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The Giant
2009-02-06, 01:17 AM
New comic is up. However, we are having some sort of display problem where it isn't showing up in the sidebar. In order to see it, go to #628 and click the Forward button.

We'll try to fix the problem as soon as possible.

THAC0
2009-02-06, 01:17 AM
Huh, I saw it in my sidebar, but now it's gone!

Fantastic comic.

kpenguin
2009-02-06, 01:19 AM
Mama dragon is awesome.

I guess this sort of derails V's plans, doesn't it?

Tredrick
2009-02-06, 01:19 AM
Great comic.

I am now in the V is a male camp after seeing the mate.

Wolfbite
2009-02-06, 01:20 AM
Awesome. V has been in dire need of perspective for a loooong time.

Ninjamuffin
2009-02-06, 01:24 AM
Aw, V's kids are so cute.
Also, strangely dark-skinned.
Hmmm............

arguskos
2009-02-06, 01:26 AM
Poor V!! I feel so bad for him, really, I do. Poor dude, lets hope he can save his family.

Lynquesh
2009-02-06, 01:26 AM
DON'T DO IT RICH! IT'S NOT RIGHT! turn the mate into a hat (that would be hilarious personnally), but not the kids! :smallconfused:

Zevox
2009-02-06, 01:27 AM
:eek:

Oh, ****. I don't see a way to stop this. V's fresh out of high-level spells with any chance of stopping the Dragon. Even if she wasn't, if the Dragon is strong enough to cast Greater Teleport, it can definitely cast another Antimagic Field, so even if V got Quarr's help teleporting after the Dragon, it would be futile. And she's isolated from any other source of aid, and Quarr himself has even less chance to being able to do something to stop the Dragon than V herself, especially with Antimagic Field in play.

...V's mate and kids...

:smallfrown:

Zevox

Surprise!
2009-02-06, 01:28 AM
Is the Milkelf darkskinned?

Boawchikaboawboaw

Ellen
2009-02-06, 01:31 AM
OK, Giant you CAN'T kill the cute little kids. Yes, I feel sorry for the dragon. Yes, I could understand going through a lot of effort to bring her son back.

But, no cute kid killing.

But, why do V's kids have darker skin tone than either of their parents? And, although they have two different hair colors, neither matches V?

I mean, Elven genetics may not match human DNA. Maybe dark skin is a recessive for them instead of the other way around and maybe red hair sometimes darkens to a mature purple . . . but this isn't quite adding up.

It also doesn't quite add up that the dragon made a big mistake and is attacking the wrong family. The feel isn't quite right.

Ninaboo
2009-02-06, 01:32 AM
The children could be adopted and V and hir mate are a same sex couple!

GO ELVES!

but V, YOUR AIM SUCKS!

Larspcus2
2009-02-06, 01:33 AM
Lol: "Parent, do you think other parent will return home soon"


Anyway, maybe the children will roll nat 20s on their saves vs soul bind.

it COULD happen =/

XR4-IT
2009-02-06, 01:33 AM
I love the fact that V's Mate is just has androgynous as V. I thought something like that might happen. Looking forward to seeing how he she it deals with this.

Mr. Scaly
2009-02-06, 01:34 AM
I feel kind of torn on who to root for here...

12sea21
2009-02-06, 01:34 AM
i dont know why you are acting as if V already has kids... if V has... please tell me how u know!
And i dont know why some of you say Her and some Him... its V for now! :D unless u got the origins of PC... which im about to get!! :D Thanks Rich!

Lynquesh
2009-02-06, 01:36 AM
Qarr could easily teleport near V's home. I think demons/imps get teleport infinate. so if Quarr can keep V safe for a couple hours w/ his/her kids then V can prep his spells for the Mamma Dragon, might be a little more fair fight. expecially, if qarr can teleport the kids to the boat w/ the rest of the group. then hunt this dragon down. i think the Stick could beat her down a little bit and keep V's fam safe so they can progress this plot line a little. tell then. . . . :smalleek:

bluewind95
2009-02-06, 01:36 AM
That... has to be the most cruel comic ever. :smalleek:

Noooo, Rich! You mustn't! :smallfrown:

nosignal
2009-02-06, 01:38 AM
Things don't look good indeed. This might well be the straw that breaks the camel's back, V's fall into darkness etc.

Maybe(hopefully) his mate is some kind of retired fighter-type, though V's reaction at the end doesn't suggest any kind of hope.

Looks like V's kids are adopted or something, or they play out in the sun a lot.

chiasaur11
2009-02-06, 01:38 AM
I would not want to be V right now.

That dragon is going to get so very much payback.

Also "Other Parent" is class.

Gloverboy
2009-02-06, 01:39 AM
Wow...Thats....thats dark...ok. Well. Lets see where this goes.

Genius on the ambiguity of Elven translation keeping V's gender in the bag. "Other Parent," cracks me up. Sweet.

Surprise!
2009-02-06, 01:40 AM
Qarr could easily teleport near V's home. I think demons/imps get teleport infinate. so if Quarr can keep V safe for a couple hours w/ his/her kids then V can prep his spells for the Mamma Dragon, might be a little more fair fight. expecially, if qarr can teleport the kids to the boat w/ the rest of the group. then hunt this dragon down. i think the Stick could beat her down a little bit and keep V's fam safe so they can progress this plot line a little. tell then. . . . :smalleek:

1. V doesn't have a couple of hours, the Dragon is teleporting directly to the home.

2. Qarr is still under the effects of Dimensional Anchor and is fast healing at the moment (thanks to V)

Raging Gene Ray
2009-02-06, 01:40 AM
The children could be adopted and V and hir mate are a same sex couple!


Or it could just be recessive genes. I like how this was done, we get backstory on V's family and no definite information whatsoever on his/her gender or sexual orientation.

Also...I wonder if V's mate or kids have class levels...



Maybe(hopefully) his mate is some kind of retired fighter-type, though V's reaction at the end doesn't suggest any kind of hope.


Do you really expect V to put any stock in the power of warrior classes? Without the Almighty Power of Magic, it would be impossible for any meat shield to defeat a dragon.

Surprise!
2009-02-06, 01:42 AM
Or it could just be recessive genes. I like how this was done, we get backstory on V's family and no definite information whatsoever on his/her gender or sexual orientation.

Also...I wonder if V's mate or kids have class levels...

I doubt the kids but the mate might be some sort of druid. Based solely on green attire and salad for lunch.

Alex Warlorn
2009-02-06, 01:42 AM
F*** the BS justifications the b****h just spewed.

F*** her and everything she stands for.

She's off her rocker if she actually believes that garbage coming out of her mouth.

SCRUBBED

'Just because -insert random reason- you think it's okay to kill my loved ones.'

UGH! I don't know if her mate was just playing cards when some adventurers broke down his cave door and saw treasure and dragon and decided to get ride of the dragon. And at this point, I don't care!

I don't know if the order stick ran back inside the darkness thought "(Dragon+Treasure)- Treasure = Us Much Richer" and ran back at him or wether the dragon just broke off their escape rout, and AGAIN I can't bring myself to care! Not anymore!

She's going to murder three people whose only crime (who don't know her and never knew her son) is being genetically related to her son's killer, and falling in love with her son's killer, then VIOLATED THEIR SOULS, and make sure they die the slowest most horrible death she can think of.

Kill the b-tch. Given her the same justice given to the Pharaoh of Egypt with her having declared her own punishment and have her soul bound somewhere so SHE'S the one never to be reunited with her loved ones in the afterlife... Then again that would deny her exactly what she deserves... -justice- for her own actions!!!

Kill her and make sure she stays dead!

When forced to chose between the lives your enemies and your loved ones, there is no choice.

Hopefully V will be able to get a 'only if they live' clause of his/her own inescapable contract with the imp. The possible loss of one soul in exchange for two or three... it's mathematics.

Kill the b-tch. Her species and type didn't make her a monster, her own actions did!

The Voice of Mod: Flames and/or insults based on religion (or lack thereof) are not tolerated on this message board.

The Giant
2009-02-06, 01:45 AM
OK, the display problem should be fixed. If you're still not seeing it in your sidebar, force reload the page.

Surprise!
2009-02-06, 01:45 AM
RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE


Well Chromatic Dragons are listed as evil. And black dragons are "some of the most evil tempered of the true dragons" (Draconomicon)

Kaytara
2009-02-06, 01:46 AM
Yeah, I get the impression is that the mismatched skin and hair colours are just to shake things up. The kids could be adopted but they also could simply be a result of weird elf genetics. I mean, from what we've seen so far elves have no 'normal' dominant hair colours or anything - it's everything from light green to blue to purple. It would be consistent.

Soul Bind, eh? Oh gods. I expected something like that. I thought the dragon would just devour them and leave no remains, but now that I think of it, why would she give V a chance of finding a 17th level cleric when she apparently hasn't been able to?

This is really, really terrible. Poor Vaarsuvius. And to miss as a result of his trance deprivation, too... What a horror. :smalleek:

Brauley
2009-02-06, 01:46 AM
NOT THE KIDS!!!! Please don't bump the kids! They are so cute and innocent!

Porthos
2009-02-06, 01:47 AM
I doubt the kids but the mate might be some sort of druid. Based solely on green attire and salad for lunch.

Of course it's pointless to do this sort of speculation (but I'm gonna do it anyway :smalltongue:) it looks like the elf in purple is studying to be a mage (robes) while the other child might be angling to be come a ranger (since it's wearing green).

And the fact that the skin tones in no way match either parent is a nice touch. :smallbiggrin:

Raging Gene Ray
2009-02-06, 01:52 AM
Given her the same justice...with her having declared her own punishment and have her soul bound somewhere so SHE'S the one never to be reunited with her loved ones in the afterlife...

That part sounds like stooping to her level, just like she's doing to V...I'd settle for killed when V's mate gets EXTREMELY lucky (like making a string of confirmed critical hits or casting Hold Monster and the dragon just happens to roll a natural 1 on the save).

The Glyphstone
2009-02-06, 01:53 AM
EPIC RAGE

Woah dude....stick figure comic, y'know. Overreaction much?

Larspcus2
2009-02-06, 01:55 AM
Ooh! Maybe there will be a deus ex machina, or the DM fakes a roll behind a screen.

Or the aforementioned nat 20 save, because the dragon only has 2 scrolls.

Da'Shain
2009-02-06, 01:56 AM
I'm assuming V will immediately dismiss Quarr's dimensonal anchor and agree to anything in order for the imp to teleport and save his family (although I have no idea if imps can teleport with other people?), which will begin V down the path to evil.

Of course, the dragon might actually succeed.

Which would pretty much guarantee that V continues on the path to ultimate arcane might at the expense of all else, which will not so much begin V on the path to evil as provide V with a Lamborghini to roar down the path to evil doing three times the speed limit.


Gotta say, though ... the four words are probably not coming up soon. Because V has to say them "for all the wrong reasons," and unless V's in agony over something other than the imminent death of his mate and soul binding of his kids, anything he's going to say will be for the right reasons (namely, to save his family).

I still say "Disintegrate ... Gust of Wind" were the four words. Definitely for the wrong reasons, arguably the right thing to do, and directly caused the falling out that led to V separating from the group to spend more time studying for ultimate arcane powah, which in turn led to the dragon being able to render V powerless and deliver her little speech. Mama dragon probably wouldn't have gone after V's family without explaining why, simply because she wants V to know exactly why it's happening so that it will hurt all the more.

Alex Warlorn
2009-02-06, 01:57 AM
Well Chromatic Dragons are listed as evil. And black dragons are "some of the most evil tempered of the true dragons" (Draconomicon)

Reminds me of Redcloak, he seems to keep forgetting the majority of his race is Evil. And instead of trying to change his people's culture (which at the end of the day is their own) so they slowly gain more respect the right way, he does as any modern man and choses to change the world to suit them.

She IS a hypocrite, she venomously declares she, her son, and her kind is MORE than just their alignment and type, and goes and proves she's just that.

"Even the sinful care for their loved ones."

If she had proven she had the chance to kill V's loved ones and chose not to (WITHOUT planning to later), she'd have proven she was made of better stuff than her DNA, but instead she proves she's chosen to be a slave to it.

Ceric
2009-02-06, 02:00 AM
Not only are the kids unusually dark-skinned, they don't have any matching hair. Okay, one of them's green but neither is purple.

How slowly could a dragon eat a kid, anyways? I mean, she's huge and they're tiny. Not to mention making a hat...

Did V just do a kip-up???

Okay, sorry, I'm at my cynical almost-midnight-and-still-didn't-finish-homework stage right now.

Maybe V can dismiss the Dimensional Anchor on Qarr, in the same way that the dragon did the Antimagic Field. Correct me if there's something specific in the rules that I missed.

Porthos
2009-02-06, 02:01 AM
I'm assuming V will immediately dismiss Quarr's dimensonal anchor .....

Sadly, Dimensional Anchor isn't dismissable.*

* I know I know I know. Rich can change the rules as he sees fits. No need to mention that. :smallwink:

dps
2009-02-06, 02:02 AM
I'm not sure this needs to be spoilered, but...
If the dragon does eat V's children, then the comic has gotten very, very, dark. On the one hand, I'd kind of admire The Giant for having the guts to go that far. On the other hand, the kids are kind of cute...

Drakron
2009-02-06, 02:03 AM
You know ... I like this.

One of the flaws of using the alignment system in D&D is people looking at the listed alignment and then decide if they are going to talk with it or just kill it.

A lot of people are up in arms with "oh the poor children" ... being a child should NOT be a immunity card and we already had some interesting things on the strip, like Roy's family.

Poit-Narf
2009-02-06, 02:04 AM
Oh damn. V's really getting unlucky with attack rolls today.

DrGonzo
2009-02-06, 02:04 AM
First: Great comic!

Second: Very, very evil. Promising to kill the children was already evil, trapping their souls adds the very, very.

If the dragon succeeds, V will go out of hir's way to kill his newly acquired arch-nemesis, so quest for ultimate arcane power it is.

Still, I hope the dragon doesn't succeed.. Although the hat thing would be funny..

Da'Shain
2009-02-06, 02:05 AM
Sadly, Dimensional Anchor isn't dismissable.*

* I know I know I know. Rich can change the rules as he sees fits. No need to mention that. :smallwink:It's not? Why? I was under the impression that you could choose to dismiss the effects of a spell that you yourself cast whenever you want unless it's specifically noted that you can't.

SPoD
2009-02-06, 02:08 AM
It's not? Why? I was under the impression that you could choose to dismiss the effects of a spell that you yourself cast whenever you want unless it's specifically noted that you can't.

It's specifically noted that you can't dismiss Dimensional Anchor due to the fact that it does not have a "(D)" next to the duration. Only spells with that duration are dismissable.

DrakebloodIV
2009-02-06, 02:08 AM
Hmmm..... V's mate has the male body type.

Also, my money says that the dragoness successfully kills both of V's children, if not its mate as well. After all, Rich has given us fair warning that this will be an adult comic and wont always be hugs and smiles. If anything I for one support this decision 'cause so far V has been the flattest character and has been in sore need of some characterization. Unfortunately, that characterization comes in the form of a painful slaughtering of Vs offspring. Still, paybacks a bitch...

kerravon
2009-02-06, 02:09 AM
Oh. My.

I've been wanting more character development for Varsuvius, but...wow. I think he's in a lose/lose situation, no matter what he does at this point. (Also, the 'mate' looks pretty female to me, so I'm going with the masculine pronouns at this point)

I see a deal with the imp in the offing.

Porthos
2009-02-06, 02:09 AM
It's not? Why? I was under the impression that you could choose to dismiss the effects of a spell that you yourself cast whenever you want unless it's specifically noted that you can't.

