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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-05, 02:40 PM
I think everyone here can agree that the Spellplague was not merely an upheaval in how magic was used, but a time of divine upheaval as well. Many gods, most prominently Helm, Mystra and Tyr are dead. Other deities, like Sehanine Moonbow and Talos were revealed to be other gods in disguise (Selune and Gruumsh respectively). And of course there was the uproar in the church of Lathander when the Risen Sun Heresy was finally vindicated, with Lathander becoming Amaunator again.

My question is, how have the mortals of Faerun handled all this divine turmoil. A number of church's deities have died, several have changed dramatically, and the vibe given by the FRPG and FRCG seems to be that somehow the churches have already settled down within the century that followed this turmoil. What happens to an FR church when their deity dies is killed? How does a church handle their deity changing alignment, like Hoar's change from Lawful Neutral to Evil when he started serving Bane, or when their deity is revealed to be someone else, like Talos when he revealed he was really Gruumsh. I can't imagine that the fallout from events like these only took a century to sort themselves out!

vegetalss4
2009-02-05, 03:02 PM
experience?

no seriously they got a lot of very old creatures, and it is not like this is the first time this has happened, so basicly they dealt with it like they did last time.

Vortling
2009-02-05, 03:11 PM
The answer to all your questions is "Poorly, with much nerd rage."

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-05, 10:23 PM
I'm talking about how a church would recover from a blow like that. I like the new deities, don't get me wrong, but I can't help but wonder what happened to some of the churches following that whole cataclysm. Mystra's church in particular, since no one was able to step up to the plate and take her place. Azuth was cast down into the Nine Hells and Asmodeus ate him, Velsharoon fell from the sky and crash-landed in Rashemen I believe, and Savras likely was killed in the collapse of Dweomerheart. That's four deities permanently dead, with all four of their churches patronless. That's a pretty big problem. How would they deal with something like that?!

RTGoodman
2009-02-05, 10:50 PM
Well, for the most part, most common worshipers would simply gravitate to a new deity with a similar portfolio or outlook. Azuth and Mystra's followers (the ones that survive, since most were casters that probably bit the spellplagued bullet) probably moved on to other caster- or knowledge-type deities (Corellon, maybe Oghma), Tyr and Helm's followers probably switched worship to another Lawful martial deity (Torm or maybe Kelemvor for the more cynical ones?), and stuff like that.

Clerics and Paladins might have a harder time, but for at least a while they might still be able to draw on the left-over divine energy from the dead gods. I know there's a 3.x feat out there somewhere about that, but I can't seem to find it.

The followers of gods that just revealed themselves under a new name just need to convert, and shouldn't have that hard of a time. For gods that changed alignment, though, followers would either have to have an about-face and start listening to the god's new ideas, or find a new god. In 4E, mind you, you don't have to match your deities alignment, so problems like Hoar's (LN -> Evil) wouldn't be a problem since the followers would still probably just be Unaligned.


EDIT: Aha! I found the feat for worshiping a dead god. It's called Servant of the Fallen, from Lost Empires of Faerun.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-05, 11:00 PM
Couldn't they have just brought Mystra back to life with their belief though? I mean, look at Bane, the comeback king of Faerun! He was killed, and not only did he come back, but his faithful were right there waiting for him when he got back. I find it hard to believe that the faithful worshipers of Mystra, arcane caster or no, would just shrug their shoulders at the murder of the being they have devoted their entire life to serving and say "Meh, I'll join the other club!"

Starbuck_II
2009-02-05, 11:15 PM
Couldn't they have just brought Mystra back to life with their belief though? I mean, look at Bane, the comeback king of Faerun! He was killed, and not only did he come back, but his faithful were right there waiting for him when he got back. I find it hard to believe that the faithful worshipers of Mystra, arcane caster or no, would just shrug their shoulders at the murder of the being they have devoted their entire life to serving and say "Meh, I'll join the other club!"

But Bane wasn't killed the way Mystras was.

After all, third times the charm (she has died three times or more). This time she is dead. Not just mostly dead.
All you can can do this time to quote Miracle Max is "search her for loose change."

RTGoodman
2009-02-05, 11:18 PM
And either way, it wasn't just that she died, the ENTIRE WEAVE was destroyed too. Arcane magic was TOTALLY ripped apart and changed (at least, from how it had been practiced). If any Mystra worshipers survived all of that, there's not much they really COULD do to bring her back. I mean, the goddess and all she stood for were wiped away.

Talya
2009-02-05, 11:21 PM
But Bane wasn't killed the way Mystras was.

After all, third times the charm (she has died three times or more). This time she is dead. Not just mostly dead.
All you can can do this time to quote Miracle Max is "search her for loose change."

Na. One thing is very clear in FR...the death of a deity is rarely permanent...and even a dead god weilds great power.

Lost Empires of Faerun was a great book for that type of thing.



Anyway, 4e-Realms is NOT the forgotten realms. It bears only a passing resemblance to anything that ever was the realms, and requires retconning and ignoring most of what has ever been written for FR. In short, it's only useful to you if you hate the forgotten realms. If you like the realms, you're better off not using it.

evil-frosty
2009-02-05, 11:26 PM
May ask where all of this is coming from? I knew mystra bit the dust but everything else i had no clue cept the thing with lathander. I just would like to know because Zousha does make a good point those changes are pretty big and peoples minds arent exactly all that strong in some cases. But the people of Faerun have dealt with turmoil before so they should be used to it.

RTGoodman
2009-02-05, 11:34 PM
May ask where all of this is coming from?

Most of it is in the Grand History of the Realms that Wizards put out about a year ago.

Off the top of my head (and I'm no Faerun scholar), the only one I can remember is that Cyric basically tricked Helm and Tyr into fighting over a goddess (Tymora, maybe?), and their Lawfulness prevented either from backing down, so one had to die. It ended up being Helm.

Asbestos
2009-02-05, 11:46 PM
Most of it is in the Grand History of the Realms that Wizards put out about a year ago.

Off the top of my head (and I'm no Faerun scholar), the only one I can remember is that Cyric basically tricked Helm and Tyr into fighting over a goddess (Tymora, maybe?), and their Lawfulness prevented either from backing down, so one had to die. It ended up being Helm.

Apparently even the gods are lawful stupid. Though that whole 'I took an oath, I have to keep it' thing fits for a lot of Norse and Greek gods too.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-05, 11:54 PM
Most of it is in the Grand History of the Realms that Wizards put out about a year ago.

Off the top of my head (and I'm no Faerun scholar), the only one I can remember is that Cyric basically tricked Helm and Tyr into fighting over a goddess (Tymora, maybe?), and their Lawfulness prevented either from backing down, so one had to die. It ended up being Helm.

More concisely, Siamorphe and Tyr broke up, and so Sune proposed Tyr and Tymora start dating. Helm acted as Tymora's chaperone and a go-between for the two. For some reason, Tyr started suspecting that Helm and Tymora were seeing each other behind his back (rumor has it that Cyric was responsible for this suspicion). Tyr challenged Helm to a duel of honor and Helm had no choice but to accept. Tyr killed Helm, Tymora broke up with him, and Ilmater left the Triad.

