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View Full Version : [FR][3.5/4] Attn: Realms fans, please assist. (now with more pandering!)



paladin_carvin
2009-01-30, 04:09 PM
I know many Realms fans and there is one thing consistent. They hate the 4th edition Realms. I am no different. Then again, I don't know many people who like 4th edition anyway, but that is neither here nor there. I feel... a certain lacking. I can't go forward with my interest in the Realms. I don't think I'm alone in this. What would be great is to have more 3.5 source books, to continue to advance the story of the realms and flesh out the multitudes of hooks, plots and adventures in the realms.

I've decided to make that happen.

Well, not exactly of course. I can't print books (even if I wanted to) and I can't imagine getting Wizards to sell more books even if I handed the damn things to 'em. But, the internet is a large, wonderful place. So why not go there?

First off, I want to know if anyone has heard of anyone doing such a project. Even if there are some official details. I know there is the history of the realms, but that is limited and includes some of the things that make most hate 4th FR anyway. Has anyone started any concept like this online, or, short of knowing such a thing, does anyone know where to find it if it did exist. I searched google and only got book reviews and torrents.

Second, given that no such thing exists (it's likely) what is your thought on what I propose? I am thinking of building a wikia of the world, or something similar. Anybody already have ideas of any sort?

PS- If you do like 4th edition FR, please refrain from posting. That's not the point here. And, in addition, while I might have strong feelings on 4th D&D, I will not discuss that here.

hamishspence
2009-01-30, 04:12 PM
Grand History of the Realms covers the period between the Year of Risen Elfkin and the Spellplague- plenty of adventure hooks there.

I actually object more to the killing off of lots of interesting deities prior to the Spellplague, than that itself.

Morty
2009-01-30, 04:16 PM
If I understand you correctly, your idea is to make futher history of the Realms ourselves, as the official one by Wizards is tailored towards 4th edition? If so, it sounds interesting. I might give it a shot one day, I can think of some goblinoid-related plot hooks, provided noone objects to making them a bit different than they were so far.

Harperfan7
2009-01-30, 04:19 PM
There is a forgotten realms wiki. I think it would be interesting if the spellplague did happen, but not be so transparent about making 4th E changes, like getting rid of anything even mildly complicated, like oh I dont know, the freaking HARPERS!

Don't kill off the gods just for simplicity
Don't kill off entire alignments because some people just don't get it
Don't get rid of political complexity because it takes too long for newbies to immerse themselves in it

Come on Wizards, you're not even trying!

paladin_carvin
2009-01-30, 04:26 PM
See, this is exactly what I mean. I don't want to thin down the ranks. The deities and religions of FR are integral to what it is. I want to make a 3.5 where:

Mystra doesn't die. Seriously, come on people. [Helm slaying a deity that he was prepared for when she tries to rush past him makes sense (and I think it was during the time of troubles, wasn't it?). Cyric and Shar just going 'hmm, let's kill her' and it working- not so much.]
Two dozen deities aren't just dumped.
Magic doesn't get screwed up.
Toril isn't split by some weird primordial comet hit.
100 years are not just lost to winds.

Some gods dieing are dine. Lathandar being Amaunter makes sense; it's been hinted at for in many books back to AD&D. Helm being slain... maybe, but he would be reborn soon by the work of Tyr. The duel I can believe, not the 'meh, he can remain dead'.

Morty
2009-01-30, 04:33 PM
There is a forgotten realms wiki. I think it would be interesting if the spellplague did happen, but not be so transparent about making 4th E changes, like getting rid of anything even mildly complicated, like oh I dont know, the freaking HARPERS!

Don't kill off the gods just for simplicity
Don't kill off entire alignments because some people just don't get it
Don't get rid of political complexity because it takes too long for newbies to immerse themselves in it

Come on Wizards, you're not even trying!

Let's try to keep it civil, shall we?
And I think some of the gods might die, because while I like FR's huge pantheon, it's a bit too crowded. Also, I think some new gods might be needed. Namely, evil gods for elves and dwarves.

paladin_carvin
2009-01-30, 04:38 PM
WHAT??? They removed the Harpers? THE HARPERS??? -pardon me- (goes off and rants and curses in another room) I'm sorry, I'm back. That... that is just silly.

Anyway, yes, my hope is to make a new version without the spellplague or at least not so major of one. Perhaps Mystra could be injured, but to kill her right out is madness.

As for goblins, I can agree on a new direction for the goblins but there must be a change in the goblin deities. This can be divinely internal (the gods themselves change by infighting or enlightenment), species internal (a goblin or goblins chalenge the gods to change and succeed in some manner) or external in similar ways. But there must be a change at the top for their to be a change in the worshipers. A new deity is also possible. I like the idea though.

hamishspence
2009-01-30, 04:38 PM
I actually think that the 4th ed core approach of making Corellon and Sehanine Unaligned (neutral) was an interesting one. Corellon seemed to be a bit of a git in the Tome of Magic short story on Leraje the Green Herald.

4th ed Realms put them as Good, but I'd say they should be Neutral.
(maybe keep Sehanine and Selune separate)

As for dwarves, Abbathor, God of Greed, works well for evil dwarves.

FRCS 4th-Harpers- they disbanded, then rebanded :smallamused: after Netheril started rising. They are a fraction of what they were, but they still exist in Luruar (old Silver Marches)

paladin_carvin
2009-01-30, 04:56 PM
I don't blame Wizards. They made a version based on WoW mentality. This is fine, that will (and has) sold books, just like their 3rd was based on Console RPG ideas, and it worked for them too. That is business and with all of that they didn't spit on any graves or anything. It's a job, not religious interpretation; besides, the systems themselves are merely systems. The problem comes when they try to apply 4th to Forgotten Realms. It didn't work. To make it work you have to do lots of stuff to the setting. It ripped apart much of what made it good because it didn't work otherwise. But it is a +1 double edge sword of problem and fan killing. The Realms fit the edition now, but the Realms aren't really the Realms.

I think that's a fair shake.

If people like 4th edition or what not I don't care. I hope them the best. If they can enjoy the post-plague Realms, Hail Fellow Well Met. But I don't think many of the long term Realms fans can enjoy it. And I want to make, form, collaborate(and listen) and compile a continuation of what I've seen before.

Morty
2009-01-30, 05:08 PM
As for goblins, I can agree on a new direction for the goblins but there must be a change in the goblin deities. This can be divinely internal (the gods themselves change by infighting or enlightenment), species internal (a goblin or goblins chalenge the gods to change and succeed in some manner) or external in similar ways. But there must be a change at the top for their to be a change in the worshipers. A new deity is also possible. I like the idea though.

