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Zergrusheddie
2009-02-08, 05:59 AM
Most parties have a Rogue in the party; they do decent melee damage and are excellent for the amount of skills they get. However, I fear that in our current campaign the Rogue will be trying to skim some cash off of the top. Our characters don't know, but we as players will know damn well what's going on.

Is there a way to ensure that the Rogue does not steal from the party? This is an Evil Campaign, so if the Rogue actually steals for the party he is likely to be the subject of Animate Dead rather than Raise Dead. :smallamused:
How have you people dealt with Rogues who seem to be wearing Mithril Chain while everyone else is scrapping for Chain?

The Rogue has not stolen anything yet, and I'm not sure that he will. However, I've had problems with thieves in the group before and it usually ends with people shouting at each other and storming off. This is something I would like to avoid so I'm wondering if there are any precautions that can be made.

EDIT: I suck at the explanation thing. Maybe this will help you help us.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Dallas-Dakota
2009-02-08, 06:06 AM
I say the rogue damn deserves it since usually most of it functions are able to be done by others.

Example : Pick lock? - Bash down door.

He just better hide his shinies.

Myou
2009-02-08, 06:21 AM
Cast Zone of Truth then ask if he's cheating you?

BobVosh
2009-02-08, 06:21 AM
I say the rogue damn deserves it since usually most of it functions are able to be done by others.

Example : Pick lock? - Bash down door.

He just better hide his shinies.

Your reasoning for why he should be able to take monies is that he is worthless? O.o

I take it this is low level if Mithril chain is a big thing? Just wait for a chance to beat his bluff/sleight of hand/etc. He has at most a ~+10. One time he will roll low and you will roll high. Bam, instant money if you can get em.

arguskos
2009-02-08, 06:30 AM
If you catch him... shoot him. Stealing from allies is not an acceptable course of action, so he deserves to be stung for doing so (this is coming from someone who keeps Magic Missile prepared all day every day for this exact reason).

If you don't catch him in the act, but discover it later... take all his stuff and divide it amongst the party (him included). This reminds the rogue that he's still part of the team, and ya'll just want your share of the spoils.

If you never catch him, then go him. He's good enough to steal and get away with it, he deserves to keep it.

Prak
2009-02-08, 06:30 AM
give the evil party a reason to not be "punks*"( to one another)?

seriously, just because a person is evil doesn't mean they feel the need to be a "punk*" all the fraking time to everyone they meet. They could be friends, it could be professional courtesy, maybe they're under a gaes, maybe they're in the mob and family or "damn near as".

Pick something, just try to stay the hell away from MAD, more evil games get ruined by Chaotic Stupid/Idiotic Evil players and MAD diplomacy than anything else.


*loving this filter.... really, I am... No, this tone is how I always talk... I'm not being sarcastic, seriously, I love this filter supreme benevolent overlords, truly you have the ultimate wisdom in what words are too horrible to be spoken...:smallannoyed:

Aquillion
2009-02-08, 06:30 AM
I say the rogue damn deserves it since usually most of it functions are able to be done by others.

Example : Pick lock? - Bash down door.This isn't really true. It's pretty hard to easily substitute for passive checks like Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive, and the substitutes for social skills like Bluff and Diplomacy tend to have limitations; while many other abilities (like Move Silently or Disguise) work even better when combined with magical options. Also, many traps (like alarms) can't be so easily bashed down.

Dallas-Dakota
2009-02-08, 06:33 AM
Gwah. *is attacked on all sides*
Forgive me if I was wrong, I haven't played DnD in a loong time.

ufo
2009-02-08, 06:35 AM
If your characters have no idea he's stealing, this is a case of extreme metagaming.

arguskos
2009-02-08, 06:36 AM
Gwah. *is attacked on all sides*
Forgive me if I was wrong, I haven't played DnD in a loong time.
I wouldn't say you are wrong, just that maybe a rogue who steals from the party clearly isn't interesting in being a team player, that's all. Rogues are plenty useful if given a chance to be so and if they attempt to be so. A rogue who just steals from his "friends" is asking be be strung up and flogged to death.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-08, 06:47 AM
If your characters have no idea he's stealing, this is a case of extreme metagaming.

You're saying this as if it was a bad thing.

lesser_minion
2009-02-08, 06:49 AM
If your characters have no idea he's stealing, this is a case of extreme metagaming.

Not really - the characters can quite easily become suspicious. Of course, then there is always this problem. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)

EDIT - Aargh! ninj- *shing* :gurgle:

ufo
2009-02-08, 06:51 AM
If you're planning for your characters to become aware, it's still metagaming.

If this is a genuine problem and not just a minor nuisance, approach him outside of the game and tell him not to steal your ****.