Some time later, Tyr defended the northern reaches of Faerun from a demonic and incursion and was killed in battle. His longsword, Justicebringer, is stuck into a stone on Mount Celestia, the words "Justice never sleeps" or something like that carved into the stone. Since then, Torm has been promoted to a greater god to fill the position.

Why is it that Cyric always seems to be around or involved when crap like this happens!?:smallmad:

Nightson
2009-02-06, 12:03 AM
Anyway, 4e-Realms is NOT the forgotten realms. It bears only a passing resemblance to anything that ever was the realms, and requires retconning and ignoring most of what has ever been written for FR. In short, it's only useful to you if you hate the forgotten realms. If you like the realms, you're better off not using it.

Nerd Rage ITT

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-06, 12:04 AM
Couldn't they have just brought Mystra back to life with their belief though? I mean, look at Bane, the comeback king of Faerun! He was killed, and not only did he come back, but his faithful were right there waiting for him when he got back. I find it hard to believe that the faithful worshipers of Mystra, arcane caster or no, would just shrug their shoulders at the murder of the being they have devoted their entire life to serving and say "Meh, I'll join the other club!"

You hit on the major plot hole in perma-killing Mystra just by mentioning Bane--he came back because he'd prepared for it by spawning a son, Iyachtu Xvim, long before he died and then reincarnating through Xvim after he'd reclaimed much of daddy's portfolio. Mystra...has seven children! All of whom, plus Elminster and Khelben the big wizzies of the Realms, possess a portion of her divinity that could then be used as a contingency to restore her after death. It wouldn't be the first time.

In order to destroy her for good, you have to destroy the Weave, the very basis of magic--this is what would have happened due to Karsus' Folly but she sacrificed herself to keep the Weave stable, and was reborn through this act. This isn't what happened in the new Realms: she just died.

And in answer to your question, no I don't think people would have recovered after the perma-death of the most powerful deity in the Realms and the two most powerful Good-aligned deities. It would've been an epic disaster, which is pretty much what the new setting is going for: just how many ruined kingdoms are there now?

And Tyr and Helm fighting over Tymora is totally out of character. She'd never let it get that far, Tyr's an old fart, Helm is a cold fish, and... Tymora are you kidding me? At least make it Beshaba, she's way hot yo. :smallwink:

Talya
2009-02-06, 12:09 AM
You hit on the major plot hole in perma-killing Mystra just by mentioning Bane--he came back because he'd prepared for it by spawning a son, Iyachtu Xvim, long before he died and then reincarnating through Xvim after he'd reclaimed much of daddy's portfolio. Mystra...has seven children! All of whom, plus Elminster and Khelben the big wizzies of the Realms, possess a portion of her divinity that could then be used as a contingency to restore her after death. It wouldn't be the first time.



If you're speaking of the seven sisters, I think only Storm has been confirmed to still be alive in 4E. Sylune died many decades earlier, and Qilue was killed in the Lady Penitent series. Dove, Alustriel, Laeral, and The Simbul are unaccounted for.

Khelben also died some time earlier, although Elminster is still there with his peice of Mystra's divinity.

Asbestos
2009-02-06, 12:12 AM
You hit on the major plot hole in perma-killing Mystra just by mentioning Bane--he came back because he'd prepared for it by spawning a son, Iyachtu Xvim, long before he died and then reincarnating through Xvim after he'd reclaimed much of daddy's portfolio. Mystra...has seven children! All of whom, plus Elminster and Khelben the big wizzies of the Realms, possess a portion of her divinity that could then be used as a contingency to restore her after death. It wouldn't be the first time.

In order to destroy her for good, you have to destroy the Weave, the very basis of magic--this is what would have happened due to Karsus' Folly but she sacrificed herself to keep the Weave stable, and was reborn through this act. This isn't what happened in the new Realms: she just died.

And in answer to your question, no I don't think people would have recovered after the perma-death of the most powerful deity in the Realms and the two most powerful Good-aligned deities. It would've been an epic disaster, which is pretty much what the new setting is going for: just how many ruined kingdoms are there now?

And Tyr and Helm fighting over Tymora is totally out of character. She'd never let it get that far, Tyr's an old fart, Helm is a cold fish, and... Tymora are you kidding me? At least make it Beshaba, she's way hot yo. :smallwink:

Didn't all of her Mary Sue kids die too?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-06, 12:30 AM
If you're speaking of the seven sisters, I think only Storm has been confirmed to still be alive in 4E. Sylune died many decades earlier, and Qilue was killed in the Lady Penitent series. Dove, Alustriel, Laeral, and The Simbul are unaccounted for.

Khelben also died some time earlier, although Elminster is still there with his peice of Mystra's divinity.

I thought the Simbul was hiding out with Elminster who is now afraid to use magic at all because he might go totally bonkers or something.

What about her church though? Surely they'd all be there still immediately after her death. Wouldn't their collective belief at least keep her alive? Then the Spellplague wouldn't have happened, right?

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-06, 12:50 AM
If you're speaking of the seven sisters, I think only Storm has been confirmed to still be alive in 4E. Sylune died many decades earlier, and Qilue was killed in the Lady Penitent series. Dove, Alustriel, Laeral, and The Simbul are unaccounted for.

Khelben also died some time earlier, although Elminster is still there with his peice of Mystra's divinity.

Right, I forgot about Qilue's death, though I thought Sylune was still active despite being a ghost? And even though Khelben died--bah, the one Chosen I liked, the only one who actually had his head on straight and he had to go and die--I'm pretty sure he's still around through the Blackstaff.

My point though was that's an awful lot of powerful folks you'd have to go through before Mystra would be gone forever.

(Heh, this is amusing to me that I'd be saying this since my old 2e group many years ago tried to do exactly this. We didn't get far.)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-06, 03:40 PM
It's been suggested that like-minded churches would take in the newly-orphaned worshipers. How would they reconcile the different dogmas?

RTGoodman
2009-02-06, 03:48 PM
It's been suggested that like-minded churches would take in the newly-orphaned worshipers. How would they reconcile the different dogmas?

The same way real-world religions do - syncretism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism). I don't want to get into real-world examples since they violate forum rules, but you can always say stuff like, "Hey, your holiday happens around this time? We have one of those, too! They must be the same thing, but with different names!"

That takes care of the day-to-day type stuff. As for the big stuff, the dead god's followers are going to KNOW their god's dead, probably, so if they want to follow a god (and in the Realms, they almost certainly do because of the problems not following a god causes) they're probably willing to make some changes to fit in elsewhere. And the new churches might be willing to make changes, too, in order to bring more sheep into the flock, so to speak. Things might not be EXACT, but they'll be good enough for most people.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-06, 05:03 PM
But, in theory, couldn't all the faithful of a dead deity pray really, really hard to try and bring their deity back? Deities are given life and power because of belief, so it stands to reason that enough people pray to them, they'll come back to life.

RTGoodman
2009-02-06, 05:15 PM
I'm not sure - I don't know exactly how in the Realms godhood is developed (i.e. is worship by mortals the only thing needed to make something a god or to create a god or whatever).

