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Zergrusheddie
2009-02-06, 04:38 AM
Just a general question folks. Why are Battlefield Control spells like Entangling Roots and Web so highly regarded?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Eldariel
2009-02-06, 04:49 AM
Simple: With minimal investment (one spell), you can cut off most of the adversaries in an encounter, finish the others off while the rest are locked down in Web/Entangle/whatever and then deal with the locked down ones (and they're still probably unable to fight back). If you can hit all opponents with an immobilizing effect, it becomes kinda like shooting a fish in a bucket.

Also, they can make it harder for reinforcements to arrive (all the while also performing the aforementioned functions) by interposing between the reinforcements and the battle. The best case scenario is that you're fighting in an alleyish area and can cut off an entire road. Same applies to mountain paths, some forest areas and so on. And even if you can't block 'em off, they'll still have to go around the effect to reach you.


Basically, battlefield control-spells allow you to get the most mileage out of your spell slots, being able to just disable a large number of opponents giving you free shots and allowing for easy mop-up.

AslanCross
2009-02-06, 04:54 AM
If you see black tentacles cast into the middle of a group of level appropriate medium sized enemies, you'll know why.

The wizard in my now-defunct campaign did that every encounter he had the spell ready.

He's hosed entire encounters with that spell.

TheOOB
2009-02-06, 04:54 AM
It's simple really, the more foes you can take out of an encounter, the easier the encounter is. The spells you mentioned are some of the weaker ones, but they are still better then any of the damage spells for their levels.

Think of it like this. Most foes are either only able to do melee attacks, or are at least way better at melee then ranged combat. By immobilizing your foes, you are cutting off their offensive ability significantly, letting your ranged attackers pickk them off while your melee fighters mop up the ones not hit by the spell.

If you want to go a step further, better control spells like the 2nd level glitterdust severely hamper your enemies fighting ability while not hurting your own team(as long as you do it before your team gets into the melee.)

Good wizards only use damage spells occasionally, let the rogues, fighters, and clerics deal the damage, you just keep the foes from being able to attack your team, or if possible disabling them entirely.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-06, 06:09 AM
Ahhh, so why throw a Fireball that will kill mooks when you can throw out a Glitterdust that will disable all the mooks and some of the Colored Leads?

If Entangling Roots is one of the weaker Battlefield Control spells, what are some of the stronger ones for Druids? I always liked the idea of a caster use Nature to screw over his enemies.

Y'all are awesome.
-Eddie

Keld Denar
2009-02-06, 08:32 AM
Briar Web is Entangle +1, given that it has some minor damage tacked on that can add up over time if the trapped foe can't escape. Wall of Thorns is THE druid win spell, for quite a few levels. Anything that can't teleport is royally boned. Plant Growth is pretty sick too, especially when you couple it with Vine Mines or similar to produce plants anywhere you want.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-06, 09:45 PM
Something like Web, Sleet Storm, or Blizzard seem a little counter-productive. Is the point to keep the targets out of combat and kill them when their buddies are already taken care of or is it meant to just hamper them? Because I don't see it being the smartest idea if the majority of your group damage is melee, unless you can spare the Freedom of Movement spells.

The newbie sends his regards.
-Eddie

Siosilvar
2009-02-06, 09:52 PM
Something like Web, Sleet Storm, or Blizzard seem a little counter-productive. Is the point to keep the targets out of combat and kill them when their buddies are already taken care of or is it meant to just hamper them? Yes. Either one helps, but the first helps more.

aje8
2009-02-06, 10:54 PM
They're good because combat is inherently rigged towards the PCs, your expected to win, thus a small bonus against a large # of enemies will make comabt trivial.

Additionally, for taking out mooks, any mook that has so much as 1 hit point left after fireball is 100% effective. A foe (whether or not they save) after glitterdust is VERY ineffective.

Finally, Battlefield Control spells are usually No-SR spells that still do quite a bit after saving. They also DON'T require any rolling on the wizards part.

valadil
2009-02-07, 02:35 AM
Battlefield control allows you to divide and conquer. Instead of having a 4 on 4 fight, you get four 4 on 1 fights, which ends up being much easier.

Another way to think about it is in terms of turns. If a wizard casts solid fog on his enemies and 3 of them take 2 rounds to escape, and another takes 1 round, that wizard spent 1 turn nullifying 7 enemy turns. If you can't see why that is effective maybe you shouldn't be gaming :-P

TheOOB
2009-02-07, 04:26 AM
Ahhh, so why throw a Fireball that will kill mooks when you can throw out a Glitterdust that will disable all the mooks and some of the Colored Leads?

Fireball doesn't kill all the mooks though. 3.5 is interesting in that enemies tend to have way more HD then their CR, which in turn means that enemies have large amount of HP for the level you will be fighting them, which means that damage is an inefficient means to kill an opponent when all of your damage comes from a strictly limited resource.

Most of the best battlefield control spells don't harm your party after the initial effect(like glitterdust), which allows your fighters to mop up. The others tend to get most of the enemies, but not all, allowing you to divide up the enemies making multiple easier fights, this is especially true of spells like solid fog, which not only doesn't allow a save, but makes different enemies emerge at different times at different locations allowing your team to mop up very well.

Thespianus
2009-02-09, 01:51 AM
So, to remain vaguely on topic, what battlefield control spell is preferable at level 2? In my current party, we have a Sorcerer who've just reached 2nd level spells and he needs to pick one 2nd level spell for our next session.

Will Glitterdust turn out to be everything we dreamt of? :smallwink:

How does Glitterdust work against undeads, for example?

Or is there another 2nd level spell that will make us all happier?

