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Blackfang108
2009-02-04, 03:49 PM
What's the general Consensus on the Soulknife class?

It seems interesting, but I thought I'd ask people's opinions.

Looking at Githzerai Soulknife, ECL 22. (Soulknife 20)

TWF chain
Weapon Finesse

feat suggestions are welcome. I believe i have 2-3 Feats I'm still Hemming on.

STR: 11
DEX: 26:smallbiggrin:
CON:14
INT:11
WIS:14
CHA:10

Reprinted from below:
CAMPAIGN POINTS OF NOTE: Epic level(obviously), extrememly low wealth campaign.

Added:
First: I thank you all for your opinions, observations, and suggestions. I'll keep the suggestions in mind when I get back to my books(so Complete Psion Isn't a waste of time. Good.).

Second: The group I play with are not optimizers.

None of them care if I have a class that isn't t3h ub3r. (We have a Monk. I figure I'll at least be more effective than him.)

RMS Oceanic
2009-02-04, 03:52 PM
You don't get much. A +9 weapon that you can throw around. You don't get enough to compliment it, in my opinion.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-04, 04:03 PM
The Soulbow PrC, however, does help redeem it, IIRC.

Edge of Dreams
2009-02-04, 04:07 PM
Playable, but not impressive.

Biggest issue it faces is wealth by level. If the party gets lots of extra treasure or really shiny weapons, your free weapon won't be as shiny. In a low-treasure or low-magic-item campaign, however, the free weapon is really nice.

Bugbeartrap
2009-02-04, 04:15 PM
same as above, also, if you have a wizard or sorceror capable of casting Greater Magic Weapon, you're even less shiny.

Temp.
2009-02-04, 05:23 PM
The class is terrible.

That much should be pretty clear: it's a melee class without full BAB. Its damage source is a mediocre weapon and a couple d8s which can be tacked onto a single attack per encounter. It has few to no class abilities outside its weapon. This thing is down there with the Samurai as one of those classes that shouldn't be.

And its weapon isn't even very good. If you have a spellcaster of any sort in the party, Greater Magic Weapon makes half the class's weapon enchantments pointless. And the weapon can be a Shortsword or a Bastard sword, period. This means no reach, no tripping, not even a Disarm bonus.

And as an additional insult, the Psychic Warrior gets Call Weaponry at level 1. If you want to be a guy who pulls a sword out of his brain, PW, Warmind or some other Psigish is the way to go.

To make this a class playable alongside the likes of Clerics and Warblades, I would just tack the entire Wilder class on top of it, dropping nothing. Even then the class would be nothing to write home about.

If you want to play it as-is, Complete Psionic has a ton of sorta-kinda-okay Soulknife feats and Prestige classes, the best being Soulbow. The Kensai from Complete Warrior boosts weapon enhancements faster than the Soulknife class can.

As is, I can't see any role for the Soulknife. Maybe some sort of specialized Lurk, ToB or Duskblade gestalt, but even then it sucks. I think this class is just a lost cause.

Blackfang108
2009-02-04, 05:40 PM
... It's a melee class without full BAB. Its damage source is a mediocre weapon and a [5] d8s which can be tacked onto a single attack per encounter.[and can be dropped to do Mental Ability Damage at a 1:1 ratio.] It has few to no class abilities outside its weapon.

And its weapon isn't even very good. If you have a spellcaster of any sort in the party, Greater Magic Weapon makes half the class's weapon enchantments pointless.[Ok, i'll grant you that. On the other hand, saving resources is usually a priority in our group. That's one less spell the buffmonkey(that sounds wrong) has to cast.] And the weapon can be a Shortsword, [2 shortswords at -1 enhancement, a longsword], or a Bastard sword, period. This means no reach, no tripping, not even a Disarm bonus.

If you want to play it as-is, Complete Psionic has a ton of sorta-kinda-okay Soulknife feats and Prestige classes, the best being Soulbow.[I'll check those out, thanks]...

once per encounter?

Reread the description. It takes a move action to recharge. Most encounters I know take a lot longer than one round.

And by extension, the rogue is a terrible Melee class, right? And the Monk...Wait, Monk actually is fairly poor. (REALLY good Ability rolls can save it, but that's it.)

