Anti-Magic Fields (Spoilers & Speculation!!!)

[Kaytara]

After what the dragon has pulled with V, I can't help but think about what an insanely overpowered spell that is. If my understanding is correct, at its essence it indiscriminately suppresses effectively all magic (with very few exceptions) as well as supernatural abilities, magic items etc. No matter how high-level a spellcaster is, within an AMF they're helpless.

So wouldn't that make it a perfectly viable tactic against Xykon?

Without his destructive spells (and without his Fear Aura, Paralyzing Touch, etc.... those are supernatural abilities, aren't they?) he would be little more than a particularly tough NPC that would be easy to take down with a few swings or, at worst, a mundane trap and chemical explosives.:smallamused:

This assumes, of course, that he doesn't have anything related to his Epicness or Lichdom that protects him from AMFs.

For the DnD experts among you, exactly what effect does an AMF have on a Lich, anyway? (I know it only suppresses incorporeal undead, so apart from that...) For example, what happens if a Lich is destroyed in an AMF? Or if the phylactery is located in an AMF when the body is destroyed? Can the phylactery still grow a new body then?

An Anti-Magic field would be a fitting and ironic end for Xykon, especially since Roy points out in Origins that Xykon likely has the same weakness many spellcasters share: "Too much faith in the power of magic."
It would also be significant for Vaarsuvius' development if, during the final showdown, he simply cast AMF and let his allies mundanely hammer away at the Lich while V waited at the sidelines without taking the stage with his magic for once.

Thoughts?

[dresdor]

It has a slightly less than 50% chance of working presuming Xyklon only has 21 caster levels:

From the 3.5 SRD:

Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.

What is interesting is that Antimagic field should not have worked on the forcecage, as
ike a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, and
Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions).. It stands to reason that force cage would not be effected, as it's just a shaped version of wall of force (and higher level)

Most likely this is a "house rule" or a rule flub by the giant.

[Chronos]

The forcecage thing has been discussed already. The short version is that Antimagic Field says it affects all spells unless specifically stated otherwise, and Forcecage only explicitly inherits the resistance to Dispel from Wall of Force, not the immunity to antimagic field. So technically, it's a houserule (albeit a very common one) to say that Forcecage isn't affected by AMF.

And the only epic spell Xykon is known to have is Cloister, which is of limited use in a fight. We've never seen him use epic combat magic, even when he was about to be permanently destroyed by Soon, and all of his non-epic spells would still be suppressed.

[Kaytara]

Ah, thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering about.

Even a 50% chance is still pretty nifty, though.

Also, something I wanted to add in the OP but forgot....

Redcloak and Tsukiko aren't Epic-level, so they'd be easy game in an AMF. Tsukiko is presumably a rather squishy spellcaster and would be useless without her magic. And Redcloak, while a cleric, has been shown to rely completely on his spells. He doesn't even seem to carry a weapon.

[derfenrirwolv]

For the DnD experts among you, exactly what effect does an AMF have on a Lich, anyway? (I know it only suppresses incorporeal undead, so apart from that...) For example, what happens if a Lich is destroyed in an AMF? Or if the phylactery is located in an AMF when the body is destroyed? Can the phylactery still grow a new body then?

A normal lich becomes a skelaton that can punch for 1d3 +/- strength damage with a fair amount of hit points. He looses his damage reduction.

He keeps his cold immunity.


A lich that can cast epic level spells.. who knows. The rules for epic level spells are basically "This is how you make your spell"

The spells balance is in the fact that the person most likely to use it and who it was designed for (a wizard or sorcerer) is the one MOST hurt by it. A wizard shuts off their opponents magic at the cost of their own.


Its only overpowered because dragons are. A creature that is both a master of physical combat and magic is stronger than the two alone. The AMF on a dragon is about the worste combo in the game... you're forced to face a killing machine with nothing better than masterwork weapons and armor.

[ericgrau]

^ Uh oh not this again. Let's just say I disagree and leave it at that. I'm not gonna restart the debate.