I personally would say that worship by many can make a god STRONGER, but it's not the only factor; there still has to be some "spark of divinity" for the worship to "attach" itself to. A god could fade into obscurity, a mere vestige of its former glory, when it loses all of its followers since it still has that shard of the divine, but prayer isn't enough to bring back a god that loses that (like Mystra). That's why we see some gods come back multiple times - they "died," but they never COMPLETELY ceased to be (Mystra had the Weave that sorta granted her divinity, etc.) and worship made them strong again. On the other hand, some lost that and thus they DID cease to be entirely.

Of course, I could be wrong in regards to FR cosmology - I just don't know much about it.

AslanCross
2009-02-06, 08:52 PM
But, in theory, couldn't all the faithful of a dead deity pray really, really hard to try and bring their deity back? Deities are given life and power because of belief, so it stands to reason that enough people pray to them, they'll come back to life.

I think it's still subject to Ao's approval. He did raise and promote Torm when he killed Bane during the Time of Troubles.

Then again, there are also a bunch of dead deities who never came back. Myrkul is gone for good; Bhaal tried to come back but failed (by canon, the hero of the BG series was Abdel, and he didn't take the portfolio as far as I can tell. It's somewhere in Grand History of the Realms). There's also Leira, but given her portfolio nobody knows if she's really dead or not. IIRC, her church still exists, and they claim she will come back, but she hasn't.
Vhaeraun was killed by Eilistraee, and Eilistraee was killed by the Lady Penitent along with Qilue.
There were also all the lesser deities whom Shar ate during the Time of Troubles, as well as Gilgeam, whom Tiamat sat on.

For the most part, I really don't think there's any reason why they couldn't come back story-wise, and the Spellplague was just a rather inelegant and heavy-handed approach to downsizing the bloated pantheon.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-07, 02:31 PM
No arguments there, AslanCross, but what I'm trying to figure out is how the mortals would respond to all of it. It's part of what frustrates me so much about 4e today. Religion is an integral part of almost every character I make, and virtually all 4e books have been irritatingly vague on that topic. They provide information about who the gods are and a general piece about what they're for, but that's it. No information about which gods are friends, which ones are servants and which ones are enemies. No information about their holy texts. No information about how their churches are structured, or where their centers of mortal worship are. No explanation as to what rites they have. How is an uncreative philistine like myself supposed to roleplay a religious character properly when 4e seems to be taking a decidedly secular direction?!

Starbuck_II
2009-02-07, 02:38 PM
Didn't all of her Mary Sue kids die too?

No Dritzzt Do Urden survived (one of the few), but most did die.

hamishspence
2009-02-07, 02:51 PM
The Simbal is confirmed in FRCS to be alive. Drizzt is Not one of the Children of Mystra (and is alive in the post-spellplague snippets in The Orc King novel)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-07, 09:34 PM
No arguments there, AslanCross, but what I'm trying to figure out is how the mortals would respond to all of it. It's part of what frustrates me so much about 4e today. Religion is an integral part of almost every character I make, and virtually all 4e books have been irritatingly vague on that topic. They provide information about who the gods are and a general piece about what they're for, but that's it. No information about which gods are friends, which ones are servants and which ones are enemies. No information about their holy texts. No information about how their churches are structured, or where their centers of mortal worship are. No explanation as to what rites they have. How is an uncreative philistine like myself supposed to roleplay a religious character properly when 4e seems to be taking a decidedly secular direction?!

I'm still looking for answers to these questions.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-08, 04:25 PM
So NO-ONE has any definitive answers?!:smallfurious:

AslanCross
2009-02-08, 05:34 PM
Well, I'm pretty sure the deities and their churches had a lot of alliances even when they were all still around. The Spellplague and the chaos surrounding it did cause some upheavals, as has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure they'd simply go to their friends or the closest-minded deity.

I'm not even really sure how they'd realize that their god is dead all of a sudden. "Oh no, my spells don't work?" Do they see omens? Or do they automatically see the death of their deity (see: Iyachtu Xvim)? Or do they just feel something's missing? Or maybe they have varying experiences.

I think the last one is the most sensible, and it depends on the person whether they seek an allied church or just give in to despair.

GolemsVoice
2009-02-08, 06:00 PM
Given that Elminster is still alive, and given that he carries a spark of Mystra's divinity, and given his attitude to the fairer sex, I think Mystra's "seed" is well preserved, and will continue to live on in the Realms. Though I never concerned myself with the 4e Realms.

Talya
2009-02-08, 06:30 PM
Yes. At least three of Mystra's chosen are still alive - Elminster, The Simbul, and Storm Silverhand. Alustriel Silverhand, Dove Falconhand, and Laeral Silverhand are unaccounted for (Alustriel's city, Silverymoon, and the Silver Marches region, is completely unmentioned that I can see.)

That's a huge well of Mystra's divine spark still in the mortal realm.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-08, 09:03 PM
So Mystra has the potential to return. Do you think Wizards will allow it?

JonestheSpy
2009-02-08, 09:39 PM
So Mystra has the potential to return. Do you think Wizards will allow it?

WotC has absolutely no authority over your campaign, do they?

Seriously, this whole thing sounds more like X-Men style soap opera than religious pantheons. I mean, I can see one big Ragnarok-style shake up, which they did for Faerun awhile back, but now another round? Reminds of the big comic book "Nothing will ever be the same!" crossover event thingies that Marvel and DC do all the time nowadays. And that's not a compliment.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-08, 10:06 PM
I don't have a campaign. I just play Living Forgotten Realms with the local RPGA group, and that doesn't even give roleplaying the time of day. It's all sped-up hack n' slash so we can finish playing before the store hosting us closes. It's very unsatisfying.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-08, 10:37 PM
I don't have a campaign. I just play Living Forgotten Realms with the local RPGA group, and that doesn't even give roleplaying the time of day. It's all sped-up hack n' slash so we can finish playing before the store hosting us closes. It's very unsatisfying.

At least you're playing; I haven't played any D&D in a year (okay, Afro's playtest fights but that isn't a real game).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-09, 11:17 AM
I'm getting much more mileage out of a custom 3.5 campaign though. I can't seem to find any groups interested in a more laid-back roleplaying-style 4e FR game that I can play with.:smallfrown:

Draz74
2009-02-09, 11:57 AM
(Alustriel's city, Silverymoon, and the Silver Marches region, is completely unmentioned that I can see.)

I think they're waiting to reveal this in Salvatore's next book ...

bosssmiley
2009-02-09, 02:20 PM
So NO-ONE has any definitive answers?!:smallfurious:

Yes. One person does. Your DM. Anything else is just fanwank. :smallamused:

re: The Simbul. I thought FRCS 4E hinted that her death was what had made Elminster into the gloomy, burned-out old ruin he is now. Or was that the death of Mystra? :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2009-02-09, 02:38 PM
Probably Mystra's death that depressed him. Page 88 FRCS: Aglarond "In truth, the powerful mage did survive the conflagration and now resides in the Dalelands."

