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View Full Version : [AD&D 2e] Recreating Psionics/ToM/Monster Classes in 2e?



Khatoblepas
2009-02-01, 09:29 PM
Having recently got the core books to AD&D 2e, I was fascinated by it from the get go. Everything seemed to be far more esoteric and somewhat inconsistent, but then again, it seemed to be everything I was looking for. I love the multiclassing rules, and even the dual classing rules (though I hear not many other people do x3).

Reading through them, I love most things about it, though there are a couple of things I feel are missing from 2e that is everpresent in 3e's splatbooks. That is, alternate mechanics. Everything in 2e seems to work off class-specific mechanics anyway, such as percentile strength, thief skills, and magic. I would post this in the Dragonsfoot forums or somewhere similar, but they're quite intimidating, what with their hatred of 3e. x3

Please, tell me if this work has already been done somewhere before, I don't want to embark on an epic conversion if it's already been done in a Dragon Magazine somewhere x3. I'm not looking for someone to do the work for me, but for someone who is more well versed on AD&D 2e to tell me if the classes would work in 2e or not. It seems that the system doesn't take kindly to at-wills, and class features are few and far between in the system.


PSIONICS
Psionics, I feel, would be the easiest system to transpose, as it has it's roots in traditional Magic. I could probably convert all the powers easily, since most of them have spell analogues anyway. I do not like the 2e Psionics system. At all. I've never been able to understand it, and it's too complicated (in my opinion) Since Wizards have had the same spells-per-day as 2e in 3e (roughly), giving Psions the same amount of PP would make sense.

Psion
THAC0: as Wizard
Saves: as Wizard
XP: as Wizard
Notes: Like specialist wizards, psionic disciplines can only be taken by certain races. This retains the AD&D feel - not all races have the natural knack for certain disciplines.

Ardent
THAC0: as cleric
Saves: as cleric
XP: as cleric
Notes: Ardents get up to 7th level powers, like the clerics in 2e. They gain extra PP according to their Wisdom.

Wilder
As a Psion kit. Replace Int with Cha.

Erudite
As a Psion kit.

Psychic Warrior
THAC0: as cleric
Saves: as fighter
XP: as Ranger/Paladin. Maybe more, I'm not sure, as it gets 5th level spell equiv.

Soulknife
Based on the Kensai kit? Less atk/dmg bonus in exchange for never losing your blade and using it as a throwing weapon?

PSIONIC FOCUS AND METAPSIONICS
Tome of Magic (2e) has rules for metamagic in the form of spells. Likewise, they will be powers in this converted system. Psionic Focus will require a successful Con/Wis check, and Metapsionic powers require the expendature of the focus as part of another spell.

Other uses of one's Psionic Focus are either powers (Up the Walls, Psionic Shot et al) or given for free as part of the psionics package.

Tome of Magic (3e)

Tome of Magic is a little bit more complicated, as it has three different classes, and one of them can use "at will" abilities. I haven't seen many classes that CAN use at wills, with the exception of maybe the Paladin's Detect Evil.

BINDER
THAC0: as Cleric
Saves: as Cleric
XP: as Cleric
Notes: Binder is probably the hardest class to convert, since not only does it have at will abilities, the flavor of the vestiges is odd because some of them are still alive in 2e (they were removed in 3e). I'd be tempted to remove any healing abilities that heal above 1/2HP, and nerf anything that makes it better than a classes' speciality. Perhaps a roguish vestige might give them a couple thief abilities of their level - 2? 1/5 round abilities might have to be relegated to 1/turn.

Not sure what to do about the Shadowcaster or Truenamer - I don't really like their mechanics, and Truenamer is tied to the 3e skill system.

Monster Classes

I hate the monster class system presented in the 2e DMG. I never really liked the xenophobic nature of D&D, anyway. Monsters can be adventurers too, you know.

I've been thinking about it, and the best thing I can come up with is giving the monster a class of their own based on their HD (giving them their own XP value depending on how powerful they are in relation to their HD) and then forcing them to dual class - though multiclass combinations can be taken, this ensures that the monster will have to learn the classes' abilities without resorting to their natural abilities, but also they can be adventuring alongside heroes without any trouble.


So, how would you convert all this stuff? What tips can you give me for balancing everything? Is this a good idea, or am I wasting my time? Any input is good, I've been thinking of running a AD&D campaign sometime.

Thankyou for reading.