CAMPAIGN POINTS OF NOTE: Epic level(obviously), [I]extrememly low wealth campaign.

My Duskblade's weapon is a +1 Keen Ghost Touch Halberd. His armor is a +2 Chain Shirt. He has some of the best(current) armor/weapons in the group.

The last person to have a level appropriate weapon had it stolen from him while he was unconsious during a siege of our castle.

A pair of +4 PK Burst Wounding Shortswords that I cannot lose seem REALLY tempting in compairson. 1 CON damage per hit seems like a lot.

AslanCross
2009-02-04, 05:45 PM
I think it's playable, but you're definitely going to feel shafted if you take all 20 levels in it. It's one of those "PrC out of ASAP" classes, because you won't get much done if you just stick to what it can give you.

The best use for Soulknife, IMO, is as a class for psionic villains. I once had a plan for Shadow Flayers (MM5) with enough Soulknife levels to give them the bastard sword mind blade. Sith Illithids FTW. :D

wadledo
2009-02-04, 05:48 PM
Use Incarnum.

Temp.
2009-02-04, 06:08 PM
Reread the description. It takes a move action to recharge. Most encounters I know take a lot longer than one round.If you're doing less than 22 damage with your combined 5+ itinerative attacks at level 22, something is very very wrong. Using your move action for mobility or a full-round attack is almost certain to be a better choice (unless you're using Hustle shenanigans somehow).

And if TWF and mental ability damage are things you want to be good at with a psionic character, I should probably point you at the Lurk in CPsi. As a Swift action it deals up to 13 Intelligence or Wisdom damage per round, no save and it gets a couple sneak attack dice and an actual power progression. Expanded Knowledge (Call Weaponry) will keep the same fluff.


CAMPAIGN POINTS OF NOTE: Epic level(obviously), extrememly low wealth campaign.

Since extra wealth for magic gizmos and armor are the Soulknife's biggest advantage, this is probably going to hurt members of that class more than help. Again, a Psychic Warrior or some other Psigish (one with mobility and defensive options as well as offensive boosters) is going to be more helpful than this.


And by extension, the rogue is a terrible Melee class, right? If it weren't for their 380+ sneak attack damage per round schtick, absolutely. The Soulknife has no such damage source.

[edit:]Actually, you might want to look at the Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d). It's a Sneak Attacking Psionic Intelligence-damager and it meshes well with Slayer. Ranger 2/Egoist 4/Slayer 9/Psychic Assassin 5 would be far more effective than Soulknife 20 without doing much to its fluff.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-04, 06:20 PM
once per encounter?

Reread the description. It takes a move action to recharge. Most encounters I know take a lot longer than one round.

And by extension, the rogue is a terrible Melee class, right? And the Monk...Wait, Monk actually is fairly poor. (REALLY good Ability rolls can save it, but that's it.)

CAMPAIGN POINTS OF NOTE: Epic level(obviously), extrememly low wealth campaign.

My Duskblade's weapon is a +1 Keen Ghost Touch Halberd. His armor is a +2 Chain Shirt. He has some of the best(current) armor/weapons in the group.

The last person to have a level appropriate weapon had it stolen from him while he was unconsious during a siege of our castle.

A pair of +4 PK Burst Wounding Shortswords that I cannot lose seem REALLY tempting in compairson. 1 CON damage per hit seems like a lot.

A single casting of Greater Magic Weapon would turn a weapon into a +5 and costs no money at all. This obviates half your class features.

In fact, in a campaign as you described, I'd pull out my DMM Chain ClericZilla who would buff up the whole party with GMW and Magic Vestments at the beginning of every day, and be ready for a Chain Reach Death Ward and Chain Reach Freedom of Movement for situational requirements. That way, everyone's gear is +5, which takes the sting out of equipment.

To be honest, you do more damage going straight Rogue. At least they get more opportunities to apply their precision-based damage. I'd have two levels of Swordsage tossed in, one at 2nd level and one at 9th level, to be able to pick up Shadow Blade (dex to damage) Weapon Finesse (dex to attack), Island of Blades (much easier to flank), Assassin's Stance (+2d6 Sneak Attack), and Pouncing Strike (jump check to make a full attack on charge) with full TWF chain. At Rogue10, I would choose Skill Mastery with UMD as one of the skills I master, so I can use Wands without needing to worry about rolling anything (not that it is necessary at level 22), and have Wand Sheaths for Wand of Golembane (750 gp) and Wand of Gravebane (750g) so I can sneak attack just about everything.

