OOTS #628 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[puppyavenger]

Showing once again that you should never trust a kobold.

[Kaelaroth]

V has children?! :smalleek:
Another awesome comic, sir.

[littlequietguy]

Yes!! The reason I live!

[TengYt]

Wow... V has kids. :smalleek:

[Ikialev]

V. Has. Children?
*head explodes*

[Järnblomma]

Kill V's CHILDREN!? :smalleek:

Although I can't help feeling sorry for the dragoness... :smallfrown:

[Deploy]

Children! No Way! We predicted the mother thing, heck we even got the oracle thig right! But V having children was something I don't think anyone saw coming! I commend you giant for once again completely baffling us! Great comic!

[farland]

Super Bowl day bonus!


Ouch, tell V about it ahead of time even.:smalleek::smallfrown:

[Zevox]

:eek:

(I am getting way too much use out of that smiley these days...)

I... don't even know what to say to this one. Can't wait for the next comic to see how this goes.

Zevox

[Mc. Lovin']

Oh the drama! How did it find out about V's kids?

[T-O-E]

Children? Imagine the epileptic trees people will come up with.

Also, the dragon shouting "nothing!" actually shook me.

[Raenir Salazar]

omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg.


AWESOME AWESOME!!!!


And V has children! No wonder she went adventuring! Awesome!

[RMS Oceanic]

:elan: Dun dun DUUUUUUUN!

Had to be said.

Guess we pretty much called it.

[CrimsonAngel]

BEST COMIC YET! :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Wow, I feel sorry for the dragon.

So glad I always try to talk first.

[Raenir Salazar]

Oh the drama! How did it find out about V's kids?

Scrying isn't a science, she probably came upon children by accident.

[Kriel]

Oh, my. And now Vaarsuvius understands the price of pride. It's going to cost him something that, from the look on his face, he holds VERY dear.

[Squark]

Wow. I'm not sure who I feel more sorry for. The Dragon, or V.

[Assassin89]

Now we know the motives of the black dragon and this answers a few questions. The main question that is raised is whether V is the mother or the father of the mentioned children? I anticipate an appearance by V's mate soon.

[Frog Dragon]

Wonder what V will do about it? Perhaps V will finally try to contact the order in order to rescue h** children from a dragon way out of h** league.

[Lira]

Holy crap. Now that's a twist.

[Radar]

Seeing the truth can be frightening (it's not a random dragon/goblin/NPC - he/she/it had a family). It does put things in perspective.

And the last panel is just Eeek!

[Melchiades]

V has... what?
Here comes mister Burlew, tying us around a character with tight knots, then deals a punch in the groin.
And I could've sworn the original comic title was 'A mother's worst nightmare'.

[CrimsonAngel]

Now we know the motives of the black dragon and this answers a few questions. The main question that is raised is whether V is the mother or the father of the mentioned children? I anticipate an appearance by V's mate soon.

There both andragenous. :smalltongue:

[Trixie]

That clinches it. V is female.

Evil female, but still female :smallamused:

[Zeful]

Now we know the motives of the black dragon and this answers a few questions. The main question that is raised is whether V is the mother or the father of the mentioned children? I anticipate an appearance by V's mate soon.

With Alter Self, V can be both a mother and a father to different children.

[malakim2099]

Oh the drama! How did it find out about V's kids?

Probably something like this:

Mama Dragon: And how can I hurt this fiend that murdered my son the most?
Oracle: *trances* Kill their children.

Which... really...

The desperation factor might be enough that would encourage V to leap into a deal with Qarr to save his/her kids. Not damning yourself for personal gain is one thing. But damning yourself to save your children? That's quite possible.

Either that or V can get on the straight and narrow to get help fast. Not sure how possible that will be, however.

[recluso]

First thought: That dragon will get to know the price of arrogance.
V's children are probably pretty tough.

However the dragon specifically waited till V was alone and without spells.
So the dragon can't give V 8 hours to rest.

So the children must be very close, maybe the dragon has them with her, incapacitated.

Is there something the dragon likely forgot?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yep! It is mom, and boy is she MAD!!!

[Starbuck_II]

That clinches it. V is female.

Evil female, but still female :smallamused:

Hey, males love their kids too. V can totally be male.

[Rogue 7]

So much for "Getting back to the main adventure.":smallamused: Though morally, I've got little sympathy for momma dragon here. Sure, the party just invaded the Black dragon's house, but if you attack someone with intent to kill just for walking in your front door, and get killed in return, I can't help but feel like you had it coming. So yeah, little sympathy, especially when you're a freakin' dragon.

[TerrickTerran]

And we learn a little more about V. I'm wondering where the Giant is heading with this though.

[Liliedhe]

I did not expect that. At all.

Nice twist. Very evil. *tips hat*

[RMS Oceanic]

Now that I've got over the shock of that:

I suspect that the Dragon, as a double-digit sorceror, knows Teleport, and this can reach V's kids in a jiffy. If V is to truly descend into darkness, then this would be a very good motive for accepting Qaar's help.

[silvadel]

That dragon is an idiot(or really smart).

Letting V know beforehand is a real rookie mistake. You dont let someone like V know you are gunning for his family (unless you do not know V has any in which case the dragon just got important information and might be able to track V back to his/her family).

----

IMHO this is all done/instigated by the imp. Give V something V is willing to sell V's soul for -- protecting V's kids.

[NotNale]

Wait, V has ... children?

This doesn't look good.

Oh well, perhaps now we'll find out if they call hir mama or papa.

[Trixie]

Children? Imagine the epileptic trees people will come up with.

Lirian is V's daughter! :P

[Mc. Lovin']

That clinches it. V is female.

Evil female, but still female :smallamused:

Um, guys can be parents as well :smallconfused:

[Rutskarn]

Ah HO-LY crap.

This...

Rich! You got some 'splainin to do.

[Copacetic]

Holy Plot-twist, Batman! Still, Excellent Comic

[Hurkyl]

It will be amusing to see V caged in his own forcecage....

I imagine V's mate as appearing very girly, but of the type where you can't really tell if it's a girl or a very girly guy.

Incidentally, does this mean the dragon remembers the oracle's a kobold, or are we just using our 4-th wall powers?

[RMS Oceanic]

It will be amusing to see V caged in his own forcecage....

I imagine V's mate as appearing very girly, but of the type where you can't really tell if it's a girl or a very girly guy.

Incidentally, does this mean the dragon remembers the oracle's a kobold, or are we just using our 4-th wall powers?

I suspect the Memory Charm doesn't work on Dragons. If Tiamat gave Dragons an Oracle, why would She make them forget what he looks like?

[PhantomFox]

It will be amusing to see V caged in his own forcecage....

I was thinking the same thing.

In any case, this dragon is too awesome. We need a name for her PRONTO!

Suggestions? I have a black dragon from the Dragoncave thingy called Noirgoth. Not too bad.

[SPoD]

It will be amusing to see V caged in his own forcecage....

Forcecage is dismissable at will by the caster, so it would take V exactly one round to escape.


Incidentally, does this mean the dragon remembers the oracle's a kobold, or are we just using our 4-th wall powers?

Given that the Oracle's purpose seems to be to serve dragons, there is probably a dragon-only exception to the Memory Charm spell.

[Trixie]

Um, guys can be parents as well :smallconfused:

First, the comic's title was "Mother's" at first, and second, if stories about elves told as anything, it's that evil elves have to be female in order to care about anyone :smalltongue:

[Ted The Bug]

V has kids?
This is gonna be great...

[vampire2948]

Hmm...poor dragon, people forget that monsters have parents too. :smallfrown:

[SteveMB]

Hmm...poor dragon, people forget that monsters have parents too. :smallfrown:

Start of Darkness reference:
Somebody else with the same grievance as Redcloak (i.e. being seen as nothing but a walking bundle of XP).

[IsaacTheHungry]

*Twitch twitch*

:smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:
:smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

[NeonRonin]

V's got KIDS?!?

Gaaaahhhh... So... many... questions...

And no Belkar to be tormented by said questions, either.

Makes you wonder what else V's friends don't know. (Or us, for that matter.)

[RebelRogue]

Another great strip. Once again, the collective Playground had figured out a lot of the details, and yet Rich manages to surprise!

[GoC]

Why doesn't the dragon just get V to pay for a true ressurection?

[Connor Darkdart]

Meh, I agree that this is no example of V's gender. And honestly can't feel sad for the dragon.

[Llama231]

Maybe V is asexual, and thus the only parent, and since it is children, plural, than V's spouse is too.:smalltongue:

[CelebrenIthil]

*throws theory in for the sake of it*

Maybe the dragon simply assumes V has children and might be proven wrong.

Also maybe the dragon means to rip any reproductive organ from V- thus killing hur (is that the correct word? XD) "children". >_>

Anyways, V is my favorite character but I do agree with the dragon. The thing that always irked me with D&D is that (at least in the hands of the common DMs and players (and mostly in D&D based videogames)) every creature seems to solely exist as stuff you must defeat. You can genocide a dozen races and it's just normal: that's what adventurers do. Anyways, most of those stuff are just mindless evil monsters and will attack you on sight anyways. Even when they are of an high intelligence they are often portrayed as "Oh greetings adventurers, I shall eat you nao. Rawr!".
But what about these creature's feelings, their attachement to their next of kin and everything? In the entire kobold clan you are wiping, isn't there families? Babies and children? Won't any will try to protect their wounded, or avenge their deaths? Won't they surrender?

I hate how as a high-level adventurer you can just barge in front of a century-old dragon and just go "Pew I keel u 4 ur moniez!" and that's all there is to it.

Here V and the gang just killed a youngling dragon but this time it had actually a parent and it actually cared (no matter it is a black dragon and all the crap about color=evil=unable to love). Of course the young dragon attacked them too but it was protecting their hoard.
And now that mommy dragon lost her child forever.
I side with her- despite the fact I would extract retribution upon the culprit and not innocent people but I understand her anger and grief-based logic of "You ripped my children from me, I'll rip your children from you."

[Superglucose]

Lol this reminds me of my most recent gaming session. We'd killed a young-adult red dragon, and the party necro turned it into a zombie. Well, it flew off and went home... and mommy came by to visit. Now as a level 5 party we have a great wyrm red dragon that really, REALLY wants us dead.

[ericgrau]

Okay, I predicted page 1, but then came page 2.

<Jaw drops, long pause> Bloody brilliant and I'm not even British!

This is like the end of empire strikes back except what it would be like after the fans debated endlessly about something related, and the question was still unanswered.

Btw, V is married and from this I presume he already has children from her pre-adventuring days.

[Hurkyl]

By the way, the acid saliva is a nice touch!

[Bonecrusher Doc]

*throws theory in for the sake of it*

Maybe the dragon simply assumes V has children and might be proven wrong.

Also maybe the dragon means to rip any reproductive organ from V- thus killing hur (is that the correct word? XD) "children". >_>


Celebrenithil, you beat me to it. While I doubt this is the case, I wanted to mention it as a possibility. Though I suppose Regenerate could remedy such damage.

[Mauve Shirt]

Haha. Like the oracle bit.
V's children will not call him "mother" or "father".

[Mando Knight]

Given that the Oracle's purpose seems to be to serve dragons, there is probably a dragon-only exception to the Memory Charm spell.

The Oracle may also give a hefty discount to those in Her Majesty's Secret (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnHerMajestysSecretService) Service...

Also, V'S GOT CHILDREN? :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

Why doesn't the dragon just get V to pay for a true ressurection?
Elf Wizard blood might go for a high price, you never know.

[Rakim Avishot]

First, the comic's title was "Mother's" at first, and second, if stories about elves told as anything, it's that evil elves have to be female in order to care about anyone :smalltongue:

So? It's a mother's worst nightmare for her children to die. That doesn't mean that it can't be a guy's as well. Plus, it could be referring to the Dragon Mother (the nightmare being that a horde of adventurers bursts into your house while you're away, Disintegrates your son and steals your thousand-year-old hunk of metal).