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-09, 04:02 PM
Yes. One person does. Your DM. Anything else is just fanwank. :smallamused:

And for those of us who don't have a DM?

Mobey_Wee
2009-02-09, 05:34 PM
Then start DM'ing so you can make your players bring her back.

I'm a lot like you, I need to know all the little details of who said what about who, but the X-Men soap comment was pretty accurate. Mystra is the Jean Grey of FR. The next Mystra is going to be the daughter of the clone of Mystra's secret evil twin sister or something. Seriously, give it enough time.

As far as how the people reacted, there is no definitive answer. In reality (as much sense as that makes), yes the death of the gods would cause a lot of chaos and panic, but it's a game, WotC wanted to change things, but they don't want to figure out how every little change would affect every person in every home in Toril. So I'm afraid you're looking for answers that aren't there. I'm DM'ing 4E FR, but there are plenty of things from the books I've chosen to ignore.

And speaking of looking for answers that aren't there, anyone know what happened to Denier? Did he get gobbled up too?

RTGoodman
2009-02-09, 06:02 PM
And speaking of looking for answers that aren't there, anyone know what happened to Denier? Did he get gobbled up too?

I couldn't find a single thing about him post-Spellplague during about 20 minutes worth of searching, so I'm guessing he's just sort of disappeared (or, at least, his fate hasn't been mentioned yet). If I HAD to come up with something, I'd say he might have become an Exarch of Oghma or something like that. The same thing happened to Milil, another similar deity, so I don't think it'd be out of the question.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-09, 07:32 PM
Eh, I'm not so concerned with Mystra. What I wanna do is play a paladin who may or may not be deluded into thinking that he's Helm reborn and eventually taking the Demigod ED and becoming "the new Helm."

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-10, 12:07 AM
Eh, I'm not so concerned with Mystra. What I wanna do is play a paladin who may or may not be deluded into thinking that he's Helm reborn and eventually taking the Demigod ED and becoming "the new Helm."

That would be awesome, I highly support this as Helm has long been one of the most underappreciated, underestimated gods in the setting: I mostly blame the writers of the Avatar and Maztica books, and BG2 (I didn't much like Anomen) and NWN to a lesser extent. The one suggestion I can make would be play him pragmatically rather than idealistically because Helm was definitely not Good and this led to some pretty severe divisions between his and Torm's clergy over their methods--though they had the same basic goals in mind (and the two deities themselves got along very well).

As for your question about the lack of concrete information in the 4e FR covering all this stuff, I'm sure you can get some ideas over at the Candlekeep.com forums, but largely this seems to be part of the design philosophy of the new edition--to make it up yourself with your GM and group. Which is another reason why FR doesn't really work as a setting now because it was always about the little details of life in Faerun.


I'm a lot like you, I need to know all the little details of who said what about who, but the X-Men soap comment was pretty accurate. Mystra is the Jean Grey of FR. The next Mystra is going to be the daughter of the clone of Mystra's secret evil twin sister or something. Seriously, give it enough time.

Hah. Yeah this is true, but Phoenix was pretty sweet (re: not the movie version) and so was Mystra when she pulled her own version of that during Karsus' Folly, one of the more memorable events in the setting I have to say.

Dixieboy
2009-02-10, 12:33 AM
st00pid question(s) here

But if Asmodeous absorbed a deity of magic (In this case spellcasters)
Hasn't he taken over the portfolio?

Which means that the spellcasters patron deity from now on is an archdevil :smallmad:

The only deity that represents magic in any way, is Asmodeous :smalleek:

Am i the only one who see the implications of that?

herrhauptmann
2009-02-10, 12:44 AM
Regarding how people deal with the loss of their church:
And PLEASE no flame wars regarding how faith works in the real world.

In real life, adversity either strengthens or shatters your faith. This of course, is in a world where everything is on faith, there's no revolving door to heaven, the gods do not walk the world in 90ft avatars. Etc.

In D&D, where priests regularly perform what would be considered miracles in the real world, it's a bit different. During the Spellplague (that's adversity if I ever saw it!), everything went to crap, and for the people who turned to the priests of the gods for help, suddenly discovered that some of the priests were completely helpless.
There would likely have even been some priests who lost their faith (Look at Adon from the forgotten realms novels. Faith in Sune shattered when he got a scar, and again in Mystra, though that was due to a god's curse), and if your local pastor is suddenly screaming and crying 'God is dead!' it'd be an especially hardheaded individual who can keep his faith through all that.

So people who worshipped say Kelemvor were still able to turn to the priests. But people who worshipped Mystra and others were left out in the cold. By the time the dust had settled, I think too many people had stopped praying to Mystra and others for there to be enough faith to bring her back. And that's ignoring the question of whether there was a divine spark for it coalesce around in the first place.

*********************************
While Elminster is indeed quite the pimp for an octacentarian (800 years old), I don't think his children would count as partly divine just because he was a chosen of a god. Especially now that his god is dead. I think he himself would have to have some divine rank first, before we can start bestowing divinity on his kids.

I think all the 7 sisters (except Simbul) are now dead. Sylune long dead, Qilue in the Lady Penitent novels, and the others died in the misnamed "Year of seven sisters"

Don't forget that Mask Was absorbed back into Shar in the year the shadovar annexed sembia. Though given the ending of the book Shadowrealm, I wouldn't be surprised if Mask arranged for himself to come back, either through the son his first chosen Erevis Cale, or through his second chosen Drasek Riven. Both of whom gained divinity at the same time as Rivalen Tanthul of Shade.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 01:41 AM
Regarding how people deal with the loss of their church:
And PLEASE no flame wars regarding how faith works in the real world.

In real life, adversity either strengthens or shatters your faith. This of course, is in a world where everything is on faith, there's no revolving door to heaven, the gods do not walk the world in 90ft avatars. Etc.

In D&D, where priests regularly perform what would be considered miracles in the real world, it's a bit different. During the Spellplague (that's adversity if I ever saw it!), everything went to crap, and for the people who turned to the priests of the gods for help, suddenly discovered that some of the priests were completely helpless.
There would likely have even been some priests who lost their faith (Look at Adon from the forgotten realms novels. Faith in Sune shattered when he got a scar, and again in Mystra, though that was due to a god's curse), and if your local pastor is suddenly screaming and crying 'God is dead!' it'd be an especially hardheaded individual who can keep his faith through all that.

So people who worshipped say Kelemvor were still able to turn to the priests. But people who worshipped Mystra and others were left out in the cold. By the time the dust had settled, I think too many people had stopped praying to Mystra and others for there to be enough faith to bring her back. And that's ignoring the question of whether there was a divine spark for it coalesce around in the first place.

*********************************
While Elminster is indeed quite the pimp for an octacentarian (800 years old), I don't think his children would count as partly divine just because he was a chosen of a god. Especially now that his god is dead. I think he himself would have to have some divine rank first, before we can start bestowing divinity on his kids.