MickJay
2009-02-08, 07:05 AM
If your characters have no idea he's stealing, this is a case of extreme metagaming.

I would have thought this was a case of extreme lack of metagaming :smallconfused:

Kioran
2009-02-08, 07:12 AM
First off, clear with the other players out of character whether this is a friendly (some basic rules are to be followed, but PCs are also safe from some things) or no-holds-barred campaign (with the PCs facing the full consequences of their actions, but have little restrictions on them and my indeed in-fight). If it's a friendly campaign, there is no theft. If not, well, the Rogue gets away with whatever he can get away with, but runs a risk.

If the other players really want to increase the likelihood of their characters noticing the theft, without initial suspicion, that's indeed metagaming. But once they are suspicious, the Rogue is fair game.
And should be killed painfully, protractedly and messily. It's an evil party after all. And even a good party would probably beat their "Haley" senseless before relieving her off almost all her possessions/ill-gotten gains.

Stealing from comrades is one of the most vile offenses amongst brothers in arms. It's also punished by hanging during a war, and for good reason. The rogue may steal to his heart's content, but no crying foul when he gets his comeuppance.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-08, 07:14 AM
Wow, lot's of posts rather quickly.
It's not that we have any reason to suspect him yet, we just don't want it to actually happen.

The reason I choose Mithril as an example comes from poor assumptions; Mithril is 10 times as expensive in this game, simply because the DM hates the ASF subtraction.
So, just using a Sense Motive check every time the loot is split should help reduce the chance?

Kurald Galain
2009-02-08, 07:15 AM
Put it like this...

The fighter's job is to stab people until they die. Unless the fighter is a [censored], he won't be stabbing his teammates. If he is a [censored], why on earth are you traveling with him?

Now replace "fighter" with "rogue", and "stabbing people" with "stealing stuff"...

hamishspence
2009-02-08, 07:16 AM
on board ship, its not hanging but very painful "running the guantlet" thats usual.

But yes, BoVD and Savage Species do point out evil characters can see the gain in dealing honestly with each other.

Kaelaroth
2009-02-08, 07:22 AM
I suggest a Mark of Justice. Right now.

JellyPooga
2009-02-08, 07:29 AM
To my mind, it all depends on the level of thievery. If he's just stealing a few gold and silvers for knick-knacks and baubles, that's fine. If he's piking your Cure Serious Wounds potion or your Dragon Slaying arrow (and selling it), then that starts jeopardises the party and is not acceptable.

Style counts as well...for example, a Rogue that steals a lot from the party, but also gives a lot back (e.g. by stealing from NPC's too, then using the total stolen gold to go buy a bunch of potions for party use) should not be punished too greatly if discovered (if at all).

Likewise, if the Rogue just wants to get rid of those 'itchy fingers', he could steal stuff but return it (covertly of course) a few days later. Party members will find stuff dis- and re-appearing seemingly at random. If discovered, the rogue can merely say that he's done no harm and was only 'keeping in hand in practice'.

Leon
2009-02-08, 07:37 AM
If you don't catch him in the act, but discover it later... take all his stuff and divide it amongst the party (him included). This reminds the rogue that he's still part of the team, and ya'll just want your share of the spoils.


Since its a Evil party, Divide him amongst the party

Thane of Fife
2009-02-08, 07:40 AM
Put it like this...

The fighter's job is to stab people until they die. Unless the fighter is a [censored], he won't be stabbing his teammates. If he is a [censored], why on earth are you traveling with him?

Now replace "fighter" with "rogue", and "stabbing people" with "stealing stuff"...

Well, the obvious answer would be that there's this dungeon, and it's full of nasty traps, and somebody's got to disarm them....

Maltore
2009-02-08, 11:10 AM
Given that the characters aren't aware of this, this is an outgame problem and needs to be solved ooc. Tell your DM and the rogue player that this is making the game less fun for you.

Try to get both involved to find a solution that suits all of you. After all, perhaps the rogue player has been waiting forever to get into an evil campaign where he could truely roleplay a selfish klepto who isn't hindered by 'I can't steal from my party members because that wouldn't be nice'.

Off the top of my head suggestions (foregoing the obvious "no using your powers/skills against other PC's"):

* The DM makes sure that, even if the rogue can cream off the regular loot, you all stay at the same wealth level. The npc wizard you helped rewards each of you with an item, the rogue's being worth less than the others. The party slaughters a temple of Heironeous, which pleases the party cleric's god so much that he personally comes down and upgrades the cleric's +1 full plate to +2. The fighter gets a substantial discount at the Magic Item Store because the girl at the desk likes his face. I think you get the idea.

