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Thurbane
2009-01-31, 07:17 PM
Is there a decent, core-only (i.e. PHB/DMG/MM, PHB races only) reach melee build, that doesn't involve a spiked chain? Think around ECL 8.

Keld Denar
2009-01-31, 07:24 PM
Fighter4/Barb4 with a Gusisarme and Imp Trip?

Oh, and Power Attack....don't forget PA.

horseboy
2009-01-31, 07:27 PM
Gusarme. Though in a strict core you're going to run out of "useful" feats pretty quick.
If you replace (http://rpghq.org/profiler/view.php?id=106) Hold the Line and Expert Tactician with power attack, cleave and/or improved Init you're going to be about done.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-31, 07:30 PM
Do you mind being on a mount? Ranger 8 with a horse companion or Paladin 8 with a special mount, take the archery tree so you can shoot from horseback before closing with a lance, and grab Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, etc. If you can wrangle it, try and get a flying mount (like a giant eagle or giant owl) so you can dive-bomb people--remember, you get an extra multiplier on your lance damage for a diving charge. Lance x2, x3 for Spirited, x4 for Diving Charge--and, would you look at that, lances are reach weapons.

horseboy
2009-01-31, 07:48 PM
There's also druid with wolf AC. :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2009-01-31, 07:56 PM
There's also druid with wolf AC. :smallwink:

Interestingly, you could be a Small druid (say, a halfling) and get a Medium viper as an animal companion. Slap an exotic saddle on it, and you have yourself an interesting, venomous mount. They're good too, with 20' land, 20' climb, 20' swim, poison, and scent.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-31, 08:07 PM
Meet the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), courtesy of Saph. :smallsmile: It's pretty awesome.

Swooper
2009-01-31, 08:47 PM
Meet the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), courtesy of Saph. :smallsmile: It's pretty awesome.
I was going to suggest this, but you beat me to it so I'll just agree with you instead. :smallsmile:

Thurbane
2009-01-31, 10:43 PM
I should point out - I'm more interested in a damage-dealing reach build than a tripping reach build, though the two aren't mutually exclusive...

Something along the lines of:

1/2 Orc Fighter 6/Barbarian 2

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 6

1 Power Attack
3 Cleave
F1 Weapon Focus (Glaive)
F2 Combat Reflexes
6 Great Cleave
F4 Weapon Specialization (Glaive)
F6 Improved Critical (Glaive)

Curmudgeon
2009-01-31, 10:53 PM
If you want to focus on just reach, add armor spikes to threaten if they get close to you. If you want to focus on tripping, add a level of Monk to get Improved Unarmed Strike and decent unarmed damage and the ability to also trip if they get close to you.

Keld Denar
2009-01-31, 11:07 PM
If you want to focus on just reach, add armor spikes to threaten if they get close to you. If you want to focus on tripping, add a level of Monk to get Improved Unarmed Strike and decent unarmed damage and the ability to also trip if they get close to you.

If you aren't focused on control, there are VERY few situations when you can't just take a 5' step and swing again. The few circumstances that you can't are not worth spending a feat of a dead BAB level on monk for. Armor spikes are the best alternative, and not terribly cheesy. Damage is low, but you can also use them in a grapple, which you can't say about a Glaive. Hit em with a GMW when your wizo is chaining it, and you have a presentable weapon worth using only when you really need it.

Swooper
2009-01-31, 11:34 PM
I should point out - I'm more interested in a damage-dealing reach build than a tripping reach build, though the two aren't mutually exclusive...
Are you limited to just the actual core, or can you use stuff from the SRD? Because that opens up the Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) feat. Power attack with your glaive, deal loads of damage (at least 10), get a free trip attempt, get another free attack when you trip your foe.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-31, 11:47 PM
If you aren't focused on control, there are VERY few situations when you can't just take a 5' step and swing again. The few circumstances that you can't are not worth spending a feat of a dead BAB level on monk for. By itself? No, probably not. But you're also getting +2 to all three saves for that Monk level -- 3, 5, and 5 levels ahead of where a pure Fighter would be. Fighters have two weak saves, so improving the ones most commonly required for spells is nothing to sneeze at.

ericgrau
2009-02-01, 12:20 AM
Weapon
You can switch to a glaive to get an extra 0.5 damage, but really you might as well get a guisarme and at least keep tripping and disarming as options. Even without the feats you can use your reach to avoid provoking AoO's. And you already get a +4 to disarm for wielding a 2 handed weapon. So basically you focus your build around damage, but if you have a great opportunity to trip or disarm then you take it.

