Binding Kiddie Souls?

[MammonAzrael]

OK, two things:

1. I'm thinking the spell the ABD got on two scroll is Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm). It seems to fit just right. Anyone think it's something different?

2. I don't think she is casting Soul Bind to torment V's kids forever, but rather to prevent V from resurrecting them. Since the ABD cannot get her son back, it is fitting for her vengeance to insure that V cannot get h** back. The extra-painful deaths I attribute to either screwing with V more or her Evil alignment, either one works, I feel.

What say you, Playground?

[pendell]

I think you're right.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kaytara]

2. I don't think she is casting Soul Bind to torment V's kids forever, but rather to prevent V from resurrecting them. Since the ABD cannot get her son back, it is fitting for her vengeance to insure that V cannot get h** back. The extra-painful deaths I attribute to either screwing with V more or her Evil alignment, either one works, I feel.

What say you, Playground?

Yeah, Soul Bind sounds about right.

I don't think she JUST wants to use it to prevent Resurrection, though. (Which, by the way, makes her revenge completely disproportionate, as she isn't separated from her son in the afterlife.) She's also using it because she knows that being imprisoned like that is torturous for a soul, and she knows that Vaarsuvius knows that, too. Not only will V be unable to raise them, he'll have to deal with the fact that they're trapped in eternal anguish because of him.

[Tempest Fennac]

Is it me or is it ironic that the dragon could have got a True Ressurrection by now? (Especially considering how much those Soul Bind scrlls probably cost.)

[MammonAzrael]

I don't think she JUST wants to use it to prevent Resurrection, though. (Which, by the way, makes her revenge completely disproportionate, as she isn't separated from her son in the afterlife.) She's also using it because she knows that being imprisoned like that is torturous for a soul, and she knows that Vaarsuvius knows that, too. Not only will V be unable to raise them, he'll have to deal with the fact that they're trapped in eternal anguish because of him.

I'm not seeing where it says that being imprisoned by Soul Bind is torturous for the bound soul. :smallconfused: Where are you getting that?

Also, I don't know why the ABD hasn't tried to get her son back yet. My two guesses are either that she doesn't have access to anyone capable of casting True Resurrection, and the other being that for some reason even TR wouldn't work. And I would assume that at least one of the questions she asked the Oracle was related to raising her son.

[Kaytara]

I'm not seeing where it says that being imprisoned by Soul Bind is torturous for the bound soul. :smallconfused: Where are you getting that?


Eh, it came up a few times in the discussion about V's alignment, specifically his suggestion to bind Nale's soul to prevent him from getting raised.

[hamishspence]

And in the context of the strip, Haley, at least, seems to believe its Evil.

[Quorothorn]

I'm not seeing where it says that being imprisoned by Soul Bind is torturous for the bound soul. :smallconfused: Where are you getting that?

Just think about the implications of being bound to a tiny sphere of nothing for eternity. It is inherently torturous.


Also, I don't know why the ABD hasn't tried to get her son back yet. My two guesses are either that she doesn't have access to anyone capable of casting True Resurrection, and the other being that for some reason even TR wouldn't work. And I would assume that at least one of the questions she asked the Oracle was related to raising her son.

That's my guess too. Maybe dragons, like outsiders, can't be raised?

[hamishspence]

Now there are non-evil ways of binding somebody for eternity (Temporal Stasis) but these get around "messing with souls" and the prisoner's perception of time.

[Tempest Fennac]

The idea is that being stuck in a gem with nothing to do is torturous. The spell itself isn;t evil (I'd say that doing it to Nale and his buddies would class as Good due to how dangerous they are). I always thought Dragons could be raised to be honest.

[MammonAzrael]

Now there are non-evil ways of binding somebody for eternity (Temporal Stasis) but these get around "messing with souls" and the prisoner's perception of time.

Interesting point, but that still leaves the kids technically alive, which doesn't really flow with the style of vengeance the ABD is aiming for.

Quorothorn - As I said in the main discussion thread, no where does it state that the bound soul is aware of the passing of time, and stuck in an eternal prison to go mad. While it doesn't say anything to the contrary either, I'm inclined to believe that if slowing going insane was part of being bound by Soul Bind, then the spell would have the Evil descriptor, and that it's lack of being Evil means it functions more like a Temporal Stasis for the soul. But that's just a personal opinion.

