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MeklorIlavator
2009-02-04, 08:22 PM
I currently have a bit of a problem, as I'll be joining a game soon, but I'm not really sure what to play class or concept wise. This is a game in progress, and so far we have the following characters:
Half-orc Barbarian- Normal Beatstick.
Human Duskblade- Similar, perhaps a bit more strategic.
Human Warlock- Ranged based, possible hellfire warlock in the future.
Human Cleric- Melee based, has ability to go Codzilla but seems to be keeping himself from overshadowing anyone. Diverse prepared list.
Halfling Ranger- Mounted archer, knows that the campaign will focus on a few types, and has chosen Favored enemies accordingly. Also, can find traps, and has disable device(HR).

So, what do you think I should make? I have the following books open to me: Core, Complete adv, arc, mage, ToB, Tome of Magic, and Incarnum. The campaign is currently around 6th level. Note, I don't have much experience with the last two books(except truenamer, which I've looked into before), so suggestions on what to look for would be nice.

Frosty
2009-02-04, 08:32 PM
You can't use PHB2 even though there's a duskblade?

I'd go with a battle-field control wizard or sorcerer. Also throw in some Will-save or sucks.

Temp.
2009-02-04, 08:32 PM
It seems like you're going to need someone to cover the standard mass buff/debuff/battefield control role. Wizard or Sorcerer would be the obvious choices, taking group-affecting debuffs and yer run-of-the-mill battlefield augmenters.


[edit:] If I were in your position, I'd probably go for a Shadow Caster just for a change of pace. It's been a while since I looked at the class, but Dark Terrain and Shutters and Clouds looked like they'd cover some of your party's needs.

Since the whole group seems dedicated to tanking and damage and you only have one skillmonkey, a Bard would be a pretty neat choice. Snag PHB2's Bardic Knack with Complete Adventurer's Jack of All Trades if you can. Maybe even boost your Strength and grab a whip and Improved Trip to help make everyone's life easier. If you have access to any Inspire Courage boosters, I can't imagine they'll hurt if the whole party's making 2+ attack rolls per round.

Kyeudo
2009-02-04, 08:32 PM
Half-orc Barbarian- Normal Beatstick.
Human Duskblade- Similar, perhaps a bit more strategic.
Human Warlock- Ranged based, possible hellfire warlock in the future.
Human Cleric- Melee based, has ability to go Codzilla but seems to be keeping himself from overshadowing anyone. Diverse prepared list.
Halfling Ranger- Mounted archer, knows that the campaign will focus on a few types, and has chosen Favored enemies accordingly. Also, can find traps, and has disable device(HR).

So roles-wise, you have:

Tank & DPS
Tank & DPS
DPS
God
DPS

Looks like you could go with a Wizard, Batman-style optional, and not step on anyone's toes.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-04, 08:49 PM
Buffer Cleric/Bard is always helpful. Too bad no SpC or Comp Divine, though. If you can get Cloistered Cleric allowed, that's always nice. The other good option is Rogue, since you don't seem to have a trapmonkey yet.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-04, 08:55 PM
Regarding the PHB2, I might be able to get access to it, but I don't have the book and simply forgot about it.

As for wizard, yeah, that probably would be best. Hm, let me see something...

Oh, and just to reiterate, the ranger has search and disable device, and there is no trap finding.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-04, 09:00 PM
Beguiler, from PhB II looks like it might be perfect for the party.

It's a skillmonkey with a lot of arcane support. Heavy on the Illusion and Enchantment, with some utility thrown into the works.

Failing that, Sorcerer. Focus on the Lockdown and Battlefield Control. Grab a Wand of Knock, and make sure one of your spells known is in the Summon Monster line. When in doubt, summon a monster to open it.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-04, 09:32 PM
Why skillmonkey? The Warlock and the Cleric have the social side of things nailed down, and the Ranger has the traps-related skills.

Also, the cleric has the summon monster line, so I'll probably leave that to him.

Also, to repeat the Ranger has search, disable device, and trapfinding.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-04, 09:39 PM
Rangers don't have trapfinding, so no ... he does not have the trap related skills.

Kyeudo
2009-02-04, 09:46 PM
Rangers don't have trapfinding, so no ... he does not have the trap related skills.

Dungeonscape class variant does possess all three skills.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-04, 09:48 PM
Please read the first post where I say that yes, in fact, the ranger does have the skills, as said by the DM. Unless he is mistaken, and for some unforseen reason cannot actually grant them, in which case I will concede the point.