Feats
Half-orc fighter 8
1: weapon focus, improved initiative
2: dodge
3: (feat)
4: weapon specialization
5:
6: (feat), (feat)
7:
8: improved critical
(later, 9: improved weapon focus)

Honestly there's not much featwise you can do for a pure damage dealer, but there are still a ton of other core feats left. Just branch out into other things. Or be barbarian if you want and you won't have to make so many choices.

Gear
Boots of speed and gauntlets of ogre power are good to boost your damage output. Besides that I'd get +2 armor and a +1 ring of protection for defense. If you already have a friendly caster hitting your reliably with haste, you can swap the boots of speed with a +1 spell storing weapon with a damage spell in it from the same caster. That's 4,000gp cheaper than the boots so you could get an amulet of health for 16 more HP or w/e else.

Stats
Assuming elite array: 21 str, 14 con, 13 dex, 12 wis, 10 int, 8 cha.
Attacks: +16/+16/+11 or +15, 1d10+9 19-20/x3
40.02 or 13.92 avg damage per round vs. the average CR 8 monster (AC 20)
46.98 or 16.53 avg damage per round vs. the average CR 4 monster (AC 16)
Defense: 64.5 avg HP, 24 AC (22 w/o haste and dodge) if in full plate.

Power attack analysis:

Columns headers = PA modifier
Row headers = attack bonus
Entry = Damage Per Round before crits: from roughly 1 hit per round on a single attack, roughly 2.5 hits per round on a full attack

Single attack vs. AC 20
{table] |0|1|2|3|4|5|6
15|11.6|12.375|12.95|13.325|13.5|13.475|13.25
[/table]

Full attack vs. AC 20
{table]|0|1|2|3|4|5|6
16|12.325|13.2|13.875|14.35|14.625|14.7|14.575
16|12.325|13.2|13.875|14.35|14.625|14.7|14.575
11|8.7|9.075|9.25|9.225|9|8.575|7.95
TOTAL|33.35|35.475|37|37.925|38.25|37.975|37.1
[/table]

Single Attack vs. AC 16
{table]|0|1|2|3|4|5|6
15|13.775|15.675|16.65|17.425|18|18.375|18.55
[/table]

Full Attack vs. AC 16
{table]0|1|2|3|4|5|6
16|13.775|15.675|17.575|18.45|19.125|19.6|19.875
16|13.775|15.675|17.575|18.45|19.125|19.6|19.875
11|11.6|12.375|12.95|13.325|13.5|13.475|13.25
TOTAL|39.15|43.725|48.1|50.225|51.75|52.675|53
[/table]

Power attack adds about 2 damage per hit against CR 8 foes, and 5.5 damage per hit against CR 4 foes. 4 CR 4 foes equals a CR 8 encounter ("challenging", i.e. 1/4 of party's resources expended against baddies half their level but not much chance of losing), and 4 CR 8 foes equals a CR 12 encounter ("very difficult"). So when it really matters you get +2 damage, unless you're fighting 16 CR 4 foes (also CR 12).

That's decent enough for a feat, but I should note that if you get a +1 weapon with a +1d6 weapon enchantment that drops to only +1 damage per hit, and it continues to go down from there (tables not shown for the sake of space). So whether or not you get power attack now while it's hot is up to you. And if you do another build with a stronger weapon, instead of relying on strength and an extra attack like mine, it'll already be mediocre.

I should also note that this depends on having enough expendable AB to PA and still hit the target's AC. 4 of the 6 damage in the CR 4 scenario is free b/c you're still at 95% hit with PA +2. So if you go with another build with even 2 less AB, the gains from PA will drop sharply.

Eldariel
2009-02-01, 04:37 AM
I should point out - I'm more interested in a damage-dealing reach build than a tripping reach build, though the two aren't mutually exclusive...

Something along the lines of:

1/2 Orc Fighter 6/Barbarian 2

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 6

1 Power Attack
3 Cleave
F1 Weapon Focus (Glaive)
F2 Combat Reflexes
6 Great Cleave
F4 Weapon Specialization (Glaive)
F6 Improved Critical (Glaive)

Great Cleave is almost certainly wasted, as is Improved Critical (since you can get Keen Edges for a nominal price from the Wizard, or a Scabbard of Keen Edge as an item later) - Cleave can be worthwhile though and I'd get Improved Initiative before either Great Cleave or Improved Critical.

Really, core is really bad for focusing a Fighter; there're only four really worthwhile feats (you've picked two of them and don't qualify for Improved Trip) in Core so the whole "I get lots of feats"-shtick of a Fighter sucks. If you found a way to up your Int for Expertise > Improved Trip (whatever is said, getting that extra attack after tripping with opponent's reduced AC while two-handed power attacking is just awesome).

