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Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 03:12 AM
I've read through Wildshape and it seems that it is decent. However, you are unable to use gear so your AC is almost certainly going to be low. Most of the threads I have read cite Wildshape with the chief reason why Druids are too powerful. I've read through the Druid Handbook, and I still can't see why Wildshape is so powerful; maybe it's just because I've seen Druids played that suck really, really, bad. Like so bad, the S&B Fighter does far better than him.

To the people who do not suck, how is Wildshape, and thus Druids, so damn powerful? :smallconfused:

Best of luck and sorry for the moronic question.
-Eddie

CyberRebirth
2009-02-02, 03:19 AM
There are several feats and a couple items that increase the effectiveness of a wildshaped druid. There is an item, I am unsure of the name, it allows your armor to affect your wildshaped form.

Reinboom
2009-02-02, 03:52 AM
I've read through Wildshape and it seems that it is decent. However, you are unable to use gear so your AC is almost certainly going to be low. Most of the threads I have read cite Wildshape with the chief reason why Druids are too powerful. I've read through the Druid Handbook, and I still can't see why Wildshape is so powerful; maybe it's just because I've seen Druids played that suck really, really, bad. Like so bad, the S&B Fighter does far better than him.

To the people who do not suck, how is Wildshape, and thus Druids, so damn powerful? :smallconfused:

Best of luck and sorry for the moronic question.
-Eddie

Wildshape isn't that bad, really. It's a nice bonus with a lot of flexibility. You have utility with flying, swimming, and similar animals, as well as power with some of the more effective larger animals (bear, for example).
The first 'issues' with it crop up at about level 7 when most of a 24 hour day, and certainly an entire adventuring day (though this can be done at level 6) can be done entirely in animal form. However, not that bad once more. Wildshape would make for a rather powerful decent class, when played right - and with splat books, it can outshine the fighter with enough research. Yes, there is even armor that wildshapes with you and stays on if you look hard enough. Alternatively, you can become something remotely humanoid shaped (ape and bear would work for me) and just put on your armor/have someone help put on your armor after you wildshaped.

However, that's just keeping in mind wildshape. The real issue rests in the fact that wildshape can nearly or equal a full class WHILE being on a class that is not /just/ wildshape. Mind, the druid still has a very formidable animal companion (which, can either be a boon or overpowering depending on the allowance of the GM) to back them up while in wildshape. This duo for one class combination makes the druid a very powerful tank and melee powerhouse. Easily a decently high tier class.

Or would be, if they also did not have spellcasting, and thanks to natural spell (notably, a very obvious and core druid feat), mid combat spellcasting without much effort. They can summon even more things to beat monsters up, control battlefields with vines, support healing, and more.

mostlyharmful
2009-02-02, 03:53 AM
It's not that over powered on its own. Add in Natural Spell and it makes it a lot more effective, you're now able to dump two stats, have a huge range of possible extra beenies like pounce or fligth and don't loss much since you're a great buffer (with Wildling clasps you don't lose much of anything).

It's the additive nature of the druids features that make it over the top, Wildshape on it's own would be fine, combine it with an Animal companion, full casting, spont summons of the best summon line, some miscillaneous other features, a good skill list, lots of skill points, a decent hit dice, a decent BAB and all of them working together at the same time.... It's not one thing in particular it's the syncronism of several good to very strong class features.

Edit: Arrgh, Knife in kidney..... damn ninjas!

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 04:22 AM
Reading the DHB, I see that a Fleshraker is the form to be in until about level 16 when you can get Dire Tiger if you want to be a melee monster. Looking at it, I just don't see how it's all that powerful; several attacks at 1d4 doesn't sounds like it's going to beat Mr. THW-PA Fighter. I know I'm missing something. :smallfrown:

Behold_the_Void
2009-02-02, 04:28 AM
You also take on the physical statistics of the wild-shaped form, which tends to mean a really high strength and constitution score in wild shape.

mostlyharmful
2009-02-02, 04:29 AM
Reading the DHB, I see that a Fleshraker is the form to be in until about level 16 when you can get Dire Tiger if you want to be a melee monster. Looking at it, I just don't see how it's all that powerful; several attacks at 1d4 doesn't sounds like it's going to beat Mr. THW-PA Fighter. I know I'm missing something. :smallfrown:

Venomfire the spell makes its poison serious stuff, magic fang on all your attacks and all your ACs attacks brings you up to snuff, a full attack charge with free trips on most of them, high movement rates and the ability to use magic items that your friends put on you after you wildshape.... You're not giving up anything or even spending any feats or gold at this point, and you're pretty much level with the THW-PA guy (when he actually gets into combat that is...). Add in Airwalk and your druid extra stuff and you're a sneaky manuvourable SOB, charge a guy out of the undergrowth you've covered the battlefield in doing ludicrous damage and tripping and crippling and accompanied by anouther fleshraker who's also buffed up the wazooo.:smallfrown:

The dice from your attacks isn't where the damage is, it's from your buffs and that's something that you can push into the stratosphere. Plus, in Fleshraker its easy enough to ensure that you're the only one attacking.