[Quorothorn]

Interesting point, but that still leaves the kids technically alive, which doesn't really flow with the style of vengeance the ABD is aiming for.

Quorothorn - As I said in the main discussion thread, no where does it state that the bound soul is aware of the passing of time, and stuck in an eternal prison to go mad. While it doesn't say anything to the contrary either, I'm inclined to believe that if slowing going insane was part of being bound by Soul Bind, then the spell would have the Evil descriptor, and that it's lack of being Evil means it functions more like a Temporal Stasis for the soul. But that's just a personal opinion.

Man, it's hard carrying on conversations across topics.:smallsmile: My reply was that SoD proves that Soul Bound folks are fully conscious, at least in OOTS.

[hamishspence]

Imprison Soul is similar and Evil (and BoVD recommended adding Evil descriptor to spells like Trap The Soul)

Main difference- the spell works on the living, not just a newly dead body.

[MammonAzrael]

Indeed, it was just pointed out that Soul Bind was used in SoD, and the souls were aware. So I guess then that the ABD is just a vindictive b****, and is (surprise) quite evil in her vengeance. *shrug* Sucks to be V's kids.

Though it does give him a quest to carry out the rest of his days if the ABD successfully kills and Plane Shifts.

[Kaytara]

Interesting point, but that still leaves the kids technically alive, which doesn't really flow with the style of vengeance the ABD is aiming for.

Quorothorn - As I said in the main discussion thread, no where does it state that the bound soul is aware of the passing of time, and stuck in an eternal prison to go mad. While it doesn't say anything to the contrary either, I'm inclined to believe that if slowing going insane was part of being bound by Soul Bind, then the spell would have the Evil descriptor, and that it's lack of being Evil means it functions more like a Temporal Stasis for the soul. But that's just a personal opinion.

As it was already answered in the discussion thread (twice, no less XD), we know from Start of Darkness that Soul Bound creatures in OotS land are completely aware of what is happening.

EDIT: Meh, I keep getting ninja'd. XD

[Quorothorn]

Indeed, it was just pointed out that Soul Bind was used in SoD, and the souls were aware. So I guess then that the ABD is just a vindictive b****, and is (surprise) quite evil in her vengeance. *shrug* Sucks to be V's kids.

Though it does give him a quest to carry out the rest of his days if the ABD successfully kills and Plane Shifts.

True, true. I'm still hoping for there being enough force in the immediate area to take on the dragon, though. Maybe the elven bus driver (or whatever) is a Retired Badass?

[raphfrk]

Indeed, it was just pointed out that Soul Bind was used in SoD, and the souls were aware. So I guess then that the ABD is just a vindictive b****, and is (surprise) quite evil in her vengeance. *shrug* Sucks to be V's kids.

Though it does give him a quest to carry out the rest of his days if the ABD successfully kills and Plane Shifts.

The dragon says "bind the souls to me". Does that mean that the dragon itself counts as a gem, i.e. to free them requires that the dragon is killed?

Also, assuming that gems are used, there is the issue of how many. At least if only 1 gem is used, they wouldn't be completely isolated.

[Krrth]

I do have to say, I was immediately struck by a loophole in that spell. A wish can't free the trapped soul. Fine. The value of the gem containing the soul is well within the guidelines of summoning by wish.

[hamishspence]

yes, but retrieving the specific gem, rather than a random one of same value, might be more difficult, depending on DM. Stray hairs of deity- low value. Usefulness with simulcrum- too useful. Result- DM says wish can't retrieve divine or plot-specific items.

[Krrth]

yes, but retrieving the specific gem, rather than a random one of same value, might be more difficult, depending on DM. Stray hairs of deity- low value. Usefulness with simulcrum- too useful. Result- DM says wish can't retrieve divine or plot-specific items.

But that makes it a house rule, although a reasonable one.

Of course, another route is to simply wish to know exactly where the the gems were, and another wish to transport himself and the rest of his party there.

[hamishspence]

thats why dragon would use various anti-scrying effects. Some outclass even wish. or get around it- AMF.

[Krrth]

thats why dragon would use various anti-scrying effects. Some outclass even wish. or get around it- AMF.

Does it? If the dragon had to use scrolls to soul bind, most of those powers are beyond its ability.

from the SRD on wish

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions.

It would most definitely run into GM territory, but a case can be made for it working.

