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View Full Version : Okay take on this one for size. Ouroboros! Great-Great-Great Wyrm Cometary Dragon



Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 08:38 PM
Ouroboros, the Tail Devourerer, the Dragon Lord of Time CR 272

Male Great-Great-Great Wyrm Cometary Dragon

Lawful Neutral Macro-Diminutive Dragon (Extraplanar, Lawful)

Init +89, Senses Listen +398; Spot +398; Darkvision 1200 ft., Cosmic Consciousness

Aura Overwhelming Presence (8960 ft., DC 282 or die)

Languages Draconic, +55 bonus, +137 from skill ranks

AC 380, touch 109, flat-footed N/A (-64 size, +68 deflection, +13 dex, +14 dodge, +68 foresight, +271 natural); Miss Chance 50%

hp 24,393 (272d100 + 10,608 HD); DR 130/—

Immune
Normal Immunities Fire, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, nonlethal damage, ability drain or energy drain.
Magic Immunities All Mortal Magic. Epic Magic of the conjuration, enchantment, illusion, necromantic and transmutation schools.
Other Immunities Immune to all natural effects. No risk of death from massive damage. Not subject to time-based effects, and cannot be undermined by time traveling opponents.

Absorbs Cold; SR 350

Fort +245, Ref +233, Will +261

Spd 10,800 ft., fly 20,550 ft. (mach 3) (good), burrow 5,400 ft. (hardness 48 maximum), Enter Ethereal Plane at Will

Melee Bite +348/x28 (20d10+55 +20d10 chronal cold/18-20/x4), Claw +348/+348/+348/+348 (15d10+55 +15d10 chronal cold/18-20/x4)

Base Atk +272; Grp +451

Space 640 ft. ft.;Reach 425 ft. (640 ft. bite)

Atk Options Breath Weapon (100 ft. Cone of Temporal Stasis, DC 253)

Special Actions Run, Seventh Sense

Class Spells Prepared (CL 136): (6/23/22/22/22/22/21/21/21/21/27)

Cantrips — dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, light, message, ray of frost, read magic, resistance
1st — chill touch, mage armor, magic missile, shield, summon monster I
2nd — eagle’s splendor, mirror image, shatter, scorching ray, summon monster II
3rd — dispel magic, fireball, slow, summon monster III
4th — dimension door, dimensional anchor, summon monster IV, wall of ice
5th — break enchantment, cone of cold, summon monster V, wall of force
6th — chain lightning, greater dispel magic, legend lore, planar binding, summon monster VI
7th — banishment, delayed blast fireball, forcecage, prismatic spray, summon monster
8th — dimensional lock, maze, polar ray, summon monster VIII, sunburst, temporal stasis
9th — gate, meteor swarm, prismatic sphere, summon monster IX, time stop, wish
Epic — 408 Contingent Resurrection, Dire Winter, Dragon Knight (Any Color, Epic Dragons Allowed, Great-Great-Great Wyrms, No Ritual Required), Dragon Strike (Any Color, Great Wyrms, No Ritual Required), Dreamscape (Standard Action), Eclipse (Standard Action), Eidolon, Enslave, Epic Counterspell, Epic Mage Armor, Epic Repulsion, Epic Spell Reflection, Greater Ruin, Hellball (No backlash, no XP cost, deals 20d6 acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic), Kinetic Control, Let Go of Me, Living Cold (Cold Substituted Living Lightning), Lord of Nightmares, Momento Mori (works on 300 HD or lower), Nailed to the Sky (no XP cost), Peripety (Standard Action), Rain of Fire (Standard Action), Safe Time, Soul Dominion, Time Duplicate, Vengeful Gaze of God

Spell-like Abilities (CL 124):

At Will - Astral Projection, Etherialness, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Shapechange, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop
1/day - Safe Time, Time Duplicate
1/week - Dire Winter
1/year - Time Travel

Abilities Str 121 (+55), Dex 36 (+13), Con 88 (+39), Int 120 (+55), Wis 121 (+55), Cha 146 (+68)

SQ Cosmic String

Feats Organized by category:

* Combat Manuevers - Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder
* Criticals - Improved Critical (Bite, Claw), Superior Critical (Bite, Claw), Improved Critical Multiplier (Bite, Claw), Superior Critical Multiplier (Bite, Claw)
* Defense - Fast Healing x20
* Epic Spellcasting - Automatic Metamagic Capacity x32, Metamagic Freedom, Epic Spellcasting
* Movement - Ether Goer, Underwalker, Improved Initiative, Superior Initiative, Run
* Natural Attack - Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack (Bite, Claw), Superior Natural Attack (Bite, Claw), Weapon Focus (Bite, Claw), Epic Weapon Focus (Bite, Claw)
* Metamagic Empower, Enlarge, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Widen Spell

Skills All Strength, Intellegence, and Wisdom Skills +398, All Dexterity Skills +356, All Constitution Skills +382, All Charisma Skills +411
edit History and Description

According to Plato, the Ouroboros was the first living being in the universe, an immortal, perfectly constructed being. This is not entirely accurate.

The Ouroboros is a Demiurge, a part of the universe itself. The Phoenix's legends say that the Ouroboros represents the Milky Way, a band that stretches in a circle around the entire world. But in truth, it isn't just the physical world he surrounds, it's the temporal world as well. Ouroboros exists in at least 5 dimensions, if not more. Ouroboros is considered to BE time itself. Killing him is impossible without destroying all of time itself (which is also impossible). Imprisoning him would freeze all time in the universe he resides in.

For those that encounter Ouroboros, he appears as a massive snake with heads at both ends, and two claws for each head. Perfectly white in color, Oroboros radiates deadly X-Rays, which contribute to the Dragon's Overwhelming Presence.
edit Details
[edit] Traits

Divine Rank (Su): Ouroboros has a Divine Rank of 68, qualifying him as a Demiurge. He adds his divine rank as a foresight bonus to armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance. This has already been factored in the stats above.

Cosmic Consciousness: The senses of Ouroboros extend to the borders of the current universe he inhabits, although he cannot see around corners or through opaque objects.
[edit] Offense

Breath Weapon (Su): Each of Ouroboros' twin heads can breathe a cone of temporal stasis that freezes all targets who fail a Reflex save (DC 253) for 14 rounds. Targets who successfully save are treated as if slowed for 14 rounds instead. Opponents frozen in this manner can only be attacked by creatures immune to the effects of time, including Ouroboros himself. However, once affected by this breath weapon an, opponent is immune to subsequent temporal breath attacks until the initial effect wears off. Each of Ouroboros' twin heads must wait 1d2 rounds before using the breath weapon again.

Chronal Displacement (Su): The scales of the Ouroboros give off a bioluminescence which acts exactly like a displacement effect. However this seeming radiation is actually the absorption of the local time. Anyone grappling with, or being struck by Ouroboros’s natural weapons suffers an additional amount of chronal cold damage equal to the base damage dice of the attack. Half of ths damage is chronal based, the other half cold based. If Ouroboros scores a critical hit with his natural weaponry this damage is also doubled.