I think all the 7 sisters (except Simbul) are now dead. Sylune long dead, Qilue in the Lady Penitent novels, and the others died in the misnamed "Year of seven sisters"

Don't forget that Mask Was absorbed back into Shar in the year the shadovar annexed sembia. Though given the ending of the book Shadowrealm, I wouldn't be surprised if Mask arranged for himself to come back, either through the son his first chosen Erevis Cale, or through his second chosen Drasek Riven. Both of whom gained divinity at the same time as Rivalen Tanthul of Shade.

So THAT'S what happened to Mask! I was wondering why he wasn't even mentioned in the FRCG.

So what you're saying is that faith is different in Faerun because the gods produce tangible effects on a daily basis. There isn't any of the kind of "belief in the invisible" that is faith here in the real world. And when those tangible effects stopped coming, the regular worshipers jumped ship, so there wasn't enough faith from just the clerics to give the deity life, so the dead god stayed dead. Is that the gist?

Personally, I wonder if maybe Elminster'll become the new god of magic in the future. He already carries part of Mystra's essence within him, and he's easily the most famous person on all of Faerun. If that fame turned to actual worship? He'd get elevated to Greater God in seconds! Plus it'd get him out of the way so a new crop of heroes could take over. I mean, by now DRIZZT is considered part of the "old guard" of Faerunian heroes, where he was previously "the new kid."

And this Adon fellow lost his faith in Sune because HE GOT A SCAR? Wow! If Sune's faithful are that vain, then how the heck did SHE survive the Time of Troubles, let alone the Spellplague!?

Dixieboy
2009-02-10, 01:45 AM
So THAT'S what happened to Mask! I was wondering why he wasn't even mentioned in the FRCG.
That and the fact that he is a very minor god, most of his portfilio being taken over by cyric.
I doubt the god of thieves would be considered a greater god, and the only "minor" god to be mentioned was umberlee



And this Adon fellow lost his faith in Sune because HE GOT A SCAR? Wow! If Sune's faithful are that vain, then how the heck did SHE survive the Time of Troubles, let alone the Spellplague!?
She probably didn't go around and tried to kill stuff, she is a deity of love, even her paladins don't really fight a whole lot being more interested in "Bardly pursuits" :smallredface:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 01:53 AM
*scratches head*

I thought that was Sharess? :smallconfused:

Dixieboy
2009-02-10, 01:56 AM
Sharess is the goddess of hedonism, prostitutes (From what i understand) and cats

I do not consider that love :smallmad:

Tam_OConnor
2009-02-10, 02:38 AM
My main wonder is this: why did they bring back Amauntaur? (Spelling? I do the floor trap by reflex now...) Was it just to cater to all of us BG2 old guard? Why not go all the way and bring in Pelor?

Adon...wow, I'd forgotten about him. Judging from his name (Adon :: Adonis), I'd say that he was a particularly bad case of narcissism.

The way I keep Sune and Sharess straight:
Sune: redhead, concerned with love and beauty (physical or otherwise). Has an awesome prestige class that turns you into a fey.

Sharess: brunette, concerned with naughty bits and kitties. Has a silly prestige class where the original artwork has a dancing dwarf. And you turn into a cat.

Concerning Mystra: I really doubt it'll stick. About the same chances that Jean Grey stays dead, as an earlier poster put it.

By extension of Deneir: what happened to Cadderly? Not that I actually /care/, but I'm curious. And going off of that, what happened to all the other Chosen? Auril's down south...actually, she's the only one I can think of that y'all haven't mentioned yet.

*Gripes that they killed all the cool deities like Auril, Malar, Beshaba (Tymora got all the love, Beshaba got all the looks!), etc, etc.*

AslanCross
2009-02-10, 04:54 AM
Amaunator was brought back, story-wise, because the Risen Sun Heresy regarding Lathander was apparently true.

I actually don't think the Risen Sun heresy goes well with the events of Baldur's Gate 2---Amaunator's avatar was languishing in the depths of the sewer beneath Athkatla because everyone, even the guardians who lived with him in that temple, had forgotten who he was (and hated him).

The Risen Sun Heresy, as far as I can tell, simply tells us that Lathander is actually Amaunator, or would turn into Amaunator.

Halaster
2009-02-10, 06:27 AM
This whole "living gods shagging, betraying and killing one another" was always what bothers me most about playing in the realms. You see, I'm a nonbeliever myself, but ours is a world where god doesn't get in your face all the time, so whether you believe is up to you. Now the realms force your character to believe, because, well, seeing is believing, and you can see the gods all the time, they turn the world upside down every other generation.
So basically you're living in a divine soap opera, but apparently the authors of FR expect you to play your character like an ordinary person adhering to a personal faith. Doesn't work for me. It's alright with the Greek pantheon, where this is all just myth, an entertaining and ideally morally enlightening yarn spun by mortals to make sense of the world they live in. But if this had ever become fact, I bet the Greeks would have freaked out.
So I prefer to keep the gods out of my FR campaigns as much as I can. I treat them as distant entities that never walk around the mortal world, don't interact in any real sense with the mortals or each other. All the tales of love, betrayal and murder are just that: tales, ways of mortals to come to terms with what ultimately remains unfathomable. So magic fouls up. Something must have happened to Mystra, let's invent an intelligible version of that cosmic event. Similarly, Helm's power vanishes from this world, so probably he died, let's invent a story about how our gods killed each other.

Mortals define their gods, and they define them in ways they can understand. Assuming it actually happens leads only to confusion and madness.

So, to make a long story short, in my world, people don't deal with their gods dying. Saying their gods have died is already dealing with a cosmic reality that the mind boggles to think about.

CU,
Halaster

Talya
2009-02-10, 10:33 AM
This whole "living gods shagging, betraying and killing one another" was always what bothers me most about playing in the realms.

Go read some polytheistic mythology from Gaelic, Greek, Norse, Roman, Sumerian legend. The Realms is pretty tame compared to some of the stuff those gods did in legend. Yes, they are myth, but the peoples who believed in them thought they were as real...just as real as the faerunians believe their gods to be.

And playing a high priestess of Sune and Sharess is rather fun. Your character ends up living much like their gods do.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 12:58 PM
Amaunator was brought back, story-wise, because the Risen Sun Heresy regarding Lathander was apparently true.

I actually don't think the Risen Sun heresy goes well with the events of Baldur's Gate 2---Amaunator's avatar was languishing in the depths of the sewer beneath Athkatla because everyone, even the guardians who lived with him in that temple, had forgotten who he was (and hated him).

The Risen Sun Heresy, as far as I can tell, simply tells us that Lathander is actually Amaunator, or would turn into Amaunator.

More specifically, the church of Lathander acknowledges that Lathander is a reincarnation of Amaunator. The Risen Sun Heresy believes that he will change back into Amaunator and will do so soon. Which he did. And now Faerun has two suns. Shouldn't it be a desert planet now? [/obligatory Star Wars reference]

Tam_OConnor
2009-02-10, 02:45 PM
I'm just wondering where the Risen Sun heresy came from, since I'd seen nothing about it until 4th edition, not even under Lathander's entry in Faiths and Pantheons. Maybe there was something in Lost Empires of Faerun? I'm wondering meta-storywise.

hamishspence
2009-02-10, 03:06 PM
Power of Faerun covers Faerun heresies in general, and Risen Sun in particular, outlining a campaign hook where the main NPC researches the epic spell Amaunator's eternal sun and puts a permanent sunlike effect over the Western Heartlands.

