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Lyndworm
2009-02-06, 08:35 PM
We all know that Warshapers are dangerous business, but have you ever really thought about the wording of the Morphic Weapons ability?

I was re-reading it today, and it seems that you can add an unlimited amount of natural attacks, and increase the damage an unlimited amount of times. It even seems like you could increase the damage of attacks you add!

In an hour, a fifth level Changeling could sprout 240 colossal tentacles.

Please tell me there's something I'm missing, here. Is this possible by RAW?

The Glyphstone
2009-02-06, 08:39 PM
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Technically yes.

Alleine
2009-02-06, 08:53 PM
How does it get the tentacles up to colossal? I thought that was only for natural weapons you already possessed.

Lyndworm
2009-02-06, 09:01 PM
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Technically yes.

Your amazing linguistic prowess shall not soon be forgotten. :smalltongue:




How does it get the tentacles up to colossal? I thought that was only for natural weapons you already possessed.

It's for natural weapons that the creature posesses, it doesn't mention anything about from where they come.

It's obvious that you're not supposed to be able to do this, but RAW I'm pretty sure you can.

Alleine
2009-02-06, 09:16 PM
It's for natural weapons that the creature posesses, it doesn't mention anything about from where they come.

It says weapons that the warshaper's form already possesses. Which could be argued either way really. I think.
The warshaper's form being a changeling means it doesn't have any natural weapons. So that means just 240 regular tentacles. heh
Although you could also say that *poof* that tentacle you just grew by virtue of warshaper is now a natural weapon, and since you possess a natural weapon in this form now, you should be able to up its damage. Seems kinda iffy to me though.


And just to make the image of this look slightly less ridiculous, the text says that the weapons only deal damage as if they were larger, not that they are. So no writhing core of flesh from which an unholy number of colossal tentacles are sprouting. :smallwink:

Lyndworm
2009-02-06, 09:26 PM
It says weapons that the warshaper's form already possesses. Which could be argued either way really. I think.
The warshaper's form being a changeling means it doesn't have any natural weapons. So that means just 240 regular tentacles. heh
Although you could also say that *poof* that tentacle you just grew by virtue of warshaper is now a natural weapon, and since you possess a natural weapon in this form now, you should be able to up its damage. Seems kinda iffy to me though.

This is basically the jist of my post.



And just to make the image of this look slightly less ridiculous, the text says that the weapons only deal damage as if they were larger, not that they are. So no writhing core of flesh from which an unholy number of colossal tentacles are sprouting. :smallwink:

I'm well aware of that. Can you imagine if they were actually that big? They'd be what, 20-25 feet long and 6 feet around? I can't even imagine it.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-06, 09:35 PM
I'm well aware of that. Can you imagine if they were actually that big? They'd be what, 20-25 feet long and 6 feet around? I can't even imagine it. I'm sure you can, question is do you want to :smallwink:

Bandededed
2009-02-06, 09:38 PM
...

Somehow, this makes me think of /d/...

*shudder*

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-06, 10:27 PM
Multiple bonuses from the same source never stack, including size bonuses to natural weapon damage from Morphic Weapons. It does not explicitly say this, but it doesn't have to, characters are limited to only one size growth per natural weapon.

One balanced fix is to limit a character to gaining only however many of whatever types of natural weapons as what forms he can assume. For example, a Druid 8/ Warshaper 1 can take the form of a Giant Octopus, so if he wants to grow tentacles he would be limited to eight. A Druid 15/ Warshaper 1 can take the form of a Giant Squid, so he would be limited to ten tentacles.

Another solution is to limit the natural weapons grown to whatever appendages the current form already has. For example, a Druid with the feat Frozen Wild Shape who can take the form of a 12-headed Cryohydra would not be able to grow twelve bite attacks unless his current form already has twelve mouths. In this case, the tentacle argument would also be moot since the character would not be able to make additional tentacles sprout out of their current form. A form that already has (a) horn(s) of some sort would be able to gain a Gore attack if it doesn't already have one, a form that already has a tail can gain a tail attack, etc.

Finally, a Changeling using their racial Minor Change Shape is arguably still in their own form, just another version of it that disguises them as another. The War Shaper's class features only function when the character is in a form other than their own, stated just above weapon and armor proficiencies in the class feature descriptions. A character disguised as another form is not actually in a form other than their own, just like a character under the effects of an Enlarge Person spell is not in a form other than their own.

Lyndworm
2009-02-07, 12:42 AM
Multiple bonuses from the same source never stack, including size bonuses to natural weapon damage from Morphic Weapons. It does not explicitly say this, but it doesn't have to, characters are limited to only one size growth per natural weapon.

I think you're right, actually. Can you give tell me where they say this, though? I can't think of where I've read it.



Finally, a Changeling using their racial Minor Change Shape is arguably still in their own form, just another version of it that disguises them as another. The War Shaper's class features only function when the character is in a form other than their own, stated just above weapon and armor proficiencies in the class feature descriptions. A character disguised as another form is not actually in a form other than their own, just like a character under the effects of an Enlarge Person spell is not in a form other than their own.