[Chaomancer]

That dragon is an idiot(or really smart).

Letting V know beforehand is a real rookie mistake. You dont let someone like V know you are gunning for his family (unless you do not know V has any in which case the dragon just got important information and might be able to track V back to his/her family).

----

IMHO this is all done/instigated by the imp. Give V something V is willing to sell V's soul for -- protecting V's kids.

It's a rookie mistake, and one the dragon was careful not to commit. That's why she didn't attack earlier, but waited for V to use high level spells; this way she can be sure of getting V quickly and easily. As, in fact, she did.

Thus, I doubt she's messing up her vengeance by using this carefully gained chance just to monologue. She'll be going for V's children right now, either a) teleporting off to do it (confident that V can't follow at the moment, being out of relevant spells. Or, b) taking V along, helpless, to watch her vengeance. I'd guess b, myself, as it seems both more satisfying for the readers and for the dragon.

[Mr. Pin]

I was thinking the same thing.

In any case, this dragon is too awesome. We need a name for her PRONTO!

Suggestions? I have a black dragon from the Dragoncave thingy called Noirgoth. Not too bad.

Of course the dragon will be named Ancalagon the Black! ALL black dragons should be named Ancalagon the Black!

[Chris Opperman]

The story with the dragon starts here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html

I was going to post and ask if anyone knew where V killed the first dragon, but I got lucky and found it myself. Hope you're all having a lovely Sunday.

Chris Opperman

[Elfich]

Now is the time when we cut back to Roy, Elan/Durkon, Haley/Belkar, Nale, or Xykon.

[Kaytara]

...I think I'm going to have to go with 'Bwuh?!'.

While the dragon presents to us a real tale of woe, the young dragon DID attack them on sight. Presumably. The Order can't really be blamed for defending itself.

As such, it's really sad that Vaarsuvius is now being punished for something that was, if anyone's, Nale's fault. It wasn't V's idea to go on the Starmetal quest, after all.

Now... This is really shocking. I think it also pretty much tosses out the window the possibility of Vaarsuvius being 103 like in Origins or '130?' like in Blues. For V to have married AND scored a few elflings while being dedicated to arcane research, V would need to be a bit older than that, I think.

And I second the notion that the dragon probably should have asked the Oracle "Where can I find a 17th level Cleric who can cast True Resurrection?" instead. Maybe she's planning to do it after the vengeance part.

[hamishspence]

I think given the amount of focus we are getting, chances of this whole thing (Qaar & the dragon) being V hallucinating is decreasing significantly.

Also- the color change on V- is it the antimagic? I think thats more likely than just shadow of the dragon, since most of the time we don't get shadows in this strip.

Age- technically elves mature not that much slower than humans. Though there is the jokey comment in Origin about decades in diapers. Maybe when V began the quest, V was unaware that mate was pregant?

[Elfey]

Lots of theories people had proven right by this. Whose Mama the dragon was, the Oracle, etc.

Course now it becomes how many children V has if any. I doubt the gender question will be answered because now it's just a great running joke.

I think either the dragon will trap V somehow, or doesn't need to regenerate spells before she goes and ravages Our Elf's home.

[bluedolphin359]

*throws theory in for the sake of it*

Maybe the dragon simply assumes V has children and might be proven wrong.

Also maybe the dragon means to rip any reproductive organ from V- thus killing hur (is that the correct word? XD) "children". >_>

Did you see the look on V's face? There are definitely children.

[Tobimaro]

(Hmm, I wonder if my insurance covers mental whiplash from all of the plot twists that have been coming from OotS.) :smalleek:

Now THIS is a plot twist. Well played, Giant!

And I can now hear the anguished cry from Belkar, from having missed this new bit of information about his rival.

[jidasfire]

Is it just me, or is there an ongoing theme in OOTS that if you've ever killed a monster while playing D&D, you're a bad person and you should feel bad?

[Morty]

While the dragon presents to us a real tale of woe, the young dragon DID attack them on sight. Presumably. The Order can't really be blamed for defending itself.

As such, it's really sad that Vaarsuvius is now being punished for something that was, if anyone's, Nale's fault. It wasn't V's idea to go on the Starmetal quest, after all.


Well, Black Dragons are still evil. I say it's nothing strange for an evil person to have a skewed sense of justice. Also, the young dragon probably attacked them on sight because he thought "adventurers, they're going to kill me". So we face a self-closing circle here.


Is it just me, or is there an ongoing theme in OOTS that if you've ever killed a monster while playing D&D, you're a bad person and you should feel bad?

Only if you wish to inerpret it that way.

[MReav]

I don't think V'll achieve ultimate arcane power to save V's kids. V'll do it for revenge.

[Rakim Avishot]

V's got KIDS?!?

Gaaaahhhh... So... many... questions...

And no Belkar to be tormented by said questions, either.

Makes you wonder what else V's friends don't know. (Or us, for that matter.)

Wait- You guys didn't know V was a parent?

Haley probably knows everything about V, since she and hir seem to have a clo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html)se (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html)bo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html)nd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html).

[hamishspence]

its closer to "killing a monster for no reason/because it was there"

Remember that when V killed the dragon, it had been Charmed. Admittedly it was on the last round, but still, a charmed monster is considered the moral equivalent of a helpless prisoner.

However, in D&D using either BoVD or BoED, killing evil dragons purely for money or some other nefarious reason, is Neutral rather than Evil. So maybe for an Always Evil creature (and only an Always Evil creature), certain rules are waived.

[Kaytara]

In other news, Qarr has disappeared.

In the previous strip we clearly see him on the left side of the cage on the sand, and now there's nothing.

[The_Void]

Giant, this strip proves that you are a God.


Why doesn't the dragon just get V to pay for a true ressurection?

Didn't Haley or someone mention that the only cleric high-level enough for True Ressurection was Redcloak?

[Wakky]

Good comic, nice twist, but shouldn't there have been a spot of humor? Even a little one?

[goodyarn]

Hats off, Giant. Another great skein in your really awesome web.

[hamishspence]

some situations are Serious Business. Soon's speech to Miko, for eample. Others, a little humor helps offset the shock: Xykon's massacre of the Sapphire Guard- but with a bouncy ball.

Here, I think Drama has the floor.

[Forias]

Remember that when V killed the dragon, it had been Charmed. Admittedly it was on the last round, but still, a charmed monster is considered the moral equivalent of a helpless prisoner.
In Comic Strip 181, Haley and the others tried to run away. One can assume that the dragon did not let them, because there's a fight going on by 182.

Good does not have to equal stupid. Abandoning a temporary advantage over an incredibly dangerous opponent who has a proven inclination to attack on sight, in order to talk to them once more would be stupid. V had one round left. If she didn't attack, there's a fair chance the OotS would have been wiped out.

[Rakim Avishot]

I was thinking the same thing.

In any case, this dragon is too awesome. We need a name for her PRONTO!

Suggestions? I have a black dragon from the Dragoncave thingy called Noirgoth. Not too bad.

I already posted that her name should be MODD (Mother Of Disintegrated Dragon), or MOAVDM (Massively Ornery And Vengeful Dragon Mother). MODD is more fluid, but MOAVDM is a cooler title. :smallcool:

[Forealms]

Oooooh, I just had an idea!!

Here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) the Oracle said that he had an important client flying in. Since both the Oracle and the dragon share reptilian history (I'm counting "dragon" as reptilian, just hang with me for a minute), then the Oracle would be happy to help the dragon (Or just because it is an important client). The dragon could have asked "Where can I find the one who killed my [insert relationship/acquaintance title]?". The Oracle then would have told the dragon, and perhaps because of the aforementioned reptilian history (or, again, just because he likes the client), the Oracle threw in the Vaarsuvius' name as well.

It might be stretching a bit, but it's not totally unlikely.

:smallbiggrin: I got it right! I've now got a nice 2:187 record for guessing correctly!

[kreszantas]

Well, V backstory that was :smallsigh: I will be taking a nap while we now have another 200 comic subplot added to the 100 sub-subplots already running. :smallconfused:

[Mortith]

wow...

Now i think Quarr might have some way to protect the children if V joins him.

I love how one moment I think i know whats about to happen in OOTS and the next I have been thrown off and can't wait for the next comic!

[Kish]

Is it just me, or is there an ongoing theme in OOTS that if you've ever killed a monster while playing D&D, you're a bad person and you should feel bad?
It's more like a theme of, "If your reaction to seeing an intelligent creature of a 'monster' race in a D&D game is to treat it as XP fodder, your character is a bad person, and you should feel bad if you wrote down a Good alignment for him or her."

[hamishspence]

I wonder if the dragon counts as a "side" for the purpose of the whole Gates thing? Given that the dragon knows a lot about V, its possible it might be getting involved in the Snarl plot as well.

[RMS Oceanic]

I just noticed when I went back to #186 to reread.


The wheels on the bus go round and round...

Could that have been a veiled threat that he would be avenged? That would have been pretty awesome.

[Mortith]

I don't think V'll achieve ultimate arcane power to save V's kids. V'll do it for revenge.

That sounds possible,

V will achieve ultimate arcane power when he/her says

The right 4 words,
At the right time, (hopfully soon)
to the right person, (maybe quarr or the dragon)

for all the wrong reasons. (to save V's children, to get revenge on someone)

Just throwing out a guess.

[vampire2948]

Why would saving her children be a 'wrong' reason? I think revenge fits it well though.

[Pentegarn]

Hats off to this one. A very compelling twist indeed.

[Milanius]

Oh. Oh, my. I am ****ing loving this.

Panel before this one was nothing but pure black draconic RAGE. Now? It's beyond rage and into murder in cold blood-methodically chop-dispose into dumpsters kind of growling, heart-clenching fury.

V is learning really hard, really fast, that every single thing he/she and his/her former associates did comes with a price.

[timbot]

First thought: "Whaaat?"
Second thought: "Riiich!"
Third thought: "Will we uncover the mystery of gender (which I still hold to be female)?"
Final thought: "The children are going to see her and both exclaim different genders (i.e. "Mom!" "Dad!"), and is going to be a joke, with the children arguing over which parental figure V is."

Also, I must yet again congratulate you, Rich, for having a storytelling mind far beyond mine and most of the world.

[hamishspence]

Under Sympathetic Villain in Exemplars of Evil, the quote is:

"They killed my children. Can you blame me for wanting to kill theirs?"

(also- if we treat the dragons lair, unlike Dorukan's home, as not stolen property but actual private residence, the Order went there with the sole intention of taking the dragon's property, and killed the dragon in the process. Technically homicide, even if the dragon attacked them first, since killing while committing a felony is murder)

Now D&D probably makes exceptions for Always Evil creatures, still, it does show the Moral Dissonance, especially since in some traditions killing a burglar who has broken into your home at night is not murder.

It is these days though.

[Eraniverse]

Remember that when V killed the dragon, it had been Charmed. Admittedly it was on the last round, but still, a charmed monster is considered the moral equivalent of a helpless prisoner.

Call me crazy but wasn't the joke in that strip that V's excessive verbage wasted what little time was left, but it didn't matter because of fresh spells?

Also by your reasoning any number of disabling spells would be evil in that the target is helpless until hit for a short duration. Suggestion could not be used to make the dragon imprison itself. Attacking a person under suggestion is no more evil than a surprise round as they are perfectly capable of defending themselves afterwards. Just because V's attack was too strong for the dragon to survive doesn't make it evil even if it weren't a black dragon.

Proof: Roy Coup de Gracing sleeping goblins (who I might add hadn't even initiated combat with the party) isn't even mentioned by the afterlife arbiter.

So yea none of this prisoner alignment crap.

[Bitzeralisis]

V has children!? :smalleek:

[Tyrmatt]

Rich Burlew is a cruel man for posting these things one at time...

Seem's like V will take Quarr up on his offer in order to pump his power up to the right level to take on the (presumeably) far more badass dragon than before in order to save his family. The question is, once the goal is achieved, will he be strong enough to cast off the ultimate power for the sake of his own elvanity?