* You all agree that playing dirty is allowed. No whining about the rogue having loose hands. No whining if the Necromancer uses Vampiric Touch on a party member because he is conveniently close. No whining if you are found stealing and the Beguiler thinks mindrape is an adequate response. Personally I would never want to play like this, but then again I like paladins. To each his own.

* The rogue makes it into a running gag to see how much he can steal and then showcase it to his friends (the party), at which point everything is returned. "Say, cleric, what time is it? - Lemme check,.. hey, where's my watch? - I don't know, oh, hey, what's that behind your ear?" This could end up very funny if it's roleplayed well.

togapika
2009-02-08, 11:32 AM
Well, the obvious answer would be that there's this dungeon, and it's full of nasty traps, and somebody's got to disarm them....

His dead body being thrown at any possible traps would work just as well....

Om
2009-02-08, 11:53 AM
Given that the characters aren't aware of this, this is an outgame problem and needs to be solved ooc. Tell your DM and the rogue player that this is making the game less fun for youThat's the exact point that I was about to make. In my experience, admittedly not directly applicable, the search for IC solutions to OOC problems never ends well. You're far better keeping to two spheres separate and dealing with OOC issues outside of the roleplay mechanics

But then, I find it hard to see any roleplaying objections to an evil thief skimming the profits

Dixieboy
2009-02-08, 12:00 PM
I can honestly not see the problem with a rogue stealing :smallannoyed:

Callos_DeTerran
2009-02-08, 12:22 PM
So...let me get this straight. Your problem is your party thief might be trying to skim gold off the top in an evil campaign and you want advice about to stop the crime before it happens based on OOC knowledge alone?

...Yeah, there's something wrong here and I don't think it's your thieving problems. This isn't like a case of loot being divied up and then the guy stealing stuff that is rightly yours in your sleep, this is about the thief taking some of the gold out of some treasure he found before turning it over to the party to divide up into equal portions when it's still free game. If anything I'd count you lucky that he's not just taking it all and saying he didn't find anything.

More importantly, what's the harm in it? I've played a klepto-thief just once, and whenever I found a particularly large horde or something before the party did I'd squirrel away a couple gemstones or couple hundred gold pieces without telling anyone. I never spent them, I loaned them out to my party members whenever they were short on cash to seem like a nicer guy to them and picking up an extremely low-rate interest that compensated me for my own personal losses with legitimate cash. It also formed a bond with my party, even if it was just one of owing debts to someone which can be highly important in evil groups to keep it together since the lawful evil or neutral evil party members will at least think about the debt at times and the fact they have someone so free with loaning their own cash before turning on them.

In other words, I'm not agreeing with the other posters or your own decision that this is a problem because you don't even know if the thief will be successful or what he plans on doing with the money.

RebelRogue
2009-02-08, 01:14 PM
It boils down to: don't be a jerk to the other player (or DM for that matter) even though "it's what my character/alignment/whatever would do". The Giant has written an excellent article that covers this (and other issues): http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html

Dixieboy
2009-02-08, 01:30 PM
It boils down to: don't be a jerk to the other player (or DM for that matter) even though "it's what my character/alignment/whatever would do". The Giant has written an excellent article that covers this (and other issues): http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html

Really...

Firstly off we are being told everyone is evil
He's a rogue
And since the others have not noticed he cannot be stealing anything major

So it all comes down to the other players being whiny IMO :smallannoyed:

RebelRogue
2009-02-08, 01:45 PM
Really...

Firstly off we are being told everyone is evil
He's a rogue
And since the others have not noticed he cannot be stealing anything major

So it all comes down to the other players being whiny IMO :smallannoyed:
Maybe the players a whiny, maybe they're not mature enough to handle playing Evil. And maybe not. It's hard to tell form this. But in the end, if your fellow players think there's a problem, well then there is a problem!

RTGoodman
2009-02-08, 01:56 PM
It may be "metagaming" and it might be "whiny," but I think the other players have a legitimate complaint.

I've played in enough games where people played Rogues as "I hide during combat, maybe sneak attack something, and then stealing from everyone - but it's okay, because I'm Chaotic Neutral!" to know that it ALWAYS ends badly. Someone gets mad or someone's feelings get hurt, and suddenly the game isn't so much a game anymore as it is people arguing sitting around a table covered in plastic elves. It's been so bad in the past with groups I've played with that I just outright ban stealing from the party and fighting amongst party members. Yeah, it may sound heavy-handed or whatever, but it keeps games going.

Now, do I think they should handle the problem in-game? NO. It's something that needs to be taken care of or at least discussed between ALL the players and the DM out-of-game, preferably before the game starts. If all the players and the DM are okay with this sort of intra-party conflict, then have at it. If some people AREN'T okay with it, then don't do it. The point of the game is to have fun as a GROUP.

