V's Mate

[kpenguin]

So, we finally have a look at V's mate and... the mate looks almost unequivocally male. The body shape is just too... rectangular for it to be anything else.

On the other hand, the dialogue suggests that the gender is supposed to still be ambigious, so the picture might not be conclusive.

On the third hand (I'm a mutie), we've already seen an androgynous elf's full body shape with the Thieves' Guild, so...

Someone try measuring the mate's eyeline. That should help.

[SandyCaesar]

Well, all I can say is that my jaw dropped open upon seeing that, only to belatedly realize that appearance counts for little. Apparently elf-land is a genderless place.

You're right about the rectangular portion, but I've a feeling that's just a teaser. Personally, I doubt we'll find out anytime soon.

[Haruki-kun]

I also thought it looked like a male, but on second look, s/he does look pretty ambiguous. Besides, V looked like a male the first time I saw him/her/it.

Perhaps the world will never know. :smalltongue:

[Tadpole]

I never really cared one way or the other about V's gender--I'm actually kinda getting sick it always coming up (via the need to deliberately obfuscate it, which can be jarring). I'm starting to find having it come up all the time awkward and annoying. Oh well.

[TheSummoner]

My interpretation was V's mate is female (the hair made me think that more than anything, and I already associate V with male), the red haired elf-child is male, and the green haired elf-child is female...

That parent/other-parent thing cracked me up...

[SPoD]

He seems pretty male to me. Only the ponytail is even remotely feminine, and lots of men in the comic have had one of them. Heck, Rich himself has one of them.

Unless you're going to say that because he is staying home with the children and making lunch, that makes him a woman? Because that's a pretty outdated line of thinking, and the OOTS world has always had gender equality even in the human lands.

Anyway, this comic has bolstered my belief that V is a gay man. Male life partner and two obviously-adopted children!

[TheSummoner]

He seems pretty male to me. Only the ponytail is even remotely feminine, and lots of men in the comic have had one of them. Heck, Rich himself has one of them.

Unless you're going to say that because he is staying home with the children and making lunch, that makes him a woman? Because that's a pretty outdated line of thinking, and the OOTS world has always had gender equality even in the human lands.

Anyway, this comic has bolstered my belief that V is a gay man. Male life partner and two obviously-adopted children!

I'm assuming that was directed at me because I'm the only one to say I thought V's elf-mate was female. I've already explained that my interpretation was that way because 1) I already see V as male, so his mate being female makes sence, and 2) I think the hair looks feminine, and this is coming from a guy with long hair. Also, just because neither child looks like either parent doesn't necessarily make them adopted. Theres been no indication of V being gay, so I have no clue where that theory comes from...

[SPoD]

Theres been no indication of V being gay, so I have no clue where that theory comes from...

The only indication needed would be being male with a male partner.

[kpenguin]

Let's look at their eyelines, which most OotS avatarists know is one of tells of gender, by comparing their heads side-by-side with those of an agreed-upon male (Roy) and an agreed-upon female (Haley):

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/kpenguin222/eye-line.jpg

It appears that the eyes of V and his/her mate are level with each other and are about between the eyes of Roy and Haley.

[Lunaya]

Yeah, I completely thought V's mate was female at first because of the long hair. Then I noticed the rectangle. :P

[Myou]

I vote for gay couple! x3

Now who do I give my vote to? I don't see that little white kitty around here anywhere....

[Zeitgeist]

V's mate immediately struck me as female, then male, then female again.

The intention was to keep it ambiguous, and the Giant did a good job. I don't know what's up with all the "Parent" usage, but it was amusing.

There is no answer to the gender question. Nothing was revealed. Don't even bother.

[TheSummoner]

The only indication needed would be being male with a male partner.

Which would be absolutly right if you could prove either or both were male. We may take guesses and interpret their gender as we want, but that doesn't mean any of us are right. Unless word of god says otherwise, we'll never know.


Let's look at their eyelines, which most OotS avatarists know is one of tells of gender, by comparing their heads side-by-side with those of an agreed-upon male (Roy) and an agreed-upon female (Haley):

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/kpenguin222/eye-line.jpg

It appears that the eyes of V and his/her mate are level with each other and are about between the eyes of Roy and Haley.

But does any of that even apply in a race that is intended to appear entirely androgynes to any other race?

[Rettu Skcollob]

Really, on V's gender; does it matter?

Although; Oh man, I so hope for Gay Couple.

[Tanaar]

V's mate appears unequivocally masculine in that rendition. Personally, the only way I can see someone interpreting that image as feminine is if they had the preconceived notion that V was married to a woman, and its easy to talk yourself into anything if you already have a bias.

The question of adopted children and a non-traditional marriage is intriguing...for myself, I'm calling V's husband male, barring convincing evidence otherwise. V's gender remains debatable, and so therefore does V's sexual orientation.

Good stuff.

[The Minx]

Guys, who is to say that they are not BOTH male? The Elven Lands might well have same-sex marriage. So many assumptions... :smallsmile:


War and XPs
I mean, if two female paladins of the Sapphire Guard can get it on with no problems, and Miko wishes blessings on their union I daresay that there is NO ONE in the stickverse who would bat an eye at two male elves marrying.

The kids are darker than either V or his mate, they may very well be adopted.