I may be a bit rusty on my exact game-fu (been a few years since I played) but I am 99.9% positive that you can only dismiss a spell that has a (D) designator in it's duration description.

EDIT::: As usual, what SPoD said. :smallwink:

kirbsys
2009-02-06, 02:11 AM
Poor V, (s)he must be feeling so helpless.

Zevox
2009-02-06, 02:11 AM
It's not? Why? I was under the impression that you could choose to dismiss the effects of a spell that you yourself cast whenever you want unless it's specifically noted that you can't.
Just the opposite. Spells that are dismissible are noted as such with a (D) next to their duration entry. Dimensional Anchor does not have this, and as such is not dismissible unless the Giant house-rules it.

Zevox

Animefunkmaster
2009-02-06, 02:13 AM
I am in the long shot crowd that the kids are adopted and V is still a lady... or those simply aren't her kids/family.

Elves could all be androgynous like that, could have confused the dragon.:smalltongue:

Lichtouch
2009-02-06, 02:14 AM
Not too sure where the Giant is going with this, still.

I will be incredibly disappointed if it's a plot device to get V to sign a pact with the imp.

Porthos
2009-02-06, 02:15 AM
BTW, what the imp might be able to do is....

contact one of his buddies (via a spell) on the lower planes to stop the Ancient Black Dragon.

Said buddy could (presumably through the use of some sort of scrying) pop in at the V-man's house and save the day.

And all it would require is one singular immortal soul... :smallamused:

Presuming this isn't a load of codswallop of course. :smallamused: It's entirely possible that the ABD is yanking V's chain for some purpose (mental torture... is actually in league with the imp, plenty of possibilities.

Da'Shain
2009-02-06, 02:15 AM
Oh. My mistake.

Well, (Greater) Dispel Magic, then? V usually has several of those.

MReav
2009-02-06, 02:17 AM
For those who are horrified at the slaughter of V's children, sadly Rich has made precedent with the Start Of Darkness prequel comic.

RogueNull
2009-02-06, 02:18 AM
Oh. My mistake.

Well, (Greater) Dispel Magic, then? V usually has several of those.

Just a (non-Greater) Dispel will do. From 3.5 SRD:

"You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself."

Tadpole
2009-02-06, 02:19 AM
I *love* this focus on getting to know V. I always like V, but we never really got a chance to know V.

I'm really looking forward to finding out where this goes.

Zevox
2009-02-06, 02:21 AM
Oh. My mistake.

Well, (Greater) Dispel Magic, then? V usually has several of those.
Greater, not unless she's higher level than she seems. She already used up all her 6th level spells other than her bonus evocation slot, and Greater Dispel Magic isn't an evocation.

Regular, doable. It's only 3rd-level. And it does work automatically against her own spells, no check needed. So that would be the way to go.

Zevox

MorhgorRB
2009-02-06, 02:22 AM
First: Great comic!

Still, I hope the dragon doesn't succeed.. Although the hat thing would be funny..

Alright, who polymorphed Belkar and gave him a bunch of sorcerer levels? :smallmad:

Lazaro
2009-02-06, 02:26 AM
More and more I love mama dragon. Sure it's an eye for an eye taken to extreme, but still something makes me like her.

timbot
2009-02-06, 02:26 AM
I am under the impression the Dragon has made a huge mistake. Her (yes. V is a female. I will die with that view, no matter what happens) supposed children have the wrong skin color, hair color, etc. I don't think elves are THAT far removed from humans. Complete backwardsness is rather unlikely. It seems to me that perhaps another family moved into the same house, or all houses in elf-land are the same. Occam's razor says they aren't her children.

RosesOnConcrete
2009-02-06, 02:28 AM
Oh CRAP. The kids are cute as all heck, I love that Mate is just as androgynous as V, and right now their chances for survival look to be slim to nil. I see a great big Player Punch coming in the next few strips.

chionophile
2009-02-06, 02:31 AM
I feel kind of torn on who to root for here...

You're seriously considering rooting for an evil dragon to eat and soul bind children? wtf?

Also, a question - couldn't the dragon find someone to cast (True?) Resurrection on her son? Or can dragons not be brought back to life?

SPoD
2009-02-06, 02:34 AM
I am under the impression the Dragon has made a huge mistake. Her (yes. V is a female. I will die with that view, no matter what happens) supposed children have the wrong skin color, hair color, etc. I don't think elves are THAT far removed from humans. Complete backwardsness is rather unlikely. It seems to me that perhaps another family moved into the same house, or all houses in elf-land are the same. Occam's razor says they aren't her children.

Occam's razor is worthless in a fiction story where the author can and does write whatever is most interesting, not what is simplest.

And back on topic: They're adopted. Or from a previous marriage for one of the two parents.

Brauley
2009-02-06, 02:34 AM
I personally think that they are V's kids and am veering over to the "V is female" Side of the fence after seeing his supposed mate

axraelshelm
2009-02-06, 02:36 AM
Okay is it just me or V's mate looks alot like Haley?

Porthos
2009-02-06, 02:39 AM
I personally think that they are V's kids and am veering over to the "V is female" Side of the fence after seeing his supposed mate

I happen to agree with what SPoD said in another thread:

Gay male with adopted children. :smallsmile:

silvadel
2009-02-06, 02:39 AM
I still think the dragon and imp are working together. This could all be a ruse.

12sea21
2009-02-06, 02:42 AM
Another Half Male half female! lol... how did rich do that? i do not know.. but it was pretty unexpected for me.. im like "now i will know if V is a male/female!" then i looked and i was like "DAMN!" :smallsmile:

Brauley
2009-02-06, 02:42 AM
I happen to agree with what SPoD said in another thread:

Gay male with adopted children. :smallsmile:

Woohoo! My first time being quoted haha. And to stay on topic.

Hipocritical dragon. It knows the pain of losing a child yet it is still evil enough to inflict that pain on another sentient being....... Evil to the 10th power

PaulRedeker22
2009-02-06, 02:42 AM
Here it is, the four words for ultimate arcane power, said to Qarr for his help but for all the wrong reasons:


"What do you want?"

dps
2009-02-06, 02:44 AM
Okay is it just me or V's mate looks alot like Haley?

V's mate basically has Haley's old hairstyle; otherwise I don't see any particular resemblence.

xanaphia
2009-02-06, 02:49 AM
I like Other Parent.

I think that one child will die.

What are these four words?

DrGonzo
2009-02-06, 02:55 AM
Alright, who polymorphed Belkar and gave him a bunch of sorcerer levels? :smallmad:

Indeed.. Come to think of it, it's nacho dip all over again..

musicnerd
2009-02-06, 02:56 AM
Oh no, not those adorable kids! I feel bad for the dragon for having lost her baby, but :smallfrown:.

I still think V is a girl. Not sure if the mate is a guy or a girl, though.

Flabbicus
2009-02-06, 02:57 AM
Nice comic! I think V's family is suitably androgynous and they don't really shed any light on V's gender (which will most likely never be revealed over the course of the comic). Also, you can't help but love the elven children making macaroni pictures.


I like Other Parent.

I think that one child will die.

What are these four words?

V's obviously going to go all Mama Weasley on them after the dragon kills one of his/her offspring.

"Not my child, bitch!"

And then V kills Belkar out of spite.

JeminiZero
2009-02-06, 03:04 AM
Do you really expect V to put any stock in the power of warrior classes? Without the Almighty Power of Magic, it would be impossible for any meat shield to defeat a dragon.


Actually, with the right amount of twinkery, it is perfectly possible for a PC to beat down a dragon without relying on magic.

Lowkey
2009-02-06, 03:04 AM
So wait, we have a person of ambiguous sex with pale skin but the genes for dark skin.

Is V secretly Michael Jackson?



And I'm gonna lol so hard if Mr/Mrs V has enough power to smoke the dragon. I doubt it, because the dragon has been observing the scene and would know, plus it would gut the dramatic tensions, but it would still be funny.

FoE
2009-02-06, 03:05 AM
I'm surprised that the dragon didn't take Vaarsuvius along with her. You know, so she could devour the children in front of V while she watched helplessly. That's what I would have done, if I was feeling particularly vengeful.

In any case, I suspect V's mate and her children are doomed. Qarr's a bit of a wild card — he does have the power of the Lower Planes on his side, so he might have a way for him to empower V — but I don't know why he would help. He could take V's soul, I suppose, or convert him/her to evil, but I can't see how the soul of an elven wizard outweighs the life of an ancient black dragon.

Selene
2009-02-06, 03:11 AM
I am under the impression the Dragon has made a huge mistake. Her (yes. V is a female. I will die with that view, no matter what happens) supposed children have the wrong skin color, hair color, etc. I don't think elves are THAT far removed from humans. Complete backwardsness is rather unlikely. It seems to me that perhaps another family moved into the same house, or all houses in elf-land are the same. Occam's razor says they aren't her children.

You really think that? Even after Parent said that Other Parent would eventually come home after mastering the ways of magic?


I happen to agree with what SPoD said in another thread:

Gay male with adopted children. :smallsmile:

Very possible. They're both guy-shaped. Parent looks kind of girly, but then I know a few gay guys who look fairly girly, too.

Twice Bitten
2009-02-06, 03:15 AM
I don't like the idea of children being always divinely protected in comics or computer games (usually they don't exist even there, so nobody could yell "hey, they allow to kill artifical pixel-made children, hang them!"). In real world kids are killed sometimes, and the OOTS' world isn't also a fairy tale. Anyway, really evil dragons should do something really evil. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so evil, don't you think? By the way, they are 26. By human standards, they are only SHORT. And I don't think children are more "innocent" than average adult "lawful good" person. Hey, in OOTS thousands innocent people died during the siege of Azure city, and you didn't protest, because they were OLDER. (at least the ones which were shown dying). I can't imagine why murdering adults is thought to be something better than murdering children. Maybe I'm a pervert thinking that slaughtering adults is equally evil. I don't know why such an age discrimination is any better than racism.

(I expect to be lynched for this post.)

RowlieBowlie
2009-02-06, 03:16 AM
Rich you've done it again, you made my day ;-)

I loved the last few panels of V showing emotion (finally) He (yes I think he's male) was always my favourite, but now even more.

However I'm not really that worried about the kids.
Let's face it V would never marry someone who couldn't measure up to his skill in some way.

So I suppose <other parent> is some kind of high level ranger or druid (seeing the colour scheme and the hairdo) that's gonna give the dragon a little surprise.

Besides if his kids take after their pop then they won't be eaten that easily :smallsmile:

And lastly they live in a village of Elves right... What would you do if you saw a dragon suddenly swoop in. (imagine yourself to be a nameless NPC with classlevels off course).

Myou
2009-02-06, 03:17 AM
I hope it's some sort of trick or something, I wouldn't like to see the dragon killing V's children.

But on the other hand, I would be very disapointed if V now accepted Quarr's offer, which seems very likely now.

Lissou
2009-02-06, 03:17 AM
I love how not only is the mate gender-neutral, but the kids are a different skin tone, leading us to believe they might have been adopted, and therefore we don't know if V and their mate are the same gender or not.

Also, I've very, very sad about them dying. I especially like the mate.

Alair
2009-02-06, 03:18 AM
BTW, what the imp might be able to do is....

contact one of his buddies (via a spell) on the lower planes to stop the Ancient Black Dragon.

Said buddy could (presumably through the use of some sort of scrying) pop in at the V-man's house and save the day.

And all it would require is one singular immortal soul... :smallamused:

Presuming this isn't a load of codswallop of course. :smallamused: It's entirely possible that the ABD is yanking V's chain for some purpose (mental torture... is actually in league with the imp, plenty of possibilities.

I really doubt it, Qarr's small fry, the dragon's a more valuable ally, and V's soul by itself probably isn't valuable enough to pull whatever strings would need to be pulled to get in an Ancient Black Dragon's way.

I'm betting the kids get eaten.


Hipocritical dragon. It knows the pain of losing a child yet it is still evil enough to inflict that pain on another sentient being....... Evil to the 10th power

It's not hypocritical, it's just evil.

ElvenDeathMetal
2009-02-06, 03:18 AM
This little story arc, while showing a nice glimpse into V's background, seems a bit like GM smackdown on selfish player behavior. However, that could just be my irrelevant (and possibly unwise) opinion.

factotum
2009-02-06, 03:25 AM
I am under the impression the Dragon has made a huge mistake. Her (yes. V is a female. I will die with that view, no matter what happens) supposed children have the wrong skin color, hair color, etc. I don't think elves are THAT far removed from humans.

Nice theory, apart from the minor detail that they clearly refer to the Elf in the house with them as their parent, and she doesn't look remotely likely them either. Therefore, either Elves ARE that different to humans, or they're adopted.

Yuki Akuma
2009-02-06, 03:25 AM
I don't like the idea of children being always divinely protected in comics or computer games (usually they don't exist even there, so nobody could yell "hey, they allow to kill artifical pixel-made children, hang them!"). In real world kids are killed sometimes, and the OOTS' world isn't also a fairy tale. Anyway, really evil dragons should do something really evil. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so evil, don't you think? By the way, they are 26. By human standards, they are only SHORT. And I don't think children are more "innocent" than average adult "lawful good" person. Hey, in OOTS thousands innocent people died during the siege of Azure city, and you didn't protest, because they were OLDER. (at least the ones which were shown dying). I can't imagine why murdering adults is thought to be something better than murdering children. Maybe I'm a pervert thinking that slaughtering adults is equally evil. I don't know why such an age discrimination is any better than racism.

(I expect to be lynched for this post.)

...Noo, by human standards, they're still children. I seriously doubt any human would consider a twenty-six-year-old member of a species that becomes mature at one-hundred to be anything more than a child.

Serpentine
2009-02-06, 03:26 AM
Anyone else picked up on a potential "V's 4 words" here, yet? "I need your help."

Klose_the_Sith
2009-02-06, 03:27 AM
Am I like ... the only person who loves how incredibly hardcore this is? Bring them all down and start the blood flow!

(OOTS! OOTS! OOTS! OOTS!)

Underground
2009-02-06, 03:28 AM
Ouch.

If V had rested, she would have probably (a) hit with the first disintegrate and (b) hit with dimensional anchor.

She would be so much better off its not even funny ...

Pheldagriff
2009-02-06, 03:29 AM
first: "translated from elven" = pure win
second: no harm will be done to the children
third: the dragon could do something even more evil
he could kidnap the children and put them in some kind of trap that V accidently triggers on the mad revenge rampage, making V kill his/her children him/herself (then soulbinding and disappearing with them)

I'm rooting for the dragon, that is the reason why she won't succeed, I always root for the losers.

Firewind
2009-02-06, 03:29 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that all of this is probably a hallucination suffered by a trance-deprived V?

RMS Oceanic
2009-02-06, 03:29 AM
Good point, ElvenDeathMetal. It could be a take on railroading a character into behaving better, but the stakes are significantly upped.

I'm not gonna get into the "Four Words" debate, but I think we have a new frontrunner on who will "Pay a great cost to reunite the Order" and what that cost is.

This storyline has got me riveted. It's all pointing to BAD END + Dark Side for V, and yet there's a slim chance (s)he can be saved from that.


Am I the only one who thinks that all of this is probably a hallucination suffered by a trance-deprived V?

I don't think so. The Oracle said he had a Client flying in, so the Dragon talking about it makes sense.