Yes, for anything to happen to goblinoids, a change "up there" is needed. Some sort of non-evil, not necessarily good, goblinoid diety has to appear. If we're speaking about making goblinoids non-evil, that is. I have several ideas for goblinoids that wouldn't change their role as evil enemies, as while I dislike this set-up, many Realms fans enjoy it.

paladin_carvin
2009-01-30, 05:38 PM
Yes, for anything to happen to goblinoids, a change "up there" is needed. Some sort of non-evil, not necessarily good, goblinoid diety has to appear. If we're speaking about making goblinoids non-evil, that is. I have several ideas for goblinoids that wouldn't change their role as evil enemies, as while I dislike this set-up, many Realms fans enjoy it.

Changes in the Realms work like this: Deity; Cleric; Church; Faithful; the People; Deity (kinda)

The deities act and the clerics have no choice by reflect it (change of domains, loss or gain of spell access... sometimes clerics can no longer get spells, but then new ones can etc). When the power (if not the leadership) of the church changes the rest of it comes with (lay ministers, church workers, church leaders that are not spell casters or otherwise given divine powers). When the church changes, the faithful (worshipers, devout and such without positions in the church positions or divine powers, those that fit the deity portfolio) which then hits the populace of all those around the faithful.

This can, of course, effect the portfolio power which changes the deity... but this is a power thing, not outlook. Still, it's worth noting. Lolth loses a bunch of followers and she is weaker. She won't change, but she is weaker. All the other changes are about outlook.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 05:41 PM
I find the current reworking of the magic system to be needlessly Byzantine and simply a money grab effort, essentially they made roughly 6 30$ books worthless for 4th Ed purposes for making a Mage, forcing use to buy the new books to figure out what arcane spells we can use. Mystra dying I found bleh as well.



At least Drizzt is still alive. And we get Dragonborn *cough* Draconians *cough* as a race.

hamishspence
2009-01-30, 05:45 PM
Lolth is weaker? As I recall she was promoted to Greater Goddess in the Silence arc, and with deities divided into Lesser and Greater in 4th ed, she's Greater.

paladin_carvin
2009-01-30, 07:48 PM
I find the current reworking of the magic system to be needlessly Byzantine and simply a money grab effort, essentially they made roughly 6 30$ books worthless for 4th Ed purposes for making a Mage, forcing use to buy the new books to figure out what arcane spells we can use. Mystra dying I found bleh as well.



At least Drizzt is still alive. And we get Dragonborn *cough* Draconians *cough* as a race.

Drizz't will die when Wolverine will die. I can't put it in exact words, but it's just as unlikely in each case.


Lolth is weaker? As I recall she was promoted to Greater Goddess in the Silence arc, and with deities divided into Lesser and Greater in 4th ed, she's Greater.

Er, this was merely hypothetical.

--
M0rt:
I didn't quite finish my point.... so I will do that here.
The God change should be something that could be effecting a region devoted to the new god. It's not unlikely that the goblin deity would be a nature deity or an ascended hero. He could also be an interloper, that is, coming from another world entirely. This method was used for many of Toril's deities; many came from Earth and from fiction. The general rule is this- a god can only come to Toril if it wouldn't be missed where it was. For this reason it can't be the Dark One. But this concept is where gods like Tyr (Norse), Mulhurandi (Egytian gods), Tiamat (Mesopotamia) and even some from from fiction, like Nobanion (Narnia).

KKL
2009-01-30, 08:05 PM
ITT: BAAAAAAAAAAW WIZARDS CHANGED FORGOTTEN REALMS IT SUCKS NOW WAAAAAAAAAH (By the way folks, FR was always terrible. Having an utterly fleshed out campaign setting is great for books, but terrible for actual RPGs, because of the seventy billion important NPCs that exist just to say "HAHA I WIN!")


Don't kill off entire alignments because some people just don't get it

Alignment was changed because it was a straitjacket on creativity and mechanics as a whole and honestly, to quantify people in nine little boxes is at best, silly. My only ire is that WotC hasn't removed alignments completely.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 08:23 PM
testing. testing testing for some reason I think 90 posts disapearred on me.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 08:25 PM
ITT: BAAAAAAAAAAW WIZARDS CHANGED FORGOTTEN REALMS IT SUCKS NOW WAAAAAAAAAH (By the way folks, FR was always terrible. Having an utterly fleshed out campaign setting is great for books, but terrible for actual RPGs, because of the seventy billion important NPCs that exist just to say "HAHA I WIN!")



Alignment was changed because it was a straitjacket on creativity and mechanics as a whole and honestly, to quantify people in nine little boxes is at best, silly. My only ire is that WotC hasn't removed alignments completely.

I liked the previous system, the thing is everything in the DMG and PHP is Guidelines, yes you can say your character is Chaotic Evil as a way to describe his actions doesnt mean him or his race is ALWAYS chaotic evil.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 08:30 PM
ITT: BAAAAAAAAAAW WIZARDS CHANGED FORGOTTEN REALMS IT SUCKS NOW WAAAAAAAAAH (By the way folks, FR was always terrible. Having an utterly fleshed out campaign setting is great for books, but terrible for actual RPGs, because of the seventy billion important NPCs that exist just to say "HAHA I WIN!")



Alignment was changed because it was a straitjacket on creativity and mechanics as a whole and honestly, to quantify people in nine little boxes is at best, silly. My only ire is that WotC hasn't removed alignments completely.

Hey hey hey they FR doesn't suck. When I make a DnD campaign I prefer my own setting or Dragonlance, so yes while Ild prefer not to use FR its because I respect the ongoing plotlines in place and the backstory to not risk newbish PCs ruining something.

Mando Knight
2009-01-30, 08:35 PM
ITT: BAAAAAAAAAAW WIZARDS CHANGED FORGOTTEN REALMS IT SUCKS NOW WAAAAAAAAAH

I think you forgot something (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks). :smallwink:

KKL
2009-01-30, 09:06 PM
I liked the previous system, the thing is everything in the DMG and PHP is Guidelines, yes you can say your character is Chaotic Evil as a way to describe his actions doesnt mean him or his race is ALWAYS chaotic evil.

Except most people think alignments are absolute and define the character, as opposed to characters defining the alignment. Arbitrary alignment requirements are also crappy.


I think you forgot something (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks). :smallwink:

I was referring to that, thanks Mando.

paladin_carvin
2009-01-30, 10:04 PM
To those thinking that I am 'Baaaaaawww'ing:

I do not care to make any 'fight'. 4th edition was designed for a different person than me and many of the people who are playing. Like every edition it was designed to be successful; I am a calculated loss. I am fine with that, I understand design. The major concern is that the story and history of the Realms, a world more documented than some small real world countries, took a drastic turn that was inconsistent with the rest of the history. There are, as it seems, a good number of people who would like more history without this odd turn. I make that exist.

More important than any other point, I am not bawing because complaints are not what I'm after. I'm not after people affirming my thoughts, I'm trying to build a new creative endeavor.