Worst case scenario, V hits epic level and researches a great big ball of cheese.

[hamishspence]

One could make the case that since Wish isn't listed as ignoring AMF, you can't Wish yourself into area of one, or Wish anything out of area.

And Wishing another creature to your location- should probably require a save if creature is unwilling.

[Krrth]

You can also make a case for AMF being considered a local condition, in which case wish explicitly ignores it.

You are correct in that transporting a unwilling target gives a will save and must check vs/ spell resistance.

[Wanton Soup]

But that makes it a house rule, although a reasonable one.

Of course, another route is to simply wish to know exactly where the the gems were, and another wish to transport himself and the rest of his party there.

Which turns out to be inside a small casket. Which you rematerialise in the same area as, causing massive bloody explosion as your innards become your outards in order to get away from another solid object.

[Krrth]

Which turns out to be inside a small casket. Which you rematerialise in the same area as, causing massive bloody explosion as your innards become your outards in order to get away from another solid object.

Thus the first wish.

[MammonAzrael]

Of course each of these Wishes cost 5000 EXP, and are at least 3 levels away for V. And by the time he's climbed those levels, how long have his kids been trapped?

Also, strictly speaking, I don't see any transport object ability on Wish. Adding anything else is also DM specific. (Of course, I could just be blind. :smalltongue:)

Either way, with the effort the ABD went to in the first place, there is no justifiable way for her not to take heavy precautions against ways of finding her.

[Wanton Soup]

Thus the first wish.

Which doesn't change the second wish which YOU said was:


to transport himself and the rest of his party there.

You never said "safely".

[Krrth]

Which doesn't change the second wish which YOU said was:



You never said "safely".

Don't need to. Since you know exactly where the gems are, you would know they are in a chest or whatever. Since transporting yourself there is within the written parameters of the wish, there is no chance of it going wrong. Unlike in 2nd edition, wishes only mess with you when you go outside the listed effects.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

[Woodsman]

The reason the dragon hasn't gotten a True Resurrection is because his ashes dissolved in the swamp. She mentions it in #628

[Quorothorn]

The reason the dragon hasn't gotten a True Resurrection is because his ashes dissolved in the swamp. She mentions it in #628

You don't need a body for True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm).

[Woodsman]

Huh. So it would seem. I'm think of Resurrection, then.

[Oxymoron]

If I remember correctly, a true ressurection costs about 25 000 gp. And as the dragon said, her hoard was stolen. She probably had just enough cash to make or buy the two necromatic scrolls.

[Silverraptor]

If I remember correctly, a true ressurection costs about 25 000 gp. And as the dragon said, her hoard was stolen. She probably had just enough cash to make or buy the two necromatic scrolls.

But where did she get the gold in the first place? would she really carry some with her when she left?

[David Argall]

She's also using it because she knows that being imprisoned like that is torturous for a soul,

SoD While we can assume a Soul Bind is not appreciated by the soul, Xykon imprisons Lillian for over 20 years with a Soul Bind and she still appears reasonably sane. So the idea that Soul Bind is any worse than prison time is at least suspect in OOTS.

[Quorothorn]

But where did she get the gold in the first place? would she really carry some with her when she left?

Depends on how many cues she's taking from Smaug (who had treasure embedded in his hide).

[Ozymandias9]

If I remember correctly, a true ressurection costs about 25 000 gp. And as the dragon said, her hoard was stolen. She probably had just enough cash to make or buy the two necromatic scrolls.

It's also been pointed out in comic that we don't know if there are any clerics in the comic-world capable of casting the spell. The only one the characters even suggested is Redcloak. The scrolls (presuming they are Soul Bind), in contrast, could have been made by a wizard or sorcerer of appropriate level (or a cleric of appropriate level that died some time ago).

Edit: For clarity, a cleric of sufficient level to create the scrolls (presuming they are indeed Soul Bind) would be able to cast True Resurrection. It's worth noting, however, that a wizard or sorcerer capable of casting the spell could also restore the body and Resurrect it via two wishes, as explained elsewhere in the thread. She would merely have to convince them to part with the 10k xp.

[The Bookworm]

Xykon could technically perform the effect of a True Resurrection, but it would take two wish spells, which would cost a load of XP. (Persuading him would be near impossible, I'd imagine.)

[Silverraptor]

Xykon could technically perform the effect of a True Resurrection, but it would take two wish spells, which would cost a load of XP. (Persuading him would be near impossible, I'd imagine.)