[Ron Miel]

I thought the mate looks female, mostly the hair colour and style.

[Manga Shoggoth]

My immediate reaction was "Female hair, male face". V has always seemed to be the other way round.

And a gender neutral language. Who would have thought that Elven was a PC language...

[tomaO2]

I am currently, and aways have been, of the opinion that V is female. It never even occurred to me that it was an issue until I read the forums. I was shocked at the clues I had missed in my first read through of the comic that pointed to this debate.

Now I am forced to another thought.

Have we ever actually SEEN an unambiguously female elf?

I'm starting to think that all elves look this way in OOTS but I am probably wrong. So if anyone recalls having seen a female elf, let me know.

Thanks.

[LuisDantas]

Not much to go on about anyone's gender there, really.

For what it is worth, I have a far harder time thinking of the mate as a male than as a female. The ponytail is by far the most gendered visual clue available. I have no idea why anyone would think of that figure as male, really; it lacks breasts, sure. That's all, and of little notice in a stick comic. Would be even if we didn't expect the gender to be ambiguous.

The situation itself reinforced the effect: staying at home looking out for the kids while one's mate is out there adventuring and taking care of its projects is very much a feminine attitude, even now. More so in medieval-inspired times.

Come to think of it, that's also why I always tend to prefer thinking of V as male.

[Ron Miel]

Have we ever actually SEEN an unambiguously female elf?

I'm starting to think that all elves look this way in OOTS but I am probably wrong. So if anyone recalls having seen a female elf, let me know.

A few. Lirian, for a start. Obviously female, certainly elven.

[The Minx]

I am currently, and aways have been, of the opinion that V is female. It never even occurred to me that it was an issue until I read the forums. I was shocked at the clues I had missed in my first read through of the comic that pointed to this debate.

Now I am forced to another thought.

Have we ever actually SEEN an unambiguously female elf?

I'm starting to think that all elves look this way in OOTS but I am probably wrong. So if anyone recalls having seen a female elf, let me know.

Thanks.

Yes, we have seen Lirian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) of the Order of the Rift. Also, we have seen two dark elves, one in the evil adventuring party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) which attacked the Mountain, the other in the ladies room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html) of the Dungeon of Dorukan.



Not much to go on about anyone's gender there, really.

For what it is worth, I have a far harder time thinking of the mate as a male than as a female. The ponytail is by far the most gendered visual clue available. I have no idea why anyone would think of that figure as male, really; it lacks breasts, sure. That's all, and of little notice in a stick comic. Would be even if we didn't expect the gender to be ambiguous.

The situation itself reinforced the effect: staying at home looking out for the kids while one's mate is out there adventuring and taking care of its projects is very much a feminine attitude, even now. More so in medieval-inspired times.

Come to think of it, that's also why I always tend to prefer thinking of V as male.

Shaky assumptions, I think. :smallsmile: Plenty of guys wear ponytails. More, I'd suspect than females without a female body-type. As for the gender roles, we have ample statements to the fact that these are unimportant to elven eyes.

[Veral]

The only indication needed would be being male with a male partner.

...or female with female partner

This thread is really getting somewhere now: Vaarsuvius is (or is not) male/female with a male or female partner and 2 adoptive or biological children conceived with or without the aid of an alter self spell.

Beg your pardon: 1 or more alter self spells.

Well i think that pretty much settles it

[Felixaar]

V's Mate, at a glance, appears to be a long haired Male. It is also a known fact that real men wear aprons.

Unfortunately, this, if true, doesn't cast any particular aspirations on V's Gender unless you make several as yet unconfirmed assumptions.

[esmerelder]

Theres been no indication of V being gay, so I have no clue where that theory comes from...

Well, V *does* 'enjoy the work of Judy Garland as much as the next elf...' http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html

Seriously, though, although I do like the gay-male-couple-with-adopted-children theory, we all know the Giant is going to keep us guessing for exactly as long as he wants to... and I for one enjoy it that way!

[SMEE]

I wholeheartedly support the gay couple with adopted children theory. :smallbiggrin:

Soooo cute!

[SPoD]

Which would be absolutly right if you could prove either or both were male. We may take guesses and interpret their gender as we want, but that doesn't mean any of us are right. Unless word of god says otherwise, we'll never know.

*Sigh* Yes, but you said you had no idea where the theory comes from. The theory comes from the fact that they both look like males to me (and some others, apparently). Therefore, that is enough for us to say, "Hey, this is what I think it is." There doesn't need to be stereotyped gay behavior in order to justify me believing that, just the opinion that they are both males.

Although now that I mention it:


Well, V *does* 'enjoy the work of Judy Garland as much as the next elf...' http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html

V has also taken to the habit of shooting rainbows out of his hands recently.

And again, I have trouble believing that a man who has a ponytail in real life would decide that such a ponytail was strictly an indicator of femininity.

[Evil DM Mark3]

So, we finally have a look at V's mate and... the mate looks almost unequivocally male. The body shape is just too... rectangular for it to be anything else.As is Vs. So no score draw.

[The_Void]

So, we finally have a look at V's mate and... the mate looks almost unequivocally male. The body shape is just too... rectangular for it to be anything else.

