009-01-30, 03:11 PM
Any Lich, no matter how epic, will die if you destroy its phylactery.

No.

No it doesn't.

The Phylactery is the way back for a lich, it can go on just fine without one it just can't automatically come back. And any lich worth a good god damn (let alone one that makes it to Epic) will make that phylactery functionally unreachable (there's about a bajillion ways).

To the OP, Diplomacy is your friend, short of Diplo-Cheese I don't see the get out.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 03:27 PM
No.

No it doesn't.

The Phylactery is the way back for a lich, it can go on just fine without one it just can't automatically come back. And any lich worth a good god damn (let alone one that makes it to Epic) will make that phylactery functionally unreachable (there's about a bajillion ways).

To the OP, Diplomacy is your friend, short of Diplo-Cheese I don't see the get out.

Any way to restrain a Lich indefinitely without chance of error?

Hum...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about an Anti-magic fiel inside a prismatic sphere, inside a resilient sphere in a dimensional lock area. One could permanencyfy the prismatic sphere and just recast the other as needed, extended preferably.

Hum... now THAT is how you nullify a Lich!

mostlyharmful
2009-01-30, 03:41 PM
Any way to restrain a Lich indefinitely without chance of error?

Hum...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about an Anti-magic fiel inside a prismatic sphere, inside a resilient sphere in a dimensional lock area. One could permanencyfy the prismatic sphere and just recast the other as needed, extended preferably.

Hum... now THAT is how you nullify a Lich!

Cool and fudie, now get it to work on an epic level caster..... mep...:smalleek:

Draz74
2009-01-30, 03:44 PM
Is there a spell that does it? I know I have Ghost form, but the ranger and the barbarian are completely toast around the rogue..

There are a number of spells that make you immune to crits, but they tend to be either cheesy Polymorph-like spell applications, or have significant drawbacks.

Statue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/statue.htm) is an option. It doesn't say anything explicitly about crit immunity, but that seems the obvious intent to me. Your Barbarian and Ranger will be able to act normally on their turn, turn into stone as a free action at the end of their turn, and be protected during the Rogue's turn, then turn back into flesh at the beginning of their turn as a free action.

Downsides: They can't fly while they're stone, probably. They can't make AoO's while they're stone. The DM might rule that they auto-fail Reflex saves. The Rogue might ready an action to attack them as soon as they un-stone themselves.

I think Spell Compendium has some spells that are more directly correlated to the effect of Fortification, but I can't tell you which spells off the top of my head. Also, if your DM is familiar with a lot of books, worry whether the Rogue could have the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 04:09 PM
Cool and fudie, now get it to work on an epic level caster..... mep...:smalleek:

I know. But maybe he doesn't know any epic teleportation spells. Aside from that is there a way to prevent epic casting? Or a way to induce heavy Concentration checks inside an antimagic field, inside a prismatic sphere, inside a resilient sphere?

Maybe using mastery of shaping, including a small gap in the antimagic field and then summoning or teleporting something nasty inside with the sorcerer?

Adumbration
2009-01-30, 04:19 PM
I know it's overpowered, but hey, it's a CR 28 creature.

Looking through Complete Arcane, you should definitely use the spell Absorption at the start of the combat - if you're lucky, you'll gain another use of another 9th level or lower spells free of charge. Reaving Dispel seems nice as well. CArc also has some other nice buffing spells you might want to take a look at: Greater Blink, Ghostform, etc.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-30, 05:55 PM
CR 28 is too high for your characters to get any XP for killing. It should be considered beyond your characters' means, and you should just run away and avoid fighting it. Whatever evil plans of world domination it has in motion will just have to be solved by more powerful adventurers than yourselves.

Otherwise, you just find out its name, Plane Shift to the positive energy plane, cast Gate to Call the lich, it must obey you for 36 rounds so you force it to tell you the exact location of its phylactery then make it stand around until the end of the duration while you all plane shift away. It gains so many positive levels that its destroyed before the duration is even up, and you go and destroy its phylactery.

quick_comment
2009-01-30, 11:14 PM
Step 1: Get a candle of invocation....

Tomada
2009-01-30, 11:17 PM
Man I was hoping I could create a stone wall or whatever then transmute it to lava prior to forcing it into an antimagic field and all. But it doesn't work on anything but natural stone...

If I only had a giant stone thrower with me.... but it complicates too much.

I am 100% sure the DM will railroad the Lich out of my magical cage, one way or another, so I'm trying to think any constant damage spells or effects that would prevent it from using Epic spells inside the field.

These effects need to work inside the antimagic field, and can't need line of effect after they are made.