[Lissou]

Wow.
Didn't realise V had kids, but seeing the expression on his face, I think he does.

Might be the great sacrifice one of them had to make...

Also, I hope we'll see V's mate then. And kids, of course.

EDIT: Oh, and of course, the second page isn't "full", which make anticipation stronger.

[Poit-Narf]

Woah. Just... woah.

That is one pissed off dragon.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Wait... so we get both an epic villain anda look at V's backstory? Awesome! :smallbiggrin: I love this dragon.

[Zack Norglad]

These last coupe of comics have been great!
Children?
Such an unexpected turn of events!
One thing tough:
This doesn't mean that V has children: Maybe the dragon just assumed that V has children?

[Kaytara]

:smallbiggrin: I got it right! I've now got a nice 2:187 record for guessing correctly!

Sorry to burst your bubble but it was Webox who first mentioned the Oracle client idea back here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5702615&postcount=19), as early as in the 626 discussion thread.


This is one hell of a cliffhanger.

Speculation ahoy.Hmm... maybe that was the "Important Client" the oracle mentioned a while back, who went there to ask him who disintegrated his son/relative.

[Gilby]

No worries. V's mate is a demi-god, and the kids are probably higher lvl than the Orders average party level :D

[VampireRot]

As much as V is a main charecter/PC, I'm on the dragon's side. Her story is touching. And of course, the semi-evil "eye for an eye" thing she is doing is great too. *sigh* Unfortunatly, since V is a main charecter the dragon's plan will be ruined somehow, probably due to V making a deal with Quar and gaining ultimate power.

[The_Void]

These last coupe of comics have been great!
Children?
Such an unexpected turn of events!
One thing tough:
This doesn't mean that V has children: Maybe the dragon just assumed that V has children?

Yeah, but that would be the biggest anticlimax ever.

[David Argall]

I could've sworn the original comic title was 'A mother's worst nightmare'.
I thought so too. Of course I do have a tendency to skip words and assume the "obvious" word is used, but such is my memory, and apparently the memory of others.

As to those protesting males are parents too, the presumption that the mother-child bond is much stronger is the default assumption, and for good reason. Not that we can consider it automatic [My father was raised by his father, not his mother who wandered off trying to find herself or something.], but it should be assumed to be much the greater.

In any case, those saying V is female have another string to their bow.



Of course.....
Now is the time when we cut back to Roy, Elan/Durkon, Haley/Belkar, Nale, or Xykon.
Our writer is not one for cliffhangers. We did not cut away when Haley was helpless and in danger of immediate dicing and Belkar might be about to be cured. We cut when everything was "quiet", and might stay that way for some time. We left Elan and V when she went off to bed, not when they were battling the devil. O'Chul was not left over the acid, or at the edge of the rift. We left when he was going to sleep.
So we will be sticking with V for another strip, and likely for several more.

Maybe quite a few more. At this point in W&XP, I was assuming a successful defense, and was seeing this was hard to do in the remaining space. Now we are getting tight for space in the current volume, and something is introduced that could run for a hundred pages. I start to worry Roy is going to stay on the sidelines for another book.



Maybe the dragon simply assumes V has children and might be proven wrong.
Definitely a possibility in theory. V is a young elf, and having children, not child, at his age is pushing it. Given Origin "20 years in diapers", V would have knocked up/been knocked up about "age 14". It happens, but it doesn't fit easily into what we know of V's history.

But it's too easy. We have this build-up and it is over right away? No, that is not likely to happen. V has some brats running around and they are in serious danger.

Now the dragon may not be around for too long. She may still be serving mainly as a way to get a new familiar for V. But we do have the chance she will be doing quite a bit of battling vs V.

Of course, the coloring this time is "off". Those who want to talk about illusions or delusions have some grounds now. [Not that it is clear it means anything. It could be that there is a bug in our writer's artist program and the change is just a work-around.]


Also maybe the dragon means to rip any reproductive organ from V- thus killing hur (is that the correct word? XD) "children". >_>
Too easy to cure, and too academic. While there are many who talk of the "sorrows" of not having children to work and worry yourself into an early grave over [where they grumble about you not leaving them a bigger estate], those without children manage to hold themselves together with new cars, expensive vacations,... for the most part. Being deprived of the pain of children hurts far more.


But what about these creature's feelings, their attachement to their next of kin and everything?
I am not concerned about the feelings of a man-eating tiger. If you wish to be part of its diet, that is your business.


I hate how as a high-level adventurer you can just barge in front of a century-old dragon and just go "Pew I keel u 4 ur moniez!" and that's all there is to it.
A lot of us prefer the more complex moral situations, but within reason, the adventurer is in the right.


Of course the young dragon attacked them too but it was protecting their hoard.
Rather obviously not morally adequate. While we might question the willingness of the party to be peaceful, there were ways to both allow them to show any peaceful intent, or to just warn them they were not to do certain things. So the dragon loses any moral safety here.

[Lira]

Of course, the coloring this time is "off". Those who want to talk about illusions or delusions have some grounds now. [Not that it is clear it means anything. It could be that there is a bug in our writer's artist program and the change is just a work-around.] The anti-magic field is turning everything inside it to a duller colour. It's not a mistake, it's clearly on purpose.

[Chaomancer]

An added bit of poetic justice I noticed rereading the original dragon-killing story: the young dragon did try to parlay. Not with the bipeds that invaded it's lair to steal it's treasure, of course, but with V (in his lizard form).

V's response to finding there was an intelligent being she could communicate with was, of course, to use magic to over-ride it's will, and then (when he was done with it), she disintegrated it.

But the kid tried to talk, and it seemed at least open to discussion at that point. Makes me more sympathetic to Mommy, here.

[ss49]

Niiiice twist.

[Athaniar]

:eek:

I wondered why the forums were so slow, then I began to wonder if a new comic might be up. Of course, it was, so I went to check it out. Then I found out why the forums were slow. They are flooded by the awesome that is OOTS #628.

[NamonakiRei]

Oh my. Oh my. OH MY!!! :smalleek: V has children?!?!?!?!?! I... on gods, I can believe it! (well, I can but... eh, you get what I mean...)... wow... poor dragoness, poor of her. It's the most awful thing, to lose a son. I always thought it was kind of mean to kill the dragon(when I knew it was on its draconic teens) but... I NEVER thought his parents would be involved. Heck, I thought his parents were long gone! I know, crazy, but still... oh gosh... V's children... poor V... poor V, too... I don't know who to side with! :smallfrown: poor both!

I have a baaad feeling... a seriouslu BAD feeling about this. Like this story is going to end far too soon for my liking. Wow... wow... :smallsigh:

That and moral issues aside, I hope to see V's mate and children. I also hope they end up alive :smalleek: otherwise, I don't want to think what V would do...
Also, if the original title was "A mother's worst nightmare" it does not meant it was talking about V. Could be the dragon. (Not that I think V is male, I don't have a real side on those debates.) Or could be V. Oh god... now I can't wait!!!

Great comic, Giant, even though a dramatic, sad one.

[Seraph]

...I think I'm going to have to go with 'Bwuh?!'.

While the dragon presents to us a real tale of woe, the young dragon DID attack them on sight. Presumably. The Order can't really be blamed for defending itself.

so you hold the opinion that if potential thieves and murderers break into your home, you have no right to defend yourself?

[Puppeteer]

I wonder if this is all a mind game pulled out by Rich.
Probably the dragon even asked the Oracle if V had children and where she could find them, if so why not try to trick her into thinking Belkar is V's son?
The little kobold doesn't have much sympathy for the little bugger, that's for sure, and revenge is a dish best served...dissolved, in this case.

Naaah, too far fetched, is it?
Anyway, very good strip and nice cliffhanger.

[MickJay]

Excellent strip, great build-up and a really strong conclusion.

Anyone taking bets on dragon's chances to make her "promise" come true? :smallamused:

If it happened, it could be the price paid for reuniting the order, but that's a bit far-fetched.

[Baalthazaq]

As to those protesting males are parents too, the presumption that the mother-child bond is much stronger is the default assumption, and for good reason. Not that we can consider it automatic [My father was raised by his father, not his mother who wandered off trying to find herself or something.], but it should be assumed to be much the greater.
Why?
I've heard this argument before, but the initiator very rarely sticks by the claims when introduced to logical conclusions such as:
1) If you're arguing hormones and chromosomes: Then women should be the ones looking after the kids, after all they're giving them the more loving environment.
2) If you're arguing physical bond: Adopted kids are loved less.

Parent's worst nightmare is appropriate. I think if it was "Mother's" to begin with he may have been referencing the Dragon, and then decided to include V, or thought "They'll read too much into that".



Definitely a possibility in theory. V is a young elf, and having children, not child, at his age is pushing it. Given Origin "20 years in diapers", V would have knocked up/been knocked up about "age 14". It happens, but it doesn't fit easily into what we know of V's history.
What we know of V's history includes that he was married.
Twins are still a possibility in Elves as far as I know.

[Athaniar]

Another crazy theory: what if what the dragon means is that V is pregnant? She said she would destroy both V and children.

[Shadowcaller]

Another crazy theory: what if what the dragon means is that V is pregnant? She said she would destroy both V and children.

Well unless elfs have a very long pregnancy I think thats quite impossible. Unless V have had intercourse with someone behind the scenes that is:smallwink:.

[King of Nowhere]

So noy only V is married, also has children???
So... many... OTHER... questions...

[Selene]

Uh-oh! Think fast, man. She's going after your kids! :smalleek:

[vampire2948]

Another crazy theory: what if what the dragon means is that V is pregnant? She said she would destroy both V and children.

Also the dragon said it wasn't going to kill V, at least, not yet, anyway.

[Kaytara]

Another crazy theory: what if what the dragon means is that V is pregnant? She said she would destroy both V and children.
I'm not sure what the gestation period is for elves (isn't it about a year?) but the Order has been adventuring together for at least one and a half year at this point. If Vaarsuvius had gotten knocked up shortly before joining them V would certainly be at least showing by now.
Not to mention that killing V's kids would be the same as killing V, which is something she is explicitly not going to do yet.


so you hold the opinion that if potential thieves and murderers break into your home, you have no right to defend yourself?

The Order had no idea that the starmetal shrine was the home of a dragon, they weren't aware of any boundaries they were intruding in. In fact, given Haley's reaction upon seeing the dragon, she was apparently aware that they were outmatched by an opponent like that. If they had known beforehand they likely would have tried subterfuge instead or even offered to trade with the dragon.

Not to mention that the magical darkness at the entrance had been obviously created by the dragon, for whom it is a racial ability. It pretty much constitutes a trap.

Now the Order may or may not care very much about attacking sentient monsters, but the same can be said of the dragon, who regarded them as "stupid humanoids" and saw no reason to try and bargain with them or convince them to leave when it could just kill them. In short, Mama Dragon's criticism of V is pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

[Moose Fisher]

Twistier than M. Night Shyamalan!:smalltongue:

Knowing Rich, the fact V has children will still not prove his/her gender. If his/her kids show up, they'll likely use a gender neutral title to refer to V.

For additional speculation, the dragoness could be referring to 'killing' V's capacity to have children.:smalleek:

[SinsI]

That clinches it. V is female.
Nah, V is going to be castrated.

[Geno9999]

V. Has. Kids. What the playground? Of course, the elf did mention s/he was married.
Oh, and the motive behind "I'll kill all your kids."goes along the lines of an Old Testament teaching; Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
You killed all my kids (all of one of them), so I'm gonna kill all your kids (all of X, which is the unknown number.)

[Sebastian]

I just had a funny thought. What if V's children are ...

hir spellbooks?
It would be quite anticlimatic and yet still cruel and funny as hell, after all destroy the spellbook is still the worst thing you can do to a D&D wizard.