Overwhelming Presence (Ex): Ouroboros’s overwhelming presence effects all within 8960 ft (1.7 miles) whenever he attacks, charges, or merely flies overhead. All creatures failing a will save (DC 282) die of fright, those who successfully save are treated as shaken (but with a -4 morale penalty to rolls) and sickened. Only creatures wholy immune to fear cannot be shaken by this effect, and only creatures immune to radiation cannot be sickened by this effect.

Time Folding (Su): When making a full attack the cometary dragon gains an additional attack for every age category. This is akin to the haste spell, however the effect stacks with itself. This also grants a +1 bonus to attack rolls; armor class (dodge bonus) and Reflex saves per age category.

Transtemporal (Time): Ouroboros can travel freely in time. Beings without the Slipstream ability are granted no actions against Ouroboros, as he attacks them in the past. Beings with the Slipstream ability can act against Ouroboros, however, Ouroboros still gains triple actions against such opponents; simultaneously acting from the immediate past, present and future. Ouroboros acts normally against foes that also posess the Transtemporal ability.
[edit] Defense

Energy Absorption (Su): Ouroboros is not merely immune to cold, it heals him, just like positive energy heals mortals.

Interdimensional (Ex): Ouroboros exists just as much in the space between dimensions. When targeted with an attack or spell, Ouroboros has a base 50% chance of avoiding the attack. This 50% miss chance is in addition to miss chances granted by any other effect.

Seventh Sense (Ex): Ouroboros can replay 68 rounds per day. When he replays a round, everyone else uses the same actions, whereas he can change his actions based on the knowledge of what they are going to do. He can only replay a given round once before the time stream becomes too muddied and confused. The Slipstream does not defend against this ability. Other beings with Seventh Sense can replay their actions (within normal initiative order) along with Ouroboros if they choose to use one of their uses per day.

Slipstream (Ex): Ouroboros is immune to time-based effects and cannot be undermined by time travelling opponents. Ouroboros is always able to act during Time Stop spells, even if he was not the originator of the spell.
Transmortality (Entropy): Ouroboros is truely immortal and cannot be permanently destroyed, even by beings of a higher divine status. If brought to the point of death, Ouroboros is reborn 1d10 hours later. During this time, he is vulnerable to imprisonment.

Take him on. :)

xanaphia
2009-01-30, 08:42 PM
Is the only point of this guy to own everything?

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 08:50 PM
there is always a bigger fish.

Myou
2009-01-30, 08:51 PM
I have to admit, I don't see the point of the creature. ^^;

RTGoodman
2009-01-30, 08:55 PM
there is always a bigger fish.

Did someone call the Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html)?


Seriously, though, without looking at the whole statblock, SOMEBODY'S gonna come up with a Wizard/Incantatrix/IotSFV or something that can destroy it from ECL 20. (Or less.)

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 08:58 PM
assuming no Pun-Pun (and even then might now be enough thanks to time travel) I'm not sure they can, im curious though.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 09:00 PM
I have to admit, I don't see the point of the creature. ^^;

Its exactly how I'ld think a Dragon God of Time thats been around since time began would look :)

Myou
2009-01-30, 09:06 PM
Its exactly how I'ld think a Dragon God of Time thats been around since time began would look :)

No no, you're thinking of Pun-Pun there, this is just what Pun-Pun kills when he goes hunting with a toothpick. ;D

Prak
2009-01-30, 09:10 PM
You don't need pun pun to beat this crap. the most outrageous stuff from IHB has already been gone over, and you just need a vaguely high level caster (read: level 15 or so) to beat the neutronium golem.

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48681&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=immortals+handbook&start=25

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-30, 09:24 PM
Ouroboros can annihilate any being without Slipstream-even Pun Pun-because he attacks them in the past. A kobold can't even try to become a Pun Pun because Ouroboros will attack before he does.

That said, a greater deity with the slipstream ability could harm him, if not kill him.

chiasaur11
2009-01-30, 09:27 PM
Ouroboros can annihilate any being without Slipstream-even Pun Pun-because he attacks them in the past. A kobold can't even try to become a Pun Pun because Ouroboros will attack before he does.

That said, a greater deity with the slipstream ability could harm him, if not kill him.

Pun-Pun can give himself slipstream.

Retroactively.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 09:38 PM
Pun Pun cant give himself slipstream retroactively as held be killed before he could do it. Ouroboros can replay the last 68 rounds, the minute Pun Pun tries to give himself slip stream Ouroboros can stop time, replay several rounds and crush him.

jcsw
2009-01-30, 10:05 PM
Cosmic Consciousness: The senses of Ouroboros extend to the borders of the current universe he inhabits, although he cannot see around corners or through opaque objects.

1. I don't see anything about other universes. Research epic spell called Universe Shift. Do all your plotting there.

2. Since he is said to exist in "Probably five" dimensions we can assume that the actual number he exists in is a finite number.
Since there are infinite dimensions, you can also research dimension shift, to alter your three (three or more, really, depends if we're talking about time and probability here) dimensions. Better yet, do both.

3. Utilize doublethink so he can't figure out what your intentions were.

Myou
2009-01-30, 10:15 PM
Take him on. :)

Well why not, eh?


Hubert, the Chartered Accountant, the Assistant-Supervisor of Frank, the Junior Accountant, CR: Infinite.

Male Chartered Accountant

Lawful Neutral Medium Accountant

Init: +0

Languages: Common.

AC 0

HP 1

Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0

Spd 30 ft.

Base Attack: None.

Space 5 ft, Reach 5 ft.

Boring (Ex): Hubert is so boring that he does not need to eat, breathe or sleep. Hubert is so boring that he cannot ever be harmed or even interacted with or affected in any way by anything, because that might be interesting. He is so boring that nothing can ever even contemplate acting against him and any creature other than him, energy, matter, god or other that exists, has existed, or might think about existing in the future instantly ceases to be and never was in the first place. No ability can grant immunity or resistance to this effect. No, not even that one.

According to Plato, Hubert was the first employee the company ever hired, an immortal, perfectly constructed accountant. This is not entirely accurate.

Hubert is universe-endingly boring. The company's legends say that he is the physical embodiment of all boredom in the Milky Way. But in truth, it's nothing so interesting. Hubert's just really really dull. Killing him is impossible because that would be interesting. Imprisoning him would also be far too exciting.

For those that encounter Hubert, he appears with a massive desk, with two pile of papers, held in in-boxes at both ends, and two pens, one for each pile. Perfectly grey in color, his suit radiates deadly Boredom-Rays, which are really just so so dreary.

This may not be a totally serious suggestion and should not be taken seriously. xD

Now how about some slightly more reasonable abilities in future, instead of just "Win: This creature wins D&D. No save."? :3

D&D is a game of strengths and weaknesses, rock-paper-scissors, every creature has weaknesses and vulnerabilities, or should have at the least, otherwise it's not really D&D anymore. D:

I blame the tarrasque, he started this. >.>


Just my 2(smallest denomination coin available).

chiasaur11
2009-01-30, 10:21 PM
Pun Pun cant give himself slipstream retroactively as held be killed before he could do it. Ouroboros can replay the last 68 rounds, the minute Pun Pun tries to give himself slip stream Ouroboros can stop time, replay several rounds and crush him.

