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drevil
2009-02-05, 05:51 AM
I have a Core Cleric Archer lvl16 with 250.000gp.
I only want to do alot of damage.

Which bow should I buy?

My idea is:
+1 Flaming Frost Shock Holy Composite Longbow (Mighty +10 STR)
with a Greater Magic Item buff.

How does upgrading magic weapons work?
For instance; what does upgrading from +1 to +2 longbow cost?

Eloel
2009-02-05, 05:53 AM
Oathbow is great, if you enchant it further.

drevil
2009-02-05, 06:03 AM
Interesting.
How can I enchant Oathbow further?
Greater Magic Weapon only?
Or can I somehow give it the Fire, Shock, Frost ability.

I have 250.000gp to spend on a single bow.
Surely, there is another more damage dealing bow in core?

Otodetu
2009-02-05, 06:06 AM
How does upgrading magic weapons work?
For instance; what does upgrading from +1 to +2 longbow cost?

Subtract the price of the old enchantment from the cost of new enchantment cost

so upgrading from +1 (2000) to +2 (8000) will cost 6000

kamikasei
2009-02-05, 06:07 AM
Upgrading a weapon: work out the cost of the new item if it was being made from scratch and deduct the cost of the existing weapon. So, a +1 weapon costs 2000gp, a +2 8000; upgrading a +1 to a +2 costs 6000. a +1 flaming sword becoming a +2 flaming frost sword goes from +2 to +4 total, a difference of 24,000gp.

Otodetu
2009-02-05, 06:09 AM
I have 250.000gp to spend on a single bow.
Surely, there is another more damage dealing bow in core?

the great bow deals 1d10 as opposed to 1d8, and the range is a bit better, costs a feat though.

If you have 250.000 to spend on a bow after all your other gear then you surly play a very high powered game... If not then i would suggest equipping your characters with other random magical items before dumping the cash on a single weapon.

drevil
2009-02-05, 06:34 AM
On lvl 16, we start with 260.000gp (according to DMG).
I wanted to use about 100.000gp on equipment, and 160.000gp on a bow.
And then I wanted to pimp the bow further as we play.

Thats why I am trying to find the most effective damage dealing bow in core.

People of giantitp, help a brother-noob!

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 06:46 AM
Oathbow is trash. I've used one, and it's frankly worse than a +1 Holy bow which also happens to cost a crapton less (especially since Greater Magic Weapon trivializes the enchantments), and is enchantable better. Really, your build is pretty much about as good as it gets in Core; Seeking is also worthwhile unless you have Improved Precise Shot, but since you probably do have it, Seeking is rather wasted too. So yea, Holy Flaming Frost Shock bow is fine; just hope you don't run into foes resistant to all 3 elements and it might do something useful.

Get a bunch of magical Bane: Important Enemy Type-arrows for that and you'll be set.

drevil
2009-02-05, 07:28 AM
Bane arrows is a very good idea.


+1 Flaming Frost Shock Holy Composite Longbow (+10 STR)

The most effective damage dealer in core?
At best (with buff and Gr.Bracers of Archery), "only" 30 damage each arrow?
Boots and Rapid Shot is nice, but still, I think there is something missing.

I know people out there can trump a noob like me!

RavKal
2009-02-05, 07:28 AM
Yeah, the bane weapon enhancements are good. I wouldn't get the greatbow, since it costs a feat for some minor dmg/range bonuses. You're a cleric, abuse your spells. You could probably find some way to pimp out just a plain old bow if you tried.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-05, 07:31 AM
Hi,

I would not say that an oathbow is "trash", but for a level 16 character with a STR modifier of +10, it is no longer the best option available...:smallsmile:

Since you are a cleric, you might be able to create the bow completely by yourself with the necessary item creation feat and crafting skill.
In that case, you could go for a +9/+10 equivalent item bonus. That would cost 162,000 or 200,000 plus the masterwork STR +10 bow cost, but
1) either your DM allows the widespread notion that you can save a lot of your wbl by just making you pay the material cost (half of the total cost) or
2) you have the advantage in all cases to get the weapon for the headline price deducted from your wbl; you'll never be dependent on a huge metropolis to buy it from someone.

With +9/+10 enhancement equivalent, you could get:
+1 enhance, frost, shock and holy (the stuff you listed, not necessarily flame, since you can get that from the party wizard's flame arrow), for a total of +5.
Then, add in seeking - it is worth more than just the precise shot feat, since you also get the effect against total concealment (a problem you'll possibly often encounter at high levels).
Then, add in three/four different bane enchantments. It depends on the campaign, but among the truly remaining challenging opponents of the highest levels are: dragons, undead and evil outsiders (and potentially constructs in a +10 enhancement weapon).
That could net you around a total of +7d6+2 per hit against some opponents.

- Giacomo

drevil
2009-02-05, 08:02 AM
Thanks, sir!

But dont you think its better to make arrows of bane instead?
Its cheaper.
I dont want to use a feat on Item Creation, because clerics dont get much feats.

Do you think Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration is handy for high level cleric Archers?
Harm, Holy Word ect still requires Spell Resistance.

Other good Core Bows? Keep 'em coming!

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-05, 08:46 AM
Yes, you can of course also get arrows of bane, but you'd run out of them after a while (depends, again, on the campaign). Maybe replace two of the bane enchantments with an axiomatic power, and then get more specific bane arrows.

Concerning the feats in general:
In case your DM thinks you can lower the item cost this way and thus have more items for your wbl, the item creation feat is certainly worth it.

Concerning the spell penetration feats:
You can get prayer bead item that will add +4 to your caster level, which already does the trick quite well.
Harm and holy word are touhc/40ft range spells, so that may oppose your archery theme somewhat.

For other core bows:
You could also try the crossbow route and dual-wield repeating crossbows with the feats as human: exotic weapon proficiency repeating Xbow, point blank shot, rapid shot, two-weapon fighting, improved twf, greater twf
With boots of speed (haste) and a divine power buff up, you'd have a total of 9 attacks, possibly with two +7 equivalent crossbows.
But that would not make use of your high STR score. You'd get more criticals though, with the improved critical feat.

- Giacomo

Zen Monkey
2009-02-05, 08:59 AM
Are you playing a Dex-based archer or a Wis-based Zen Archer? The answer will affect the range at which you're firing, which affects the decision about which type of bow is best. If you need to be within 30' of your target, then a bow with a better range doesn't matter.

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 09:12 AM
Hi,

I would not say that an oathbow is "trash", but for a level 16 character with a STR modifier of +10, it is no longer the best option available...:smallsmile:

Meh, it's trash in the sense that it costs way too much for what it does. If it was equivalent of a +2 weapon in price, it'd be awesome (and at +3, decent) - it just costs 7000 more than that. The enhancement bonus is almost entirely negated by Greater Magic Weapon starting from level 11 (with a Cleric in party; at that point you get +4 from Greater Magic Weapon and it lasts 16 hours). The 2d6 is negated by the fact that it's not, among others, Holy. Also, you generally want to name Big Bad Evil Guys and those have the annoying tendency of escaping when things begin to peter out, in which case you'll have a Mw. Longbow for 7 days.