And "nice green dragon girl"? you mean green and black dragons can ... you know, "fraternize"? I know that teenagers screw everything that move, but that is a little weird. :smalleek:

[Scion_of_Darkness]

I honestly hope the dragon is actually after V's kids. Removing V's ability to have kids seems to be too crude, and I don't think Mr. Burlew is going for that. Its honestly about time that V had a reoccurring nemesis of her own and I hope this dragon is it.

[EvilJames]

So much for "Getting back to the main adventure.":smallamused: Though morally, I've got little sympathy for momma dragon here. Sure, the party just invaded the Black dragon's house, but if you attack someone with intent to kill just for walking in your front door, and get killed in return, I can't help but feel like you had it coming. So yeah, little sympathy, especially when you're a freakin' dragon.

He attacked someone with intent to kill someone who he had every reason to believe would try to kill him. He was a dragon and every dragon knows, adventurers are dangerous (as the mother said, his father was killed by adventurers) So I can't say he "had it coming" based on that. Now he may have still "had it coming" from some other atrocity he may have committed (evil dragon and all that) But it's quite easy to have sympathy based on the info we have.

[King of Nowhere]

Remiving V's ability to procreate won't have any real effect: a regeneration can cover it.
In fact, even killing hir children might not prove that bad, with the resurrection part (still not nice, though).
I too got the impression, reading the first time, that V is a she, is pregnant and the dragon will tear her belly, thus killing the children (and no resurrection in this case).
I tought this because I had the impression V shows a little belly, but now I reread and found it was a perspective effect created by the dragon's claws.
I don't know the gestation time of elves, and regardless of what is written in manuals Rich may have houseruled it. V's robe shows little, so if V got pregnant just before going out adventuring and the time for elves is 2,5 years or more, it may work...
Of course, it's just a tought. I was going to write that I don't expect it to be that way, but Rich can surprise us to a wide degree, so no betting.

[carabaldo]

As always, if you start to apply common sense to heroic fantasy you don't have adventurers...
you have racist-murderous-grave robbing-thieving bullies

[hamishspence]

Some settings do play up "monsters are people too". Planescape, and 3rd ed core D&D in some places- Sigil, Union, The City of Brass, etc.

Since 3.5 ed especially, there has been a strong theme of "needs more justification for killing them to be Not Evil" With Dragons being a rare exception.

[Jeivar]

For the moral debates taking place in this thread:

No matter how bereaved the dragon mommy might be, that gives her no right to take it out on someone who had nothing to do with the death of her son: V's kids. I could understand if she tore V limb from limb, but going after innocents makes her evil, and totally in the wrong.

[Lichtouch]

V has a spouse, therefore V could have children.

[hamishspence]

true- vengeance has always been considered an evil motive in D&D for a killing- any killing.

which makes the idea of creatures consumed by vengeance (revenants) being Always Neutral, odd.
(the revenant equivalent in 4th ed Open Grave is Evil)

Point I was making was that once V knew they were trespassing, and had rendered the dragon temporarily harmless, choosing to remain and kill it was morally shaky.

[silvadel]

Of course the dragon will be named Ancalagon the Black! ALL black dragons should be named Ancalagon the Black!

Actually V still has a chance so long as the dragon is not named. You see what naming does for humans -- could you see what it would do for an ancient black dragon with class levels?

[Kyouhen]

In all honesty, based on how big of jerks we know dragons to be, we probably should have seen this coming.

And even if V tried to get someone to True Resurrect hir kids, momma D could just use the Oracle to find out when it'll happen and pop up the second the kids are brought back to nuke them again. Rinse, lather, repeat for the rest of V's life.

[warmachine]

The lesson, kiddies, is don't make a woman angry, especially if it concerns her children. They may be sweetness and light and lack the killer instinct but when they strike, they can make you really suffer.

[hamishspence]

Or worse- if info on V included the fact that the Order had destroyed a Gate, the dragon might take them to one of the rifts.

[tcrudisi]

For the moral debates taking place in this thread:

No matter how bereaved the dragon mommy might be, that gives her no right to take it out on someone who had nothing to do with the death of her son: V's kids. I could understand if she tore V limb from limb, but going after innocents makes her evil, and totally in the wrong.

I fail to follow your logic. Are you really implying that an evil black dragon should not do what you are claiming would make her evil? To me, it would seem that's perfectly in line with a black dragon. Sure, the dragon may be "in the wrong" but why would she care?

[Roderick_BR]

hah, the part about the ghost was fun. And now we know the time, more or less of when the black dragon contacted the oracle.

.... V's children? Wow, V have not only a partner, but a whole family! The plot thickens!


Edit: For the record, here's the comic where the oracle deals with Roy, and says that he has an important visit to arrive: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

[tcrudisi]

Or worse- if info on V included the fact that the Order had destroyed a Gate, the dragon might take them to one of the rifts.

Ooohh, truly a nasty thought. That would be the ultimate punishment -- killing off V's kids by a method which V failed to prevent (destruction of the gates) and which prevents ressurection (death by Snarl).

The only question I have though, is if it is possible. If Snarl could reach out of those gates right now, wouldn't that mean he could completely escape? Likewise, if there's a big enough hole to throw some kids into, would the dragon risk doing that and alert Snarl to the holes in the cell?

[fractal]

With regards to True Resurrection, "I'm not even sure there ARE any 17th-level Clerics in the world!"

I'm thinking that possibly "Every Mother's Worst Nightmare" is adventurers invading her cave, Disintegrating her offspring, and stealing her hoard. Isn't that something your mother worries about?

Along those lines, the Order really should have had a wake-up call when they found the hoard and discovered how large it was relative to the expected treasure of a Young Adult Black Dragon. That bothered me at the time, but I figured that "huge dragon hoard" was just a stereotype. Nope! They actually stole the hoard of an Ancient Black Dragon, and should have been expecting trouble.

[Lichtouch]

Oh, and this seems so very... silly.
Mainly because it just seems like Qarr will go "Psst, wanna make that pact now", V will go "sure" and the dragon will get blasted away like a highly disposable plot device.

[Larspcus2]

An added bit of poetic justice I noticed rereading the original dragon-killing story: the young dragon did try to parlay. Not with the bipeds that invaded it's lair to steal it's treasure, of course, but with V (in his lizard form).

V's response to finding there was an intelligent being she could communicate with was, of course, to use magic to over-ride it's will, and then (when he was done with it), she disintegrated it.

But the kid tried to talk, and it seemed at least open to discussion at that point. Makes me more sympathetic to Mommy, here.

Meh
The fact that the dragon was pwning the rest of V's party at the time is kind of a mitigating circumstance =/

[Kioran]

Well, V had it coming. But couldn't the dragon just kill V?

Still good.

[Jeivar]

I fail to follow your logic. Are you really implying that an evil black dragon should not do what you are claiming would make her evil? To me, it would seem that's perfectly in line with a black dragon. Sure, the dragon may be "in the wrong" but why would she care?

Uh, I'm not suggesting she cares. She's Evil, after all. I'm just saying she's not justified in HOW she's carrying out her revenge.

[Couatl]

Am I the only one who thinks that V's children are actually a metaphor for something else. for example his spellbooks?

[Lord Vukodlak]

It would be interesting meeting V's kids but still dodging the issue of V's gender. Titles like mom or dad would be a dead give away. They'd probably use words like parental unit. Of course that assumes we even get that far.

The Imp could still potentially rescue V.
V maybe to intelligent to make a pact with a demon for power's own sake. However V would likely sacrifice everything for his children.

Yes the order invaded the dragons home, and yes they killed one young dragon. However Chromatic dragons acquire their hordes usually by killing and stealing it from other people. So if someone breaks into your house filled with treasure acquired by suffering, destruction and death. You don't really have the self defense high ground.

[Anteros]

Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't a rich and powerful dragon, who is also a high level spellcaster and is friends with an incredibly powerful oracle, be better suited to just getting a ressurection for their son?

[GTRanger]

Maybe this is just a dumb question (and I'm aware that Rich probably often doesn't follow D&D rules), but about the dragon caring for its child...didn't a bunch of people post in the thread for last comic saying this exact situation couldn't happen because dragons in D&D or whatever CAN'T form family units or care about children or whatever?

And yeah, the true resurrection thing would seem to make sense, unless you need some sort of body part for that.

[permissionmag]

Rich has done a masterful turn here.

V has been slowly descending into dark territory for some time, so that by now it seems the search for the others is not borne of concern for their well-being, but from V's own ego as a magic user.

I know some people have said that V is a main character, and so will probably come out on top here, but I disagree.

A lot of people (myself included) have more sympathy for the dragon than for Varsuvius, especially when you go back and look at the strips (181-186) where the young dragon was killed. V had subdued the dragon, and they could have safely left without killing him. Considering that the OOTS was invading the dragon's home, it makes V both a home invader and a cold blooded murderer.

I'd be really satisfied with a story line that leads to V's downfall. What's the point of a story where you know a character will always be ok just because they're one of the protagonists?

I'm rooting for the dragon.

[tanonx]

They'd probably use words like parental unit.

I think they might use terms more akin to 'who the heck are you, and why did you manage to doom us all to this untimely demise we're staring at?'

I mean, really, how often did V break from adventuring to visit the family? Unless I've missed something present in the books, it's quite possible V hasn't seen V's family in years and more. They may well have been adopted from some kind of disaster, V using V's powers to keep them safe in a way only a PC Wizard can.

And for the record, my thoughts on seeing that last panel ran somewhere along the lines of 'Oh shi-'.

[Lupy]

I've decided I like the Dragon. A lot. Though even if I don't think much of V, I don't want his/her babies injured.

[Raenir Salazar]

question, according to the Fiendish Codex for Tyrants of the Nine Hells I don't think an Imp is very well equipped or able to grant ultimate arcane power (or the equivilent of say, 5 levels of archmage) or can they?

[Aristeidis]

Are you kidding me?!

V knew a tiny invisible imp was following him for a few days and he didn't notice a huge black dragon was following him for months?!!!

And what's the deal with scrying?! Any arcane spellcaster with V's level and inteligence score would have noticed that someone was scrying! Even if he rolled an untrained skill check we would most likely have succeeded!

Don't get me started on the obvious true ressurection....

My opinion: Very nice characters and roleplaying, seemingly vast stretch to the rules, unless explained... I don't think Rich Burlew showed us how V skillfully noticed the invisible imp to have him fail terribly without a reason...

[keldorn]

That sounds possible,

for all the wrong reasons. (to save V's children, to get revenge on someone)



You've missed out the key wrong reason

The revenge is on a chromatic dragon. What could be worse than that from the oracle's POV?

[thubby]

Are you kidding me?!

V knew a tiny invisible imp was following him for a few days and he didn't notice a huge black dragon was following him for months?!!!

And what's the deal with scrying?! Any arcane spellcaster with V's level and inteligence score would have noticed that someone was scrying! Even if he rolled an untrained skill check we would most likely have succeeded!

Don't get me started on the obvious true ressurection....

My opinion: Very nice characters and roleplaying, seemingly vast stretch to the rules, unless explained... I don't think Rich Burlew showed us how V skillfully noticed the invisible imp to have him fail terribly without a reason...

scrying is now a saving throw. one who's DC can be put well into insurmountable with a little work.
true resurrection with what? the dragon lost its horde, i think it's an arcane caster, and there aren't heaps of diamonds just laying around.
besides the fact that a dragon can observe from several times the distance of a human equivalent creature, while underwater indefinitely, it's obviously a very powerful mage, I would be hard pressed to think a sleep deprived and obviously distracted V could catch on to that.

[RMS Oceanic]

Are you kidding me?!

V knew a tiny invisible imp was following him for a few days and he didn't notice a huge black dragon was following him for months?!!!

And what's the deal with scrying?! Any arcane spellcaster with V's level and inteligence score would have noticed that someone was scrying! Even if he rolled an untrained skill check we would most likely have succeeded!

Don't get me started on the obvious true ressurection....

My opinion: Very nice characters and roleplaying, seemingly vast stretch to the rules, unless explained... I don't think Rich Burlew showed us how V skillfully noticed the invisible imp to have him fail terribly without a reason...