Its referred to in 4th ed- the glow isn't sun-bright, but it still there over the city.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 04:42 PM
So what would be the logical response for the Lathander church when that miracle happens? They seem to have accepted, but from what I can tell, when there's a big heresy like that in a church, neither side wants to admit they were wrong. I'd imagine the churches of Amaunator and Lathander undergoing a split, like the Protestants split from the Catholic Church.

Asbestos
2009-02-10, 04:59 PM
*Gripes that they killed all the cool deities like Auril, Malar, Beshaba (Tymora got all the love, Beshaba got all the looks!), etc, etc.*

Uh... Auril, Malar, and Umberlee are all still around, they just now have Silvanus as their superior rather than Talos (because Talos turned out to be Gruumsh and was banished from Fury's Heart)

I think Auril actually gained some power and has added wind and storms to her portfolio. Akadi is pissed.

edit: I think someone at WotC reaaaly loves winter since there was a whole article on Auril's domain, a piece on an Archfey of winter, and an epic destiny for fey types that allows them to become an Archfey of winter.

hamishspence
2009-02-10, 05:02 PM
Having done some cross-referencing, something odd. The Land of Two Suns is near Baldur's Gate, but the Eternal Sun spell was cast in Elversult over on the Dragon Coat. Maybe the spell moved during the Spellplague. Also, despite the spell, the state religion is Torm.

in Grand History of the Realms, it was cast Midsummer 1374. Result- thousands turning up at the Lathlanderite temples asking to convert to Amaunator (and some travelling to Elversult to the official Temple of Amaunator.) While intially (before the spell), they were excommunicating the guy, after the spell- they decide to back off a bit, wait and see how it turns out.

Its not clear in FRCS when Lathlander finally was reborn as Amaunator, and renamed officially. (But given that Grand history says Lathlander helped bind Cyric in the Year of Blue Fire, it must have been post-Spellplague)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 05:12 PM
What is Cyric's DEAL anyway?! He seems to exist solely to screw over Faerun at every opportunity. He killed Mystra, supposedly convinced Tyr to fight Helm and supposedly dealt the death blow to Tyr. And from what I've read about him before that, he's caused nothing but trouble. Why have the Gods put up with him all this time?!

hamishspence
2009-02-10, 05:22 PM
the first time they tried to take away his powers, they ended up agreeing (by only 1 vote deciding) that causing strife was his job- Faerun is always going to have an evil god of strife and Cyric has not failed to do his job so can't be kicked out of it.

When he killed Mystra though- he was imprisoned.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 05:36 PM
He's killed gods before. Why was Mystra's death considered overstepping his bounds?

hamishspence
2009-02-10, 05:48 PM
because it caused the planes to go into massive chaos- Mystra is a Load Bearing Deity :smallbiggrin:- taking her out put all the deities at some risk.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 05:58 PM
Did he pull the "I'm only doing my job" card?

And they only imprisoned him for it? That's weak. They should have imprisoned him and played this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3JbM9TRaRI) constantly in his prison. That is a fitting punishment.

Saintjebus
2009-02-10, 06:00 PM
By extension of Deneir: what happened to Cadderly? Not that I actually /care/, but I'm curious.


Cadderly was not mentioned in the FRCS, but Spirit Soaring was. It's now an abandoned, haunted cathedral(read: adventure hook).

Sebastian
2009-02-10, 07:05 PM
May ask where all of this is coming from?

Some Game designer's a**, mostly. :smallwink:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 07:29 PM
Surely they didn't make all their decisions on the spur of the moment. They had to have some plan in mind when they decided what would happen to the Realms.

PersonofJid
2009-02-10, 08:27 PM
What is Cyric's DEAL anyway?! He seems to exist solely to screw over Faerun at every opportunity. He killed Mystra, supposedly convinced Tyr to fight Helm and supposedly dealt the death blow to Tyr. And from what I've read about him before that, he's caused nothing but trouble. Why have the Gods put up with him all this time?!

My guess, is that the only reason Cyric got away with killing deities before is because it was done during the Time of Troubles, and he did take the intrigue portfolio from Mask, so manipulating Tyr and Helm into killing each other seems right up his alley. I don't seem to remember him commiting deicide since. (Spellplague not included)

JonestheSpy
2009-02-10, 08:33 PM
Surely they didn't make all their decisions on the spur of the moment. They had to have some plan in mind when they decided what would happen to the Realms.


Change that too "Pulled out a department meeting's collective a**," then.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-10, 09:30 PM
What is Cyric's DEAL anyway?! He seems to exist solely to screw over Faerun at every opportunity. He killed Mystra, supposedly convinced Tyr to fight Helm and supposedly dealt the death blow to Tyr. And from what I've read about him before that, he's caused nothing but trouble. Why have the Gods put up with him all this time?!

But he throws a hell of a party for celebrations :smallbiggrin:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 09:45 PM
:smallconfused: Buh?

charl
2009-02-10, 09:51 PM
Did he pull the "I'm only doing my job" card?

And they only imprisoned him for it? That's weak. They should have imprisoned him and played this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3JbM9TRaRI) constantly in his prison. That is a fitting punishment.

Dansa med oss
Klappa era händer
Gör som vi gör
Ta några steg åt vänster
Lyssna och lär
Missa inte chansen
Nu är vi här med Caramelldansen


Classic! :smallbiggrin: It's probably better when you understand the stupidity of the lyrics.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 09:56 PM
Classic? That song is so saccharine it'd cause Cyric to die of diabetes. Which is why I reccomended it be played constantly in his prison.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-02-10, 11:25 PM
But, in theory, couldn't all the faithful of a dead deity pray really, really hard to try and bring their deity back? Deities are given life and power because of belief, so it stands to reason that enough people pray to them, they'll come back to life.
In theory, a buffalo could band together with its herd and trample every lion that looks at the herd sideways, but it doesn't happen very often. Stuff like this requires organization...and gee, what was Mystra's alignment? CG? NG? CN?

TS

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-10, 11:49 PM
NG, if memory serves. I didn't get into FR back in the 3.5 days.

Asbestos
2009-02-11, 12:07 AM
NG, if memory serves. I didn't get into FR back in the 3.5 days.

Wait... when did you get into it?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 12:09 AM
About a year or two ago, when I bought Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2.

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-11, 12:19 AM
In theory, a buffalo could band together with its herd and trample every lion that looks at the herd sideways, but it doesn't happen very often. Stuff like this requires organization...and gee, what was Mystra's alignment? CG? NG? CN?

TS

She was NG in 2nd Edition and 3.X, but you could use LN as the base alignment for her as well if the character joined her church prior to the Time of Troubles, when the previous Mystra was LN. So there were still some Lawful holdouts presumably when everything went to the Nine Hells.

Original Mystryl from before the Fall of Netheril was CN however, and by all accounts was rather irresponsible with what she allowed magic-users to do.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 12:36 AM
So Mystra's one of the few gods who has been flexible enough to change as time passed and things changed.

