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sekaiichibannobaka
2006-09-29, 06:16 AM
I'm trying to make a basic class thats actually a cross between the Duelist and the Mystic Theurge.Problem is,I cant balance anything out.So,anyone,please help me?

NOTE:

CLASS HISTORY:

The Red Mage[yes,its the Final Fantasy one,with the red hat.] is a traveller,going about lands,seeking the delights and comforts of places strange to him/her.He/She,is usually adept at the usual array of speech,using diplomacy and lies.Intimidating someone is not something a Red Mage would do,as it is without flair,and brutish.

Red Mages strive for elegance,both in combat and spellcasting.They prefer to be in the gray zone,using neither Black[arcane] nor White[divine] magic.

SKILLS DETERMINED:

Chain Cast:Upon sucessfully casting a standard action spell,the Red Mage may cast another standard action spell as a free action.[once per round,maybe?]

Dual Cast:The Red Mage casts two spells at once,at half his caster level,as its tough to cast two spells at one go.

Flowing Mana:The Red Mage loses the penalty of casting at half his caster level when using Dual Cast.

Imbue Weapon:The Red Mage imbues his/her weapon or the weapon of his/her ally with an element of his/her choice.The duration for the elemental bonus is half the Red Mage's levels worth of rounds.

Spellcasting is that of a sorcerers,charisma based.

I cant think of anything else,how to tweak em and everything.

HELP REQUIRED:

Determination of Weapon Proficiencies,Class Skills,additional Class Features,and Spell Limiting.

Thanks for reading.Once again,will appreciate help given.Thanks.

Rex Idiotarum
2006-09-29, 06:35 AM
Try Gesalting them, from Unearthed Arcana, but try to balance it out a bit.

Now remember with something new, you don't know how much it's going to PWN, or how much it's going to suck. That's why there are play testers.

Goumindong
2006-09-29, 06:56 AM
O.K.

Here is why you cant balance anything out.

1. The entire idea and base class features are ridiculously broken

2. The entire idea and base class features are ridiculously broken

3. The entire idea and base class features are ridiculously broken

You are trying to combine two PRC's into one base class...

You want arcane and divine spellcasting...

You want the class to be able to cast two spells per round as a base feature.... and want the class to be able to wear armor and use some martial weapons.

The entire idea and base class features are ridiculously broken.

Scrap every one of them.

Lets start with... basing the class of the FF ideal.


1. Semi-Caster ends up at spells 1 level lower than max for full faster

2. Able to wear light armor

3. Decent Attack

4. Able to pick spells from the white mage or black mage list [I.E. arcane or divine list]

5. Casts spontainiously.


Ok, so on the whole we have.

Arcane Spellcasting In Light Armor, Arcane Spell Caster, Charisma Based, Spontainious, 3/4 BAB, good ref/will saves, can choose spells from cleric or wizard list.

Caster level = Red mage level -1.

Spell Progression would look like
Level: Spells per day:
1 : 2/1
2 : 3/2
3 : 4/3/1
4 : 4/4/2
5 : 4/4/3
6 : 4/4/4/1
7 : 4/4/4/2
8 : 4/4/4/3
9 : 4/4/4/4/1
10 : 4/4/4/4/2
11 : 4/4/4/4/3
12 : 4/4/4/4/4/1
13 : 4/4/4/4/4/2
14 : 4/4/4/4/4/3
15 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/1
16 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/2
17 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/3
18 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/1
19 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/2
20 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/1

Spells Known as Sorcerer who knows that level of spells[I.E. at level 3 you know the same amount of spells as a socerer at level 4, at level 6 you know the same amount of spells as a sorcerer at level 6, at level 9 you know the same amount of spells as a sorcerer at level 8, at level 12 you know the same amount of spells as a sorcerer at level 10, at level 15 you know the same amount of spells as a sorcerer at level 12, at level 18 you know the same amount of spells as a sorcerer at level 14, at level 20 you know the same amount of spells as a sorcerer at level 16.

No bonus feats, and nothing else, just 8 levels of casting, 3/4 BAB, 2 good saves, the ability to cast arcane spells in light armor, and pick divine spells to go on his arcane spell list.

bosssmiley
2006-09-29, 08:07 AM
Mystic Theurge? *bleuch!* Sub-optimal caster class. Theurge brings pain and suckiness. :'(

What about an Elven swashbuckler/cleric of Corellion Lo...(generic PHB Elf god who's name escapes me)?
Or you could go for some Races of the Wild Elvish goodness. I think that has class substitution levels for the Paladin with a more arcane flavour.
Or there's always the Duskblade in PHB2.
Or a (homebrew) arcane version of the Ranger.
Or a simple bard/cleric dual class.

Why reinvent the wheel when you can adapt existing material? Maximum result for minimum effort.