Near impossible? I would imagine beyond impossible.

[Oxymoron]

But where did she get the gold in the first place? would she really carry some with her when she left?

How should I know? Maybe she stole them? Maybe she borrowed from her uncle? She is certainly strong enough to carry some with her.

Anyway, I'm assuming that she will cast the spell soul bind: Focus: A black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the binding is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched.

And since V's children are.......well children, they only have 1 HD each. The spells would only cost the dragon 2000 gp to cast. Still expensive for a dirt farmer, but not for a dragon, and far from the cost of casting the true ressurection spell.

Yes, I am clever :smallbiggrin:

[Kaytara]

SoD While we can assume a Soul Bind is not appreciated by the soul, Xykon imprisons Lillian for over 20 years with a Soul Bind and she still appears reasonably sane. So the idea that Soul Bind is any worse than prison time is at least suspect in OOTS.

Mmm, I don't think Lirian is a good indication here. She has a very strong soul (as expressed by Dorukan), and is an Epic-level elf druid with very high wisdom. I'm sure she's better at coming to terms with eternal imprisonment than a child who's barely out of diapers.

[magic9mushroom]

Xykon could technically perform the effect of a True Resurrection, but it would take two wish spells, which would cost a load of XP. (Persuading him would be near impossible, I'd imagine.)

No. He couldn't duplicate True Res, unless he has some uber-epic spell that's "Wish on Steroids", which is highly unlikely. (He couldn't just make a True Res epic spell because the Life seed is available only to divine casters.)

What you're thinking of is Wishing the body back and then Wish(Resurrection)ing in back to life. That isn't the same as True Res - for one thing you lose a level from that, while you don't with an actual True Res.

[magic9mushroom]

Xykon could technically perform the effect of a True Resurrection, but it would take two wish spells, which would cost a load of XP. (Persuading him would be near impossible, I'd imagine.)

No. He couldn't duplicate True Res, unless he has some uber-epic spell that's "Wish on Steroids", which is highly unlikely. (He couldn't just make a True Res epic spell because the Life seed is available only to divine casters.)

What you're thinking of is Wishing the body back and then Wish(Resurrection)ing in back to life. That isn't the same as True Res - for one thing you lose a level from that, while you don't with an actual True Res.

[Tempest Fennac]

Considering how powerful Momma Dragon is, I'd have thought she would have been able to persuade Xykon to help if she was willing to work for him (which admittedly may not be likely).

[Balgus]

Was reading up on Black holes and this discussion just sparked a moment of catharsis. What if the bound soul doesnt just sit in black emptiness for all eternity - as if freefalling through space, but rather being trapped is like entering the event horizon of a black hole. There time actually stops: motion, perception of time, everything ceases to move. So the bound soul would effectively be in stasis - frozen in time. Unable to do, think, feel, perceive anything.

[Morthis]

Was reading up on Black holes and this discussion just sparked a moment of catharsis. What if the bound soul doesnt just sit in black emptiness for all eternity - as if freefalling through space, but rather being trapped is like entering the event horizon of a black hole. There time actually stops: motion, perception of time, everything ceases to move. So the bound soul would effectively be in stasis - frozen in time. Unable to do, think, feel, perceive anything.

SoD shows us that the soul trapped in there is very much aware of what is going on.


SoD While we can assume a Soul Bind is not appreciated by the soul, Xykon imprisons Lillian for over 20 years with a Soul Bind and she still appears reasonably sane. So the idea that Soul Bind is any worse than prison time is at least suspect in OOTS.

As already mentioned, she was an epic level druid with a strong spirit compared to a little kid. She knew that there was an epic level wizard who would do anything within his power to save her. She also knew exactly what happened to her. The little kid would be trapped somewhere, not know what happened, and probably be far less able to deal with being imprisoned like that.

I also believe that the giant had Xykon trap Durokan in the same gem as Lillian for a reason. While it still shows 2 of the good guys suffering a punishment for all eternity at the hands of Xykon, they are now together, which gives the readers a little bit of closure to their otherwise horrible fate.

If the dragon doesn't show that same kindness, and doesn't imprison them together, they will spend all eternity alone. Even Lillian "only" had to endure 20-some years alone before being joined by her love.

