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PrGo
2009-02-04, 06:35 AM
Heya, all!

I was reading my Races of the Dragon and I got interested in the kobold race after reading the chapter about them. So I thought giving them a try.

But the problem is... they have pathetic stats. +2 Dex, -4 str,-2 Con??
Yeah, I know they have good speed and 1 Natural armor but that doesn't seem much... They're even dazzled in bright light!

So can someone help me with this? I'd really like to play one but I'd love to hear some advice.

Thanks in advance!

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-04, 06:40 AM
I use the following stats in my games: +2 Cha and Dex, -2 Str and Con, +1 Natural Armour, 30' speed, Darkvision 60', +2 to all Search, Mining and Trapmaking checks. If your DM won;t let you use that, picking something that allows you to stay out of harms way is the only practical advice I can think of.

Tehnar
2009-02-04, 06:43 AM
- NPC classes are NPC class leves- 3 in terms of CR.
- +2 craft (trapmaking) and +2 proffesion (miner)
- as PCs they make good ranged rogues, sorcerers, wizards. Not too shabby clerics as well.
- darkvision

- http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/ (warning 2 ed material)

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-04, 06:48 AM
Tucker's Kobolds are only useful if you're a DM, though. Unless it's a game where you're defending a dungeon (which could get dull after a while), TK doesn't really help a PC. How are they good as Clerics? Apart from if you use them as Rogue/Caster hybrids using a Cloistered Cleric with the Trickery and Kobold Domains, they don't seem that useful with that class to me. I only really kept the Trapmaking and Mining bonuses because they fit the race's fluff well. Mine also lack light sensitivity.

kamikasei
2009-02-04, 06:53 AM
But the problem is... they have pathetic stats. +2 Dex, -4 str,-2 Con??
Yeah, I know they have good speed and 1 Natural armor but that doesn't seem much...

You can apply a variety of feats and templates from RotD to make them pretty badass.


They're even dazzled in bright light!

Merely an excuse to give them badass sunglasses (sundark goggles from, I think, Sandstorm).

UserClone
2009-02-04, 06:58 AM
Wot also released a set of stats that makes them barely playable, by giving them 2 1d3 claw attacks and Slight Build (opposite of powerful build). Also, there is a ritual you can get at basically the cost of a feat which increases your sorcerer spellcasting by a level.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-04, 06:59 AM
My problem with the templates is that it isn't really solving the fact that the race is weak (it's like paining over cracks in a wall rather then fixing the wall). Also, there may be better uses for feats (and the Eyes slot).

Tehnar
2009-02-04, 07:03 AM
They make good clerics if you don't focus on the melee too much. Due to smaller weight of equipment the - 4 str doesn't hurt you too much, and increased AC helps. The biggest penalty is the -2 to CON, but the higher AC should help with that (typically 2-3 greater then most PHB race clerics).

They might not be the best race to pick for a cleric, but they are far from the worst.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-04, 07:07 AM
I tend to think Clerics need to be able to hold their own in melee due to their single cure spells only being Touch range spells unless you take the Improved Power feat for the Healing Domain to cast 1 cure/level at Close range everyday. (The AC bonus doesn't seem that good to me.)

bibliophile
2009-02-04, 07:12 AM
I am amazed Pun-Pun has not been mentioned yet.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801

jcsw
2009-02-04, 07:14 AM
Heya, all!

I was reading my Races of the Dragon and I got interested in the kobold race after reading the chapter about them. So I thought giving them a try.

But the problem is... they have pathetic stats. +2 Dex, -4 str,-2 Con??
Yeah, I know they have good speed and 1 Natural armor but that doesn't seem much... They're even dazzled in bright light!

So can someone help me with this? I'd really like to play one but I'd love to hear some advice.

Thanks in advance!

Unless you really want to be a miner, this is more useful. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds)

Since you have races of the dragon, look into the dragonwrought feat, while it's somewhat cheesy, you can choose to start at a venerable age and take none of the penalties while gaining all the bonuses.

One thing that Kobolds have over most other races: they have the [dragonblood] subtype, opening them up several feats and racial substitution classes, some of them are in RotD, but there are a good many more in Dragon Magic.
Plus, if you take the dragonwrought feat above, you can take feats normally limited to dragons, and you become immune to things which only affect humanoids.