In other words, the Monk will probably out-perform you in every regard. He has Ki Strike: Magic, so he can hit creatures which have DR/Magic. He will have a higher base attack, more attacks due to Flurry, more damage per hit, better saves, better AC, and in general, better everything.

Keld Denar
2009-02-04, 06:23 PM
Use Incarnum.

+1. Make a Totemist. Totemist killed Soulknife LONG ago and took all his stuff, transmuted it into REALLY SWEET STUFF, and now sits contently on a T3 throne. Better thus than the T5 garbage that is Soulknife.

And Rogue sucks compared to Soulknife like Focus sucks compared to Mustang. While they both get medium BAB, Rogue gets SA, 8+ skills, and class abilities that aren't replicated by....a 3rd level spell. Sure, there are better cars out there than a Mustang (Wizard=Ferari), but its still leaps and bounds ahead of a poorly designed, unreliable, cheaply produced compact.

And really? If its that low magic? Play a Wizard. In games where magic stuff is limited, having spellcasting is even more imba. Take Craft Wonderous Item, and transmute gold into win. Simple as that.

Draz74
2009-02-04, 06:55 PM
If you don't have access to Incarnum, which seems likely (it's a pretty rare book), then I'll throw my lot in with those who are saying you can make a decent "Soulknife" by re-fluffing the Psychic Warrior.

Get Metaphysical Weapon/Claw, and you don't need the party caster to cast Greater Magic Weapon for you -- you can do it yourself. Ha, this is even better in Epic -- there's no cap on the enhancement bonus you can give your weapon, like there is with GMW. So in a normal-wealth epic campaign, when the other warriors would be able to afford, like, +6 weapons, the PsyWarrior can enchant his up to like +8 or +9. Costs a lot of power points, but still potentially very powerful.

Huh, I've never really looked at Epic PsyWar before, but I like what I see. Epic Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManifestation) brings him up to speed on PP/day pretty well, maybe better than other psionic classes (since he doesn't need as many PP as them, and gets more bonus feats). Epic might actually destroy the one disadvantage the PsyWarrior has always struggled with! (Although if Epic Spellcasting/Psionics are allowed, all bets are off and the Psion is again king.)

Choosing between a weapon and claws is tough. A weapon can still be enchanted with other cool stuff like Wounding on top of a moot +1 bonus. And it can do cool stuff like have reach. But Claws of the Beast can be augmented up to massive base damage (see King of Smack builds), and they can't be stolen or disarmed or sundered. You can protect your non-claw weapon from being stolen or disarmed with the Graft Weapon power (or by calling it with the Call Weaponry power mentioned earlier, but then you get a normal weapon rather than one with cool enchantments).

If you need CON damage and you pick claws (so no Wounding), don't dispair. Prevenom is an awesome power that will let you poison your claws over and over again for just 1 PP. Sure they get to save against this 2 CON damage, but still. If you go this route (or, heck, even if you don't!), make sure to pick up the Schism power via Expanded Knowledge, so your second mind can constantly be manifesting cool self-buffs while you are busy fighting.

If you go Claws, make sure you don't overlook Claws of the Vampire. Yikes. If you go for a held weapon, you might want to think about the Slayer PrC for 9 levels, for the sake of your BAB. Extra skill points and free constant Mind Blank don't hurt, either. The big problem with Slayer is that it will delay your ability to get Epic Bonus feats, though you can still pick up Epic Manifestation via your regular every-third-level feats.

If you don't go Slayer and you liked the Soulknife's skills-and-mobility shtick, you could even go into Elocator after you're already epic.

Basically, the Psychic Warrior is terribly easy to re-flavor in any way you like, and is an excellent warrior class all around. If you have any objections, we can probably figure out ways around them. :smallbiggrin:

Temp.
2009-02-04, 07:26 PM
...make sure to pick up the Schism power via Expanded Knowledge, so your second mind can constantly be manifesting cool self-buffs while you are busy fighting.Another approach to this is combining Link Power (a metapsionic feat from CPsi), Hustle and Psychic Meditation.