No.
Pun-Pun has a team of invincible mini Pun-Puns watching all of time from an inaccessible dimension outside of the timestream, in addition to the fact he gives himself powers retroactively.

And then there's singular enemy, which says nobody but Pun-Pun can hurt Pun-Pun, ever. And his infinite rank Overdeity status.


... Man, this is a silly discussion.

Myou
2009-01-30, 10:24 PM
... Man, this is a silly discussion.

Yeah, Hubert owns all.

Frosty
2009-01-30, 10:35 PM
I think we need a Diplomancer...

Vizen
2009-01-30, 10:41 PM
I swear I read a book once with Ouroboros in it. I can't remember what it was called, but some dude managed to kill the fella. xD

chiasaur11
2009-01-30, 10:49 PM
Yeah, Hubert owns all.

Probably.

Wait. Couldn't one just wait for the stupid dragon to finish eating himself?

I mean, Hubert could do it. Herbie Popernecker (currently in treasury from Darkhorse) and Rex the Wonderdog from DC would probably finish him off before then. They're men (Or more accurately, a boy and a dog) of action.

Alleine
2009-01-30, 11:04 PM
Hubert is my new favorite creature ever.

JeminiZero
2009-01-30, 11:04 PM
Pun Pun cant give himself slipstream retroactively as held be killed before he could do it. Ouroboros can replay the last 68 rounds, the minute Pun Pun tries to give himself slip stream Ouroboros can stop time, replay several rounds and crush him.

Thats assuming of course that Pun Pun walked up to Ouroboros, started a fight, and then gave himself slipstream. If the kobold gave himself slipstream way before the fight, then that doesn't work so well.

As far as I can tell, to beat it you need to have access to at least Slipstream, so that Ouroboros can't travel to the past to unmake your parents or some crap like that. And since Slip Stream appears to be a custom ability just for ouroboros, you would need some sort of serious cheese to access it (manipulate form, or no component/cost Simulacrum).

Lets start with Simulacrum (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Simulacrum). This thing has 272 HD, so you need caster level of 136 to copy it (the cheese required to boost caster levels so high is beyond the scope of this essay). You probably need an epic dweomerkeeper for supernatural spell, to craft it without cost.

Having your own ouroboros copy has the added advantage that when you do bring down ouroboros, the universe won't collapse on itself, rather, your copy ouroboros can replace/displace the original and keep the universe running. Cutting off original ouroboros from the universe might arguably also remove his source of power, preventing him from being reborn. The replacement procedure probably requires an extra epic ritual, but its nothing our epic Dweomerkeeper can't handle with his legion of solars. Congratulations, you now control time itself.

Which brings us to the question of how to help copy ouroboros win the fight against its original. It is possible to use other spells to buff copy ouroboros until it is powerful enough to bury its original in a straight melee fight. A few points stand out.

-Both have Epic Spell Reflection (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Epic_Spell_Reflection), which stops anything non-epic. Our greater concern are therefore the epic spells.
-There are a few SoD abilities, like Momento Mori, Enslave, and Soul Dominion, but the Ouroboros is immune to these via his epic magic immunities.
-But there are many other abilities which simply deal damage, again with SR, which leave our copy at a disadvantage.
-Epic Repulsion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Epic_Repulsion): Copy Ouroboros has half the caster level and SR of original, so if both drop epic repulsion, the copy is bound to lose.
-Most of these abilities can be blocked by SR, so ideally we would want boost our copy ouroboros SR to levels so high that the original cannot overcome it, or else we want it to gain outright magic immunity.
-Other than that, to win a straight melee, our copy ouroboros has to be buffed with massively amplified HP, saves, immunities, attack bonus and/or damage. Or else some spell/ability that renders it invulnerable to the original's attacks will also work.

The easiest way to achieve both of the above is to have our copy permanently fusion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fusion) with another monster with both properties. My own Emerald Legionnaires (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) will work, although I am sure you can think of other monsters that will do the trick as well. The permanent is important, as it allows you to wait a few days before going off to face the original, then he can't use his to Seventh Sense to go back before you execute fusion. You can make it permanent either through incarnate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Incarnate), or by enchanting some item. Preferably a Riverine Item, so that it can't be sundered.

Just my 2 cents.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 11:05 PM
No.
Pun-Pun has a team of invincible mini Pun-Puns watching all of time from an inaccessible dimension outside of the timestream, in addition to the fact he gives himself powers retroactively.

And then there's singular enemy, which says nobody but Pun-Pun can hurt Pun-Pun, ever. And his infinite rank Overdeity status.


... Man, this is a silly discussion.

No. Pun-Pun was BORN as a Mortal, nothing can change that fact, no matter how strong infinitely he can be it doesn't change the fact that at some point there WAS a beginning, and for a being that IS time it can attack from past, present and from the future there is no denying this on any level of thought for as long as there was a beginning for any being of power and a proper cause and effect there is no way even for Pun-Pun to fight a creature that can shape time to its will, if there is a solid point in time that PunPun could try to give itself the ability to slupstream it will not, cannot because Ouroboros simply needs to go back in time before that moment, 1 round before that moment and kill him.

Myou
2009-01-30, 11:11 PM
Hubert is my new favorite creature ever.

Why thank you! ^^

He's available for children's parties.

Alleine
2009-01-30, 11:12 PM
Why thank you! ^^

He's available for children's parties.

That's horrible! That would be the worst party ever! :smalltongue:

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 11:13 PM
Thats assuming of course that Pun Pun walked up to Ouroboros, started a fight, and then gave himself slipstream. If the kobold gave himself slipstream way before the fight, then that doesn't work so well.

As far as I can tell, to beat it you need to have access to at least Slipstream, so that Ouroboros can't travel to the past to unmake your parents or some crap like that. And since Slip Stream appears to be a custom ability just for ouroboros, you would need some sort of serious cheese to access it (manipulate form, or no component/cost Simulacrum).

Lets start with Simulacrum (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Simulacrum). This thing has 272 HD, so you need caster level of 136 to copy it (the cheese required to boost caster levels so high is beyond the scope of this essay). You probably need an epic dweomerkeeper for supernatural spell, to craft it without cost.

Having your own ouroboros copy has the added advantage that when you do bring down ouroboros, the universe won't collapse on itself, rather, your copy ouroboros can replace/displace the original and keep the universe running. Cutting off original ouroboros from the universe might arguably also remove his source of power, preventing him from being reborn. The replacement procedure probably requires an extra epic ritual, but its nothing our epic Dweomerkeeper can't handle with his legion of solars. Congratulations, you now control time itself.

Which brings us to the question of how to help copy ouroboros win the fight against its original. It is possible to use other spells to buff copy ouroboros until it is powerful enough to bury its original in a straight melee fight. A few points stand out.