At +3 weapon, I might use it, but as things stand, it's just eww. Except the phrase of Elven. That part is cool.


Generally you also shouldn't get a +10 weapon. That just costs too much and if it ever gets broken/destroyed/whatever, you'll cry; in this case, a +6-+7 weapon gets all the worthwhile abilities already so that's where you'll want to stop. When buying a +10 weapon, you'll have to ask yourself if the last enhancements are worth the growing price. In the case of Banes, for example, arrows are so much cheaper. Adding Bane: Anything to a +7 (that is, +1 Holy Frost Shock Seeking for example - good point on Flame Arrow, although the two could stack) bow costs 30000gp. By contrary, a stack of 50 Bane Arrows costs you mere 8000gp You could easily get 150 Bane arrows for the price you'd enhance your bow, and still have ~5000gp laying around. Chances are, unless the campaign solely focuses on one creature type (in which case, getting Bane: That Type is naturally worth it), you won't get to even use 150 arrows of any given type. And additional Banes cost even more; 34000gp for the next and 38000gp for the last.

drevil
2009-02-05, 09:31 AM
This is CORE.
Zen-Archery is not CORE.


I am in a neutral good alignment group.
What is the most usual encounter types at high level?
Dragons, Evil Outsider and Undead? (I know its abit difficult to answer)

Have we found the best damage dealing bow in CORE?



NOT RELATED TO ORIGINAL POST

I would really like to increase my cross-class spot/listen skill.
Is there a CORE-way to make it a class skill? :)
(I did buy Eyes of the Eagle)

If I max diplomacy out with ranks and magic, I can get +35diplomacy.
Can the this skill be used in a battle?
It says that using a full-round action on the skill gives you -10.
1D20+25 can always make "Hostile" become "indifferent".
50% will even become "friendly".
How does it work?

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-05, 11:40 AM
Hmm

Eldariel has a good point on the bane thing. Yep, rather get them as arrows and keep the bow cheaper overall.

Then, your spot class skill idea: in core, it is only possible via multi-classing (a level of ranger perhaps), or even a LA creature (like centaur with +2 LA, meaning you get a centaur Cleric of only 10th level I think - but hey, you also get +8 to STR and darkvision, among other goodies...).
To save some rank costs, you could use the loremaster prestige class (and not lose caster levels) and get the skill rank secret, but that would still mean spot remains a cross-class skill.

Diplomcay indeed works as you said - but watch out, since
- 1 round total time of use means you cannot do anything else WHILE a high-level opponent can unleash the fury on you. Whether you can maintain your diplomacy skill in that case is up to the DM and necessitates normally a quite steep concentration roll (depending on the opponent's action)
- with your roll, you can (as given as an example in the skill description) calm an opponent, but the moment someone attacks again (or you attack), the diplomacy effect is gone. There is no "duration" attached to the resulting state of the diplomacy check, so the diplomacie'd npc or creature will at any moment be able to revert to different behaviour when something new comes up (like your hidden allies appear, or other opponents appear asking why said diplomacie'd opponent has stopped fighting etc.)

- Giacomo

ericgrau
2009-02-05, 11:59 AM
I have a Core Cleric Archer lvl16 with 250.000gp.
I only want to do alot of damage.

Which bow should I buy?

My idea is:
+1 Flaming Frost Shock Holy Composite Longbow (Mighty +10 STR)
with a Greater Magic Item buff.

How does upgrading magic weapons work?
For instance; what does upgrading from +1 to +2 longbow cost?

First off, consider what your main goal is:
Cleric: +18 AB = 12 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) +4 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast)
Fighter: +19 AB = 16 (BAB) + 2 (greater weapon focus) + 1 (+1 weapon)
The fighter also gets higher stats b/c he doesn't need as much wisdom, 1 more damage and 5 more misc. feats to play with. The difference is that, as a cleric, you can buff your buddies as well. Including your fighter buddy, giving him a whopping +23 AB.

With 250k gold and an archer focus, I'd blow half to get a +7 bow and 100 +2 arrows: There's holy (+2), merciful (+1), wounding (+2), frost (+1) and shock (+1). Net +5d6 + 1 con (which is worth more than 2d6). Look up merciful. I don't like flaming because too many creatures are immune, but that can be your next enchantment. The nice thing about arrows are that you can swap in the ones you want to use other situational enchantments people have suggested like bane.

For more attacks get boots of speed unless there's a friendly mage to haste you, rapid shot, and maybe multishot.

The best way to upgrade your spot modifier is to show the DM the spot and hide rules. It is a DC 0 spot check to see something, +1 per 10 feet of distance. Someone engaged in battle, etc. is a DC -20 spot check. If a creature does not have cover or concealment - either because it doesn't exist or the creature isn't using it b/c he doesn't know you're coming - he cannot hide. There, now you only need to get enough spot ranks (if any) to see normal creatures, and as for stealthy ones you didn't have much chance of finding them anyway. You could try scouting with spells like detect evil, though, which penetrates certain objects like wooden doors and certain thin cover.

Draz74
2009-02-05, 11:59 AM
Yeah -- your bow looks good. Now pick up an array of +2-equivalent arrows.

Besides the Bane people have been recommending (which is great!), you can make your arrows Seeking in case you ever need it. And a small handful of Arrows of Distance is definitely good to be prepared with.

One of the big advantages of archers is that they can customize their weapon to match the combat situation, since magic arrows are so cheap. I love it!

drevil
2009-02-05, 12:55 PM
First off, consider what your main goal is:
Cleric: +17 AB = 12 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) +3 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast)
Fighter: +19 AB = 16 (BAB) + 1 (+1 weapon) + 2 (greater weapon fcocus)
The fighter also gets 2 more damage from feats, higher stats b/c he doesn't need as much wisdom. You could grab another +1 from prayer or the like, but it wouldn't be worth spending a round on it unless you have prep time before the fight. The difference is that, as a cleric, you can buff your buddies as well. Including your fighter buddy, giving him a whopping +22 AB.

With 250k gold and an archer focus, I'd blow half to get a +7 bow and 100 +2 arrows: There's holy (+2), merciful (+1), wounding (+2), frost (+1) and shock (+1). Net +5d6 + 1 con (which is worth more than 2d6).


I have Boots of Speed and Rapid Shot :)
The Cleric use 1 round of buff: Divine Power and Divine Favor (Quicken from Rod of Metamagic, minor).
Cleric: +33 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +3 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)
Not to mention all the magic and healing!

Merciful is a great idea! Wow!
But wounding is not available on bows! Only on melee weapons.

Thanks!

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 01:30 PM
Isn't your Greater Magic Weapon +5 by now? CL 16+Bead of Karma each morning = CL20 for your buffs (and the Ioun Stone for an extra +1 for CL21 buffs).

Also, add Quickened Righteous Might (through Metamagic Rod of Quicken stored in your Glove of Storing - free action to pick it to hand and put it away meaning you can just let hand go off the bow as a free action, acquire Rod as a free action, cast the quickened Righteous Might as a swift action, put rod away as a free action and make a full attack) to that buff suite round 2.