Linking Powers to Hustle means that when you manifest Hustle (a swift action), you set a second power to come into effect the following round without any further actions on your part. Since it's metapsionic, you lose Psionic Focus. Using Psychic Meditation and the Move action from the Hustle Power, you regain focus and still have a full round's worth of actions to spare. In short this combination provides a +3 PP Quicken with a 1-round delay, available at level 5, useable each round until you run out of PP.

'Course this can be used with Schism too if you really want to crank out the powers.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-04, 07:35 PM
Use Incarnum.

ZOMGWTFyes. Totemist for hella natural attacks, or Incarnate if you feel like maintaining that "I make a weapon from nothing" shtick (which, btw, they can do with Incarnate Weapon). Don't let the 1/2 BAB fool you: Incarnates can be vicious combatants.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-04, 07:39 PM
ZOMGWTFyes. Totemist for hella natural attacks, or Incarnate if you feel like maintaining that "I make a weapon from nothing" shtick (which, btw, they can do with Incarnate Weapon). Don't let the 1/2 BAB fool you: Incarnates can be vicious combatants.The other alternative, if you don't like learning a good system, but you want to keep the "You make me mad? I cut you. I cut you with my brain!" schtick, is to use Warlock. Eldrich Glaive for a ghost-touch glaive that deals way too many d6, as long as you have the proper investment.

Seffbasilisk
2009-02-04, 07:43 PM
If you want to go Soulknife, may I suggest you also go Vow of Poverty? Together, the two of them will more than make up for it being below WBL, and you'll be one of the more solid party members.

Temp.
2009-02-04, 07:50 PM
If you want to go Soulknife, may I suggest you also go Vow of Poverty? Together, the two of them will more than make up for it being below WBL, and you'll be one of the more solid party members. It hurts me to second this, but in your case I have to. If you're using what, 9th level wealth, at ECL 22, this is going to pay off. Especially if you're killing things with mind bullets and brain swords.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-04, 07:55 PM
mind bullets and brain swords

You, sir, have just named the next d20 game.

SydneyLosstarot
2009-02-04, 08:04 PM
I second the Warlock.
low wealth means no UMD goodness,
but he'll still be able to do lots of fun stuff with his invocations.
that is, more than a Soulknife would.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-04, 08:09 PM
I second the Warlock.
low wealth means no UMD goodness,
but he'll still be able to do lots of fun stuff with his invocations.
that is, more than a Soulknife would.

Actually, with a two-level dip in Chameleon, he could do all the magic item crafting as well! With a two level dip in Chameleon, he gets a Feat that he can reassign on a daily basis. Combine this with a Warlock's 12th level ability to emulate any spell for purposes of crafting, and you have the ability to make any item in the game.

Then it wouldn't matter if it is a low magic item campaign, he can make them himself.

Samakain
2009-02-04, 08:20 PM
Make sure to look at complete psonic, for the Mind Cleave and something else feats. Basically it lets you get a free charge of your psychic strike when you deal the final blow to a creature, also the other increases your physic strike by 1d8

Additionally playing a Kalkashri, or wtf ever they are called from eberron allows you to take Soulblade Warrior, which increases the effective level of your soulknife by 2. You can use it to take a 2 level dip into something else or merely as a boost.

By feel and play i had an awsome time playing one, Ignore the munchkins, you can make a very playable character out of the class. Personally i went for the bastard sword morph and the cleave line and make a great pleb cleaner. plus slotting a bastard sword charge with physic strike into someone in the form of a ranged attack is just win.

Adumbration
2009-02-05, 12:55 AM
The Soulbow PrC, however, does help redeem it, IIRC.

This +1. The Soulbow prestige class from Complete Psionic rocks your socks. It gains you Wisdom to damage with your soulbow, several impressive bonus feats, plus the continued progression for enhancements for your weapon.

RMS Oceanic
2009-02-05, 01:09 AM
It occurs to me that a Soulknife/Soulbow//Scout/Ranger/+1 LA Dvati with swift tracker would be a good way of abusing the free weapon, especially if you convince your DM to let you manifest the Splitting ability.