Why the hell did she try to get past Helm to speak with Ao though?! According to what I've read, Helm offered to bring her information to Ao, and Helm's pretty honest as far as I can tell. And when she refused that, why'd she think she could go toe to toe with him after she'd lost her divinity and he hadn't? That was suicide!

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 11:07 AM
The more I learn about Faerun's deities, the more I wonder why the hell Ao puts up with their little soap operas.

Morty
2009-02-11, 11:11 AM
The more I learn about Faerun's deities, the more I wonder why the hell Ao puts up with their little soap operas.

Answer: he's bored.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 11:22 AM
But...soap operas? Why not watch a real opera? I bought a ticket to go see my university's production of Hansel and Gretel next Saturday, and I'm going to enjoy that a heck of a lot more than, say, "The Young and the Restless."

(That's the only soap opera I'm really familiar with. My grandma used to watch it all the time, rest her soul.)

Asbestos
2009-02-11, 05:20 PM
But...soap operas? Why not watch a real opera? I bought a ticket to go see my university's production of Hansel and Gretel next Saturday, and I'm going to enjoy that a heck of a lot more than, say, "The Young and the Restless."

(That's the only soap opera I'm really familiar with. My grandma used to watch it all the time, rest her soul.)

Yes, but what if all the characters on "The Young and the Restless" wielded world shattering power?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 05:31 PM
Still doesn't make it any less pretentious and irritating.

charl
2009-02-11, 05:41 PM
I would watch a TV show about deities in a fantasy world fighting out their conflicts with epic powers, sometimes threatening the universe itself. It wouldn't really be a soap opera, more like some type of action-fantasy-sci-fi deal. It would probably be pretty awesome.

Mobey_Wee
2009-02-11, 05:59 PM
When everyone talks about the "old guard," who are they referring to? Elminster obviously.

I've read all the Salvatore stuff and loved it. Tried reading Some Elminster and I couldn't do it. I don't know what it was, but I couldn't get 5 chapters in.
I've recently picked up some Richard Baker books, which I really think I am going to enjoy, though I've only read excerpts from his stuff so far.

But anyway, who are some of the other heroes? Most of my FR knowledge comes from the source books, but I would like to read some of the other novels. Any recommended reading would be appreciated.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 06:03 PM
On the topic of a divine show, cool powers don't excuse poor character behavior.

Again, why the hell did Mystra try to get past Helm to speak with Ao?! According to what I've read, Helm offered to bring her information to Ao, and Helm's pretty honest as far as I can tell. And when she refused that, why'd she think she could go toe to toe with him after she'd lost her divinity and he hadn't? That was suicide!

Any sane viewer would cringe at a dumb decision like that. It's almost as bad as Star Wars!

charl
2009-02-11, 06:09 PM
On the topic of a divine show, cool powers don't excuse poor character behavior.

Again, why the hell did Mystra try to get past Helm to speak with Ao?! According to what I've read, Helm offered to bring her information to Ao, and Helm's pretty honest as far as I can tell. And when she refused that, why'd she think she could go toe to toe with him after she'd lost her divinity and he hadn't? That was suicide!

Any sane viewer would cringe at a dumb decision like that. It's almost as bad as Star Wars!

Basically it would be like watching Heroes then. Not too bad, it could be much worse.

And don't you dare badmouth Star Wars, unless you mean the recent pre-trilogy. That you can badmouth as much as you want.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-11, 06:34 PM
But...soap operas? Why not watch a real opera? I bought a ticket to go see my university's production of Hansel and Gretel next Saturday, and I'm going to enjoy that a heck of a lot more than, say, "The Young and the Restless."

(That's the only soap opera I'm really familiar with. My grandma used to watch it all the time, rest her soul.)


A Closer Soap Opera was "Passions"
You have a girl with that was wholesome, but lost her mom (one time even a angel protected her) named Charity. She was sorta Favored Soul (if she hada class in D&D)
And evil Witch Tabitha and her Familiar (looks like a little boy currently) Timmy.
There was other stuff going on, but it was pretty good.

Then it got stupid later on when some characters had an affair. Why did Ethan do with Teresa!
Anyway, that was probably a closer soap Opera.

mostlyharmful
2009-02-11, 06:39 PM
Basically it would be like watching Heroes then. Not too bad, it could be much worse.

And don't you dare badmouth Star Wars, unless you mean the recent pre-trilogy. That you can badmouth as much as you want.

What pre-trilogy? You mean they've made new starwars? Great, can I get a link?:smallannoyed:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 06:42 PM
Basically it would be like watching Heroes then. Not too bad, it could be much worse.

And don't you dare badmouth Star Wars, unless you mean the recent pre-trilogy. That you can badmouth as much as you want.

The prequels are exactly what I was referring to.

Why did Mystra try to get past Helm?! Why was her information so important that she couldn't have Helm relay it for her?!

charl
2009-02-11, 06:50 PM
What pre-trilogy? You mean they've made new starwars? Great, can I get a link?:smallannoyed:

How can you have missed episodes 1 through 3? They suck but they did get a lot of publicity. Well, they are watchable, but they don't measure up to the original movies (eps 4 through 6). That's what I meant with pre-trilogy. Frack, I don't even know if I'd consider the recent films to be canon.

Asbestos
2009-02-11, 07:17 PM
The prequels are exactly what I was referring to.

Why did Mystra try to get past Helm?! Why was her information so important that she couldn't have Helm relay it for her?!

Well, she was being subjected to normal, mortal ... cycles at the time.
*braces for impact!*
Disclaimer: This is just a joke, it is not meant to be insulting towards women in any way, please don't kill me.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 07:55 PM
So...she died over PMS? I find that very hard to believe. She had to have some kind of motive for wanting to talk with Ao directly.

RTGoodman
2009-02-11, 09:33 PM
So...she died over PMS? I find that very hard to believe. She had to have some kind of motive for wanting to talk with Ao directly.

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought she wasn't really trying to just talk to Ao so much as she just wanted to get back into whatever divine realm she came from. The first book in the Avatar series would be the place to look, but I thought those books were pretty terrible and don't particularly want to re-read one.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-11, 09:39 PM
That's where I got the information from. A passage of the book. I still don't get her motives.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-11, 09:50 PM
So...she died over PMS? I find that very hard to believe. She had to have some kind of motive for wanting to talk with Ao directly.

Dude, did you just combine PMS and logic? They don't go well together :smallbiggrin:

Asbestos
2009-02-12, 03:23 AM
Dude, did you just combine PMS and logic? They don't go well together :smallbiggrin:

We can wait out the storm together, Starbuck, I'll bring the Master System.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-12, 09:32 AM
This isn't answering my question.:smallannoyed:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-12, 04:40 PM
Would Elminster make a good god of magic?

Asbestos
2009-02-12, 06:59 PM
Would Elminster make a good god of magic?
Yes, yes he would. But, would that repair the untangled weave? I think its too late for that.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-13, 01:40 PM
Who said anything about the Weave?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-13, 04:07 PM
Does Cyric even have any sort of goal or reason for wanting to take over?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-13, 07:38 PM
So...religion just isn't as big of an issue in Faerun anymore? I feel so bewildered with everything that's changed, and I feel like I need something to help get my bearings.

hamishspence
2009-02-14, 06:29 AM
Given that alignment changes have no effect on powers (as written) its less of an effect- breaking your deity's rules (whatever they are) won't lead to mechanical penalties any more.