And your Spot is as good as it's about to get. You can try the Mw. Tools, ask if you could further get your Eyes of the Eagle enchanted (for a better modifier) and so on, but you're limited to cross-class without multiclassing or non-core feats. That said, Spot is a Wisdom-based skill and a Cleric's Wisdom should be skyhigh on those levels (I'd guess around 30), so you've got fine modifiers to make up for it being crossclass. Core doesn't offer means of acquiring new class skills outside multiclassing.

ericgrau
2009-02-05, 01:57 PM
I have Boots of Speed and Rapid Shot :)
The Cleric use 1 round of buff: Divine Power and Divine Favor (Quicken from Rod of Metamagic, minor).
Cleric: +33 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +3 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)
Not to mention all the magic and healing!

Merciful is a great idea! Wow!
But wounding is not available on bows! Only on melee weapons.

Thanks!

I didn't include AB stuff that both classes had in common before. Alright then, a quickened divine favor puts you 2 points of AB above the unbuffed fighter. Actually 1 point if you don't grab weapon focus. Plus the MAD and less feats. Don't forget to pick up precise shot, btw. Your DM really needs to toss a targeted dispel magic or AMF at you :smalltongue:. I'd refrain from divine power in combats of ~4-5 rounds or less, as you can't afford the casting time.

You'll be better off dealing damage instead of healing except in emergencies, and even then try to only use your strongest heals. For between battle there's CLW wands. Btw, divine casting is my weak point: what do clerics have besides buffs, healing and removing status effects? Do you use touch range SoD's a lot?

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 02:19 PM
Well, with enough work (or Shapechange), the Cleric has all Wizard's spells. Of course, all the non-Shapechange means are non-core so meh. To answer what actual Cleric does:
-Self-buffing as shown here.
-Heal (the spell, not style; it's the only worthwhile healing effect in existence as it heals so much damage that it can actually negate multiple effects from the opponent)
-Area buffs/debuffs and ally buffs (Death Ward, Spell Resistance, etc.)
-Devastating area spells, such as Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos (these are absolutely insane with some CL buffs - no save lose), Control Weather, et co.
-Spot removal like Slay Living, Harm, Hold Monster, Cause Fear, etc.
-Utility like Air Walk, Plane Shift, Word of Recall, Wind Walk, etc.
-Miracle. Seriously, the spell, unlike Wish, doesn't always have an XP cost. The better use of it, replicating Cleric-spells of 8th level or lower and non-Cleric spells of 7th level or lower doesn't cost any XP. It's an incredibly awesome spell and I can't say enough good about it. That said, it's a 9th level spell so that is to be expected.

drevil
2009-02-05, 02:47 PM
Eldariel:
good points! Bead of Karma increases the Greater Magiv Weapon enchant.
Can I use Masterwork Spotting Tool and Eyes of the Eagle at the same time?
Both occupy the same area, dont they?
But its a good idea!

ericgrau:
I dont see how a Fighter Archer can challenge a Cleric Archer.

Cleric: +35 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +5 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

If a foe is able to cast a good dispel magic on a cleric, imagine what the foe can do to a fighter!

Divine Magic is awesome:
Buff: Divine Fvr, Divine Pwr, Shield-o-Faith, Wind Walk, Rightous M, Feast
Defence: Healing, Spell resistance, Remove Disease/Poison, Dispel, Teleport
Damage: Harm, Flame Strike, Balde Barrier
Scrying (useful in high level)
Summon: Gate, Summon Monster, Planar Ally

This is ADDITIONAL to the stuff fighter is capable of doing.

My favorite spell is Holy Word.
Combine it with Greater Spell Penetration, Bead of Karma and Ioun Stone +1CL, and you can paralyze everything (exept some dragons) without any saves.
And their Spell Resistanse is a mere bagatelle.


So the current bow is:
+1 Flamin, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy Composite Longbow
Arrows: Bane [dragon, evil outsider, undead], seeking

Thanks!

ericgrau
2009-02-05, 06:46 PM
For clarification, everything below is semi-unimportant tangent stuff. I think you got what you came for :smallsmile:.

My cleric education
Outside of miracle and domains, is there any way for a cleric to replicate arcane spells? Or is that everything?

Greater spell penetration only applied to overcoming SR, not caster level in general. A bead of karma costs 20k gp, takes a standard action to use and lasts 10 minutes. Basically 1 fight if you get a buff round or a really long fight, or a round wasting trap if you use it when you don't. The ioun stone is the only way I see to get a permanent +1 caster level, and it's a whopping 30k.

With holy word it seems like only extremely weak creatures will be paralyzed. It seems others would immediately run away if smart. Dragons, giants and golems have too many HD to be affected at all. Even so it's still an effective control spell. Does he have other control spells like this?

For the level their direct damage seems kinda weak. Does the high AoE or anything else about them tend to compensate at all?

Spell resistance seems to have too short of a duration to be frequently useful.

A lot of the utility spells seem cool.

Fighter vs. Cleric archer
Mostly addressed above, relatively unimportant and probably irrelevant in the kinds of games your DM runs anyway. But as for the last statement you do have +12 AB in buffs listed.

Spot
It's up to your DM whether he allows a MW spotting tool at all, and whether or not he lets it stack. It seems fishy to me, I mean what is it? The PH already has a 1000gp spy glass, so I don't think it's binoculars. Is it glasses for people who have normal vision?? That you wear under goggles? See what I mean? I wouldn't allow any of it but your DM might allow it all. FWIW you could stack both skill focus and altertness. Heroism could add +2. A stone of good luck could add +1, but at 20k it's expensive. See also previous comments. Seriously it seems like 90% of the time this is the only skill some DM's use out of all ~40 and then they jack up the DCs on everything that moves. Skill checks, especially above DC 10 are supposed to be for things of heroic difficulty. You're not even supposed to need ranks for basic uses. Y'know what, maybe all heroes are near-sighted and really could benefit from a pair of MW glasses.

Battleship789
2009-02-05, 07:35 PM
I dont see how a Fighter Archer can challenge a Cleric Archer.

Cleric: +35 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +5 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

If a foe is able to cast a good dispel magic on a cleric, imagine what the foe can do to a fighter!

Your Cleric's BAB is wrong. It should be a 15, for a total bonus of +34.

Let me shed some light:

Fighter 20: +37 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX, assuming that the relevant stat is identical) + 1 (PBS) + 5 (+5 weapon) + 2 (Greater Weapon Focus) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

Without magic, i.e. both dispelled or in an AMF (assuming the dexterity of each stays the same):

Cleric 20: +24 AB = 15 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon)
Fighter 20: +31 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon) + 2 (GWF)

In both cases, the Fighter has a higher AB and an extra iterative attack. In the first example, this extra attack is only 2 points lower than the Cleric's final attack, at +22 for the Fighter, compared to a +24 for the Cleric. In the "no magic" example, the extra attack is higher than the Cleric's final attack: a +16 for the Fighter as opposed to a +14 for the Cleric.