Fishy
2009-02-02, 04:32 AM
As I understand it, Fleshraker isn't so much about damage.

It's about charging, and getting a full attack at the end of the charge, and getting a half-dozen hits from your full attack, and using every one of them to Improved Trip, and get another half-dozen hits in.

But the basic problem with Wildshape, and with Druids and with Wizards is the following:

Imagine a game, let's call it D, where there are exactly three spells and three monsters. A Wildshaping Druid with Natural Spell can cast each of the three spells while in each of his three forms, which works out to 9 'things'. D's writers, editors and playtesters have to go through 9 things, see if they aren't outrageously broken, and then they're done.

Now, imagine a game called D&, which has fifty spells and fifty monsters. Our druid now has two thousand and five hundred 'things' he can choose to do. Most of them will be okay, some of them will be lame, but all it takes is one combination that's outrageously good, and the Druid is set for life. Without ever being locked into a decision, even.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 04:36 AM
You also take on the physical statistics of the wild-shaped form, which tends to mean a really high strength and constitution score in wild shape.

I thought your HP was not effected by the new Constitution score?

And Mostlyharmful, can you actually use items while in a form that isn't 'used' to wearing gear? Like the Fleshraker wears an amulet or something?

mostlyharmful
2009-02-02, 04:37 AM
I thought your HP was not effected by the new Constitution score?

Not since it got Errated, but your Dex is. Given you don't need two stats and your Int and Cha stats aren't esspecially vital to your party role you can pretty much dump all except Wis and Con

Talic
2009-02-02, 04:38 AM
Ok, there are builds out there, not even fully optimized, that can see a shifted druid hitting 40-60 AC by level 8-11.

Those same builds allow the druid to cast while shifted.

So now we have a nigh-unassailable form that can cast with impunity.
Good.
That has good attack bonuses and damage.
Better.
And high modifiers to special abilities.
Even more better.

In fact, through Master of Many Forms, druids can even pick up Extraordinary special qualities, such as Regeneration, tremorsense, and the like.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 04:40 AM
Ok, there are builds out there, not even fully optimized, that can see a shifted druid hitting 40-60 AC by level 8-11.


I am speechless... :smalleek:

Eldariel
2009-02-02, 04:46 AM
The principal issue with Wildshape is that it replaces your physical ability scores. That means that regardless of your Str and Dex, you're going to be a good frontliner and going to have those stats matching or exceeding the party Fighter; also, it means that you have two extra dumpstats meaning you only need Con and Wis. Thanks to that, the Druid can afford an 18 in Wisdom on 25pb and still have 18+ Str and Dex while fighting.

Oh, and Wildshape also grants you a natural armor. Which means you can easily buff your AC far beyond what's even possible for standard characters.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 04:57 AM
Oh, and Wildshape also grants you a natural armor. Which means you can easily buff your AC far beyond what's even possible for standard characters.

But is it really that significant? A Dire Bear gives 7 Natural, but a Fighter could just grab a Breastplate for similar protection. Or does it get silly once you add in buffs?

Eldariel
2009-02-02, 05:03 AM
But is it really that significant? A Dire Bear gives 7 Natural, but a Fighter could just grab a Breastplate for similar protection. Or does it get silly once you add in buffs?

It's a bonus type not available to the Fighter. The Druid can have a Wild armor or Mage Armor spell, or more probably Monk's Belt granting him his considerable Wis to AC, in addition to that natural armor (and uncapped Dex). Then both have +5 NA (this is specifically a bonus to the existing NA), +5 Deflection, and the Druid comes out the Natural Armor ahead.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 05:13 AM
Can a Wildshape Druid wear gear? I don't just mean like an Ape using Hide but like a Dire Bear using equipment.

Eloel
2009-02-02, 05:19 AM
Can a Wildshape Druid wear gear? I don't just mean like an Ape using Hide but like a Dire Bear using equipment.

Wilding clasp from MIC does exactly that.

mostlyharmful
2009-02-02, 05:24 AM
You can also have your team mates put your gear onto you once you've wildshaped, it means you can't sneak about as a small animal and not get noticed but magic items resize/shape themselves to the wearer (that's why you can wear dwarf made magic armour as an elf and use magic rings made for gnomes..). If the form you're changing into has a waist (Ape, Bear, etc... ) and fingers/digits (just about everything nonaquatic), and a neck (just about everything) then you can use the important stuff no problem.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 05:29 AM
So a Fleshraker could have a belt and necklace easily enough and, if you made a good argument, rings as well?

mostlyharmful
2009-02-02, 05:35 AM
So a Fleshraker could have a belt and necklace easily enough and, if you made a good argument, rings as well?

No real arguement, it's a bipedal medium sized animal with essentially grasping forelimbs designed very similarly to humanoids. If your DM doesn't let you use rings in fleshraker form they're being a bit overzealous in my opinon and if you get hold of a picture of the dinosaur you're turning into
http://www.healthstones.com/dinosaurstore/papo_dinosaur_toys/papo_velociraptor_dinosaur_toys/papo_velociraptor_dinosaur_toys.jpg
and point out what the forelimbs look like it should be even easier, the ring wouldn't need to change shape or size more than it would to resize to any normal humanoid, it's probably not even as extreme as a high natural strength half-orc and wouldn't they be pissed off if a DM said "no, i'm sorry but your fingers are too fat to use that +2 ring of protection, it's gnome made."