Said Invisible Imp was floating around V, and Invisibility doesn't stop you making noise. A natural 20 on a listen check would happen sooner or later.

Black Dragons can breathe underwater, so are capable of staying submerged as long as needed, using scrying spells to see what's going on. It's not that big a stretch.

[Lunaya]

:eek:

Not much more to say than that. Though, I kinda thought the dragon was referring to V's future children. Note the position of her foot in the last panel.

[tanonx]

Well, for starters, the imp was psysically there, while the dragon could be as off as it wanted, but more importantly, it's a frikin' dragon. Not exactly as helpless in the arena arcane as a tiny imp. It could likely shield it's scrying, or use another method entirely to spy on V.

And for True Resurrection... Finding a 17+ cleric of an evil alignment that's willing to listen might be tough, not to mention convincing it that you're worth it's time. That said and done, I'd imagine one could save the resurrection for after the revenge... If there's one thing I've learned about pathological obsessions in OotS, you don't stay perfectly level-headed.

[Anteros]

scrying is now a saving throw. one who's DC can be put well into insurmountable with a little work.
true resurrection with what? the dragon lost its horde, i think it's an arcane caster, and there aren't heaps of diamonds just laying around.
besides the fact that a dragon can observe from several times the distance of a human equivalent creature, while underwater indefinitely, it's obviously a very powerful mage, I would be hard pressed to think a sleep deprived and obviously distracted could catch on to that.

We know for a fact he knows the oracle, who clearly knows clerics capable of ressurection. And is procuring 5000g worth of diamonds really that hard for a powerful dragon?

[Aquillion]

Jeez, V, don't be a jerk. Offer to spring for a True Resurrection already.

[filiecs]

I'm 100% sure V's a girl because i recall in an earlier strip she and Haley ar in a room talking about crystal balls and the boys are outside listening and thinking rong.

[OracleofWuffing]

And is procuring 5000g worth of diamonds really that hard for a powerful dragon?
Circumstantially, it could be quite hard. If I was an evil dragon out to collect this sort of thing, I would head down to the closest city and do something there. So, let's see, the closest city with that kind of treasury would probably be Azure City.

...And that's probably not a good idea.

Granted, there are other places to loot, but whether or not they are reasonably close is information to be revealed.

[tanonx]

We know for a fact he knows the oracle, who clearly knows clerics capable of ressurection. And is procuring 5000g worth of diamonds really that hard for a powerful dragon?

So far as we can tell, the clerics are only capable of a regular Ressurection at best, and that's not going to help someone whose remains are now part of the swamp itself, and thus no more his remains than the dirt that was once a cadaver.

[MorhgorRB]

To quote Belkar : "So many questions..."

[Kyouhen]

For those complaining about whether or not the dragon is justified, let's remember one thing. It's a dragon. An ancient black dragon. The thing's probably lived long enough to see several kingdoms come into existence and fall. Do you think it cares about a lesser being's views of right and wrong? It wouldn't surprise me if the dragon decided to spare one of V's children just so it can go on and kill all of V's grandchildren too. Except one, so it could kill all of THAT generation. And so on and so forth until we have a whole family curse thing going.

[Sallera]

And "nice green dragon girl"? you mean green and black dragons can ... you know, "fraternize"? I know that teenagers screw everything that move, but that is a little weird. :smalleek:

According to the Draconomicon, it is possible, if rare. At any rate, that odd desire of seemingly all parents for grandchildren would no doubt cause the mother dragon to overlook such... inconsistencies. ^^;;

[Raith]

I know some people have said that V is a main character, and so will probably come out on top here, but I disagree.

I'd be really satisfied with a story line that leads to V's downfall. What's the point of a story where you know a character will always be ok just because they're one of the protagonists?



Well, we DO already know that Belkar has less than a year left to live, and Durkon won't live to see his homelands. Roy has already died. None of which are particularly happy-sounding...

Plus, the Oracle told Elan that the story would have a happy ending... for him, at least. Sort of implies that the story will NOT have a happy ending for some other PC(s).

So I agree. Rich seems to be aiming for variety here. V's falling to the dark side would be different. At best, I think V will turn back and realize the errors of his or her ways, but it will be at a terrible cost. And perhaps will be too late, as he or she will already be bound by the underworld's bargain.

[tcrudisi]

Well, we DO already know that Belkar has less than a year left to live, and Durkon won't live to see his homelands. Roy has already died. None of which are particularly happy-sounding...

Plus, the Oracle told Elan that the story would have a happy ending... for him, at least. Sort of implies that the story will NOT have a happy ending for some other PC(s).

It makes me wonder if people would be complaining about the comic being "too dark" if that prophesy was never made to Elan. That one prophesy told us a lot. If it were not made, I'm betting many people would be complaining that none of the OotS would survive, based on current trends.

[snafu]

For those complaining about whether or not the dragon is justified, let's remember one thing. It's a dragon. An ancient black dragon. The thing's probably lived long enough to see several kingdoms come into existence and fall. Do you think it cares about a lesser being's views of right and wrong? It wouldn't surprise me if the dragon decided to spare one of V's children just so it can go on and kill all of V's grandchildren too. Except one, so it could kill all of THAT generation. And so on and so forth until we have a whole family curse thing going.

Wouldn't be surprised. That's a long-standing tradition: sins of the fathers. Or mothers. Whatever. Unto the seventh generation, if I remember correctly. For I am a bloody massive black dragon and unutterably evil and quite prepared to carry a grudge indefinitely. Real old-school vengeance stuff. V's kids might be just plain dead, or they could be as spectacularly doomed as Hurin's family. Not sure which is worse there.

Now if the imp can make V an offer, she can't exactly refuse. Let the dragon fly away to do its terrible deed. If the Dark Side offers the aid necessary to do something about that right now, and no other offer is on the table, then there's no question about it, it's a deal.

[Escef]

I'll say this: that dragon knows how to hurt people. Seriously, kill someone and they're dead, the suffering has ended. Let them sit impotent as you kill the people they care about? Pure torture.

As for the imp, once the dragon leaves V will be stuck on this island with no high level spells. The imp negotiates with V again.

"If not for the Dimensional Anchor I could Teleport. Anywhere. Even bring someone with me. In fact, I could teleport anywhere in the world. Yup. Including any place where a certain androgynous elf's children might be. You wouldn't happen to know of someone who could get rid of a Dimensional Anchor, would you?"

[filiecs]

Well here's the comic that she says she's married. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html

[thubby]

We know for a fact he knows the oracle, who clearly knows clerics capable of ressurection. And is procuring 5000g worth of diamonds really that hard for a powerful dragon?

besides the already mentioned limits the clerics likely possess, the oracle didn't offer to help the oots with their dead guy problem. we shouldn't just assume he would help the dragon.

[kusje]

So much for "Getting back to the main adventure.":smallamused: Though morally, I've got little sympathy for momma dragon here. Sure, the party just invaded the Black dragon's house, but if you attack someone with intent to kill just for walking in your front door, and get killed in return, I can't help but feel like you had it coming. So yeah, little sympathy, especially when you're a freakin' dragon.


Castle doctrine? Besides, they weren't just walking in the front door, they were attempting to steal from the dragon!

[Njord]

OMF**G

its been a while since i Posted, but damn, that was the best strip ever !
rock !

[Hrairoo]

Awesome one once again, Giant. No one can tie in the continuity like you! Excellent twist in the end, no one saw children coming!

[Finwe]

Oh, and this seems so very... silly.
Mainly because it just seems like Qarr will go "Psst, wanna make that pact now", V will go "sure" and the dragon will get blasted away like a highly disposable plot device.

Yes, I'm sure Qarr has the power to destroy an ancient black dragon. Did you miss the part about him saying "when you're 18 inches tall, you glue your lips to the ass of the most powerful person you can find?"





In all honesty, based on how big of jerks we know dragons to be, we probably should have seen this coming.

And even if V tried to get someone to True Resurrect hir kids, momma D could just use the Oracle to find out when it'll happen and pop up the second the kids are brought back to nuke them again. Rinse, lather, repeat for the rest of V's life.

If V knew of a place/way to get a true res, why not offer mama bear one for her child, and avoid the killing entirely?




So much for "Getting back to the main adventure.":smallamused: Though morally, I've got little sympathy for momma dragon here. Sure, the party just invaded the Black dragon's house, but if you attack someone with intent to kill just for walking in your front door, and get killed in return, I can't help but feel like you had it coming. So yeah, little sympathy, especially when you're a freakin' dragon.

If a group of heavily armed people bust into your house and do not declare peaceful intentions immediately, you have every right to kill them. Especially if you have good reason to think they intend to kill you. For example, if you're a dragon, and they're adventurers. You'll notice that the order didn't exactly try to negotiate, either.





...I think I'm going to have to go with 'Bwuh?!'.

While the dragon presents to us a real tale of woe, the young dragon DID attack them on sight. Presumably. The Order can't really be blamed for defending itself.

As such, it's really sad that Vaarsuvius is now being punished for something that was, if anyone's, Nale's fault. It wasn't V's idea to go on the Starmetal quest, after all.


V could quite easily have suggested that the dragon retrieve the star-metal, and then left with the party.





Good does not have to equal stupid. Abandoning a temporary advantage over an incredibly dangerous opponent who has a proven inclination to attack on sight, in order to talk to them once more would be stupid. V had one round left. If she didn't attack, there's a fair chance the OotS would have been wiped out.

The spell lasted for an entire night.




Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't a rich and powerful dragon, who is also a high level spellcaster and is friends with an incredibly powerful oracle, be better suited to just getting a ressurection for their son?

Her horde was stolen! She's not rich anymore!

[Ridureyu]

Dear Dragon:

Do it. DOOOOO EEEEEEET

I'm not a heartless monster, but I'm looking at two possibilities.

1. V responds to the THREAT of dead children by going momma/poppa bear mode, gaining eeeeeeeeeevil power, and kicking tail.

2. V's children (and probably mate) are killed. V is ruined, broken, and destroyed, and gives up everything to gain the eeeeeeevil power. And V can blame nobody but his/her own attitude and actions.


See?

[Gareshra]

Yeah V totally had this coming. Time to gain some well needed humility, and if it's at the loss of some NPC's, then oh well. This dragon is awesome.

[iamseph]

I should point out that True Resurrection requires 25,000gc, not 5000gc. Big difference when all that has to be in diamonds and you have no horde. Even finding that many diamonds could take years and make a lot of enemies.
And you don't just find level 17+ evil clerics just knocking about the countryside wavings signs. They keep themselves quiet, because if they don't then DMs might notice them and leave clues for an adventuring party to find.

[thubby]

2. V's children (and probably mate) are killed. V is ruined, broken, and destroyed, and gives up everything to gain the eeeeeeevil power. And V can blame nobody but his/her own attitude and actions.


See?

V can blame anybody, he's the kind of guy where nothing is ever his fault. he could blame Haley for getting lost, or roy for jumping the dragon. or something i haven't thought of.

[Mando Knight]

If V knew of a place/way to get a true res,

*Cough*Durkon*Cough*
No, V doesn't know anyone who can resurrect the dragon from the ashes that are dissolved into the swamp water. Because he/she obviously hasn't been traveling with a similar-level cleric for a year. And swamp-water-dissolved ashes obviously don't count as remnants of the dragon. (they might not count for resurrection unless they can concentrate enough of the ashes into one place, though...)

[Shosuro Ishii]

I only pray that the dragon gets better treatment than Kabuto did.

I like blurring the line between good and evil that Rich does so well. I was kinda hoping the dragon would kill V.

[Ryusacerdos]

"Children" in quotation marks imply to me shes going to "kill" V's children metaphorically - by neuter/spaying.

[Dausuul]

Great comic as usual. I especially love the panel where the dragon bellows "NOTHING!" The "vibration effect" is brilliantly done there and clearly conveys the sensation of the ground shaking.