With splat books, the Cleric outshines the Fighter, though in core only it seems that the fighter actually wins this. (Though I may be missing some information for the Cleric. :smalltongue:)

olentu
2009-02-05, 07:49 PM
Your Cleric's BAB is wrong. It should be a 15, for a total bonus of +34.

Let me shed some light:

Fighter 20: +37 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX, assuming that the relevant stat is identical) + 1 (PBS) + 5 (+5 weapon) + 2 (Greater Weapon Focus) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)

Without magic, i.e. both dispelled or in an AMF (assuming the dexterity of each stays the same):

Cleric 20: +24 AB = 15 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon)
Fighter 20: +31 AB = 20 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (PBS) + 1 (MWK weapon) + 2 (GWF)

In both cases, the Fighter has a higher AB and an extra iterative attack. In the first example, this extra attack is only 2 points lower than the Cleric's final attack, at +22 for the Fighter, compared to a +24 for the Cleric. In the "no magic" example, the extra attack is higher than the Cleric's final attack: a +16 for the Fighter as opposed to a +14 for the Cleric.

With splat books, the Cleric outshines the Fighter, though in core only it seems that the fighter actually wins this. (Though I may be missing some information for the Cleric. :smalltongue:)

I believe he is including magic and as such is including his casting divine power for full BAB.

Eldariel
2009-02-05, 07:52 PM
For clarification, everything below is semi-unimportant tangent stuff. I think you got what you came for :smallsmile:.

My cleric education
Outside of miracle and domains, is there any way for a cleric to replicate arcane spells? Or is that everything?

Greater spell penetration only applied to overcoming SR, not caster level in general. A bead of karma costs 20k gp, takes a standard action to use and lasts 10 minutes. Basically 1 fight if you get a buff round or a really long fight, or a round wasting trap if you use it when you don't. The ioun stone is the only way I see to get a permanent +1 caster level, and it's a whopping 30k.

With holy word it seems like only extremely weak creatures will be paralyzed. It seems others would immediately run away if smart. Dragons, giants and golems have too many HD to be affected at all. Even so it's still an effective control spell. Does he have other control spells like this?

For the level their direct damage seems kinda weak. Does the high AoE or anything else about them tend to compensate at all?

Spell resistance seems to have too short of a duration to be frequently useful.

A lot of the utility spells seem cool.

Holy Word-line is extremely effective against high-powered low HD opponents, such as Liches, Beholders, the like. However, they're most fearsome when coming from NPCs and when used in conjuction with Bead of Karma. They're definitely not a Solve Everything-tool, but CL-1 creatures are already pretty boned when it resolves, and if your CL is...oh, say 21, you could easily break a Balor or a Pit Fiend with it.

Clerics definitely aren't Warmages; I never understood peoples' fascination with Flamestrike. Level 5 glorified Fireball. Blah. A Cleric should rather just layeth the smackdown at that point. Clerics are much better at plain killing things or inconveniencing them; they don't have battlefield control like the Arcanists, but they are very proficient in SoLs/SoSs/debuffs though. They do have some battlefield manipulation spells like Obscuring Mist and Darkness, but nowhere near the level of Web or Solid Fog. Other areas they excel in are obviously undead (both, creating and destroying), summons (mostly just the Planar Ally-line), and all the defensive spells (Spell Immunity, Resist X, Protection from Mind Control [and alignment], Shield Other, Restorations, Heal, Remove Condition, Freedom of Movement, etc.). But offensively they mostly pack SoL-type effects.


And they're the natural buff machines; with access to Beads of Karma, you can wake up every morning and cast Greater Magic Weapon, Death Ward and Magic Vestment for all of everyone's equipment at a ridiculously high Caster Level that's unlike to ever get dispelled and grants superb bonuses. That's also why Clerics like DMM: Persist so much; they can cast all the buffs they want in the morning with Beads of Karma in effect then. That makes for nice Spell Resistance ~33 on level 15, for example (without DMM, Spell Resistance loses much of its allure unless you get an actual chance to prepare for an encounter).

As far as access to Wizard-spells goes, it's mostly a non-Core addition to them; with Anyspell-spells learnable from the Spell-domain or Initiate of Mystra-feat, you get to pick any Wizard-spells whatsoever of levels 2- and 5- for standard and Greater version of the spells. Then there're means to acquire extra domains and make domains spontaneous. And of course, there's the stupidity that is Shapechange, but it's pretty much worth ignoring as it's just as stupid as advertised. Mostly through those means; the domain slot on each level makes a huge difference as you can make a veritable battlefield control Cleric with just those slots, or borrow much of the Wizards' awesome spells in Time Stops, Moment of Prescience, Contingency, etc. Domains serve to greatly versatilize Cleric (who is already nothing if not versatile, being a healer, an offensive spellcaster and a melee warrior...oh, and Diplomat too if he feels like it).

ericgrau
2009-02-05, 09:56 PM
^ Thanks Eldariel, I found that enlightening. Then pieces of it started falling out of my brain so I copy-pasted the whole thing into my notes. I think I need to look more into the SoL's/SoD's, but I'll probably put that off until later.


I believe he is including magic and as such is including his casting divine power for full BAB.

Say you get ~30% more hits as a rough estimate on divine power (e.g., 60% hits => 80%). That means it's break even in a 4 round combat. i.e., you could have just attacked for 4 rounds instead of 3 and had the same effect. i.e., you think you're equal to a full BAB class, but really you're right back where you started minus a spell slot. In a 9 round combat you effectively get a (8*130%)/9-100%=15.6% boost on average, which really is only as good as +2 AB not +4. So this really only fully works if you have a buffing round before combat, and it half works if you have a really long combat. And most combats are not that way.

The real qualm I'd have with his post is he's assuming that the fighter has a +5 weapon. He's better off getting damage enchantments instead. Since the cleric has damage enchantments and a +4 weapon (seriously, is he really gonna use a 20k gold 1/day item in the morning to get his GMW to +5??), that's where the cleric pulls ahead. However, a ridiculous amount of the cleric's AB comes from magic. +8, or +12 with divine power. If a fighter gets some of the same buffs b/c, well, ever friggin' party I've ever heard of has a caster, or if both characters lose all buffs somehow, that's how the fighter pulls ahead. GMW is an arcane spell too, plus if he doesn't have a party cleric for heroes' feast then an arcane caster for heroism will provide a higher bonus anyway.

Dang it, I said I wasn't gonna do this b/c it wasn't that important for the OP. Now look what happened.

olentu
2009-02-05, 10:31 PM
^ Thanks Eldariel, I found that enlightening. Then pieces of it started falling out of my brain so I copy-pasted the whole thing into my notes. I think I need to look more into the SoL's/SoD's, but I'll probably put that off until later.