Lunaya
2009-02-06, 03:34 AM
I am under the impression the Dragon has made a huge mistake. Her (yes. V is a female. I will die with that view, no matter what happens) supposed children have the wrong skin color, hair color, etc. I don't think elves are THAT far removed from humans. Complete backwardsness is rather unlikely. It seems to me that perhaps another family moved into the same house, or all houses in elf-land are the same. Occam's razor says they aren't her children.
Yeah, but I took a close look at the picture that one of the twins is holding. It sure looks a lot like Vaarsuvius.

Roc Ness
2009-02-06, 03:35 AM
V, cast "Sending"


He can, right?

Tola
2009-02-06, 03:36 AM
Hmm.

S/he doesn't trust his/her own people to handle that thing? I mean, the house is apparently deep in Elven territory. Can the Dragon move so fast that it can accomplish it's goals before it gets an Elven whooping?

Alair
2009-02-06, 03:40 AM
V, cast "Sending"


He can, right?

The casting time alone is longer than it's likely to take the dragon to do its job.


Hmm.

S/he doesn't trust his/her own people to handle that thing? I mean, the house is apparently deep in Elven territory. Can the Dragon move so fast that it can accomplish it's goals before it gets an Elven whooping?

If the dragon's been there invisibly twice already... How long does it take to appear, bite, bite, hat?

eilandesq
2009-02-06, 03:41 AM
Yikes. That dragon has a minimum of three character levels (base sorcerer level for a ancient black dragon is 11, and she just cast Greater Teleport, a 7th level spell requiring a minimum sorcerer level of 14). Making her minimum CR 22--and making her rather cowardly for not being willing to attack the fleet--even Xykon himself would have found her a formidable opponent: the fleet would have been an easy mark.

Hand-waving about V.'s lousy aim aside, that miss was rather implausible: a Huge dragon has a touch AC of 8. Even a clumsy commoner throwing a rock would have better than a 50% chance of pulling that off (the +30 natural armor, of course, makes rock throwing rather futile). Basically, Rich is telling us V. rolled a 1; possible, but really just rubbing salt in the wound.

fractal
2009-02-06, 03:41 AM
What kind of high level Wizard can't hit a dragon with a ranged touch attack? Figure BAB +7, Dex +1 or +2, total attack bonus of like +9? Huge dragon, no Dex, touch AC of like 8? Either V. rolled a 1 or else not trancing conveys some kind of huge penalty. Clearly not "efficient".

xv bones
2009-02-06, 03:43 AM
harcore.

hard booping core.

i desperately want the dragon to have a change of heart, but she's lawful evil, so that's not going to happen.

jesus.


"QARR...

I ACCEPT YOUR TERMS!"

FoE
2009-02-06, 03:44 AM
V, cast "Sending"?

It's a moot point, since there's not enough time. The dragon herself states it will only take a few minutes to slaughter the children and V's mate. That would suggest she's teleporting directly to the house; the warning would come too late.

V's "one chance" was that Dimensional Anchor. And she blew it.

Blanth
2009-02-06, 03:44 AM
I think this situation is going to turn out considerably better than most of us think. Perhaps Other Parent will provide some lengthy discourse to said angry dragon which may help stall for time?

And how much ankle biting can two flanking young elves cause on a large angry dragon?

David Argall
2009-02-06, 03:44 AM
Great comic.

I am now in the V is a male camp after seeing the mate.
V's mate seems more on the male side to me.

That dragon is casting Greater Teleport!! That's 7th level, and at least 14th level caster. Our writer does not believe in wimpy dragons.



Hipocritical dragon. It knows the pain of losing a child yet it is still evil enough to inflict that pain on another sentient being....... Evil to the 10th power
People, can we be spared the ethics of cute? We knew last time the dragon was going to do this, and only when we get a look at the kids do we get all heated up over it?



- couldn't the dragon find someone to cast (True?) Resurrection on her son? Or can dragons not be brought back to life?
A dragon can be brought back to life, but it is a common theory of the evil alignments that if you need to be brought back to life, you are a wimp that does not deserve to be brought back to live. The dragon may live by that theory.

An alternate idea for the evil is the joke line "I'd rather be mad!" She doesn't mind her own suffering as long as it serves as an excuse to make somebody else suffer more.

Dimensional Anchor - this is a minute/level spell. While it might well have several minutes to run, it is entirely reasonable it will expire with the next strip.

I'm of the deal with the devil and V's 4 words coming up theory.

Reclaimer
2009-02-06, 03:46 AM
Fatigue penalties exist. And they're cumulative. An elf that does not trance accrues them.

The dragon could easily have some sort of deflection bonus to AC from a passive spell, feat (At least three character levels means at least two new feats), or magical item.

RMS Oceanic
2009-02-06, 03:47 AM
It could be that the Dragon got to read the Spell Compendium and cast that spell that gives you a big bonus to your touch AC. According to the Giant's description of the Order vs Miko fight, V has no particular bonus on ranged touch attacks, so h** dexterity is 10 or 11.

Although, as Red Mage once noticed, there's a one in twenty chance that you will critically fail anything you attempt.

Mook
2009-02-06, 03:51 AM
Confused about the dragon's logic. At what point was it a good idea to leave your PRECIOUS, ONLY CHILD (strange for an ancient dragon) guarding a valuable item when you are entirely aware of the fact that dragons of all ages are adventurer targets?

Second, shouldn't Roy be taking the blame for this one, or the group as a whole? If they hadn't gone on the side quest to retrieve the starmetal (Not V's idea if I recall) then the encounter never would have happened. You can't blame V for defending himself from a dangerous opponent, especially when the rest of the party had just as much a hand in the whole thing.

Third, you're going to remove yourself from the Material Plane permanently? REALLY? You're an ancient black dragon with several centuries ahead of you AT LEAST, and dragons are some of the most fertile creatures around. Why didn't you take the time to have more children, or protect the one child better against adventurers if he was such a gem? Is going through all of this trouble to take revenge on an elf (who, I might add, is perfectly capable of remarrying/having more kids/reforging the bonds of parentship in his/her several centuries of remaining life), and then rendering the remainder of your existence a paranoia fest REALLY worth it? Because let's be honest, if you don't kill V now then he/she is GOING to kill you someday. Outsiders like to talk and make deals, and an ancient black dragon who would be out of place on any other plane IS NOT going to have an easy time hiding from a wizard with a grudge.

The dragon isn't being crafty. It's repeating the idiocy that cost it it's child in the first place. I look forward to seeing it make some sort of fatal error in the coming chapters, since it seems to be running purely on emotion in this whole affair.

Roc Ness
2009-02-06, 03:54 AM
Aww man, I hate it when people shoot my theories. Still, I should have remembered the 10 min casting time for Sending

Hey, I'm no fan of dnd so I know nothing of rules and stuff, but didn't belkar mention a spell that stops time?

RMS Oceanic
2009-02-06, 03:55 AM
It's a level 9 spell, "Time Stop", that gives you 12-30 seconds of uninterrupted action. Vaarsuvius is not high enough level to know it, though.

imp_fireball
2009-02-06, 03:58 AM
OK V, so what if a damneably arrogant dragon whom spontaneously appeared out of nowhere (and hell if you know how she located you in the first place) teleports away to slay your mate and children over some frilly little issue of you slaying her only child in self defense - bounce back, says I! No need to get all riled up, you're V, you eat this kinda stuff for breakfast.

Why, this is barely chewing the fat for that matter!

Think positive thoughts, because you're the hero and all that. Man, I wish were a hero. :P

Roc Ness
2009-02-06, 03:59 AM
If its level 9, shouldn't V be able to cast it? I thought he was meant to be level 13? :smallconfused:

JonestheSpy
2009-02-06, 03:59 AM
Brutal.

BTW, for the folks who think the way way way too much discussed 4WRDS are some going to be a plea for help from the imp, let me just point out that wanting to save one's children from death (followed by a literal fate worse then death) is very unlikely to count as "all the wrong reasons" by anyone's standards, even those of a snarky kobold.

Wandiya
2009-02-06, 04:09 AM
Maybe V has 1 disintegrate left and bounces it off the the atmosphere a couple of times to hit the dragon in the back killing it?:smalltongue::smallbiggrin: come on Giant leave the kids alone:smallbiggrin:

Sigmund
2009-02-06, 04:18 AM
Confused about the dragon's logic. At what point was it a good idea to leave your PRECIOUS, ONLY CHILD (strange for an ancient dragon) guarding a valuable item when you are entirely aware of the fact that dragons of all ages are adventurer targets?

Second, shouldn't Roy be taking the blame for this one, or the group as a whole? If they hadn't gone on the side quest to retrieve the starmetal (Not V's idea if I recall) then the encounter never would have happened. You can't blame V for defending himself from a dangerous opponent, especially when the rest of the party had just as much a hand in the whole thing.

Third, you're going to remove yourself from the Material Plane permanently? REALLY? You're an ancient black dragon with several centuries ahead of you AT LEAST, and dragons are some of the most fertile creatures around. Why didn't you take the time to have more children, or protect the one child better against adventurers if he was such a gem? Is going through all of this trouble to take revenge on an elf (who, I might add, is perfectly capable of remarrying/having more kids/reforging the bonds of parentship in his/her several centuries of remaining life), and then rendering the remainder of your existence a paranoia fest REALLY worth it? Because let's be honest, if you don't kill V now then he/she is GOING to kill you someday. Outsiders like to talk and make deals, and an ancient black dragon who would be out of place on any other plane IS NOT going to have an easy time hiding from a wizard with a grudge.

The dragon isn't being crafty. It's repeating the idiocy that cost it it's child in the first place. I look forward to seeing it make some sort of fatal error in the coming chapters, since it seems to be running purely on emotion in this whole affair.

I think the dragon plans to return to the island (another greater teleport) to gloat at V, then kill him. Otherwise, agreed on all counts.

Raging Gene Ray
2009-02-06, 04:18 AM
If its level 9, shouldn't V be able to cast it? I thought he was meant to be level 13? :smallconfused:

Spell Levels and Character Levels are not the same thing. A Wizard would have to be level 17 to cast level 9 spells.

Even then, V would have to have the spell prepared, and shi wouldn't be able to prepare it that morning unless shi had it either copied into hir spellbook or a scroll on hand.

FoE
2009-02-06, 04:18 AM
If its level 9, shouldn't V be able to cast it? I thought he was meant to be level 13? :smallconfused:

No, there's a difference between class levels and spell levels in D&D. V may be a 13th or 14-level wizard, but that doesn't qualify him/her to cast spells above ... seventh level, I think.

Like JonestheSpy, I don't think the Oracle predicted making a deal with Qarr to save her kids. I think that ship has sailed. Revenge, on the other hand ...

EtherealStrife
2009-02-06, 04:20 AM
We should all just stop guessing, so Giant has to come up with the ideas on his own. :smallwink:

Ikialev
2009-02-06, 04:24 AM
{Scrubbed}

Raging Gene Ray
2009-02-06, 04:26 AM
Like JonestheSpy, I don't think the Oracle predicted making a deal with Qarr to save her kids. I think that ship has sailed. Revenge, on the other hand ...

I could see that coming...in fact...

(Spoiler'd for Speculation)

V could make a deal with Qarr, grabbing a few scrolls/magic items for an unspecified price. V doesn't ask questions and teleports over to save hir family...only to find that hir mate and the town guard have already slain the dragon.
V stands there, dumbfounded, feeling a little shocked at how hir Ultimate Arcane Power wasn't needed...and then some sort of Devil claims the price V paid for it: hir childrens...and mate...and a couple of unlucky bystanders for good measure.

Lumenadducere
2009-02-06, 04:33 AM
...what. "Parent"? "Other Parent"? that doesn't make sense!
...little *******.
And. Gay Green Hair.?

Also! How can Dimensional Anchor stop that dragon from leaving? It's a DRAGON. It can FLY.

The whole "parent" and "other parent" thing is to keep the gender ambiguity. It replaces "mom" or "dad" so the audience still doesn't know what V is. And considering V's hair is purple I wouldn't say green hair is a stretch by this comic's terms.

I think this is one of my favorite comics in a while. I've liked these past couple of strips, they've helped to flesh out V a lot and I think that V is the last character that has yet to go through any meaningful development. Well, save Belkar, but I doubt he's going to get much more than his Shojo hallucination - it'd ruin his comedic value.

pearl jam
2009-02-06, 04:35 AM
I'm guessing the Oracle told the dragon precisely where to find V's family, so that it is highly unlikely that the family shown does not belong to V.

FujinAkari
2009-02-06, 04:35 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that all of this is probably a hallucination suffered by a trance-deprived V?

Yes you are.

As mentioned, the 'hallucination' ties in with the Oracle's comment about having a client flying in that wouldn't like ghostly mammals hanging about... information V didn't know, so would be quite difficult to hallucinate.

Not to mention that Qarr ALSO saw the dragon

Pepz
2009-02-06, 04:39 AM
Honestly guys,

the only way I see this not happening is V accepting a contract with Qarr, who will then call in some buddies to stop the dragon/save the children. Although he doesn't have any spells himself bringing in a highlevel non-evil (forgot V's alignment) elven caster should be special enough to get the Devil party started

Desouulm
2009-02-06, 04:45 AM
EDIT: wait, the Spell Levels/Class levels thing has already been addressed. My bad.

As to the comic (Since I think I should say something): I don't think V is delusional. I don't feel like the story wants to flow that way.

I really do like the drama in these latest strips. Kinda tough on the poor elf, though. He goes off to an island for a bit of peace and quiet to better concentrate on finding his lost companions, then this happens.

Solmage
2009-02-06, 04:55 AM
OMG .. I haven't posted in a long time, but I have to say ... poor V! If *THIS* doesn't drive him over the edge...

There is simply no way HE can rescue them, since he can't teleport. Even if he had a teleport item, his ability to fight that dragon proved to be ...lacking, and he'd still be missing even more spells than before.

I have a feeling I'm going to miss the old V that was so happy to have made friends with Elan after the wizard incident, and instead get a very vengeful, obsessed with power for revenge and to (supposedly) protect others from the same fate V.

His children's only chance is that the dragon scouting was flawed, and V's mate is a powerful Druid capable of hiding them or protecting them (Word of Recall, etc)

Lorin Wavine
2009-02-06, 04:58 AM
Interesting instalment I guess, doesn't really give anything more to go on then the previous but it does seem a deal with Qarr is quite possible.

Not sure on the rules but is it possible the anti-magic field freed Qarr? I remember in the last thread people said the cage thing shouldn't have vanished because of it so it seems quite possible (Haven't seen him after the anti-magic field).

Anyway it's very likely that the Dragon will take a few moments to basically speak to it's upcoming victims (I mean if you really wanted revenge why not say it's your parent/partners fault you're being devoured slowly and painfully with not a chance of coming back).

I don't see the children's death honestly but something has to happen for this switch on character focus to mean anything though which is either going to be an act from the Dragon or Qarr....

Veral
2009-02-06, 04:58 AM
Ouch.

If V had rested, she would have probably (a) hit with the first disintegrate and (b) hit with dimensional anchor.

She would be so much better off its not even funny ...

I'm right with you there: V's total lack of safety precautions whilst on the island somewhat belie her* great intellect. She, the most rational of all the order, seems to be heading headlong into more and more precarious situations in a haze of overmastering passion.

One might think that Burlew has sacrificed the integrity of his characterisation of Vaasuvius for the sake of a sensational plot line.
...except: the dream sequence in strip 623 covers this: V has a severe case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from the Battle of Azure City.

*The long hair; the apron: definitely an elf male

Grim ranger
2009-02-06, 05:01 AM
Well, I think V's current predicatement can be summed up in three words:

Totally owned. crud.