(We run a Barbarian, Cleric, (arcaneish) Rogue and Sorcerer party)

AslanCross
2009-02-09, 02:05 AM
For level 2, I prefer either glitterdust or web.

Web's advantage is its massive area, and that it still penalizes targets even on a successful save. It's hard to deal with, and web is a good opener to fireball or flaming sphere---don't forget the extra damage the targets take from the burning webs. (Yes, I still like blasting stuff once in a while.) Downside is that it's likely to catch friendlies in it too.

Glitterdust's advantage is that it's small area allows for precision targeting (which may also be a problem if you're up against big mobs), and that even undead aren't immune to it. Undead are only immune to spells with the [Mind-Affecting] tag; Glitterdust isn't. The only creatures that won't be affected by it significantly are creatures that are blind (who usually have blindsense). It's almost useless against dragons, for example.

The most amazing use of glitterdust I've seen was in our last session with my now-defunct Forgotten Realms game. The ranger was all alone on a castle wall (she got up the fastest; the others struggled due to either crappy Climb checks or heavy armor), and was surrounded by hobgoblin warblades. She had just used up the invisibility potion she'd drunk to climb to the top, and was cornered by the warblades. One of them used Rabid Wolf Strike to deal enough damage to drop the ranger.

The Wizard thinks quickly, casts celerity, and then glitterdusts the warblade just as she delivers her strike (which was a hit by attack roll). Now blind, I rule that the warblade has to succeed on her miss chance check. 1-50% on the percentile roll; she hits. 51-100, she misses.
Everyone swallows, and I roll the percentile dice.
51. The ranger lived to see another day---though that was the last time we ever played. :P

TheOOB
2009-02-09, 02:50 AM
Glitterdust is the cream of the level 2 crop, it effects anything that relies on sight. That said, web and Tasha's Hideous Laughter are both great controll spells for that level.

Other then that, shatter, invisibility, see invisibility, mirror image, false life, rope trick, spider climb, knock, and fog cloud are all very useful spells that I personally favor. Scorching ray should also get a mention because its one of the few damage spells thats worth using(it does a lot of damage for it's level), the others big ones are the orb spells, which being instant conjuration<creation> effects work through an AMF.

Triaxx
2009-02-09, 06:36 PM
Heightened Grease. :smallwink: Web is my preferene, because they do spend quite a while getting out of it, and even then they can't really rush you. Plus it offers some cover against any attacker who uses ranged attacks.

I've always house ruled that it required concentration check to cast while webbed, but not all DM's agree with that one.

Draz74
2009-02-09, 07:52 PM
The thing that keeps Web from being super-awesome is that it doesn't work in nice, flat, open areas. It requires some kind of terrain to attach to.

That, and the ability of any fire-based monsters to laugh at it as they burn it down.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-09, 09:37 PM
The thing that keeps Web from being super-awesome is that it doesn't work in nice, flat, open areas. It requires some kind of terrain to attach to.

That, and the ability of any fire-based monsters to laugh at it as they burn it down.

That is why I like Summoning Spiders:
Each Spider each can use Web attack 7/day. Not as good as the spell: but entangled until use standard action to break means they lose a turn or they suck for rest of combat.

Spiders can affect something up to 1 size larger so small =meduim for web, etc.

sonofzeal
2009-02-09, 10:22 PM
The use of Glitterdust in neutralizing invisibility/stealth is not to be underestimated either. Recently, the party I was in was ambushed by Shadar-Kai when half the members weren't there. The only two characters there (my Artificer and a friend's Wizard) had truely horrid spot checks, and couldn't hope to see these guys on a nat20. However.... I had a wand of Glitterdust. Five charges and a few readied actions later we emerged victorious, with several of the affected Shadar-Kai fleeing once their cover was blown and another biting the dust hard.

So yeah, Glitterdust ftw.

valadil
2009-02-09, 11:04 PM
Or is there another 2nd level spell that will make us all happier?


For a sorc with 2nd level spells, I recommend sculpted grease (it's 4 greases for +1 spell levels) and sculpted color spray. Swap out color spray for glitterdust later. When you get thirds pick up stinking cloud and start sculpting that later too.

Thespianus
2009-02-10, 01:25 AM
For a sorc with 2nd level spells, I recommend sculpted grease (it's 4 greases for +1 spell levels) and sculpted color spray. Swap out color spray for glitterdust later. When you get thirds pick up stinking cloud and start sculpting that later too.

Our Sorceror is suffering from an acute lack of Sculpt Spell, but otherwise it sounds great :smallsmile:

Seing as I play the Rogue in the party, I'm all for Glitterdust. I wanna shine too! :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-02-10, 07:31 AM
Grease is just as good. Everyone on Grease without 5 ranks in Balance is flat-footed. SA away!

valadil
2009-02-10, 09:44 AM
Our Sorceror is suffering from an acute lack of Sculpt Spell, but otherwise it sounds great :smallsmile:

Seing as I play the Rogue in the party, I'm all for Glitterdust. I wanna shine too! :smallbiggrin:

Ah. Shank him in his sleep (should be easy with sneak attack) and make him roll a proper sorcerer with sculpt spell* and rapid metamagic.

*Actually I have no idea if optimal sorcerers even consider taking sculpt. At low levels it owns though.

Person_Man
2009-02-10, 10:18 AM
I'd add that a big reason battlefield control is such a big deal is that D&D uses turn based combat where the PCs are almost always outnumbered by the enemies.

For example, if there are four PC's and 20 enemies, it's likely that each PC will be attacked 5ish times before they can react/heal/move/attack again. At higher levels with iterative attacks and scaled spells and effects, the likelihood of survival drops off precipitously. So every PC needs battlefield control of some type to limit the number of attacks per round, and meatshields almost always need some form of AoO combo as well.