MrNexx
2006-09-29, 09:01 AM
I would suggest taking the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#battle-sorcerer) from the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html), and give him a more cleric/sorcerer hybrid list. EDIT: And the PHII modification which loses the familiar, but gains the ability to metamagic without time penalty.

Yossarian
2006-09-29, 11:07 AM
I'm trying to make a basic class thats actually a cross between the Duelist and the Mystic Theurge.Problem is,I cant balance anything out.So,anyone,please help me?

Hmm.

I would suggest using the Duskblade as a base, mostly for spell progression. Spell list would of course be tweaked; duskblades mostly have buffs, debuffs, and touch attacks, the Red Mage is more of a blaster with some control abilities, healing and light buffs. Red Mage is more magic-focused, so they should get extra spells known in return for 3/4 BAB and a worse Fort save. No shields, ever, and only casting in light armor.

With only a maximum of 5th level spells, ever, you could probably get away with giving dual-casting without having to pile on limitations: at level 20, two cone of cold spells at once is a very yawn-worthy ability.

Telok
2006-09-29, 11:18 AM
Ok, so on the whole we have.

Arcane Spellcasting In Light Armor, Arcane Spell Caster, Charisma Based, Spontainious, 3/4 BAB, good ref/will saves, can choose spells from cleric or wizard list.



That... sounds like a bard without the singing crap and better spells.

Ok, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm for a start, I'll just go off the table. Ditch all the bardy special abilities and increase spells per day.

Spells per day (from the bard table)
0 and 1 get +1 castings per day
2 and 3 get +2 castings per day
4 gets +3 castings per day

Select your spell list, skills seem good, and replace the bard singy crap with... with... Duskblade swift spells?

I'd advise not using the first three special abilities you detailed. They are way way too...

I flinched. Let's leave it at that.

The imbue weapon bit is ok as a special ability. I'd say a number of times per day equal to the character's Chr modifier, for a number of rounds equal to the character's Wis modifier, give +1d6 elemental damage to a weapon. Standard action, touch range. Give it the 1d6 at level 5, add Bursting at 11th level, and Brilliant Energy at 17th level. No stacking with itself or the same type of weapon enhancement.

How's that?

Beholden_Caulfield
2006-09-29, 11:36 AM
Take a bard. Replace the bardic music with the ability to quicken spells a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier. Give this ability at, oh, level 15 or so.

I don't really see a need for this as a class, though, other than to replicate something from Final Fantasy that isn't all that cool in FF anyway. Just play a bard; they do nearly everything worthwhile that Red Mages do, and they fit better into normal D&D mechanics.

Akiosama
2006-09-29, 02:18 PM
Voice of the Modcaster: This sounds like a Homebrew to me, so...

*Port - Homebrew Board*

Fizban
2006-09-29, 08:03 PM
Baisically what they said+:
I say drop all the normal bard abilities, base casting off off int. Skill points 2+int/level. Quick casting feature of duskblade using the same progression. Choose spells off of Cleric/Druid/Sor wiz list (I'd say any, but that would get messy).

Ultimately, it's been done many times before, and ultimately is always agreed to be a bard without singing.

sekaiichibannobaka
2006-09-29, 09:43 PM
Take a bard. Replace the bardic music with the ability to quicken spells a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier. Give this ability at, oh, level 15 or so.

I don't really see a need for this as a class, though, other than to replicate something from Final Fantasy that isn't all that cool in FF anyway. Just play a bard; they do nearly everything worthwhile that Red Mages do, and they fit better into normal D&D mechanics.


Really?I think they have the most potential for exploit,with dual casting and chain casting[though from what you guys say its quite broken...]

So,I'll use a bard base and a Duskblade[whats that?Im new to D&D,only have the 3.5 core books.],and then give the guy some not-so-broken or revamped class features[need help there...],and Ill get a red mage.Right...?

The bard is a prestige class,or so i make it...They suck at combat but have good songs,like song of charm and sleep[its another broken thing im trying to fix.],and stuff that affect morale and so forth.

Yossarian
2006-09-30, 02:26 PM
Duskblade is an alternate base class from the Player's Handbook II supplement; they're a spellcasting warrior class that doesn't involve multiclassing/prestige classing, so they're slinging spells around from the start. They start with the ability to cast 1st level spells (from their own limited spell list) and go up to 5th level spells at level 17. And they eventually get lots and lots and lots of spells per day for their lowest spell levels. The duskblade spell progression isn't that much different from what bards get; duskblades are just a bit more focused on low level spells, bards a bit more focused on slightly higher level ones.