PS: 'They changed it now it sucks' only refers to adaptions, not sequels. This may not be a sequel exactly, but it's in no way an adaption. :smallwink:

Zeful
2009-01-30, 10:09 PM
I've never minded the Realms, but they were, and still are, too heavy to be used by a casual DM. I've read one Forgotten Realms book and there were almost as many references in it as there are in a dictionary. And with the hundred more books that are "Required reading" to the Realms fanboys, you practically have to dedicate your entire gaming life to it or not play it (which is an actual comment made by a Realms fanboy).

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-31, 12:13 AM
First off, I want to know if anyone has heard of anyone doing such a project.

There certainly won't be anything remotely "official" but I know some people have at least proposed setting up an unofficial "fanon" Forgotten Realms that ignores many of the events that presaged the transition to Fourth Edition. Whether any of them have actually followed through with it or not, Candlekeep is where I would look at first for this sort of project.

Personally I don't care enough about the FR enough anymore to bother, though I absolutely agree that the "Shattered Realms" as it's often called is a joke. I like 4e a lot, but it's always a mistake to try to shoehorn everything about a well-established setting into your game's new design mechanics, let alone its philosophy that's totally different from the preceding one. Hence why it looks like the designers took a map of the Realms, put it on a dart board and every place they hit with a dart got exploded.

That said, I'm glad they killed off Mystra, I hated Midnight right from the very beginning--but that doesn't mean she should've been killed off so stupidly, and then inexplicably prevented from reincarnating (for what, the third time?) into one of her little overpowered minions. The Simbul would make a great goddess of magic I think, she's easily insane enough for it and the force of magic that she represents should be raw and chaotic.

paladin_carvin
2009-01-31, 01:59 AM
There certainly won't be anything remotely "official" but I know some people have at least proposed setting up an unofficial "fanon" Forgotten Realms that ignores many of the events that presaged the transition to Fourth Edition. Whether any of them have actually followed through with it or not, Candlekeep is where I would look at first for this sort of project.

Personally I don't care enough about the FR enough anymore to bother, though I absolutely agree that the "Shattered Realms" as it's often called is a joke. I like 4e a lot, but it's always a mistake to try to shoehorn everything about a well-established setting into your game's new design mechanics, let alone its philosophy that's totally different from the preceding one. Hence why it looks like the designers took a map of the Realms, put it on a dart board and every place they hit with a dart got exploded.

That said, I'm glad they killed off Mystra, I hated Midnight right from the very beginning--but that doesn't mean she should've been killed off so stupidly, and then inexplicably prevented from reincarnating (for what, the third time?) into one of her little overpowered minions. The Simbul would make a great goddess of magic I think, she's easily insane enough for it and the force of magic that she represents should be raw and chaotic.

Hmm, I like your idea. And it would for once give respect to sorcerers.

I have now started it- I have created 'Forgotten Realms Forever', a wiki over at Wikia. You are all welcome to help. http://forgottenrealmsforever.wikia.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Forever_Wiki

Zeful: I understand. It's very massive and the fact that it is so full is a good reason to avoid it.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-31, 03:41 AM
Alignment was changed because it was a straitjacket on creativity and mechanics as a whole and honestly, to quantify people in nine little boxes is at best, silly.

Bah! S'all in the playing style. I apparently am in the minority, but I neither subscribe to the "Everyone clearly fits in an alignment box and it's really obvious what acts fall where" nor "Alignment is dumb and should be removed." Alignment is a set of guidelines, based on the cosmological forces of good, evil, chaos, and law. If people use it poorly, it's because they don't want complex moral questions in a game ("I want to kill the goblins, not do diplomacy with them!") or because they lack creativity. :smallannoyed:

Oh, and if you think FR is terrible, why are you posting here? :smallconfused: (As much as everyone is "Why am I doing this when Elminister exists?"; I'd get into a long discussion about NPCs, settings, and verisimilitude, but that'd be extremely off-topic.) I mean, I didn't see anyone going "OMG WHAA THEY DESTROYED MAH FAVORITE SETTING." Just "Ick, I don't like how they translated FR into 4.0. Any way we can keep moving throug FR history, but not following the official WotC 4.0 version of said history?" Seems a wee bit different to me.

ANYWAY: I really liked the 3.x FR, and I haven't looked at 4.0 FR, though I did hear about Mystra dying. Wasn't she already killed once or twice, and so she's actually been a couple of different individuals with her title/position or something like that? Anyway, throwing together a new history doesn't seem like it'd be too hard. Take the major pivotal points in the direction that makes sense. Personally I'm in favor of the Lathander being that old sun god. Honestly, I liked all the deities, so I'd be hard-pressed to pick a few to kill off. :smallredface: Lloth would be at the top of my list, I guess, but that's personal bias rather than that actually having any basis in what would realistically happen in the near future of the Realms.

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-31, 04:24 AM
ANYWAY: I really liked the 3.x FR, and I haven't looked at 4.0 FR, though I did hear about Mystra dying. Wasn't she already killed once or twice, and so she's actually been a couple of different individuals with her title/position or something like that?

Something like that.

The original goddess of magic in the FR was Mystryl, who was created (along with magic and the Weave) during the War of Light and Darkness when Shar threw a part of her divine essence at her sister Selune, which on impact tore off a piece of Selune and merged with it to create the new entity. For game purposes this was the stuff of creation myths, and far later, during the reign of the Netheril Empire the archmage Karsus cast a spell to make himself into the god of magic, infusing him with the Weave and robbing Mystryl of her domain--which caused a massive cataclysm.

Mystryl sacrificed herself by merging with the Weave to stabilize it due to Karsus' Folly, and was then reborn as Mystra (who was Lawful Neutral while Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral, signifying a shift toward restrictive, rules-based casting). Centuries later, during the Time of Troubles when the gods walked Faerun, Mystra's avatar was killed by Helm when she tried to return to the Outer Planes, but she had placed her divine essence into the mortal wizard Midnight, who eventually resolved the problem that had caused the deities to all be expelled and herself became the next Mystra. Unfortunately her mortal personality and rivalries (especially with Cyric) often governed her actions more than her duty to magic and that undoubtedly lead to her murder at Cyric and Shar's hands.

This stuff happens a lot in the FR. :smalltongue:


I have now started it- I have created 'Forgotten Realms Forever', a wiki over at Wikia. You are all welcome to help. http://forgottenrealmsforever.wikia.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Forever_Wiki


Good luck with it. For my part I think this is the sort of thing that should be done on an individual campaign-by-campaign basis.

In my own game--if I actually still wanted to use the FR--I would keep the 4e ruleset but throw out the whole alternate-world thing and just have Dragonborn for instance be a gambit of the Sarrukhs coming to fruition. I think the system could work fine with the setting, it doesn't need to be disrespectful of it.