Thane of Fife
2009-02-01, 10:09 PM
First, it's always nice to see somebody else coming to 2nd edition, so let me welcome you - I hope you enjoy it.


PSIONICS
Psionics, I feel, would be the easiest system to transpose, as it has it's roots in traditional Magic. I could probably convert all the powers easily, since most of them have spell analogues anyway. I do not like the 2e Psionics system. At all. I've never been able to understand it, and it's too complicated (in my opinion) Since Wizards have had the same spells-per-day as 2e in 3e (roughly), giving Psions the same amount of PP would make sense.

You might consider checking the Psionics system as it was rewritten in Skills and Powers, where an attempt was made to bring it in line with the rest of the system.

Also, note that a 2e and 3e wizard do not really have the same number of spells per day - the 3e wizard gets a large number of bonus spells for his intelligence.


Monster Classes

I hate the monster class system presented in the 2e DMG. I never really liked the xenophobic nature of D&D, anyway. Monsters can be adventurers too, you know.

I've been thinking about it, and the best thing I can come up with is giving the monster a class of their own based on their HD (giving them their own XP value depending on how powerful they are in relation to their HD) and then forcing them to dual class - though multiclass combinations can be taken, this ensures that the monster will have to learn the classes' abilities without resorting to their natural abilities, but also they can be adventuring alongside heroes without any trouble.


I have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to the 'Monster Class System' in the DMG.

You may wish to examine the Complete Book of Humanoids, which has rules for most races you might be interested in which aren't in the PHB.


In large part, it sounds like you should check out the Player's Option books (Spells and Magic, Skills and Powers, and Combat and Tactics). They - especially the first one - include a number of alternate mechanics (though not quite as completely different as it sounds like you might want).

Finally, though it may not be what you want to hear, I'm going to recommend trying to use as few extra books as possible. A lot of the beauty in 2nd edition is in its simplicity, and you have to give a lot of that up to use all the extra books.

But I understand the attraction of having lots of rules and variants, so feel free to disregard that bit of advice.

(And sorry for not giving more comments, but my 3.x book collection is essentially non-existent, and I have almost no idea what any of those classes are).

Fostire
2009-02-01, 11:32 PM
You might consider checking the Psionics system as it was rewritten in Skills and Powers, where an attempt was made to bring it in line with the rest of the system.
Seconded. MTHAC0 and MAC is the way to go with 2e psionics.

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-02-01, 11:32 PM
I'll say right up front that I'm a long time player of 2nd edition. (and first, and The basic and expert D&D boxed sets before that...)

Frankly what your trying to do has mostly been done in the huge variety of handbooks and alternate material for 2nd ed.

I will first and foremost suggest the Complete Psionics Handbook for most of what your suggesting, with the wealth of powers and alternatives you can do most "psychic" character concepts with either Psionicist or just a few wild talents.

That said don't expect it to be anything like the 3rd ed psionics which I think is basically Wizard spells using power points with sonic and mental damage instead of lightning and fire. Then again I've hated all the mods on psionics starting with skills and powers. (this includes everything in 3rd ed for reference) Just to clearly state my bias.

If your going for characters with a strictly 3rd ed game balance and feel for psychics I wish you luck... but it will involve a healthy amount of homebrew on your part.

Khatoblepas
2009-02-04, 05:42 AM
Ah,I was afraid of this. People who are familiar and nonhostile towards 2e are unfamiliar and hostile towards 3e. Rather a shame, because 3e really had a lot to offer the game, even if some of the mechanics were really off. (One wonders if there was a Runescarred Berserker kit for the Fighter in 2e...)

Now, just to reiterate and make myself clear: I have read Skills and Powers/Spells and Magic/etc and I do not like the mechanics they presented. I especially do not like the Psionic Combat system they presented. The reason why I wanted to convert 3.5's version is because I liked that version and I wanted to bring it to AD&D, which I prefer in terms of D&D.


Also, note that a 2e and 3e wizard do not really have the same number of spells per day - the 3e wizard gets a large number of bonus spells for his intelligence.


I have already taken this into account - the Psion does not get bonus PP based on his Intelligence, but the Ardent does (based on Wisdom).


I have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to the 'Monster Class System' in the DMG.

Playing Variant Races, after the optional rules for Demihumans. Very xenophobic. Says that they can never reach above level 12 ever, and even then, it requires a huge, huge score in your prime requisite. I'd like a system that would roughly approximate the monster in question, even the more exotic ones.