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 05:45 AM
I wonder if it would be difficult to mingle with actual Fleshrakers while wearing rings...

"Dude, what happened?! you go into the city for one week and you come back dressed in jewelry?..."
"... I think it's pretty?" :smallsmile:

Talic
2009-02-02, 05:56 AM
Ok, for an example.

Let's take a Dwarf Druid, total level 10, 22 point buy.

Str 8
Dex 8
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 6

Let's say this Druid has 2 levels of the Deepwarden Prestige Class, and gains Con to AC. (the ethos of deepwarden actually meshes very well with druid)

He also has Wilding Mountain Plate (dragonhide or somesuch)+1.

Shift into a large animal form, armor melds (still provides bonus)
Armor - +11
Con to AC - +8
Natural Armor - +7
Size - -1
That's AC 35, and I'm not even trying.

Large Wooden Shield +1, Animated - +3
Amulet of Natural Health +6 - +3
Ring of protection +2 - +2
Now it's AC 43.

5 ranks of tumble and fighting defensively?
AC 46.

And that's on a 22 point buy.
On a 28 point buy, I'd bump the strength up to a 14, to qualify for power attack. On a 32 point buy, I'd put strength at 12, and raise the wisdom to 18 (1st level boost in Strength to qualify for power attack)

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-02, 06:04 AM
Ahh, I see. Actually Talic, I think the AC would be higher; Wildshape gives you the con modifier, but it doesn't apply to HP.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-02, 06:26 AM
Raw power isn't so much the "problem" with Wild Shape as the versatility it provides. Walk around all day in a form that is equal in melee to the party Fighter. That Fighter may have his own shtick, whether it's dealing damage with Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, or controlling the battlefield with Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, or providing an unkillable barrier with Shield Ward and Combat Form feats and an unspeakably high AC, each of which requires such a heavy investment on the character's part that he most often cannot do more than one of them. A Druid just picks the right form and casts the right buff(s) and can do whichever of those is needed right then. And he never even has to switch out to cast those buffs thanks to Natural Spell. Tier 1 spellcasting plus an animal companion who's the party fighter's equal in melee plus an all-day combat form plus utility forms.

By utility forms I mean fly around out of melee or to hard-to-reach places just as easily as any other character, sneak around just as well as any of the classes that are supposed to be the best at it, swim (and breathe) like a fish, crawl through a narrow/low opening while the Wizard and Cleric rest until the next day so they can prepare Gaseous Form or Meld Into Stone. Out in the woods and need to poop something fierce? Turn into a bear! Have a friend who needs to get some insurance? Wild Shape: Gecko, even a Cave Man Druid could do that! With Wild Shape you can turn into a solution to dozens of problems in a standard action without prior preparation.

On top of all that, Druids have Tier 1 spellcasting that can solve any problem an animal form can't, buff themselves and their animal companion into the stratosphere, and reduce their opponents to a pile of ash. Plus they can do all that inconspicuously as a housecat or a stray dog or a bird overhead or a fern. Who cares what your AC is if you can pounce on the foe, trip them, pin them, and deal enough Dex damage that they risk being outright disabled all in a single charge. That opponent is going to have to escape the pin, escape the grapple, and stand up from prone before they'll even pose a real threat.

Talic
2009-02-02, 06:37 AM
Biff has the idea. On top of that, combo'd with PRC's, your abilities become nasty.

While a basic druid can't assume the form of plants, if you don't mind gimping some casting, a Master of Many Forms can. Plus, with Deepwarden (Druid 5/Deepwarden 2/MoMF7), by level 14, your AC can be astronomical. (Shift into a Shambling strider, and use electricity on yourself (least energy gem (electricity) works, as does other methods) repeatedly for insane con boosts, which translate to AC and HP (the bonus would add to HP, as it's not a bonus from wildshaping).

Nature's warrior grants access to a variety of special attacks/buffs/etc.

War Shaper grants extra reach, extra Strength / Con, damage increases/extra attack forms, and the ability to change forms on 1 wildshape.

The list goes on, but even a straight druid is strong (stronger, actually), due to the Tier 1 casting.

Eldariel
2009-02-02, 06:40 AM
Biff has the idea. On top of that, combo'd with PRC's, your abilities become nasty.

While a basic druid can't assume the form of plants, if you don't mind gimping some casting, a Master of Many Forms can.

...huh? Druid 12: Wildshape (plant) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) He'll miss out on the Extraordinary Special Qualities though, which is a pity. And which is what MoMF is awesome for (seriously, Plant Qualities kick ass). And of course, MoMF gets faster wildshape, more uses per day and a ton of other forms (which Druid would either have to burn feats for, or which would be totally unavailable).

mostlyharmful
2009-02-02, 06:46 AM
A creature with the plant type, not an actual plant.

ie, you can turn into a Shambler or Treant with enough levels but you can't turn into a fern.