"Children" in quotation marks imply to me shes going to "kill" V's children metaphorically - by neuter/spaying.

Quotation marks? I see no quotation marks. Only bold face.

[Finwe]

*Cough*Durkon*Cough*
No, V doesn't know anyone who can resurrect the dragon from the ashes that are dissolved into the swamp water. Because he/she obviously hasn't been traveling with a similar-level cleric for a year. And swamp-water-dissolved ashes obviously don't count as remnants of the dragon. (they might not count for resurrection unless they can concentrate enough of the ashes into one place, though...)

Durkon is certainly incapable of casting True Resurrection, a 9th level spell. He's at least 3 levels away. Also, it's unlikely that the dissolved ashes would count as "remains" because they're so dilute. Also, getting 25,000 gp in diamonds is no small task, either.

[lordhaw]

Can a dragon even be resurrected? Can't say the thought ever crossed my mind in my D&D days...of course the usual "Slay everything that moves to get the XP and treasure" mentality was rather pervasive in my group until much later on.

Great strip...now I'm on the edge of my seat for the next one!

[Finwe]

Can a dragon even be resurrected? Can't say the thought ever crossed my mind in my D&D days...of course the usual "Slay everything that moves to get the XP and treasure" mentality was rather pervasive in my group until much later on.

Great strip...now I'm on the edge of my seat for the next one!

Yes, they can. Almost any creature can.

In fact, if V were thinking during the battle, he could have taken part of the silver dragon's head, and Durkon could have resurrected it once they got on the boat, giving them a powerful new ally.

[holywhippet]

Why doesn't the dragon just get V to pay for a true ressurection?

a) Cost. A true ressurection costs 25,000 gp worth of diamonds. V may not have that much loot on hand.

b) Scarcity. As Belkar commented a number of strips back, about the only cleric they might know who can cast level 9 spells is Redcloak.

[Blanth]

"We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us."

[Ridureyu]

V can blame anybody, he's the kind of guy where nothing is ever his fault. he could blame Haley for getting lost, or roy for jumping the dragon. or something i haven't thought of.

Oh, of course. V is kind of like Miko in that way - you know, Miko, who is probably in hell right now, saying, "I categorically refuse to believe that this is not the Lawful Good HEaven. Thus, the gods are just playing with me, their greatest servant, who singlehandedly killed the evil Xykon, Roy, and that horrible ghost who pretended to be Soon."

[Vizen]

Dear gods! Im not going to read through 8 pages of discussion....Yet.

But did anyone else notice that the little bit of spit that came out of the dragons mouth sizzled on the ground? Acid. Scary.

[xv bones]

And V can blame nobody but his/her own attitude and actions.



Yeah V totally had this coming. Time to gain some well needed humility, and if it's at the loss of some NPC's, then oh well.


V is female. An evil female, but female.

Yes. Vaarsuvius clearly had this coming, after she:

1) Saved the party from a Chimera

2) Saved the party from a Hydra

3) Saved the party from the young Black that Momma Black is avenging. It should be noted here that V saved Haley directly from the young Black, as she had been ingested.

5) Saved Belkar from Miko

4) Saved several hundred lives at the Battle of Azure City, expending almost all of her spells and putting her own life in dire risk against the Titanium Elementals and the Death Knight. All of those deserters ONLY lived to desert because V held shut the breach.

5) Saved the refugee ship from Zombie/Goblin attack by tutoring Elan in the appropriate means of creating a believable illusion.

6) Saved the leaders of the refugee fleet from a four-hundred-foot demon.

7) Executed a traitorous lord, thus preventing him from weaseling out of repercussions, and as such indirectly saving the party, as well as the refugee fleet.

Yes, of course.

It is all clear to me.

V is evil and must be punished.



V can blame anybody, he's the kind of guy where nothing is ever his fault. he could blame Haley for getting lost, or roy for jumping the dragon. or something i haven't thought of.

So the part where V says "I deny nothing", thus taking full responsibility for her actions escaped you?


Where is it written that a hero, a true form good guy, has to be humble and pleasant to be around and all that, in order to remain a hero and a true form good guy?

[Lord Seth]

This is yet another comic that I would've found a lot more dramatic if this hadn't been yet another cutaway from the plot I've been waiting 100+ strips to be resolved.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Varsuvius. Has. CHILDREN?

[RosesOnConcrete]

Holy CRAP. V has kids? :smalleek:

This is getting goooooooood.

[jidasfire]

Yes. Vaarsuvius clearly had this coming, after she:

1) Saved the party from a Chimera

2) Saved the party from a Hydra

3) Saved the party from the young Black that Momma Black is avenging. It should be noted here that V saved Haley directly from the young Black, as she had been ingested.

5) Saved Belkar from Miko

4) Saved several hundred lives at the Battle of Azure City, expending almost all of her spells and putting her own life in dire risk against the Titanium Elementals and the Death Knight. All of those deserters ONLY lived to desert because V held shut the breach.

5) Saved the refugee ship from Zombie/Goblin attack by tutoring Elan in the appropriate means of creating a believable illusion.

6) Saved the leaders of the refugee fleet from a four-hundred-foot demon.

7) Executed a traitorous lord, thus preventing him from weaseling out of repercussions, and as such indirectly saving the party, as well as the refugee fleet.

Yes, of course.

It is all clear to me.

V is evil and must be punished.




So the part where V says "I deny nothing", thus taking full responsibility for her actions escaped you?


Where is it written that a hero, a true form good guy, has to be humble and pleasant to be around and all that, in order to remain a hero and a true form good guy?

What this guy said.

[Anondurl]

First off V doesn't have to be female. And second I didn't know V had kids I knew he was married but perhaps the dragon is wrong in assuming that V has kids.

[stsasser]

Which party leader was wearing Daddy-dragon's hide?

[Kish]

Her horde was stolen! She's not rich anymore!
It occurs to me that Haley is lucky the dragon only wants terrible revenge on Vaarsuvius, or she could find herself being presented with two bills for money she stole and no longer has.

[Raenir Salazar]

I should point out that True Resurrection requires 25,000gc, not 5000gc. Big difference when all that has to be in diamonds and you have no horde. Even finding that many diamonds could take years and make a lot of enemies.
And you don't just find level 17+ evil clerics just knocking about the countryside wavings signs. They keep themselves quiet, because if they don't then DMs might notice them and leave clues for an adventuring party to find.

I don't even think I encounted 17,000 gp worth of diamonds throughout ALL of Neverwinter Nights 2 AND its Expansions.

[amuletts]

Yay, personal vendetta FTW! Also: more V. More, MORE!!
I think this will be the deciding point about Vs alignment. How it plays out will be crucial. I reckon he will reunite with OOTS though, having the talk with the dragon will make h** realise their strengths.

[Raenir Salazar]

Oh, of course. V is kind of like Miko in that way - you know, Miko, who is probably in hell right now, saying, "I categorically refuse to believe that this is not the Lawful Good HEaven. Thus, the gods are just playing with me, their greatest servant, who singlehandedly killed the evil Xykon, Roy, and that horrible ghost who pretended to be Soon."

I can almost with complete certainty state that Miko is NOT in the Hells, at worst she would be in the City of the False on the Fugue Plane (if Fearun), in this universe assuming base D&D I would argue she is with whatever planes the 12 Gods reside albeit in disgrace but at least with forgiveness.

[Chaman]

Showing once again that you should never trust a kobold.

I don't know how to say this...
mmmm...

WHY?

[Trobby]

Now we know the motives of the black dragon and this answers a few questions. The main question that is raised is whether V is the mother or the father of the mentioned children? I anticipate an appearance by V's mate soon.
My money says that V's mate will be even more androgynous.

[DeepShadow]

Re: Moral ambiguity, I think the error here is in thinking people are wholly good or bad. The idea of alignment plays into this thinking. I agree that V crossed a line with the disintigration, and is high in hubris, but neither of these remove the fact that V has acted heroically on many, many occasions.

Nor does V's heroism excuse any of hir flaws. V is what V is, folks, and it's all a single package. Asking whether V is good with evil actions or evil with good actions is like asking whether a zebra is black with white stripes or white with black stripes. The labels aren't meant to contain a whole person.

Re: sympathy for the dragon, the same thing applies. It's an awful thing that happened, a mother's worst nightmare, and the pain never heals. OTOH, none of that justifies killing people who weren't involved. Again with the zebra thing.

Re: the previous black dragon fight, I think the dragon was justified in defending its home against intruders, but throwing around legal concepts like B&E, felony, and murder are a stretch. Law is not morality, and D&D is lacking in both.

Re: the strip--pure genius, right to the last panel! I was ready for everything but that.

[Raenir Salazar]

I'll say this: that dragon knows how to hurt people. Seriously, kill someone and they're dead, the suffering has ended. Let them sit impotent as you kill the people they care about? Pure torture.

As for the imp, once the dragon leaves V will be stuck on this island with no high level spells. The imp negotiates with V again.

"If not for the Dimensional Anchor I could Teleport. Anywhere. Even bring someone with me. In fact, I could teleport anywhere in the world. Yup. Including any place where a certain androgynous elf's children might be. You wouldn't happen to know of someone who could get rid of a Dimensional Anchor, would you?"

You know, this makes an uncanny argument you could make, a loop hole if you will, V could argue that she had the Imp "trapped" and would release him in exchange for aid. The Imp would probably accept in the hopes as a first step towards the end result of the Pact Insidious but would give V the oppurtunity to avoid getting damned.

I love Bargains :)

[Itdano]

Just got home and all I can really say is, "Oh. Snap."

[Poit-Narf]

Which party leader was wearing Daddy-dragon's hide?

The father was killed by a different adventuring party.

[Ravens_cry]

This is good, this is real good.
In my view this is one of the most dramatic strips yet. And there has been a lot of good 'yet'.

[stsasser]

The father was killed by a different adventuring party.

Right. Which party?

[Traker]

:elan: Dun dun DUUUUUUUN!

Had to be said.

Guess we pretty much called it.

:roy: face palm.

[keybounce]

The story with the dragon starts here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html
Thank you!


... the Snarl plot ...
The what? Oh, wait, that was ... how long ago? :-)

The amazing thing? Right after the dragon, in 189: "You killed my little girl!"

(Next amazing thing: When I go to preview this, all 40 of the replies shown in the preview window are new from when I viewed the thread.)

[keybounce]

Right. Which party?

Why, the linear guild :-)

[CelebrenIthil]

Did you see the look on V's face? There are definitely children.

I noticed the expression, yes. But considering a long history of reading stuff with crazy plot twists, it might be just a clever ruse to let us believe that until the next comic comes.
V might be shocked, for example, because the idea of having children is absolutely alien to hir for xyz reasons/ utterly, incredibely wrong; or because he/she did have children but they are already dead or whatnot other crazy theory.
EDIT: Crazy theory as in, maybe the Oracle deliberately lied to mom-dragon about V having children. While the Oracle doesn't like the OOTS at all- finds Roy being too self-important, and that fellow reptilians take precedence over mammals as he is a kobold, the order of the stick DOES try to save the universe from the Snarl- which is very important. No matter the grudges he might hold against them, he might try to lend a hand to keep them alive- at least until they do something to protect/repair the fabric of the world.

Anyways, I'd remind you I threw the theory in for the sake of it, not to let any possibility closed, but it is not my strong belief it is correct at all.
Let's wait for the story to unfold I guess...

(P.S: What is the invented gender-neutral word you guys use to replace he/she ? I remember reading "hir" for his/her but I don't remember that other one.)

[IronBear]

Anyways, V is my favorite character but I do agree with the dragon. The thing that always irked me with D&D is that (at least in the hands of the common DMs and players (and mostly in D&D based videogames)) every creature seems to solely exist as stuff you must defeat. You can genocide a dozen races and it's just normal: that's what adventurers do. Anyways, most of those stuff are just mindless evil monsters and will attack you on sight anyways. Even when they are of an high intelligence they are often portrayed as "Oh greetings adventurers, I shall eat you nao. Rawr!".
But what about these creature's feelings, their attachement to their next of kin and everything? In the entire kobold clan you are wiping, isn't there families? Babies and children? Won't any will try to protect their wounded, or avenge their deaths? Won't they surrender?