MartinHarper
2009-02-08, 03:04 PM
It's not that we have any reason to suspect him yet, we just don't want it to actually happen.

Talk to the person who will be playing the rogue. Say that. Come to an agreement.

If y'all don't like such things, you might also want to talk to the arcane caster, lest you all get Suggested in your sleep.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-09, 02:11 AM
You're playing an evil campaign. Thems the breaks. :smallamused:

Slightly more helpfully, may I suggest acting in character?
Evil people generally suspect other people of being Evil (that is, acting like they would) and therefore make appropriate precautions. Set traps up around your sleeping location, stash your treasures somewhere only you know about while you sleep, etc. This will minimize intraparty theft.

Now, as to skimming off the top; this sounds like a job for the LE bruiser! Make it extremely clear that all treasure will be divided according to The Rules at the end of the adventure, and that he, being the boss, will make sure everyone follows The Rules.

Threats of violence are a good start, but a better one is to have the LE boss hold onto all of the party's treasure, and to keep a ledger about who has earned what. Periodically, the boss can perform intrusive searches of the other party members to make sure they're not holding out - 50 lashes if you're found with so much as a copper.

This will discourage the Rogue (or anyone else) from stealing casually, and if your LE boss is very canny, he may figure out ways to keep tabs on the secret activities of the other party members for blackmail purposes later on. Naturally, the boss will have to keep honest ledgers, but for a LE party boss, that's not too hard. After all, by keeping honest books, the other party members will let him have physical control of the loot; if he has possession of the loot, he can minimize the chance that some of "his" wealth will be lost if a given party member deserts or dies.

This has the advantage of not requiring silly metagaming and not constraining the free-for-all that any Evil campaign should be. If possible, arrange for yourself to be the guy in charge :smallbiggrin:

Neutrino
2009-02-09, 02:36 AM
This is something that worked rather well when my friend and I wanted to discourage our slightly kleptomanic partymembers from trying to steal from us (this was all IC, by the way. IC problems are solved IC, OOC problems are solved OOC).

1. Aquire a box. Small and ornate, with a reasonably good lock on it. Get one that looks like it contains something valuable, so the thief'll go for it first if they happen to attempt to rob you.

2. Explosive Runes. As many as you feel like, though I kept it low enough that the rogue was unlikely to die from it. One-hitting someone for thievery isn't nice.
If you're too low/cheap to get a NPC to cast it for you, substitute with a similar long-duration spell.

3. Combine box and explosive runes. Hope that they attempt to open the box far away from your sleeping body.

After you've done this to them a few times, they will get the point and move onto easier targets. If they persist, escalate the yield and cover everything and anything you or they own with runes. Keep your eyes closed.

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 05:09 AM
This is something that worked rather well when my friend and I wanted to discourage our slightly kleptomanic partymembers from trying to steal from us (this was all IC, by the way. IC problems are solved IC, OOC problems are solved OOC).

1. Aquire a box. Small and ornate, with a reasonably good lock on it. Get one that looks like it contains something valuable, so the thief'll go for it first if they happen to attempt to rob you.

2. Explosive Runes. As many as you feel like, though I kept it low enough that the rogue was unlikely to die from it. One-hitting someone for thievery isn't nice.
If you're too low/cheap to get a NPC to cast it for you, substitute with a similar long-duration spell.

3. Combine box and explosive runes. Hope that they attempt to open the box far away from your sleeping body.

After you've done this to them a few times, they will get the point and move onto easier targets. If they persist, escalate the yield and cover everything and anything you or they own with runes. Keep your eyes closed.
Rogues can use a search check to find Explosive Runes (yes, even inside a box; if hiding a trap was as simple a matter as 'I put it on the inside', searching for traps would be impossible.) And they get to roll for every single one you put on the box, so adding a lot just makes it more likely they'll find them. You might trick them once, but after that, they'll just find the runes, then ignore the trapped object and steal everything else.

(Also, some rogues 'steal' from the party by palming more than their share of loot. This won't work on them.)


You're playing an evil campaign. Thems the breaks. :smallamused:

Slightly more helpfully, may I suggest acting in character?There's different kinds of evil campaigns, though. Not all evil characters constantly steal from each other; not every evil team is made out of four copies of Starscream. A group of bandits, assassins, or plotters can have committed ties to each other to the point where they'd never consider robbing one another. Even less scrupulous rogues often have a policy of not fouling their own nest; unless the rogue in question has an Int or Wis of 8 or something, you'd expect he'd realize that in the long term he stands to gain more by maintaining good relations with his group so they can go after bigger targets than from palming coppers out of their pockets until they (eventually) find him out.