Bosh
2009-02-02, 06:51 AM
It lets a druid out-fight a fighter and out-sneak a rogue while remaining a full caster at all times. This is a problem.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-02, 06:56 AM
Sure if you wildshape and lose all your items it's not very powerful ...

But in core if you play it smart you wildshape and have your party members put your items on you and stay wildshaped (you don't even need a wild armor, you can use barding). With the MIC you can use wilding clasps to get item bonuses even if you do chose to wildshape in combat.

The big problem really is that NA stacks with normal armor ... no normal character has an AC which can remotely compare to the AC of a wildshaped/polymorphed character stacking the two.

Talic
2009-02-02, 07:48 AM
No, it's possible to boost AC in other ways, and Nat Armor/Armor bonuses are generally not the biggest boost to AC in high armor builds.

Let's look at Fighter Bob the halfling.

Fighter Bob is level 20, and is much man.

He wields a staff, with the Staff defense feat from Comp Warrior.

His gear is: Mithril Full Plate +5, Animated Large Steel Shield +3, Staff +4/+3 Defending, Ring of Protection +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +4.

Bob is sitting at (standard) AC 36 (10 + 1 size + 13 Armor + 5 Shield + 3 Deflection + 4 Natural Armor).

Now, Bob sees a rather large giant with frenzied berzerker levels, and interposes himself between him and the wizard, getting close enough to attack and doing so. He's not so concerned with hitting, but wants to keep close, so as to use his Stand Still feat.

He Fights Defensively (+3 AC, due to 5 ranks of tumble), and takes -20 to hit (Improved Combat Expertise) for a +22 AC (staff defense feat). Shifting his staff's Defender bonus to AC (+3) Nets him an AC of 64, much more difficult to hit. Even so, the giant will likely hit, as fighters don't AC optimize as well as others.

JonestheSpy
2009-02-04, 02:55 AM
About those fleshrakers -


No real arguement, it's a bipedal medium sized animal with essentially grasping forelimbs designed very similarly to humanoids.

I got one argument: druids can only change into animals they're familiar with. A DM who lets his players get away with wildshaping into dinosaurs at will deserves whatever abuse they get. Even a high Knowledge/Nature shouldn't let druids change into creatures they've never actually seen - or ideally observed for a long enough period of time to become intimately familiar with them.

Using a real world parallel - would a druid from Britain think to change into a kangaroo? Would a druid from Japan know how to take the form of a South American jaguar? Of course not. Just 'cause players read it in the books doesn't mean their characters have the knowledge - unless you're pro-munchkin.

If you play in a campaign where dinosuars roam around the woods as common as bears, then well, whatever. Hey, I like a nice "Lost World" type campaing as much as the next geek, but unless you have specific reasons for dinosaurs running around, no druid should have the option of turning into one.

Zen Master
2009-02-04, 03:15 AM
There are a lot of posts in this thread that begin with: The principal issue with ....

The single most central thing to remember about druids is gamemasters.

And thats the end of it right there. No, your friends cannot put your magic items on you after you wildshape. No, sorry, but Master of Many Forms is in a book that's not available to you. No, you cannot wildshape into a Fleshraker, see the previous. And so on.

Druids are actually easy for gamemasters to balance. I'm far more concerned with wizards, because they can be fairly out of control even with just players handbook.

Bosh
2009-02-04, 03:28 AM
There are a lot of posts in this thread that begin with: The principal issue with ....

The single most central thing to remember about druids is gamemasters.

And thats the end of it right there. No, your friends cannot put your magic items on you after you wildshape. No, sorry, but Master of Many Forms is in a book that's not available to you. No, you cannot wildshape into a Fleshraker, see the previous. And so on.

Druids are actually easy for gamemasters to balance. I'm far more concerned with wizards, because they can be fairly out of control even with just players handbook.

Druids are pretty easy to unbalance right out of the box.
First level druid to DM: my animal companion will be a wolf.

And PRESTO! the druid is unbalanced :)

mostlyharmful
2009-02-04, 03:58 AM
I got one argument: druids can only change into animals they're familiar with. A DM who lets his players get away with wildshaping into dinosaurs at will deserves whatever abuse they get. Even a high Knowledge/Nature shouldn't let druids change into creatures they've never actually seen - or ideally observed for a long enough period of time to become intimately familiar with them.

If you play in a campaign where dinosuars roam around the woods as common as bears, then well, whatever. Hey, I like a nice "Lost World" type campaing as much as the next geek, but unless you have specific reasons for dinosaurs running around, no druid should have the option of turning into one.

Yep. That's the reasoning I've banned them in all but one game I've run (no dinosaurs in my world except for the "lost world" world) and the same for both Druids I've run.

But that quotes been taken out of context a little, the point was that once you've wildshaped into a fleshraker you can have your mate stick your magic items back on, that the wildshaped critter has body slots. Removing the particular example of the fleshraker doesn't really stop the argument though, there's lots of powerful forms out there the fleshraker's just the most borked and ludicrous one. Add in the planes and you can wander around Arborea until your Druid finds something redonkulous, likewise a Druidic order has a real in character reason to keep track of powerful and useful forms and train their members to use them.