On the other hand, the dialogue suggests that the gender is supposed to still be ambigious, so the picture might not be conclusive.

On the third hand (I'm a mutie), we've already seen an androgynous elf's full body shape with the Thieves' Guild, so...

Someone try measuring the mate's eyeline. That should help.

I thought female at first, mainly because of the ponytail, but after looking at hir for a few seconds ze seems equally androgynous.

[Trixie]

My interpretation was V's mate is female (the hair made me think that more than anything, and I already associate V with male), the red haired elf-child is male, and the green haired elf-child is female...

You've got this absolutely backwards. Look at the children - the red-headed one has curved body shape, while the green one has rectangular. Therefore, female and male.

As for the 'other' parent - I see nothing feminine about him. Rectangular body, neutral behavior. Ponytail means nothing - a lot of my (certainly male) friends with a long hair have a ponytail - because it's pretty much the only convenient hairstyle for a guy with a long hair. In my opinion, he is male, and V female.

And, seriously, saying that he is female only because he makes their meal in the kitchen and/or wears apron is both sexist and offensive, sorry :smallsigh:

[Iberiel]

The gay couple theory sounds more wonderful than a handbag full of rainbows! :smallsmile:

But what about the children/ younglings/ whatever? The dragon refers to them as V's "brood". That does not seem to support the adoption theory. Even if they have a darker complexion than either of the parent-elves.

[OITS]

Oh yeah... the ponytail DEFINITELY indicates, that it is female. The fact, that it stays at home DEFINITELY indicates, that it is female. Those are pretty sexist conclusions, don't you think? I have a ponytail too and I'm *looksdowntocheckit* male. Anyway, it's obvious, that those, who thought of V as male would see its mate as female and vice versa. I'm hoped, its mate would look exactly like V, but viewing the reactions here, I guess, it is pretty androgynous.
And to show you, IF we will ever get to know its real gender: what would you feel like, if it was the opposite of what you thought it was? Either way, half of the readers would be very disappointed, and noone could read the comic again.
They're both of undetermined gender. Well, V's mate WAS.

And now we're getting to the point: a dragon is going to brutally kill and torture V's family - and you talk about their gender. Shame on you!


@SpoD: I really, really like your idea, but (look above) I don't think, we will ever get to know.

[keldorn]

Seeing the dialogue from outside the hut. I immediatey thought that the gender would be concealed. My first glance at the mate made me think female, but then I had a look under the apron and decided that was a male body shape. As for the kids, I think green is male, red is female. However the reactions of others shows that Rich has done a masterly job of keeping things ambiguous.

[Scatman]

It is also a known fact that real men wear aprons.

Lies, real men wear pink!

There's always the chance that V and his/her partner could be hermaphrodites. As for the children, there's been plently of cases where two Caucasians had a child and it popped out African American. Why not have darker skinned children in OoTS?

[MickJay]

Funny thing, but V's mate looks almost exactly like I thought 'e would look, if the main theory (that both elves are androgynous) was right. :smallamused:

"Parent" and "Other Parent" just cracked me up :smallbiggrin:

[Kyle]

Looking at Vaarsuvius' significant other, I can't really see how anyone would think the elf is female. Of course, I think of Vaarsuvius as male as well.

So yeah, I'd never considered it before, but based on the one image, the homosexual couple with adopted children option seems the most likely option to me.

Also, the fact that both children are the same age would seem to lend credence to the idea that they're adopted. Of course, it may be differant in the universe the Order occupies, but a low fertility rate is a common feature of elves in most fiction. One would assume that twins are extremely rare amoungst elves.

[Iranon]

Well... the boxy/curvy body shape to denote sex is an established OotS convention, which can't be said for hairstyle or assumed 'traditional' gender roles.

As such, I see no reason to doubt that V's spouse is male.

[Kaytara]

I'm betting that the apron will come off and reveal uncertain curves of some kind. XD

And while the dragon does refer to the kids as V's "brood", it's entirely likely that the idea of adoption is completely inconceivable to a dragon. It never occurred to the dragon that little brats being raised by someone could NOT be related to them by blood.

It's entirely possible that the darkish skin is just a freak of elven genetics, though. XD

[Trixie]

As is Vs. So no score draw.

Only because of that long robe, which pretty much has to hang at this angle. V's mate has normal clothing, with nothing concealing, with a definite male shape.

[Querzis]

So, we finally have a look at V's mate and... the mate looks almost unequivocally male. The body shape is just too... rectangular for it to be anything else.

Yeah just like V body shape is way too rectangular to be anything else. Come on, if some people thought V was female then I dont see why you would think some people wont think V mate is female. He sure as hell doesnt look more masculine then V at all.

And yes, I personnaly think they are both male and that its a gay couple...or a shemale couple. What, they are elves who said they cant have both gender at the same time? But what I think doesnt matter, only what Rich think matter and he obviously made both V and his mate andorogynous.


Only because of that long robe, which pretty much has to hang at this angle. V's mate has normal clothing, with nothing concealing, with a definite male shape.

Oh come on, we saw dozens of people in long robe and it doesnt change their body shape at all. Beside, I'm pretty damn sure an apron would be a lot more concealing then freaking robes. And by the way, we saw V half-naked once and guess what? His body still got a rectangular shape.