Optimystik
2009-02-05, 01:53 AM
ZOMGWTFyes. Totemist for hella natural attacks, or Incarnate if you feel like maintaining that "I make a weapon from nothing" shtick (which, btw, they can do with Incarnate Weapon). Don't let the 1/2 BAB fool you: Incarnates can be vicious combatants.

Backing this up, especially since both of these have good fort saves and Soulknives don't. (Seriously, Wizards?)

Temp.
2009-02-05, 02:20 AM
(Seriously, Wizards?)They were all sneak attacky in 3.0...

Maybe they were supposed to be Psychic Rogues? Maybe the reason they suck so badly is that Wizards made a typo that left out their 7d6 sneak attack and 6+Int skill points? And Trapfinding?

Optimystik
2009-02-05, 02:22 AM
They were all sneak attacky in 3.0...

Maybe they were supposed to be Psychic Rogues? Maybe the reason they suck so badly is that Wizards made a typo that left out their 7d6 sneak attack and 6+Int skill points? And Trapfinding?

And stealth and UMD and...

KKL
2009-02-05, 02:39 AM
Maybe they were supposed to be Psychic Rogues?

Psychic Rogues? You mean Lurks?

Draz74
2009-02-05, 03:27 AM
Another approach to this is combining Link Power (a metapsionic feat from CPsi), Hustle and Psychic Meditation.

Linking Powers to Hustle means that when you manifest Hustle (a swift action), you set a second power to come into effect the following round without any further actions on your part. Since it's metapsionic, you lose Psionic Focus. Using Psychic Meditation and the Move action from the Hustle Power, you regain focus and still have a full round's worth of actions to spare. In short this combination provides a +3 PP Quicken with a 1-round delay, available at level 5, useable each round until you run out of PP.

'Course this can be used with Schism too if you really want to crank out the powers.

Yes, I actually have a favorite Ardent build that uses this very combo. I like it. (He picks up Schism with his Level 18 feat, too, just for overkill. :smallbiggrin:) But I thought that Schism was much easier to explain to someone!

The beauty of the Linked Power/Hustle/Psi.Med. combo is that you can also use Linked Power for plenty of other powers, if you don't mind losing your Psionic Focus. (My Ardent most often Links buffs to Adrenaline Boost -- only 1 PP, and it's a decent effect even without the whole "quicken another power" aspect.) And you can also use Hustle (aka Pounce Lite) for plenty of other things. Otherwise, without all this flexibility, this combo wouldn't be worth the two feats it requires.


Psychic Rogues? You mean Lurks?

Nope, Psychic Rogues (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). Better than Lurks.

Leon
2009-02-05, 06:30 AM
What's the general Consensus on the Soulknife class?
Second: The group I play with are not optimizers.

None of them care if I have a class that isn't t3h ub3r. (We have a Monk. I figure I'll at least be more effective than him.)

Im not the General Consensus (they are all fixated on Optimization)

The Soul Knife is a ok class, on roughly the same level as any of the other 2nd Line types (Monk, Rogue, Ranger, Duskblade etc)

If the rest of the group are normal players then be a normal player


(While Not currently as its on Hold) I play in a Group that has a Soul Knife in it and he does fine, Other members being a Druid, Cleric, Wilder, Psion and Ranger

(of Course we're all normal players and not worried about tweaking a PC to the max or is its performing the most DPS, the Psion has a +2 LA for instance)

Kaiyanwang
2009-02-05, 06:49 AM
Psychic Rogues? You mean Lurks?

Psionic Class in the archives of Wotc (mind's eye). I consider it a Lurk beta (even if they are not the same thing)

kamikasei
2009-02-05, 08:05 AM
Im not the General Consensus (they are all fixated on Optimization)
...
(of Course we're all normal players and not worried about tweaking a PC to the max or is its performing the most DPS, the Psion has a +2 LA for instance)

That's dismissive bordering on insulting of the opinions of others in the thread.

A soulknife is basically a less capable fighter with a sub-par weapon which can't ever be taken from him. That's pretty much it. Well, it has access to psionic feats but with no powers that's not that impressive and can be duplicated with a race or feat choice.