Altima
2009-01-31, 04:30 AM
Spoilers abound in this.

The hardest part will be deciding on what you're going to change, what you're going to keep, and how you're going to do it.

For example, Lolth and Eilistraee, between them, killing off all the Drow deities except Ghaunador (though he's probably screwed since a large segment of his intelligent followers are now Insanity and wondering around in the Ethereal plane). How would you change that? If you acted like it never happened, then that undoes the (awful) plot device that split the Drow into Drow and Dark Elves (drow being your typical black/purple skinned evil elves, while the dark elves being the brown-skinned of early dark elf imaginings, and probably neutral).

Then there's the Thayan Civil War. Do you pretend like it never happened, and all of Thay wasn't turned into an Undead wasteland with all other living members retreating to the sea?

The easiest, and probably the most controversial decision from WotC, would be to reinstate the gods. Literally, some deities disappeared for no reason. There wasn't a book, there wasn't an explanation, they just poofed.

Possibly the simplest and easiest explanation would be to say that, well, Ao actually did his job. Cyric, with Shar's assistance, killed Mystra. The Weave was disrupted temporarily, causing all the sorts of shennanigans described in the books at the time, but Ao stepped in, revived Mystara (the first deity of magic, who was neutral and not some do-gooder hippy who messes up at every opportunity), and set about not ****ing things up. No lesser deities falling into the Hells and getting eaten by Asmodeus, no reshuffling of the planes, none of that crap.

Some of the changes in 4e are actually a good idea. I always did like the idea of Obould getting elevated to deity status for actually doing something as an orc (low expectations, weeee). I also do like the idea that most of Greenwood's (God-mode) Mary Sues are dead, or gibbering-spouting old men on porches whining about the 'good ole days'.

Others are just badly thought out, lazy, and just a general slap in the face. And, for some reason, they really, really hate the Shining South. I'm looking at you, Lantan and Chult.

paladin_carvin
2009-01-31, 01:38 PM
Spoilers abound in this.

The hardest part will be deciding on what you're going to change, what you're going to keep, and how you're going to do it.

For example, Lolth and Eilistraee, between them, killing off all the Drow deities except Ghaunador (though he's probably screwed since a large segment of his intelligent followers are now Insanity and wondering around in the Ethereal plane). How would you change that? If you acted like it never happened, then that undoes the (awful) plot device that split the Drow into Drow and Dark Elves (drow being your typical black/purple skinned evil elves, while the dark elves being the brown-skinned of early dark elf imaginings, and probably neutral).

Then there's the Thayan Civil War. Do you pretend like it never happened, and all of Thay wasn't turned into an Undead wasteland with all other living members retreating to the sea?

The easiest, and probably the most controversial decision from WotC, would be to reinstate the gods. Literally, some deities disappeared for no reason. There wasn't a book, there wasn't an explanation, they just poofed.

Possibly the simplest and easiest explanation would be to say that, well, Ao actually did his job. Cyric, with Shar's assistance, killed Mystra. The Weave was disrupted temporarily, causing all the sorts of shennanigans described in the books at the time, but Ao stepped in, revived Mystara (the first deity of magic, who was neutral and not some do-gooder hippy who messes up at every opportunity), and set about not ****ing things up. No lesser deities falling into the Hells and getting eaten by Asmodeus, no reshuffling of the planes, none of that crap.

Some of the changes in 4e are actually a good idea. I always did like the idea of Obould getting elevated to deity status for actually doing something as an orc (low expectations, weeee). I also do like the idea that most of Greenwood's (God-mode) Mary Sues are dead, or gibbering-spouting old men on porches whining about the 'good ole days'.

Others are just badly thought out, lazy, and just a general slap in the face. And, for some reason, they really, really hate the Shining South. I'm looking at you, Lantan and Chult.

1373 DR; that's the cut off date. The Dragon Rage is cleaned up and Bahamut is let loose but doesn't necessarily go on the super crusade against Tiamat. The threat of a crusade boosts both faiths. I mention this because it's the last event that happens 'canon'. The rest needs to be figured out.

Morty
2009-02-01, 08:14 AM
:smallsigh:
I knew this thread wouldn't last long without someone coming in saying that FR has always sucked and those who don't like what they've done to it in 4th edition are hysterical morons who can't cope with change. Newsflash, people: people who like FR don't think it sucks, and if you can't fathom that someone might feel differently than you or that people might, indeed, not like something being changed in a way that doesn't suit their tastes and need to dismiss them by pulling off an elitist article from a stupid website - that's your problem, not ours. And the article in question isn't even that elitist itself, it's just that it's used to label people not liking something being changed as silly(TVTropes is still a pain in the neck, though). Opening your mind a little bit doesn't hurt. Honestly. Or you can just continue feeling superior to everyone but not come in and disrupt discussions.
Well, with that out of my system, I'll get to the point: I think killing off some dieties might be a good thing, because some of them feel a bit reduntant and are often glossed over when reading the rulebook. Alternative way would be fleshing them out, but some removals are also necessary, I think.


The God change should be something that could be effecting a region devoted to the new god. It's not unlikely that the goblin deity would be a nature deity or an ascended hero. He could also be an interloper, that is, coming from another world entirely. This method was used for many of Toril's deities; many came from Earth and from fiction. The general rule is this- a god can only come to Toril if it wouldn't be missed where it was. For this reason it can't be the Dark One. But this concept is where gods like Tyr (Norse), Mulhurandi (Egytian gods), Tiamat (Mesopotamia) and even some from from fiction, like Nobanion (Narnia).

A new god arising to lead goblinoids -or some other race or nation- to a different life is a distinct possibility, yes. One of Maglubyiet's underlings could perhaps undergo a change of mind and decide that goblins' lifestyle won't lead them far, but that sounds rather forced.

Renegade Paladin
2009-02-01, 08:50 AM
ITT: BAAAAAAAAAAW WIZARDS CHANGED FORGOTTEN REALMS IT SUCKS NOW WAAAAAAAAAH (By the way folks, FR was always terrible. Having an utterly fleshed out campaign setting is great for books, but terrible for actual RPGs, because of the seventy billion important NPCs that exist just to say "HAHA I WIN!")
Congratulations, you must have a lot of time on your hands. :smallannoyed: I run the Realms, and the DM before me in the group ran the Realms, and the DMs before him on back to the founding of my present gaming group back in 2e, because it takes the drudge work out of it and lets you game. Sure, Generic World X is good for small-scale campaigns, but we have a taste for epic scale, if not epic level. The Realms are huge; you can go a lifetime adventuring in them and never meet Elminster or any of the Chosen. The powerful NPCs are there to be in the background, to remind the players that the world doesn't revolve around them, and that they're not the only ones who gain XP. Whether they actively interfere in the player characters' adventuring careers is up to the DM, and frankly it's a bad decision to do so from both in and out of character perspectives. OOC, having Storm Silverhand show up and do everything wrecks the point of the game; that's the players' job. In character, why do they care? Out of all the multitudes of adventures, threats, and problems facing the Realms every day, why would they concern themselves with one that already has (presumably) competent adventurers taking care of it? Your gripe is a wash.