[Snake-Aes]

I'm betting that the apron will come off and reveal uncertain curves of some kind. XD

And while the dragon does refer to the kids as V's "brood", it's entirely likely that the idea of adoption is completely inconceivable to a dragon. It never occurred to the dragon that little brats being raised by someone could NOT be related to them by blood.

It's entirely possible that the darkish skin is just a freak of elven genetics, though. XD

Hm, the whole blood children thing doesn't quite connect. Even if in this world adopted kids are loved less, it's quite obvious V cares, which reinforces mama dragon's point.

[Captain Six]

V's Mate is actually pretty hot. :smalltongue: I don't care how the genders result.

[Lappy9000]

This thread is really dumb (no offense to the OP). People are accusing other people of being sexist (an accusation not to be taken lightly) because they feel a fictional (and intentionally ambiguious) character is of one gender. The whole thing is especially silly, because good Mr. Burlew will probably never reveal any of the genders and is just messing with the fanbase for funsies (It's what I'd do :smallbiggrin:).

I'm not pointing out any names, but calling someone's views sexist just because they perceive Vaarsuvius' mate to be male/female/other is just stupid.

[Zevox]

Well, V's mate did also strike me as male pretty quickly, but then again I've always seen V as female, so I was probably predisposed to that. Nevertheless, unless we get some direct confirmation to the contrary, I'll probably go ahead and start referring to him as male just as I've always referred to V as female.

Zevox

[Chronos]

As for the children, there's been plently of cases where two Caucasians had a child and it popped out African American.Mixed-race parents can have children of any color, including significantly darker or significantly lighter than either parent. But there's no way for two white parents to have black biological child, and two black parents (that is to say, fully black, not mixed-race like most African Americans) could only have a white child if the kid were an albino (which would still leave the child African, not Caucasian).

Of course, this is all human genetics, and it's quite possible that the genetics of elven pigmentation works differently.

[esmerelder]

Also, the fact that both children are the same age would seem to lend credence to the idea that they're adopted. Of course, it may be differant in the universe the Order occupies, but a low fertility rate is a common feature of elves in most fiction. One would assume that twins are extremely rare amoungst elves.

<geeks out>Well, in the LOTR-verse there are Elrond's twin sons Elladan and Elrohir, and I *think* Haldir's brothers may have been twins as well... doesn't necessarily imply that they're common, but they're certainly not unknown</geek>


People are accusing other people of being sexist (an accusation not to be taken lightly) because they feel a fictional (and intentionally ambiguious) character is of one gender.

No, Trixie is not 'accusing' LuisDanta of being sexist because of what he thinks about the character, but because he made the comment:


staying at home looking out for the kids while one's mate is out there adventuring and taking care of its projects is very much a feminine attitude, even now.

I happen to agree with Trixie, and my Dad, who has a lovely BBQ apron and has cooked me many a fine meal, probably would too!

[Alysar]

I vote both female.

And it has nothing to do with the ponytail. :smalltongue:

[Kaytara]

Guys, it's perfectly possible for a guy to wear an apron and still be a badass guy.


http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/img/pto_OS_shadow_108.jpg

Here's hoping Vaarsuvius won't have to start a vendetta of his own anytime soon... :smalleek:

[Prowl]

Unless the drawing of V's mate constitutes a departure from convention, the mate is male due to having a square lower body. Females are drawn with rounded lower bodies. This would also make one of the children female, the one without the robe.

[Zeful]

I vote judicious use of the Alter Self spell. It doesn't matter after that what gender either of them are, as well as justifying the Parent, Other-Parent speaking pattern.

[Lemarc]

V's gender is undefined. It would be different if there were actual clues being dropped as to her sex, but there aren't - everything is aimed towards obfuscating it. So since clearly her sex isn't supposed to be male or female, both sides are wrong. That might change near the end of the comic if V solidifies into one sex or the other.

That said, V's mate has square hips. As I understood it, males have square hips, females have round hips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html). V's hips we can't see because of her robe. Can anyone think of any time when this rule has ever been broken? Or that we've see V's hips?

Even if V's mate is male, it has no bearing on V's own gender since those kids look adopted.

[hamishspence]

D&D has done this once before in a 3.5 sourcebook- the Symbol in Cityscape- Genderless Unholy Scion (like a half-field, but near-perfectly normal looks, except for this particular one)

I'd rather it not go that way though.

[Kaytara]

For that matter, even the hips are non-conclusive. See Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Guys, who is to say that they are not BOTH male? The Elven Lands might well have same-sex marriage. So many assumptions... :smallsmile:


War and XPs
I mean, if two female paladins of the Sapphire Guard can get it on with no problems, and Miko wishes blessings on their union I daresay that there is NO ONE in the stickverse who would bat an eye at two male elves marrying.

The kids are darker than either V or his mate, they may very well be adopted.

:smalleek: Wow. I must have not read that comic carefully. I thought that was a guy and a girl. :smalleek:

I am tempted to try and craft a link between this and some elements of Japanese popular culture.

[hamishspence]

not just Miko- several female Sapphire guard are drawn same way.

the ones in bonus strips have feminine torsos. and Belkar said: "When even the Lawful Good honeys are getting freaky, you know its going to be a sweet party."