Lycar
2009-02-01, 09:44 AM
Are you limited to just the actual core, or can you use stuff from the SRD? Because that opens up the Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) feat. Power attack with your glaive, deal loads of damage (at least 10), get a free trip attempt, get another free attack when you trip your foe.

Sorry but Knockdown doesn't (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/44622-knockdown-feat-improved-trip.html) work (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-20517.html) that way.

No free attack after knocking down your opponent.

Consider it to be a reverse trip attack. In a standard trip attack, you gamble your attack on a chance to make your foe sit down and then get to smack him with a +4 to to-hit. But if your trip fails, the attack is wasted.

With Knockdown, you already got to damage your foe and sending him sprawling is just the icing on the cake. :smallwink:

Lycar

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-01, 10:07 AM
Lvl 8 core tripper without spiked chain?

Try the whip. You may make a high-STR bard for that, and enjoy the benefits of the good hope spell, providing another +2 to the trip check. However, you'd not be able to make the AoO use with it - and a whip rarely can do any damage to a tripped character (once there are armour or natural armour bonuses).

Better yet, though, is to use a monk.
Reason?
Some of the above high-STR-barbarian builds ignore that you need an INT of 13 to get improved trip, so half-orc and orc for STR bonuses but INT penalties cause MAD.
So the best build might be:

Level 6 orc monk
(to get the bonus feats combat reflexes and improved trip without minimum ability requirements),
and then barbarian 2
(you'll need an alignment change from lawful to chaotic, but you do not lose your monk abilities in the process; and no multiclass problems, since the favoured class of the orc is barbarian).
Grab power attack and use the staff (A monk weapon, so you can flurry it AND get the 2:1 ratio with power attack). Trip as AoO with your unarmed strikes from up to 10ft away. Then on your turn full attack opponent, deducting your 6 BAB for 12 more damage on each hit. Profit. (full attack meaning three flurried attacks, more when you have two-weapon-fighting or in case you are under a haste effect).

With potions of enlarge and glibness (or wands...:smallwink: ) you'd get the highest tripping check of character in the core game at level 8, I think.
With a start STR of 18 (13 pt buy, the rest you can afford to pour into DEX), +4 (orc), +2 (stat gains at 4 and 8), +4 (rage), +2 (item), +2 (size from enlarge), you'd have a STR score at level 8 of 32.
This means a +11 bonus to the trip check
+4 from the feat
+2 from good hope
+4 from the size
For a total of +21.
Enough to beat even most creatures of those levels (but watch out for the quardu/multipeds and just attack those with your normal attacks).
The damage you deal is quite massive. With a shillelagh staff, you'd do three times: 3d6 (size, shillelagh) +1 (shillelagh enhance) + 11 (STR), +2 (morale from good hope) +12 (from power attack), or on average 36 damage per hit (100 in a round).

You may get a +1 LA race for higher STR, but I'm not sure about the multiclass penalties when that race's favoured class is neither barbarian nor monk, and how the loss of the level 8 stat gain would affect all this.

- Giacomo

ericgrau
2009-02-01, 10:28 AM
^ He said he wants mostly a damage build not a tripping build. :smalltongue: But I'll agree that for tripping a monk can do it better, since it's a strength check (BAB has little importance), because he can flurry trip attempts, and because he can easily move to the trippable targets. Plus the easier pre-reqs that you just brought to my attention.

Eldariel: Good catch on the scabbard of keen edges over improved critical. However, at his level it's not worth the 16k price tag, and he does have a lot of feats. It's quite valuable for damage output; a 9% on average. Though it's concentrated into 10% of his attacks. So it's up to Thurbane to decide whether or not he wants more power now or an extra feat later. As for the keen weapon enchantment, he'll get more damage from a +1 equivalent damage enchantment until he hits ~35 base damage (not including damage enchantments), which in core might be never.

TengYt
2009-02-01, 10:31 AM
I like the idea of a Halfling or Gnome mounted charger with a riding dog + Lance and Spirited Charge. Mounted charging inside dungeons? Yummy.

Eldariel
2009-02-01, 10:45 AM
As for the keen weapon enchantment, he'll get more damage from a +1 equivalent damage enchantment until he hits ~35 base damage (not including damage enchantments), which in core might be never.

Yea, I was referring to the spell named "Keen Edge", which should be available from your Wizard as a pre-buff. It's a 10 min/level spell after all, and a level 3 (although not as important or longlasting as Greater Magic Weapon, of course). One thing we must remember though is that there're 5 more or less prominent creature types (Undead, Elemental, Plant, Construct, Ooze, probably in the order of prominency although it depends on the campaign) that are immune to criticals along with high level humanoids (who are probably packing Fortifications), which lessens the impact of Keen; in a number of fights, it'll do nothing.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-01, 10:47 AM
^ He said he wants mostly a damage build not a tripping build. :smalltongue: .

