Elves aging?

[Zeitgeist]

I know Elves live a long time, and I don't know DnD specifics on it but...

Why would maturity be based on a percentage of their total life span rather than a set amount? Just because they live for hundreds of years doesn't mean maturity has to also take longer to pass.

I mean really, how can any humanoid that has 26 years of life experience possibly have the mind of a kindergartner? Even if their brain does somehow mature slower, they would still know so much from experience alone.

I've always envisioned long living races as getting to maturity around the same time as humans, and they just kind of stay in their prime for a LONG time, constantly developing (due to experiences), and eventually their body starts to decay, only way later. I never imagined childhood being extended because a lot of it is based on experiences with time, not just brain development.

So is it really supposed to work this way?

[TheSummoner]

Rule of funny

[Cubey]

Yeah. Well, elves usually mature at the same time as humans, or only slightly older. That's how 4th edition of DND handles it (possibly earlier ones as well), and other systems I know like Earthdawn.

But in OotS? It's pure Rule of Funny.

[Zeitgeist]

Really? I thought it was serious, I didn't know it was meant to be a joke.

[Kish]

Yeah. Well, elves usually mature at the same time as humans, or only slightly older. That's how 4th edition of DND handles it (possibly earlier ones as well),
Not earlier ones, no. They have elves barely into adulthood at around a century of age. This includes the 3.5 edition OotS is set in, so the only surprising thing should be that apparently Vaarsuvius participated in the production of two children at such a young age.

Beyond that, anything that pushes D&D toward "everything is like humans unless otherwise specified" bugs me, so I'm very glad to see Rich treats 26 years old as kindergarten for elves.

As far as "how can an elf's brain mature so much slower than a human's?" goes, Haley and Vaarsuvius have a discussion of that in OtOoPCs. Haley's argument that "if learning curve wasn't impacted by life expectancy then elves, having so much longer to study magic, would dominate the world and no one else would be able to compete"...backfires.

[Zeitgeist]

Beyond that, anything that pushes D&D toward "everything is like humans unless otherwise specified" bugs me, so I'm very glad to see Rich treats 26 years old as kindergarten for elves.

It's silly and impractical to think that ANY humanoid creature, after 26 years of life's experiences and learning, could only operate at a kindergarten level. Even if their brains do grow slower, you can't deny time.

Things are compared to humans because humans are paced properly with time. Our brains develop to keep up with the amount of life we've had.

Then you take an elf, and give them 26 years. I don't care if their brain does develop slower. That makes a HUGE difference. The only natural thing to do is think of it in human terms, since our timelines fit our biology better (you know, since we're real, and elves aren't).

I know it's fantasy, you expect magic and things, but there are some things that appear just plain silly if not played out correctly.

[Quorothorn]

It's silly and impractical to think that ANY humanoid creature, after 26 years of life's experiences and learning, could only operate at a kindergarten level. Even if their brains do grow slower, you can't deny time.

Things are compared to humans because humans are paced properly with time. Our brains develop to keep up with the amount of life we've had.

Then you take an elf, and give them 26 years. I don't care if their brain does develop slower. That makes a HUGE difference. The only natural thing to do is think of it in human terms, since our timelines fit our biology better (you know, since we're real, and elves aren't).

I know it's fantasy, you expect magic and things, but there are some things that appear just plain silly if not played out correctly.

Remember how Roy and his brother were able to spend about three weeks making block castles? Think of it as something akin to that. Elves have a less firm grasp on the passage of time compared to humans, due to their far slower aging (and, apparently, having other cycles slowed down too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)).

Edit: In other words, Elves are probably the most epic procrastinators in history.

[Zeful]

It's silly and impractical to think that ANY humanoid creature, after 26 years of life's experiences and learning, could only operate at a kindergarten level. Even if their brains do grow slower, you can't deny time.

Things are compared to humans because humans are paced properly with time. Our brains develop to keep up with the amount of life we've had.

Then you take an elf, and give them 26 years. I don't care if their brain does develop slower. That makes a HUGE difference. The only natural thing to do is think of it in human terms, since our timelines fit our biology better (you know, since we're real, and elves aren't).

I know it's fantasy, you expect magic and things, but there are some things that appear just plain silly if not played out correctly.
With almost 200 years of guaranteed life, I suspect elven lifestyle is slow in comparison to humans. Something along the lines of measuring months like we do days.

[Kish]

It's silly and impractical to think that ANY humanoid creature, after 26 years of life's experiences and learning, could only operate at a kindergarten level. Even if their brains do grow slower, you can't deny time.

Things are compared to humans because humans are paced properly with time. Our brains develop to keep up with the amount of life we've had.

Then you take an elf, and give them 26 years. I don't care if their brain does develop slower. That makes a HUGE difference. The only natural thing to do is think of it in human terms, since our timelines fit our biology better (you know, since we're real, and elves aren't).

I know it's fantasy, you expect magic and things, but there are some things that appear just plain silly if not played out correctly.
*shrug* And evidently the people who produced D&D Vista agree with you. :smallyuk: For my part, I find myself wondering if the "humanoid" qualifier in your first sentence has a justification beyond that the whole argument falls apart if it's easy to point to a creature in the real world that lives over 26 years and doesn't think like a 26-year-old human. The answer to your question is: Yes, in D&D 3.5ed it is really supposed to work that way. I'll throw in that from things he's said in the past, I know Rich is big on the inhuman player character races in D&D being really inhuman, not just humans in fancy costumes. If you're approaching the strip from the perspective that the only natural thing to do is to assume elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes are just like humans in any not-stated way and be aggravated by the introduction of new ways in which they're inhuman, you're in for disappointment.