The two FR books are pretty sparse on deities, rules, etc. Which means GM has free rein to draw from whichever books they like, and make up own things, for the churches of the Realms.

Mobey_Wee
2009-02-14, 12:23 PM
So...religion just isn't as big of an issue in Faerun anymore? I feel so bewildered with everything that's changed, and I feel like I need something to help get my bearings.

I think you're reading too much into it. WotC wanted a different Realms, a very different Realms. They made it different, and now they don't want to be bogged down trying to explain why every single little thing is different. They simplified it. The way the gods all have "courts" now, like The Red Knight is in Tempus's court, Melikei(sp?) is in Silvanus's court and so on.

Well Deneir isn't really around from what I can tell, but that doesn't mean there is anything in place to stop a DM from just saying Deneir is in Ohgma's court.

Yes, there would have been a lot of upheaval and chaos over gods dying and all of this, but it is a polytheistic society. The people know there are an abundance of gods, and know from their history and different religious texts, that gods do die. It might really cripple some people, but WotC isn't trying to parallel the Realms to any type of real world, they just have a game fantasy world.

Religion is still very important, it's just not all the same gods as it was before. Just because they didn't make continuity of their story make complete sense, doesn't mean it's not an important part of the game. I think it's just left more open. It's the same in television and comics and any other fiction. Continuity is not nearly as important to the writers, as trying to tell their story or whatever. Anyway yeah.

NeoVid
2009-02-14, 02:07 PM
Does Cyric even have any sort of goal or reason for wanting to take over?

Cyric's reason is that he is the divine representation of Chaotic Evil. His reason for existence is to preform CE acts and try to get others to do the same. And it's necessary to the cosmos that there's a god with that role. Think of the Joker with godly powers and you'll have a workable idea of his motivations.

He wasn't trying to take over anything, he just wanted to unleash untold horror, and Shar gave him a good idea how. Result? Spellplague.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-14, 09:55 PM
I think you're reading too much into it. WotC wanted a different Realms, a very different Realms. They made it different, and now they don't want to be bogged down trying to explain why every single little thing is different. They simplified it. The way the gods all have "courts" now, like The Red Knight is in Tempus's court, Melikei(sp?) is in Silvanus's court and so on.

Well Deneir isn't really around from what I can tell, but that doesn't mean there is anything in place to stop a DM from just saying Deneir is in Ohgma's court.

Yes, there would have been a lot of upheaval and chaos over gods dying and all of this, but it is a polytheistic society. The people know there are an abundance of gods, and know from their history and different religious texts, that gods do die. It might really cripple some people, but WotC isn't trying to parallel the Realms to any type of real world, they just have a game fantasy world.

Religion is still very important, it's just not all the same gods as it was before. Just because they didn't make continuity of their story make complete sense, doesn't mean it's not an important part of the game. I think it's just left more open. It's the same in television and comics and any other fiction. Continuity is not nearly as important to the writers, as trying to tell their story or whatever. Anyway yeah.

So canon isn't important? I find that very hard to accept. For me, canon is the beginning and the ending. It is everything. To defy canon is to commit an unforgiveable sin. Because the minute canon is violated, you don't have The Realms anymore. You have your self-indulgent little fan-fic version of the Realms. It's like all those hacks who write Lord of the Rings fan-fiction and make Aragorn and Legolas gay lovers. YOU JUST DON'T DO THAT!

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-14, 09:57 PM
Cyric's reason is that he is the divine representation of Chaotic Evil. His reason for existence is to preform CE acts and try to get others to do the same. And it's necessary to the cosmos that there's a god with that role. Think of the Joker with godly powers and you'll have a workable idea of his motivations.

He wasn't trying to take over anything, he just wanted to unleash untold horror, and Shar gave him a good idea how. Result? Spellplague.

Yeah, but when the Joker got godly powers in the Emperor Joker storyline he was able to mold reality completely to his whims. Cyric can't do that.

Mobey_Wee
2009-02-14, 11:06 PM
So canon isn't important? I find that very hard to accept. For me, canon is the beginning and the ending. It is everything. To defy canon is to commit an unforgiveable sin. Because the minute canon is violated, you don't have The Realms anymore. You have your self-indulgent little fan-fic version of the Realms. It's like all those hacks who write Lord of the Rings fan-fiction and make Aragorn and Legolas gay lovers. YOU JUST DON'T DO THAT!

Oh I agree completely. Especially when it comes to religion and the gods. Faiths and Pantheons from FR 3.x is still my favorite source book, and that's for my 4e campaign. And it's not that canon isn't important, but it's definitely not the priority to the people trying to sell us books. It just seems to me you're fighting a losing battle here. Trying to make sense where the is none.

But the new writers aren't going to let themselves be restricted by what was done before. I'm not saying that's how it should be, I'm just saying that's how it is in 99% of all fiction.

And for all the people complaining, they're still buying the books. I really doubt there is ever going to be an official explanation for why things are the way they are. Your best bet is to start petitioning and let them know what you want for 5e:smallwink:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-15, 09:04 AM
I don't know if I'm gonna be able to afford 5e if it ever comes. I've already got 30+ 3.5 books and now I'm probably up to nine or ten 4e ones!

hamishspence
2009-02-15, 10:06 AM
In my case its more like 80 3.0-3.5 books. I would probably draw ideas for 4th ed fluff from the large collection of 3rd ed books.

in 3.0 FRCS, it pointed out- don't feel restricted by canon- its your universe.

So i'd see no problem with, say, Deneir having been imprisoned, recently escaped, then beginning to reestablish his church.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-02-15, 11:21 AM
I wish I had that kind of disposable income.

As it stands, I have no real idea what the new zeitgeist for the Realms is. What's the general theme one would take in exploring it? And of course, I have no idea what the divine-political climate is now!

hamishspence
2009-02-15, 02:24 PM
4th ed period is pretty sparse- so, we're all in same boat. Though, the Expanded Grand History details in the free Dragon downloads do bring it up to date a bit. And there are the spellplague era novels- Undead- coverng Szass Tam's takeover of Thay and attempt to enslave Bane.

Dixieboy
2009-02-16, 06:05 AM
Would Elminster make a good god of magic?

No, he most likely wouldn't, despite the fact that he has helped people alot through the times and is pretty much FR's gandalf he has become a grumpy old man who just wants to be left to his studies and the occasional visit by his old friends and the harpers, besides he'd have to face up against Asmodeous for control of magic.
Asmodeous being god of magic users now


Who said anything about the Weave? The weave pretty much IS magic, so all talk about magic is synonymous with talk about the weave


Does Cyric even have any sort of goal or reason for wanting to take over? Greed, and the fact that he's a total loon. He was crazy before becoming a god and becoming the god of intrigue, strife and dead (at one point) probably hasn't made it any better