-Both have Epic Spell Reflection (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Epic_Spell_Reflection), which stops anything non-epic. Our greater concern are therefore the epic spells.
-There are a few SoD abilities, like Momento Mori, Enslave, and Soul Dominion, but the Ouroboros is immune to these via his epic magic immunities.
-But there are many other abilities which simply deal damage, again with SR, which leave our copy at a disadvantage.
-Epic Repulsion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Epic_Repulsion): Copy Ouroboros has half the caster level and SR of original, so if both drop epic repulsion, the copy is bound to lose.
-Most of these abilities can be blocked by SR, so ideally we would want boost our copy ouroboros SR to levels so high that the original cannot overcome it, or else we want it to gain outright magic immunity.
-Other than that, to win a straight melee, our copy ouroboros has to be buffed with massively amplified HP, saves, immunities, attack bonus and/or damage. Or else some spell/ability that renders it invulnerable to the original's attacks will also work.

The easiest way to achieve both of the above is to have our copy permanently fusion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fusion) with another monster with both properties. My own Emerald Legionnaires (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) will work, although I am sure you can think of other monsters that will do the trick as well. The permanent is important, as it allows you to wait a few days before going off to face the original, then he can't use his to Seventh Sense to go back before you execute fusion. You can make it permanent either through incarnate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Incarnate), or by enchanting some item. Preferably a Riverine Item, so that it can't be sundered.

Just my 2 cents.

Depending on what his portfolio is and what is meant by not being able to see around corners Ouroboros can almost certainly perceive any being attempt the above before they even do it and snuff it out.

Alleine
2009-01-30, 11:16 PM
what is meant by not being able to see around corners

I'm pretty sure it means all he's got is eyes. Eyes that see pretty dang far, but only in a straight line. Seems pretty plain to me.

Myou
2009-01-30, 11:16 PM
That's horrible! That would be the worst party ever! :smalltongue:

Don't worry, he's far too boring to actually show up to them. xD



Maybe I should stat-out Frank too....

Frosty
2009-01-30, 11:17 PM
This dragon has a beginning as well. Just need to find some other being who got Slipstream and time travel abilities before this uber dragon, and convince it that Ouroboros is a threat to its supremacy. This being will then go back in time andprevent Ouroboros from being born or whatever.

Go to another universe if needed to find such a being.

Alleine
2009-01-30, 11:22 PM
Maybe I should stat-out Frank too....

Do it! Do it!

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 11:22 PM
If he encircles the whole Universe and resides within several dimensions he can probably see a little better then this would at first seem as being disadvantaged.

Also 68 divine ranks, 16-20 represents Greater Deities like Mystra or Paladine, 21+ are are Lord Ao or the High God or more, this should imply a certain degree of perception to allow it see wannabe Pun Puns try to do some of those tricks neh?

" Hmm looks like Pun Pun Generation XIXIXIXIXIXXXTGAVX is attempting to gain Slipstream again, sigh better go strangle him when he was still an infant. "

*TARDIS sounds*

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-30, 11:25 PM
This dragon has a beginning as well. Just need to find some other being who got Slipstream and time travel abilities before this uber dragon, and convince it that Ouroboros is a threat to its supremacy. This being will then go back in time andprevent Ouroboros from being born or whatever.

Go to another universe if needed to find such a being.

Assuming that there WAS a beginning without Ouroboros, if hes considered to BE the physical manifestation of Time itself what came before time?

Nohwl
2009-01-30, 11:27 PM
This dragon has a beginning as well. Just need to find some other being who got Slipstream and time travel abilities before this uber dragon, and convince it that Ouroboros is a threat to its supremacy. This being will then go back in time andprevent Ouroboros from being born or whatever.

Go to another universe if needed to find such a being.

the omniscifer?

JeminiZero
2009-01-30, 11:33 PM
I'm pretty sure it means all he's got is eyes. Eyes that see pretty dang far, but only in a straight line. Seems pretty plain to me.


If he encircles the whole Universe and resides within several dimensions he can probably see a little better then this would at first seem as being disadvantaged.

The text specifies that he can't see through opaque objects. So performing your little scheme in a room is sufficient to block his sight


Also 68 divine ranks, 16-20 represents Greater Deities like Mystra or Paladine, 21+ are are Lord Ao or the High God or more, this should imply a certain degree of perception to allow it see wannabe Pun Puns try to do some of those tricks neh?

Firstly, for all their power, Gods in D&D are not totally ominiscent, as testified by the fact that many have died (e.g. in the 4th edition apocalypse). Yes they can scry far and wide, but not everywhere at the same time.

Secondly, you are presuming that the Pun Pun's are in the same universe as the Ouroboros, which need not be true. Anything powerful enough to go up against something like this, will almost certainly be powerful enough to shift across the multiverse.

Tomada
2009-01-30, 11:38 PM
as pointed out, if pun-pun was in his living room when giving himself slipstream, Ouroboros could do nothing to it.

And if all this I will go back and kill it was true, there would be only ONE god, not a thousand, because the first to achieve sliptream status would slay the others before they were even formed....

Arbitrarity
2009-01-30, 11:45 PM
Also, this thing only exists in one universe. D&D cosmology is already a Multiverse. (or Mortiverse). You can't strangle something out of your cosmology, or so it seems.

Anyways, relying on "Pun-Pun can actually be started by a player, therefore he has a beginning" is dumb. I could as easily argue Pun-Pun created the Universe, and all creatures, including time, within it. Ooooh. What a valid argument.

Frosty
2009-01-30, 11:51 PM
Assuming that there WAS a beginning without Ouroboros, if hes considered to BE the physical manifestation of Time itself what came before time?

Beginning of THIS universe. Plenty of others to travel to.

chiasaur11
2009-01-30, 11:53 PM
Beginning of THIS universe. Plenty of others to travel to.

Not to mention the possibility of stable time loop fun.

Nohwl
2009-01-30, 11:58 PM
how much is massive damage? what does it cap out at before he is immune to it?

Alleine
2009-01-31, 12:00 AM
how much is massive damage? what does it cap out at before he is immune to it?

I would assume it's similar to the undead trait of being immune to death by massive damage.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-31, 12:07 AM
Anyways, relying on "Pun-Pun can actually be started by a player, therefore he has a beginning" is dumb. I could as easily argue Pun-Pun created the Universe, and all creatures, including time, within it. Ooooh. What a valid argument.

But... he has a fixed origin. Before he was Pun-Pun, he was a puny mortal first-(or possibly fourth)-level kobold with no real means of defense prior to his Rite of Ascension. That's what Pun-Pun is; he's a pathetic kobold who via wishcheese and Sarrukhery manages to attain REAL ULTIMATE POWER. You can say that no one could deal with Ao or the Illithid Empire like that, but there was a time before Pun-Pun.

chiasaur11
2009-01-31, 12:10 AM
But... he has a fixed origin. Before he was Pun-Pun, he was a puny mortal first-(or possibly fourth)-level kobold with no real means of defense prior to his Rite of Ascension. That's what Pun-Pun is; he's a pathetic kobold who via wishcheese and Sarrukhery manages to attain REAL ULTIMATE POWER. You can say that no one could deal with Ao or the Illithid Empire like that, but there was a time before Pun-Pun.

Not if he gives himself an ability to guarantee stable time loop.

But in the version I hears, he was at least a Paladin. A very, very smart paladin. That's not much defense, but it is a little.

Aron Times
2009-01-31, 12:15 AM
Meh... Haruhi pwns both Pun-Pun and this guy.