[Zeitgeist]

Remember how Roy and his brother were able to spend about three weeks making block castles? Think of it as something akin to that. Elves have a less firm grasp on the passage of time compared to humans, due to their far slower aging (and, apparently, having other cycles slowed down too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)).

Edit: In other words, Elves are probably the most epic procrastinators in history.

That comparison doesn't quite work. In Celestia, it's assumed you don't get hungry, tired, or bored. Naturally, you can lose track of time. However, I will still argue that the Giant's portrayal of that is even exaggerated.


With almost 200 years of guaranteed life, I suspect elven lifestyle is slow in comparison to humans. Something along the lines of measuring months like we do days.

This doesn't quite work. So what, they spend one day eating a meal, going to the bathroom, and spending the rest of it walking to the well and back to get a pitcher of water? I mean they don't move slow, they don't eat any slower. They still have to do all the things they do in a day, spend some time on education, playing, whatever. You constantly learn things in your life.

Days don't just get longer like that just because you need to do things less often. If ANYTHING, an elf's sleeplessness gives them even MORE time of learning in 26 years than a human would have.

[Quorothorn]

That comparison doesn't quite work. In Celestia, it's assumed you don't get hungry, tired, or bored. Naturally, you can lose track of time. However, I will still argue that the Giant's portrayal of that is even exaggerated.

Judging from V, Elves have a greater, ah, resistance to boredom (and hunger, and tiredness). My point was that the way Elves work is probably like a lower-level version of the Time Dissociation Disorder.

Remember the time V apparently spent about 50 minutes talking and didn't realize it?

[Zeitgeist]

Remember the time V apparently spent about 50 minutes talking and didn't realize it?

V also likes the sound of his own voice.

[Balgus]

Whats the rush? This way, they have 20 years to mess around and play in trees and mud before they have to buckle down for 400 years and learn spells and the laws of the forest.

Dont know about you, but if I had 400 years before graduating from college, I would spend a couple extra years enjoying my golden years as well.

[Solaris]

Not earlier ones, no. They have elves barely into adulthood at around a century of age. This includes the 3.5 edition OotS is set in, so the only surprising thing should be that apparently Vaarsuvius participated in the production of two children at such a young age.
In Races of the Wild, they go into that. Elves are physically full-grown by twenty-five, twenty-six, roughly the same as a human (depending on individual - most of our growth past nineteen or so is sideways, but some really tall guys put on a couple inches of height). They don't reach cultural/sexual maturity until about a century-plus. How much they've matured mentally in that time period is anyone's guess, but I imagine that they're something akin to teenagers from age thirteen-fifteen to age hundred in 3.5E.
It's obviously a wee bit different with Rich's world. I'm going with Rule of Funny.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Elf lifespans, Races of the Wild adnmits that the minimum starting age in the Player's Handbook is due to Elves typically taking an age to decide to start adventuring. RotW states that Elves reach maturity at 25 years old. Rich presumably decided to stick to the PHB's guidelines (to be fair, OtOoPCs was released before RotW to my knowledge, so it wouldn't make sense to ret-con what V said about his/her age ant training time in that book).

[Deploy]

the way I see it, V's kids probably know everything a human 26 year old knows and much more. They have all that knowledge but they don't have the maturity. Heck a human 5-year old could learn all that stuff and don't you think they'd still rather make pictures of their "other parent" out of macaroni. It's not until they actually mature that thay'll start applying and flourishing with that knowledge. Until then don't you think they'd just rather have a little fun?

also saying that a human life is more balacned than an elves doesn't work. Sure they live thrice as long, but for them to be evenly spaced they'd also have to take thrice as long to mature. They're learning just as fast. But there is a vast difference between intellect and maturity and they do not necessarily depend on one another.

[Balgus]

This doesn't quite work. So what, they spend one day eating a meal, going to the bathroom, and spending the rest of it walking to the well and back to get a pitcher of water? I mean they don't move slow, they don't eat any slower. They still have to do all the things they do in a day, spend some time on education, playing, whatever. You constantly learn things in your life.

Days don't just get longer like that just because you need to do things less often. If ANYTHING, an elf's sleeplessness gives them even MORE time of learning in 26 years than a human would have.Time itself is not different - it's the perception of time that is different between humans and elves.
As an analogy, I'd like to introduce Americans to Chinese movies. Where Hollywood movies are 2-3 hours, with all the story wrapped up and tidied up nicely at the end in one HUGE conflict, Chinese movies can drag on for hundreds of chapters, with an emphasis on storytelling and character building. There is a movie called Four seasons that I watched in the 80s, which literally followed the lives of 3 generations from teenage years to adulthood, children, them having children, and those having children. It literally took 4-seasons to watch, with a 1-hour chapter coming out each week.

IIRC LOTR is the longest movie ever made and shown in US movie theaters, at 3+ hours. Even then, you have people complaining that it was too long. And then when it did not wrap up, people doubted that the second film would be such a big hit since it's just a bridge to the third movie.