[Ozymandias9]

No. He couldn't duplicate True Res, unless he has some uber-epic spell that's "Wish on Steroids", which is highly unlikely. (He couldn't just make a True Res epic spell because the Life seed is available only to divine casters.)

What you're thinking of is Wishing the body back and then Wish(Resurrection)ing in back to life. That isn't the same as True Res - for one thing you lose a level from that, while you don't with an actual True Res.

True, but the lack of a body was the salient portion when it was discussed in the comic (#579).

For the non-gamers in the crowd, the de-deading spells are:

Raise Dead

5th level spell (available to a 7th level cleric)
Requires whole body- any missing parts would still be missing on raising, and would require a regenerate spell to heal (a cleric with access to regeneration would have access to Resurrection as well)
Subject looses a level (or 2 Con if lvl 1)
Subject is only healed to minimal living levels. Normal poisons/diseases are cured, magical afflictions are not. Ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1, but not further healed.
1 in 2 chance of any prepared spells/spell slots being lost in addition to spells lost to level decrease
limited to 1 day/caster level after time of death
Cannot effect Outsiders, Elementals, Constructs, Undead, the remains of someone who had been undead, someone killed by a Death Effect, or someone who died of old age.
Costs 5k gold worth of diamonds


Resurrection

7th level spell (available to a 13th level cleric)
Requires a portion of the body (can be small, must have been part of the body at death)
Subject looses a level (or 2 Con if lvl 1)
Subject returns fully healed, free of any afflictions, and with all prepared spells/spell slots still available (excepting those made unavailable by level loss)
limited to 10 years/caster level after time of death
Cannot effect Outsiders, Elementals, Constructs, Undead, the remains of someone who had been undead, or someone who died of old age
Functions on those killed by Death Effects
10k gold worth of diamonds


True Resurrection

9th level spell (available to a 17th level cleric)
No body required: requires only unambiguous knowledge of the subject
No loss of level or Con
Subject returns fully healed, free of any afflictions, and with all prepared spells/spell slots still available
limited to 10 years/caster level after time of death
Functions on Outsiders and Elementals
Functions on someone who was turned into an undead then destroyed, but not on someone currently undead
Does not function on Constructs or those who died of old age
25k gold worth of diamonds


There's also a 4th level druid spell called Reincarnation (available to 7th level druids) that makes a new body for the subject. It has the same remains requirements and level loss effect as resurrection, but doesn't cover those killed by death effects. The new body is rolled for off of a table, so it's a bit of a gamble. The precise rules on the effects of the new form changed a tad between 3.0 and 3.5. Other than the fact that humanoids get a humanoid body of some kind in 3.5, I honestly can't keep the minutiae straight without consulting the books.

As said earlier, an 17th level Wizard or 18th Sorcerer can use Wish (a 9th level spell) to replicate Resurrection at the cost of 5000XP and the 10k gold worth of diamonds Resurrection requires. If no body is available, another wish can be used to bring it into being at the cost of another 5k XP.

Reincarnation and Raise Dead spells are technically within the range of Limited Wish (a spell available 14th level sorcerers and 13th level wizards) spell replication function. This spell only costs 300xp to cast, but since restoring the dead is explicitly covered in the rules of Wish, a lot of DMs will house rule it out.

[Tempest Fennac]

Here's the table: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Reincarnate . The 3.0 table can be found on page 18 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Spells-Druid.pdf .

[Ozymandias9]

The 3.0 table can be found on page 18 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Spells-Druid.pdf .

Actually, that has the 3.0 reincarnation spell descriptions (there were 3 versions in 3.0). The tables are on 18 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Creatures.pdf

And I apologize for dragging the thread off topic. None of these will directly counter a Soul Bind.

Back on the main topic, Soul Bind doesn't quite fit if we take the dragon's "bind their souls to me" literally. As Oxymoron pointed out, Soul Bind binds to a gem, not the caster. Might not be meant literally, and even if it is a subtle enough variation that it would barely be notable as a house rule: you could explain it away in game as a function of some wizard's spell creation research.

[Optimystik]

SoD While we can assume a Soul Bind is not appreciated by the soul, Xykon imprisons Lillian for over 20 years with a Soul Bind and she still appears reasonably sane. So the idea that Soul Bind is any worse than prison time is at least suspect in OOTS.