You may wish to examine the Complete Book of Humanoids, which has rules for most races you might be interested in which aren't in the PHB.


It was an interesting read, but didn't address something that Savage Species later did - how to play nonhumanoids. There's a precident for playing nonhumanoids in AD&D- I particularily liked Fall From Grace in Planescape: Torment, too. There's untapped potential playing Fiend adventurers among normal adventurers - perhaps a bound fiend on a chain, even more pathetic than they usually are. And you could even give them all the powers they'd usually have. It's not THAT overpowering, if you mitigate it by making them dual class into their chosen profession after buying their abilities first.

Thane of Fife
2009-02-04, 08:09 AM
Ah,I was afraid of this. People who are familiar and nonhostile towards 2e are unfamiliar and hostile towards 3e. Rather a shame, because 3e really had a lot to offer the game, even if some of the mechanics were really off. (One wonders if there was a Runescarred Berserker kit for the Fighter in 2e...)

I'm not hostile, just unfamiliar.

Looking over the Psionic rules in the SRD, I don't really see anything that distinguishes it from magic, other than that it uses PP instead of memorization, and that it has a new list of spells, but I could be missing something.

I know I've seen conversions of the Sorcerer for 2nd edition, but I can't find one at the moment - maybe one would be helpful to you.


Playing Variant Races, after the optional rules for Demihumans. Very xenophobic. Says that they can never reach above level 12 ever, and even then, it requires a huge, huge score in your prime requisite. I'd like a system that would roughly approximate the monster in question, even the more exotic ones.

Most demihumans have similarly restrictive level limits.

I'm not entirely certain what you mean by 'approximate the monster in question.'


It was an interesting read, but didn't address something that Savage Species later did - how to play nonhumanoids. There's a precident for playing nonhumanoids in AD&D- I particularily liked Fall From Grace in Planescape: Torment, too. There's untapped potential playing Fiend adventurers among normal adventurers - perhaps a bound fiend on a chain, even more pathetic than they usually are. And you could even give them all the powers they'd usually have. It's not THAT overpowering, if you mitigate it by making them dual class into their chosen profession after buying their abilities first.

I can't really imagine a non-humanoid as being much fun to play in the long term - most of them don't have hands to fight or cast spells with, and most magic items won't fit them.

If you want to make a monster class, though, that should be fairly simple - just use the class creator bit in the DMG, and add any extra powers over levels. It probably shouldn't give many proficiencies, though.

I would probably recommend making them multi-class, because only humans normally dual-class, and because it would seem less like playing half a monster in the earlier levels.

Khatoblepas
2009-02-04, 10:41 AM
I'm not hostile, just unfamiliar.

Looking over the Psionic rules in the SRD, I don't really see anything that distinguishes it from magic, other than that it uses PP instead of memorization, and that it has a new list of spells, but I could be missing something.

I know I've seen conversions of the Sorcerer for 2nd edition, but I can't find one at the moment - maybe one would be helpful to you.

The Augmentation system, far from the strict vancian system, is something that I like about Psionics, and also the variety of the powers compared to spells.

Take, for example, Chromatic Orb. In a magic system, as your CL increases, the effect is different. However, in the Psionics system, you spend more points to make your spells more effective (in this case, to get the higher level effects, or to give the enemy penalties on their saving throws, or to increase the dice of damage). The amount of PP it costs to manifest a power, also, seems much more consistant than the 2e Skills and Powers/Spells and Magic stuff [(2*Level) -1] But it is the powers, also, that fascinate me, because there are some unique ones that aren't seen in the Vancian Magic system. One power for all the elements, Mind Switch, Fusion, Fission, etc. This is the stuff I want to include in my D&D games. Because it's dang awesome. x3

Psions don't have vocal or somatic components to their powers, and can manifest in any armor - but this is mostly mitigated by the powers having to be augmented rather than being automatically augmented.

Then, there are psicrystals, and manifesting powers from other people's heads, and the psionic focus thing. It's really more than just a spell-point system for Wizards, it's a completely different way of thinking (using the same tool many different ways, rather than having a toolkit of any spell that might be useful)



Most demihumans have similarly restrictive level limits.

I'm not entirely certain what you mean by 'approximate the monster in question.'

Well, the monsters need an 18 to be able to get up to level 12, and that's just for not being human or an elf or something equally vanilla. I find this rather odd, coming from a background of CoC, where humans are often the bottom rung. What makes humans so special?