If Xykon could cast any epic battle spells, I think we would have seen one when he almost got beat by Soon. Cloister may be it, except perhaps for other utility spells he made. So yeah an AMF would pretty much shut down his casting if you could keep him inside of it. If you could get to his phylactery you could just destroy it anyway without using the AMF. It is in fact magical so I dunno how everything would work, but I think the point is moot anyway.

His lich abilities are supernatural, so they'd also get shut down. Oddly enough that includes his damage reduction. But his immunities are extraordinary, so they're not affected.

Redcloak's cloak is an artifact, so he might not be affected just like the no-magic virus didn't do anything to him.

[Kaytara]

^ Uh oh not this again. Let's just say I disagree and leave it at that. I'm not gonna restart the debate.


Sorry, but what debate are you referring to? Disagree with what? :smallconfused:

I've thought about the Red Mantle, but the deal with the Guardian Virus seemed to me that the cloak just protects the bearer from disease, even a freakishly powerful Epic-level designer one. Protection from disease and poison is a fairly common enchantment, it makes sense that a powerful artifact would simply have a more powerful version.
For it to be resistant to AMF as well would seem a bit random.



Its only overpowered because dragons are. A creature that is both a master of physical combat and magic is stronger than the two alone. The AMF on a dragon is about the worste combo in the game... you're forced to face a killing machine with nothing better than masterwork weapons and armor.

I meant more that the AMF is overpowered in the sense of party-style adventuring. The wizard can cast AMF and stays the hell out of the way while the rest of his combat-oriented group smash the daylights out of the enemy. Of course, this only works if the enemies are not too tough for the heroes to beat without magic.
Against a spellcaster who only has low-level mooks to back him up, though, it seems ideal. And, as anyone with RPG experience knows, the Endgame Boss of the game is very often a spellcaster who bombards you with powerful spells but is very much alone in the final fight.

[Chronos]

All artifacts are unnafected by Antimagic Field. But that still leaves us the question of precisely what the Mantle does. If it's purely defensive, it won't help much, because if you don't have any offense, eventually the enemy is going to get through or around your defenses.

[Starwaster]

Sorry, but what debate are you referring to? Disagree with what? :smallconfused:


He's probably flashing back to the recent 'Shenanigans' thread that someone got banned over because it got too heated and they got too personal with an important someone.

[Kaytara]

He's probably flashing back to the recent 'Shenanigans' thread that someone got banned over because it got too heated and they got too personal with an important someone.

Then he must have missed the point of my post. I'm not complaining that AMF didn't work the way it should work. I'm just wondering how it would work in certain other conditions.

[Raimun]

Its only overpowered because dragons are. A creature that is both a master of physical combat and magic is stronger than the two alone. The AMF on a dragon is about the worste combo in the game... you're forced to face a killing machine with nothing better than masterwork weapons and armor.

Yet the Anti-Magic Field doesn't cover the dragon completely. I guess the dragon would benefit greatly by taking the feat Widen Spell.

[Oslecamo]

Then he must have missed the point of my post. I'm not complaining that AMF didn't work the way it should work. I'm just wondering how it would work in certain other conditions.

Ok, let's review some basic facts:
1-The wizard is an evoker, banned conjuration.
2-Ranger with negative wisdom.
3-Fighter with cleric stats.
4-Bard...We all know the bard.
5-Rogue whitout backup weapon.
6-Dragon's hoards of money wasted in potions.

The sad fact is, the Oots sucks at optimization and tactics. Even if AMF could rape Xykon and all his pals, the order will never use it, because they insist on trying to win with obscure semi suicide methods, like jumping over the undead dragon and solo the epic lich.

[LuisDantas]

It's not AMF, but the same general idea was applied in the Order's first direct confrontation with Xykon. Check #094 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0094.html), #104 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), #112 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html).

Of course, in the end we did not find out how effective the spell would be. Now Greenhilt has a different spell-like effect, but on the other hand Xykon already knows about it and had time to develop countermeasures.

[Optimystik]

Its only overpowered because dragons are. A creature that is both a master of physical combat and magic is stronger than the two alone. The AMF on a dragon is about the worste combo in the game... you're forced to face a killing machine with nothing better than masterwork weapons and armor.

Pretty much this.