And as s/he has no chance in nine hells to get back in time, I think that V will have little drop to Darker and Edgier.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-06, 05:01 AM
Hmm... I see Rich belongs to the George R.R. Martin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire) School of Character Development :smallamused:

Well, if there was ever a set up for V's Start of Darkness, this is it. The question, though, is does ey do it?

If yes, then V ceases to be a PC and will likely be dropped from the story for awhile. Having a whole 'nother plotline floating around right now may be a bridge too far.

If no, then V's anguish will have been for naught, aside from forcing party unity by the most gruesome means available. Irony points accrue if Qarr is unable to assist V in time due to V's Dimensional Anchor, though.

My theory:
V will not give in the Qarr. Instead, Durkon will make a sudden appearance/contact in regards to Haley's message that will break V out of eirs emotional state.

This will cap off V's character development for the time being, while neatly gathering back together the party; just in time for the story to advance! V will likely not mention the death of eirs family, leaving tensions between emself and Elan which can be built upon later.

In time, V will find the Entity that grants Cosmic Power and use it to retrieve eirs family (possibly via time-travel, so that they aren't traumatized). Said expenditure will be too much for V, and likely result in eirs death.

Will it be right? Possibly in part, certainly not in its entirety. But guessing is fun, isn't it :smallbiggrin:

Elfanatic
2009-02-06, 05:08 AM
Holy sh%t...

Poor Vaarsuvius

Scion_of_Darkness
2009-02-06, 05:09 AM
While I'm not in favor of vengeance killing by any means, I hope the dragon gets some measure of recompense. She is just that damn awesome. I mean, commenting on V's aim just as she leaves? Nice touch.

Serpentine
2009-02-06, 05:11 AM
And. Gay Green Hair.?I'm gonna go ahead an assume you mean "happy".

On people whinging about the hair: First of all, two parents with brown hair can have children with blonde hair. Hell, one of my parents had blonde hair at my age and the other has black, while I have boring mid-brown. Furthermore, hair can change over time. Mine used to be blonde then darkened. It's not unreasonable to assume that the green-haired child might lighten as she ages, or that the red-head might get a bit more blue in it. Seriously, if you can accept purple or green hair at all, this isn't a big leap.

Scion_of_Darkness
2009-02-06, 05:20 AM
How utterly sick and twisted it would be if the dragon polymorphed and/or disguised herself with illusions to make herself look like V before attacking?



... I don't know why I thought of that.

Delgarde
2009-02-06, 05:20 AM
I doubt the kids but the mate might be some sort of druid. Based solely on green attire and salad for lunch.

Possibly, but more likely just the standard tree-hugger elf image... he or she is probably a woods elf...

Athaniar
2009-02-06, 05:20 AM
These strips are getting more and more awesome, something I wouldn't even have thought possible before.

And V's mate looks as ambiguous as V.

And about the black dragon: She has every right to be vengeful, but she's gone way too far now. I'm looking forward to see how this turns out. If the black dragon is just stopped without harming anyone, that wouldn't be right. I say V's mate should die protecting the children.

Delgarde
2009-02-06, 05:21 AM
I love the fact that V's Mate is just has androgynous as V. I thought something like that might happen.

Mate, and kids too. I personally think the partner looks slightly masculine, but I've already seen at least one other person post with an opposite impression.

RebelRogue
2009-02-06, 05:23 AM
Not sure on the rules but is it possible the anti-magic field freed Qarr?
No. AMF suppresses, but does not dispel magic.

Oslecamo
2009-02-06, 05:30 AM
Hmm... I see Rich belongs to the George R.R. Martin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire) School of Character Development :smallamused:


In my view, Rich simply belongs to the school of Dungeon MASTER.

V started to get funny ideas about going solo in the campaign, abandoning the rest of the team and trying to munchkin his way trough the rules(what part of "No, you can't contact Haley whitout epic magic" didn't he understand?)

So the DM sends him a mighty DMNPC (the dragon) who for some reason cares a lot for his son but leaves him alone protecting the family's hoard for several months, and can acess a super Oracle but can't acess a true ressurection scroll.

Thus, the dragon's main purpose is to tell V to stop being an idiot and go back to the team play so the campaign can move on instead of trying to "scry and screw" the BBEG.

Today V's family dies, wich luckily doesn't affect his character's powers. It's a big warning.

Tomorrow some even stronger monster parent shows up, and he won't be as mercifull. Unless V goes back to the team of course. The campaign's in the verge of colapsing as it is, with all the party separation. Belkar already learned his lesson about random slaughter. Now it's V's time to learn his/her.

Pandabear
2009-02-06, 05:30 AM
o_0 hahahahahahahahaha! :smallbiggrin: Translated from Elven.. priceless :smallbiggrin:

Lord Vukodlak
2009-02-06, 05:33 AM
eilandesq, an ancient black dragon with three levels in sorcerer dies just about as quickly as an ancient black dragon with no class levels. The extra spell levels and 3d4+con to hp don't make it as powerful as standard great wyrm black. Its CR is one higher then normal. A party equipped to handle an actually CR 22 dragon would wipe the floor with her. This of course assumes the dragon wasn't using a scroll of greater teleport.

Possible ways for V to save hir mate.
Hmm I can't recall V's restricted schools, however. Assuming Qarr could get hir to the dragon V may have one last spell capable of defeating it. Baleful Polymorph 5th level.

Remember Qarr's old boss Mr. Giant Demon now a statue?
Well if V was to make the right deal with Qarr V could free said demon and Qarr convinces him to go fight the dragon.

Delgarde
2009-02-06, 05:35 AM
Oh damn. V's really getting unlucky with attack rolls today.

The dragon made comments to the effect of trance-deprivation ruining V's aim - I would conclude the GM is imposing some hefty action penalties. I don't recall if there are official rules for extreme sleep deprivation, but in this case at least, there appears to be both penalties to attack (and probably other actions) and some non-lethal damage (going by V's appearance).

Serpentine
2009-02-06, 05:37 AM
I don't normally like making predictions about these things, but I feel like throwing my hat in on this one.
I just went back and reviewed the oracle - "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." So: Right four words: "I need your help". Right being: Durkon. Right time: Now. Wrong reasons: To save their family.
Problems: I must admit I don't really see how "now" is the right time, as opposed to "a week or months ago". Also saving their family doesn't seem like a terrible reason... unless it's more of a matter of pride. Which would suck, cuz I'm still on the "V is still good" side of things. Also the use of the word "being" is pretty suspicious. Makes Qaal more likely.

Lyinginbedmon
2009-02-06, 05:39 AM
V's mate looks definitively male to me, judging on the torso visible behind the apron. It's a straight-lined square, which is the torso design of males.

So either V is female or Elves are open to same-sex relationships.

As for the big demon, I think he'll be nonplussed at least for the engraving in his chest.

Scion_of_Darkness
2009-02-06, 05:41 AM
Remember Qarr's old boss Mr. Giant Demon now a statue?
Well if V was to make the right deal with Qarr V could free said demon and Qarr convinces him to go fight the dragon.

If so, then that demon would have a few embarrassing scars on his chest. :smalltongue:

dogmac
2009-02-06, 05:42 AM
V, you had better work out those 4 words pretty quickly, mate!

As a mother, can I just say "NOOOOOOOO!!"

Delgarde
2009-02-06, 05:45 AM
Hmm.

S/he doesn't trust his/her own people to handle that thing? I mean, the house is apparently deep in Elven territory. Can the Dragon move so fast that it can accomplish it's goals before it gets an Elven whooping?

Read it again. First, the dragon said "I am going to teleport there directly", then it cast Greater Teleport and vanished. Oh, yes - it can move fast enough.

Oslecamo
2009-02-06, 05:45 AM
The dragon made comments to the effect of trance-deprivation ruining V's aim - I would conclude the GM is imposing some hefty action penalties. I don't recall if there are official rules for extreme sleep deprivation, but in this case at least, there appears to be both penalties to attack (and probably other actions) and some non-lethal damage (going by V's appearance).

It' a DMNPC sent to force V to go back to the party and stop trying to munchkin his way trough the rules. Her touch AC is OVER 9000!!!!

Delgarde
2009-02-06, 05:51 AM
I'm right with you there: V's total lack of safety precautions whilst on the island somewhat belie her* great intellect. She, the most rational of all the order, seems to be heading headlong into more and more precarious situations in a haze of overmastering passion.

Great intellect, being the key word. Vaarsuvius is indeed possessed of a great intellect. But Intelligence in D&D is all about powers of reasoning and memory, not about good judgement. Wisdom is the ability required in order to possess powers of observation and judgement, and really, Vaarsuvius hasn't exactly been a role model for such powers - like most Evokers, he or she tends to be of a nuke-it first, ask questions later philosophy.

Delgarde
2009-02-06, 05:58 AM
A party equipped to handle an actually CR 22 dragon would wipe the floor with her. This of course assumes the dragon wasn't using a scroll of greater teleport.

Just one question - how many parties do you think there are that are equipped to handle a CR22 dragon? Particularly one that's just appeared with no warning in the peaceful little village.

"Help!", scream the villagers. "Sorry, just wait a moment while we put our armor on", say the combat types. "Oooh, tasty unarmored fighters!", says the dragon.

sdeath
2009-02-06, 05:59 AM
(a) Your forums are still slow. >;->

(b) I enjoy the comic greatly. I have to say that it is one of the best-done Web comics out there, of which I have seen many.

(c) After reading the discussion, my guesses are as follows:

[1] Vaarsuvius isn't gonna get there in time, or will get there just in time to see the dragon finishing the task without being able to do squat about it.

[2] HOWEVER, in order for the dragon's evil plot to succeed, a lot of things have to happen just so. Dragon has to get to V's family (certain), eat them (highly probable), bind them (also highly probable), then disappear *without anybody being able to follow her or tell V where she went*. That last bit is key. And who are we forgetting in this whole episode? Why, Sir Greenhilt, and the Oracle, of course. Now, recall a couple of things: the Oracle is, as they say in France, in le merde grande, because he Dismissed Roy past the memory charm surrounding Happy Valley. Roy remembers EVERYTHING. And Roy will be paying him a visit once he gets resurrected, which, unless my prognostication engine is broken, is due to happen Real Soon Now.

Also happening Real Soon Now, unless I miss my guess, is the reuniting of Durkon and Elan with Haley and Belkar. (Possibly V will try to go back to them for help.) When they all get back together, V will have a story to tell about the dragon - which will guilt them (except Belkar) and/or greed them (especially Haley) into pursuing the dragon, since they all owned a piece of the original deed that triggered the revenge killing of V's family - and it will involve the Oracle, and then it will be time for a side quest. And the Oracle is gonna be one hurting little unit once Stabby the Eighth Dwarf, a grief-stricken V, and an irate Roy get through with him. That dragon will be found IMMEDIATELY, and will likewise be one hurting little unit, once V and the gang gets through with her.

I'm having tantalizing images of the Oracle's prediction that Belkar would bite the big one being satisfied due to his being made to look like Belkar - Major Image? - and then fed to the dragon. Remember that the Oracle obviously doesn't have a perfect grasp of the future, since otherwise, he wouldn't have Dismissed Roy.

[3] Qarr can't help him. Maybe Qarr could summon someone/thing who could, though.

[4] V may get "turned" in the meantime, but I don't know. I think V's too popular (and too smart) to get the Anakin Skywalker treatment.

Just my $0.02. Can't wait to see the next strip.

Zbyhnev
2009-02-06, 06:00 AM
Well, I was a little confused by the elven genders involved, but then I saw this video and it shed light on everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpHJrD-Zk9k

Sleffie
2009-02-06, 06:01 AM
Thank you, Giant.




To everybody else, in the replies I've read I've seen a lot of anger directed at the Dragon and sentiment for V. Lots of reasons why the dragon is wrong and evil and definitely not "one of us".

I'd earlier admire the justice the dragon is dealing out. Too bad revenge generally results in more revenge potential. V pretty much "had it coming". All of the Order of the Stick get their share of nastiness, its not equal (since it never is), but they still get a piece.

And to be honest, if the Order of the Stick had a flag at the top, it'd be red and they'd wave it around maniacally at the Bulls of Revenge whose eyes and hooves were already twitching the moment the flag appeared at the horizon.(1)

They're mean evil bastards, the entire lot of them. But they have it pretty good so who wouldn't want to be them?

I wait for the day when the "white squishy squid-like thingies that land onto all the time"(2) muster their forces and destroy all sentient beings that fall under "adventurer", leaving all the "monsters" behind. :)

But if it never comes, I'll just wait to see what the Giant comes up with. He is a master storyteller.



(1) Then the Stick moves to the fattest looking bull, kills it and gorges on its body. Most bulls don't act, some do, but deep inside they all feel the same: They killed one of Us.(3)

(2) To whoever posts "Do you mean <insert name here>". Yes, thank you! :)

(3) But what they think is: "If only I'd been coloured red like that guy Dave from up the meadow said he saw. He has WINGS!"(4)

(4) Whilst the colour red doesn't actually have more effect on wild bulls than any other colour, we all like to believe it does. So it does. ;)

enarch3t
2009-02-06, 06:01 AM
This is why the comic needs more Belkar.

Wow, just wow. That dragon is one cold b*tch. Sorry V., looks like your story arch ends worse than Belkar's.

Jural
2009-02-06, 06:08 AM
Well, after all is said and done, I can finally imagine what Qarr may be able to offer V

Qarr can talk the giant stone devil into helping V after V turns him back into flesh... Maybe that creature could take on the dragon, or aid V...

Just a shot in the dark there- apologies if it's been debated ad nauseum on these forums already

Person1123
2009-02-06, 06:18 AM
Noooo!

The little kiddies are so cute:smallfrown:

This is when a big deus ex machina happens. I hope.

Adeptus
2009-02-06, 06:28 AM
Oooooh great comic! :elan:

I love how the dragon is speaking V's language with the very specific thaumaturgical plan.

V's spouse and kids are soooo cute too. :smallsmile:

Raging Gene Ray
2009-02-06, 06:28 AM
(2) To whoever posts "Do you mean <insert name here>". Yes, thank you! :)


They're called the Flumphs and they were widely considered the stupidest looking monster in all of Second Edition. They were also one of the Lawful Good monsters, so they probably wouldn't be big on ridding every single adventurer from existence. They'd probably be okay with an apology and a cure spell whenever an adventurer uses them as a safety net.

ref
2009-02-06, 06:39 AM
The Giant is clever. He can justify "Parent" and "Other Parent" saying that Elvish has no words for "Mom" or "Dad". The skin tones are just there to throw confusion. I'd say the twins are in trouble.

And here's Vaarsuvius' baptism-by-fire, so to speak. For the confusion someone had in page 4 about a level 9 spell and a level 13 character, I suggest this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) strip.

Lord Vukodlak
2009-02-06, 06:41 AM
Just one question - how many parties do you think there are that are equipped to handle a CR22 dragon? Particularly one that's just appeared with no warning in the peaceful little village.

"Help!", scream the villagers. "Sorry, just wait a moment while we put our armor on", say the combat types. "Oooh, tasty unarmored fighters!", says the dragon.

That has nothing to do with my point. I was responding to a post that said a dragon that powerful would have no fear of attacking the fleet. My point was adding 3 class levels to an ancient black dragon DOES NOT really effect how challenging it is. It had nothing to do with how easily THAT dragon would be overcome in the comic.

Try quoting the entire paragraph, to you criticize and entire thought and not just half of one.