Also, once you start swinging the Ban hammer (which I do all the time, can't really play the game without it) then we've stepped away from the simple Core set, or the RAW set into homerules and homebrew.

Druids are the easiest broken out of the core book (OK by far the most work since by mid levels you can be controlling upwards of ten things in combat but hey, all full casters are a lot of work), they get more broken with every splat (as does everything but the Druids got a whole nother set of things to break the game with in terms of Wildshape and AC options as well as spells and items).

ericgrau
2009-02-04, 06:51 AM
Okay, here's something I'm really curious about. Could someone please post a build for a good PHB race, core wildshaped druid, with no natural spell and no gear used while wildshaped? 25 point buy is reasonable I think. Maybe level 10, but w/e. No equipping after shaping workarounds, which defeats the whole intent of the errata. Wild armor is ok, since that's core, though it might be nice to see a build w/ and w/o it to gauge its effect. Please give the wildshaped form and animal companion used. Have a reasonable wisdom for casting; let's say 14 minimum since you can always boost it later.

It would be helpful to me if you posted stats for both the wildshaped form and animal companion: AB for each attack, damage, AC and HP. Plus anything else relevant if it's important, like their grapple modifiers. I'm gonna pit them against a creature of CR = character level - 1, since a party of 4 fighting 4 of those is supposed to be a difficult (but not overwhelming) fight. Then I'm gonna see how they compare to a fighter of the same level. i.e., how well the druid can replace him while still being a full divine caster.

So far I've only seen one druid build here and it involves Deepwarden cheese. The FAQ or WotC sage thingy already said that his con bonus to AC is limited by the armor's max dex bonus to AC, so this "trick" doesn't work in general. And if you're gonna give it to a druid, you might as well give him vow of poverty while you're at it.

jcsw
2009-02-04, 07:04 AM
... with no natural spell ...

Well if you're not allowing them to take the most useful feat for their class, make sure you don't let the fighter take power attack or combat expertise or improved trip or anything like that.

Tehnar
2009-02-04, 07:21 AM
Some points I would like to make:

Animal companion:
- the important thing here to notice is
a) the animal has a INT of 2
b) meaning the way to get it to do stuff is by the way of tricks

Reading the handle animal skill means the AC can learn a maximum of 6+ number of bonus tricks. Someone has to teach the AC these tricks, and you can command it in combat (and out) by the way of these tricks limits is usability.

Summons:
At lower levels the druid can summon animals. Which really limits any tactical control of them other then attack the nearest. Also a evil DM cold allow the summons to accidentaly attack the druids allies. After all can the summoned giant crocodile tell the difference between the half orc barbarian PCs, and orc NPCs?

Wildshape:
Aside from the Monk belt and wilding clasp cheese, druids generally have poor poor armor class. Even with wild armor it is still in the general are of being hit with every attack. Also remember most of druids class features go away in their wild shapped form, including immunity to poison and woodland stride.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-04, 07:54 AM
No Natural Spell is completely unreasonable. While you're at it, be sure not to let the Rogue take Weapon Finesse, and prohibit the Barbarian from taking Power Attack. Additionally, the only thing they errated about Wild Shape was changing it from Polymorph to Alternate Form, which they specifically had to include an exception to for gear just so it would continue working as it did before. It was never their intent to simply remove a Druid's ability to wear gear other than Wild armor when Wild Shaped, otherwise they wouldn't have included the Wilding Clasp first in Masters of the Wild and then in the MIC. If you're not going to let anyone help the Druid put on his gear after he's shaped, then also don't allow anyone to help the Fighter put on his Full Plate after he wakes up, because he requires even more assistance than the Druid.

Gnome Druid 10, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Quicken Spell
Str 6, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 19 (4th, 8th), Cha 8
Dire Lion animal companion (Link, Share Spells)
Walks around Wild Shaped into a Dire Lion
Monk's Belt, Periapt of Wisdom +6

He gets the party's arcane caster to give himself and his animal companion Mage Armor each day. He casts Greater Magic Fang (+1 All) on both himself and his animal companion each day. 1st round of combat, he casts Quickened Barkskin on himself and Animal Growth on himself and his companion, and sends in his companion. 2nd round he charges and attacks.

Druid (Huge)
HD: 10d8+60 (108 HP)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft
AC: 31 (+8 Monk, +1 Dex, -2 Size, +4 Mage Armor, +10 Natural)
BAB/Grapple: +7/+26
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +17/+12 melee (3d6+12) and 2 Claws +12 melee (1d8+6) and Bite +12 (2d6+6) and charging 2 Rakes +17 (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 15'/10'
DR 10/Magic
Fort +17, Reflex +8, Will +18
Str 33, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 25, Cha 8

Dire Lion Companion (Huge)
HD: 8d8+30 (66 HP)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft
AC: 19 (+1 Dex, -2 Size, +4 Mage Armor, +6 Natural)
BAB/Grapple: +6/+25
Full Attack: 2 Claws +16 melee (1d8+12) and Bite +11 (2d6+6) and charging 2 Rakes +16 (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 15'/10'
DR 10/Magic
Fort +15, Reflex +11, Will +11
Str 33, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10