I think you forgot something (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks). :smallwink:
Oh, come off it. The changes to the 4e Forgotten Realms are not cosmetic. Read your own trope; they didn't "change the football game to a horse race and cut the watermelon scene." They altered the fundamental basis of the setting in more ways than I care to count. Some of those ways don't really matter, but a lot of them? Yeah, they kind of do. If you insist on linking TV Tropes, this is a real case of adaptation decay, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdaptationDecay) not just opposition to change because it's change.

Deimos_
2009-02-01, 09:12 AM
^ This. EDIT: LOL new page. I agree with Renegade Paladin.

I must admit I really didn't like 4th changes either. Since I'm relatively new to the setting and FR Wiki was the place I went to get info on it, now that the site is adapting the articles to 4th it gets harder to know if a certain fact is valid on 3.5 or if it is part of the changes. A FR Wiki that only incorporates up to 3.5 would be really useful IMO.

But I believe OP's idea is to create an alternative timeline and not a compilation of pre-4.0 stuff. I'll check out that wiki with interest.

Athaniar
2009-02-01, 10:49 AM
For example, Lolth and Eilistraee, between them, killing off all the Drow deities except Ghaunador (though he's probably screwed since a large segment of his intelligent followers are now Insanity and wondering around in the Ethereal plane). How would you change that? If you acted like it never happened, then that undoes the (awful) plot device that split the Drow into Drow and Dark Elves (drow being your typical black/purple skinned evil elves, while the dark elves being the brown-skinned of early dark elf imaginings, and probably neutral).

This really happened? Weird stuff. Myself, however, I like both 3.5e and 4e Forgotten Realms *prepares to be attacked from two directions*. 4e has some bad things, but also good things, like Obould's ascension and Szass Tam's deathification of Thay.

Deimos_
2009-02-01, 11:01 AM
I found something that might be relevant here. http://rcjrproductions.com/35ps/index.php

hamishspence
2009-02-01, 11:06 AM
same here on liking aspects of both realms. Though my interest in the Realms began with the novels and is still partially rooted there.

Aron Times
2009-02-01, 11:42 AM
I'm one of those who would argue that the 4E Realms is Adaptation Distillation.

Regardless, you can always run a game in an alternative continuity, a parallel universe, if you will. In this universe, Mystra never died, and thus, there was never a Spellplague.

Perhaps you can run an epic campaign which ends with the party preventing Cyric from ganking Mystra. This would prevent the Spellplague altogether, and you can make this the basis for furthering the timeline.

Start small, and work your way up from there.

Talya
2009-02-01, 12:30 PM
If you could play games with Ed Greenwood, his realms metaplot diverged from the official one a while back. There are tons of adventure hooks if you look up his posts on Candlekeep, but good luck getting him to post the differences from where his Realms diverged from the official ones, due to contractual issues I'm sure.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-01, 04:22 PM
*Puts on pretend mod hat*
HEY, LISTEN!
... that sounded kinda like a faerie...
ANYWHO-
I will ask please, no more discussion of -why- 4th did this or that, why people do or do not like it, the quality of tvtropes and so on and so on... Let's boil things down and keep things to ideas about a separate timeline. Hopefully, some of you may place in some ideas at my new wiki ( forgottenrealmsforever.wikia.com ) but I'd love to hear some stuff here.

I actually hope that if the wiki becomes popular enough that 4th edition rules will be included as well with the information. I'll won't be doing that, since I don't know them, but I support the idea of people making the rules. I'm sure there are people who would like to continue in the realms without the events after 1373 DR. I don't know how hard this would be... but it sounds worthwhile.


If you could play games with Ed Greenwood, his realms metaplot diverged from the official one a while back. There are tons of adventure hooks if you look up his posts on Candlekeep, but good luck getting him to post the differences from where his Realms diverged from the official ones, due to contractual issues I'm sure.

Ooo, that does make me feel assured in my thoughts...

M0rt:
I agree... a little forced. But that or any of the ideas would be fine if it has an interesting story behind it. Oh, if you like Goblins, I suggest trying to find the Core D&D novel Wizards put out 'The Savage Caves'. It's really good at getting to the nature of goblins and their 'sin' that makes them evil: cowardice.

hamishspence
2009-02-01, 04:33 PM
Realms of Infamy short story- Vision, by Roger E. Moore, focussed on goblins.

Morty
2009-02-01, 05:03 PM
M0rt:
I agree... a little forced. But that or any of the ideas would be fine if it has an interesting story behind it. Oh, if you like Goblins, I suggest trying to find the Core D&D novel Wizards put out 'The Savage Caves'. It's really good at getting to the nature of goblins and their 'sin' that makes them evil: cowardice.

I have in fact seen this book in a bookstore, I think. After a quick skim, it seemed that goblins wouldn't really want to fight the heroes, but hobgoblins forced them to. Anyway, I'll think of something that'd make goblins different without being forced -either to create a neutral goblinoid faction or to make them more akin to drow, i.e an evil force to be actually reckoned with. I once made a Goblin Beguiler to be played in the Realms who had an ambition to make Goblins a respected race. I never managed to play him, though.

hamishspence
2009-02-01, 05:08 PM
the Bhukas in Sandstorm are a Neutral goblinoid faction.

But yes, they have had a tendency to be the goons of more powerful forces- in one of the earliest Realms novels, Akar Kessel used enslaved orcs and goblins, for example.

Roderick_BR
2009-02-01, 06:13 PM
Except most people think alignments are absolute and define the character, as opposed to characters defining the alignment. Arbitrary alignment requirements are also crappy.

So, the problem is not that the system is crappy, it's because people don't know how to use it. My groups always used the alignment system, and it was never a "straigth jacket" for our games. We create the character, and based on his personality, we check wich aligment fits it. Simple.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-04, 02:33 AM
So, the wiki is on it's way. Check it out, I'm actually quite proud of how far I've gotten.

http://forgottenrealmsforever.wikia.com

</pandering>

Even if you don't edit, tell me what'cha think.