Optimystik
2009-02-05, 09:16 AM
That's dismissive bordering on insulting of the opinions of others in the thread.

A soulknife is basically a less capable fighter with a sub-par weapon which can't ever be taken from him. That's pretty much it. Well, it has access to psionic feats but with no powers that's not that impressive and can be duplicated with a race or feat choice.

You forgot that he's a frontline fighter class that lacks both stealth and a fort save. Hello, poison!

kamikasei
2009-02-05, 09:22 AM
You forgot that he's a frontline fighter class that lacks both stealth and a fort save. Hello, poison!

Well, that goes under "less capable fighter". He has little he can do that a fighter can't, and lacks much that a fighter does have. It just seems cruel to list all the specific ways that a class is inferior to a fighter, for god's sake.

Blackfang108
2009-02-05, 09:56 AM
That's dismissive bordering on insulting of the opinions of others in the thread.

It would be, but after asking for suggestions for a Soulknife, the majority of suggestions were, to paraphrase: "Don't play that class because it isn't the most greatest." I asked for tea to drink, and they brought me motor oil. That tends to annoy me. I appreciate the honest opinions, but when I ask for advice regarding A, an answer of "Don't play it," is going to annoy me.

Thanks to those of you who pointed me in the direction of Complete Psion, BTW.

Now if I can only decide between Urgosh Shape and Double-Axe Shape.

Although I May just take double sword shape, for the higher threat range.

Also, Illumine Soul looks like it will be fun. (And there is a fair amount of Undead in the campaign.)


In other words, the Monk will probably out-perform you in every regard. He has Ki Strike: Magic, so he can hit creatures which have DR/Magic. He will have a higher base attack, more attacks due to Flurry, more damage per hit, better saves, better AC, and in general, better everything.

From the SRD:

A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Higher Base Attack? When did Monks get a full base attack? They've got 15 at level 20, same as a soulknife.

kamikasei
2009-02-05, 10:21 AM
It would be, but after asking for suggestions for a Soulknife, the majority of suggestions were, to paraphrase: "Don't play that class because it isn't the most greatest." I asked for tea to drink, and they brought me motor oil. That tends to annoy me. I appreciate the honest opinions, but when I ask for advice regarding A, an answer of "Don't play it," is going to annoy me.

You asked for opinions and they were given. The general consensus on the Soulknife is that they're an underpowered class that are bad at whatever job you might decide to give them and therefore should be avoided.

If you've decided you're playing one regardless and want pointers on what works well with it, more power to you, but that was not clear from your OP.

And again, the criticism is not that soulknives aren't "teh ub3r". It's that they're bad. They're worse than fighters. Fighters are not a paragon of optimized might.

That said: I might suggest a Swordsage dip to give Shadow Blade, letting you focus on Dex and dump Str. The Soulbow prestige class is also widely praised as redeeming Soulknife. A Dex/Wis DAD build wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

RMS Oceanic
2009-02-05, 10:22 AM
Okay, we've got down to the reasons the Soulknife is bad, I daresay. How would one houserule a solution to this problem? Here's my take.

1. Full BAB, Replace good Reflex with good Fortitude save, medium armor proficiency. Proficient with all simple weapons, martial light weapons, the longsword and the two-handed use of the bastard sword.

2. Mind Blade is +1 at level 2, and increases by 1 every three levels. This goes to +7 at level 20, but is still treated as +5 for reasons explained below. Level 21 removes the cap.

3. Any +1 melee weapon-appropriate special ability at level 6. This improves every three levels, up to +5 at 18.

4. Let him keep (Greater) Weapon Focus, Throw Mind Blade, Wild Talent, Free Manifest and Speed of Thought as is. Once Free Manifest is attained, the Mind Blade can throw as many blade as he has iterative attacks.

5. Psychic Strike: +1d8 at third level and another +1d8 every three levels (+6d8 at 18). You can charge it as a move action if you want or, taking a leaf out of Psionic Weapon, you can expend your psionic focus to charge it as a free action. If you hit your target, you can make a free concentration check to try and regain your Psionic Focus. If you miss, you must gain Psionic Focus in the normal way. This stacks with Psionic Weapon.