I liken that to elves. Sure time passes at the same rate for them as us, but their plans stretch decades, where humans plan for tomorrow or next week. Maybe a tentative plan for next month - but nothing as intricate as decades - save retirement.

Imagine if you had not a week-long cruise, but four years to sail around and discover. Instead of hiking for a day, you explored the woods for 20 years. Instead of electing a president for 4 years, you had a tribe elder that led your tribe for a century.

That is my perception of elves. They just take more time to think about what they do, more time to do it, and more time to think about what they did. In a sense - they enjoy every part of life more than humans.

[Zeitgeist]

the way I see it, V's kids probably know everything a human 26 year old knows and much more. They have all that knowledge but they don't have the maturity. Heck a human 5-year old could learn all that stuff and don't you think they'd still rather make pictures of their "other parent" out of macaroni. It's not until they actually mature that thay'll start applying and flourishing with that knowledge. Until then don't you think they'd just rather have a little fun?

So you're saying that while they like to do kid-like things, they are wise beyond their years (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WiseBeyondTheirYears)? Although it's not exactly beyond "years" per se.


I liken that to elves. Sure time passes at the same rate for them as us, but their plans stretch decades, where humans plan for tomorrow or next week. Maybe a tentative plan for next month - but nothing as intricate as decades - save retirement.

Yes, but in your example about the movie, which sounds a lot like a series to me, which I enjoy. 3 hours is a long time to sit in a theater chair to Chinese, too. That's why it was divided into 1 hour segments.

But your comparison doesn't really work. While they spent a lot more time on a story, they also LEARNED a lot more from that story. So even if Elves have their plans or stories extended much longer, they still learn the entire time, so they still have the advantage.

[factotum]

It's silly and impractical to think that ANY humanoid creature, after 26 years of life's experiences and learning, could only operate at a kindergarten level. Even if their brains do grow slower, you can't deny time.


Why are humanoid creatures special in some way? If you look at the wide variety of life on this planet, maturation periods vary quite widely, and some can be even longer than humans--I believe elephants can delay the onset of puberty until they're 16 or 17 years old if conditions are poor, for instance. I don't find it hard to believe that the brain structure of Elves is so complex that it takes them much longer to achieve maturity than humans.

[Medya]

It makes sense to me that elves would mature slower on a biological level, too. Think of oak trees--they also live for centuries, and don't even start to produce acorns until around 50 years of age. Compare that to a mouse, which lives for maybe two years but starts having litters at under two months. We like to place things under human standards without remembering that such variety really does exist in nature.

[Zeitgeist]

Why are humanoid creatures special in some way? If you look at the wide variety of life on this planet, maturation periods vary quite widely, and some can be even longer than humans--I believe elephants can delay the onset of puberty until they're 16 or 17 years old if conditions are poor, for instance. I don't find it hard to believe that the brain structure of Elves is so complex that it takes them much longer to achieve maturity than humans.

Elephants are very different creatures.

Elves, like humans, can learn, communicate, read, speak, and think very differently from animals. When I say humanoids, that's what I'm referring to, in this case. Elves and humans are similar creatures in those regards.

I suppose I'm not talking about maturing age so much as I am acquired knowledge. I can accept that they would be immature for a longer period of time, but not exactly convinced that they somehow LEARN less than a human in 26 years.

[snoopy13a]

Why do elf brains have to develop at the same rate as human brains?

It is entirely possible that elves go through cognitive development at a much slower rate than humans.

Here's information on Piaget's theory of cognitive development:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_cognitive_development

For example, a 15 year old human may be at the abstract thinking stage while a 15 year old elf may still be at the preconceptional stage and have a similar mind to a 3 year old human.

[Balgus]

While they spent a lot more time on a story, they also LEARNED a lot more from that story. So even if Elves have their plans or stories extended much longer, they still learn the entire time, so they still have the advantage.I am not saying the "children" dont know as much as human children. They may just look like halflings - but they can very well be geniuses. Who says you have to be 5 to make macaroni pics. I enjoy an art project now and again.

And this is in Elven lands - Kindergarten doesnt have to mean pre-grade1, but introductory education. Hell - they could be learning bowmaking for all we know.

[Zeitgeist]

I am not saying the "children" dont know as much as human children. They may just look like halflings - but they can very well be geniuses. Who says you have to be 5 to make macaroni pics. I enjoy an art project now and again.

And this is in Elven lands - Kindergarten doesnt have to mean pre-grade1, but introductory education. Hell - they could be learning bowmaking for all we know.

This is the kind of flexibility I had in mind.

[Zeful]

I suppose I'm not talking about maturing age so much as I am acquired knowledge. I can accept that they would be immature for a longer period of time, but not exactly convinced that they somehow LEARN less than a human in 26 years.

Assuming a elven brain is identical to a human brain sure. But if neural bonds took twice as long to form in an elf, then all learning times are doubled.

Just because Elves are humanoid does not imply anything as to their biology.

[Kami2awa]

It's silly and impractical to think that ANY humanoid creature, after 26 years of life's experiences and learning, could only operate at a kindergarten level. Even if their brains do grow slower, you can't deny time.

Things are compared to humans because humans are paced properly with time. Our brains develop to keep up with the amount of life we've had.

Then you take an elf, and give them 26 years. I don't care if their brain does develop slower. That makes a HUGE difference. The only natural thing to do is think of it in human terms, since our timelines fit our biology better (you know, since we're real, and elves aren't).

