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RavKal
2009-02-04, 10:47 PM
You might remember a while back Atsu333 posted the topic Wizard Duo, asking for help on two wizards working together.

Well, we were looking at the potential of the party and decided that we should really just go as overboard with this as possible, and so our current party is two wizards and three to four cleric(eventually zillas).

The question here is, what else does an optimized party need? Or swap out. We've got six people, and any help is appreciated.

Rules are simply that it can't come outta Unearthed Arcana.

And please, be brutal, the DM said he's cool for it.

Nohwl
2009-02-04, 11:29 PM
you should switch one cleric to an archivist, and another to factotum.an archivist for most of the spells not on the cleric or wizard list, and for dark knowledge. the spell list for an archivist is all paladin spells, all ranger spells, all druid spells, all cleric spells, every domain spell, the adept spell list, (no bard because of the nothing out of unearthed arcana rule, normally you would have them all from divine bard) theres a favored soul variant that allows casting wizard spells level 6 or lower as divine ones, and you get 3 schools as divine spells from the cleric variant, divine magician. if youre using 3.0, hexer gives all of the wizard spells.(it makes things simpler if you use it.)

you want a factotum so you have a skill monkey. spells can do it, but you dont have to waste a spell slot if you have a character dedicated to it.

maybe have another cleric change into a druid or artificer.

Temp.
2009-02-05, 12:28 AM
Huh. The internet ate my post.

Anyway, low levels are a bitch. You're going to have times when you're out of spells or when the baddies make their saves against your Color Spray. You might need a better tank than a couple Clerics. With that, I'd like to bring your attention to the Crusader (ToB), the most absurdly imbalanced class at level 1. Between Devoted Spirit maneuvers and the Stone Bones strike, this class is impossible to kill. And just by being on the battlefield with Iron Guard's Glare, your party becomes much harder to hit. A Crusader level followed by a Cleric multiclass also makes a handy lead-in to Ruby Knight Vindicator, one of the biggest powerhouse classes in melee. See if any of your Clerics would be interested.

And you'll probably be hurting for a skillmonkey. Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer (CM) and Beguiler (PHB2) are probably your chief candidates for the role. Be sure to point out the Darkstalker feat (LoM), a cheap 1-feat investment that lets you sneak up on anything, even creatures with scent, blindsense and other anti-Rogue measures. Also be sure to notice Able Learner (RoD), a feat that makes any multiclass skillmonkey's life easier, especially when meeting strict entry requirements like Unseen Seer's. And the single most important part of the skillmonkey's job: abuse your familiar every chance you get. That thing shares your spells (including Persistant Hunter's Eye, Persistant Cloud of Knives and Draconic Polymorph) and has all your skill ranks. That means a free +2 from Aid Another and a reroll on almost any skill check you fail. Be sure to get one that can UMD, like a Raven or Imp (via Improved Familiar).

Forget TLN's Wizard-Batman analogy. If you want the tool for the job, take a gander at the Artificer (ECS). That's the guy who's packing the Shark-Repellant Spray. Artificers have access to scrolls of spells from any class list 2 levels early. They have the ability to create any tool you need, provide any enhancement you're hankering for and to deal a few thousand damage per round with Metamagic Spell Trigger. Their only constraints are time and money. With the Extraordinary and Exceptional Artisan feats (ECS), a Fortifying Bedroll (CM) and a Dedicated Wight Honunculus (ECS), these aren't as big of issues.

And see if you can get someone to take levels in Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) (HoH). This is like a Wizard, only more so. It can cast spells from any divine list like a Wizard from the Wizard list. It also gets some perks like extra spells, skills and HD. My only qualm with this class is that its spells per day were horked straight from the Cleric list without adjusting 0-level spell slots to match the rest of its progression. As you'll notice, that's a very small qualm.

But as far as play is concerned, I think your party will do well to Summon Monsters to do a bit of the fighting (and hit-taking) for you. Even Clerics get run down, especially if they're running into a campaign thinking they're going to massacre everything. Remember: You aren't invincible. In D&D, it's always easy to give things a couple more levels. It doesn't matter if you're playing with in a Wizard/Unseen Seer/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Artificer/Archivist/Cleric party or a Monk/Healer/Soulborn/Ranger/Warlock/Shadowcaster group; your DM's going to give you just as hard a time of life.

Douglas
2009-02-05, 01:08 AM
And please, be brutal, the DM said he's cool for it.
You asked for it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794):smallbiggrin:

The Persistent Spell buffing that really makes that group so powerful doesn't start working very well until fairly high level, but it shouldn't be too hard to power through things with a Crusader, Druid, caster Cleric, two batman Wizards, and a Wu Jen in the mean time. If you ever do actually get to level 18 with the full group, well... I defy your DM to come up with something that actually challenges them in combat that doesn't have an official CR well into epic.