It is also far more dangerous to steal from someone who sees you every day -- usually you only have to hope they don't notice the theft and connect it to you until you're safely away; with your party, you have to hope they never notice and never make that connection. That is, honestly, a losing bet.

There's hundreds of people out there... why are people in a certain type of evil campaign always so insistent about stealing from their party? Easy, because there's a lot more thrill outwitting or screwing over someone across the table from you than from outwitting some faceless NPC (who is, yes, controlled by the DM, but as the controller of the whole world the DM is partially letting you win by placing characters you can steal from in the first place, and isn't really invested in that one character besides.)

And I don't think that this is the kind of thing that should be confronted in-character. The real problem here is out of character -- in reality, you would not spend so much time so close to someone you don't know so well, and give them so many chances to steal from you. In reality, you would start mildly suspecting them at the first opportunity (you start traveling with some people and your things start vanishing -- not hard to figure out), and would probably just split up unless something of high value was stolen and you wanted to get it back. In reality, a rogue who stole from his companions would probably just run off with the loot to weedle his way into another group of friends so he can steal from them. It is your out-of-character reality that keeps you from doing this.

Likewise, threats of violence or traps won't discourage a determined rogue at all (if anything, it will encourage them, since it provides them with a fun challenge.) And, in all likelihood, that player-verses-player scheming isn't the kind of game the OP wants.

If you don't want to play a game where players steal from each other, backstab each other, and so on, that's something you should say outright and discuss with the group out-of-character. You should not be playing a game that you don't want to play, and you shouldn't be playing the game in the way you don't want to play it. If the rogue feels they absolutely have to steal from other players or it's no fun, and you simply can't stand it, then you will never be able to play together in the same group successfully.

Narmoth
2009-02-09, 05:35 AM
Mechanically, a player who suspects the thief for skimming them, should ask the thief. The thief will deny, and the player takes a sence motive check opposed by the thief players bluff check.
If the first player succeeds, the player have a strong suspicion in game that the thief is skimming them, and can take action against it.

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 07:39 AM
Mechanically, a player who suspects the thief for skimming them, should ask the thief. The thief will deny, and the player takes a sence motive check opposed by the thief players bluff check.
If the first player succeeds, the player have a strong suspicion in game that the thief is skimming them, and can take action against it.
Yes, but the thief is likely to have a very high sense motive. And that doesn't help when the basic problem has to do with the kind of game the players want to be playing, and not with anything in the setting.

Narmoth
2009-02-09, 07:52 AM
Yes, but the thief is likely to have a very high sense motive. And that doesn't help when the basic problem has to do with the kind of game the players want to be playing, and not with anything in the setting.

No, the thief is using his bluff skill (which yes, is likely very high).
I'm just telling how to transform it from metagaming to an in game action.
That he is unlikely to succeed isn't really the issue.
The out of game aspect of this I won't try to solve with game mechanisms.

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 07:54 AM
No, the thief is using his bluff skill (which yes, is likely very high).
I'm just telling how to transform it from metagaming to an in game action.
That he is unlikely to succeed isn't really the issue.
The out of game aspect of this I won't try to solve with game mechanisms.Whoops. Tired.

RebelRogue
2009-02-09, 08:50 AM
As has been noted on the in-game suggestions: a high-level rogue can bypass all of them (it's exactly things like that they're good at, for...). Really, this is a question of the players as a whole having fun or not, which is an OOC thing.

LibraryOgre
2009-02-09, 11:40 AM
Most parties have a Rogue in the party; they do decent melee damage and are excellent for the amount of skills they get. However, I fear that in our current campaign the Rogue will be trying to skim some cash off of the top. Our characters don't know, but we as players know damn well what's going on.

Is there a way to ensure that the Rogue does not steal from the party? This is an Evil Campaign, so if the Rogue actually steals for the party he is likely to be the subject of Animate Dead rather than Raise Dead. :smallamused:
How have you people dealt with Rogues who seem to be wearing Mithril Chain while everyone else is scrapping for Chain?

So... you're playing an evil game, and you're dismayed that the players are being evil?

Did you miss the definition of evil?

kalt
2009-02-09, 11:55 AM
Just remind the player that a party works as a team. When the "team" feels like a party member is no longer a reliable "team player" bad things can tend to happen.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-09, 12:00 PM
So... you're playing an evil game, and you're dismayed that the players are being evil?

Did you miss the definition of evil?

Evil does not constitute being untrustworthy. Theoretically, you are better off making a deal with Devil Prince rather than pulling a deal with a Paladin; the Devil will try to screw you every step of the way but he won't change the deal in the middle. Paladins are more concerned with upholding Law and Good than upholding deals.