Bayar
2009-02-04, 07:20 AM
You have 2 claw attacks, 1 bite attack, slight build, proficiency in pick weapons, DRAGONWROUGHT feat that gets you the Dragon type AND you dont get penalties to your stats due to aging, a 1st level arcane spell as a SLA for 1/day (take a feat at 3rd level for 3/day), +1 sorcerer level if you take the greater draconic rite of passage (which isnt a feat), you can abuse Loredrake and White Dragonspawn for another +3 to sorcrer caster level, you dont give a **** about STR since even if you are a barbarian, you can get STR about 22 and have a much higher AC than your tipical barbarian and you get to full attack with your claws and mouth when charging things (Whirling Frenzy lion totem barbarina wenerable dragonwrought desert kobold with Fist of stone as his SLA).


Seriously, these guys are THE most broken race in the entire game.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-04, 07:27 AM
That is pretty broken (it goes back to what I was saying about RotD not really fixing the main problems, though). What do you guys think of my version as far as balance goes?

Bayar
2009-02-04, 07:31 AM
That is pretty broken (it goes back to what I was saying about RotD not really fixing the main problems, though). What do you guys think of my version as far as balance goes?

Do they get +2 CHA because they are extra cute ? :biggrin:

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-04, 07:34 AM
I tend to see them as cute. I mainly gave them that because they are related to dragons, and it fits well with their favoured class being Sorcerer.

Bayar
2009-02-04, 07:38 AM
About balance: You made them stronger, gave them a +2 to a mental stat...

Just think how good THAT is with Dragonwrought abuse. +5 to CHA at 1st level :amused:

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-04, 07:47 AM
I don;t allow people to start as older then Adult in my games; I always start at level 1, so I can't see any justification in letting them start older. Also, my aging penalty system doesn't grant bonuses: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,109.0.html .

JellyPooga
2009-02-04, 08:30 AM
Yes Kobolds have pathetic Ability Scores if you're trying to build a ultra-strength-uber-charge-melee-power-house. However, if you're not building the aforementioned melee-ist, they're really aren't that bad. +2 Dex is never a bad thing...bonus to hit at range, bonus AC, bonus Initiative and bonus to some of the most commonly used skills (seriously, who but rogues ever make more than one or two skill checks in a game anyway?). Small gives more bonus to hit and AC. Then you've got +1 Natural Armour. These guys pack +3 to AC and +2 to hit from the word Go. That's nothing to be sneezed at (it's the equivalent of Greater Weapon Focus plus better than studded leather armour).

Then you can start considering class...they make awesome Sorcerers with the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage and Racial Substitution Levels which gives them [Your Level]+1 Sorcerer casting, a level 1 SLA 3/day and a level [one lower than your highest spell level] SLA 3/day as well as +6 to Knowledge(Arcana) checks. Who cares if they have -4 Str, or even -2 Con? Sure the HP hit hurts when you only have d4 HP, but when it's exchanged for that amount of arcane might, you really stop caring.

Alternatively, you can go Rogue...small sized weapon damage really doesn't matter in the face of Sneak Attack. Slight Build gives you +8 (!) to Hide and the ability to squeeze through stupidly small gaps...that's a lot of stealth/infiltration. Sod the rest of the party, just go assassinate the BBEG on your own!

If you really want that melee powerhouse, you can still largely ignore Strength. 3 levels of Swashbuckler gives your high Dex mod on your melee to hit and your Int to damage. Given that you're going to be playing a smart fighter (you gotta be smart to play a physically weak melee guy), you've already got a high Int (or at least you should IMO), so having that low Str starts losing importance. Take feats like Improved Disarm and Underfoot Combat and you'll soon start making those big dumb brutes look foolish. If you take the Racial Substitution Level for Fighter, you get Dodge and Weapon Focus (for yet another +1 to Hit and AC...what are we at now? +3 to hit and +4 AC at level one...before you start adding anything else). You want to start getting really nasty in melee, play a Ranger. At level 4 you get a Dire Weasel for your Animal Companion...that's a lot of badass at that level. Go for a Animal Companion advancing PrC (like Beastmaster, for example) and that Dire Weasel can get really nasty in addition to giving you the option to get some Mounted Combat damage multipliers (lance, spirited charge, etc.).