I hate how as a high-level adventurer you can just barge in front of a century-old dragon and just go "Pew I keel u 4 ur moniez!" and that's all there is to it.

Here V and the gang just killed a youngling dragon but this time it had actually a parent and it actually cared (no matter it is a black dragon and all the crap about color=evil=unable to love). Of course the young dragon attacked them too but it was protecting their hoard.
And now that mommy dragon lost her child forever.
I side with her- despite the fact I would extract retribution upon the culprit and not innocent people but I understand her anger and grief-based logic of "You ripped my children from me, I'll rip your children from you."I agree 100% with your post

And am amazed at the massive coincidence life dealt me today.
Earlier this evening I was playing D&D and even though we were missing two members (some people think the Super Bowl takes precedence over the really important things) we ended up facing a random encounter with a green dragon while hunting a few werewolves. Our DM being of the good sort set up a secondary encounter with another green dragon giving us a few more clues to the lair. After a week of searching we find the lair and are confronted by three wyrmlings. Our DM (being entirely evil) went overboard with the description making sure they were cute beyond words and all crying for their mother and all indicating how cold and hungry they were.
So after killing the cutest bunch of dragons in the world I come home to find a dragon mother mourning the loss of her family. Funny how things just work out like that.

[Moebius]

Well, this did make me go back and reread the Oracle sequence. A few things I noticed:

In 566 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html): "...I have as much chance of bringing back your leader as I do of scoring with Grendel's hot mom."

Coincidence, or Most. Subtle. Foreshadowing. Ever?

One strip later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html): {after a litany of how Belkar 'caused' Roy, Miko, and Windstriker's demise} "And as for the elf-"

A bit sketchier, as it's hard to blame Belkar for V's current predicament.

[Sholos]

I'm beginning to like this dragon.

[Quorothorn]

Yes. Vaarsuvius clearly had this coming, after she:

1) Saved the party from a Chimera

2) Saved the party from a Hydra

3) Saved the party from the young Black that Momma Black is avenging. It should be noted here that V saved Haley directly from the young Black, as she had been ingested.

5) Saved Belkar from Miko

4) Saved several hundred lives at the Battle of Azure City, expending almost all of her spells and putting her own life in dire risk against the Titanium Elementals and the Death Knight. All of those deserters ONLY lived to desert because V held shut the breach.

5) Saved the refugee ship from Zombie/Goblin attack by tutoring Elan in the appropriate means of creating a believable illusion.

6) Saved the leaders of the refugee fleet from a four-hundred-foot demon.

7) Executed a traitorous lord, thus preventing him from weaseling out of repercussions, and as such indirectly saving the party, as well as the refugee fleet.

Yes, of course.

It is all clear to me.

V is evil and must be punished.




So the part where V says "I deny nothing", thus taking full responsibility for her actions escaped you?


Where is it written that a hero, a true form good guy, has to be humble and pleasant to be around and all that, in order to remain a hero and a true form good guy?

QFT.

Seriously, what's with the ridiculous levels of schadenfreude from some people these last few strips? V is NOT a bad person.

[Zeful]

Yes. Vaarsuvius clearly had this coming, after she:

3) Saved the party from the young Black that Momma Black is avenging. It should be noted here that V saved Haley directly from the young Black, as she had been ingested.And could have easily gotten the location out of the dragon, taken the starmetal and left. Instead V chose to attack an incapacitated opponent that was defending it's home from invaders (as is it's right). Which at best is a Neutral act, but since it immediatly proceeded by a death threat, to the entire party, for something that would have taken 12-24 hours to fix (clerics pick a time of day to memorise their spells, and can only do it then) anyway, isn't.


5) Saved Belkar from MikoCondemning an innocent Gnome to death, allowing Belkar to tempt Roy to the back of the dragon, placing his corpse in a difficult to recover position and splitting the party.


6) Saved the leaders of the refugee fleet from a four-hundred-foot demon.Religating her party to tools for her benefit alone.


7) Executed a traitorous lord, thus preventing him from weaseling out of repercussions, and as such indirectly saving the party, as well as the refugee fleet.Under no lawful authority, making him as much the criminal as the one she killed.


V is evil and must be punished.Arrogance breeds stupidity, stupidity must be punished to prevent it from spreading.

[drakokirby]

Yes! I totally got it right! Dragon is father of the dragon in the Starmetal cave and to add to that, we may find out what V's gender is. No way she/he can keep it away if she/he sees his/her kids.

[Solara]

Oh, and this seems so very... silly.
Mainly because it just seems like Qarr will go "Psst, wanna make that pact now", V will go "sure" and the dragon will get blasted away like a highly disposable plot device.

I see people saying stuff like this, but I haven't seen any signs Quarr even has that kind of power. As he said himself (though as an imp I suppose anything he claims is debatable) his specialty is sucking up to people more powerful than him...and before this that was a relative nobody like Kubota(sp?).

I think it's safe to assume a huge angry black dragon is waaay out of his league.

[turkishproverb]

Ok, not good. NOT GOOD. :smallbiggrin:

[theinsulabot]

And I second the notion that the dragon probably should have asked the Oracle "Where can I find a 17th level Cleric who can cast True Resurrection?" instead. Maybe she's planning to do it after the vengeance part.


:elan: OOH, i bet Redcloak is 17th level!

[Finwe]

And could have easily gotten the location out of the dragon, taken the starmetal and left. Instead V chose to attack an incapacitated opponent that was defending it's home from invaders (as is it's right). Which at best is a Neutral act, but since it immediatly proceeded by a death threat, to the entire party, for something that would have taken 12-24 hours to fix (clerics pick a time of day to memorise their spells, and can only do it then) anyway, isn't.

This, I agree with. V is entirely in the wrong here.



Condemning an innocent Gnome to death, allowing Belkar to tempt Roy to the back of the dragon, placing his corpse in a difficult to recover position and splitting the party.

Are you actually serious about this?



Religating her party to tools for her benefit alone.

I don't understand your point. V took charge of the situation, and was therefore being selfish?



Under no lawful authority, making him as much the criminal as the one she killed.

That would be Chaotic, not Evil.

[Kjata]

Funniest damn thing... My sister and parents were fighting while I loaded up the homepage. Strange coincidence.

[Liwen]

This is where the Sorceror would truly shine against the Wizard. Why?, Because Sorceror have bluff as a class skill, which I always max out when I play my sorceress. Adding my Chrismas bonus gives me even better odds of succeding.

And how would I weasel my way out with a bluff?

V : I feel sorry for your son, truly. But before you leave to accomplish your vengeful act, learn this : When we met you son, we had no intentions of killing him. Our only goal was to collect the starmetal, and when I succesfully managed to cast suggestion on him, I had him sat here has we took what we wanted. After that, we departed from your lair to return to the nearrest town to resupply, only to be attacked again by your son, seeking revenge for his defeat and the loss of the Starmetal. It is only then, in selfdefense, that I had to proceed and end his life.

Mother : Nice try. But the entire hoard was gone when I came back. And I know enough about your personnality to be certain that you would'nt have spared my son in your first encounter. You killed him out of pride.

V : I admit we did use the opportunity of his death to return and collect the rest of the hoard. But you allready exppressed your lack of concern for it. How dare you believe to know me well? Do you think I've always been this arrogant? I've stop trancing only a few months ago, being stressed by the need to prove my magic usefull. Your intervention today made me realise how much of a sociopatic murderous borderline insane waste I have become, but before our defeat at Azure City, I was quite a benevolent being, and so are my friends. You have seen the paladins, the bard and the Cleric. Do you truly believe them capable of finishing a defeated dragon, virtually harmless at the time? I did not kill your son in cold blood, it was his mistake, his own pride, that provoked his undoing.

Of course, the dragon is Evil, so she might not care at all about the circumstances of her son's death.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Yes. Vaarsuvius clearly had this coming, after she:

1) Saved the party from a Chimera

2) Saved the party from a Hydra

3) Saved the party from the young Black that Momma Black is avenging. It should be noted here that V saved Haley directly from the young Black, as she had been ingested.

5) Saved Belkar from Miko

4) Saved several hundred lives at the Battle of Azure City, expending almost all of her spells and putting her own life in dire risk against the Titanium Elementals and the Death Knight. All of those deserters ONLY lived to desert because V held shut the breach.

5) Saved the refugee ship from Zombie/Goblin attack by tutoring Elan in the appropriate means of creating a believable illusion.

6) Saved the leaders of the refugee fleet from a four-hundred-foot demon.

7) Executed a traitorous lord, thus preventing him from weaseling out of repercussions, and as such indirectly saving the party, as well as the refugee fleet.

Yes, of course.

It is all clear to me.

V is evil and must be punished.




So the part where V says "I deny nothing", thus taking full responsibility for her actions escaped you?


Where is it written that a hero, a true form good guy, has to be humble and pleasant to be around and all that, in order to remain a hero and a true form good guy?

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Mind you, I don't blame the dragon for wanting revenge. A cat might well want revenge on mice that had managed to kill one of its young.

On the other hand, I don't blame V for killing the dragon. After all, it did attack first, with no attempt to warn off the heroes -- if you want a modern analogue, since the characters didn't know that was the dragon's territory, his actions were like shooting someone who steps foot on a corner of extensive, unmarked property, not shooting an armed burglar who's breaking into your house.

Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest that this dragon was some Simon-pure version of his kind, and was therefore probably already a practiced killer and destroyer. So, V doesn't kill him -- and he goes out and eats the inhabitants of a village.

In short, killing something utterly inimical to your kind -- and most other kinds, also -- when it's attacking you, doesn't seem particularly blameworthy to me.

[Aquillion]

V can blame anybody, he's the kind of guy where nothing is ever his fault. he could blame Haley for getting lost, or roy for jumping the dragon. or something i haven't thought of.
Yes, and that is why V currently alone on an island, racked with guilt and self-doubt over combat deaths that were ultimately probably impossible to prevent. :smallconfused:


In fact, if V were thinking during the battle, he could have taken part of the silver dragon's head, and Durkon could have resurrected it once they got on the boat, giving them a powerful new ally.They had no way of knowing what kind of dragon it was, or how long ago it died.


"Children" in quotation marks imply to me shes going to "kill" V's children metaphorically - by neuter/spaying.But to do that, the dragon would have to look at or at least interact with V's genitals. Which would probably drive even the most ancient of black dragons mad in their sheer quantum intricacies.

In fact, I think that's how this scene is going to end... we'll have V saying there aren't any children, the Dragon saying "Oh no, that isn't what I meant...", claw descending towards V's robes, a cut to black with a scream on it... and then the last panel is V, standing and looking confused at an upside-down dragon with green foam flowing out of its mouth and either X's or spirals for eyes.

[AslanCross]

Yes the order invaded the dragons home, and yes they killed one young dragon. However Chromatic dragons acquire their hordes usually by killing and stealing it from other people. So if someone breaks into your house filled with treasure acquired by suffering, destruction and death. You don't really have the self defense high ground.

Of course, it's an evil dragon, so it doesn't really care about moral high ground. It wants revenge, plain and simple.

[Zeful]

Are you actually serious about this?Why wouldn't I be?


I don't understand your point. V took charge of the situation, and was therefore being selfish?Taking charge is one thing, talking down to the person supplying materials and space for your research, and treating him as an incompetent, is something else entirely.


That would be Chaotic, not Evil.It was an act done solely to prevent any perceived inconvenience to V. V even admits this very selfish act.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

So much for "Getting back to the main adventure.":smallamused: Though morally, I've got little sympathy for momma dragon here. Sure, the party just invaded the Black dragon's house, but if you attack someone with intent to kill just for walking in your front door, and get killed in return, I can't help but feel like you had it coming. So yeah, little sympathy, especially when you're a freakin' dragon.