And as for approximating monsters, I mean for effects relying on level. Say you're playing an Abashai (pretty weak devil/demon [forget which, AFB], couple of innate spells and a poison sting tail, nothing really very fancy). A Wight comes along, and level drains you. Would it kill you easier than it would kill an Abashai NPC who uses his monster stats? After all, at level 1 you have one HD, and he has 4.


I can't really imagine a non-humanoid as being much fun to play in the long term - most of them don't have hands to fight or cast spells with, and most magic items won't fit them.

If you want to make a monster class, though, that should be fairly simple - just use the class creator bit in the DMG, and add any extra powers over levels. It probably shouldn't give many proficiencies, though.

I would probably recommend making them multi-class, because only humans normally dual-class, and because it would seem less like playing half a monster in the earlier levels.

Yeah, Nonhumanoids aren't fun to play unless they're functional, and mostly they aren't. :P

The reason I suggested dual classing was that the monster would "grow up" from a 1HD monster to however many hit die it had as an adult, and then have to learn new skills without resorting to their old ways. Example, an Abashai thief using his Hide in Shadows and sneaking skills to get past a guard will get XP for his thief class, but using his innate Change Self ability to appear as another guard to walk by him won't net him any experience for that part of the adventure, until he's good enough as a thief to surpass his innate abilities. Multiclassing wouldn't work for this, because as soon as you get to Abashai 4/Thief 4, the Abashai tree would be a useless XP sink, and that just isn't fair - and this is talking as a DM. Now, it isn't Dual classing I'm suggesting, as the monsters only do it once, and they can dual class into a multiclass combination if their race allows them to. But thinking sequentially, it makes sense that a monster would learn how they work before going onto another class. They wouldn't be able to dual class again, but they would be paying an XP debt of around 1500XP per HD depending on abilities, and then they would be held back from using their abilities for as many levels as it takes for their new class to catch up. They'd be marginally weaker than regular humans and demihumans, but I feel this system would be more versatile than disallowing more exotic races altogether and forcing them to start at level 1. Heck, if you gave an even heftier XP per level table than a wizard to Dragons, you might be able to play one of them! Dragons are awesome. They wouldn't be able to use weapons, but then again, they have a multiple attack pattern.

After all, should we not explore all facets of fantasy, not just the ones that involve humans and elves and dwarves?

hamlet
2009-02-04, 10:46 AM
Welcome to the shameful joy of 2nd edition! We have a support group that meets on Tuesdays.:smallbiggrin:

Judging by what you've said, it almost sounds as if you're judging psionics by the skills and powers books, which would be a mistake in my estimation. Those were foolish and ridiculous mechanics and they really messed with something that didn't need to be messed with.

If you have not already done so, get your hands on the Complete Psionics Handbook. At first blush, it looks confusing and intimidating, but if you drill into your brain that psionics work almost exactly like non-weapon proficiencies with a few frills added on, it suddenly becomes much easier. The only two parts of that book that I've ever found the need to change, modify, or gouge out were the mental combat rules (essentially, I pulled out the "three tangents" thing which was just needlessly complex and turned it into a system where one single successfull attack establishes contact and a successfull defense repels a contact; it made telepaths slightly more powerful, but it worked out better in the end) and the PSP recovery system. Instead of measuring recovery time in hours spent meditating and so on, I merely made it PSP's per day and turned the meditate proficiency give the psionisist the power to recover while not actually sleeping (say, on watch or something, but at half recovery).

With that book (and I highly HIGHLY recommend picking up the Dark Sun book Will and the Way) you can pretty much create any psionic character you want.


Binders and the like would be tougher to do in AD&D as they rely on completely alternate mechanics. I think you'd be much better off building from the ground up. Not even sure how you'd start that all, but you might want to take a look at the Shaman book (a late 2e product of questionable value) for some ideas. That, and the Witch kits from the various other books might give you a baseline.

I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with.


Monster PC's: well, follow me for a minute . . .

AD&D2d is, at its core, a humano-centric game. Humans are, simply put, better than all other races in the game. They learn faster and better than others. They are able to plumb depths of knowledge that other races cannot because humans are more innovative and willing to experiment than the hide-bound other races. They are infinately adaptable. They are multitudinous. And so on. If you accept that, you will have a better time in AD&D as you will learn that the game was simply not designed around the cosmopolitan ideas that 3.x was and 4.0 is.