In my opinion, however, Kobolds really shine when they multiclass. The free Sorcerer level (well, sort of) means that they can qualify for Gish PrC's faster than other Sorcerer types or as quickly as a Wizard can. Tailor your spells known to whatever other class you have and you're on to a winner.

I haven't even mentioned the Dragonwrought cheese that others have pointed out or the 'cool factor' of having wings or the bizarre Kobold Endurance Feat (seriously, I mean wtf?) or the thematic (and not half bad) PrC's in RotD or the options that the Draconomicon gives you...

Bosh
2009-02-04, 09:03 AM
These guys pack +3 to AC and +2 to hit from the word Go

Exactly and that's damn good. Basically just pick a class where your strength score doesn't matter at all and kobolds are one of the strongest races bar none.

chiasaur11
2009-02-04, 10:35 AM
A better question: What AREN'T Kobolds good for?

The answer seems to be basic facepunchery. It's a loss, but they make up for it with everything else.

PrGo
2009-02-04, 12:19 PM
Ok, so in what book can I find the new stats? I mean the ones with Slight Build

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-04, 12:24 PM
Ok, so in what book can I find the new stats? I mean the ones with Slight BuildNot a book, a Web Enhancement, available free (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

JellyPooga
2009-02-04, 01:44 PM
There was somthing else I forgot to mention: The Roleplay Perspective (aka: the RpP).

As far as character builds go (mechanically) Kobolds are now pretty good with Races of the Dragon backing them up, but something overlooked is their heroic potential, their character quirks and foibles and general playability outside of the combat arena.

As a race, Kobolds are industrious, family oriented and selfless. Quite why they're listed as 'Usually Lawful Evil' I don't know. Apparantly it's because they have this hatred of Gnomes, but when you consider their mythology, the only reason they hate gnomes is because the good ol' Garl, God of Gnomes, boned Kurtlemak to kingdom come and since then, the Gnomes have been wailing on Kobolds for no good reason...I think I'd be a little pissy if a whole race wanted me dead because they were jealous of how good my race was a thousand years ago (or however long it was). Anyway, the point is, is that this setup (regardless of who's right/wrong in it), gives Kobolds a perfect opportunity to indulge in some flaming self-righteousness; *BING!* Roleplay XP right there!

They're natural team-players too, so even if the rest of the party are a little wary of them, if the Kobold thinks he's part of the team, then he'll likely be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good of the party as a whole. That's gotta score bonus points with the other player characters.

If you're not into the whole 'team player' thing, you can always focus on the "arrogance of being decended from dragons" aspect. When you share a connection with, arguably, the most powerful beings in the world, you can really go to town looking down (up?) your nose (snout? muzzle?) at the "inferior" races. Especially appropriate if you're going down the Dragonwrought/Draconic Heritage route.

Then there's the cunning trapmaker/dungeon craft schtick. Whilst humans and elves might feel out of place crawling through tight tunnels and dank dungeon corridors, having to negotiate their way through traps and mazes, you feel right at home, perhaps even more so than the dwarf, who's probably more used to vast underground cities than what is effectively a mine with living quarters. Thinking of which, Kobolds could also be said to be semi-nomadic; when the ore runs out, they simply pack up and leave to go find more. That too could be something to explore; perhaps the last time your tribe moved was in your lifetime, or the reason you started adventuring?

I've barely scratched the surface with RP opps for Kobolds, but I could go on for pages and pages yet, so I'll stop now.

Athaniar
2009-02-04, 03:20 PM
You know what would be great? A setting in which kobolds, led by an epic-level cleric of Kurtulmak, have taken over large portions of the world and completely eradicated the gnomes. Also, kobold stats should indeed be +2 Cha and Dex, -2 Str and Con.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-04, 11:00 PM
There was somthing else I forgot to mention: The Roleplay Perspective (aka: the RpP).


"It's fun to roleplay" is not a very good answer to "what makes a race good?", because it has nothing to do with mechanics, and every race can be fun to roleplay depending on the player.

zakk2to2
2009-02-04, 11:27 PM
i think that they are good for anything if you get good stat rolls. for facepunchery just use weapon finese to use dex instead of str. also they have a 30ft move instead of most small races 20ft move. that just makes them awsome in my book.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-05, 12:08 AM
My DM ruled that kobolds are -1 LA. I wanted to be a gestalt kobold necropolitan factotum//egoist anyway, so I used that point of LA to take the evolved undead template.