I know it's fantasy, you expect magic and things, but there are some things that appear just plain silly if not played out correctly.

There are differences in the rate at which different species and even different individuals learn. Potentially elves are just really, really slow learners; though thats not backed up by V's recent rapid level gain. Additionally, if elves are kept in kindergarten for a long time, they would probably remain at that mental stage; they don't learn from experience because their greatest challenge to date has been making macaroni pictures, with no negative consequences if they are unable to do so well. In such a situation, an individual would be unlikely to mature very much. IRL, humans reared in bizarre circumstances (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaspar_Hauser) have exhibited similarly slowed development.

[JoseB]

If we look at humanoid creatures in our world... Chimpanzees and humans share 94 to 99% of their genetic material (depends on how the measurement is done). But when it comes to maturity, chimpanzees enter puberty around 7 years of age, part ways from their families at around 10 years of age, and in the wild live for 40 years on average when they die of natural death (although in captivity they can reach 60, and it is said that Cheetah -he of Tarzan films- lived to 76+). For more info, click here. (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Pan_troglodytes.html)

So, you can see that even when there is a really REALLY close genetic relationship there can be a tremendous difference in maturity (chimpanzees mature at about twice the speed of a human, and generally can be said to "live twice" as fast).

Now imagine humans and elves, and imagine that they share even less genes than chimpanzees and humans do. Does it stretch imagination that much to imagine that elfic maturation takes waaaay longer than human maturation?

Now that I think of it... Chimpanzees living half of the human lifespan... Being 5 times as strong as a human being... Cor blimey! In our world, more or less, chimpanzees are to humans as humans are to elves in D&D!

Just my 2 eurocent!

JoseB

[Tempest Fennac]

There was a joke in OtOoPCs about Elves being slow learners (it's apprently done to stop every Elf from reacing Epic level by the time they are 100).

[Kami2awa]

If we are looking for humanoid creatures in our world... Chimpanzees and humans share 94 to 99% of their genetic material (depends on how the measurement is done). But when it comes to maturity, chimpanzees enter puberty around 7 years of age, part ways from their families at around 10 years of age, and in the wild live for 40 years on average when they die of natural death (although in captivity they can reach 60, and it is said that Cheetah -he of Tarzan films- lived to 76+). For more info, click here. (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Pan_troglodytes.html)

So, you can see that even when there is a really REALLY close genetic relationship there can be a tremendous difference in maturity (chimpanzees mature at about twice the speed of a human, and generally can be said to "live twice" as fast).

Now imagine humans and elves, and imagine that they share even less genes than chimpanzees and humans do. Does it stretch imagination that much to imagine that elfic maturation takes waaaay longer than human maturation?

Now that I think of it... Chimpanzees living half of the human lifespan... Being 5 times as strong as a human being... Cor blimey! In our world, more or less, chimpanzees are to humans as humans are to elves in D&D!

Just my 2 eurocent!

JoseB

That's a very interesting idea, and depending on their culture elves might see it that way. However, in D&D elves and humans have almost identical intelligence and wisdom, even though the elves are generally much older and more experienced.

[Kaytara]

Ah, bringing biology to DnD. XD Still, it's better than alignment debates.

Here's my explanation, fluff-wise:

Elven brains and bodies take longer to develop. Simple as that.
Basically, what they lack in speed, they more than make up in quality. Sure, their brain takes a long time to develop, but when it does, it's capable of holding centuries' worth of memories in minute detail. Their bodies take a long time to grow, but when they do, they're durable and don't fall apart in a couple of decades like with humans, they can hold on for centuries.

And really, there's no reason to assume that human development stages are in any way the default for fantasy races. Elves are very, very different creatures. The fact that our image of them has them looking like slim pointy-eared humans is more an effect of anthropomorphising them. And their ability to interbreed with humans isn't in any way noteworthy because in DnD, humans can interbreed with just about anything, even if it's obviously a completely different species.

As for V's kids, why, precisely, should they have all the knowledge that a human 26-year-old would have? A human would have it on account of starting and completing his education, getting a job, starting a family, meeting people, etc. etc. The kids have done none of that. Their brains aren't yet sufficiently developed to do any of those things, so they're "stuck" in kindergarten until further notice. But hey, I'm willing to bet that everything they do in kindergarten, they do in-depth. And they probably do a great deal many things that human kindergarten systems never even consider, like plant lore or something. There certainly isn't a lack of knowledge to be learned in the world, elves just have the fantastic opportunity of having far more time to learn it.

[Zeitgeist]

As for V's kids, why, precisely, should they have all the knowledge that a human 26-year-old would have?

Well, as long as they are held in their lives as children, there are some things they wouldn't learn. But they'd know a lot, really. If they spent, say, 5 years in kindergarten, they'd know probably about 5 times as much as a human would learn in kindergarten. It would continue with the years.

I will concede that their bodies and maturity may only develop at a certain speed, but the fact remains that if a person spends MORE time doing something, they learn more about what they are doing.

If I spend 5 years studying a textbook, as opposed to taking one year to do the same task, the person who studied for 5 years will know a LOT more, plain and simple. I think the "slow learner" thing is flimsy, and can't really be supported. Why? Because being a slow learner would seriously hinder an elf partying with a human, since the human would continually pick up on things, and the elf would be left in the dust due to their slow learning. That doesn't make sense, and I don't know anybody who plays an elf like that.