I was mostly wondering if anyone had any problems with thieves in your party before and how it was dealt with.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-02-09, 12:27 PM
Evil does not constitute being untrustworthy. Theoretically, you are better off making a deal with Devil Prince rather than pulling a deal with a Paladin; the Devil will try to screw you every step of the way but he won't change the deal in the middle. Paladins are more concerned with upholding Law and Good than upholding deals.

No, evil pretty much does constitute being untrustworthy but not unpredictable, which is not the same thing. In your own theoretical example, making a deal with an Archduke is going to screw with you every step of the way, if not attempt to change the deal based on obscure clauses and conditions in your deal, despite...no BECAUSE you made a deal with him/them in the first place. That's the very definition of being untrustworthy.

The only reason you'd have to worry about the Paladin breaking his word to you would be if his word involved the Paladin doing something evil, if he wasn't ABLE to complete it, or if the paladin had to choose between your deal and something else of equal or greater value to Law and Good. Unlike the Arch-devil, you DON'T have to worry about the paladin lying or screwing with the oath just for the hell of it.


I was mostly wondering if anyone had any problems with thieves in your party before and how it was dealt with.

Another good question, but the OP really hasn't given much info on this problem.

Narmoth
2009-02-09, 12:31 PM
As has been noted on the in-game suggestions: a high-level rogue can bypass all of them (it's exactly things like that they're good at, for...). Really, this is a question of the players as a whole having fun or not, which is an OOC thing.

Not really, you just need someone with high sence motive, like a blackguard or a grey knight (if not all of the part were evil) or anyone else who actually thinks it would be good to have the skill

Delaney Gale
2009-02-09, 12:58 PM
Generally I'm on the other side of this... figuring out ways to steal from the party so they don't notice in-character. :)

If you're just noticing out-of-character and your rogue is halfway competent, there may be little you can do. However, in the case where your rogue is obviously spending more than they should have? Yeah, beat their punk ass down. You're evil, and they're obviously taking stuff from you.

A clever rogue stealing from the party will make it look like they're not stealing from the party. Or will "come clean" about it in small ways, and keep the big stuff well-hidden. If your rogue is stupid, they'll obviously fleece you. If they're smart, good luck getting IC justification.

kalt
2009-02-09, 01:04 PM
However, in the case where your rogue is obviously spending more than they should have? Yeah, beat their punk ass down. You're evil, and they're obviously taking stuff from you.

A clever rogue stealing from the party will make it look like they're not stealing from the party. Or will "come clean" about it in small ways, and keep the big stuff well-hidden. If your rogue is stupid, they'll obviously fleece you. If they're smart, good luck getting IC justification.


A bonus to being evil is even if you can't say for certain you can act on the hunch and just kill him to be certain. Then post mortum if you notice you are getting more loot than before congratulations your hunch was well deserved. It's not like you're going to fall from a gods good graces or *gasp* turn evil for killing a distrustful thief.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-09, 02:18 PM
There's different kinds of evil campaigns, though. Not all evil characters constantly steal from each other; not every evil team is made out of four copies of Starscream. A group of bandits, assassins, or plotters can have committed ties to each other to the point where they'd never consider robbing one another. Even less scrupulous rogues often have a policy of not fouling their own nest; unless the rogue in question has an Int or Wis of 8 or something, you'd expect he'd realize that in the long term he stands to gain more by maintaining good relations with his group so they can go after bigger targets than from palming coppers out of their pockets until they (eventually) find him out.

See, the point of being Evil is that you consider your own well being before anyone else.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

Now, does this mean that an Evil party is always going to be killing & stealing from each other? No, but it means that they may at any moment, if they judge it to be advantageous. Here, we're talking about a Thief palming silver and gold from loot piles when nobody else is around - low risk, and rewarding. Any NE or CE Rogue would do this, since they have both the skill to keep such theft unnoticed, and the opportunity.

The only way you can keep such a party in line is by strength; if a party member knows that their actions against the party will be quickly and surely punished, they will focus on fleecing other people. This is why I said a mighty LE boss is the best way to keep order. Or you can fudge it by saying they are all blood-brothers or members of a single Evil Order that will kill anyone who betrays their mission.