Morty
2009-02-04, 06:21 AM
Well, during the boards switch-down, I had another idea, not goblinoid-related this time. I've heard that in one of Drizzt books Obould Many-Arrows manages to make an orc nation in the North. Whetheir it's true or not, it would be fun to implement in the setting. The way I see it, Obould would carve an orcish kingdom in the North, the exact location is yet to be specified. The tensions would be high - while many of civilized inhabitants of the North would be glad that orcish raids might become less frequent, and merchants ponder new trade options, many humans, elves and dwarves refuse to treat orcs equally as if the centuries of bloody strife never occured. Orcs are also far from agreement - some orcs support Obould in his attempt at making a powerful orcish kingdom, but many see him as weakling for dealing with elves, humans and dwarves, and would rather live as they have lived before. This faction is led by powerful priests of Gruumsh. Among Obould's supporters there are many half-orcs, who are happy to have a place to call their own.
So, what do you think?

Talya
2009-02-04, 09:20 AM
I applaud this divergent timeline wiki.

I would include all the realms official history right up until before the moment that they start killing off Drow deities. All the events up to and including War of the Spider Queen are just fine. And including the characters inside the Lady Penitent series are fine, too. I was going to say right up until the moment before Eilistraee gets killed, but then I thought about it, and killing off Selvetarm, Kiriansalee, Vaeraun, etc. were just as bad. But the setting went to hell when they decided to start remaking it just for the hell of it, undoing years of plot hooks.

Raenir Salazar
2009-02-04, 03:05 PM
I actually liked the Lady Penitent series, the imagery of Lolth finally becoming a Greater God only to be the only remaining God (of the Drow) alone in all her power. Its hard to explain.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-04, 04:11 PM
I applaud this divergent timeline wiki.

I would include all the realms official history right up until before the moment that they start killing off Drow deities. All the events up to and including War of the Spider Queen are just fine. And including the characters inside the Lady Penitent series are fine, too. I was going to say right up until the moment before Eilistraee gets killed, but then I thought about it, and killing off Selvetarm, Kiriansalee, Vaeraun, etc. were just as bad. But the setting went to hell when they decided to start remaking it just for the hell of it, undoing years of plot hooks.

Well, the cut off is 1373. This means that it is years ahead of that time. Some events I think should still happen in some way, just not so world shattering. I think there should be some battle in the Drow Pantheon... but, it shouldn't end with everyone dead. If you would like to rewrite the way that this would happen I'd fully support it.


Well, during the boards switch-down, I had another idea, not goblinoid-related this time. I've heard that in one of Drizzt books Obould Many-Arrows manages to make an orc nation in the North. Whetheir it's true or not, it would be fun to implement in the setting. The way I see it, Obould would carve an orcish kingdom in the North, the exact location is yet to be specified. The tensions would be high - while many of civilized inhabitants of the North would be glad that orcish raids might become less frequent, and merchants ponder new trade options, many humans, elves and dwarves refuse to treat orcs equally as if the centuries of bloody strife never occured. Orcs are also far from agreement - some orcs support Obould in his attempt at making a powerful orcish kingdom, but many see him as weakling for dealing with elves, humans and dwarves, and would rather live as they have lived before. This faction is led by powerful priests of Gruumsh. Among Obould's supporters there are many half-orcs, who are happy to have a place to call their own.
So, what do you think?

I've always been fascinated with Obould. I haven't read the most recent stuff, but this sounds good. But I think it's safe to say that Obould himself is not a force for the non-eviling of orc kind... though, he may be a force for non-chaoticing of orc kind. Yes, I just made evil and chaos into verbs. I would support your creation of this story.

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-05, 12:16 AM
I actually liked the Lady Penitent series, the imagery of Lolth finally becoming a Greater God only to be the only remaining God (of the Drow) alone in all her power. Its hard to explain.

I agree with one exception--Vhaeraun should be left alive for the non-female-dominated Drow societies out there, and there are some especially in Cormanthor and in the Shining South (I know, no one cares about the south :smallfrown: ). Gotta throw the guys a bone here.

Eilistraee though, ehhhhh I've never been a fan (though her followers in HotU were pretty sweet I'll admit), take her or leave her as far as I'm concerned. Good Drow may as well worship the Seldarine I think.


One thing I do approve of in the way of 4e FR's handling of the pantheons (maybe the only thing, well other than getting rid of the EgyptianMulhorandi gods) is turning all the demigods and even some lesser powers into exarchs who serve as proxies for the true gods and goddesses. They could have very easily left most of the pantheons intact this way if they'd wanted to, simplifying it in the sense that characters should pick lesser/intermediate/greater powers as their patron deity and have all their various exarchs in there as aspects/exemplars of a specific branch of the faith.

Say you're a Cleric of Tempus who favors strategy and tactics, you would have prayers answered through the Red Knight, while one who favors strength and honor would look to Uthgar, or Valkur if you're more the swashbuckling type, or Garagos if you're just into pillage and plunder. I think that'd be nice not just for flavor but even a game mechanic, such as which Channel Divinity feats you get to qualify for.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-05, 01:48 AM
I agree with one exception--Vhaeraun should be left alive for the non-female-dominated Drow societies out there, and there are some especially in Cormanthor and in the Shining South (I know, no one cares about the south :smallfrown: ). Gotta throw the guys a bone here.

Eilistraee though, ehhhhh I've never been a fan (though her followers in HotU were pretty sweet I'll admit), take her or leave her as far as I'm concerned. Good Drow may as well worship the Seldarine I think.


One thing I do approve of in the way of 4e FR's handling of the pantheons (maybe the only thing, well other than getting rid of the EgyptianMulhorandi gods) is turning all the demigods and even some lesser powers into exarchs who serve as proxies for the true gods and goddesses. They could have very easily left most of the pantheons intact this way if they'd wanted to, simplifying it in the sense that characters should pick lesser/intermediate/greater powers as their patron deity and have all their various exarchs in there as aspects/exemplars of a specific branch of the faith.

Say you're a Cleric of Tempus who favors strategy and tactics, you would have prayers answered through the Red Knight, while one who favors strength and honor would look to Uthgar, or Valkur if you're more the swashbuckling type, or Garagos if you're just into pillage and plunder. I think that'd be nice not just for flavor but even a game mechanic, such as which Channel Divinity feats you get to qualify for.

I'm not so sure I want so many Drow deities to be killed, but Lolth being left alone is an interesting point. Imprisoned, exiled, one or two killed, abdicate... hmm... some good ideas there.

I do think the idea of exarchs is interesting. I'm in full support of supplementary 4th edition rule pages; included in this would be exarch rules. Even in 3.5 deity rules a stronger bond between deities could occur without destroying the nature of the world. Of course, in general, everyone worships all the gods; they just have one patron.

Morty
2009-02-05, 07:15 AM
I've always been fascinated with Obould. I haven't read the most recent stuff, but this sounds good. But I think it's safe to say that Obould himself is not a force for the non-eviling of orc kind... though, he may be a force for non-chaoticing of orc kind. Yes, I just made evil and chaos into verbs. I would support your creation of this story.