If necessary, he can also Summon Nature's Ally IV for 1d3 Lions on the 1st round, then include them when he casts Animal Growth to get the following:

1d3 Lions (Huge)
HD: 5d8+30 (52 HP)
Initiative: Druid's
Speed: 40 ft
AC: 15 (+2 Dex, -2 Size, +5 Natural)
BAB/Grapple: +3/+22
Full Attack: 2 Claws +12 melee (1d6+11) and Bite +7 (2d6+5) and charging 2 Rakes +12 (1d6+5)
Space/Reach: 15'/10'
DR 10/Magic
Fort +12, Reflex +10, Will +6
Str 33, Dex 15, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

ericgrau
2009-02-04, 08:16 AM
I asked for a core build with no gear in wildshaped form, specifically because this circumvents the errata's intent to keep druid's from having gear in wildshaped form (and the original version's intent that this not happen in the first place, for that matter). And it's not uncommon for DM's to disallow natural spell in a heartbeat. Buffs add complication because they consume a round and leave you vulnerable while you cast them; so we have to consider that instead of simply making a direct comparison of stats. And some buffs might be available to the fighter as well. But I can work with buffs included if necessary; it's just more work. And how can you call a class overpowered and then demand a bunch of questionable things as if it were the only fair thing to do? If anything I might find it interesting to see a build w/ and w/o natural spell, but getting him gear while wildshaped isn't something I'd even consider as reasonable. Or if the shapechanging/polymorph errata only intended for the druid to wear barding instead of regular armor, what was the point of the errata - intended to solve a major problem - other than giving a minor inconvenience? I made my other post to try to see what would be reasonable to allow in a game, not to learn how to abuse the system. I already know how that's done. If you want to post that build so others can have something to try out if they want, or to show one way a druid might be powerful (if allowed), then knock yourself out. But it seems like you were responding to my previous post.

Person_Man
2009-02-04, 10:25 AM
As many others have said, Wildshape lets you be a crazy effective meatshield, that's also a full caster. With the right feats, you can turn into an Aberation, or anything with the Cold subtype, or a dragon.

For a less broken version, try the Wildshape Ranger (www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm).

Project_Mayhem
2009-02-04, 10:46 AM
Using a real world parallel - would a druid from Britain think to change into a kangaroo? Would a druid from Japan know how to take the form of a South American jaguar?

To be fair, I would be shocked if I met a Brit who didn't know what a kangaroo was.

Of course in settings with photos and nature documentries, druids are more broken than usual. Walking with dinosaurs you say?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-04, 11:06 AM
I asked for a core build with no gear in wildshaped form, specifically because this circumvents the errata's intent to keep druid's from having gear in wildshaped form (and the original version's intent that this not happen in the first place, for that matter). And it's not uncommon for DM's to disallow natural spell in a heartbeat. Buffs add complication because they consume a round and leave you vulnerable while you cast them; so we have to consider that instead of simply making a direct comparison of stats. And some buffs might be available to the fighter as well. But I can work with buffs included if necessary; it's just more work. And how can you call a class overpowered and then demand a bunch of questionable things as if it were the only fair thing to do? If anything I might find it interesting to see a build w/ and w/o natural spell, but getting him gear while wildshaped isn't something I'd even consider as reasonable. Or if the shapechanging/polymorph errata only intended for the druid to wear barding instead of regular armor, what was the point of the errata - intended to solve a major problem - other than giving a minor inconvenience? I made my other post to try to see what would be reasonable to allow in a game, not to learn how to abuse the system. I already know how that's done. If you want to post that build so others can have something to try out if they want, or to show one way a druid might be powerful (if allowed), then knock yourself out. But it seems like you were responding to my previous post.What's the line I've seen in someone's sig? "Then it was discovered that if you change the rules of the game completely, Monks no longer suck?" That seems to be what you're doing, changing the rules to make Druids balanced rather than debating the RAW. Natural Spell is a Core feat, the only Core feat that only Druids can take. It is an intrinsic part of the class, and I have never had it banned. How do you thematically justify making magic items not work while Wildshaped? I mean, do amulets automatically sense if something is shapeshifted and fall off? That strikes me as unfortunately reminiscent of 4.0's "You must be this strong to wear a ring" mechanic. Gear can be used while Wildshaped. How would you respond to someone wielding the +4 sword while ape-shaped? Wilding Armor is designed to allow you to wear armor while shifted, and it's Core. Or there is Barding(also Core) to let you do the same thing. How do you thematically justify either of those not working?

ericgrau
2009-02-04, 12:34 PM
Um outside of the popular-to-ban natural spell I am asking for a druid build made strictly by the rules. If you want to make one with natural spell too then that'd still be interesting. And if druids can't be powerful without bending the rules in a way unintended by the game's makers (which they even attempted to squelch with an errata), then that's not what I'd call an overpowered class. But that's why I want someone to post a reasonable build: I haven't seen one yet and I want to find out whether or not it's overpowered or etc.