Yes, OOC is the easiest way to deal with this problem, because you need to use strong metagame principles to keep an Evil party from preying on itself. This may or may not be true IRL, but in D&D, that was clearly the intent of the designers. Here's a fine quote from TSR on Evil parties:


Some people choose to play evil alignments. Although there is no specific prohibition against this, there are several reasons why it is not a good idea. First, the AD&D game is a game of heroic fantasy. What is heroic about being a villain? If an evil aligned group plays its alignment correctly, it is as much a battle for the characters to work together as it is to take on the outside world. Neutral evil individuals would be paranoid (with some justification) that the others would betray them for profit or self-aggrandizement. Chaotic evil characters would try to get someone else to take all the risks so that they could become (or remain) strong and take over. Although lawful evil characters might have some code of conduct that governed their party, each member would look for ways to twist the rules to his own favor. A group of players who play a harmonious party of evil characters simply are not playing their alignments correctly. By its nature, evil alignments call for disharmony and squabbling, which destroys the fun.

hamishspence
2009-02-09, 02:49 PM
yes- BoVD, Savage Species, and Champion of Ruin gave Evil guys a bit more cohesiveness.

You can have Operative-types, who, apart from their utter ruthlessness, are very very loyal.

or CE could be realized as exceptionally savage freedom fighters, willing to do anything, no matter how horrible, for The Cause.

as Savage Species pointed out, Evil guys can be kind parents, loving spouses, loyal friends, without diminishing their evil in any way, and evil guys don't behave the same way toward everyone.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-09, 03:41 PM
yes- BoVD, Savage Species, and Champion of Ruin gave Evil guys a bit more cohesiveness.

You can have Operative-types, who, apart from their utter ruthlessness, are very very loyal.

or CE could be realized as exceptionally savage freedom fighters, willing to do anything, no matter how horrible, for The Cause.

as Savage Species pointed out, Evil guys can be kind parents, loving spouses, loyal friends, without diminishing their evil in any way, and evil guys don't behave the same way toward everyone.

Sure, but these are very specific circumstances:
- Bonds of family & friendship transcend alignment... though an Evil person may very well betray friends & family (particularly if CE) for their own benefit.
- Organizational ties may be stronger. Chaotic types are not known for their consistency generally; a CE Freedom Fighter may happily spend his gold on ale & whores rather than raising his comrades, for example.

Unless the party in question is a bunch of fanatics (devoted to Orcus or The Evil Overlord, or something) or a family unit, they just aren't going to hang together. Heck, even then there will be petty jealousies and internal rivalries which can result in bloodletting.

I'm aware that WotC wanted to sexy-up the Evil Party, but if you take alignment at all seriously you have to see that even the most "unified" Evil Party can (and will) contain people actively sabotaging their "allies." It's right in the alignment descriptions!

Prometheus
2009-02-09, 05:27 PM
I suggest a Mark of Justice. Right now.
Quoted for truth.

My (good) party put a curse on the Rogue not to steal from PCs unless he wants his hands transformed into tentacles (another popular favorite was mittens).

Rad
2009-02-09, 06:17 PM
An IC problem is when your sword get stolen and you are excited about the adventure to retrieve it.
An OoC problem is when your sword get stolen and you get upset about it.

DO NOT FIGHT OVER THIS IN GAME. The escalation is only going to raise arguments, and a great frustration for whoever loses the conflict. This is bad for your fun and kills the game.

Address the problem with everybody and come to an agreed solution between the players. If someone wants to play a paladin that doesn't give him the right to do so over the fun of everybody. If someone wants to play a thief that doesn't give him the right to do so over the fun of everybody.

Wafflecart
2009-02-09, 07:30 PM
if he steals, cut off his hand, just house-rule that he can still pick locks and disarm traps with one hand. also this cuts his melee, and he can no longer use a ranged attack without a hand crossbow.

Logalmier
2009-02-09, 09:35 PM
I suggest a Mark of Justice. Right now.

Yeah, that would work. The player couldn't refuse because he couldn't admit that he's been stealing from the party. Or if that didn't work the other players could just tackle him and force the mark on him.

OR the GM could rule that every time the players caught the player stealing then the party wizard gets to pop him with a magic missile. In extremely uncomfortable places.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-09, 09:48 PM
Rogues can use a search check to find Explosive Runes (yes, even inside a box; if hiding a trap was as simple a matter as 'I put it on the inside', searching for traps would be impossible.) And they get to roll for every single one you put on the box, so adding a lot just makes it more likely they'll find them. You might trick them once, but after that, they'll just find the runes, then ignore the trapped object and steal everything else.

Put Alarm on it too! Alarm can't be disabled (not a trap).

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 10:00 PM
Now, does this mean that an Evil party is always going to be killing & stealing from each other? No, but it means that they may at any moment, if they judge it to be advantageous. Here, we're talking about a Thief palming silver and gold from loot piles when nobody else is around - low risk, and rewarding. Any NE or CE Rogue would do this, since they have both the skill to keep such theft unnoticed, and the opportunity.It is not at all low risk. While the chance of detection might be low on any individual event, the results of discovery are catastrophic. But I'll get to that in due time -- first, the chances of being detected...