That said, if you want to start introducing the more exotic monsters as playable races, I suggest the following: first, pick up the Complete Book of Humanoids and learn the lessons it offers. One of the main things you have to be aware of is making sure that such exotic races do not overshadow the human population, do not take away their specialness.

Second, grab a copy of Council of Wyrms. Dragon and half dragon PC's. Awesome.

Third, head over to Emperor's Choice and pick up a copy of the reprinted grimoire trilogy. They have a couple of nice, non-standard races thrown in there that are only a hop skip and jump away from being AD&D compatible. I recommend the Phraint especially. Lots of fun to be had there. Also, while you're there, learn about Rune Weavers and Rune Singers as that fits in with your Tome of Magic stuff. Not to mention technos, saints, and an alternate magic system . . .

In short, there's no short cut to exotic PC races. You pretty much have to wing it and hammer it out and see how it works. Then, you fiddle with it to make it fit better.

You have the tools, now you just have to learn to use them.

Other books that might be useful to you judging by your original post:
*Dark Sun original boxed sets: just loaded with some more "out of the ordinary" stuff.
*Planescape: they have a bunch of non-typical races stuffed in there, plus some wonky new ideas to fiddle with.
*Council of Wyrms: As noted above, this amounts to "how to build an ultimate engine of destruction in ten easy steps.
*Dragon Kings: A Dark Sun book, talks a lot about, essentially, ascending evolution. PC's getting the chance to become hugely powerful and imortal beings through extreme trial and tribulation. Some nifty ideas for becoming non-humanoid

Matthew
2009-02-04, 06:22 PM
Don't be intimidated by the Dragonsfoot forums. The second edition forums or workshop should be fine for something like this. I am having to reload every damn page here today, so you will have to excuse the briefness of this post [i.e. my lack of comments on the content].

LibraryOgre
2009-02-04, 08:12 PM
PSIONICS
Psionics, I feel, would be the easiest system to transpose, as it has it's roots in traditional Magic. I could probably convert all the powers easily, since most of them have spell analogues anyway. I do not like the 2e Psionics system. At all. I've never been able to understand it, and it's too complicated (in my opinion) Since Wizards have had the same spells-per-day as 2e in 3e (roughly), giving Psions the same amount of PP would make sense.

The Complete Psionics system suffered from many problems, not the least of which was the lockstep between attributes and Power Scores (which worked exactly as proficiencies did... roll under, higher is better) and the double-jeopardy of abilities (you could bollox up the roll, or it could be saved against). Despite what others say, the MAC and MTHAC0 systems were not my favorite; they solved one of the problems of the Power Score system (dependence on high ability scores), but not the other (double jeopardy), and I felt they stripped the psionics system of a lot of their character.

I would probably go forward and back, incorporating elements of the 1st edition and 3.5 psionics systems. Rather than a strict level-based list (as in 3.x), a pool of possible powers, divided into two sections (Sciences and Devotions). I would probably, however, make use of 3.5's power point scales and increases, or something similar.


Tome of Magic (3e)

Tome of Magic is a little bit more complicated, as it has three different classes, and one of them can use "at will" abilities. I haven't seen many classes that CAN use at wills, with the exception of maybe the Paladin's Detect Evil.

Take a look at the Shamans supplement by Kevin Hassal. What I understand of the Binder (never read ToM), the Shaman is very similar in that they have spirit allies that they use to cast spells.


Monster Classes

I hate the monster class system presented in the 2e DMG. I never really liked the xenophobic nature of D&D, anyway. Monsters can be adventurers too, you know.

I've been thinking about it, and the best thing I can come up with is giving the monster a class of their own based on their HD (giving them their own XP value depending on how powerful they are in relation to their HD) and then forcing them to dual class - though multiclass combinations can be taken, this ensures that the monster will have to learn the classes' abilities without resorting to their natural abilities, but also they can be adventuring alongside heroes without any trouble.

Grab a hold of Dark Sun; they handled Thri-kreen and, IIRC, Pterrans and Aarockra in a way reminiscent of monster classes, in that you gained racial abilities as you improved in HD... but you remained in a standard class.

However, I do think that the system laid out in the 2e DMG is quite good for keeping things reasonable; 2e has a far different power level and arrangement of abilities, and throwing in very powerful races can really screw up a game, unless the DM knows it very well.