Oh, and a google of "druid barding -bard -boarding site:www.wizards.com" yielded 2 results. Both of which had to do with something else entirely that happened to be on the same page as the druid. A google of "druid barding -bard -boarding" yielded 5400 results, mostly about people trying to armor up their wildshaped druid. I needed "-bard" and "-boarding" to prevent other unrelated hits from coming up, which I noticed had the words "bard" and "boarding" bolded as if they were one of my search terms. "barding -bard -boarding site:www.wizards.com" yielded 25 results, including a shapechanger with no barding or armor of any kind on the same page as an animal with +2 barding.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-04, 12:53 PM
Animals can wear armor designed for them, called "Barding". That is a historical fact. A Druid shaped as an animal, therefore, should be able to wear Barding. Animals can wear jewlery, especially if the bracelets are the proper size, as all magical jewlery is. What I'm asking for is a logical reason why you can't put an amulet on a tiger, if the tiger wants to wear it, and such is allowed by the rules(as it is).

Also, give me guidelines to hit with a build and I will. Level, whether or not I can depend on others for buffs, and what the build is expected to accomplish would be nice starts.

Tehnar
2009-02-04, 01:10 PM
To Biffoniacus_Furiou, with regards to your druid:

By the errata a druid does not change his type as he wildshapes, thus he is not a valid target for a animal growth.

A quickened barkskin is a level 6 spell, and thus a level 10 druid is unable to cast it.

While a monk's belt and a periapth of wisdom could be aquired by level 10, it is extremly highly unlikely that any organic character will have access to those.

Even allowing those two items, your +6 wisdom bonus from the periapt will go away as you wildshape, since it becomes unusable and melds into your form. The way to get around this is to put the periapt while in your wildshape form, but most DMs would find this a tad (very stinky) cheesy. Same thing with monk belt.

Using natural attacks and unarmed strikes as part of the same full attack; I think it is not allowed by the rules, but am not sure.

Edit: Rules of the Game article provides some insight:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

and the relevant part:
Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons

Just as a creature can add weapon attacks to a full attack made with natural weapons, so too can it combine unarmed attacks with natural weapons. Two options are available to accomplish this task.

A creature can choose to treat its unarmed attacks as its primary attacks and its natural weapons as secondary attacks. (This method is normally used to add weapon attacks to a natural attack routine.) The creature must make all unarmed attacks with its primary limb, which prevents that hand from being used for a natural attack such as a claw or slam. It uses its full base attack bonus for the natural attack, gaining additional attacks as normal for a high base attack bonus, and adds its full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Of course, each of these attacks provokes an attack of opportunity if the target is unarmed (unless the creature has Improved Unarmed Strike). However, its natural weapons all become secondary attacks, taking the -5 penalty on attack rolls (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) and adding only half the monster's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

A simpler method is to treat the creature's unarmed attack as an off-hand attack. (After all, an unarmed strike is rarely as effective as a weapon attack would be, so it doesn't really merit the same level of priority in the average monster's attack array.) Instead of using its primary limb to deliver the unarmed attack, it uses a kick, head butt, or other appendage that isn't otherwise used to deliver a natural attack. The creature gains one unarmed strike, which deals damage appropriate to its size plus half its Strength bonus (since it's an off-hand attack). A creature using this method suffers a -4 penalty on all attacks (since it's effectively fighting with two weapons and its off-hand weapon is light). The damage for its natural attacks is unchanged. This method requires fewer calculations on the fly, so it's probably easier to use in play.

Let's look at the nalfeshnee for an example of how each of these methods would work in play.

A nalfeshnee using the first method would have three unarmed attacks (thanks to its base attack bonus of +14). Applying its size modifier, and Strength modifier, the nalfeshnee's total attack modifiers for its three natural attacks are +19, +14, and +9. These natural attacks each deal 1d6+7 points of nonlethal damage. Each of the nalfeshnee's natural weapons takes a -2 penalty for a secondary natural weapon (thanks to the nalfeshnee's Multiattack feat) and gains only half the nalfeshnee's Strength modifier to damage, which gives it two secondary attacks, as follows: one bite +18 (2d8+3) and one claw +17 (1d8+3); it loses one claw attack in order to make unarmed attacks with its primary limb.

Using the second method, the nalfeshnee's natural attacks are made at a -4 penalty (bite +16, 2 claws +13) but deal normal damage. It then makes one unarmed attack at +15 (+14 for base attack bonus, -2 for size, +7 for Strength, -4 for off-hand light weapon) that deals 1d6+3 points of nonlethal damage.

Seems a bit strange (to me) but there it is folks...

Oslecamo
2009-02-04, 01:25 PM
Animals can wear armor designed for them, called "Barding". That is a historical fact. A Druid shaped as an animal, therefore, should be able to wear Barding. Animals can wear jewlery, especially if the bracelets are the proper size, as all magical jewlery is. What I'm asking for is a logical reason why you can't put an amulet on a tiger, if the tiger wants to wear it, and such is allowed by the rules(as it is).


Here's your logic reason:

Rules As Written

Nothing stoping you from puting on ten rings on each of your fingers. But guess what, you only get the bonuses from two of them.