I would have thought our previous discussion would have disabused you of such narrow notions. Please note that on page 107 of SoD, Lirian says the gem is "Not a prison anymore" despite still being imprisoned. Clearly the idea of it being a prison to HER has very little to do with mere inability to leave.

Oh, and there's also the niggling little fact that she's an epic level wisdom-based class. They tend to be a bit more stable mentally, you know.

[MickJay]

The dragon might not even be aware of the existence of True Res, there's nothing indicating she's an expert on things clerical; she might know about Resurrection, since she made a point that her son's remains got dissolved in the swamp (no part of body left), but if indeed high level clerics are so rare that there might not even be one of level 17+, then the knowledge of highest level clerical spells should be quite obscure as well.

On a different note, the dragon made it clear that it will make itself impossible to find for V - but Vaarsuvius already made quite an effort in researching divination spells of all kinds, so wouldn't it be possible for him to eventually track down the dragon (even if she moved to a different plane) with yet another spell he made? Assuming the dragon's plan works, of course.

[Wanton Soup]

I would have thought our previous discussion would have disabused you of such narrow notions. Please note that on page 107 of SoD, Lirian says the gem is "Not a prison anymore" despite still being imprisoned. Clearly the idea of it being a prison to HER has very little to do with mere inability to leave.

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Talk about reading into something that you want to see...

She is still imprisoned. She cannot leave. But the only place she'd be and the only thing she'd care about where she was was to be near her lover.

It is no longer a prison to her since she is with the one she loves for eternity.

NOT THAT IT ISN'T A PRISON.

[Snake-Aes]

I'm not seeing where it says that being imprisoned by Soul Bind is torturous for the bound soul. :smallconfused: Where are you getting that?
Try living the rest of your theoretically infinite afterlife within a gem, maybe locked whenever it could be.
I'd be driven insane after but a few weeks if I knew what I had to expect.

[Wanton Soup]

Try living the rest of your theoretically infinite afterlife within a gem, maybe locked whenever it could be.
I'd be driven insane after but a few weeks if I knew what I had to expect.

Mind you, that's where Xykon goes and gets it wrong. If he wanted to cause the two epic level goodies more pain, he should have merely killed and destroyed Dorukan and left Ms whats-her-face in the gem.

An eternity in heaven without her is hell for Dorukan and an eternity without Dorukan is hell for her.

Together? Well, it ain't heaven, but the #1 spot for it is filled.

[Snake-Aes]

True, but I was referring mostly at the kids comment. Lirian and Dorukan are relatively fine.

[Optimystik]

It is no longer a prison to her since she is with the one she loves for eternity.

NOT THAT IT ISN'T A PRISON.

Yes, that's what I said. Were the caps necessary?

[King of Nowhere]

You can use wish to replicate any level 8 or lower wizard spell, or any 7 level or lower non wizard spell. If it was of a school barred to you, the limit is level 6 wizard and level 5 non wizard. Using this effect has no XP cost. At least in edition 3.0.
So, you could use wish to emulate every scrying effect, then wish to teleport there. Teleport will get you in the nearest physically accessible location. All that at no XP cost. Also, you can scry on the dragon rather than the gem, and with a few charming spells he will reveal everything. It don't seem an impossible task for a level 17th party (who, incidentally, would be much stronger than the dragon)

[Wanton Soup]

So, you could use wish to emulate every scrying effect, then wish to teleport there. Teleport will get you in the nearest physically accessible location. All that at no XP cost. Also, you can scry on the dragon rather than the gem, and with a few charming spells he will reveal everything. It don't seem an impossible task for a level 17th party (who, incidentally, would be much stronger than the dragon)

But if the DM doesn't WANT it that easy, then you must be very careful about what you wish for. Because, rather like the monkey's paw, you'll get your wish and then wish you didn't have it.

And a dragon would know how to block any of that. There are PLENTY of counter spells for that.

[Wanton Soup]

Yes, that's what I said. Were the caps necessary?
Sorry then, DA's spoliering it and the slowness of this site meant I missed out

Dave:


"While we can assume a Soul Bind is not appreciated by the soul, Xykon imprisons Lillian for over 20 years with a Soul Bind and she still appears reasonably sane. So the idea that Soul Bind is any worse than prison time is at least suspect in OOTS"

Uh, people manage 20 years in prison no problem. Months in solitary no problem AT ALL.

Now an elf lives 10x longer. Years are like months to them.