6. A bonus feat every four levels. Take it from the Psychic Warrior's list, or any Mind Blade Feat.

7. Reshape works like so: You can reshape your mind blade into any melee weapon you are proficient with without penalty. You can also reshape it into weapons you are not proficient with and act as though you were, but at a penalty to the blade's enhancement bonus:
One-Handed Martial Weapon or Exotic Light Weapon: -1
Two-Handed/Double Martial Weapon or Exotic One-Handed Weapon: -2
Exotic Two-Handed/Double Weapon: -3
Two Identical versions of a Light or One-Handed weapon: Additional -1. Because the weapons have no weight, you always take penalties for wielding two light weapons. You must have the appropriate TWF feats to reduce penalties or gain additional attacks.
If you become proficient with a weapon, the penalty no longer applies.

8. Knife to the Soul is gained at 9th level, and deals two points of damage per die given up.

9. Bladewind: At 7th level, a Soulknife can act as he has the Whirlwind Attack feat and attack everyone he can strike without throwing his blade. If he does have the Whirlwind Attack feat, he gets a second attack at each target at a -5 penalty. At 13th level he can now strike everyone within 30 feet.

10 At 20th level the Soulknife gains Weapon Supremacy (Mind Blade) as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't apply for it.

How does that look?

Darth Stabber
2009-02-05, 11:54 AM
Soul knife is a class that I have always liked, but almost never really play. It is not as though I am an optimizer, Really I'm not. It's just soulknife is never good. No, not even then. They have a really cool sounding primary ability, and that is the extent of it. They're a one trick pony with a trick that just isn't that good. Now give them Fighter BAB, rogue sneak attack, some kind of power progression, some kind of maneuver progression, or rogue skills, and you might just have yourself a class. Actually I could see a ToB/soulKnife Gish class with availabilty of exclusive manuevers that take advantage of the unique properties of a mind blade. Honestly the only time I ever actually played Soulknife, I set a building on fire just to watch it burn, and you can guess where that lead. TWF based Soulknife5/PyrokineticistX, not a Uber-powerful character, but it amused me to be a mini Balor.

Suggestions

Psycharnum Blade(MoI) - expend you Psionic focus, as a swift action, to gain bonus damage dice(invested essentia dependent I think) on a mindblade attack. As a note I think this stacks with Psychic strike, so you can start putting up better damage numbers. Requires Con13

Other Incarnum feats - Gain some interesting abilities that can be scaled up as needed. Midnight Dodge really shines given that if you have no other incarnum feats it's as good as Dodge, and with other incarnum feats you have the option of making it better, and it counts as dodge for the purposes of prereqs. Requires Con13+

Dread Commando(HoB) - 5lvl prc, Full BAB, 3 sudden strike dice, +class lvl to initiative to all within ??feet, Reduced armor check penalty.

Draz74
2009-02-05, 12:17 PM
It would be, but after asking for suggestions for a Soulknife, the majority of suggestions were, to paraphrase: "Don't play that class because it isn't the most greatest." I asked for tea to drink, and they brought me motor oil. That tends to annoy me. I appreciate the honest opinions, but when I ask for advice regarding A, an answer of "Don't play it," is going to annoy me.

Um ... when you really ask for tea and they bring you motor oil, I can see why that's annoying. I hate when people override someone's definite plan of what character they want to play. However, there are a couple things to consider:

(1) What will actually happen if you fill your car with tea? :smalltongue:
(2) More important: Maybe you should be more careful how you word the original question.


What's the general Consensus on the Soulknife class?

It seems interesting, but I thought I'd ask people's opinions.

Looking at Githzerai Soulknife, ECL 22.

Bolded for emphasis.

Seriously, it clearly wasn't your intent, but "Looking at," to me, means, "WIDE OPEN to alternative suggestions."

Would you get "annoyed" with a waiter at a restaurant who recommended the house lemonade when you'd said, "I was thinking about having tea today ..."? I hope not. And I think your annoyance here is likewise unjustified.


(We have a Monk. I figure I'll at least be more effective than him.)

I wouldn't be too sure. Soulknife is about as close a match to the Monk as I can think of. At least they're both better than the Samurai ...

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 01:14 PM
Okay, we've got down to the reasons the Soulknife is bad, I daresay. How would one houserule a solution to this problem?