So even if their maturity is slow, they still have 5 times as much time to learn, and will therefore know a lot more.

I have little doubt that these elven children are immensely smarter than a human kindergartner, simply since they've had more time to develop.

[Optimystik]

If I spend 5 years studying a textbook, as opposed to taking one year to do the same task, the person who studied for 5 years will know a LOT more, plain and simple. I think the "slow learner" thing is flimsy, and can't really be supported. Why? Because being a slow learner would seriously hinder an elf partying with a human, since the human would continually pick up on things, and the elf would be left in the dust due to their slow learning. That doesn't make sense, and I don't know anybody who plays an elf like that.

So even if their maturity is slow, they still have 5 times as much time to learn, and will therefore know a lot more.

I agree, WotC's explanation in Races of the Wild is rather flimsy. However, another note is that elves spend ages frolicking about and not applying themselves to their studies to the degree that humans do. Whether that's the case with V or not is never made clear in OtOoPCs.

[Quorothorn]

I agree, WotC's explanation in Races of the Wild is rather flimsy. However, another note is that elves spend ages frolicking about and not applying themselves to their studies to the degree that humans do. Whether that's the case with V or not is never made clear in OtOoPCs.

That's what I said: Elves are the most epic procrastinators in history. :smallbiggrin:

[allenw]

It's silly and impractical to think that ANY humanoid creature, after 26 years of life's experiences and learning, could only operate at a kindergarten level.
Yes, yes it is. But them's the rules, and if you expect Rich to not use a D&D rule in this strip because it's silly, you may need to brush up onthe Archives.:smallwink:

[Warren Dew]

In Races of the Wild, they go into that. Elves are physically full-grown by twenty-five, twenty-six, roughly the same as a human (depending on individual - most of our growth past nineteen or so is sideways, but some really tall guys put on a couple inches of height). They don't reach cultural/sexual maturity until about a century-plus. How much they've matured mentally in that time period is anyone's guess, but I imagine that they're something akin to teenagers from age thirteen-fifteen to age hundred in 3.5E.

I think it would make more sense if the elven definition of cultural maturity were something even a human wouldn't reach for a century or so. It's the whole "never trust anyone under eighty" thing.

In the case of this comic, though, it does seem likely that Rich is going with base 3.5 and the rule of funny.

[Zeitgeist]

However, another note is that elves spend ages frolicking about and not applying themselves to their studies to the degree that humans do.

Frolicking? Sheesh, they aren't making cookies or granting wishes to somebody who discovers their true name or something. Just because you have extra time doesn't mean you need to kill it doing nothing. If anything, I've considered elves to be MORE diligent than humans.

I don't know, I've always envisioned elves as being as wise as they are old. 200 year old elf? I expect the elf to have 200 years of wisdom, even if the elf isn't hunched over with a 4 foot beard in a chair spouting off the wisdom to adventurers. Slower development or not, they're still 200 frickin' years old. I don't like the "dumbing down" of elves in order to compensate for the great power such a long life should give them. I expect an elf to be an awesome sharpshot with a bow, or a master of the most powerful arcane spells, or a true battle-hardened warrior. I understand the need for balance, hence the dumbing down, but it really takes away from the feel that I'd really expect from an elf.

Really, if you were 200+ years old, you could have potentially fought in the civil war, both WW1 and WW2, and other wars. I don't care how slow you take things, you've got experience from things. You live in a world where things happen. You may try to take life slow, but things still happen, and you still deal with them. It's not different for an elf.

For instance, in a 300 year span, let's say a human and elf nation are at war. That's several human generations, but the elves may mostly be in the first generation (I think). Each human generation only experiences part of that war, but an elf could have experienced ALL of that war. Everything is the same pace - humans and elves are interacting. It can't just "go slower" for the elves. It's real, and they participate. The elves that have been around for most of those 300 years are going to have much more battle experience than the human that only lived 80 years. There's no way to slow that down.

[Ozymandias9]

If I spend 5 years studying a textbook, as opposed to taking one year to do the same task, the person who studied for 5 years will know a LOT more, plain and simple.
Only if they're both at the formal operational stage of cognitive development. Give an 6 year old 5 years with a linguistics text book, and they still won't have the same command of linguistics as a 25 year old who read it once.

Cognitive development is generally divided into 4 phases:

Sensorimotor, which covers the development of reflexes through symbolic representation
Preoperational, which covers language development and intuative pattern recognition and problem solving
Concrete Operational, which covers the development of logical problem solving and the ability to consider things from more than one perspective
Formal Operational, which covers the ability to think abstractly and grapple with hypothetical situations and multiple competing viewpoints


Humans don't generally reach formal operational till about 12 years old or so (there are, of course, outliers). Trying to teach someone who hasn't reached that point abstract disciplines will generally be fruitless. And since these developmental periods do seem to be linked to physical and chemical brain development, they can't be significantly sped up (though the can be slowed by limited interaction with the environment).

To top things off, since most people start reaching formal operational levels at about the same period the enter puberty, formal operational development tends to be fairly slow for a couple of years.

We know (if we take the PHB description rather than the non-core description) that 3.5 elves don't reach sexual maturity till around their 1st century and that their life cycle is roughly a map of the human life cycle onto a longer length. If we assume that elves have brain development at the same relative rate as humans (this is purely a biological assumption, not a educational one), then they're not going to even reach the point where they can be expected to learn abstract skills like literature, academic magic, or combat strategy until 95 years or so. And at 95 years, just hitting puberty; go-go hormones. That's only 15 years short of minimum starting age, which is acceptable if we assume that the basic elements of formal operational development and puberty follow a similar relative corse.