It's arguable, yes. Strange that they could take the class but gain no benefit, though.

jcsw
2009-02-07, 03:02 AM
Multiple bonuses from the same source never stack, including size bonuses to natural weapon damage from Morphic Weapons. It does not explicitly say this, but it doesn't have to, characters are limited to only one size growth per natural weapon.

By RAW:
The weapon size increase is not a bonus.
You are not limited to only one size growth per weapon.

tcrudisi
2009-02-07, 04:50 AM
I once played a Changeling Warshaper (as well as a couple other PrC's added on). The basic jist of the build was that I would shapeshift, thereby increasing my strength to about 50+, and then grow lots of tentacles. I would proceed to grow about 40 tentacles, all of them doing something like 1d6+28 or so damage.

It's been a couple of years since I played it, but that was the basics. We did a lot of roleplaying in that game since combat was pretty much useless.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-07, 06:10 AM
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
That is found in every single core spell that is capable of increasing a creature's size. Morphic Weapons is Supernatural and therefore magical. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

jcsw
2009-02-07, 09:17 AM
That is found in every single core spell that is capable of increasing a creature's size. Morphic Weapons is Supernatural and therefore magical. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

But morphic weapons does not increase the actual size.

Alleine
2009-02-07, 02:02 PM
I'm with jcsw on this one. No where in the entry does it say that the increase to damage is a bonus. And I can't find anything in the SRD saying that effects don't stack, just bonuses. Most spells won't stack because they provide a bonus, but this provides no bonus so it should stack by RAW.


Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-07, 05:32 PM
Morphic Weapons says, "If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger." It could mean one category larger than its current damage per use of Morphic Weapons, or it could mean one category larger than its original damage regardless of how many times this ability is used. It does specifically say one category larger, therefore causing a natural weapon to grow two categories larger would not be valid by RAW.

As an example, can a Druid cast Shillelagh on his staff to make it deal damage as though it were two categories larger, then cast that same spell a second time to make it deal damage as though it were four categories larger than its original size? This is a valid RAW interpretation given the spell's description, since it does not specify that multiple castings do not stack.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-07, 07:06 PM
As an example, can a Druid cast Shillelagh on his staff to make it deal damage as though it were two categories larger, then cast that same spell a second time to make it deal damage as though it were four categories larger than its original size? This is a valid RAW interpretation given the spell's description, since it does not specify that multiple castings do not stack.

However, the stacking rules mention spells not stacking. And Shillelagh is a spell.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-07, 07:25 PM
However, the stacking rules mention spells not stacking. And Shillelagh is a spell.

No, it mentions magical effects not stacking, and Morphic Weapons is a Supernatural ability, thus a magical effect.

Armads
2009-02-07, 08:39 PM
As an example, can a Druid cast Shillelagh on his staff to make it deal damage as though it were two categories larger, then cast that same spell a second time to make it deal damage as though it were four categories larger than its original size? This is a valid RAW interpretation given the spell's description, since it does not specify that multiple castings do not stack.

Minor nitpick: You can't cast shillelagh twice on the same staff while an original one is active since shillelagh targets a nonmagical club/quarterstaff.

Also, the stuff about spells stacking here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) doesn't say anything about 2 spells with the same effect at the same strength stacking. The only thing time magical effects are mentioned is in the first sentence, the title, and the part about spells rendering each other irrelevant.

In addition, in contrast to the Monkey Grip (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Monkey_Grip) feat, which states 'You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are', thus refering to your actual size, morphic weapons says nothing about your own actual size.

crazedloon
2009-02-07, 09:13 PM
also as a counter to the growing 40+ of one type of weapon the warshapers own ability by raw does not allow it. After you grow 1 tentacle when you attempt to grow a second one the text states that you would just increase the size of the one you just grew.

"If the warshaper’s form already has a natural weapon of
that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category
larger....."

therefor all you need to to do is figure out if the sizing increase stacks as there is no way for you to grow 2 of the same thing....

The Glyphstone
2009-02-07, 09:56 PM
However, you could grow 1 tentacle, 1 claw, 1 hoof, 1 bite, 1 slam, 1 wing, 1 pincer, 1 tail slap, 1 talon, 1 gore, and 1 sting - 11 attacks, and that's just what I could find in the SRD Monster Manual. It's not 40, but still way too many.

Recaiden
2009-02-07, 10:28 PM
By RAW, I'm, pretty sure you can. Whether size increases stack, there proably isn't a definitive answer.
You shouldn't be able to, but any limit would seem arbitrary. Maybe 1 set of weapons for every warshaper level would make sense?

jcsw
2009-02-07, 10:46 PM
No, it mentions magical effects not stacking, and Morphic Weapons is a Supernatural ability, thus a magical effect.

You're both referring to different parts of the rules.

He's referring to this part
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects

None of the rules listed there would cause the pseudo-size increase in morphic weapons to not stack, even if you replaced "spells" with "spells and magical effects" which they obviously forgot to do. It just doesn't fall into any of those categories.

You're referring to this part
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

Which also doesn't apply to this situation because morphic weapons does not increase the actual size of the weapon.