Temp.
2009-02-04, 10:03 PM
Why skillmonkey? The Warlock and the Cleric have the social side of things nailed down, and the Ranger has the traps-related skills.

Also, the cleric has the summon monster line, so I'll probably leave that to him.

Also, to repeat the Ranger has search, disable device, and trapfinding.

Trapfinding's not the only thing you need skills for.

Knowledges are pretty slick for anyone.
You can never have enough Spot or Listen.
Hide and Move Silently can make everyone's life easier.
Tumble is always good.
UMD is like every spell list in a can.
You can find a use for Forgery. Always.
It never hurts to have extra capable party faces.
Mobility skills are pretty straightforward. And movement is good.
Escape Artist is a winner for anyone who might be grappled, tied up or forced to squeeze through something smaller than their own head.
Use Rope is the one skill I always regret not having at low levels. Whether it's to use that grappling hook or to effectively tie up that Kobold, it's always there.
Spellcraft is good if you ever encounter spellcasters. Given the difficulty you'll probably have avoiding spellcasters, this is neat. Know that the party fighter was Dominated before it's too late.
Sense Motive keeps you from being played the fool. Nobody wants to be played the fool. It's just bad form.

And if the Ranger's being all Trapfindy; who's going to be all Tracky? Will it be you?

:smallohno!:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-04, 10:18 PM
I still say Bard. No one in your party won't benefit from IC, and you can replace anyone who falls. Plus, you don't have much of a skillmonkey, so another 6+int is very nice.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-04, 10:23 PM
Some of those are of notably less value if the party isn't built for it, and while having back-up is nice, covering the basics is nice too, and we already have party-face backup. Also, if I go wizard I can cover the Knowledge and spellcraft skills.

Also, the Ranger is both tracky and trappy, as the Dm is using a houserule.

Edit: Sstoopidtallkid, that would probably be a great idea, but I'm not to familiar with bards, and besides IC, what would I end up doing in combat?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-04, 10:24 PM
Regarding the PHB2, I might be able to get access to it, but I don't have the book and simply forgot about it.

As for wizard, yeah, that probably would be best. Hm, let me see something...

Oh, and just to reiterate, the ranger has search and disable device, and there is no trap finding.


Why skillmonkey? The Warlock and the Cleric have the social side of things nailed down, and the Ranger has the traps-related skills.

Also, the cleric has the summon monster line, so I'll probably leave that to him.

Also, to repeat the Ranger has search, disable device, and trapfinding.

At first, you said he had no trapfinding, which is why I suggested Beguiler.

Now that you have clarified that he has trapfinding, I would say go Wiz or Sorc, pick your flavor. Go heavy on the disabling and debuffs, with a leavening of buffs and battlefield control, and maybe a splash of utility.

Things like Haste, Slow, and Stinking Cloud will likely get you further than Fireball and Lightning Bolt, for example. Rope Trick is a good utility example, Enervation is going to come in very handy, as it reduces a lot of things.

wadledo
2009-02-04, 10:29 PM
One would assume that he meant that you don't need the Trapfinding class feature to find traps, seeing as it is a logical conclusion.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-04, 10:34 PM
wadledo has the right interpertation, but looking back it isn't as obvious as I thought, and my later statement only confused matters. Sorry.

If one were to go into Master Specialist, what would you pick as the specialization? Keep in mind that this character will probably only play up to level 11 at the very most. At the moment I'm thinking Abjuration, but I'm not sure...

Starbuck_II
2009-02-04, 10:47 PM
It seems like you're going to need someone to cover the standard mass buff/debuff/battefield control role. Wizard or Sorcerer would be the obvious choices, taking group-affecting debuffs and yer run-of-the-mill battlefield augmenters.


[edit:] If I were in your position, I'd probably go for a Shadow Caster just for a change of pace. It's been a while since I looked at the class, but Dark Terrain and Shutters and Clouds looked like they'd cover some of your party's needs.


I second Shadowcaster:
Shutters and Clouds path is a neat one: you get G. Invisibility if you use on one person Dancing Shadows (if used one multiple just Blur-like effect).

Dark Terrain path: can make difficult terrain or cold damage.

Ebon Whispers path:
Voice of Shadows can daze an undead or construct (SR No so works on golems) or on a living creature acts like the command spell.

Eyes of Darkness path is okay (Piercing Sight grants see invisibility).

wadledo
2009-02-04, 10:49 PM
Divination and Illusion are the best uses for Master Specialist, and Abjuration is usualy considered somewhat weak overall.
Go Transmutation if you want to help buff, or go Killer Gnome/Illusionist if you want control.