RTGoodman
2009-01-31, 12:22 AM
I swear I read a book once with Ouroboros in it. I can't remember what it was called, but some dude managed to kill the fella. xD

Umm... Norse mythology? And Thor? :smalltongue:

FMArthur
2009-01-31, 12:24 AM
I'm sorry, but Ouroboros is time. He may not be able to monitor everything, but it's not an especially challenging divination to find out if something will become a threat in the future because the future self shares its consciousness with its past self.

chiasaur11
2009-01-31, 12:25 AM
Meh... Haruhi pwns both Pun-Pun and this guy.

Probably, but Pun-Pun's n+10 wisdom means he KNOWS not to make her mad.

And infinite diplomacy means he might be able to talk his way out of trouble.

Frosty
2009-01-31, 12:32 AM
But Kyon probably will take offense to something this dragon does. And we all know who is able to influence Haruhi the most...

Nohwl
2009-01-31, 12:39 AM
ok. i think ive got something.maybe. im still working on the immune to mortal spells part. unless i can bypass it with a supernatural ability or a spell like ability. but i dont think i can. maybe if i picked a race that didnt die of natural causes.

pick a race thats immortal. doesnt matter what one. youre going to be some combination of wizard and cancer mage.

teleport onto it, with a contingency worded to go off the instant you appear. the contingency casts a maximized twinned shivering touch(you probably have some metamagic reducers on it). its ability damage, so its not immune. that would drop it to less than 0 dex. you want to have levels of cancer mage and you want the disease festering anger. only the penalties of the disease are negated, so the increase to strength keeps working. you want to attack it at a point where you are strong enough to deal good damage to it, but not strong enough to hit the damage cap from massive damage. start poking it with a dagger until its dead.

the problem i see is hitting its touch ac, and making the spell work.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 12:42 AM
I'm sorry, but Ouroboros is time. He may not be able to monitor everything, but it's not an especially challenging divination to find out if something will become a threat in the future because the future self shares its consciousness with its past self.

Quoted for Truth.


The issue is once Pun Pun gets slipstream he is conceivably immune from being attacked in the Past, the question is I am trying to argue that there is no way for Pun Pun to actually give itself this ability, the question is can Ouroboros detect the attempt before he can do it.

Secondly people not every setting assumes the Great Wheel Cosmology nor is "universe" defined well here, since Ouroboros resides in at LEAST 5 Dimensions which I think trumps Universe it could be argued he probably circles the Great Wheel since time exists in all Planes.

This is the only problem I see with the creature as created where he resides ala the Great Wheel as per 3.5 DnD isn't defined, it probably makes most sense that he encircles the entire wheel.

chiasaur11
2009-01-31, 12:43 AM
But Kyon probably will take offense to something this dragon does. And we all know who is able to influence Haruhi the most...

Neutral good, infinite wis and cha...

Probably would, come to think. Being too perfect does have drawbacks. Heh.

Of course, Herbie Popknecker could take the whole SoS, double P, and the loser star of this thread down with one bop. Women want him, men want to be him, Satan wets his pants at mention of the name...

All he needs is his lollipop.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 12:44 AM
ok. i think ive got something.maybe. im still working on the immune to mortal spells part. unless i can bypass it with a supernatural ability or a spell like ability. but i dont think i can. maybe if i picked a race that didnt die of natural causes.

pick a race thats immortal. doesnt matter what one. youre going to be some combination of wizard and cancer mage.

teleport onto it, with a contingency worded to go off the instant you appear. the contingency casts a maximized twinned shivering touch(you probably have some metamagic reducers on it). its ability damage, so its not immune. that would drop it to less than 0 dex. you want to have levels of cancer mage and you want the disease festering anger. only the penalties of the disease are negated, so the increase to strength keeps working. you want to attack it at a point where you are strong enough to deal good damage to it, but not strong enough to hit the damage cap from massive damage. start poking it with a dagger until its dead.

the problem i see is hitting its touch ac, and making the spell work.


What happens when he does Time Stop the instant in time your atoms begin materialize and breaths his breath weapons where you'd appear?

The Glyphstone
2009-01-31, 12:46 AM
Time Stop Does Not Work That Way?

Nohwl
2009-01-31, 12:48 AM
What happens when he does Time Stop the instant in time your atoms begin materialize and breaths his breath weapons where you'd appear?

wouldnt that miss because im not there yet?

Alleine
2009-01-31, 12:49 AM
that would drop it to less than 0 dex

Hell, this is all you really need. Especially if you can keep it this way for awhile. 0 dex means paralyzed, paralyzed means no more actions. No more actions means, well that part is kinda obvious.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 12:49 AM
Ild think that simply breathing a breath weapon while time is stopped in the direction an enemy is about to appear and then let time resume as he finishes materializing would work as Time Stop is written.

But even then the minute the person arrived he can replay the last 68 rounds and then do as above.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 12:51 AM
Hell, this is all you really need. Especially if you can keep it this way for awhile. 0 dex means paralyzed, paralyzed means no more actions. No more actions means, well that part is kinda obvious.

Don't Gods not need dex to cast spells or use their abilities? And aren't deities immune to ability drain?

Nohwl
2009-01-31, 12:52 AM
time is stopped. the breath weapon would be used during the period when time is stopped. it would go right through where i was about to appear. then i would appear when time resumed.

edit: ability damage is different from ability drain. im dealing ability damage.

Alleine
2009-01-31, 12:53 AM
Relevant information!


While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell

The Glyphstone
2009-01-31, 12:54 AM
He does not have the Lingering Breath metabreath feat that I can see, so it wouldn't have any effect that way.

But honestly, what exactly is the point of this? I could do just the same by challenging the Playground to beat the following statblock:



Iwinnnium Golem
Medium Construct

Wins (Ex): An Iwinnium Golem automatically wins any fight. This ability cannot be duplicated or overridden. Should an ability exist that can duplicate or override this ability, it will be nullified.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 12:56 AM
Apparently Shivering Touch is [Cold] Based, Ouroboros I would think would either be Immune to this or Empower/buffed by this.

I should also notice that Shivering Touch is conceivably the most unbalancing and overpowered spell in the game.

Nohwl
2009-01-31, 12:57 AM
actually i have a plan for a creature like that one too.

you erase your character sheet. you roll a d20. no matter what it is, you say "i killed it". when you are asked how, tell them to figure it out.

edit: and you can change the type of energy shivering touch does.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 12:58 AM
He does not have the Lingering Breath metabreath feat that I can see, so it wouldn't have any effect that way.

But honestly, what exactly is the point of this? I could do just the same by challenging the Playground to beat the following statblock:

I believe I answered this in the Teratoid tarrask Thread. Please if you do not wish to contribute do not post.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 12:59 AM
actually i have a plan for a creature like that one too.

you erase your character sheet. you roll a d20. no matter what it is, you say "i killed it". when you are asked how, tell them to figure it out.

edit: and you can change the type of energy shivering touch does.

Now your just being a tad childish.

FMArthur
2009-01-31, 01:13 AM
actually i have a plan for a creature like that one too.

you erase your character sheet. you roll a d20. no matter what it is, you say "i killed it". when you are asked how, tell them to figure it out.

edit: and you can change the type of energy shivering touch does.