Similarly, you can try to put a magic hat on the tiger custom made for him. But it won't do anything but look silly.

90% of the druid imbalance is because of people stretching the rules.

I once saw a player arguing how a fleshraker could actually cast spells whitout natural spell with some very twisted logic, plus taking feats at 1st level to wich he didn't qualify in the first place, and having his animal companion smart enough to activate magic items by himself. It's those litle details that make the diference.

tyckspoon
2009-02-04, 01:35 PM
Here's your logic reason:

Rules As Written

Nothing stoping you from puting on ten rings on each of your fingers. But guess what, you only get the bonuses from two of them.

Similarly, you can try to put a magic hat on the tiger custom made for him. But it won't do anything but look silly.


The rules as written also say that any creature can wear and use a magic item provided that it has an appropriate body slot to do so and that Wondrous Items and Rings, in particular, should be applicable regardless of the size of the wearer (weapons and armor, however, do not resize.) So a tiger who wants to wear (or be equipped with by his Druid partner, whatver) a magic hat needs only have a head. Does a tiger have a head? Why.. yes it does! Amazing! That tiger can use a magic hat, completely legally by the rules!

PinkysBrain
2009-02-04, 01:56 PM
I got one argument: druids can only change into animals they're familiar with. A DM who lets his players get away with wildshaping into dinosaurs at will deserves whatever abuse they get. Even a high Knowledge/Nature shouldn't let druids change into creatures they've never actually seen - or ideally observed for a long enough period of time to become intimately familiar with them.
Unless the DM writes the background story for his players the players can be familiar with whatever they want. Familiarity is never a concern when talking about the balance of wild shape and polymorph, if it exist they can take the form ... as simple as that. That is what the balancing should take into account.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-04, 01:59 PM
The single most central thing to remember about druids is gamemasters.

And thats the end of it right there. No, your friends cannot put your magic items on you after you wildshape. No, sorry, but Master of Many Forms is in a book that's not available to you. No, you cannot wildshape into a Fleshraker, see the previous. And so on.
Houseruling and rule 0 can fix anything, but that does not mean it is not desirable to have a game which is slightly balanced as written.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-04, 03:14 PM
About those fleshrakers -



I got one argument: druids can only change into animals they're familiar with. A DM who lets his players get away with wildshaping into dinosaurs at will deserves whatever abuse they get. Even a high Knowledge/Nature shouldn't let druids change into creatures they've never actually seen - or ideally observed for a long enough period of time to become intimately familiar with them.


Druids can summon Dinosuars with Summon Nature's Ally spells. So Druids should know they exist.
If you are nerfing his spells: he should know before the game.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-04, 08:39 PM
If you put an Amulet or Bracer on after Wildshape, wouldn't they fall off if you changed forms? It wouldn't meld as it wasn't your true form and the item wouldn't resize immediately so it would just hit the ground. It sounds like a hell of a risk if you had to change forms to escape as your +6 Wisdom Amulet and Monk's Belt would be left behind.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-04, 10:44 PM
If you put an Amulet or Bracer on after Wildshape, wouldn't they fall off if you changed forms? It wouldn't meld as it wasn't your true form and the item wouldn't resize immediately so it would just hit the ground. It sounds like a hell of a risk if you had to change forms to escape as your +6 Wisdom Amulet and Monk's Belt would be left behind.

That is one risk he'd be taking, or he could Wild Shape from Dire Lion form into that of a bird or a fast/small creature to escape, causing the items to temporarily meld into that form.

The game designers never intended for anything to have fewer magic item spots than a humanoid. If it has a neck, it can wear an amulet; if it has a head, it can wear a hat; if it has a back, it can wear a cloak, and so on. They've even made allowances for certain types of creatures, for example a Beholder can wear bracers, bracelets, rings, amulets, etc. on their eyestalks, up to the number and types of items normally allowed on a humanoid creature. A Druid in Wild Shape form can wear just as many of the same types of items that he can in humanoid form, both as-written and as-intended.


On the Quickened Barkskin, for some reason I was thinking it was a 1st level spell. I threw that character together in a hurry and went from memory on most of it. He could easily replace Quicken Spell with Extend Spell and have it last over three hours per casting, or just use a Lesser Rod of Extend.

On the Animal Growth, you are correct that it now cannot target a Wild Shaped druid. Prior to the errata it could, and most games I've played in have grandfathered that in as a houserule, as I said I was going mostly from memory. He can still use it on his companion and summoned creatures, and use Quickened Produce Flame to deal 1d6+5 fire damage on every attack he makes, each forcing the opponent to make a reflex save or catch on fire.


The problem is not that Druids are so powerful, because if you make the Druids less powerful there will still be other Tier 1 classes like Cleric, Wizard, Archivist, and Artificer. The real imbalance in this game is the power gap between the classes. If you explain the Tier System (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) to your players and recommend that they all play characters within 1-2 tiers of each other, nobody will be grossly overpowered or underpowered in comparison to the others. There you have it, a solution based on self-restraint and personal responsibility, rather than DM nannying and arbitrary houserules.