Muzzafar
2009-02-06, 06:46 AM
I don't like the idea of children being always divinely protected in comics or computer games (usually they don't exist even there, so nobody could yell "hey, they allow to kill artifical pixel-made children, hang them!"). In real world kids are killed sometimes, and the OOTS' world isn't also a fairy tale. Anyway, really evil dragons should do something really evil. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so evil, don't you think? By the way, they are 26. By human standards, they are only SHORT. And I don't think children are more "innocent" than average adult "lawful good" person. Hey, in OOTS thousands innocent people died during the siege of Azure city, and you didn't protest, because they were OLDER. (at least the ones which were shown dying). I can't imagine why murdering adults is thought to be something better than murdering children. Maybe I'm a pervert thinking that slaughtering adults is equally evil. I don't know why such an age discrimination is any better than racism.
I think everybody went mad about the prospect of V's children dying not because they are children (although that played a part too), but primarily because they are children we now know.
We know there are hundreds and thousands of anonymous children dying every day in Africa and Asia, but that does not break our hearts until we see a nice color picture of one child dying.
We might heard on the news that some kid was run over by a car and most of us will just say "Oh well, **** happens! Bad luck!", but when we learn that he was our neighbor's son then we go "Oh my God! I can't believe it happened!". It's because we connect.
(It's not necessarily bad - would it be otherwise all of us would die tomorrow of broken heart.)
It's all about Red shirts and Blue Shirts and Mauve shirts.
P.S.: But yes, people care for children dying more than they care for adults dying. (I don't think it has to do with innocence though.):smallannoyed: Just a fact of life.

Graymayre
2009-02-06, 06:46 AM
I believe that elves are like frogs, they change their gender based on societal and enviromental situations.

If I was pressured, I would say that V is Female, due to "her" mate's lack of curves.

Lemarc
2009-02-06, 07:07 AM
Well, after all is said and done, I can finally imagine what Qarr may be able to offer V

Qarr can talk the giant stone devil into helping V after V turns him back into flesh... Maybe that creature could take on the dragon, or aid V...

Just a shot in the dark there- apologies if it's been debated ad nauseum on these forums already

The following is based of 1st and 2nd edition information, but assuming the same holds true for 3rd edition: Qarr, as a fiend, is able to use teleport without error at will, an unlimited number of times. The spell description for teleport allows the caster to take 250 pounds (e.g. 110 kg) along with them, not including bonuses for level. If V gives Qarr a description of her home, Qarr can teleport there and back multiple times in the space of a few rounds, taking the children and V's husband along with him, and depositing them in a safe place without the dragon knowing their whereabouts.
Assuming the above is true of 3rd edition imps as well, and that V places a higher value on her children's souls than her own, she should accept Qarr's deal.

T-O-E
2009-02-06, 07:07 AM
Informative. The next installment will be interesting.

Zbyhnev
2009-02-06, 07:09 AM
Then again, V isn't exactly a voluptous curvy babe either. I think anybody making any definitive judgements about either V or it's mate based on visual clues is doing an exemplary case of wishful thinking. The genders are purposefully ambiguous, and that's it.

lord_khaine
2009-02-06, 07:32 AM
A dragon can be brought back to life, but it is a common theory of the evil alignments that if you need to be brought back to life, you are a wimp that does not deserve to be brought back to live. The dragon may live by that theory
a much more likely explanation is that the dragon did not know any lv 17 clerics, those are pretty rare, and we dont even know if Redcloak, the high priest of the Dark one, is that powerfull.


That has nothing to do with my point. I was responding to a post that said a dragon that powerful would have no fear of attacking the fleet. My point was adding 3 class levels to an ancient black dragon DOES NOT really effect how challenging it is. It had nothing to do with how easily THAT dragon would be overcome in the comic.

but im ready to challenge that point, adding 3 levels of sorcerer does make a huge difference, giving the dragon 2 additionel spell levels, and teaching it potent buffs like antimagic field.

Lyinginbedmon
2009-02-06, 07:36 AM
The following is based of 1st and 2nd edition information, but assuming the same holds true for 3rd edition: Qarr, as a fiend, is able to use teleport without error at will, an unlimited number of times. The spell description for teleport allows the caster to take 250 pounds (e.g. 110 kg) along with them, not including bonuses for level. If V gives Qarr a description of her home, Qarr can teleport there and back multiple times in the space of a few rounds, taking the children and V's husband along with him, and depositing them in a safe place without the dragon knowing their whereabouts.
Assuming the above is true of 3rd edition imps as well, and that V places a higher value on her children's souls than her own, she should accept Qarr's deal.

If he's an Imp, he has no teleport as of 3.5E. He's most likely an Imp because we've seen him use Suggestion already, which is an Imp spell-like ability, though there's still a few things about him that don't add up if we neglect the possibility of class levels.

If he's a Quasit, he still has no teleport as of 3.5E.

Puppeteer
2009-02-06, 07:52 AM
Well, it seems the newest comic almost explained V's sex this time.
V's mate body shape (straight back) indicates he is a male.
So the question now is: is V a female or a gay male with adopted children?
I'm about to linger over the second option.

Great comic as always.

Ninja
2009-02-06, 08:03 AM
heh..... great comic....

whatchamacallit
2009-02-06, 08:15 AM
Surprise! The 26-year-old elven children are 14th level ranger/casters. That'll be a shock for the dragon.

Elven kindergarten- <we teach your kids how to be true elves! For the entire decade they are with us>

Tom90deg
2009-02-06, 08:40 AM
Wow, great few comics over the past few days :) Great stuff!

On that note, I'd like to offer my prediction for what may happen.

Simply, nothing. V will offer anything to Qu'ar to get home, and he'll find his mate and children surprised to see him, but confused. The Dragon will be nowhere to be found, save, perhaps, a letter on the door saying something to the effect, "I could of, but I'm better than you."

No matter what, I can't WAIT to see what happens!

Carteeg_Struve
2009-02-06, 09:04 AM
Nice nice set up.

Although I can't see V's mate as a male with that design. She looks far too female for me to think otherwise.

Then again, I tend to lean towards V being male by default with a 30% change of me being wrong.

So, my internal mind has decided:
V - male
V's mate - female
kids - adopted

Although I'm also willing to believe at this point:
V- female
V's mate - female
kids - adopted (or related to only one of the parents)


I reserve the right to be completely wrong or understand that these matters will be eternally undecided... at which point I'll just quietly stick to my own internal opinions. :smallbiggrin:

pendell
2009-02-06, 09:09 AM
...

BOOOO .

So the dragon just teleported away, where presumably it will eat V's children and carry out the vengeance promised?

So now we're eating people's children feet-first, with no apparent way to stop it?

I sincerely hope another update follows quickly, because as far as I'm concerned this is a low point for this comic.

There was nothing funny about this comic. Nothing at all.

I noticed the attempted joke when V missed with dimensional anchor (I didn't know that spell had to be aimed, BTW) ... but when this is your one chance to save the lives of your children. There is NOTHING funny about a miss. Nothing at all.


Probably just as well V missed, though. If ze had hit, the dragon would have simply killed and eaten zir, waited until the anchor wore off, then proceeded with vengeance. V could not have gained zir children more than a day or two of survival


I am very close to giving up reading entirely. But I won't, yet.


Because the dragon hasn't actually killed the kids, yet. The Giant has shown a genius at turning the most awful tragedies (such as the mass-martyrdom of the Sapphire Guard) into something good.

*Sigh* A pity. Up until this moment this dragon was my favorite villain in the comic.

1) She had a reason for doing what she did.
2) She carefully and patiently gathered intelligence on her quarry.
3) She carefully prepared for the meeting, taking exactly the spells she would need.
4) She waited until the absolute most optimal moment, THEN struck hard and fast.

The black dragon is undoubtedly the most capable and skilled villain we've seen in the comic yet.

Then she threw it all away with a typical classic bond-villain monologue. She told V exactly what she was going to do and then, having done so, *left V alive*.

Add this one to the Evil Overlord list: Never leave a high-level magic-user enemy alive.

Either reconcile, or kill. But now V has every motivation to hunt her through every plane of existence, wherever she hides. Even if V eschews vengence, Ze will still want the souls of zir children back.

If I were V, I would accept lichdom or something like, if that was necessary, and continue my quest to find her through all eternity if necesary. Through every plane.

Foolish dragon. She's made a bad enemy, threatened zir children, and left zir alive. Talk about arrogance.

If it were me, V's children would already have been dead and bound before the strip ever started.

Or I could have killed V, soul bound zir soul, then taken zir along and forced zir to watch helplessly as I wreaked the described vengeance.

But you do NOT leave a magic user alive and angry behind you. One of the two conditions must be cured. That arrogance will prove costly, I suspect.

Hope another update follows soon. I do NOT want to be left with the image of dragon eating children over the weekend.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Mauve Shirt
2009-02-06, 09:15 AM
Booo, the dragon's plan is an awful one. :smallfrown: Well, awful as in bad for V.
Loved the angrogenous mate and children using "Other parent", though it further cements my perception of V as male.

Brian P., how can you be disappointed that the dragon left V alive when that is really the children's only chance of survival? He is a good guy.

malakim2099
2009-02-06, 09:21 AM
Lol: "Parent, do you think other parent will return home soon"


Anyway, maybe the children will roll nat 20s on their saves vs soul bind.

it COULD happen =/

Apparently V rolled a natural 1 to hit with a touch ranged attack, so it could.

I have a sinking feeling though...

If the kids do get soul bound/killed? I suspect the firestorm in the forums over the bouncing ball will be a spark in comparison. :smallwink:

(And to those saying, "Well, Mama Dragon is perfectly right to do this..." I think 1. You didn't read how the fight with the dragon developed in the Forest in the first place and 2. You fail to comprehend the difference between justice and revenge.)

pendell
2009-02-06, 09:37 AM
Brian P., how can you be disappointed that the dragon left V alive when that is really the children's only chance of survival? He is a good guy.

In terms of saving the lives of V's kids, I'm delighted the dragon was that stupid.

From a more tactical perspective, I'm disappointed that the dragon hit all the high points, carrying off the best planned and executed encounter of the entire story, then goes all Bond villain at the end.

Two things offend me, really: Cruelty to innocents and tactical stupidity. The dragon demonstrates both. Hopefully, #2 may undo #1. If not ... I can forgive a stupid villain. Killing the cute kids? I've forgiven OOTS a lot and cut it a lot of slack, but that's asking a bit much.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Rowan Arquest
2009-02-06, 09:52 AM
I think the dragon doing nothing is a good theory. Right now, V thinks that vir children and possibly vir mate are about to be killed. V can't cast teleport, V can't access someone who can cast teleport, and getting there would take a very long time even with overland flight. The dragon might just want V to go completely insane, because if being unable to help the soldiers in Azure City using magic has made it impossible to for V to trance, imagine what would happen to V is this happens... complete insanity... and no will save.

Axl_Rose
2009-02-06, 09:57 AM
NOT THE KIDS!!!! Please don't bump the kids! They are so cute and innocent!

Don't listen to him, Rich. Bump the kids! BUMP the KIDS!



This is when a big deus ex machina happens. I hope.

Are you serious? Look, tragedy is not infrequent in a good story.

I'd MUCH rather have the dragon take his revenge than to see some non-sensical, retarded "Oh the dragon was just a figment of his imagination" kind of resolution.


Altho V uttering his 4 words right about now would probably sound right.

Jan Mattys
2009-02-06, 10:01 AM
In terms of saving the lives of V's kids, I'm delighted the dragon was that stupid.

From a more tactical perspective, I'm disappointed that the dragon hit all the high points, carrying off the best planned and executed encounter of the entire story, then goes all Bond villain at the end.

Two things offend me, really: Cruelty to innocents and tactical stupidity. The dragon demonstrates both. Hopefully, #2 may undo #1. If not ... I can forgive a stupid villain. Killing the cute kids? I've forgiven OOTS a lot and cut it a lot of slack, but that's asking a bit much.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

How about taking a comic for what a comic is worth, and not taking it personal? ;)

JoseB
2009-02-06, 10:11 AM
Well, in my opinion killing the cute kids and stealing their souls is absolutely something that the dragon would do. Black dragon, terribly evil, bent on revenge, adept at magic, and all that.

Also (in my opinion) from a storytelling point of view there is nothing more powerful to push V towards "action" of some sort. It makes sense (again, in my opinion) when seen from that angle.

All in all, I think that the development makes sense. It is not a happy development; on the contrary, it is a very cruel one. But I think that it makes sense from a narrative standpoint. I don't see it as gratuitous (sp?)

I will keep reading, even though I will be sitting on (metaphorical) hot coals the whole time... But I will keep reading.

Just my 2 eurocent!

The_Void
2009-02-06, 10:27 AM
Wow, great few comics over the past few days :) Great stuff!

On that note, I'd like to offer my prediction for what may happen.

Simply, nothing. V will offer anything to Qu'ar to get home, and he'll find his mate and children surprised to see him, but confused. The Dragon will be nowhere to be found, save, perhaps, a letter on the door saying something to the effect, "I could of, but I'm better than you."

No matter what, I can't WAIT to see what happens!

I really, really like that theory, and really hope it happens. In a way, it's even more cruel, because V will know that a tragedy really could have happened, and he wouldn't be able to do anything about it. And deep down, V will know that he's even worse than the dragon. It finishes off the sub-plot, avoids killing any children, and still has the same emotional resonance and character development. Perfect. :-)

HOLEkevin
2009-02-06, 11:10 AM
And the moral is… always go to bed on time, or terrible things will happen to you!

(Other Parent! Snicker!)

Feirgon
2009-02-06, 11:13 AM
I actually get the sense that the dragon is going to follow V. Like it actually doesn't knowwhere V's children live.

So all those theories about V damning V's soul to get back home would be even more punctuated by the fact the V lead the dragon right to V's home essentially damning the whole family.

In any case, I am on the edge of my seat. :smallcool:

Snake-Aes
2009-02-06, 11:14 AM
...

BOOOO .

So the dragon just teleported away, where presumably it will eat V's children and carry out the vengeance promised?

So now we're eating people's children feet-first, with no apparent way to stop it?

I sincerely hope another update follows quickly, because as far as I'm concerned this is a low point for this comic.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Above being a comedy, this is a story being told.
If nothing bad enough ever happens to the characters..
If the whole world seems to change but never on a personal level to them...
When they never have to face DIRE consequences for not being careful when they know what they put themselves into...

Then why are we hearing this story at all? If they don't have consequences to face, then you can tell that they WILL live, they WILL beat the bad guys, and the extremely boring "And everything is back to how it was" ending will come.

Carnivorous_Bea
2009-02-06, 11:19 AM
Here are a few random thoughts:

1. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would think the dragon is still justified at this point, or that her actions aren't pure evil. :smalleek: Killing someone who had nothing to do with what was done to you as an act of revenge? Sounds like pure terrorism to me. "Yes, you were born in this village, O enemy, so I'm going to kill all the people there, who of course have nothing to do with your actions." The Giant's showing this dragon to be evil -- not a relativistic "oh, they have a different perspective" b.s. -- but evil, in the sense of, "I do things that can't remotely be justified, because I enjoy it, and because I'm strong enough not to be prevented."

2. And that being the case, IMO V was right to kill the first dragon as well. Just because the young adult dragon wasn't murdering and torturing at that moment doesn't mean that he was a sweet and gentle flower-picker beset by big mean adventurers who just hated him because he's a dragon -- it suggests that he's just like good ol' mom and probably already had more horrors to his 'record' than a WWII war criminal.