Redcloak and Tsukiko aren't Epic-level, so they'd be easy game in an AMF. Tsukiko is presumably a rather squishy spellcaster and would be useless without her magic. And Redcloak, while a cleric, has been shown to rely completely on his spells. He doesn't even seem to carry a weapon.

How would you keep them in it? While in the field, you have no way of increasing your speed or flying. All they'd have to do is stay out of range and swarm you with conjured creatures or orb spells (the latter of which Tsukiko possesses in spades.



Most likely this is a "house rule" or a rule flub by the giant.

No, the Giant is right by RAW. The "houserule" in this instance would be against him, no matter how reasonable or intuitive it might be.

[hamishspence]

Dragons are famously poor at magic compared to their CR though- most of their magical power is best saved for buffs, since a creature of similar level could easily win in a magical fight.

AMF plus melee is worst possible situation, as Draconomicon points out- it doesn't inconvenience the dragon much.

[Kaytara]

How would you keep them in it? While in the field, you have no way of increasing your speed or flying.

Something like just grappling them should work well enough, shouldn't it? Have the big tough fighter hold the evil spellcaster down while the others beat him up. If the villains are together, get other tough warrior types to help, like O-Chul or Lien or Hinjo. If the area is not out in the open and is at least partially enclosed, simply blocking the way would also work. Or maybe you cast Wall of Force beforehand. XD

I'm not saying this is a perfect tactic or anything. I just think, with all of the "How would you beat Xykon?" speculations we've had, this is one that handily deals with the biggest problem - his spellcasting power.


All they'd have to do is stay out of range and swarm you with conjured creatures or orb spells (the latter of which Tsukiko possesses in spades.


Conjured creatures "wink out" while in an AMF and any orb spells would be suppressed. So I don't think that would be a problem.

[hamishspence]

technically, as conjuration (Creation) spells with an Instantaneous duration, orbs thrown from outside the field won't wink out- you have to get the spellcaster inside the field to prevent orbs from working.

This is one reason Conjuration overshadows Evocation, though there are other reasons.

[Dacia Brabant]

How would you keep them in it? While in the field, you have no way of increasing your speed or flying. All they'd have to do is stay out of range and swarm you with conjured creatures or orb spells (the latter of which Tsukiko possesses in spades.

Dragons can fly in an Antimagic Field, it's an Extraordinary power not a Supernatural one. EDIT 2: Sorry I didn't see this was mentioned regarding party usage of AMF generally and not specifically the dragon. Summoned creatures wink out in an AMF so once they get in melee range say goodbye. EDIT: Sorry I didn't notice you meant Called creatures, you are correct in that regard, though I wouldn't exactly say Planar Ally is something that you can use as a swarm tactic since it takes 10 minutes to cast, it's so costly and means real risk for the creature called. You are correct about Orb spells however (though Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge so her damage with them wouldn't be great), but the dragon can get around that by say Dimension Door-ing (no reason why she couldn't have this spell) on top of Tsukiko, snatching her and flying off in round 1, casting AMF in round 2 just to be safe and chowing down on Tsuki-yaki in round 3. :smalltongue:

It's hard to say about Redcloak without knowing what the Crimson Mantle actually does. Xykon is a blaster so there's really not much he could do unless he wins initiative and beats her SR with an Energy Drain, which would make her a lot more manageable by getting rid of those pesky level 6 and 7 spell slots. So yeah, he has a decent chance but then his ECL is on par with the dragon's CR so that's appropriate.

[Optimystik]

Something like just grappling them should work well enough, shouldn't it? Have the big tough fighter hold the evil spellcaster down while the others beat him up. If the villains are together, get other tough warrior types to help, like O-Chul or Lien or Hinjo. If the area is not out in the open and is at least partially enclosed, simply blocking the way would also work. Or maybe you cast Wall of Force beforehand. XD

That's just it, how do you get close enough to grapple them and keep them inside? It only worked for the dragon because she could fly non-magically AND at a sufficient speed to overtake the already fleeing elf.


I'm not saying this is a perfect tactic or anything. I just think, with all of the "How would you beat Xykon?" speculations we've had, this is one that handily deals with the biggest problem - his spellcasting power.