Say you get ~30% more hits as a rough estimate on divine power (e.g., 60% hits => 80%). That means it's break even in a 4 round combat. i.e., you could have just attacked for 4 rounds instead of 3 and had the same effect. i.e., you think you're equal to a full BAB class, but really you're right back where you started minus a spell slot. In a 9 round combat you effectively get a (8*130%)/9-100%=15.6% boost on average, which really is only as good as +2 AB not +4. So this really only fully works if you have a buffing round before combat, and it half works if you have a really long combat. And most combats are not that way.

The real qualm I'd have with his post is he's assuming that the fighter has a +5 weapon. He's better off getting damage enchantments instead. Since the cleric has damage enchantments and a +4 weapon (seriously, is he really gonna use a 20k gold 1/day item in the morning to get his GMW to +5??), that's where the cleric pulls ahead. However, a ridiculous amount of the cleric's AB comes from magic. +8, or +12 with divine power. If a fighter gets some of the same buffs b/c, well, ever friggin' party I've ever heard of has a caster, or if both characters lose all buffs somehow, that's how the fighter pulls ahead. GMW is an arcane spell too, plus if he doesn't have a party cleric for heroes' feast then an arcane caster for heroism will provide a higher bonus anyway.

Dang it, I said I wasn't gonna do this b/c it wasn't that important for the OP. Now look what happened.

I was only commenting on this line


Your Cleric's BAB is wrong. It should be a 15, for a total bonus of +34.

about BAB and why he used 16 as a level 16 cleric rather then 15 as a level 20 cleric.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-05, 10:33 PM
If you consider the SRD to be 'Core' (most people do) and you allow psionic items in your game, you may wish to consider the 0url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision]Collision[/url] enhancement, which adds a flat +5 physical damage. Even at a +2 equivelant, it's probably doing more damage in the long run than Holy/Axiomatic because it applies to everything, and you don't risk rolling snake eyes.

ericgrau
2009-02-05, 10:48 PM
Sorry, you're the 3rd person I've seen do that recently, so now I gotta pull this card. Nothing personal:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/966480000
http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Misc/Index.aspx?doc=pr_20030612a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030713a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/hq/newcomers (section 6)
www.d20srd.org (seperate column for core and other SRD stuff)

This product was not in the /dndcore/ folder, unlike a certain 3 others:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/966660000

All came from a google search, just taking the first results I got. Though really the final say is up to his DM anyway.

Draz74
2009-02-05, 11:29 PM
(seriously, is he really gonna use a 20k gold 1/day item in the morning to get his GMW to +5??)

I would ... with the condition that I'm also casting a lot of other good hour/level-duration buffs during that time. Magic Vestment on both your own armor and your own shield, GMW on the primary weapon of every character in the party (except the Wizard), and I know there's more (even in Core) that I'm just not thinking of at the moment. (Longstrider if you have the Travel domain ...)

Unless I was trying to cheese out Holy Word, I would rather use my Bead of Karma for getting all those good buffs every morning, rather than saving it to be effective in just one battle of the day.

Draz74
2009-02-05, 11:31 PM
@Shneeky: Holy also has the overcome-DR advantage. Though the Cleric can just always prepare Align Weapon, I suppose.


Though really the final say is up to his DM anyway.

Complete Psionic does say that the XPH is Core, though.

Still up to the DM, considering the other places where "Core" is defined without that caveat.

snoopy13a
2009-02-05, 11:38 PM
ericgrau:
I dont see how a Fighter Archer can challenge a Cleric Archer.

Cleric: +35 AB = 16 (BAB) + 7 (DEX) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) +5 (greater magic weapon) + 1 (Heroes' Feast) +3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Bracers of Archery)



A level 16 cleric would have a +12 BAB and a +4 greater magic weapon (it is class level divided by 4). Additionally as divine favor is a one minute duration buff, a cleric will only have it buffed pre-battle if they are taking the enemy by surprise. Under many cirumstances, the cleric would have to burn a turn casting it.

So, the actual BAB would be 27 pre-DF and 30 after casting DF

A couple of more points:

- A fighter archer has much more feats so they can pull off tactical stunts like Mounted Archery or Shot on the Run (in a dungeon, jump out into a hallway, shoot an arrow (or arrows with multishot), jump back behind cover)

- A fighter archer only has to worry about Dexterity and Strength (for composite long bow damage). A fighter cleric has to worry about Dexterity, Strength, and Wisdom.

- A fighter archer has a higher BAB which means one extra attack at level 16 and if the cleric doesn't purchase the rapid shot feat, two extra attacks.

-A cleric archer has to burn a feat (or choose a deity with composite long bow as a favored weapon) just to be an archer

-Some of the buffs such as Heroes' Feast and Greater Magic Weapon can be provided by a fellow party member so a fighter archer can have access to these.

Battleship789
2009-02-05, 11:56 PM
I believe he is including magic and as such is including his casting divine power for full BAB.

Oh. Right. :smallredface: My bad... Forgot about Divine Power. Well, with divine power the Cleric wins, but only by 2 points (if we use my, incorrect, level 20 situation)... which at least challenges the Cleric's supremacy. It isn't better, but it comes close. At least I got the math right for the AMF...

Back to the OP:


So the current bow is:
+1 Flamin, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy Composite Longbow
Arrows: Bane [dragon, evil outsider, undead], seeking

Looks good.

snoopy13a
2009-02-06, 12:16 AM
Oh. Right. :smallredface: My bad... Forgot about Divine Power. Well, with divine power the Cleric wins, but only by 2 points (if we use my, incorrect, level 20 situation)...




Divine Power is a round per level spell so it, along with 1 minute duration Divine Favor, can't be assumed to be cast before battle begins. If not pre-cast, the cleric has to choose whether or not to buff during battle or not bother casting. A fighter doesn't face this problem.

Obviously, hour per level spells cast by high level characters can always be assumed to be up.

quick_comment
2009-02-06, 12:42 AM
DMM: Persist

Eldariel
2009-02-06, 04:33 AM
Divine Power is a round per level spell so it, along with 1 minute duration Divine Favor, can't be assumed to be cast before battle begins. If not pre-cast, the cleric has to choose whether or not to buff during battle or not bother casting. A fighter doesn't face this problem.

Obviously, hour per level spells cast by high level characters can always be assumed to be up.

Eh, that's where Quicken Spell and Metamagic Rod of Quicken comes in. You can either go Quickened Divine Favor (off slot) > Divine Power > Quickened Righteous Might (off Rod) > Full Attack or just Quickened Divine Power (off Rod or slot) > Full Attack > Quickened Divine Favor > Full Attack. Since Divine Power generally grants you an extra attack, it's worth it first. You also save money by not buying a +Str item as Divine Power covers that.

drevil
2009-02-06, 04:59 AM
I think we found the most lethal CORE bow!
Thanks for your help guys!

+1 Flamin, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy Composite Longbow (+10STR)
Arrows: Bane [dragon, evil outsider, undead], seeking

I can Polymorph Any Object (Domain) myself into an enlarged human (permanent).
This will also affect my bow, and give +2 STR (as enlarge person).

Damage at lvl 16:
2D6 (large bow) + 10 (STR) + 5 (GMW) + 1 (Bracers) + 1 (PBS) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 6D6 (Flamin, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy)
= 8D6 + 20 = 48 damage per mundane arrow.