That being said, from what I can see you've got plenty of offensive characters, so a good plan would be to just cast haste on everybody at the beginning of every combat, then switch to whichever set of spells you think is best for your character concept.
Thus the transmutation.
Or you could use distractions and illusions to flank your enemies, where Illusion come in to play.
The other spell schools are mostly not worth it, but I have heard good things about Conjuration, though never actually played a conjurer.

Kyeudo
2009-02-04, 11:24 PM
Shadowcaster is a gimped class due to low spells per day. They lack any sort of endurance at all, especially since most of their spells are 1/day with no ability to prep backup copies.

If you want to use Shadowcaster, I recomend the following houserules to make them more workable:

Shadowcasters learn 2 mysteries per level instead of one. Shadowcasters can only learn a mystery of a level equal to (Shadowcaster level+1)/2 (Wizard spell level progression).

Shadowcasters do not get bonus feats based on the number of paths they have begun, instead gaining a bonus feat at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels. The normal restrictions on choosing those bonus feats apply.

Shadowcasters gain the following class feature:
Shadow Expertise(Ex): A shadowcaster's skill at manipulating dark energies allows him to use his mysteries more often than normal. A shadowcaster has (his mystery-user level X his Intelligence modifier X 1/2) shadow points per day. A shadowcaster can recover a single use of an expended mystery by spending a number of shadow points equal to twice the mystery's level. A shadowcaster can also spend a shadow point to recover a single use of a fundamental.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-04, 11:31 PM
wadledo has the right interpertation, but looking back it isn't as obvious as I thought, and my later statement only confused matters. Sorry.

If one were to go into Master Specialist, what would you pick as the specialization? Keep in mind that this character will probably only play up to level 11 at the very most. At the moment I'm thinking Abjuration, but I'm not sure...

Conjuration. Use the PhB II variant to ditch your familiar to be able to teleport around combat.

Conjuration also includes such wonders as Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, and Grease... all of which are nasty and have saves that boosting won't hurt. It also includes the Orb Of x and Lesser variants thereof, which are No SR, No Save, RTA for damage. Not that you'll be needing to do that with a 'lock in the party, but just in case he doesn't have the right elemental flavor on hand.

Even under 11, Conjuration is a powerhouse. Failing that, Transmutation is also a strong specialty, although it can go to cheese quickly if you go the route of Polycheese. Haste and Slow are both Transmutation, as are all of the +4 to x stat spells.

I do suggest banning Evocation, as your party has enough damage output as it is. I also suggest NOT banning Necromancy, just for the sake of Enervation. Enchantment is a good school to ban, because the most useful stuff there the Cleric can duplicate (GMW and Magic Vestments)

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-05, 01:16 AM
Here's (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=5747) the character so far, only needing gear and 2 feats to complete him mechanically.

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 06:38 AM
On those levels, Extend Spell is a solid feat to take. Also, if there's no crafter in the party, Craft Wondrous Items could be good. Cloudy Conjuration [CMage] is a nice addition to any Conjurer's arsenal; basically just -2 to non-poison immune opponent's saves. It'd also make you able to utilize your Cantrips (caltrops would be ideal, but I'm not sure if it's available in your books; I know it's at least in Spell Compendium though) by filling the slots with Conjuration. Sculpt Spell is also a fine feat for Sculpting Grease, Glitterdust, etc.

Other interesting options include:
Arcane Mastery
Improved Familiar [see DMG - good if you have some skills worth using for the familiar, such as Use Magic Device]
Augment Summoning [you are a Conjurer, after all - you could make use of some summons]

As far as items go, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Sculpt/Extend is a pretty good investment, as are +2 Dex/Con items (by the way, is there a reason you're Wis 14/Dex 12? Seems beneficial the other way around as you get Dex to Initiative). Cloak of Resistance +1 could be useful (unless the Greater/Superior Resistance-spells are in one of the books; again, I know they're in Spell Compendium, but have no idea of their origins). The weakest Bag of Tricks could also be handy.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-05, 03:06 PM
Unfortunately, there's only one conj cantrip that I've found in any of my books so far, the core acid splash, which is not to useful to me.

On items, at the moment I can only get one stat enhancer, which is currently being used as an Intelligence booster. The rods do sound like a good idea, and I'll also be adding some other spells to my book and getting some scrolls.

I'm not sure how useful summoning will be, as we have alot of melee power, plus the cleric does use summons. On that note, I'm thinking of taking sculpt spell and cloudy conjuration as my feats, saving extend for use in a rod.