+2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 Natural Armor, Level 5/6 Spell-Like Ability 1/day, and Fast Healing 3? Essentially for free? Heck yes!

JellyPooga
2009-02-05, 03:40 AM
"It's fun to roleplay" is not a very good answer to "what makes a race good?", because it has nothing to do with mechanics, and every race can be fun to roleplay depending on the player.

In most cass I'd agree with you...all races are fun to play. However, in this particular example, pointing out the roleplaying potential is a worthy endeavour because many people will just think of kobolds as a one-dimensional "monster" race and may overlook some of the options available in this respect, thus getting the impression that they are not fun to play. The material in RotD expands their character depth and potential and although it's not anything to do with the mechanics that the OP was asking about, I thought it worth pointing out that they're something more than just horde grunts to be mown down by adventurers.

PrGo
2009-02-05, 04:55 AM
No, no. I apologize for not specifying, but I meant what makes them fun to play both statistically and for roleplaying.

Thank you a lot, JellyPooga, those two posts made kobolds really shine in my eyes and I've decided to try playing them a couple of times.

Thanks everyone :smallbiggrin:

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-05, 04:59 AM
Regarding alignment, I agree about it not making much sense that they are listed as LE. (The fact that they can be sadistic is the only thing I can think of, but I don't personally class that as evil if it's directed, for instance, at larger creatures who want to invade your home for treasure). Also, I agree with Tengu (I tend to see races as collections of stats while often role-playing them however I want to, hence my first evil chearacter being an LE Halfling Beguiller who I based off Wesker from the Residant Evil games).

Jelly, would you class my version as overpowered? I'm just curious due to how it has the advantages you mentioned as well as better stats. (By the way, thanks for agreeing with my stats, Lord Xavious.:smallsmile:)

JellyPooga
2009-02-05, 10:16 AM
Jelly, would you class my version as overpowered? I'm just curious due to how it has the advantages you mentioned as well as better stats. (By the way, thanks for agreeing with my stats, Lord Xavious.:smallsmile:)

I wouldn't say overpowered; Kobolds are underpowered as written, even the RotD...even the game designers admit that, which is why they released the variant with Slight Build and Natural Weapons, etc. Adding +2 Str and +2 Cha to their current stat line is not horrendously overbearing, though it does mean that their already formidable Sorcerous power is increased which might deterr some GMs from allowing it.

However, I personally don't like your version and here's why:

1)To my mind, Kobolds are physically weak, more so than just because they're short (i.e. Small Size). They're supposed to be spindly and frail (hence the Slight Build). So just -2 Str I don't think is enough. After all, that's the same as a Halfling and I see individual Kobolds being weaker than the shire-folk. The Kobolds' strength is in numbers and cunning, not raw brutality.

2)Kobolds are selfless and as individuals do not generally do well (Player Characters being the exception, but so are PCs of all races). As such, I don't think they deserve the Cha bonus. However, Kobolds are supposed to have deep potential, an asset of their draconic heritage, so I can see where you're coming with it. Having said that, the Kobold Paragon class reflects this potential by giving a Cha bonus. Think of it as Kobolds that take the Paragon class have 'unlocked' some of the potential in their blood. For me, that's where the Cha bonus should be...not for every Kobold out there, because the average kobold is pretty much just a cog in the great machine that is their tribe. If I were to give them any bonus to mental stats, I'd probably put it on Int to represent their cunning and deviousness.

I'm not saying your version is bad, I can see the reasoning and it's certainly not overpowered in my opinion (though others might disagree). However, I personally don't see any reason to change the stats they already have. I think they represent the race well and pose a challenge both from a gaming-mechanical point of view and a roleplaying perspective.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-05, 10:35 AM
Thanks for explaining. I thought a -4 Str penalty didn't make sense based on the fact that Kobolds are apparently heavier and shorter then Halflings on average, and the fact that they aren't depicted as being fat suggests that the weight probably comes from muscle. The Int bonus could make sense to a degree, but I still think the fact that they are all descended from Dragons , combined with having Sorcerer as a Favoured Class, means that Cha makes more sense. I changed the stats for my world due to liking players to use non-standard races without being persecuted from a mechanics perspective (hence my tendancy to nerf monsters which have LA if players want to use them).