At lvl16 with Boots and Rapid Shot: 6 arrows per round.

One round of buffing is all whats needed (Divine Power and Divine Favor).
PS! I didnt consider any fire resistance on the enemy.


NOTE:
- The Cleric beats the fighter at fighting. And he still have all the cleric stuff :)
- Cleric does this without being dependant on other people
- Anti Magic Field is very rare
- If a foe can throw a good dispel or AMF on a cleric, just imagine what it can do to a fighter!

Eldariel
2009-02-06, 05:28 AM
With Polymorph Any Object, you could just assume some Giant-form for vast Str, get a huge/gargantuan bow and profit. Anyways, just remember that sometimes you want to full attack first turn already. In that case, just Quicken Divine Power (through a Rod or 8th level slot) and fire away. Sometimes it can be worth it; Divine Favor round 2, etc.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-07, 05:05 AM
I think we found the most lethal CORE bow!
Thanks for your help guys!

+1 Flamin, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy Composite Longbow (+10STR)
Arrows: Bane [dragon, evil outsider, undead], seeking

I can Polymorph Any Object (Domain) myself into an enlarged human (permanent).
This will also affect my bow, and give +2 STR (as enlarge person).

Damage at lvl 16:
2D6 (large bow) + 10 (STR) + 5 (GMW) + 1 (Bracers) + 1 (PBS) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 6D6 (Flamin, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy)
= 8D6 + 20 = 48 damage per mundane arrow.

At lvl16 with Boots and Rapid Shot: 6 arrows per round.

One round of buffing is all whats needed (Divine Power and Divine Favor).
PS! I didnt consider any fire resistance on the enemy.


NOTE:
- The Cleric beats the fighter at fighting. And he still have all the cleric stuff :)
- Cleric does this without being dependant on other people
- Anti Magic Field is very rare
- If a foe can throw a good dispel or AMF on a cleric, just imagine what it can do to a fighter!

Good build!
Some remaining things/potential (minor) pitfalls to consider:
- merciful turns all your damage to non-lethal. Since you do not always know what kind of foe you are up against, you could end up doing no damage at all (and you'd have to use a standard action to turn off the merciful enhancement). That's also the reason why I did not recommend it so far. It is highly useful though, granted, since you can take foes captive with it form a afar. A full arrow volley from your cleric hitting from, say, 300ft away might take out many opponents to question later, and more reliably than any spell.
- you may rely on the +6 enhancement bonus to STR from divine power to get your +10 STR. If somehow your divine power is impeded (you ran out of it, or it gets dispelled or whatever) you get a -2 to your attack roll.

Then, some words of caution (also in case one of your fellow players plays a fighter):
- the cleric does not beat the fighter at fighting. Not even at archery (in case the fighter chooses to also be focused on that; at 16th level he has enough feats). And not even for those couple/rounds of glory that is divine power.
- the cleric is also "dependent on other people", since all his power derives from a divine source which he must follow and (in particular as a shining example of 16th level!) live all day. Otherwise, see ex-cleric entry in the class description and the atonement spell. Best talk to your DM how much emphasis he puts on the rules for this and what he imagines your religion is like.
- AMF is a 6th level spell. At 16th level it might come up, in particular since it is such a powerful anti-magic option (less so from monsters, but possibly with enemy casters).
- The dispel can do so much more to a cleric, since he has decisive buffs on (divine power, divine favour, GMF) that the fighter usually will not have (the fighter tends to rely more on items that would need individual targeting by a dispel).

- Giacomo

Malicte
2009-02-07, 05:52 AM
- the cleric does not beat the fighter at fighting. Not even at archery (in case the fighter chooses to also be focused on that; at 16th level he has enough feats). And not even for those couple/rounds of glory that is divine power.
- Giacomo

Arrow Demon says hello.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-07, 05:56 AM
Arrow Demon says hello.

?

- Giacomo

drevil
2009-02-07, 09:09 AM
Thanks for the input, Giacomo!

Merciful:
I was wondering about this merciful issue: when is non-lethal damage a bad thing?
Its bad if the enemy manage to escape during the combat.
But are there any monsters immune to non-lethal damage?
What other situations is bad when it comes to non-lethal?

STR:
I will probably buy a belt of giant strength +6 just in case!

Fighter:
When played right (tactical buffing), I think [cleric > fighter] in fighting.
Specially if the cleric use polymorph.
Could you, please, make a lvl16 archer fighter in order to convince me?
There is a fighter in the group, and he would really like to get some inspiration!

AMF:
Enemy casters will perhaps suffer more than the cleric from a AMF. But I agree that in a AMF, the fighter suffer the least of all. Still its very rare.

Dispel:
I think you misunderstood me.
If a foe is able to cast a good dispel magic on the cleric, then he is able to do much more terrible things to a fighter!
The Cleric loses a buff. Rebuff.
Fighter gets Solid Fog, Evards Black Tentacles, empowered Ray of Enfeeblement ++
You see my point?

Dependant:
The cleric must worship. Its quite easy. I have never been prevented from worshipping.
Maybe if the cleric get captured, he will have some difficulties.
The cleric is not dependant on other in able to worship.
I can be a neutral cleric without a Deity. I don’t see how my DM will see any problems between me and my Divine Source.


Whats an Arrow Demon? Sounds like a Demon with Arrows.
Enlighten me.

mikej
2009-02-07, 10:55 AM
Whats an Arrow Demon? Sounds like a Demon with Arrows.
Enlighten me.

MM III, pg 34

Assuming the poster meant to change into the Arrow Demon, to make use of the ability to fire two bows.

woodenbandman
2009-02-07, 11:30 AM
To the guy who said that a cleric archer can't beat a fighter archer: You're right. Well, half right, anyway.

Archery is the one place where a straight martial character can shine a little. In the archery world, size doesn't matter, it's all about bonus attacks and bonus damage, and the fighter can get plenty of both. He can get Ranged Weapon mastery for extreme range, and weapon specialization, while a poor choice in a melee weapon, actually adds tangible damage to an archer's shots, because bonus damage is hard to come by. No power attack can help you (disregard the existence of the energy bow), you aren't automatically awesome for being huge (in fact, you take penalties to hit)...

What the martial archer has on the cleric archer is feats. Out the ass. They can be a long range archer and mess with people from half a world away, and do a pretty good job of it, too. They can pick up all the sweet tactical feats and bonus damage feats that make them great. A cleric has to stretch much further to be a good archer, and until you can turn into an Arrow Demon, it's a fairly close contest. At least, in terms of archery.

This all assumes, of course, that in a party, the cleric shares his buffs. If the cleric doesn't buff the fighter, then the cleric is probably buffing himself, and an unbuffed fighter will lose to a buffed cleric in every conceivable situation.

Once you stretch outside of core, though, the gap closes. A Cloistered Cleric pops off a divine power and drops some Knowledge(devotion), and he suddenly does a lot more damage than you.