Untapped Potential offers a fine solution. Here're the relevant parts:

-6+Int skills per level, adding Balance, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Swim and Use Rope to the skill list [I personally think Use Psionic Device and Psicraft should be there too] in exchange for d8 HD (good trade).

-Mindblade enhancements come from level 4 and improve every two levels, making for a +9 Mindblade on level 20 (or well, the Blade itself is constrained by non-epic weapon rules so the actual enhancement can't exceed +5).

-The mind blade retains the shape given to it using Shape Mindblade every time it is formed until the Soulknife reshapes it. If the Soulknife loses access to Shape Mindblade due to negative levels or level loss due to death, his mind blade regresses to its original short sword form.

-The class gets a bonus psionic feat level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter (there's no Speed of Thought as automatic bonus though; you could pick it if you wanted to).

-At level 20, the Soulknife gets Double Strike:

"At 20th level, the soulknife's mind blade can retain the energy needed for a psychic strike longer. When the soulknife makes a successful psychic strike with his mindblade, the next attack he makes will also do psychic strike damage, as long as it is made before the beginning of his next turn. Once this second psychic strike is made, the mind blade's extra energy is used up and it will not deal extra psychic strike damage unless imbued again. Ability damage from Knife to the Soul lingers in the blade during a double strike, just like normal psychic strike damage."


To add to that, I'd replace level 1 Wild Talent with Hidden Talent and I'd be done. That said, I'd prefer to just replace the entire class with a Psychic Warrior ACF that acquires the "Soulbound Weaponry"-ability; the ACF already exists for the Psy War and it's pretty much exactly what Soulknife always wanted to be: a manifester who focuses on creating a weapon out of pure psychic power (it's amazing how Soulknife learns all kinds of things about creating a permanent blade out of psychic energy and attacking with psychic energy through it, but fails to learn any other types of psionic skills; imho a Duskbladeish class would make so much more sense, and Psychic Warrior with a soulbound weapon really does that perfectly.).

Blackfang108
2009-02-05, 01:27 PM
Seriously, it clearly wasn't your intent, but "Looking at," to me, means, "WIDE OPEN to alternative suggestions."

OK, I see where the disconnect is.

I've always seen "Looking at" to mean, this is a jumping off point, not suggest anything that might "sound like what I think this guy is trying to do by choosing this class."

While starting with the class/etc given, offer some suggestions to compliment the class given, without saying: "Don't do it at all, do this instead."

I wasn't trying to be a jerk, and I'm not trying to insult anyone.

I wanted to stick with the soulknife as the starting point.

Incarnum isn't allowed in this campaign. (I wish it was. I don't think I'll ever get a chance to use it. I might be able to get a feat from there, though. Psycarnum blade? I'll look into it.)

I want something predominately within EPH and CP. But I don't feel like the bookkeping of a class that has a power progression.

That leaves me with One main class and a few PrC's of options. I may fiddle with soulbow, but the loss of Psychic Strike dice doesn't appeal to me. Maybe a 1 level dip to have a decent ranged attack.

Eldariel, love your post, wish I thought my DM would allow it. (He might, 5 years from now after he reviews it. ><. Ah, heck, I'll print it anyway.)

quick_comment
2009-02-05, 03:13 PM
What I would do to the soulknife class

1) Full BAB
2) Duskblade like manuver abilities.

and then two options

A) Exalted Soulknife: VoP applies to the soulblade

B) Psionic Swordsman: Free gesalt with the kensai prc once he qualifies

Blackfang108
2009-02-05, 03:22 PM
What I would do to the soulknife class

1) Full BAB
2) Duskblade like manuver abilities.

and then two options

A) Exalted Soulknife: VoP applies to the soulblade

B) Psionic Swordsman: Free gesalt with the kensai prc once he qualifies

OK, I get what you're saying with all of these except #2.

I've played a Duskblade. I have an epic one floating around somewhere.

What manuver abilities? Do you mean something like the overcoming Resistance? spells/powers per day, channeling?

quick_comment
2009-02-06, 12:40 AM
Sorry, I meant warblade. That was silly.

Not exactly like a warblade though. Lower initiator level or fewer manuevers