The bolded part is the only successful part of your plan.

chiasaur11
2009-01-31, 01:15 AM
He does not have the Lingering Breath metabreath feat that I can see, so it wouldn't have any effect that way.

But honestly, what exactly is the point of this? I could do just the same by challenging the Playground to beat the following statblock:

As I said, there you go get Herbie Popnecker or REX THE WONDERDOG.

If they can't solve a problem, it isn't a problem. It's a boon you should appreciate.

Nohwl
2009-01-31, 01:15 AM
i was talking about the golem for that other plan. once you throw something that cant be killed ever, no matter what, it sorta stops being a game.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-31, 01:28 AM
I believe I answered this in the Teratoid tarrask Thread. Please if you do not wish to contribute do not post.

Actually, I don't believe that you did - I hadn't read that thread yet, but the Teratoid Tarrasque doesn't even have a Breath Weapon, let along the Lingering Breath feat. If you want feedback, don't be snide, and do read your own threads.

If you won't want feedback, my question stands - what's the point? You've yet to make a post in this thread that varies significantly from the following format:





Build X, Plan Y

You: Oroborous goes back in time and kills you before your plan can start.


Maybe you didn't notice, but the Immortals Handbook isn't of any use for actual play - everything in it is just a variant of the Iwinnium Golem with different flavor text and a random number generator set to auto-run for a few minutes with unbounded significant digits, both stat-wise and CR-wise.

chiasaur11
2009-01-31, 01:38 AM
Actually, I don't believe that you did - I hadn't read that thread yet, but the Teratoid Tarrasque doesn't even have a Breath Weapon, let along the Lingering Breath feat. If you want feedback, don't be snide, and do read your own threads.

If you won't want feedback, my question stands - what's the point? You've yet to make a post in this thread that varies significantly from the following format:



Maybe you didn't notice, but the Immortals Handbook isn't of any use for actual play - everything in it is just a variant of the Iwinnium Golem with different flavor text and a random number generator set to auto-run for a few minutes with unbounded significant digits, both stat-wise and CR-wise.

And, what's worse, often it has awful gaps that let pre epic wizards explode it.

On accident.

Not a good use of paper, all in all.

JeminiZero
2009-01-31, 07:32 AM
I'm sorry, but Ouroboros is time. He may not be able to monitor everything, but it's not an especially challenging divination to find out if something will become a threat in the future because the future self shares its consciousness with its past self.


You're confusing awareness of future threats with the ability to stop them. Its like if dinosaurs knew that a meteorite was coming to wipe them out. But they lack the ability to build nukes to deflect the darn thing, the giant space rock will still toast them.

Imagine for a moment that the enemy (whether Pun Pun, Haruhi, or a Simulacrum Ouroboros fusioned with an Emerald Legionnaire) started off in a universe beyond the reach of target ouroboros. Enemy may be in the reach of another ouroboros (a different one for his own universe), but since he isn't attacking his own ouroboros, the local ouroboros isn't going to go after him.

The enemy builds up, and then one day, teleports to target universe and attacks target ouroboros. Now, target ouroboros knows in his universe that a powerful enemy is coming, but because the enemy starts off beyond his reach and knowledge, target ouroboros cannot unmake him (like he does everything else). His only chance of survival is to beat target enemy when he arrives. Now Ouroboros can prepares everything he wants, but if enemy is overwhelming enough, all of it will be for naught. Just like meteorites and dinosaurs.



since Ouroboros resides in at LEAST 5 Dimensions which I think trumps Universe it could be argued he probably circles the Great Wheel since time exists in all Planes.


He may exist in all planes for his universe. But not all universes. Some may not even have a great wheel cosmology, and any aspiring Ouroboros slayer can start there and build up without worrying about being attacked by a cosmic creature that does not exist in his setting. You yourself have said that:



not every setting assumes the Great Wheel Cosmology




This is the only problem I see with the creature as created where he resides ala the Great Wheel as per 3.5 DnD isn't defined, it probably makes most sense that he encircles the entire wheel.


This is highly contentious. By the same reasoning, since nothing in D&D refers to the great wheel, I could say all the D&D setting do not have it, and hence do not have ouroboros. Any aspiring Ouroboros slayer can start there, build up, and then go and kill ouroboros.

jcsw
2009-01-31, 08:35 AM
Question: If this Ourobros guy is taking out anyone who could potentially threaten him, why isn't everyone dead yet?

Person A gains slipstream, but then he doesn't because he got killed by Ouroboros.

Person B gains epic casting, but then he doesn't, because he got killed by Ouroboros.

Person C duplicates Ouroboros using simulacrum/ice assasin, but then he doesn't, because he got killed by Ouroboros.

Person D gained a wizard level. But then he doesn't because that would potentially bring him closer to kill Ouroboros. He is killed.

Person E gained XP. This would bring him closer to a level in which he threatens Ouroboros. He dies.

etc.

None of these actions in themselves would kill Ourobros. None of these in themselves even threaten him. But they lead to it. Therefore anyone who even remotely does anything related to an adventure will be killed.

Since D&D still exists, ouroboros either does not exist, or does not kill anyone who might threaten him.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 09:53 AM
You're confusing awareness of future threats with the ability to stop them. Its like if dinosaurs knew that a meteorite was coming to wipe them out. But they lack the ability to build nukes to deflect the darn thing, the giant space rock will still toast them.

Imagine for a moment that the enemy (whether Pun Pun, Haruhi, or a Simulacrum Ouroboros fusioned with an Emerald Legionnaire) started off in a universe beyond the reach of target ouroboros. Enemy may be in the reach of another ouroboros (a different one for his own universe), but since he isn't attacking his own ouroboros, the local ouroboros isn't going to go after him.

The enemy builds up, and then one day, teleports to target universe and attacks target ouroboros. Now, target ouroboros knows in his universe that a powerful enemy is coming, but because the enemy starts off beyond his reach and knowledge, target ouroboros cannot unmake him (like he does everything else). His only chance of survival is to beat target enemy when he arrives. Now Ouroboros can prepares everything he wants, but if enemy is overwhelming enough, all of it will be for naught. Just like meteorites and dinosaurs.



He may exist in all planes for his universe. But not all universes. Some may not even have a great wheel cosmology, and any aspiring Ouroboros slayer can start there and build up without worrying about being attacked by a cosmic creature that does not exist in his setting. You yourself have said that:





This is highly contentious. By the same reasoning, since nothing in D&D refers to the great wheel, I could say all the D&D setting do not have it, and hence do not have ouroboros. Any aspiring Ouroboros slayer can start there, build up, and then go and kill ouroboros.


No nonononnonono you misunderstand. This would be up to DM, either Ouroboros exists or it doesn't. If it does exist where does he exist? The create probably assumed that the Great Wheel is the ONLY universe and that there are no others in which case he would encircle it. Assuming someone could start in another Universe makes no sense, it makes more sense that there IS no other Universe, just the one that Ouroboros is assumed to reside him, if he is time then how could he not reside somewhere where time exists?