3. However, I suspect that the dragon may be in for a surprise, since we haven't yet seen what Mrs. V is capable of. :smallamused: After all, the dragon seems to have everything too pat -- and is really playing up the "I'm unbeatable, I'm perfect" stuff. Her hubris beats V's most pompous moments by a mile -- and if that isn't begging for a fall, then I've never heard the word "nemesis" before (and yes, there is a Classical reference mixed into that statement). :smallwink:

That said , I'm rooting for Family Elf to win anyway! :smallsmile: Go, elves!!!!

4. Note that the elvish words are surrounded by brackets, <like this>. That shows they're being translated -- and the dragon was unable to translate the words for "mom" and "dad," and just understood that there were words for two kinds of parents ("Parent" and "Other Parent"). Hilarious, really.:smallbiggrin:

5. I still think that V is "dad," and "Parent" is "mom."

jafar
2009-02-06, 11:22 AM
Well, that IS a bummer. :smalleek: I guess I can see one way out...A trip to the ....DARK side! :smallfurious: Where is that imp after all? Can V. take back all those nasty things s/he said about you? Come back little imp! Take me to the Emperor..I mean your dark master! And quick.

Snake-Aes
2009-02-06, 11:24 AM
I don't think anyone questions that the dragon is evil, and will kill V's family just because she can so she can inflict on him the same pain that V inflicted on her with the teenager death. The current trend of questioning is calling her a hypocrite, which is wrong too, since that dragon stands for it's word so far.

Also, that dragon is quite careful. Spied on the house for a while, spied on V for a while.. I'm sure it's not gonna be surprised easily.

maxon
2009-02-06, 11:28 AM
Wow - well, props to those forumites who sympathised with the dragon [/sarcasm]


Gotta say, though ... the four words are probably not coming up soon. Because V has to say them "for all the wrong reasons," and unless V's in agony over something other than the imminent death of his mate and soul binding of his kids, anything he's going to say will be for the right reasons (namely, to save his family).

Yes, I agree.

Aron Times
2009-02-06, 11:35 AM
Let me be the first to say it:

TRIPLE KILL!!! :smallbiggrin:

I wonder what kind of loot V's family will drop...

St. Salieri
2009-02-06, 11:50 AM
Wow. This comic teaches us something very important about the OotS world.

Even the Kobold Oracle's powers of divination are not strong enough to determine elves' gender. :smalleek: (And the elven language itself doesn't seem to distinguish between parents based on gender. Maybe it's a genderless language?)

If only the elves could harness this power to make a powerful anti-divination abjuration. (Hm...Dorukan spent some time with elves (albeit a non-ambiguously-gendered one). Perhaps that was the inspiration for his "cloister" spell...)

Snake-Aes
2009-02-06, 12:03 PM
Let me be the first to say it:

TRIPLE KILL!!! :smallbiggrin:

I wonder what kind of loot V's family will drop...

"Family Picture", "Elfskin Hat" and "child bone's drumsticks". Mama dragon will make V a drums set made with those.

Rakim Avishot
2009-02-06, 12:07 PM
Anyone seen "Coraline"?

"Other Mother":smallamused:

nybbler
2009-02-06, 12:08 PM
Dimensional Anchor? That was pretty much desperation. Even if V had hit:

V: Dimensional Anchor!

Dragon (continuing to fly away): Darn you, Vaarsuvius, you have delayed my revenge by 10 minutes. I will now make your family's deaths even more gruesome and painful.

Silverraptor
2009-02-06, 12:32 PM
i dont know why you are acting as if V already has kids... if V has... please tell me how u know!
And i dont know why some of you say Her and some Him... its V for now! :D unless u got the origins of PC... which im about to get!! :D Thanks Rich!

You know people that V's gender is unambigous. In the Origins of PC's he spills ink over his gender on his job report. Plus many of my friends have pony tails, so this doesn't make V's mate a girl.

Rotipher
2009-02-06, 12:37 PM
I actually get the sense that the dragon is going to follow V. Like it actually doesn't knowwhere V's children live.

Mama Dragon described V's house. She knows.

Rotipher
2009-02-06, 12:41 PM
\You're an ancient black dragon with several centuries ahead of you AT LEAST, and dragons are some of the most fertile creatures around.


At least according to Draconomicon, a female dragon ceases to be fertile when she's Old. Even if Mama Dragon lives to be ten thousand, she'll never have any more children.

motub
2009-02-06, 12:54 PM
Here are a few random thoughts:

1. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would think the dragon is still justified at this point, or that her actions aren't pure evil.
If the dragon's actions were just(ified/ifiable), they wouldn't be evil, now would they?

Isn't "unjust" the very definition of "evil", as "just" is the definition of good?

However, that doesn't mean that the dragon doesn't have a point in lawful/balance terms (she is not chaotic evil, doing evil for the joy of doing evil, nor is she neutral evil, doing evil for her own aggrandizement).

And V never acknowledged her underlying issue at all, or showed any remorse, or even begged for her family's life ("They've done you no harm--Take me, instead!"). In other words, V made no effort to rebalance the situation (not that it necessarily would have changed anything, but it's worth a try), and therefore the situation is very much even more likely to spiral down into an extreme (evil) path. For everybody involved.

I mean, in all this outrage over the possible revenge killing of V's kids, no one has even touched on the fact that V did not have to kill the dragon child; they were there for the starmetal, which they could have taken easily while the dragon child was still under suggestion of the lizard (since the lizard told the dragon child to tell the party to wait until morning when Durkon could break the Polymorph spell, V could have just as easily told the dragon to tell the party where the starmetal was, and to sit quietly while they took it and left. Being a child and likely having been told not to wander far by its mother, there would have been a fair chance that it would not have been willing to chase them after the spell wore off, especially if they didn't take anything else but the starmetal, which the dragons apparently didn't care that much about anyway).

But no, for some reason we (the party) thought it was a good idea to sit around in a cave with a spell-mazed dragon child, until V could be turned back into a mage capable of disintegrating the dragon child for no particular reason but to steal everything, not just the starmetal.

That wasn't particularly "just" either, but... because the dragon is a dragon, and the party is the party, sure, that's just fine.

Well, you know, I'm not really happy with that logic either (especially since it results in the death of the dragon child for no better reason than the possible probable death of V's children). But an Ancient Black Dragon is evil, who's going to listen to her? There is no "authority" that's going to make the party suffer on her behalf as "just recompense" for their actions.

So she's taking unjust recompense. Because she is, after all, evil.

But that doesn't mean she doesn't have a valid complaint.

And as such, I wait with great interest to see what happens next. I don't want anyone else to die, but it may be that the scales can only be balanced with blood. Or the scales may go beyond any hope of balance.

I'm very much on tenterhooks.

JVWest
2009-02-06, 12:57 PM
The dragon must die.

B.I.T.T.
2009-02-06, 01:10 PM
:smalleek:

SoC175
2009-02-06, 01:11 PM
I'm assuming V will immediately dismiss Quarr's dimensonal anchor and agree to anything in order for the imp to teleport and save his family (although I have no idea if imps can teleport with other people?),
I am too lazy to go through all the previous comics, but did the imp ever teleport in the past? Normally imps can't teleport, not even teleport only themselves. Imps can turn invisible (maybe that was misinterpreted as teleporting when he did it in a previous comic or the Giant houseruled that his imps can teleport)

Staar
2009-02-06, 01:16 PM
Well, truly the answer to the ultimate question has been presented to us; V is a man! Hurray!
I knew he was, I mean, he's a wizard, not a sorceress. C'mon.
And his wife is HOT!

Sesquedoodle
2009-02-06, 01:17 PM
:eek:
:frown:

Not the kids! You can't, it's... it's too cruel.

Please, Giant!

Qov
2009-02-06, 01:19 PM
Stunning! The censored rant is a tribute to how deeply Rich has invited us into his stick figure world.

I'm rooting for the dragon, knowing I'll feel cheated if a deus ex machina prevents her from carrying out her intentions. Die little elven children! But Tom90deg's suggestion is brilliant. We get our cute eleven children and eat them too. The dragon can do nothing for twenty minutes then hand V a nice green hat (and maybe a macaroni portrait), and V will go the rest of the way insane.

A theory for those who aren't happy with the premise that elven skin and hair come in various shades and interbreeding isn't like mixing paint: V and mate are both female, while the sperm donor that enabled them each to get pregnant was darker skinned. The kids aren't twins, they're one from each mom.

jidasfire
2009-02-06, 01:20 PM
There are two likely outcomes resulting from this situation, and I must say I don't like either one. One is V's family is brutally murdered. This is an overwhelming, likely character-breaking tragedy for V, and at the hands of a minor villain, who seems like nothing more than a cautionary tale for adventurers that they shouldn't kill so enthusiastically. If, for example, Xykon or Nale managed to kill the family of a party member, well I'd think it was horrible, but they are important villains, so it makes story sense. Just some dragon, no matter how well-placed, is not crucial to the ongoing plot and makes the deaths pointlessly cruel.

The other is that this railroads V into compromising her/his morals and making a deal with the devil. I find this to be equally character-breaking and not particularly insightful either, because V stood by his/her convictions and clearly would have done so until put in an unfair, unwinnable situation that would make any person desperate. It makes a main character nothing but a victim of plot, rather than an agent of their own fate. It doesn't say that V is willing to work with devils to get ahead, because what member of the Order, or other character in general, when put in a similar situation, wouldn't take the only available choice for help? It's a case of "V must become evil, therefore I will create a situation where that is the only result," rather than, "V's character has grown into someone more morally dubious. I will explore that organically."

I'm all for sadness and direness in stories when the situation calls for it, but when a story does nothing but heap hopelessness on its characters, it gets wearisome.

Grazzt
2009-02-06, 01:23 PM
If the dragon's actions were just(ified/ifiable), they wouldn't be evil, now would they?

Is it even possible to justify "torture a child's soul"? Seriously, it doesn't even fit with "eye for an eye" logic.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-06, 01:25 PM
I am too lazy to go through all the previous comics, but did the imp ever teleport in the past? Normally imps can't teleport, not even teleport only themselves. Imps can turn invisible (maybe that was misinterpreted as teleporting when he did it in a previous comic or the Giant houseruled that his imps can teleport)

Yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), yes he can teleport.

The Adder
2009-02-06, 01:33 PM
The way I'm seeing it, V's mate is done for, but, somehow, the kids'll be alright.

About the four words. Not happening, not for this situation, nothing about this would be a "The right four words, to the right person, for all the wrong reasons" situation. This would be a "Right four words, wrong person, right reason" situation.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-06, 01:34 PM
I am very happy with this comic. The dragon is an excellent character, and plays her part well. She has numerous centuries of surviving adventurers under her belt, plus obvious expertise with the arcane arts. I fully expect her to decimate V's family. And I hope she does, too. I'm not saying it's justifiable (although it is to her, which is part of what makes her a good character). But it is a very realistic response, and the fact that she has it planned down so well that she can complete the task only minutes after revealing her intentions to V support this.

Even if this is a way to get V to talk hastily with Qarr, I know that the Giant will do so in an excellent, well thought out manner, and will not disappoint.

Oh, and I expect a camera change to another group with 630, to leave us wondering the outcome for many strips more. That would be evil. And perfect. :smallamused:

EDIT: Oh, and if only some of the family is killed, I really hope it's the children. Being kids should make you more vulnerable to being munched on, not give you plot armor.

Taiyama
2009-02-06, 01:37 PM
Well, I've got a prediction that I don't think has been mentioned before. This is a bit of a long-shot, but it's plausible if The Giant is sadistic enough.

The Oracle said that Vaarsuvius will gain ultimate power by saying the right four words to the right being FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS. Now, I dunno about you, but gaining power to save your spouse and children doesn't sound like all the wrong reasons. So here's my prediction: the dragon DOES do all that she said she would to V's family. V, justifiably enraged and depressed, turns to some being (maybe Qaar) and sells his soul for ultimate power for one reason: vengeance. That sounds more like "all the wrong reasons" to me than saving one's family.

The question is, though, does the Giant have the guts to do that to his characters and to us? I think so.

CyberC0re
2009-02-06, 01:39 PM
Hello all, first-time poster here. I've lurked the forums once and again upon reading a particular episode (been keeping up for a few years now). This time, I have to post due to some clear (to me) conclusions about the wicked catch-22 V is now in.

Since these conclusions could obviously be spoilers, I hope the spoiler tag in BBcode will suffice for the below...

To me, this is proof that V's kids are Roy's children from a fling. Roy may or may not know they exist, but I'm betting on "does not know" for poor Roy. This is the perfect revenge for Mama Dragon:

Revenge on V for kids death
Revenge on Roy for kids death
Revenge on the entire party for forcing V into a pact


In my mind, Mama Dragon is or is not a pawn of the fast-healing imp. The result is the same whether it's the dragon pulling the strings, the dragon is an illusion, or the imp made a deal with the dragon and is in charge.

The kids being V's and Roy's seed also explains why V wanted so badly to find "Miss Starshine", since she was in charge of Roy's Body. Knowing that V stays with Roy's group to achieve her ultimate goals in magic as well as her affection (but probably not lust any longer) for Roy also explains a lot. Green-haired parental unit at V's kids house? Foster parent, probably in the dark as to V's kids' real parents and probably rearing the rugrats as proper half-elven flower-huggers (take THAT you filthy humans?). Thinking of V and the Green-haired foster parent cuddling Roy's unknown kids brings a sentimental tear to my eye.

Annoying Belkar is, as always, just icing on the cake.

Anyway, Mama dragon is an imbecile to let V live through this revenge, since clearly V has might and friends to come back and continue the revenge cycle. Rage does blind, yes. Let's hope it blinds enough to have the dragon assume that the Green-Haired elf is a wuss, and not actually in full command of a Contingency keyword to whisk the kids to safety in case of attack.

Can V cast Contingency yet? Still a little noobish as to the character levels.

Great comic, Rich. Wish it loaded a little more reliably, but I get server errors 2 out of 3 times with your site (darn you, internets). Please keep up the excellent work.

B.I.T.T.
2009-02-06, 01:40 PM
And V never acknowledged her underlying issue at all, or showed any remorse, or even begged for her family's life ("They've done you no harm--Take me, instead!"). In other words, V made no effort to rebalance the situation (not that it necessarily would have changed anything, but it's worth a try), and therefore the situation is very much even more likely to spiral down into an extreme (evil) path. For everybody involved.

Well that's kind of a hard thing to think of when you've just been told that your kids are about to die. I mean the first knee-jerk response for a lot of people would be to try and kill whoever's telling you that, no matter how badly they overpower you.

Staar
2009-02-06, 01:43 PM
A theory for those who aren't happy with the premise that elven skin and hair come in various shades and interbreeding isn't like mixing paint: V and mate are both female, while the sperm donor that enabled them each to get pregnant was darker skinned. The kids aren't twins, they're one from each mom.

No, no, no, don't be foolish. Your logic may be strong, and perhaps even viable, but let's face facts; 80% (or greater) of the Oots followers are male, thus the coolest character (V, duh) is a man. It's just the way things are.

You're "theories" can make "sense" until the cows come home, but V will always be a dude - with a liiiiitle too much X chromosome, but nevertheless - in the eyes of the fans at large, and there's nothing women, critics, feminists, or even the Giant himself, can do about that. V's a guy.

Elfey
2009-02-06, 01:44 PM
Is it even possible to justify "torture a child's soul"? Seriously, it doesn't even fit with "eye for an eye" logic.

According to the Start of Darkness it's not just justified but 'good' to kill the children of monster classes. In truth it's only good because the Gods of this world who defined what is good and evil on the D&D scale and created always chaotic evil races and monster races like the Goblins to be fodder. It doesn't matter what they do, be it pick flowers or help the poor. If you're an evil race good gets a free pass on killing everything.