[Iranon]

Regarding Miko et al: Wouldn't that be simply explained as shape-obscuring armour?

[Lira]

Regarding Miko et al: Wouldn't that be simply explained as shape-obscuring armour?
We see Miko without armor in a bonus strip in War & XPs and she has curves, so that's true for her at least.

[The Minx]

:smalleek: Wow. I must have not read that comic carefully. I thought that was a guy and a girl. :smalleek:

I am tempted to try and craft a link between this and some elements of Japanese popular culture.

Hee hee. :smallbiggrin:

BTW:
This blessing by Miko is made all the more telling by the fact that on the very same page she gave it, she was blasting some diner or other as a den of iniquity on account of the staff rolling dice behind the building during their off hours. One of the two other paladins pointed out that this wasn't even illegal, only Chaotic. So same sex marriage is almost certainly not Chaotic in OOTS and, all things considered, less objectionable than rolling dice by the objective morality of that universe.

[Ronan]

Perhaps we are not limited by ourselves? I don't know if this is the overall case, but being a man I saw both of them as men first. Perhaps they are... V's a wizard, you know... there *are* very obscure supplements out there that can perhaps even make a man pregnant :smalleek:

[Dausuul]

What would be really funny would be if it were revealed that V and V's mate were in fact the same sex...

...while still never actually revealing what sex they are. :)

Quite frankly, I'm 99% certain that we will never find out whether V is male or female. V's gender ambiguity is too deeply rooted at this point

[Harr]

Obviously V's mate is meant to be ambiguous and without a specific sex. The reader isn't meant to draw any conclusions from its appearance.

Still, I agree that it came out looking almost absolutely male. I mean, really, a guy? With a ponytail? At home taking care of the kids? Impossible - that clearly points to female :smallsigh:

It doesn't mean that I think the character is male - it means that I think that the Giant tried to draw an ambiguously sexed character and ended up drawing a male one. That's all. Obviously we will never know the real sex since it's been directly said by the Giant that it will never be revealed, so that's that really.

What's funny is that the Giant wears a ponytail himself, on his forum avatar. So - maybe the lack of a manly goatee was what was supposed to indicate femininity/androgynousness?

[Silverraptor]

I don't know if anyone will care about this particular post but I'm putting it in anyways.

Rich never was planning on keeping V's gender a secret.
He was just amazed that so many people were arguing over which gender V was that he decided to play a joke on all of us and keep V genderless.

So it's all of us that really started this, and I don't think he would want to stop us from having our fun!:smalltongue:

[The Minx]

Obviously we will never know the real sex since it's been directly said by the Giant that it will never be revealed, so that's that really.

To be fair, he also said in No Cure for Paladin Blues:
that Miko would be around till the end of the story. Apparently, he can change his mind from time to time.

[dragongirl13]

They are all hemaphrodites. :smallbiggrin:

[Lupy]

All elves are actually the same sex and they reproduce asexually through internal cell division. Marriages are just for the benefit of the couple.

[Drammel]

Y'know I hate to say it, but someone really needs to. *twirls evil villain mustache*

While it is sexist to assume that a woman is by definition the one wearing an apron, taking care of the kids, and sporting a pony tail; it's just as hurtful to assume that a flat chest and squared figure necessarily implies masculinity. I know we're all used to female characters having a minimum C cup in comics, but OotS consistently likes to fly in the face of expected norms, even those with which we are comfortable.

I'm perfectly aware of the "curvy line=female" convention, but I really don't think it applies in this case. This comic is an extension of the "what's its gender" running gag and does a great job of perpetuating the joke (the progeny of ambiguous ethnicity was a masterstroke). As such, the one hard rule of the OotS comic trumps the curvy line convention, namely: comedy>all.

That being said, I'd like to say that I'm not trying to call anyone a sexist, or stomp on anyone's emotions. It's fairly easy to point out a ponytail and apron does not necessarily mean female, a point that definitely needs to be said. I'm just trying to remind us all that there is another side to the gender expectations coin that is often overlooked. Rich Burlew's real mastery of his art style is that he can meld so many tiny details together and balance them against one another, just to get a laugh. The joke is that we really don't know as much about gender as we thought we did :smallwink:.

[One_Wolf]

I'd like to interrupt his discussion with the following:

I have always stayed out of these V gender dabates. However, unless and until we see detailed naked genetalia (which hopefully we will not) in my mind V is a man and his mate is a woman.

No debate. No pointing to "facts" that prove / disprove the point.

You are all free to agree or disagree (or to disregard this post entirely). As far as I am concerned it really does not matter, so I choose male.

Done.

You may all continue with your discussion. :smallbiggrin:

-One Wolf

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

When I initially saw the ponytail, I thought V's spouse was female, but then I took a more thorough look and realized that sheorhe's just as androgeneous.

[thelveres]

Ok, for me the mate's hair looks unequivocally female, not just the length but the styling as well.

As for V the main reason i thought he was mail at start was his name, the ending -us is a traditionally male ending in 90% of the names, and his hair/style wasn't "girly" enough compared to the rest of the females.

For me it's obvious that he was constructed as a male and then the giant decided to play around with the concept. - although I don't see the mate as a proof of that really since its just part of that "play".

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Ok, for me the mate's hair looks unequivocally female, not just the length but the styling as well.