Zenos
2009-02-07, 11:58 AM
Knowledge (devotion) eh? :smalltongue: I guess you mean the feat Knowledge Devotion.

drevil
2009-02-07, 02:09 PM
I dont see how a fighter archer lvl.16 is better than a cleric archer lvl.16.
I would really like to know!
Fighter has feats and baseattack.

Feats:
Greater Weapon Focus: +2 on attack
Greater Weapon Specialization: +4 on damage

Cleric will get equal base attack after Divine Power.
Cleric will get equal feat-bonus after Divine Favor.

Round one: Rod of Quicken -> Divine Power -> Attack.
Round two: Rod of Quicken -> Divine Favor -> Attack.

Cleric feats at lvl.16:
Turn Undead
Improved initative
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Prof? (if not the elf Domain)
Quicken Spell?

I would really like to see a fighter archer build which is better.

Thanks!

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-09, 06:38 PM
Hi again,

What about this: get your fellow player to also play a fighter archer and you can be quite a devastating duo!:smallsmile:
Having said that, the fighter in core is ahead of the cleric in archery due to several points:

1. usually, throughout the adventuring career, the fighter will put STR first, while the Cleric will put WIS highest (both in point buy as well as stat gains). Therefore, the fighter archer will do more damage (or both will put DEX highest, but the fighter STR second and the cleric WIS, with a similar result).
In case of polymorphing into a high STR/DEX creature, consider the following:
- the fighter can also morph (and with polymorph any object has a permanent buff, too, either through his cleric/wizard buddy, or as a fairly cheap buff from an npc at that level
- what will the cleric do before obtaining the morph opportunity? Moreover, what will he do until divine power is around at level 7? It's no big fun to play a subpar archer with low STR/DEX/BAB for half of your career
- being morphed and dependent on the morph for high STR/DEX one his extremely vulnerable to dispels, which are fairly frequent at those levels.
- while you do not need to have the respective knowledge skill to morph into the most obscure creatures (remember: no outsiders as PHB races! So no archer demon possible, which is not core to boost), you'll need quite high knowledge skills for the creatures you wish to turn into to know about their STR and DEX modifiers. Or else you get accused of brutal metagaming and feel the DM's wrath :smallbiggrin:
- morph is often considered cheesy - but if your DM's OK with it in principle, no problem!

2. The sheer number of feats can do quite a bit for a fighter archer:
- you already mentioned the weapon focus/specialisation road, equaling the luck bonus from divine favor (+2/+4 vs +3/+3; and up 24/7)
- manyshot is a great feat that allows you multiple attacks and move. The fighter can get it three levels before the cleric (6BAB req.)
- mounted combat/mounted archery is even greater since a fighter can make use of a mount: full attack while moving. Ride is a class skill for the fighter to boost. For instance, a fighter could get a couple of bronze griffons; they are a bargain for what they do; can be "stashed away" when not needed, and come back when slain.
- improved critical can easily push the fighter arrows up beyond the 50 damage threshold reliably (even against damage reduction or element resistant opponents). This then will trigger a massive damage fortitude save of DC 15 or the opponent dies. At 6 attacks/per round chances tend to add up after several rounds...:smallamused: Again, the fighter can get it earlier - 4 levels, to be precise.
- still, I would not take precise shot (due to the better seeking enchantment) or shot on the run (too expensive entry requirements). Flyby attack is much better when combined with manyshot (but of course the mounted archer beats everything).
- the far shot feat can avoid that crucial -2 range penalty in many cases.
- the fighter will still have feats to spare for some close combat, in case someone comes near enough to the archer brothers (your cleric and the fighter) to be a threat. For instance, I like quickdraw/combat reflexes/expertise/improved trip/spiked chain: opponents approach, drop bow and quickdraw spiked chain, AoO all opponents with a trip and stop their attacks dead in the tracks. For this, though, you may wish to cut down on the weapon specialisation feats (since they are not that important for a fighter).
So overall, the fighter is more flexible with his archery than the cleric thanks to his feats.

3. In case of a buff round, the fighter can also buff up, for instance with a good hope spell (also affecting others in the group) from a minor ring of spell storing. Or an enlarge effect. (raising the damage of the bow by 2.5 on average and extending the threat range of the spiked chain/improving the trip chances).
Without a buff round, the fighter is far ahead of the cleric. And in case you wish to quicken a divine power, remember that the rod for it costs 75,500 gp, exceeding the money you wished to devote to non-bow stuff.

- Giacomo

PS: you mentioned turn undead as one of your feats -did you mean "extra turning"? Anyhow, I'd recommend the following archer cleric feats as your 6 available feats (the 7th either a human bonus feat or the elf composite longbow weapon proficiency - but be careful, you lose those when you morph!)
Point blank shot, rapid shot, improved initiative, extend spell, flyby attack (with the standard action during the move you can also cast a spell!), quicken spell.

PPS: on this "a dispelling opponent can do worse things to a fighter" thing - I do not think so.
Solid Fog? Simply take full round move out (your speed is just reduced to 5, not 5 total/round) - plus the fighter gains total concealment from enemy spells. Not that great for the opponent.
Black tentacles? The fighter usually beats the grapple check of those, and in case he is not a great grappler, he'll have a ring of freedom of movement at those levels (like many others). The latter btw also renders a solid fog nigh powerless.
Empowered ray of enfeeblement? Not bad, but a mirror image effect (ring of spell storing), total concealment (like an obscuring mist or smoke) or high touch AC can foil it. Increasingly likely at those high levels.

PPPS:
Example simple archer 16th level fighter build, elite array, human.

STR 24 (15 start, 3 stat gains, +6 belt), DEX 20 (13 start, 1 stat gain, +6 gloves), CON 16 (12 start, +4 amulet), INT 14 (14 start), WIS 10 (10 start), CHR 8 (8 start)
AC: 32 (mithral plate +5, mithral buckler +5, DEX bonus, +1 with haste effect on), fighting defensively and with full expertise on: AC 40
Hit Points: 140
Saves: +18 fort, +15 reflex, +10 will
Initiative: +9 (DEX, improved initiative)
SKILLS (5/level, or a total of 95): ride, tumble cross-class up to 5 ranks, handle animal 5 ranks (to gain ride synergy bonus), some listen and spot cross-class.
FEATS
Improved initiative (human bonus)
Level 1: Point blank shot, rapid shot
Level 2: Power attack
Level 3: exotic weapon proficiency - spiked chain
Level 4: expertise
Level 6: manyshot, improved trip (enlarged trip mod. of +16 at lvl 16; higher as a huge creature when morphed)
Level 8: Combat reflexes
Level 9: quickdraw
Level 10: mounted combat
Level 12: mounted archery, weapon focus comp. bow
Level 14: weapon specialisation comp. bow
Level 15: Far shot (optional: take also the distance enhancement to shoot really far, beyond the range of long range spells...)
Level 16: Improved Critical
ITEMS
+6 equivalent comp. longbow (the one we discussed, without fire enhancement - that can be provided by a party wizard)
3x50 each bane arrows (constructs, dragons, evil outsiders)
+6 STR belt
+6 DEX gloves
+4 CON amulet
+5 resistance cloak
+5 mithral breastplate
+5 mithral buckler
Bracers of archery
boots of speed
2 figurines of wondrous power- bronze griffon
+1 spiked chain, ghost touch
ring of freedom of movement
ring of spell storing (obscuring mist, enlarge and protection from evil, or as filled by fellow pcs)
rod of extend, minor (for greater magic weapon buffs)
The items are probably above 260,000 (too lazy to look up and add up), but the cleric can cast freedom of movement on the fighter (making the ring not necessary), and the cloak/armour/shield can also be of lower enhancement, one griffon statue is enough, there may less bane arrows needed etc.
Note also that a single mind blank buff will protect the fighter from most will-based spells.

drevil
2009-02-10, 02:08 PM
Greetings!