This Dragon, like Red Cloak and some of the others, knows that's BS is pretty pissed.

The Gods are jerk who consider killing a Dragon of an evil species a good act, even if that Dragon was in it's home and just trying to spend a quality weekend with Rosie Palm while Mother went away.

I think The Giant thinks the standard thoughts on Good and Evil in D&D is often too simple a 'Good' characters will wantonly slaughter evil characters'
Way back in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html you have the best clue that killing the Dragon was bad. Miko agreed killing it was just.

Now I'm not saying in the context of D&D it was evil, but when using a more mundane ethos V killed a teenager whose house they invaded to rob. That ain't Kosher. Mama Dragon wants Vengeance for the act. I am not saying that's right either. But it's understandable.

CyberC0re
2009-02-06, 01:45 PM
Hello all, first-time poster here. I've lurked the forums once and again upon reading a particular episode (been keeping up for a few years now). This time, I have to post due to some clear (to me) conclusions about the wicked catch-22 V is now in. Welcome to Ownage of the Stick... or Owned in the Playground. (Poor V!)

Since these conclusions could obviously be spoilers, I hope the spoiler tag in BBcode will suffice for the below...

To me, this is proof that V's kids are Roy's children from a fling. Roy may or may not know they exist, but I'm betting on "does not know" for poor Roy. This is the perfect revenge for Mama Dragon:

Revenge on V for kids death
Revenge on Roy for kids death
Revenge on the entire party for forcing V into a pact


In my mind, Mama Dragon is or is not a pawn of the fast-healing imp. The result is the same whether it's the dragon pulling the strings, the dragon is an illusion, or the imp made a deal with the dragon and is in charge.

The kids being V's and Roy's seed also explains why V wanted so badly to find "Miss Starshine", since she was in charge of Roy's Body. Knowing that V stays with Roy's group to achieve her ultimate goals in magic as well as her affection (but probably not lust any longer) for Roy also explains a lot. Green-haired parental unit at V's kids house? Foster parent, probably in the dark as to V's kids' real parents and probably rearing the rugrats as proper half-elven flower-huggers (take THAT you filthy humans?). Thinking of V and the Green-haired foster parent cuddling Roy's unknown kids brings a sentimental tear to my eye.

Annoying Belkar is, as always, just icing on the cake.

Anyway, Mama dragon is an imbecile to let V live through this revenge, since clearly V has might and friends to come back and continue the revenge cycle. Rage does blind, yes. Let's hope it blinds enough to have the dragon assume that the Green-Haired elf is a wuss, and not actually in full command of a Contingency keyword to whisk the kids to safety in case of attack.

Can V cast Contingency yet? Still a little noobish as to the character levels.

Great comic, Rich. Wish it loaded a little more reliably, but I get server errors 2 out of 3 times with your site (darn you, internets). Please keep up the excellent work.

hamishspence
2009-02-06, 01:47 PM
on "the dragon can always have more kids" Actually, it can't. According to Draconomicon, female dragon fertility ends in the Very Old stage. Since this is an Ancient dragon, that Young Adult was quite possibly its last ever child.

The Adder
2009-02-06, 01:50 PM
Also, interesting thought. Let's say V's mate mate is killed and eaten, but the dragon is defeated (again, somehow) before being able to soulbind hir. That would require a True Ressurection to bring him/her back, would it not? Now, who are the two most powerful clerics we know of in this comic?

Redcloak, who may be a high enough level to cast it, but why would he?

And Durkon, who we know isn't powerful enough to cast it, but is probablly the closest to being able to after Redcloak. What does this mean?

Basically its a reason for V to, not only return to the OotS, but to strive to watch out for his teammates, ESPECIALLY Durkon, and strive to make sure they grow powerful, ESPECIALLY Durkon. What I am saying is it's the path to V becoming a team player.

Doug Lampert
2009-02-06, 01:52 PM
Here are a few random thoughts:

1. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would think the dragon is still justified at this point, or that her actions aren't pure evil. :smalleek: Killing someone who had nothing to do with what was done to you as an act of revenge? Sounds like pure terrorism to me. "Yes, you were born in this village, O enemy, so I'm going to kill all the people there, who of course have nothing to do with your actions." The Giant's showing this dragon to be evil -- not a relativistic "oh, they have a different perspective" b.s. -- but evil, in the sense of, "I do things that can't remotely be justified, because I enjoy it, and because I'm strong enough not to be prevented."

2. And that being the case, IMO V was right to kill the first dragon as well. Just because the young adult dragon wasn't murdering and torturing at that moment doesn't mean that he was a sweet and gentle flower-picker beset by big mean adventurers who just hated him because he's a dragon -- it suggests that he's just like good ol' mom and probably already had more horrors to his 'record' than a WWII war criminal.

What a perfect example of "logic".

The dragon is evil because she's attacking V's family for V's actions. And because she's so evil her young child is worse than a war criminal. And because of this killing her family is justified.

So when the dragon kills people based on their relatives it's wrong, but when V kills someone because "black dragons are evil" it's alright?

Gosh! I have a question? Why doesn't this "logic" work for the dragon too? Humanoids have killed two members of her family, so all humanoids "must" be dragon killing monsters who deserve anything they get, so she's justified in killing V's family. Even if we have no particular evidence of any specific crimes by the children they're probably dragon killers just like their kin.

The reason this "logic" doesn't work for the dragon because it's nonsense. Punishment for a crime or just execution require strong evidence of wrongdoing BY the person being hurt. Not of wrongdoing by someone else who's related or who has the same color skin or scales. And by that standard the PCs were wrong in strips 10 and 11 and they were wrong to kill the young dragon.

DrivinAllNight
2009-02-06, 01:52 PM
Well, truly the answer to the ultimate question has been presented to us; V is a man! Hurray!
I knew he was, I mean, he's a wizard, not a sorceress. C'mon.
And his wife is HOT!

I think you mean Her husband is good looking :)

and on a comic note, this really is a cruel thing to do to V, she was already struggling with the loss of the soldiers from AC, and now this, just not good. If she goes evil it would not be her fault.

Grazzt
2009-02-06, 01:57 PM
According to the Start of Darkness it's not just justified but 'good' to kill the children of monster classes.

Note that I chose my words very carefully. Killing them might be justified as an eye for an eye revenge. But binding their souls for eternity? How can you justify that?

MammonAzrael
2009-02-06, 02:04 PM
Note that I chose my words very carefully. Killing them might be justified as an eye for an eye revenge. But binding their souls for eternity? How can you justify that?

To insure that V can't take the easy way out and simply resurrect h** kids. the ABD can't get her son back that way, and wants to make sure that V feels exactly the same pain she does. Which means loosing your children forever. I haven't once seen her say that she was intending on torturing the kid's souls, she only said she would bind them.

Wanton Soup
2009-02-06, 02:07 PM
It's not hypocritical, it's just evil.

What's Hypocritical is the MORAL outrage.

So your kid got killed. How many did he kill? Creatures that felt anguish and had no chance against it?

And if killing a child of a dragon is a crime punishable not by merely killing the children of the killers, but by TORTURING them and ensuring that they NEVER get to their afterlife, what's the appropriate response to a critter that tortures to death the children of another creature? Summary banishment to the deepest 18th level of hell for all eternity FOR THE ENTIRE SPECIES???

This dragon has no right to moral outrage.

THAT'S the hypocrisy.

EvilJames
2009-02-06, 02:07 PM
Confused about the dragon's logic. At what point was it a good idea to leave your PRECIOUS, ONLY CHILD (strange for an ancient dragon) guarding a valuable item when you are entirely aware of the fact that dragons of all ages are adventurer targets?

Second, shouldn't Roy be taking the blame for this one, or the group as a whole? If they hadn't gone on the side quest to retrieve the starmetal (Not V's idea if I recall) then the encounter never would have happened. You can't blame V for defending himself from a dangerous opponent, especially when the rest of the party had just as much a hand in the whole thing.

Third, you're going to remove yourself from the Material Plane permanently? REALLY? You're an ancient black dragon with several centuries ahead of you AT LEAST, and dragons are some of the most fertile creatures around. Why didn't you take the time to have more children, or protect the one child better against adventurers if he was such a gem? Is going through all of this trouble to take revenge on an elf (who, I might add, is perfectly capable of remarrying/having more kids/reforging the bonds of parentship in his/her several centuries of remaining life), and then rendering the remainder of your existence a paranoia fest REALLY worth it? Because let's be honest, if you don't kill V now then he/she is GOING to kill you someday. Outsiders like to talk and make deals, and an ancient black dragon who would be out of place on any other plane IS NOT going to have an easy time hiding from a wizard with a grudge.

The dragon isn't being crafty. It's repeating the idiocy that cost it it's child in the first place. I look forward to seeing it make some sort of fatal error in the coming chapters, since it seems to be running purely on emotion in this whole affair.

Ther are plenty of places a dragon could hide in the planes as well as the astral and ethereal. The planes are a big place. Infinitely so. Few would notice if she took up residence in a forgotten rock or demi plane in the ethereal or on some floating godcorpse in the astral (preferably one not infested with githyanki) Outlands look a lot like the prime so she would be quite comfortable there, Tiamat would likely welcome her in her realm for the outright nastiness of her deeds, the list goes on. So what if some outsider spots her randomly, what are the odds that that one ever comes into contact with V, or tells the truth when it does? The likelihood of her being found in an elven lifetime if she escapes to the infinite other planes is pretty slim. Unless she does something to draw a lot of attention to her self out there, she's gone. (and no being a dragon isn't going to draw a lot of attaintion out there)

David Argall
2009-02-06, 02:10 PM
{Scrubbed}

ericgrau
2009-02-06, 02:13 PM
Ugh, I have a stance on this but I'm not gonna get into it. You know what annoys me a little less than morality debates? Gender debates. So what's the gender of V's mate anyway? How about those kids? I'm not sure about those either. And were they naturally born or adopted?

Grazzt
2009-02-06, 02:19 PM
To insure that V can't take the easy way out and simply resurrect h** kids. the ABD can't get her son back that way, and wants to make sure that V feels exactly the same pain she does. Which means loosing your children forever. I haven't once seen her say that she was intending on torturing the kid's souls, she only said she would bind them.

If she wanted to do that, all she has to do is eat them. Then they can't be gotten back except by extremely powerful magic, the equivalent of which would resurrect her son.

And really, she's an evil arcanist. Even if she doesn't torture them herself, how long until she sells off the kids' souls, for giggles if nothing else?

Shatteredtower
2009-02-06, 02:20 PM
on "the dragon can always have more kids" Actually, it can't.

I'm more disturbed by the sheer level of callousness demonstrated by the statement. Two of the most insensitive things you could ever say to a parent who's lost a child are, "At least you have more," and, "You can always make more."

And Carnivorous_Bea, nothing in the definition of justice requires mercy. Vlad the Impaler demonstrated that quite aptly. Justice can be very monstrous indeed. It can also be inconsistent: the sentence handed to V is very just. The cost to the children and mate is not.

I'm not sure why everyone is speculating about the biological parentage of the children. I see nothing more extraordinary than the deep tan I used to acquire in the summers of my childhood. They're certainly not Roy's, as one poster speculated: he'd have been three or four years old when these two 26-year-olds were born.

kingworks
2009-02-06, 02:23 PM
I appreciate how Rich has tried to crank up the dramatic tension here - and it seems to be effective.

There are a ton of comments, so I apologize if my observation is redundant, but I have to ask myself: what kind of a good-aligned sentient being would leave his/her/its family to go adventuring - or any other reason, for that matter? It's very selfish at the very least.

This feels like a bit of tragicus deus ex machina (I totally just made that up) - as far as I know, there have been absolutely no other references prior to this encounter of V having kids - less sure about the mate.

NamonakiRei
2009-02-06, 02:26 PM
:smalleek: :eek:

dun dun DUUNHHH... Oh man! That was... oh man.
A masterpiece, of course, but so dark... :smalleek:

Now I think the Dragoness is in the wrong side. Revenge ain't good but can be reasonable, but, as has already been stated, this is too much. I mean, V didn't do anyhting to the young dragon's soul. Nor was V the one who turned the Dragon's mate into an armour. This is an overreaction. And this is saying something, too. The dragon isn't doing anything that wouldn't be expected. Except for the reason she's doing it. I mean, a mother had her only child killed? Widow? An evil race? If I were V, I would have ran to my children the moment I saw the dragon. But V didn't. Also, V hasn't been trancing in a long time because of her Stress problems... so Vs aim is deteriorated. Looks like the dragoness picked the best moment of all. And now she's going to kill innocent children (and more) to make V pay. That's a HIGH price to pay for V. For his arrogance, indiference, and her really stupid behaviour the last strips he spent with the group.

And, as someone else said before, the dragon is proving to be no best than the opinion V has of Black dragons. Instead of doing something to make V feel guilty, but REAL guilty(Like in that GERAT theory of not killing them, and leaving a note), the dragoness is most likeley going to do what she said.

I could go with the "Let's hope anything happens", but the way I see it, V is in for a great loss :smalleek: (And Why-oh-why does this remind me of Redcloak?? Even if only a little...)

Anyway, I loved seeing V's mate and children. To me, Vs mate looks just as androgynus as V, but a little more male than female, because he's got no curves. But hey, maybe she's a she! And as for the kids, they are very cute, and (To me) resemble their parents a lot! :smallbiggrin:

Hope to have 630 delivered soon. Go, Giant, you rock!!

Raenir Salazar
2009-02-06, 02:32 PM
what in TV Trops would baby eating be under? Convenient Miscarriage or do they have a Baby Eating trope? :)


I am sooooooooooo psyched! Need... Episode... 630...!!!! Eargh!

I'm suffering from oots withdrawal :(

I see 2 possibilities assuming we dont suddenly cut to somewhere else.

1) V somehow saves his children via Qarr. But gets Ultimate Arcane power to prevent anyone harming her children ever again.

2) V doesn't save her children and gains Ultimate Arcane power out of revenge.

Both possibilities can be argued towards the possibility of gaining power for the "wrong" reasons.

Then again, the Seer has minced/bent the words of his visions, "wrong" reasons may be different for the kobold then to lawful good people.

I think someone mentioned that before.

St. Salieri
2009-02-06, 02:37 PM
Philosophical detour alert!


Isn't "unjust" the very definition of "evil", as "just" is the definition of good?

Actually, "just" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=just) is closer to being the very definition of "lawful," making "unjust" the equivalent of "chaotic." Indeed, the nature of goodness is often at odds with justice. (Note that I'm trying to represent good/evil/law/chaos as DnD does, though I think that characterization can be useful in reality, as well.)

The essence of "justice" is giving people what they deserve; the essence of goodness is self-sacrifice for the sake of giving people what they need (and possibly what they want). Feeding a beggar is good--because involves a sacrifice on the donor's part and fulfills a need on the recipient's part--but it is not just--the beggar didn't earn the food. If you're a strict "survival of the fittest" type, then feeding the beggar could actually be considered unjust--because you're interfering with the natural course of things and preventing the beggar from helping himself.

There's certainly room for overlap between the two; justice only makes sense in the context of a particular ethical system (that is, a body of laws), and morality (of some form) is generally the basis for that system. So the more closely a legal framework is aligned with goodness, the closer "just" is to being "good" (and the closer "unjust" is to being "evil").

So if "an eye for an eye" is an important part of Mama Dragon's legal framework, then her plan is "just" as far as she's concerned.


We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Harmandil
2009-02-06, 02:38 PM
You are saying that Giant couldn't kill the cute kids?

Well, this is a comic based on D&D.... part of the thrill is that really bad things can happen if the players screw up. Having said that, V still has chance or it wouldn't be interesting encounter to play. That's also one of the rules of RPG.