As for V the main reason i thought he was mail at start was his name, the ending -us is a traditionally male ending in 90% of the names, and his hair/style wasn't "girly" enough compared to the rest of the females.

For me it's obvious that he was constructed as a male and then the giant decided to play around with the concept. - although I don't see the mate as a proof of that really since its just part of that "play".

I agree. Heck, even the characters in the story had no trouble figuring out that V was male at first, since in one of the earliest strips, Roy (IIRC) calls him "the V-Man." It's just become running gag.

However, to add a bit more chaos, let me add this thought. :smallwink:

Who says that elves have only two sexes? Maybe there are three -- V is male, Lirian is female, V's spouse is the 'third sex' and can, perhaps, reproduce with either of the other two? :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

I still say that V and V's mate are two different unbiased orthogonal quantum superpositions of male and female. Just like photon polarizations, really.

[Harr]

Ok, for me the mate's hair looks unequivocally female, not just the length but the styling as well.


Exactly the same styling as the Giant has on his avatar - even down to the parting down the middle and the shape of the 'tail' itself as well :smallbiggrin: pretty much the only difference whatsoever between the two, is the color.

[Charmy]

All elves are actually the same sex and they reproduce asexually through internal cell division. Marriages are just for the benefit of the couple.

I know a certain exceedingly female looking elf druid (and wizardly boyfriend) that would disagree with you.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[brionl]

Obviously, Varsuvius' mate is Pat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrRShvkoC6U), and their offspring are Robin and Chris.

[Deploy]

Does it matter what we think? The only reason this whole gender-neutrality started was because of us. Rich knows the gender of all four of them and our opinions don't matter in the slightest. Someday years after the comic Rich's dying breaths will be that V is a [censored] and we'll still argue! It just aggravates me so much about how we care about something we cannot change, they had genders once, but until Rich himself states them they have none. They're just a recurring gag that we start needless debates over.

Yes I am a party pooper.

[magic9mushroom]

V's mate looked male to me. That ponytail looks like a masculine ponytail, not a feminine one like Haley's.

I personally think V is female, especially considering certain hints early in the strip, but the "V is gay" supporters have this to go off:

If both parents were the same sex, then "Parent/Other Parent" would be justified terms as opposed to fudging.

[Zeful]

If both parents were the same sex, then "Parent/Other Parent" would be justified terms as opposed to fudging.

Or Rich decided that the Elven language had no gender assignments beyond male and female (no him/her, he/she, father/mother and so on).

[Nevrmore]

With the male body and the female haircut, the mate just comes out looking like a chubby butch.

So...

Yeah.

[Kami2awa]

So, we finally have a look at V's mate and... the mate looks almost unequivocally male. The body shape is just too... rectangular for it to be anything else.

On the other hand, the dialogue suggests that the gender is supposed to still be ambigious, so the picture might not be conclusive.

On the third hand (I'm a mutie), we've already seen an androgynous elf's full body shape with the Thieves' Guild, so...

Someone try measuring the mate's eyeline. That should help.

I thought s/he was female :S. I love it that apparently elves have no words for 'mother' and 'father', just 'parent' and 'other parent'.

[OITS]

This thread is really dumb (no offense to the OP). People are accusing other people of being sexist (an accusation not to be taken lightly) because they feel a fictional (and intentionally ambiguious) character is of one gender. The whole thing is especially silly, because good Mr. Burlew will probably never reveal any of the genders and is just messing with the fanbase for funsies (It's what I'd do :smallbiggrin:).

I'm not pointing out any names, but calling someone's views sexist just because they perceive Vaarsuvius' mate to be male/female/other is just stupid.

Wow, you really got the point... Nobody is a sexist, because he thinks the one thing about their gender or the other (and I said it not just once, that they both are meant to be androgynous), but it definitely IS sexist, if you define the gender of somebody by the clothes they wear, or their hair (namely aprons and ponytails). So could you please think the next time before posting?



EDIT: Oh, I forgot: staying at home with the children is a very good indicator -.-

[RabbitHoleLost]

I think I've figured it out.
There are no female elves, just incredibly feminine men-elves.
And if you think there are, you're wrong. Those are just those tricksy elves playing pranks on us silly humans.

Hence, both V and his mate are male. If you take this post seriously, you are fantastically silly.

[TheBlackArcher]

I think I've figured it out.
There are no female elves, just incredibly feminine men-elves.
And if you think there are, you're wrong. Those are just those tricksy elves playing pranks on us silly humans.

Hence, both V and his mate are male. If you take this post seriously, you are fantastically silly.
I was gonna write 'And elves would reproduce how' but then I read the last bit in white xD

[Kaytara]

Or Rich decided that the Elven language had no gender assignments beyond male and female (no him/her, he/she, father/mother and so on).

Which, fluff-wise, is completely believable. They are a long-lives species, usually don't have all that many offspring and probably don't worry about reproduction about 99.9999% of their time. It's entirely possible that their pronouns and words place more weight on function and position than on largely irrelevant physical characteristics.

[kusje]

As for the children, there's been plently of cases where two Caucasians had a child and it popped out African American.

um wut? You have got to be kidding me.

[Scarlet Knight]

um wut? You have got to be kidding me.