To reiterate, it makes sense in terms of standard DnD (The great wheel is mentioned in Planar Handbook) to assume there is only ONE universe the Great Where and on the outer edge the border between the Wheel and Nothingness or the Far Plane (I prefer to think of Ouroboros as the border between the Far Plane and the Wheel) and assume no other universes for simplicity.

I think its entirely far fetched hypothetically to actually come up with a bizarre scenario in a standard session where someone decides to make a Pun Pun some how manages to do this in a non existence plane of existence just to beat someone or something he would barely know about.

The point I would think is the above, players, creative players will always try to find away to kill a certain NPC if they feel like it and not understand the consequences, I would think the purposes of Ouroboros is simply to have a monster that thanks to a combination of abilities is unkillable to any such cheesy schemes but would only be killable is the DM wished it via story.


And anyways after thinking it over I think the best way to manage this Paradox is simply that its a Draw, its always best to think of struggles between gods as representative of them playing Chess, with Pun Pun the universes most epic Kobold sitting cross legged on Ouroboros's snout playing Shogi with Ouroboros, a perpetual draw for all eternity for one can see the future and know every enemy move ahead of time versus someone of such "infinit" intelligence as to make the perfect move everytime.

Unmoveable Object vs Unstopable force.

Raenir Salazar
2009-01-31, 10:03 AM
Question: If this Ourobros guy is taking out anyone who could potentially threaten him, why isn't everyone dead yet?

Person A gains slipstream, but then he doesn't because he got killed by Ouroboros.

Person B gains epic casting, but then he doesn't, because he got killed by Ouroboros.

Person C duplicates Ouroboros using simulacrum/ice assasin, but then he doesn't, because he got killed by Ouroboros.

Person D gained a wizard level. But then he doesn't because that would potentially bring him closer to kill Ouroboros. He is killed.

Person E gained XP. This would bring him closer to a level in which he threatens Ouroboros. He dies.

etc.

None of these actions in themselves would kill Ourobros. None of these in themselves even threaten him. But they lead to it. Therefore anyone who even remotely does anything related to an adventure will be killed.

Since D&D still exists, ouroboros either does not exist, or does not kill anyone who might threaten him.


I should point out what percentage of adventurers whom starting at level 1 to 9 ever make it to the above levels? Its one thing to be level 99 and the ability to do superluminal travel on the back of a giant turtle is completely another to travel in time in such a way to threaten Ouroboros, heck just being able to travel in time isn't that much of a threat as few beings are "perceptive" enough to do so and understand all the variables to actually mess it up, and those who do get a dose of karma thrown at them.

Why would a Demiurge really care? Actions that could lead to it don't matter its DO they lead to it and in a typical campaign (or should I say atypical) where things from the Immortals handbook and people actually make it to above level 40 aren't exactly common.

Nohwl
2009-01-31, 10:25 AM
youre right, there isnt a big percent that do make it above level 9. i will guess 1% of all adventurers do make it above level 9. now how many people are adventurers in the universe? 1% of, lets say 1,000,000,000,000 adventurers, is a lot. and each one could have the potential to kill ouroboros. he isnt just watching out for a few people.

JeminiZero
2009-01-31, 10:33 AM
No nonononnonono you misunderstand. This would be up to DM, either Ouroboros exists or it doesn't. If it does exist where does he exist?


Right.



The create probably assumed that the Great Wheel is the ONLY universe and that there are no others in which case he would encircle it.


Just because Ouroboros exists in a universe/multiverse with a great wheel cosmology, does not necessarily imply that it is the only universe in existence.



Assuming someone could start in another Universe makes no sense, it makes more sense that there IS no other Universe, just the one that Ouroboros is assumed to reside him, if he is time then how could he not reside somewhere where time exists?


Because he is NOT the only representation of time out there. If there are multiple universes, it is not hard to imagine each one may have been formed by different processes, and not all those processes involve a giant 2 headed dragon. Indeed, most universes likely have their own seperate (if cliched) creation stories.



To reiterate, it makes sense in terms of standard DnD (The great wheel is mentioned in Planar Handbook) to assume there is only ONE universe the Great Where and on the outer edge the border between the Wheel and Nothingness or the Far Plane (I prefer to think of Ouroboros as the border between the Far Plane and the Wheel) and assume no other universes for simplicity.


Simplicity? This is D&D. Part of the fun is the complicated bizarre crap we can come up with. Some create insane planet killing abominations, some enjoy reading up on said insane abominations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5708963&postcount=8), others come up with hideously complicated breeding processes to create troll supersoldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587).

There should be a link to some of the stuff that Tippy has done here as other examples, but I can't think of any off hand. Maybe one of those essays he has on effect of magic on society.

Also, assuming only one universe is indeed the simplest explanation. But this is Theoretical Optimization, which means that as long as something is possible (i.e. not explcitly forbidden by RAW), it can occur (like Pun Pun). Since multiple universes are possible (and are necessary for our Ouroboros slaying exercise), they can occur.



I think its entirely far fetched hypothetically to actually come up with a bizarre scenario in a standard session where someone decides to make a Pun Pun some how manages to do this in a non existence plane of existence just to beat someone or something he would barely know about.


I agree, it is completely far fetched. But again, this is Theoretical Optimization. You wanted to know how we would try and kill it, we need to start with something that cannot be unmade by the Ouroboros, so this is the way.

vegetalss4
2009-01-31, 10:34 AM
this is Ouroboros senses.
he can see the whole universe, but not through stuff. he knows 68 weeks in advance whenever something affects his portfoilio (i am assuming time). he knows everything he will ever know.

here's how pun pun will defeat him.
he start before he ever ascends. in the arstral plane. how he got there with a candle of evocation does not matter. once there he uses wall of stone to creathe a completely closed room(remember we have up to 272 levels to give him before the figth, we give him about 10) . Ouroboros can't see him anymore. remember he isn't a threat rigth now. he then gain the manipulate form ability, and uses it to make this custom ability.

Hidden (Ex) no creature can ever sense pun-pun or know of him, unless he consiusly chooses to allow them too, any creature that already know about him forget everything about him. anilities that would normally allow someone the know about pun-pun, does not work. Pun-Pun is imune to this ability.

know this ability isn't related to Ouroboros's portfoilio, so he does not know about pun-pun. there where once a time when he did know. but he has forgotten, since he knows everything he ever will know, and ever has known at once, he has from now on never know about pun-pun.

Now Pun-pun gives himself slipsteam, even through Ouroboros normally would know, he don't thanks to pun-puns Hidden ability.
pun-pun proceeds to ready himself and kills Ouroboros's through another ability that does precisely that. see Pun-Pun allways win:smallwink:

Tohron
2009-01-31, 10:48 AM
I should point out what percentage of adventurers whom starting at level 1 to 9 ever make it to the above levels? Its one thing to be level 99 and the ability to do superluminal travel on the back of a giant turtle is completely another to travel in time in such a way to threaten Ouroboros, heck just being able to travel in time isn't that much of a threat as few beings are "perceptive" enough to do so and understand all the variables to actually mess it up, and those who do get a dose of karma thrown at them.