Furthermore, V knows this. He/she also knew the rule about running into exactly one random encounter, no matter the distance the PC:s travel.


Now, mind wanders to a certain imp and perhaps also to a certain petrified major demon who just might be up to bargain...

Grazzt
2009-02-06, 02:38 PM
I appreciate how Rich has tried to crank up the dramatic tension here - and it seems to be effective.

There are a ton of comments, so I apologize if my observation is redundant, but I have to ask myself: what kind of a good-aligned sentient being would leave his/her/its family to go adventuring - or any other reason, for that matter? It's very selfish at the very least.

This feels like a bit of tragicus deus ex machina (I totally just made that up) - as far as I know, there have been absolutely no other references prior to this encounter of V having kids - less sure about the mate.


You could also call it deus angst machina (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusAngstMachina).

I'm pretty sure the spouse was referenced before. I can't remember the strip number, but it was back when Miko was still in the party. V and Durkon were talking about human romance, and contrasting Roy and Miko with Haley and Elan.

B.I.T.T.
2009-02-06, 02:43 PM
What a perfect example of "logic".

The dragon is evil because she's attacking V's family for V's actions. And because she's so evil her young child is worse than a war criminal. And because of this killing her family is justified.

So when the dragon kills people based on their relatives it's wrong, but when V kills someone because "black dragons are evil" it's alright?

Gosh! I have a question? Why doesn't this "logic" work for the dragon too? Humanoids have killed two members of her family, so all humanoids "must" be dragon killing monsters who deserve anything they get, so she's justified in killing V's family. Even if we have no particular evidence of any specific crimes by the children they're probably dragon killers just like their kin.

The reason this "logic" doesn't work for the dragon because it's nonsense. Punishment for a crime or just execution require strong evidence of wrongdoing BY the person being hurt. Not of wrongdoing by someone else who's related or who has the same color skin or scales. And by that standard the PCs were wrong in strips 10 and 11 and they were wrong to kill the young dragon.

Well I'll concede that killing a dragon just because of to color of it's scales isn't exactly the textbook definition of "good" I'll even go so far as to say that it's wrong given just that situation.

However I don't think V killed the first black dragon because just because it was a black dragon. I think the fact that the spell would have worn off eventually and that their lives would have in pretty severe peril once it did might have had something to do with it as well.

Several points that people seem to forget about the first dragon. He breathed acid at the party. He almost ate V, and he did technically eat Haley.

Surfing HalfOrc
2009-02-06, 02:43 PM
Qarr's second chance is coming up! His offer of power for power's sake fell flat on it's face, as many of us expected. V seeks power, but is no fool. Taking a bad deal for short trm gain is not something some as smart as Vaarsuvius would do.

But taking a bad deal to save hir children? S/he'll do that in a heartbeat! Any parent would.

What'sthe CR of an an ABD anyways? I'm not sure that the full party could stop her anyways, and with them down by Roy, the rest of the team still scattered, and no support staff (Azure City. Maybe if they had won that battle?)

Still, what can Qarr offer?

Harmandil
2009-02-06, 02:45 PM
By the way, have all the PC:s met their arch-nemesis yet?

Roy - Xykon
Haley - Crystal
Elan - Nale
Vaarsuvius - the Dragon
Belkar - the Oracle? Miko? (I don't think so, maybe Belkar was Miko's nemesis)
Durkon - ?

Quorothorn
2009-02-06, 02:47 PM
I don't like the idea of children being always divinely protected in comics or computer games (usually they don't exist even there, so nobody could yell "hey, they allow to kill artifical pixel-made children, hang them!"). In real world kids are killed sometimes, and the OOTS' world isn't also a fairy tale. Anyway, really evil dragons should do something really evil. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so evil, don't you think? By the way, they are 26. By human standards, they are only SHORT. And I don't think children are more "innocent" than average adult "lawful good" person. Hey, in OOTS thousands innocent people died during the siege of Azure city, and you didn't protest, because they were OLDER. (at least the ones which were shown dying). I can't imagine why murdering adults is thought to be something better than murdering children. Maybe I'm a pervert thinking that slaughtering adults is equally evil. I don't know why such an age discrimination is any better than racism.

(I expect to be lynched for this post.)

Simple answer: children are at the beginning of their lives and have basically no autonomy (aka they are not responsible for their situation). Adults, by contrast, have lived at least a significant segment of their lifespan, and (usually) made their own choices, so if they end up dead in, say, battle, they can be assumed to have known the risks, so their deaths are not quite as tragic.


To insure that V can't take the easy way out and simply resurrect h** kids. the ABD can't get her son back that way, and wants to make sure that V feels exactly the same pain she does. Which means loosing your children forever. I haven't once seen her say that she was intending on torturing the kid's souls, she only said she would bind them.

...And how is condemning a sentient creature to eternal, dreary confinement NOT TORTURE?! I know I'd go insane if I was so trapped. The binding itself qualifies as horrifically evil torture, without need for anything else.

At least the Young Adult Dragon (note the "adult" bit there) went to whatever afterlife Black Dragons get (probably the same one, notably, that MAMA DRAGON HERSELF WILL GO TO, which shoots a whole bunch of holes in the "argument" that this is eye-for-an-eye vengeance). The ABD's plan is to put two kindergarten-age kids in separation from EVERYTHING. Forever.

KIDS
2009-02-06, 02:47 PM
Impressive.... and poor V's family :(

However, I detest the use of "Parent" tags. It was distracting and made the entire scene feel overwhelmingly silly. I know that you don't want to reveal V's gender (yet?) or whatever but seriously, there must have been ways to involve actual names without spoiling anything.

Kaytara
2009-02-06, 02:49 PM
Well that's kind of a hard thing to think of when you've just been told that your kids are about to die. I mean the first knee-jerk response for a lot of people would be to try and kill whoever's telling you that, no matter how badly they overpower you.

Not to mention that the dragon clearly wasn't in a mood to listen anything V said, anyway. She was ranting, too. She interrupted V's only attempt to say anything in objection, even if those words started with shock and horror, as natural, rather than with "Please don't!", which V would realize would have no effect on a creature that evil, except perhaps to amuse her.

On a side note, while the kids are very cute, am I the only one who thinks their heads are freakishly big? :smallconfused: I mean, they're as big as an adult's. I mean, we see Roy apparently of the same age here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html), and his head is quite a bit smaller than his mom's.

motub
2009-02-06, 02:57 PM
I mean the first knee-jerk response for a lot of people would be to try and kill whoever's telling you that
Right.... and trying to kill somebody, even in order to prevent them from doing something that they haven't yet done, even if they said that they were going to do it, post-haste, is still the "just" response of a "good" person...?

I'd think, myself, that perhaps there might exist more explicitly and clearly "good" methods of attempting to prevent the proposed crime (and committing a crime yourself is not top of the list, but rather a last resort).

But that's probably just me.

Hatu
2009-02-06, 02:57 PM
I'm all for sadness and direness in stories when the situation calls for it, but when a story does nothing but heap hopelessness on its characters, it gets wearisome.

Hear, hear! I'm not really sure OotS is improved by taking the Dark And Gritty route, but it would be more palatable if it came with less arbitrary author fiat. Especially since it seems poised to overwrite the much more believable development V got from his inability to contact Haley.

I'll wait to see how this digression is resolved, but if it goes either of the ways jidasfire expects, it might be time to start rooting for the Snarl.

-H

MammonAzrael
2009-02-06, 02:58 PM
...And how is condemning a sentient creature to eternal, dreary confinement NOT TORTURE?! I know I'd go insane if I was so trapped. The binding itself qualifies as horrifically evil torture, without need for anything else.

At least the Young Adult Dragon (note the "adult" bit there) went to whatever afterlife Black Dragons get (probably the same one, notably, that MAMA DRAGON HERSELF WILL GO TO, which shoots a whole bunch of holes in the "argument" that this is eye-for-an-eye vengeance). The ABD's plan is to put two kindergarten-age kids in separation from EVERYTHING. Forever.

Where does it say that the souls are aware they are bound? Isn't it equally possible they are simply held in stasis, unaware of existing? That's not torture at all. Just a cryogenic freezing of the soul. And I disagree that the binding by itself qualifies as evil since the likely spell used, Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm), lacks the Evil descriptor, and therefore isn't evil in and of itself.

And when you're both evil and you have the power, why would you settle for just and eye for an eye, when you could have the whole head?

As for the afterlife, I don't know. It's possible the ABD has no access to True Resurrection. Presumably at least one question she asked the Oracle was related to raising her son. I expect we will find out what the answer was to that in the upcoming comics.


Right.... and trying to kill somebody, even in order to prevent them from doing something that they haven't yet done, even if they said that they were going to do it, post-haste, is still the "just" response of a "good" person...?

I'd think, myself, that perhaps there might exist more explicitly and clearly "good" methods of attempting to prevent the proposed crime (and committing a crime yourself is not top of the list, but rather a last resort).

But that's probably just me.

I think it's already been shown pretty clearly that V is no longer Good (if h** ever was), but Neutral. So, I don't think this argument really applies.

hamishspence
2009-02-06, 02:59 PM
nearly every picture of a "child" as opposed to a baby, in SOD and Origin, shows head around the same size and body shorter.

Including the 19 year old V.

in The Legacy by R. A. Salvatore, the soul of a dwarf, trapped for 2000 years, is very aware of its plight (possibly thanks to being summoned out of it)

SOD spoiler:The souls of Lirien and Dorukan are very aware of what happened to them.

Imprison Soul, Soul Bind's clerical counterpart (BoVD, Heroes of Horror), has Evil descriptor.

Quorothorn
2009-02-06, 03:05 PM
Where does it say that the souls are aware they are bound? Isn't it equally possible they are simply held in stasis, unaware of existing? That's not torture at all. Just a cryogenic freezing of the soul. And I disagree that the binding by itself qualifies as evil since the likely spell used, Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm), lacks the Evil descriptor, and therefore isn't evil in and of itself.

And when you're both evil and you have the power, why would you settle for just and eye for an eye, when you could have the whole head?

As for the afterlife, I don't know. It's possible the ABD has no access to True Resurrection. Presumably at least one question she asked the Oracle was related to raising her son. I expect we will find out what the answer was to that in the upcoming comics.

Start of Darkness makes it clear that those who have been Soul Bound are aware of their condition.

Also, just because a spell isn't pegged with the "Evil" indicator doesn't mean it's not. For instance, there's a 9th-level spell which, IIRC, is called Memory Modification: no "Evil" label. However, in BoVD, there is a spell called "Mind Rape" that does, get this, the exact same thing as Memory Modification, and it has an Evil tag. Inconsistency thy name is WotC. :smallbiggrin:

Kaytara
2009-02-06, 03:06 PM
Where does it say that the souls are aware they are bound? Isn't it equally possible they are simply held in stasis, unaware of existing? That's not torture at all. Just a cryogenic freezing of the soul. And I disagree that the binding by itself qualifies as evil since the likely spell used, Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm), lacks the Evil descriptor, and therefore isn't evil in and of itself.


Without giving too much away, in Start of Darkness Xykon is shown using Soul Bind on two people and they are very much aware of their situation. He even specifically plans to have the bound soul witness something that will supposedly drive them insane.

Wanton Soup
2009-02-06, 03:06 PM
No, no, no, don't be foolish. Your logic may be strong, and perhaps even viable, but let's face facts; 80% (or greater) of the Oots followers are male, thus the coolest character (V, duh) is a man. It's just the way things are.

You're "theories" can make "sense" until the cows come home, but V will always be a dude - with a liiiiitle too much X chromosome, but nevertheless - in the eyes of the fans at large, and there's nothing women, critics, feminists, or even the Giant himself, can do about that. V's a guy.

Thank you for that hearfelt but meaningless sexist rant.

Male here, don't CARE what gender V is. I don't date stick characters.

However "he" was always in the past the gender neutral pronoun. And you can see the lexical contortions made to accommodate anything else. Some use "she". Argyl for one, IIRC. Seems to me "David" is likely male, despite your rhetoric.

Da'Shain
2009-02-06, 03:08 PM
Right.... and trying to kill somebody, even in order to prevent them from doing something that they haven't yet done, even if they said that they were going to do it, post-haste, is still the "just" response of a "good" person...?

I'd think, myself, that perhaps there might exist more explicitly and clearly "good" methods of attempting to prevent the proposed crime (and committing a crime yourself is not top of the list, but rather a last resort).

But that's probably just me.Is anyone arguing that it's the "just" and "good" response, though? (Not being facetious, I actually don't know.) It seems like the argument is that V's response is perfectly natural and the likely response of many parents facing that situation.

Also, when facing a dragon who's demonstrated that she can almost effortlessly toy with you and has every reason to actually carry out her threat, the last resort comes to the forefront pretty quickly. If V saw a chance to kill, V'd take it in heartbeat ... as would I in such a situation.

B.I.T.T.
2009-02-06, 03:09 PM
Right.... and trying to kill somebody, even in order to prevent them from doing something that they haven't yet done, even if they said that they were going to do it, post-haste, is still the "just" response of a "good" person...?

I'd think, myself, that perhaps there might exist more explicitly and clearly "good" methods of attempting to prevent the proposed crime (and committing a crime yourself is not top of the list, but rather a last resort).

But that's probably just me.

Well I didn't say V's response was good and/or just, I said that's the knee-jerk response.

Wanton Soup
2009-02-06, 03:11 PM
Now I'm not saying in the context of D&D it was evil, but when using a more mundane ethos V killed a teenager whose house they invaded to rob. That ain't Kosher. Mama Dragon wants Vengeance for the act. I am not saying that's right either. But it's understandable.

That's a BIG kid.

How many powers does this "teenager" have? How many times were they exercised? Children are considered more carefully because they are defenseless.

Half a freaking ton of clawing death with armour plate and acid that will eat metal as an attack is NOT defenseless.

It's a teenage monster.

Heck, we kill critters that are mere hours old. Polio vaccine.

hamishspence
2009-02-06, 03:14 PM
I think somebody compared it to Kevin in Home Alone- aggressively defending its home with nasty weaponry.

Quorothorn
2009-02-06, 03:15 PM
That's a BIG kid.

How many powers does this "teenager" have? How many times were they exercised? Children are considered more carefully because they are defenseless.

Half a freaking ton of clawing death with armour plate and acid that will eat metal as an attack is NOT defenseless.

It's a teenage monster.

Heck, we kill critters that are mere hours old. Polio vaccine.

I agree, but I should also point out that viruses aren't sentient, whilst dragons are.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-06, 03:18 PM
Without giving too much away, in Start of Darkness Xykon is shown using Soul Bind on two people and they are very much aware of their situation. He even specifically plans to have the bound soul witness something that will supposedly drive them insane.

Ahh. Well there you go. I really need to get SoD. :smalltongue:

Quorothorn
2009-02-06, 03:22 PM
Ahh. Well there you go. I really need to get SoD. :smalltongue:

Indeed: it's an amazing book. One of the best I've ever read, in point of fact. (Not to give you too high expectations or anything. :smallamused:)

Wanton Soup
2009-02-06, 03:38 PM
I think somebody compared it to Kevin in Home Alone- aggressively defending its home with nasty weaponry.

So this dragon is McCauly-Culkin?

DEATH'S TOO GOOD FOR THEM.

PS Kevin didn't have supernatural powers and the strength and constitution of 30 men and claws that can rend metal.

And I don't think Kevin's weaponry were lethal or intended to be. If it were, just wire up the mains to the doorknob and fry 'em.

So not a lot like Kevin.