I blame Eugene.:smallredface:

There appears to be 3 ways a mother can have a rectangular body type drawn.
1) by wearing robes.
2) by wearing armor
3 by actually being shaped like Nathan Lane in The Birdcage.:smalleek:

[Lupy]

I know a certain exceedingly female looking elf druid (and wizardly boyfriend) that would disagree with you.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

Maybe Lirian casts a polymorph spell every morning for Dorukan's benifit?

[TheSummoner]

Maybe Lirian casts a polymorph spell every morning for Dorukan's benifit?

Including before she even knew him and before they were in a relationship?

[Lyth]

For those of you pointing out the whole "squared hips = male, rounded curves = female" and using Lirian as an example of an unambiguous elven female, I have one things to say:

If armor can make Miko's hips square, who says the skirt Lirian is can't do the same?

Point is, unless there are / are not curvy-breast-looking things (which an apron can hide, as well as V's robes), its unfair to draw any conclusion about the gender of the cartoon in question. If it is meant to be ambiguous, then there's no use fighting over it - for all essential purposes, both sides are right.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Which, fluff-wise, is completely believable. They are a long-lives species, usually don't have all that many offspring and probably don't worry about reproduction about 99.9999% of their time. It's entirely possible that their pronouns and words place more weight on function and position than on largely irrelevant physical characteristics.

Or, alternately, the dragon is unable to translate the words beyond telling that they're something to do with parents :smallbiggrin: and can't tell the gender.

Kind of like an alien with a language containing strongly gendered words might have a hard time telling what "mama" and "papa" meant because they both end in -a. :smallwink:

[Farrago]

Perhaps it's the fact that I myself am a ponytail sporting dude, but V's mate strikes me as androgynous for the most part, but more than the other option, male. It might be the body type, I don't know, it may be the clothes that s/he is wearing, but I really can't grasp the "V's mate is female." dealy. Given that ponytails are traditionally worn by females, there are two things that most people may not be considering.

1. Male elves tend to be more effeminate than their male counterparts of other races.

2. Ponytails are not always for females. Correct me if I'm wrong, but judging by his avatar, Rich Burlew himself sports a ponytail and is a guy.

Though, V first struck me as male when s/he first appeared. Gay couple+adoption? That would explain the dark skinned children (though they may just be dirty, why V's mate told them to go wash up). V is female? Haley probably knows V's true gender, but has been sworn to secrecy, or no one has bothered to ask (this would explain why they always room together). Of course, she could just trust V enough to not do anything/if V is male, he's a homosexual/just trustworthy friends.

Until further evidence comes along, my stance is:
V=I have no idea in the Nine Hells
V's mate=I have no idea in the Nine Hells

[Lord_Drayakir]

Well, what can I say. I thought of V's Mate as female, but, I make no judgments. It's my perceptions, and it could easily be that it's a guy with a ponytail, and a slender physique.

And the "Parent/Other Parent" bit was HILARIOUS. I bet that in Elven, there's no counterpart for "Father" and "Mother," just status of parentage. Tee-hee.

[Optimystik]

V has also taken to the habit of shooting rainbows out of his hands recently.

Thread won on first page.


Still, I agree that it came out looking almost absolutely male. I mean, really, a guy? With a ponytail? At home taking care of the kids? Impossible - that clearly points to female :smallsigh:

*facepalm*
*facedesk*
*facewall*


What's funny is that the Giant wears a ponytail himself, on his forum avatar. So - maybe the lack of a manly goatee was what was supposed to indicate femininity/androgynousness?

Elves don't get facial hair, so lack of a goatee means absolutely jack.

[Animefunkmaster]

Has anyone considered that they could be lesbians with adopted children?

[Optimystik]

Has anyone considered that they could be lesbians with adopted children?

If they are, V's mate is rather square, and we know that female elves not wearing robes or armor (see Lirian, various drow etc.) appear curvy.

So she'd have to be really, really butch :smalltongue:

[RabbitHoleLost]

I was gonna write 'And elves would reproduce how' but then I read the last bit in white xD

Mitosis, obviously.

[Zevox]

Has anyone considered that they could be lesbians with adopted children?
If they're lesbians, the children wouldn't even have to be adopted. V would have known at least Alter Self, possibly Polymorph, back before her kids were born, and could shifted into a male form to impregnate her partner.

Wouldn't work the other way around (gay male couple), since Alter Self and Polymorph have such limited durations, which are nowhere near enough to carry and birth a child. They'd need Polymorph Any Object for that, which even now is too high level for V to cast. But the lower level spells would work for a lesbian couple.

Zevox

[turkishproverb]

The only indication needed would be being male with a male partner.

Well, V IS the only one Haley would room with. That suggests a lack of threat in the romance department, and given haley's latent bisexuality is in there yelling at her somewhere, it's certainly an argument for gay male V.

[Kai Maera]

The fact that a majority in this thread believes V's mate to be male, while having nothing more than a rectangular body shape and hairstyle to show -- both proven to not actually be indicators of gender in OotS's elves -- makes me :smallfurious:

Anyway, I believe the dragon will be... surprised. We have no proof of V's mate being more or less old than V, and have no idea what hir fighting capabilities are. It could easily be that the mate is of a very high level; how would the dragon know if the family lives in a peaceful countryside?