Thanks for a nice build! Impressive :)

Before level 7: Fighter is better than the Cleric in fighting. Cleric is “only” a cleric before level 7.
But as we reach higher levels, the gap shrinks.
And I would say that the Cleric is better than the Fighter in Fighting after lvl 16.
After 16, he is both a Cleric AND a Fighter :)

Aasimar is CORE. Level adjustment +1, but he can Polymorph into a Planetar Angel with much better ability scores than the fighter! But if LA +1, the cleric will only be lvl15 and loose an attack compared to lvl16. Bigger difference between lvl15-lvl16 than lvl16-lvl17.

As for the fighter polymorphing, I think it would be practically difficult to roleplay a large Planetar Angel walking into a bar ordering a beer :)

Dispel:
Its very difficult to dispel a Bead-of-Karma-Polymorph. If that happens: rebuff!
A Dispel-equivalent spell is more devastating to a fighter. He could get in serious troubles.
Of course you can counter any spell when I write them down, but when playing DnD, a Fighter is in bigger trouble than the Cleric.

Mounted Archery: Brilliant idea!
Improved trip/spiked chain: Nice combo!
Flyby attack seems nice. Is that CORE?

Fighter has his extra feats. Cleric has his magic. The flexibility granted by magic is far superior to the flexibility granted by the extra feats.

Aasimar Cleric -> Planetar Angel:
Better ability scores. All of them.
Much better AC.
Equal HP. More HP when buffed.
Better Saving throws with Cloak +5
Better attack Bonus (Dex:25)
Better attack damage (Str: 31)
And most of all: he is also a Cleric with all his magic.

All this counts in fighting.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-10, 04:05 PM
Greetings!

Thanks for a nice build! Impressive :)

Thanks :smallsmile:

Before level 7: Fighter is better than the Cleric in fighting. Cleric is “only” a cleric before level 7.
But as we reach higher levels, the gap shrinks.
And I would say that the Cleric is better than the Fighter in Fighting after lvl 16.
After 16, he is both a Cleric AND a Fighter :)

No, he is not. He does not have the kind of combat abilities that feats grant. Feats are highly durable, cannot be dispelled, and are up 24/7.
Meanwhile, after level 16, items get more and more dominant. While the cleric can emulate many of the fighter abilities (say, the BAB), the fighter can do the same trick and emulate much of the decisive magic that the cleric has with the right items (flying, teleporting, true seeing, healing, protection etc.).

Aasimar is CORE. Level adjustment +1, but he can Polymorph into a Planetar Angel with much better ability scores than the fighter! But if LA +1, the cleric will only be lvl15 and loose an attack compared to lvl16. Bigger difference between lvl15-lvl16 than lvl16-lvl17.

As for the fighter polymorphing, I think it would be practically difficult to roleplay a large Planetar Angel walking into a bar ordering a beer :)

Why not two Aasimar brothers fighting evil and asking their patron deity to grant them the planetar forms? They could try to appear differently (like very 7ftish tall humans) with a hat of disguise each and thus still be welcome in bars..;-)

Dispel:
Its very difficult to dispel a Bead-of-Karma-Polymorph. If that happens: rebuff!

It is highly DM-dependent. But since the karma beads are quiet cheap for those levels there is no reason to assume that opponents will not have it and/or other means to raise caster levels. Throw in a medium quicken rod here and there, and bazam: two greater dispels per round will likely remove the polymorph. High level play can be quite lethal. And your number of domain spells per day is only one (so only one rebuff/day).

A Dispel-equivalent spell is more devastating to a fighter. He could get in serious troubles.

Not the fighter I outlined above, since you need to target items to debuff them (individually) and there is at best a 1st-level buff on himself. A morphed planetar cleric with divine power and divine favor? Would be in deep trouble.

Of course you can counter any spell when I write them down, but when playing DnD, a Fighter is in bigger trouble than the Cleric.

The point is that most of the methods I listed are non-spell methods and thus are up 24/7. Unlike a cleric, who has to prepare his spells in advance (like a wizard) without knowing 100% of the challenges.

Mounted Archery: Brilliant idea!
Improved trip/spiked chain: Nice combo!
Flyby attack seems nice. Is that CORE?

Well, thanks! The flyby feat is a monster feat from the Monster Manual and/or the SRD.
The kicker with a mount is that mounted combat allows the rider to protect his mount from enemy attacks with ride checks and can get all kind of boons with free actions (like +4 to AC with soft cover etc.).

Fighter has his extra feats. Cleric has his magic. The flexibility granted by magic is far superior to the flexibility granted by the extra feats.

True, but not in combat. Which is where the fighter excels (hence his name).

Aasimar Cleric -> Planetar Angel:
Better ability scores. All of them.
Much better AC.
Equal HP. More HP when buffed.
Better Saving throws with Cloak +5
Better attack Bonus (Dex:25)
Better attack damage (Str: 31)
And most of all: he is also a Cleric with all his magic.

All this counts in fighting.


You forget one particular thing: one successful dispel or AMF and your archer cleric would be in deep trouble:
- His armour and shield would no longer fit (freezing him on the spot due to their weight and his low STR), making him very easy to hit.
- his bow would be too large to wield, so he could no longer attack with it.
- as I said before, the magic of the cleric is not "his", but his deity's/belief. Magic can also achieve much less in high-level combat than you currently think imo - but that I guess depends on DMs and general playing experience.
Remember also that you can run out high-level spells quite rapidly when there are many encounters. While the fighter uses his feats...and again...and again...and again...

- Giacomo

Draz74
2009-02-10, 05:10 PM
Merciful:
I was wondering about this merciful issue: when is non-lethal damage a bad thing?
Its bad if the enemy manage to escape during the combat.
But are there any monsters immune to non-lethal damage?

Plenty, sadly. Mainly, all Undead and all Constructs.


What other situations is bad when it comes to non-lethal?

If your opponents have healing. If you and your party deal both lethal and nonlethal damage to opponents, it makes their healing twice as effective, because healing heals an equal amount of nonlethal damage for every bit of lethal damage it heals.

So if you do 18 nonlethal damage to a monster, and your party does another 26 lethal damage, and the monster receives 12 hp of healing, he now is left with 6 nonlethal damage and 14 lethal damage. His 12 healing actually made him 24 hp further from dropping unconscious.