While antimagic will probably play a role in his defeat, fighting a disempowered lich would be a rather anticlimactic and uninteresting fight in my opinion.


Conjured creatures "wink out" while in an AMF and any orb spells would be suppressed. So I don't think that would be a problem.

Actually, if you read AMF's entry you'll see that only "summoned" creatures wink out (i.e. creatures that are present for a duration and whose presence depends on the spell.) Conjurations with a duration of instantaneous are real for all intents and purposes and can enter antimagic fields. Creatures 'called' in this way lose spell-like and supernatural abilities like everyone else, but keep extraordinary abilities.

An example of this in core would be the "Planar Ally" line of spells. By RAW Orbs also count as being unsuppressable (if created outside the field and flung into it), though one could houserule otherwise.

[Revlid]

Of course, in the end we did not find out how effective the spell would be. Now Greenhilt has a different spell-like effect, but on the other hand Xykon already knows about it and had time to develop countermeasures.

Xykon. Develop countermeasures.

HAHAHA

[Optimystik]

Xykon. Develop countermeasures.

HAHAHA

SoD spoiler:
He was very savvy about procuring a ring that would render him immune to Right-Eye's betrayal. To paraphrase Xykon himself: "Don't confuse arrogance with ignorance."

[Molant]

The sad fact is, the Oots sucks at optimization and tactics. Even if AMF could rape Xykon and all his pals, the order will never use it, because they insist on trying to win with obscure semi suicide methods, like jumping over the undead dragon and solo the epic lich.

Such "semi-suicidal methods" tend to be the last thing expected and therefore work quite well. The trick is having the stones to try them in the first place.

[Optimystik]

Such "semi-suicidal methods" tend to be the last thing expected and therefore work quite well. The trick is having the stones to try them in the first place.

They work well if thought through. Roy had no thought in his head except "Get Xykon!" A surprisingly dumb-fighter move from such an otherwise gifted tactician, and ultimately fatal.

[Zaphrasz]

I'm pretty sure that if Xykon dies inside of an anti-magic field, nothing abnormal happens, and if his phylactery is within one, the regeneration process is suppressed until the phylactery is removed from the field.

As for the forcecage, if you go completely rules as written, the game doesn't work. Anti-magic field states that it suppresses spells being cast and magical effects. Wall of Force states that it creates a "wall of force," a magical object, not a spell. Since magical effects are suppressed in a field, you can cast Wall of Force with no problem, but the wall is immediately winked out of existence in an anti-magic field. That is clearly not the intent.

If we are willing to accept that a Wall of Force can exist in an anti-magic field, then we must accept that something made of the same thing will also work.

However, the fact that the forcecage was removed indicates that they are not the same material in the world of Order of the Stick.

[Zeful]

I'm pretty sure that if Xykon dies inside of an anti-magic field, nothing abnormal happens, and if his phylactery is within one, the regeneration process is suppressed until the phylactery is removed from the field.

As for the forcecage, if you go completely rules as written, the game doesn't work. Anti-magic field states that it suppresses spells being cast and magical effects. Wall of Force states that it creates a "wall of force," a magical object, not a spell. Since magical effects are suppressed in a field, you can cast Wall of Force with no problem, but the wall is immediately winked out of existence in an anti-magic field. That is clearly not the intent.

If we are willing to accept that a Wall of Force can exist in an anti-magic field, then we must accept that something made of the same thing will also work.

However, the fact that the forcecage was removed indicates that they are not the same material in the world of Order of the Stick.

AMF states that Wall of Force is specifically immune, so it's clear that the spell can
differentiate between what spell created the effect. So no, we don't have to accept
anything when it comes to how magic works.

If you aren't willing to believe that. Wall of Force has different properties than Forcecage, and are made of different materials (otherwise the spell would have started with "As wall of Force but" like all the Detect [Alignment] Spells, or the Cure/Inflict X wounds or any spell with progressive versions of itself in the game) and so isn't granted immunity to AMF.

[Lamech]

This assumes, of course, that he doesn't have anything related to his Epicness or Lichdom that protects him from AMFs.
Epic level magic kind of does just that. He probably will drop an epic level attack spell, and then either dispell the field or flee.