Personally, I like how the mate speaks so plainly of V "mastering the ways of magic," as though it were something as simple as getting groceries.

[Optimystik]

The fact that a majority in this thread believes V's mate to be male, while having nothing more than a rectangular body shape and hairstyle to show -- both proven to not actually be indicators of gender in OotS's elves -- makes me :smallfurious:

His mate is not wearing robes or armor. There have been no females in the strip so far not wearing in robes or armor whose gender has been inconclusive, not even elves. V's body when naked (#186) was just as square as that of his partner. That leaves us with three logical conclusions:

1) Either V, his partner, or both are drawn differently from every other elf in the strip;
2) V's partner is wearing armor under her apron (if female);
3) They are both male (which implies but doesn't prove homosexuality).

[hamishspence]

I'm inclined to go with 1: and take the "cannot draw any conclusions about V or Mate yet" view.

[The_Void]

I've decided that elves have three genders - male, female and neutral. Neutral elves can reproduce with all genders, which means that the majority of neutral elves are trisexual. Both V and hir mate are neutral and trisexual.

[Kai Maera]

His mate is not wearing robes or armor. There have been no females in the strip so far not wearing in robes or armor whose gender has been inconclusive, not even elves. V's body when naked (#186) was just as square as that of his partner. That leaves us with three logical conclusions:

1) Either V, his partner, or both are drawn differently from every other elf in the strip;
2) V's partner is wearing armor under her apron (if female);
3) They are both male (which implies but doesn't prove homosexuality).

There have also been no female elves aside from Lirian, one in the bathroom, and a dark elf; we have no other reference point to set on standard elves, aside from assuming that they are identical to humans.

So, logically, you always have and always will think of V as a male, correct?

[Optimystik]

There have also been no female elves aside from Lirian, one in the bathroom, and a dark elf; we have no other reference point to set on standard elves, aside from assuming that they are identical to humans.

You forgot the one at the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands, although I'm just going by the ears.

It's true that square females and curvy males could exist in OotS-land (when not wearing armor or robes, that is), but until one is definitively identified as such I have no reason to believe that special rules exist for V and his mate.


So, logically, you always have and always will think of V as a male, correct?

Correct.

[TheSummoner]

1) Either V, his partner, or both are drawn differently from every other elf in the strip;
2) V's partner is wearing armor under her apron (if female);
3) They are both male (which implies but doesn't prove homosexuality).

or

4) With the exception of Lirian, who is obviously female, all elves are drawn differently than every other character in the strip so it is impossible to determine their gender from body shape alone. If the pointy eared woman in the tavern of infinate one night stands was an elf, it can be explained that if she wasn't obviously female, there would be no appeal to Roy and she would also be an exception to the rule. Drow are not included in this rule.

[Optimystik]

or

4) With the exception of Lirian, who is obviously female, all elves are drawn differently than every other character in the strip so it is impossible to determine their gender from body shape alone. If the pointy eared woman in the tavern of infinate one night stands was an elf, it can be explained that if she wasn't obviously female, there would be no appeal to Roy and she would also be an exception to the rule. Drow are not included in this rule.

Why yes, that's a possibility, as is V's mate secretly wearing a +3 Belt of Gender Confusion (making the wearer appear opposite to whatever you think it is). :smallwink:

While just about anything is possible, as I said before I'll trust the three options I came up with until the Giant gives me sufficient reason to believe otherwise (such as... a female square-bodied elf.)

EDIT: There are also several busty (for stick figures, anyway) elves in SoD guarding Lirian's glade (page 51), so we can assume they follow the same rules she does.

[Veral]

Has anyone considered that they could be lesbians with adopted children?

Yeah, me in post 23 of this thread. Do try to keep up! :smallbiggrin:

[Ozymandias9]

I initially identified both V and the mate as female. Actually, I tend to identify most androgynous individuals as female, even in real life. I'm sure that says something about me, but self-psychoanalysis isn't my thing.

It's pretty clear that the Giant intends their genders to be ambiguous.

[Quorothorn]

Why yes, that's a possibility, as is V's mate secretly wearing a +3 Belt of Gender Confusion (making the wearer appear opposite to whatever you think it is). :smallwink:

While just about anything is possible, as I said before I'll trust the three options I came up with until the Giant gives me sufficient reason to believe otherwise (such as... a female square-bodied elf.)

EDIT: There are also several busty (for stick figures, anyway) elves in SoD guarding Lirian's glade (page 51), so we can assume they follow the same rules she does.

Maybe High Elves are androgynous, but Wood Elves aren't? :smallconfused:

[Optimystik]

Maybe High Elves are androgynous, but Wood Elves aren't? :smallconfused:

Maybe. See what I mean?

[Quorothorn]

Maybe. See what I mean?

That there's a whole lot of maybes that can be fielded? :smallbiggrin: If so, indeed I do.

[Istari]

Now for the important question, V's mate's class.
I personally think druid

[Optimystik]

That there's a whole lot of maybes that can be fielded? :smallbiggrin: If so, indeed I do.

But of course. :smallsmile:


Now for the important question, V's mate's class.
I personally think druid

I'm HOPING druid. This comic needs one that doesn't suck ass. Yes, I'm including Lirian.