The Dex/Wis thing is more for the character than anything else.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-05, 04:24 PM
Unfortunately, there's only one conj cantrip that I've found in any of my books so far, the core acid splash, which is not to useful to me.

On items, at the moment I can only get one stat enhancer, which is currently being used as an Intelligence booster. The rods do sound like a good idea, and I'll also be adding some other spells to my book and getting some scrolls.

I'm not sure how useful summoning will be, as we have alot of melee power, plus the cleric does use summons. On that note, I'm thinking of taking sculpt spell and cloudy conjuration as my feats, saving extend for use in a rod.

The Dex/Wis thing is more for the character than anything else.

Cloudy Conjuration is only for Conjuration (Summoning) spells, so if you are not planning on summoning, don't bother.

Summons can be used for more than mere combat, they can also be used to walk down suspicious areas the ranger suspects are trapped, but doesn't want to try to disarm. They can also be created to make Flanking opportunities, which makes it easier for your allies to hit. Making a pack of wolves suddenly appear in their midst is a great way to disrupt a charge, and placing a few near an opponent caster can suddenly make it much more difficult to cast at you since he's provoking AoO every time he tries.

Sculpt Spell can come in very handy if you are trying to avoid allies in your area effect spells, and can dramatically increase the effectiveness of your battlefield control area effect spells. Although not useful to you yet, Quicken Spell will be valuable to you once you hit 9th. Quickened Grease followed up with something to funnel them into the greased area can be a devastating one-two combo. Quickened Grease + Stinking Cloud = not only can they not do anything, they can't get out of it either.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-05, 04:55 PM
If you go Summoner, then I'd highly recommend the PHB-II's Imbued Summoning feat. Essentially, it lets you cast a second spell as part of the summoning that automatically affects the summoned creature. Great for instabuffs.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-05, 05:00 PM
If you go Summoner, then I'd highly recommend the PHB-II's Imbued Summoning feat. Essentially, it lets you cast a second spell as part of the summoning that automatically affects the summoned creature. Great for instabuffs.

I agree. This plus Cloudy Conjuration plus Augment Summon makes for some extremely beefy minions on the fly!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-05, 05:03 PM
The Conjurer ACFs are awesome. Rapid Summoning and Abrupt Jaunt are both incredible. I prefer Rapid if you're primarily a Summoner, Immediate if you do other stuff. Either is really good, though.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-05, 05:22 PM
I don't think I'm really going to go into summoning, and thanks for mentioning cloudy conjuration's limits(new it was too good to be true...). Still, that leaves a feat slot open, perhaps even two(depending on if I really do wish to buy 2 rods). Heh, if nothing else I could get obtain familar.

Draz74
2009-02-05, 06:00 PM
Hmmm, so you already decided? Darn. I was going to recommend a Dragonfire Adept (not in your list of sources, but free online). Great debuff/battlefield control type, but with a crapload less bookkeeping than Wizard or Sorcerer. And pretty good skills, too (4+INT with all Knowledges, social skills, and Spot/Listen as class skills. Oh, and UMD).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-05, 06:06 PM
Well, since you are playing Wizard rather than Sorcerer, you need to be choosy about your metamagic, because you cannot simply apply it spontaneously.

I advise against metamagic rods, they are only 3/day, and the Lesser versions only work on spells up to 3rd level. The regular versions are insanely expensive. Then again, I'm a big fan of not being 'item dependent'.

Basically, look at your spell list, particularly the lower level spells. Think to yourself "Could I apply a metamagic feat to this spell and make it as awesome as a spell of that level". If so, what would make it that awesome? Grab that feat, and do it. If you can't think of a use for the metamagic feat, give it a pass.

Improved Initiative is never a bad feat investment, particularly with your poor Dex. Get the initiative, and with a well-placed spell, could end a fight before it begins.

If you plan on using Rays, then Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot would be a good investment, to make it easier to hit something in melee with one of your meat shields.

If you plan on using a lot of wands/scrolls/whatever to produce effects, Quick Draw might not be a bad decision, since it makes it a free action to pull it.

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 06:30 PM
Lesser Rods will do fine most of the game though; there tend to be enough low level spells worth Sculpting/Extending that those Wands will never be wasted, and Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken allows you to Quicken a few spells without burning all those high-level slots to that end. My Wizards always use a number of Lesser Metamagic Rods (along with standard Metamagic Rod of Quicken once I can afford it) because they're so cheap and so far I've never found myself being sorry for picking them over some other equipment. I mean, just because you can benefit of equipment doesn't make you equipment-dependant.