Worse, everyone's saves will be crap when compared to an epic level spell, cast by an epic level caster, if everyone is in an anti-magic field. His Cha will be 28+inherant bonuses and I think its to assume his inherant bonuses will be better. The DC will be 29+ compared to a save bonus of around 19 tops. People will go down to an epic spell...

And finally, they will have trouble hurting Xykon 'cause of damage reduction (at least I think the blunt weapon part stays; Roy and Durkoun could but no one else could and Xykon will still have a good attack bonus, so he can fight back at least some what.

And thats ignoring day long buffs he could have pre-cast, The crimsion mantle and the monster in the dark. Also in an anti-magic field their AC will drop big time so all those low-level archers will become pretty dangerous.

P.S. I wonder if V will have an great idea from this "Xykon will be a weak skeleton while Roy will remain a mighty warrior!"

[hamishspence]

wall of force is abjuration, not conjuration, it is not a "Creation" effect.

Why it is immune to antimagic- when other force spells are not, we don't know. Was it like that in previous editions?

[Chronos]

technically, as conjuration (Creation) spells with an Instantaneous duration, orbs thrown from outside the field won't wink out- you have to get the spellcaster inside the field to prevent orbs from working.Also technically, the orb spells Tsukiko knows aren't conjuration(creation), they're evocation. Note that her spell is called "electric orb", not "orb of electricity", and she talks about "looking up evocation spells that use attack rolls, not saves". So she's using the 3.0 versions of the spells, not the 3.5.

[Optimystik]

Also technically, the orb spells Tsukiko knows aren't conjuration(creation), they're evocation. Note that her spell is called "electric orb", not "orb of electricity", and she talks about "looking up evocation spells that use attack rolls, not saves". So she's using the 3.0 versions of the spells, not the 3.5.

While this is true, it clearly shows that she is capable of researching new spells from non-core sources. Any other spells from Spell Compendium in the strip? It may already be in use.

As for other instantaneous conjurations, SoD has Dorukan casting Gate, one of the most kickass battles I've ever seen in this strip, which could certainly get around an AMF in a very flashy way.

[hamishspence]

the orb spells have a long history. First versions were in Tomb and Blood. in Miniatures Handbook (early 3.5) Lesser Electric Orb and the other lesser ones were already Conjuration but hadn't yet received the name switch to Orb Of Electricity, etc. In Complete Arcane the names were switched, and the standard orbs reappeared. And finally they appeared in Spell Compendium.

not sure what other obscure spells have appeared yet.

[Optimystik]

Another explanation is that Tsukiko has an attention-span to rival Xykon. She just might not have kept as up to date on the "universal laws" as Vaarsuvius has, and thinks the orbs are still evocations. I'm not saying she's as dumb as Crystal, but she's certainly not the sharpest MT in the shed.

[Logalmier]

Also that would make a pretty lame ending... no flashy magical effects or attacks. Just Roy hitting Xykon over and over.

[Xesirin]

Also that would make a pretty lame ending... no flashy magical effects or attacks. Just Roy hitting Xykon over and over.

I dunno, it's not impossible to make a beat-down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) with a sword look dramatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html).

Just saying. :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

I dunno, it's not impossible to make a beat-down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) with a sword look dramatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html).

Just saying. :smalltongue:

That kind of dramatic battle requires both combatants to have swords. :smallconfused:

[Thane of Fife]

Why it is immune to antimagic- when other force spells are not, we don't know. Was it like that in previous editions?

While I don't have my 2e PHB on hand at the moment, I am relatively certain that nothing was immune to anti-magic in earlier editions, to the point that a creature with magic resistance could walk through a forcecage if it's magic resistance roll was good enough.

I don't recall there being an equivalent of the Anti-Magic Field spell either, though. But I might just be forgetting things.

[Chronos]

not sure what other obscure spells have appeared yet.I think that the only non-core, non-homebrew spells we've seen are Tsukiko's orbs and Xykon's Ghostform.

[SoC175]

It has a slightly less than 50% chance of working presuming Xyklon only has 21 caster levels:
Only on epic spells, not on spells of an epic caster. Xykon's level 0-9 spells would be as useless as anyone elses