Where this falls apart is in purely concrete skills. Elves should have a 24-30 year window or so spent in the concrete operational phase when they should be able to learn a lot of non-abstract skills. And that's a lot longer than it takes to learn proficiency with bows and longswords. They shouldn't learn how to, say, feint in combat or bluff well in this period, but they should definitely be picking up a lot of str, con, and dex based skills and similar proficiencies.

[Zeitgeist]

And this is all assuming that elves have the same type of development as humans, just longer. And even when they DO get to the formal operational age, they STILL have MUCH more time than humans. Presuming all your stages are accurate for elves, and an elf life is like an extended human life (all phases lengthened) then elves should STILL be highly exceptional in comparison.

No matter how you look at it, they still have more time. They may be capable of learning different things at first, but they still have more time. And eventually, when fully matured and in their "prime", they have a lot more time in their prime, and they will inevitably learn more than humans, unless they just sleep all day. Oh wait, they don't sleep.

If humans suddenly started living 500 years, I have no doubt by the time we were 400 we'd most all be exceptionally wise and probably smart (compared to elderly today). I see no reason it should differ from an elf.

[Zeful]

And this is all assuming that elves have the same type of development as humans, just longer. And even when they DO get to the formal operational age, they STILL have MUCH more time than humans. Presuming all your stages are accurate for elves, and an elf life is like an extended human life (all phases lengthened) then elves should STILL be highly exceptional in comparison.

No matter how you look at it, they still have more time. They may be capable of learning different things at first, but they still have more time. And eventually, when fully matured and in their "prime", they have a lot more time in their prime, and they will inevitably learn more than humans, unless they just sleep all day. Oh wait, they don't sleep.

If humans suddenly started living 500 years, I have no doubt by the time we were 400 we'd most all be exceptionally wise and probably smart (compared to elderly today). I see no reason it should differ from an elf.

Except if elves were just like human but longer, then all the processes that go into learning would also be lengthened. So an elf would have to read a book several times (or just slower) to get his brain to make the neural connections to remember it. Otherwise things get ridiculous. If elves actually worked the way Races of Wild states (physical maturity at 25 majority at 100+), elves would have at least +4 to Int and Wis, the ability to take ten or 20 on all knowledge skills for things that occurred in their lifespan and two or three times starting skill points. Which is blatantly overpowered and require a large LA to keep balanced. This would make the dumbest elf (int 7) only slightly slow by human standards.

[hamishspence]

it seems less ridiculous than everything lengthed. If, for an elf "I'll meet you in a couple of decades" is equivalent of "I'll meet you next week" it stretches things a bit too much.

[Zeful]

it seems less ridiculous than everything lengthed. If, for an elf "I'll meet you in a couple of decades" is equivalent of "I'll meet you next week" it stretches things a bit too much.

More like "See you next year", but why would that be ridiculous? For lifespans measured in centuries, the day becomes dreary and repetitive quickly. Can you keep track of every hour of your day?

For Races of Wild to be correct elves would have to be in some form of intellectual stasis for more than 75 years, otherwise they should be smarter than a human (and have an Int bonus automatic ranks in knowledge skills, or bonus skill points). If it simply takes elves more time to learn things, then nothing changes.

[hamishspence]

it says "grace, emotional maturity, patence and wisdom" are what the eles are learning, also, that some elves are remarkably poised for their age (a 30 year old with the poise of a 100 year old) and that elves often start adventuring at much younger ages, the 100 year age in PHB is just a guideline.

Same applies to drow- Drizzt went into the Underdark at 30-odd.

75 year not doing very much might be a little odd, but by the game rules, a 100 year old 1st level elf can finish up as a 102 year old 20+ level elf.

So, having them learn other things than that which can be represented by Knowledge, might make more sense than incredibly slow childhood growth.

[LurkerInPlayground]

the way I see it, V's kids probably know everything a human 26 year old knows and much more. They have all that knowledge but they don't have the maturity. Heck a human 5-year old could learn all that stuff and don't you think they'd still rather make pictures of their "other parent" out of macaroni. It's not until they actually mature that thay'll start applying and flourishing with that knowledge. Until then don't you think they'd just rather have a little fun?

also saying that a human life is more balacned than an elves doesn't work. Sure they live thrice as long, but for them to be evenly spaced they'd also have to take thrice as long to mature. They're learning just as fast. But there is a vast difference between intellect and maturity and they do not necessarily depend on one another.
Aside from the funny, my thoughts on the matter are just that nobody expects 26-year old elf "children" to have any real responsibilities yet, so it's not weird for them to muck around with macaroni art at that age. (Kindergarten and macaroni art being an anachronism in a pseudo-Medieval setting anyway.)

Prior to that, I'm pretty sure Forgotten Realms elves (and probably early D&D canon on elves) had elves who had lived a century still be considered "young" by elvish standards. Just barely adults, even though they look as young as a human in their early twenties.

[hamishspence]

true- still odd- for an elf, it appears Year 26 to Year 100 is equivalent of human Year 19 to Year 20.