Anyway, if you're limiting them to 5th-6th level spells tops and tweaking the spells available for them, I don't think it would be impossible to make dual casting work in a balanced fashion. Wizards and clerics in D&D don't correspond very closely with black and white mages in Final Fantasy; black mages mostly just blew stuff up, and white mages mostly just tried to save stuff from getting blown up. If red mages only had up to 5th-6th level spells, and they were limited to a spell list that mostly just included damage and healing spells (with a few nondamaging status ailments and some protective spells, but very few other buffs and practically no utility spells), that... really wouldn't amount to all that much for them. If they had full fighter BAB and 5th-6th level blasting/healing spells, you could probably call them done right there without any further class features. But if they only have 3/4 BAB like a bard or cleric, though, they would be badly gimped at that point--probably enough to justify giving them double casting. A 20th level wizard with Quicken Spell can cast a 5th-level spell and a 9th-level spell at once, so I really don't think it would be too broken to let red mages cast two 5th-level spells at once, especially if they had a severely limited 5th-level spell list to begin with.

HellFencer
2006-09-30, 06:15 PM
Here's my take on the situation, since I've tried to do this before, and it just hurt my brain:

Red mage in FF can cast HALF the spells that a black or white mage can. They can cast the same amount of spells, just lower level ones. Thus, you should cut the amount of spells a red mage has access to, in half. Red mages then would be able to access any arcane or divine spells of up to 4th level.

Nextly, is their ability to fight. They don't fight as well as the Fighter, but they can wear all the same stuff (and thus have access to the same defenses). Ok, this is easy. Give them the average BAB (that of a rogue), a good Will save, a poor Reflex save, and what I've seen a few times, an average (see below) Fort save. (Alternatively, you can just give them a poor Fort save as well, if you feel it is unbalancing to give them an average save).

Ok, now we have to figure out what to do about their defensive nature and wearing armor / shields. First of all, they are proficient in light, medium and heavy armors, as well as shields (even towers). For balance's sake, you could take away tower shields and heavy armor. That leaves spell failure. Easily fixable. Every 5 levels (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th) they gain an ability called Ignore Spell Failure. It starts at 10% and gains 5% at each level past 1st (Ex. at 5th level, the red mage has 15% spell failure ignored).

Now, is the red mage spontaneous or not? My take on it, is no. Why? Because it gives him #1 a wizard's flavor, and #2 makes more sense. Yes he is a martial character, but that's no reason for him to be sloppy about choosing spells. Thus, he needs to spend an hour each day preparing his spells, both arcane and divine. He does not pray to a god for these spells; most clerics / white mages would probably find the red mage's use of divine magic to be blasphemous, to say the least. Since a red mage can cast ANY spells between 0th and 4th levels, he may add spells he comes across to his spellbook. Divine spells may be accessed from other red mage's spellbooks, or identified via a spellcraft check.

Lastly, to improve on a red mage's ability to be versatile, I suggest giving him a bonus metamagic feat at 3rd, 8th, 13th, and 18th levels. However, he may only choose these from the sudden metamagic feats from Complete Arcane.

As for spells per day:
Level 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1 3 2 - - -
2 4 3 - - -
3 5 4 - - -
4 6 5 2 - -
5 6 5 3 - -
6 6 6 4 2 -
7 6 6 5 3 -
8 6 7 5 4 2
9 6 7 6 5 3
10 6 8 6 5 4
11 6 8 7 6 5
12 6 8 7 6 5
13 6 9 8 7 6
14 6 9 8 7 6
15 6 9 8 7 7
16 6 9 9 8 7
17 6 10 9 8 7
18 6 10 9 8 8
19 6 10 10 9 8
20 6 10 10 9 8

I won't get into proper skills at this juncture unless asked for my opinions. These are the basics of the red mage as I see them. You could always bump the allowable spells known to 5th or 6th level, and to increase versatality even more, you could let them learn ANY spell known that does not exceed their highest avialable slot (4th level spells in the above case).

Thoughts, opinions, criticisms?

(Upon review, it appears as though my spaces will not be saved. Oh well, you can still read the columns.)
[hr]
Level --- Good save ---- Average save ---- Poor save
1 +2 +1 +0
2 +3 +2 +0
3 +3 +2 +1
4 +4 +2 +1
5 +4 +3 +1
6 +5 +3 +2
7 +5 +4 +2
8 +6 +4 +2
9 +6 +4 +3
10 +7 +5 +3
11 +7 +5 +3
12 +8 +6 +4
13 +8 +6 +4
14 +9 +6 +4
15 +9 +7 +5
16 +10 +7 +5
17 +10 +8 +5
18 +11 +8 +6
19 +11 +8 +6
20 +12 +9 +6

Triaxx
2006-10-01, 10:32 AM
If you're looking to avoid the war that will result when the priests and clerics realize the Redmages are using divine magic, you could use Druidic magic as an alternative.

Naturally, the Red Mage wouldn't have the Druid feats or they're shapeshifting abilities, but they would be able to access all the healing spells a druid has, as well as some of it's more entertaining spells.