Why would a Demiurge really care? Actions that could lead to it don't matter its DO they lead to it and in a typical campaign (or should I say atypical) where things from the Immortals handbook and people actually make it to above level 40 aren't exactly common.

Well, if Ouroboros doesn't care, then Jemini's Epic Dweomkeeper could simply cast a Permanancied Epic Concealment with absurdly boosted effective caster level. Now he can proceed with the rest of his plan, and Ouroboros has no way of detecting him.

Copacetic
2009-01-31, 10:54 AM
Okay, I am really failing to see the point of this discussion. The Thread name states "trying this one on for size." Yet every arguement is being shot down in triple posts(Edit Button is your friend) containing the same spiel; Time Travel, you lose. And you, Raenir Salazar, have the gall to call Shvering touch
conceivably the most unbalancing and overpowered spell in the game.. And if A DM should ever want for a monster thats only possible to slay via DM intervention, he/she may simple fudge rolls agaisnt a level one goblin mook. So tell us, Buddy, how we are supposed to take down The big bad dragon O' Time.

Nohwl
2009-01-31, 12:32 PM
i dont think my plan of teleporting onto orouboros has been shot down. of course, i havent really finished building the character for it yet, and my plan to beat that iwinium golem by erasing your character sheet hasnt been shot down either.

you are a warforged wizard 19/cancer mage 1.

he is immune to mortal spells, so i picked a race that has no maximum age. warforged are immortal. they dont really die. im using this argument because i dont know how to get a divine rank before level 20.

you wait until you have enough strength to deal a lot of damage to him, but not enough to activate his immune to massive damage thing.(you gain strength ever day, so this involves sitting around doing nothing until you are strong enough.)

im still in favor of having a contingency that activates targetting orobouros the instant you teleport(or whatever spell is used to get to him) onto him. the contingency is a shivering touch that has been twinned and then maximized and energy substituted for 36 dex damage. he is now unconscious. proceed to take out a dagger and stab him to death or something. i dont think supernatural abilities work if the thing they are on isnt conscious. and if it doesnt, well he is unconscious. youve got time to think of something before he can retaliate.

the problem with this is bypassing spell resistance as a level 20 character. which can probably be done with some other spell.

Ascension
2009-01-31, 12:33 PM
Okay, I am really failing to see the point of this discussion. The Thread name states "trying this one on for size." Yet every arguement is being shot down in triple posts(Edit Button is your friend) containing the same spiel; Time Travel, you lose.

Reading through this I was about to post the same thing. It isn't a "challenge" if every possible plan is met by "Sorry, you lose" and you ignore the text of the entry to make the Ouroboros more powerful simply because the entry about its senses doesn't make sense to you.

Alleine
2009-01-31, 02:38 PM
Actually I think the diplomancer is the best solution.
1. Diplomancer uses his diplomacy to set up a meeting with Ouroboros where Ouroboros' turns of his aura(assuming that he can because he should, otherwise life would be really boring for him)
2. Ouroboros allows the Diplomancer to speak.
3. Diplomancer causes Ouroboros to become his fanatical servant.
4. Ouroboros is no longer willing to kill the Diplomancer because he is now a fanatical servant. Ouroboros will go back in time to kill himself if need be to protect the diplomancer.
5. ????
6 Profit!!!

AgentPaper
2009-01-31, 03:02 PM
How Ourboros was made:

DM sends a dragon at the party. Normal mid-CR dragon, let's say it's blue. Said DM needs the dragon to win for plot purposes, (and/or hates the players) so he's gunna make it win. Named it Ourboros, said dragon has a god-complex and is supposed to be the main enemy. Dragon confronts the party, who are good optimizers, and it turns out the DM doesn't know how to play the dragon very well. Still, refuses to let it loose. Some excerpts from the fight:

Fighter: "I stab it with my sword."
DM: "Sorry, it's immune to that."
Fighter: "What?"
DM: "It's a dragon so it's easy to assume it has pretty tough scales, much tougher than your little sword."

DM: "It uses it's breath weapon on you."
Druid: "I form myself into an ice-immune creature to absorb the breath with no damage!"
DM: "That doesn't work, its, uh, radioactive ice. Can't be immune to that."

Rogue: "I sneak up and backstab the thing"
DM: "It's easy to assume that, since it can shoot radioactive ice, it's skin must be very cold and also radioactive. You take (rolls dice), 36 damage."
Rogue: "Damn, that's more than half my health!"
DM: "Oh, you take double damage because he critted you. You die."

Wizard: "I cast shivering touch on him, so he's paralyzed and we can run away."
DM: "Goddamnit, that spell is overpowered, you can't use it."
Wizard: "Ugh, ok, then instead I cast Eneveration, and drain some levels to weaken it."
DM: "Fine. But since he's a dragon and has lived so long, he's got a whole bunch of levels."
Wizard: "Well, I drained 72 levels from him, how many does he have left?"
DM: "Uh, 200."

Wizard: "I cast time stop and try to flee."
DM: "It turns out this dragon has control over time, so it makes sense that he can still do things. He claws at you."
Wizard: "I have a contingency set up that will send me back to the tower if I go below half health, so that activates."
DM: "Well, since he has control over time, he can go back in time and kill you before you cast that contingency."
Wizard: "Fine, then the contingency I had set up THEN goes off and the same thing happens."
DM: "He keeps going back. How long ago did you cast your first contingency?"
Wizard: "Uh, that was more than a year ago...(thinks for a bit) 67 weeks I think."
DM: "He goes back 68 weeks and kills you."


Basically, you seem to be giving this guy the power of, "The DM controls him, so he can decide how his powers work. If it makes even a little sense and is favorable to the DM, he can do it." By RAW, a mid-high level wizard can take this guy out. Pun-Pun, unless he was silly enough to leave his cave of birth while he was ascending to godhood, wouldn't even bother to. If he wanted to though, he would just gain all the powers of Ourboros, and then curb-stomp him with his "Twice as high as they need to be for whatever task I'm doing" stats. Ourboros can go 68 weeks into the past? Fine, Pun-Pun can go back 69. Ourboros is present knows the same as his future self at the beginning of time? Fine, Pun-Pun goes back to before time began by boosting his divine rank and using Seventh Sense. How many weeks ago did time begin? Pun-Pun has DR twice that now. He stops ourboros from being the lord of time and makes himself that, just for sh**s and giggles.

If you let the DM rule 0 all he wants with the guy, sure Ourboros will win. Hell, like pointed out a level 1 mink would win. If you go by RAW, though, or at least a DM who doesn't stray too far from it, then Ourboros is no challenge to the true optimizer, as has been shown a few times now. :smallannoyed:

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-31, 08:10 PM
Okay take on this one for size.

Evel Knieval could!

Y'know, I bet Candlejack could also take him o

xanaphia
2009-02-01, 12:20 AM
Punpun would get slipstream, then go back in time before Ouroboros was powerful.

By the way, how does two slipstream-enabled characters fighting each other work?

OOTS_Rules 2
2009-02-01, 12:36 AM
The slipstream doesn't effect either of them. If either one goes back in the past, the other follows. Its basically useless unless one slipstream is stronger. Which, if Ouroboros can't see him doing, PunPun can get. Nothing beats that Kobold.