Might explain why Drizzt suffers from excess angst- he's still a teenager in drow terms (and has been one for over 40 years)

[Optimystik]

Might explain why Drizzt suffers from excess angst- he's still a teenager in drow terms (and has been one for over 40 years)

THAT explains the Linkin Park CDs in his Bag of Holding!

[Ozymandias9]

Except if elves were just like human but longer, then all the processes that go into learning would also be lengthened. So an elf would have to read a book several times (or just slower) to get his brain to make the neural connections to remember it. Otherwise things get ridiculous.

This however is clearly not the case. Gaining a level is an abstraction for the process of learning new skills relevant to the character's class, and elves do that no slower than other races. Nor do the get feats or skill points at a lesser rate (excepting the human bonus feat).


And this is all assuming that elves have the same type of development as humans, just longer. And even when they DO get to the formal operational age, they STILL have MUCH more time than humans. Presuming all your stages are accurate for elves, and an elf life is like an extended human life (all phases lengthened) then elves should STILL be highly exceptional in comparison.
I agree that should clearly reach greater heights for a lifetime in general, particularly for young adulthood and beyond (which poses other issues for any game world), but the thread was started with an inquiry regarding V's children, who are only 26 (which would map to about 6 for a human).

[Zeitgeist]

Which is blatantly overpowered and require a large LA to keep balanced. This would make the dumbest elf (int 7) only slightly slow by human standards.

That's my point. I know full well they'd be overpowered, but I think, logically, they should be. Of course, that doesn't work well for a game.

But really, when you play DnD, you can explain away 100 years of their life by saying they're equivalent with a 20 year old human because they learn slow, but when you actually play the campaign, they do everything and learn everything as well as any humans you have in your party. Suddenly, they aren't slow anymore when you have to play them. Puzzle? It doesn't take the elf 10 times longer to solve it. It doesn't take them 10 times longer to learn a language. It doesn't take them 10 times longer to analyze a situation. All that they do in a party is accepted as on par with a human. So why should they be written off as slow learners? They shouldn't.

Heck, in some things, like Tolkein's work, elves are immortal. How do you explain that? Answer: they become immensely wise and powerful with time. Legolas isn't awesome with a bow because he's played by Orlando Bloom, you know.

As far as I'm concerned, the rules used in DnD are just a flimsy silly explanation to make sure elves aren't OP, when rightfully they should be.

[awibs]

Remember how Roy and his brother were able to spend about three weeks making block castles? Think of it as something akin to that. Elves have a less firm grasp on the passage of time compared to humans, due to their far slower aging (and, apparently, having other cycles slowed down too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)).

Edit: In other words, Elves are probably the most epic procrastinators in history.

This is actually very much the idea, and the source for the idea, that I had in mind with the elven life-cycle. If they only have to pee/eat/whatever every few weeks, they could easily get absorbed in something for much longer periods of time. In fact, I know many absent-minded professor personalities who push the human life cycle to it's limit, because they are too absorbed in whatever they are doing to remember to eat and sleep unless interrupted. Unfortunately, our less-noble human metabolism doesn't work well with this, and we get sickly from lack of nutrition and rest, or kidney stones from holding pee back too long (true story - happened to my dad.) Furthermore, we have to assume that puberty, and the concerns and desires thereof, come later. There is no reason a human child would not continue to be content with block castles and pillow forts and bike races for considerably longer, were it not for the sudden onrush of hormones at puberty causing a change of priorities. People often mourn a childhood ended too quickly by teenage changes and adult concerns - indicating to me that it would be a bit longer before even humans got bored with childhood, if we could extend it. I don't see why a theoretical elven child should suddenly get bored with playing most of the time if they had none of the interest in reproduction and independent existence that comes with adolescence, and had parents quite willing to provide for their needs. Hell, speaking of absent-minded professor types - some notable genius real-life humans have been known to have retained a childlike inability and unconcern to care for themselves in basic, day to day ways. This is because they were such fascinating geniuses since childhood that parents and dorm mothers always rushed to care for their needs, since "they must be thinking about something more important." It never occurs to them to become socially functional or physically self-sufficient because it never has to. It has also been proven that immature so-called adults can become suddenly much more responsible when they have kids and it occurs to them that they need to be.

My point in all these examples - even among humans, maturity is relative and often sped up or delayed by necessity. Sometimes you'll find a 13 year old child caring for their younger siblings, with a tired, jaded, adult personality, when forced to by being orphaned in a slum. Sometimes you'll find a 40 year old genius who can't and wouldn't remember to do his own laundry or feed himself, because people never burdened him to learn how.

Therefore, if elves are not obliged to learn to "grow up" for much longer - why would they?

[Querzis]

Oh come on, if nobody would force me to take some kind of responsability, I would also still be playing hide and seek and making macaroni picture. If you think you're different then you're just fooling yourself.

[Raenir Salazar]

Drow mature fully by age 30, although they have really good reasons to do so.

[[TS] Shadow]

Elephants are very different creatures.

Elves, like humans, can learn, communicate, read, speak, and think very differently from animals. When I say humanoids, that's what I'm referring to, in this case. Elves and humans are similar creatures in those regards.

I suppose I'm not talking about maturing age so much as I am acquired knowledge. I can accept that they would be immature for a longer period of time, but not exactly convinced that they somehow LEARN less than a human in 26 years.