Well, Obould himself is listed as Chaotic Evil. Also, in my plan Obould wouldn't bring the whole orcish race to civilization(sorta), he'd just create an orcish nation. Many tribes would stay as they were.

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-05, 12:38 PM
I do think the idea of exarchs is interesting. I'm in full support of supplementary 4th edition rule pages; included in this would be exarch rules. Even in 3.5 deity rules a stronger bond between deities could occur without destroying the nature of the world. Of course, in general, everyone worships all the gods; they just have one patron.

Right. One of the major reasons for wanting to pare down the sheer amount of possible choices for patron deities is Channel Divinity feats don't have the same sort of pantheon-wide applicability/universality as Domains do in 3.5. So you're stuck designing and balancing 2+ feats for each of the 100+ gods of the FR? Eh, probably not. Better I think to have just a half-dozen or so of deities for each major alignment grouping (Good/Neutral/Evil) and have all the lesser/demi-powers as exarch servitors whose path you could choose to follow in your own specialized service to your patron.

So I would boil it down to the following (you can use any of this on your site if you like):

Faerunian Gods of Good

Amaunator*, god of the Sun, Civilization, Protection and Nobility; served by Helm, Nobanion and Siamorphe.
Bahamut*, Dragonborn god of Law and Good; served by ???
Chauntea, goddess of Agriculture, Hunting and Peace; served by Eldath, Mielikki and Lurue.
Selune, goddess of the Moon, Exploration, Protection and Prophesy; served by Finder and Shaundakul.
Sune, goddess of Beauty, Love, Joy and Wealth; served by Lliira, Sharess and Waukeen.
Tyr, god of Justice, Duty and Endurance; served by Torm and Ilmater.


Faerunian Gods of Neutrality/Unaligned Gods

Kelemvor, god of Fate and the Dead; served by Jergal.
Mystryl*, goddess of Magic; served by Azuth and Savras.
Oghma, god of Wisdom, Craft and Music; served by Deneir, Gond and Milil.
Silvanus, god of Nature; served by Gwaeron, Shiallia and Ubtao.
Tempus, god of War, Strength, Tactics and Valor; served by Garagos, Red Knight, Uthgar and Valkur.
Tyche*, goddess of Fortune; alone, but represented by her opposite halves, Beshaba and Tymora.


Faerunian Gods of Evil

Asmodeus*, god of Corruption and Lies; served by the Lords of the Nine.
Bane, god of Strife, Tyranny, Hatred and Fear; served by Hoar, Loviatar and Mask.
Cyric, god of Murder and Madness; served by--are you joking? Who'd work with that idiot?
Shar, goddess of Night, Loss, Suffering and Undeath; served by Talona and Velsharoon.
Talos, god of Destruction and Storms; served by Auril, Malar and Umberlee.
Tiamat*, Dragonborn goddess of Chaos and Evil; served by ???


* denote changes from the established pantheon:

I like Lathander evolving into Amaunator again, the rising sun becoming the noonday sun and all that, making him more mature.

As I said before I don't like Midnight so I'd still go with "she dies" but have Mystra reborn into her daughter the Simbul and go back to the original Mystryl the embodiment of the mysterious, raw power of magic.

I think Fortuna is a concept that should be unified--good luck and bad luck are really just opposite sides of the same coin--so I'd have Tyche re-emerge from Beshaba and Tymora but keep those two as personalities.

Asmodeus, Bahamut and Tiamat are now core 4e deities, but that's entirely not why I chose to keep them in the FR. I think Asmodeus was plotting all along to get divine power in Faerun via Gargauth (who I think works just as well as a front for the Duke of Hell) so I think he fits, especially if there are more Tieflings. Tiamat's always been there but could be made much stronger by the emergence of Dragonborn, which would pull Bahamut into the picture to counter her I think. Not sure who their servitors would be though.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-05, 02:57 PM
Some good ideas! I'm not a total master of 4th edition rules... and I'll make sure to save this away somewhere... but I'll make some notes.

1) Mielikki is a goddess in her own right, I think. Her exarchs would be Lurue and maybe Nobanion. Maybe Finder Wyvernspur too.

2) I've not like Asmodeus what so ever. If he is a god, he would be a minor power at best. There are many evil gods already, he doesn't seem to add much.

3) I think Tiamat and Bahamut should lead the gods of the monstrous humanoids. Kurtulmak for example would serve Tiamat. There aren't many good deities of mon. humanoids that aren't aquatic (and they might better serve someone else) but there are many good dragon demigods that are part of the Realms. If Mielikki was an exatch, Lurue and Nobanion would serve Bahamut.

4) I agree with the Mystryl idea. Perhaps even Velsharoon could serve her... perhaps forced to. He still is the god of necromancy-

5) I like the Tyche idea. 'nuff said.

6) I am a person very very very fond of the deity Hoar. I would hate it for him to be evil. I would prefer the idea of him staying neutral. Bane would abuse his methods, I think, which he would never go for. Tyr has been after him for a long time too, hoping to inspire him to performing justice. Hoar may align himself with him because Tyr would let him work his own way, but gear him towards good while Hoar still accomplishes what he wants.

That's my thoughts.

Talya
2009-02-05, 11:29 PM
I actually liked the Lady Penitent series, the imagery of Lolth finally becoming a Greater God only to be the only remaining God (of the Drow) alone in all her power. Its hard to explain.

Eilistraee is stylisticly one of my favorite gods in Faerun.

I mean, her priestesses dance nude under the moonlight...that sounds like some skyclad wiccan fun.

And I despise Lolth. Leaving her as an intermediate deity bickering with the other drow gods, a pitiful excuse for a cursed god because of the treachery she attempted on the Seldarine is appropriate. I loved it how it was.

Eilistraee, the daughter of Corellon and Lolth, chose exile from the seldarine. They all welcome her back in 3.5 and earlier realmslore, but she left to try to redeem her people. Interestingly, she was successful, though 4e FR doesn't have the race of redeemed Ilythiiri that Corellon accepted back after Eilistraee's sacrifice.

Another thing I hated about what happened in that series is the killing off of Qilue; the seven sisters are great fun for plot hooks.

Vhaerun is needed too, for evil male surface drow attempting to escape the oppression of their sisters below.

In general I love FR's huge variety of gods. One thing I find impossible about Eberron is making any divine-themed character. There's just not enough variety, not enough to choose from. The more the better. The greatest crime 4e committed against FR was gutting its rich, wonderful pantheon.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-06, 01:18 PM
I think the gods are perhaps the reason why I got so attached to the realms. I love mythology and religion and Faerun has such a delightfully rich background of both.

I mean, the first FR book I bought for myself was Faiths and Pantheons...

Talya
2009-02-06, 02:56 PM
I think the gods are perhaps the reason why I got so attached to the realms. I love mythology and religion and Faerun has such a delightfully rich background of both.