I would love to see any jury that would convict the dragon. Its home was invaded by heavenly armed and armored individuals with intent to steal. In most of the U.S. at least you are permitted to defend your home with lethal force.

[theinsulabot]

i dont like how people are just assuming the dragon's horde was ill gotten. a repeated theme in OOTS is NOT to judge somebody by there race, so far, the only peice of treasure we can actually link them to is the starmetal itself, which according to the source, fell into the forest. i am inclined to believe sabine on this, but she is smart enough not to tell a lie about a local legend that if mentioned to any other towns person, would be easily disproven. i mention local legend because as it turns out the story was true, unless sabine just strained the rules of coincidence farther then i am willing to believe, that means she or onle probably learned about it in town and decided to use it. as for the dragons, the only really evil thing they have done was setting up a barrier of black in there hidden home. which IMO isn't any different then how a king hires guards or someone might trap a vault, its there so if you are invaded, you gain an advantage. so with those two out of the way, the closest thing you have to proof is its scales weren't all shiny. in the OOTS world, that's pretty farking thin.

incidentally, somebody is likely to ask where the dragon got its money if it didn't steal it, and there are several plausible answers. it was inherited from other dragons who themselves may or may not of been evil, it scried or oracled abandoned treasure, or hunted for it using other means, or hell, it may even of worked for it like anyone else. if i was a king in the DND world, i could very well see emptying out my treasury buying a dragon's aid in a war

[Hatu]

Is it just me, or is there an ongoing theme in OOTS that if you've ever killed a monster while playing D&D, you're a bad person and you should feel bad?

Yeah, I'm getting the same vibe. Not only is (was?) the main plot centered on the way goblinoids are treated, but we just had the endless Celia arc, now only to get the vengeance of the wronged parent.

I used to appreciate the idea; it's a fun twist on the conventional D&D world view. But at this point I'm downright sick of the whole line of thought. Nothing makes any sense to me anymore. We're in a world were objective good and evil can exist, and yet we're still stuck with all this moral relativity crap. Not only are we stuck with it, we are forced to watch it in loving detail. Every principle of Celia's, every anguish of a parent/sibling who lost a loved one to murderous adventurers, everything is drawn out and detailed for our... well, not pleasure I suppose, but maybe our attention.

Enough already. As frightening as it is to realize, I find I'm near the point at which I just can't care about the people in this strip anymore. The main plot hasn't advanced in ages, and I've found the sidetracks to be tedious and dull. But that's just frustrating. Watching the strip stew in its own moral dissonance, however, is nauseating. I have no interest in watching various groups of ruthless murderers fight each other for no reason. If that's all that this comic is going to offer me for the next 100 strips, maybe it's time to take a break.

-H

[Dacia Brabant]

Sigh, and yet another monster--a dragon no less, one of the iconic examples of the inhuman, unexplainable things that exist on the periphery of fear and imagination--gets anthropomorphized, into a Mama Bear of all things.

People are going on and on in here about dragons not having the same moral code as us so it's perfectly understandable to them that she'd want to go off and eat V's children as payback, but not having the same moral framework should also mean not caring about one's own offspring like we do. Draconic parents are not human parents, sorry, I don't buy it.

And to those who are rooting for the dragon--really? You want the dragon to devour children who had nothing whatsoever to do with her loss apart from being V's descendents? What kind of moral framework do you have? You think that V and the rest of the Order are murderers now that you find out that the black dragon from 400-odd strips ago has a mamma? Did you react that way when you were first reading those old strips before the events of the last two? Yeah I bet you did, just like you've never gone into a dragon's lair looking to "put an end its evil" in any game ever.

Edit: What Hatu said.

[Xorbon]

Good comic, nice twist, but shouldn't there have been a spot of humor? Even a little one?

For a "spot of humour", see panels 6 and 10.

I agree this was a good comic. A really good one.

And I really liked the shaking effect in panel 7.

[Rotipher]

Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't a rich and powerful dragon, who is also a high level spellcaster and is friends with an incredibly powerful oracle, be better suited to just getting a ressurection for their son?

Maybe she will do that, once she's avenged her child's death. But the possibility that Mama Dragon might be able to undo her son's demise, given a pile of diamonds and a high-level cleric, wouldn't realistically do diddly-squat to avert her fury. If someone attacked and grievously wounded your child, would your anger towards the attacker be reduced in the least by the knowledge that your kid's injuries might heal eventually?

[ishnar]

People are going on and on in here about dragons not having the same moral code as us so it's perfectly understandable to them that she'd want to go off and eat V's children as payback, but not having the same moral framework should also mean not caring about one's own offspring like we do.

Different doesn't mean or imply that EVERYTHING is different and there is no reason to believe it should. Also, an intelligent creature with a higher intelligence than humans is pretty much anthropromorphized by definition. This is also far from the first time a dragon has wanted revenge for a lost offspring.




And to those who are rooting for the dragon--really? You want the dragon to devour children who had nothing whatsoever to do with her loss apart from being V's descendents? What kind of moral framework do you have?

I guess you've never heard of the eye-for-an-eye moral code. It's been around a while so it shouldn't be hard to research. You take my eye, I take yours. You kill my baby I kill yours. Except, back in the day this code was followed, they acknowledged that killing a man also cut off his entire line. I.e. if you kill someone, they will never make babies again. So if you murder someone, they kill you, "to the third generation."

good times.

[xv bones]

And could have easily gotten the location out of the dragon, taken the starmetal and left. Instead V chose to attack an incapacitated opponent that was defending it's home from invaders (as is it's right). Which at best is a Neutral act, but since it immediatly proceeded by a death threat, to the entire party, for something that would have taken 12-24 hours to fix (clerics pick a time of day to memorise their spells, and can only do it then) anyway, isn't.

First of all, you are attempting to impose real-world morals on a story based on a game that revolves entirely around killing things and taking their stuff.

Second of all, as for the "death threat", you are mistaking a comedic moment for a moment of actual character development. If V had at any time wished death upon ANY PC in the party, that person would already be dead.

Vaarsuvius has not even killed Belkar.

Vaarsuvius has not. Killed. Belkar.

As a matter of fact, as abhorrent as Vaarsuvius finds Belkar, Vaarsuvius saved Belkar.


Condemning an innocent Gnome to death, allowing Belkar to tempt Roy to the back of the dragon, placing his corpse in a difficult to recover position and splitting the party.

By your own logic, V is also indirectly responsible for Belkar's change of heart and subsequent last-minute save of both Haley and Celia - a creature so unbelievably lawful good, she appears to be made out of puppies.

And if V is indirectly responsible for Belkar's save on Celia, V is by proxy indirectly responsible for every life Celia saves..

This is why it's a bad idea to deal in indirect causes, they always come back to bite you.


Religating her party to tools for her benefit alone.


This is a bad arguement. V cut through all the needless actions and forced the party to complete actions that enabled her to defeat the demon in one spell.

"For her benefit alone" is a weird thing to call "stopping a giant demon from killing all her party members, seeing as how none of their weapons were doing a damned thing against it."

You are mistaking "blunt" for "selfish."


Under no lawful authority, making him as much the criminal as the one she killed.

Vigilante justice. By what authority was Elan arresting him?

By what authority does the party operate under?

They're the main characters. That's their authority.

And yes, this was a wrong action, as evidenced by Elan's reaction. V is ripping out her own brains with guilt and is losing her ability to relate to normal people.

This is not evil.


Arrogance breeds stupidity, stupidity must be punished to prevent it from spreading.

What an extremely arrogant thing to say.

[Crod]

I love the part of the dragon's spittle burning into the ground.

A bit overconfident of the dragon to threaten the children before she's in a position to kill them. But I guess it would have kind of ruined the story if she just dropped down. "So.. Now I've killed your children, we're even", and left.

I'm feeling more for the dragon than for V though. Threatening to kill someone's children we've never even seen, and know nothing about, makes it less dramatic.

I like that we'll probably see more of V's background and family now.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Going back to the encounter with the younger dragon. People have talked about how it was some how helpless and they could have fled without killing it.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html

Guess that isn't true.

theinsulabot
Do you remember the big huge horde of gold they also found? That was certainly linked to them.

The older dragon in question has expressed her desire to murder V's children as an act of revenge. The dragon is clearly evil like all black dragons. So there is no reason to assume she DIDN'T acquire her horde any differently then other chromatic dragons.

The most repeated theme in OOTS is that all the cheesy cliches still apply.
Redguard has lots of justifications for his actions but that orange goblin is still evil.

You have no evidence to prove that those black dragons are not evil, thus by the cliche rules they must in fact be evil by default. Thats how the cliche monster works. And as I said before OOTS is really big on drawing out the cliches. So until that dragon proves otherwise its evil, its off spring are evil. Its a black dragon and aside from that its threatening to murder V's children as an act of revenge.

[Starwaster]

Children! No Way! We predicted the mother thing, heck we even got the oracle thig right! But V having children was something I don't think anyone saw coming! I commend you giant for once again completely baffling us! Great comic!


What really? I always took it for granted ever since he revealed having a mate. They apparently according to V's revelation had a good relationship and yet V was out travelling the world for long periods of time.... I figured she must have offspring to carry the bloodline.

[xv bones]

Taking charge is one thing, talking down to the person supplying materials and space for your research, and treating him as an incompetent, is something else entirely.

No, actually. It is not.

This is such a silly rallying point.

There was a four hundred foot tall demon in the middle of an island, it had just wiped out all the minor soldier NPCS and the PC/NPC party was doing a terrible job of killing it on their own.

Hinjo was the only one doing any real damage to it, and barely enough for the demon to notice he was there. It is very difficult to wage a war of attrition against a monster that can severely wound or kill multiple targets per action.

What possible difference would there have been if V asked nicely?

Feelings would have been salvaged? Nobody would have been offended?

Sorry, see, here i was thinking that "group survival" outweighed "group feelings."


It was an act done solely to prevent any perceived inconvenience to V. V even admits this very selfish act.
Which is chaotic.

Not evil.

[waffletaco]

Think V could convince the dragon that s/he could convince her fellow party members to True Resurrect the young adult dragon? 1 TR is cheaper than x if x > 1; that is, if V does indeed have more than one child.

[xv bones]

Think V could convince the dragon that s/he could convince her fellow party members to True Resurrect the young adult dragon? 1 TR is cheaper than x if x > 1; that is, if V does indeed have more than one child.

The dragon is lawful evil and extremely angry.

I don't think she would be willing to compromise.

[Tortoise262]

Children? Imagine the epileptic trees people will come up with.

Also, the dragon shouting "nothing!" actually shook me.

Yeah, that blurry picture was really trippy.

[Kish]

And to those who are rooting for the dragon--really? You want the dragon to devour children who had nothing whatsoever to do with her loss apart from being V's descendents? What kind of moral framework do you have? You think that V and the rest of the Order are murderers now that you find out that the black dragon from 400-odd strips ago has a mamma? Did you react that way when you were first reading those old strips before the events of the last two? Yeah I bet you did, just like you've never gone into a dragon's lair looking to "put an end its evil" in any game ever.
Really, now. You can't make your point without telling other people what they think?

For my part, I thought 400-odd strips ago that it showed a (not very surprising) moral failing in Vaarsuvius that s/he jumped straight to Suggestion, rather than trying to negotiate with the dragon once s/he realized it spoke Lizard. And have I gone into a dragon's lair looking to put an end to its evil in games? Why, certainly. Firkraag, in Baldur's Gate II, who was given to terrorizing his neighbors and seizing their land. Klauth, in Neverwinter Nights, who used magic to cannibalize other dragons--mostly other chromatic dragons, incidentally--to extend his lifespan. But a dragon whose actual evil, to my knowledge, consisted of, "Its scales weren't all shiny"? Saladrex, also in Baldur's Gate II, a red dragon just like Firkraag, but a friendly and helpful (albeit massively conceited) one? No. And any DM who's played with me for any length of time would know better than to expect anything other than a cold stare from trying to get me to.