Your arguement is that a 26 year old humanoid has experienced enough to act on a higher level than a kindergardener. Tell me: what experiences did YOU have when you were little? Elf infants (in OotS, anyway,) spend 20 years of there life in diapers. When you're a baby, you're not studying or learning anything beyond basic concepts. What you fail to understand is that it takes Elves time to mature into an age where they can learn things. Or can I assume that you learned algebra when you were 3 years old?

[Thane of Fife]

My personal opinion would be that there simply isn't the pressure on them to do stuff yet.

Consider how, several hundred years ago, the average person might be married in his/her early teens, and would probably be working as well.

Our lifespans have maybe doubled since then (maybe), and yet now it isn't uncommon for people to remain get married after 20-30 years. We could easily remain unemployed through our mid-20's if we could depend on someone willing to put us through school.

Now imagine that that lifespan expands to hundreds of years. There's a lot less pressure on the elf to accomplish things 'while he's still young.' It's not hard to imagine how such a society could remain relatively immature for decades longer than we do.

[Roupe]

As for the 100 year elves reaching adulthood, i think it is simmilar to our view on maturity

That is the definition of what age one is a adult is a social construct, more than a biological one.

Elves IMHO could just regard the criteria for adults ; that they should be self sufficient (can live without the help of parents). Then they have a social system that causes people to live with their parents until their 100th birthday.

IRL in a western country people can be about 30 when they finished schooling for a reliable job, be able to move out and start courting for a mate.

In contrast Leonardo da Vinci became a apprentice for a renowned artist at age 14, and a master in a guild at age 20 - Our societies students gets into art school after they are 20.

The real Romeo was 16 & Julia was 14, causing it to be a moral outrage for our society and makes us more sympathetic to the respective families rejection of the love affair - Than that of the time of Shakespeare.

Society view those that finished their education and of a socially set age as adults, and those not as childish. so it is the school system and the required amount of learning that has the biggest impact when defining when one is adult. And smart individuals have to follow the rules of majority.

if Leonardo was born in our era he has to wait like everyone else until he is 30 before graduating in engineering.

[Raenir Salazar]

not quite true, there are exceptions as we have child prodigies and exceptional people who could accomplish great things by a young age if given the tools and oppurtunity.

To give a good example from science fiction; Andrew "Ender" Wiggin.

[Charles Phipps]

Actually, there's been a lot of studies that indicate our maturity level is directly related to our biological growth. In other words, an 80 year old woman in the body of a twenty year old will largely act like a 20 year old.

Likewise, assume you're 26 years old, and haven't hit puberty. In other words, you don't notice girls/boys and you're still roughly too small to reach the cookie jar on your own.

You're largely still dependent on your parents. I expect these kids have read HUGE numbers of children's books by this time but it's not like they would have moved on to reading anything more mature since anything remotely risque will go over their heads because, again, they haven't hit puberty.

They also lack all the wonderful anger, aggression, and awkward experiences that shape people during their adolescence/teenager years so much because they're still physically children.

[Kai Maera]

This may be awkward to bring up, but... well, they don't seem to be immature at all. They use a syntax superior to that of most exceptionally intelligent human beings, one might say. If V is of the elf variety which gets a bonus to intelligence, perhaps the elves must earn their intelligence bonus... through schooling of some sort, required across the board.

Makes more sense than saying one race is superior to another, in my opinion.

[Snake-Aes]

I know Elves live a long time, and I don't know DnD specifics on it but...

Why would maturity be based on a percentage of their total life span rather than a set amount? Just because they live for hundreds of years doesn't mean maturity has to also take longer to pass.

I mean really, how can any humanoid that has 26 years of life experience possibly have the mind of a kindergartner? Even if their brain does somehow mature slower, they would still know so much from experience alone.

I've always envisioned long living races as getting to maturity around the same time as humans, and they just kind of stay in their prime for a LONG time, constantly developing (due to experiences), and eventually their body starts to decay, only way later. I never imagined childhood being extended because a lot of it is based on experiences with time, not just brain development.

So is it really supposed to work this way?

Mostly, the funsies define it here (20 years in diapers <giggle>).

It does make a little bit of sense if you look at the first stages of life of the beings that live longer(longer gestation, mostly). Elven physical and emotional maturing do take a while, but I also believe it should be faster(say, 20 years = early teens). I can't seriously find reasonable to see a person who's lived through 40 or 50 years to be as immature (due to extra experience time?) as a 19 years old boy.

[Roupe]

perhaps the elves must earn their intelligence bonus... through schooling of some sort, required across the board.

I also think it makes sense that the elves need to earn their intelligence bonus through schooling. I just think that their adulthood is also needed to be "earned" through schooling and reaching a set age, regardless of their biological maturity.

That even if the elf is biologically mature at age 16, it still needs to be certified by society and has a schooling period until it reached its suitable age (100). Since they have potential to have very long lives ;the elven child needs ample time to be a child and study.

It just takes that long, for them, to be accepted and able -with their society of ancient elders.

[Rotipher]

This may be awkward to bring up, but... well, they don't seem to be immature at all. They use a syntax superior to that of most exceptionally intelligent human beings, one might say. If V is of the elf variety which gets a bonus to intelligence, perhaps the elves must earn their intelligence bonus... through schooling of some sort, required across the board.

Or maybe the twins simply inherited their Other Parent's brains, same as anyone with a >20-Int parent might. (Assuming V's kids aren't adopted, that is.)