And yea, you should think carefully of which metamagic to pick. The three generally worthwhile ones are Sculpt, Extend and Quicken, all with varying uses, but the two first having low enough adjustment to make the effect worth it and the last one having strong enough effect to make the adjustment worth it.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-05, 06:58 PM
The problem with the online dragonfire adept is similar to the problem with the Warblade and Totemist: sure, the class is online, but the invocations/maneuvers/soul melds aren't. And not all of the class seems to be described.

The nice thing about rods at this level is that they currently effect all of my spells, and they won't really ever stop effecting about 75% of my spells(I expect the last level that will see actual adventuring will be 9th or 10th). Plus, Eldariel's argument is largely my feelings as well. Oh, and there's only about 3-5 spells per day that I really want to use either rod on, so they should be sufficient.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-05, 07:09 PM
Widen is often useful. 30' grease instead of 15'? Neat.

Draz74
2009-02-05, 07:29 PM
The problem with the online dragonfire adept is similar to the problem with the Warblade and Totemist: sure, the class is online, but the invocations/maneuvers/soul melds aren't. And not all of the class seems to be described.

Totemist: you're right, don't even try to tackle it without the actual book.

DFA: you can kind of fake it. You'll have to guess a little bit about, say, the Save DCs of its Invocations, but other than that it's pretty complete. Its breath effects are even described in full, in the same Preview where the class itself is. Read the Invocations section of the DFA Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=780301) to get a couple extra crucial little notes about them (e.g., Frightful Presence is a swift action).

Warblade: actually, its maneuvers are online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). Just not in the same place as the class description. So you can actually figure out the Warblade completely (unless you wanted ToB-specific feats).


Widen is often useful. 30' grease instead of 15'? Neat.

Sadly, even Widened Grease is only a 20 x 20 area. And Widen is surprisingly expensive, closer to Quicken than to Extend and Sculpt. :smallyuk:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-05, 07:53 PM
Widen is often useful. 30' grease instead of 15'? Neat.

You do have to be careful about Widen... Friendly Fire Isn't.

d13
2009-02-06, 12:04 AM
Widen is often useful. 30' grease instead of 15'? Neat.

Sculpted Grease > Widened Grease

Turning a 10' square into four 10' cubes? Yes, please.

Besides, Sculpt is only +1 Spell Level Adjustment, and Widen is +3 Spell Level Adjustment...


[Note that I'm not an eminence when it comes to spells, so Widen might be more useful, taking into account the rest of the spellbook]

Fax Celestis
2009-02-06, 12:43 AM
Sculpted Grease > Widened Grease

Turning a 10' square into four 10' cubes? Yes, please.

Besides, Sculpt is only +1 Spell Level Adjustment, and Widen is +3 Spell Level Adjustment...


[Note that I'm not an eminence when it comes to spells, so Widen might be more useful, taking into account the rest of the spellbook]

Well, okay. Windened entangle, then, covers an 80' radius sphere.

Keld Denar
2009-02-06, 04:37 AM
I like Lesser MM Rods of Chaining to spread around the luvin that is Nerveskitter. Giving your whole party +5 init is pretty much amazing for those fights you want to go first in.

I also love Lesser MM Rods of Empower for my Rays of Enfeeblement (or even Split Rays of Enfeeblement to hit 2 targets). The penalties you can cause with an empowered RoE are pretty staggering.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-06, 05:45 AM
I like Lesser MM Rods of Chaining to spread around the luvin that is Nerveskitter. Giving your whole party +5 init is pretty much amazing for those fights you want to go first in. Pretty amazing if your DM allows it, you mean. You need to hold that rod to use it, and you can't perform any free action (except speak) when it's not your turn, so you can't even put your hand on the rod as part of an immediate action. This will only work if you constantly carry the rod you might need, ready for an immediate action.

Eldariel
2009-02-06, 05:47 AM
Pretty amazing if your DM allows it, you mean. You need to hold that rod to use it, and you can't perform any free action (except speak) when it's not your turn, so you can't even put your hand on the rod as part of an immediate action. This will only work if you constantly carry the rod you might need, ready for an immediate action.

What else would an adventuring Wizard keep in hand? :D

Keld Denar
2009-02-06, 05:56 AM
What else would an adventuring Wizard keep in hand? :D

Well, those robes ARE very voluminous, so you could theoretically have ANYthing in your hands at any given moment, but no one would really be the wiser, would they?

But yea, wizards don't exactly keep weapons at the ready. Mine typically keeps his Lesser Rod of Chaining and either his Lesser Rod of Quicken or Regular Rod of Empower, depending on what spells he has memorized.