Yeah, I'd have to say the same.

Gerion
2009-02-06, 04:22 PM
I think tthere Should not be such great Changes in the Phanteon to deities who are as old as Time itself.

Selune, Shar, Mystra, Chauntea, Tempus and Talos where the First Deities in exsitance and should left unchanged (expect for Mystra who could be again reincarnated)

Also gods should not be merged just to fit some feats.
Helm and Tyr could just fight to the first blood, no need to kill one outright.

For the Drow, 3 Gods are just perfect. Eilistraee, Loth and Vhaerun. They make the Faerun Drow intersting and are Part of the grand History of the Elves, the other cann be removed i think

Dyllan
2009-02-06, 04:37 PM
Except most people think alignments are absolute and define the character, as opposed to characters defining the alignment. Arbitrary alignment requirements are also crappy.

Who are these "most people" you speak of? Because, I've never met a single one of them.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-06, 05:38 PM
Yeah, I'd have to say the same.

I enjoy understanding the evil religions; or at least gaining perspective. My favorite one is Malar. There is something very understandable about Malar.

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-07, 12:33 AM
Some good ideas! I'm not a total master of 4th edition rules... and I'll make sure to save this away somewhere... but I'll make some notes.

Cool, thanks, I'll try to add some more later.


1) Mielikki is a goddess in her own right, I think. Her exarchs would be Lurue and maybe Nobanion. Maybe Finder Wyvernspur too.

Well my view is her portfolio's awfully narrow in focus to make her much more than a servant of a greater mythological concept, namely humanityintelligent beings as caretaker of the Natural World. This is Chauntea all the way, she is Nature, so she gets not just agriculture but forestry, animal husbandry, (ecologically responsible) hunting and the idea of living peacefully with your natural surroundings.

Don't get me wrong, Mielikki's definitely important to this, she's a powerful servant to this concept as the Warden of Nature who secures the boundaries and makes sure people don't take too much or cut down without replanting, but the goddess of Creation should be above her.


2) I've not like Asmodeus what so ever. If he is a god, he would be a minor power at best. There are many evil gods already, he doesn't seem to add much.

Well fair enough, though I think he's not only iconic as The Devil but also fits an important niche as Corruptor and Deceiver. Maybe Bane should have the portfolio over evil councilors and corrupt political justice systems, but he just strikes me as too much of a bully and not enough of a sly dog to pull that off properly. Cyric's too crazy anymore, Talos has all the intelligence and tact of a brick, and Shar--well now she could pull it off but that'd make her really, really powerful, way more than she already is. I'm not all that sure it fits her M.O. either, she'd just use corruption and lies to bring people down so low that they kill themselves, while an Asmodeus would use it to increase his power base.


3) I think Tiamat and Bahamut should lead the gods of the monstrous humanoids. Kurtulmak for example would serve Tiamat. There aren't many good deities of mon. humanoids that aren't aquatic (and they might better serve someone else) but there are many good dragon demigods that are part of the Realms. If Mielikki was an exatch, Lurue and Nobanion would serve Bahamut.

This is a good idea (especially if you're not gonna include Dragonborn as a core race) though Lurue shouldn't be split from Mielikki since she is her mount and all.


4) I agree with the Mystryl idea. Perhaps even Velsharoon could serve her... perhaps forced to. He still is the god of necromancy-

Yeah, which makes him still a god of magic, I know. I think he just fits better conceptually with Shar because of the Shadow Weave, which would benefit him and Necromancers so much more if they switched over to it.


6) I am a person very very very fond of the deity Hoar. I would hate it for him to be evil. I would prefer the idea of him staying neutral. Bane would abuse his methods, I think, which he would never go for. Tyr has been after him for a long time too, hoping to inspire him to performing justice. Hoar may align himself with him because Tyr would let him work his own way, but gear him towards good while Hoar still accomplishes what he wants.

Ah, well you are a paladin after all so I respect that opinion of wanting to redeem him. :smallsmile: For my part though, I'm a pacifist and I find the concept that Hoar represents--revenge--to be quite evil and not something that should be tied to justice. And Hoar hangs out in the Barrens of Doom and Despair for a reason.

paladin_carvin
2009-02-11, 02:46 PM
Cool, thanks, I'll try to add some more later.

Well my view is her portfolio's awfully narrow in focus to make her much more than a servant of a greater mythological concept, namely humanityintelligent beings as caretaker of the Natural World. This is Chauntea all the way, she is Nature, so she gets not just agriculture but forestry, animal husbandry, (ecologically responsible) hunting and the idea of living peacefully with your natural surroundings.

Don't get me wrong, Mielikki's definitely important to this, she's a powerful servant to this concept as the Warden of Nature who secures the boundaries and makes sure people don't take too much or cut down without replanting, but the goddess of Creation should be above her.

Well fair enough, though I think he's not only iconic as The Devil but also fits an important niche as Corruptor and Deceiver. Maybe Bane should have the portfolio over evil councilors and corrupt political justice systems, but he just strikes me as too much of a bully and not enough of a sly dog to pull that off properly. Cyric's too crazy anymore, Talos has all the intelligence and tact of a brick, and Shar--well now she could pull it off but that'd make her really, really powerful, way more than she already is. I'm not all that sure it fits her M.O. either, she'd just use corruption and lies to bring people down so low that they kill themselves, while an Asmodeus would use it to increase his power base.

This is a good idea (especially if you're not gonna include Dragonborn as a core race) though Lurue shouldn't be split from Mielikki since she is her mount and all.

Yeah, which makes him still a god of magic, I know. I think he just fits better conceptually with Shar because of the Shadow Weave, which would benefit him and Necromancers so much more if they switched over to it.

Ah, well you are a paladin after all so I respect that opinion of wanting to redeem him. :smallsmile: For my part though, I'm a pacifist and I find the concept that Hoar represents--revenge--to be quite evil and not something that should be tied to justice. And Hoar hangs out in the Barrens of Doom and Despair for a reason.

Sorry about the delayed response.
I can get what you are saying about Chauntea and... well, you might be right. But then there needs to be a new head of the Halflings I think. It's something to think about...
Mielikki to me is somewhat the greater God of Nature's combat and battle. Chauntea is a peaceful goddess- she isn't the goddess of peace, of course. But I think they are separate, all the same.
There already is a Corrupter deity; Gargauth- 10th lord of the nine. He is a Pit Lord too- and he's such an effective corrupter and deceiver that he fooled all nine lords in a way to let him be the tenth.
As for Hoar, you misunderstand him completely. He is about vengeance, not revenge. The difference is that vengeance is not an act of passion. Revenge is chaotic- it is never ending and serves only to ease emotions. Vengeance is justice when no system is available. It is precise and logical; it is made clear that there is a response to unlawful action even when no authority will perform justice.