She's a druid. Time doesn't mean much to druids (timeless body and all that).

So what are you trying to prove with that?

[Snake-Aes]

Sorry then, DA's spoliering it and the slowness of this site meant I missed out

Dave:


"While we can assume a Soul Bind is not appreciated by the soul, Xykon imprisons Lillian for over 20 years with a Soul Bind and she still appears reasonably sane. So the idea that Soul Bind is any worse than prison time is at least suspect in OOTS"

Uh, people manage 20 years in prison no problem. Months in solitary no problem AT ALL.

Now an elf lives 10x longer. Years are like months to them.

She's a druid. Time doesn't mean much to druids (timeless body and all that).

So what are you trying to prove with that?

You're taking confinement's solitude much more lightly than it actually is. A single week without contact with anyone, with absolutely nothing to do outside your mind, you must be really good at entertaining your mind with itself, or you WILL feel bad.

[Wanton Soup]

You're taking confinement's solitude much more lightly than it actually is. A single week without contact with anyone, with absolutely nothing to do outside your mind, you must be really good at entertaining your mind with itself, or you WILL feel bad.

a) I'm not saying that solitary confinement is not torture. That's why it gets used after all

b) I AM saying that just because an epic level elven druid didn't seem to have done insane after 20 years isn't proof that the soul binding is not a problem. 20 years to a creature that lives 1000 years and has reached a level where her body doesn't age isn't much of a proof of ANYTHING.

Ta.

[Snake-Aes]

You're confusing me. Your previous post sounded nothing more than an attempt to say confinement is no problem at all.

She's an elf. Time bothers her less, true.
She's got a crapton of wisdom. She can handle the solitude much better, true.
She's a druid, while timeless body has no meaning as a soul, it means even more that time is just not a strain, true.

But.. that doesn't really make a difference in the main case (team kids bound). The difference is insane, and Lirian's the prime exception to that kind of thing.

[Wanton Soup]

You're confusing me. Your previous post sounded nothing more than an attempt to say confinement is no problem at all.

She's an elf. Time bothers her less, true.
She's got a crapton of wisdom. She can handle the solitude much better, true.
She's a druid, while timeless body has no meaning as a soul, it means even more that time is just not a strain, true.

But.. that doesn't really make a difference in the main case (team kids bound). The difference is insane, and Lirian's the prime exception to that kind of thing.

Elf. Epic Level. Druid.

Not a common combination and so "Well, Lirian was OK after 20 years, so that MUST mean that Soul Binding is no torture" is no such thing.

We say same thing.

[Snake-Aes]

Elf. Epic Level. Druid.

Not a common combination and so "Well, Lirian was OK after 20 years, so that MUST mean that Soul Binding is no torture" is no such thing.

We say same thing.

So this all was some kind of disagreement at agreeing with what we already agreed with long before this thread even started? Time to agree at agreeing since it's better than disagreeing at agreeing with a disagreement andoo shiny!

[Optimystik]

So this all was some kind of disagreement at agreeing with what we already agreed with long before this thread even started? Time to agree at agreeing since it's better than disagreeing at agreeing with a disagreement andoo shiny!

I- you-
*head explodes violently*

[Wanton Soup]

I- you-
*head explodes violently*

Be thankful the pressure was relieved that way.

I wasn't so lucky.
:smallfurious:

Damn I hate a cold...

[Assassin89]

As soul bind requires a black sapphire gem costing about 1000gp per hit dice, I would expect a minimum value of 3,000 gp for the black sapphire. As for the dragon binding the souls to herself, how do we know that the gem is not embedded in the hide?

By the time a dragon matures to the age of great wyrm, hundreds of gems and coins may be imbedded in its hide.

[Snake-Aes]

As soul bind requires a black sapphire gem costing about 1000gp per hit dice, I would expect a minimum value of 3,000 gp for the black sapphire.

Why 3000? Two kids, two standard issue 1kgp gems. There's no reason to believe they would have anything over a single hit dice.
Heck, for all it matters they are level 0.


As for the dragon binding the souls to herself, how do we know that the gem is not embedded in the hide?
By the time a dragon matures to the age of great wyrm, hundreds of gems and coins may be imbedded in its hide.


Well, Mamma dragon is Ancient, not Great Wyrm. Big diff there.

My bet is the spell from BoVD that binds children to the person so they share damage the host takes.