I would personally eliminate the ability to cast Wizard spells while wearing Medium armor, but leave it in for light. Medium armor would still allow for casting Druid Spells.

A good question, is what kind of weapons would a Red Mage want to use? Staves are useful, but would more fit taking alternate levels in Wizard or Sorceror and Druid. Rapiers are good, because it's a light weapon and wouldn't therefore interfere with spell casting. Weapon Focus Rapier would be a good additional feat, since Weapon finesse is over powered for a bonus in my opinion.

I'd limit spell casting to level 5 for mage spells, and 3 for druid spells. If you wanted to continue with the idea of finesse and elegance, you could base your spell casting on dexterity.

Skills:

Chain Casting is rather powerful as it is. Perhaps a second spell as a free action, after casting a full action spell. For example, an Enlarge Spell Fireball, with a Magic Missile chaser.

Dual Cast is interesting, but you should only be able to cast spells of half maximum level. So at level one you only get to cast cantrips as if you were half level.

Flowing Mana is a good idea, but it should only negate one of the two either able to cast full level spells at half caster level, or half caster level spells, at full caster level.

I love imbue weapon, though it should require use of a single spell of the same element as being imbued.

fangthane
2006-10-01, 02:11 PM
Halving levels doesn't work in D&D the way it tends to work in some FRPGs; halving the level of available spells doesn't halve a caster's potential, it cripples their potential. Generally the balance for Dual Spell should be that at least one needs to be Metamagicked and take a 1 or 2 level boost penalty; that is, a fireball dualled with another fireball would require one level 3 slot and one of either level 4 or 5. I'm not sure, to be honest, that there's really enough of a difference between that and the chain cast ability other than possibly the dual requiring a single target for both spells. I can also see munchkin trouble with things like a fireball/invisibility or a lower-level truestrike/acid arrow combination unless the ability's fairly well delineated (or the spell list restricted to avoid personal buffs in favour of direct damage/healing abilities) In any case, there's no way either ability should be usable more than 3 times per day, ideally once or a very lengthy progression (i.e. 1 at 5th, 2 at 12th and 3 at 19th)
Imbue weapon - you need to be a lot clearer about what this does; is it a +1d6 elemental damage modifier or something different? Can it be sonic? Does it burst? Does it improve as the mage levels? Bearing in mind that it's short duration and this guy's a mage, is it going to be cast on others enough for it really to be a worthwhile ability in the first place?

Again, you probbly want to restrict spells like Restoration (other than Lesser), the +4 ability buff line, True Strike, Bless and other 'effect' spells in favour of tweaking a pure damage/damage mitigation build. Things like Stoneskin seem a natural, as would the Fist spells and evocations; consider making some exceptionally-well-suited spells a level lower than normal, but if you do remember to make some more-synergistic spells a level higher as well.

Triaxx
2006-10-01, 09:34 PM
Halving levels doesn't work in D&D the way it tends to work in some FRPGs; halving the level of available spells doesn't halve a caster's potential, it cripples their potential. Generally the balance for Dual Spell should be that at least one needs to be Metamagicked and take a 1 or 2 level boost penalty; that is, a fireball dualled with another fireball would require one level 3 slot and one of either level 4 or 5.

However, this is only true with Dual Casting. If the RM is using a standard cast, it retains full casting level.

sekaiichibannobaka
2006-10-02, 03:24 AM
Well,the Chain Cast is obtained at higher levels,while dual at lower ones.Chain could only work,with a spell of lower level[forgot about it.Referred to my version 1 notes that time,sry!]

Dual is obtained at lower levels,and worked with the Chain[3 spells at one turn,believe or not!],with only the half caster level penalty.

Imbue Weapon took a spell of the same element from the Red Mage and added the damage of the weapon by 1d6[element].The elements that could be imbued were the primary 4:acid,lighning,fire and cold.More damage was added at first,but according to you guys,burst and brilliant energy effects replaced the damage boost.

There was also a Fast Cast skill,which reduced spells that were of full-round to standard action[1 round to 1 standard action,2 rounds to 1 round,etc etc],performable each day with the number of times based on half the charisma modifier of the RM,but I scraped that after some folks around complained about it being usable with the other skills...

The Red Mage was originally 60% duelist[finesse fighter] and 40% mage,with offensive and defensive spells mostly.Though with changes,its now more magey than before[version 2.3]. ::)

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-10-02, 06:44 PM
I would base the Red Mage on the Bard. Same concept, just throw out the bardic music ability and replace it with... I dunno, Doublecast? I would not give the Red Mage access to divine magic, but I would expand the spell list if you're removing all of the music-based stuff.

Doublecast: A level 1 Red Mage may cast two cantrips with a casting time of a standard action as a full-round action. At level 6, he may cast two spells of level 1 or lower together, at level 11 he may cast two spells of level 2 or lower together, and at level 16 he may cast two spells of level 3 or lower together.