It's hard to churn out more damage per round in core at level 8 than the build with the 108 I described...and with a haste effect (boots of speed?) it gets up to 144...:smallbiggrin: The kicker is that the staff can receive BOTH benefits of power attack AND flurry...

- Giacomo

AmberVael
2009-02-01, 10:57 AM
It's hard to churn out more damage per round in core at level 8 than the build with the 108 I described...and with a haste effect (boots of speed?) it gets up to 144...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

You're assuming that after you've subtracted all of your BAB that you'll actually manage to, you know, hit all three times in a round.
Even on some of the lowest AC creatures listed you'll likely miss at least once.

What's more, your build relies on Enlarge potions to get reach- considering his build is meant to be focused around reach, I'm thinking he'd want something more reliable in that manner.

Also, while you can technically, legally multiclass from Monk to Barbarian, that seems about as silly and cheesy as the spiked chain use that is already being avoided.

Lastly- you're using a monk.
:smallannoyed:
I know you're a supporter of a monk, but even you should admit that the monk isn't the best at everything. We're looking for a damaged focused reach weapon build- that doesn't sound like the monk's expertise.

Edit- oh yeah, and he said PHB races only, so Orc is out.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-01, 11:40 AM
You're assuming that after you've subtracted all of your BAB that you'll actually manage to, you know, hit all three times in a round.
Even on some of the lowest AC creatures listed you'll likely miss at least once.

The build I listed would end up with an attack bonus of 6 (BAB) +11 (STR) -1 (size) +1 (enhance) -6 (PA) +4 (vs prone) -1 (flurry) +2 (morale) for a total of +16/+16/+11. It's OK for level 8, I'd say.


What's more, your build relies on Enlarge potions to get reach- considering his build is meant to be focused around reach, I'm thinking he'd want something more reliable in that manner.

But he also said he wants damage. The flurry and power attack combo provides just that.
Plus, in many groups an arcane caster will have the enlarge spell because it'S such a great melee buff.


Also, while you can technically, legally multiclass from Monk to Barbarian, that seems about as silly and cheesy as the spiked chain use that is already being avoided.

It's not silly to roleplay a monk who leaves his lawful ways behind to become more of a beserking character (due to some trauma?). If the babarian class was meant to be only based on cultural background, the rules would have excluded the possibility to multiclass into in during the adventuring career.
But true, not all DMs may follow the rules in that point.


Lastly- you're using a monk.
:smallannoyed:
I know you're a supporter of a monk, but even you should admit that the monk isn't the best at everything. We're looking for a damaged focused reach weapon build- that doesn't sound like the monk's expertise.

I gave reasons why six monk levels make good sense in this build. Provide a core build that does more damage at reach using no monk levels.
Meanwhile, I never maintained anywhere that the monk is the best at everything.


Edit- oh yeah, and he said PHB races only, so Orc is out.

Half-orc then, yielding a by +1 lower trip check result.

- Giacomo

ericgrau
2009-02-01, 03:30 PM
The build I listed would end up with an attack bonus of 6 (BAB) +11 (STR) -1 (size) +1 (enhance) -6 (PA) +4 (vs prone) -1 (flurry) +2 (morale) for a total of +16/+16/+11. It's OK for level 8, I'd say.


After 3 buffs, a rage (which he only gets 1/day) and a trip, taking 4 rounds if the trip works, at least 1 of which must be in combat. If not all 4, since most combats are surprises. Orcs also get a -1 to attack rolls outdoors or otherwise in bright light, and he's not using them. You also started with an 18 strength while I used 15 from elite array (+2 lower mod), but w/e. And like someone said you assumed all the attacks hit. When I figured damage per round I did it without any prep rounds, left out trip (only suggesting it as an option) and only counted hits. I also included AC and HP, which was helped a good deal by full plate. And just as the baddy's AC proved significant, so is the OP's: I checked a few CR 8 martial monsters and they did 20ish damage a hit with a high attack bonus. Nothing to sneeze at. If he's getting frequent hits or - worse - power attacking against an AC low enough to give him PA for free, the OP would be out cold in 2-3 rounds if the baddy goes after him. And why not? That'd be a good target. I also used standard wealth by level. You're free to copy any part of what I did for your own builds.

If he wanted a focused tripper OTOH, Giacomo's build could drop to 0-2 buff rounds and he might get away with less defense as long as he avoids the targets that can't be easily tripped. The whole barbarian/monk thing still smells as Vael mentioned, but the barbarian levels could be removed.

Eldariel: As for the keen edge spell, ya that works. Apparently this guy should talk to the party wizard before finishing his build, as there are at least two spells to ask about that affect his build choices.