The first few times they're likely to be fine. The rogue isn't omniscient, though -- sooner or later, they're going to palm things when someone on the party has reason to suspect that there should be more treasure there. Maybe someone in the party glanced in that direction during the fight. Maybe they have enough relevant Knowledge skills to know that a temple of XYZ should have golden thingamabobs, or whatever. Someone might glance in at the wrong time and get a lucky Spot check, or the Rogue might flub a Bluff into a lucky Sense Motive when asked what they found. If the rogue spends too much of the extra cash they got or actually uses magical items, smarter minds in the party may eventually do the math and notice something's odd. Even if this happens once, it won't be a big deal, sure... But if the rogue keeps doing it, it'll eventually happen again, and people will get suspicious. Eventually they will get suspicious enough to use divinations (remember, a divination is a trivial expenditure of resources for a typical caster), at which point the game is up.

Now, let's say they're discovered. The character loses a hard-earned and vital support network, earns the enmity of people who know him better than anyone else, and is depending on the situation when they're discovered are quite likely to get killed with their body abandoned in the wilderness. Even if they manage to flee, chances are they're going to lose a big part of their wealth, since (even if they've been hiding stuff here and there) the party is going to likely know or at least suspect where any large and valuable property they own is. They will lose almost their entire life beyond what they can carry on their person and what they've managed to conceal from the party.

In fact, anything they've cached is likely as good as gone. The party is likely to immediately start using divinations to go after that to recoup their losses -- and teleportation to reach more quickly. The rogue can't even risk most of their stashes, because if they've been discovered or found via divination then there's a good chance that the muscle they use to rely on to help them in heists is already there, waiting to pound them into a pulp. This assumes, of course, that the party doesn't simply use divinations to exact revenge directly, in which case the rogue is screwed.

Even if they manage to escape all that and the party casters graciously decide not to hunt them down and make an example of them, what then? A rogue can't bring in anywhere near the amount of loot that a full party can (the downtime for injury alone is catastrophic, never mind the loss of buffs and magical transportation, or the added muscle of additional party members.) And they can't just find another party -- this isn't WoW; bands of committed adventurers can take a while to form, and are not something you get by running outside hollering "LFG lvls 9-11+!" They'll have crippled their income at least in the short term and possibly for good for the sake of a handful of stashed gold that, oh, yes, they couldn't really spend anyway.

The risk of getting caught is, in short, catastrophic. There is a reason for the term "honor among thieves", and why successful criminals who want to work in groups generally try to avoid fouling their own nests. The party, itself, is a far more valuable resource than anything the rogue could possibly stash; a handful of pocketed gold gets spent and is gone, while a good party keeps earning gold at a steadily-increasing rate for a long, long time. Only the most insanely, over-the-top death-wish chaotic-stupid characters (or those who are literally stupid, with an int or wis too low to think it through) would risk that for the sake of pocketing a handful of gold that they can't even spend without constantly watching their back.

At lower levels the rogue's skill checks are going to be too low to reliably deceive even unskilled party members (and Sense Motive is a skill that it doesn't hurt to put a few points into, since everyone rolls it -- and if they're asked what they found in front of the party, everyone gets to roll it against them, so the first time they hit a low number they're in serious danger of being found out.) At higher levels... well, however slim the chance of discovery is, are you going to risk your relationship with multiple high-level casters who are normally willing to cast spells, heal you, bring you back from the dead and do countless other useful things on your behalf for free -- people who could, incidentally, read your mind with a moment's effort, divine your location with absolute precision from the other side of the planet, then arrive there with their friends in tow within six seconds -- just so you can scam them out of a handful of grubby gold coins? I think you would have to be rather far beyond 'typical' chaotic to even seriously contemplate that.

I'm not saying that rogues would never steal from their friends, allies, and party members, of course. But I disagree with your assertion that it would be "typical" evil behavior. It isn't merely evil; it is recklessly self-destructive, and only the most extreme of insane-chaotic, daredevil, or outright stupid characters would do it. Plenty of merely evil characters concerned with being fat and happy or grabbing what they can for themselves with minimal risk are going to look at their 'friends' and decide it's better off keeping these people on their good side.

RavKal
2009-02-09, 10:59 PM
This would be where I subtly started pushing the group into traps and the like that the rogue couldn't handle. Like, say, at level 5 you have the rogue lead the group into a CR15 dungeon, or w/e you like.

Long story short, make the game kill him.

Seffbasilisk
2009-02-09, 11:06 PM
Since it's merely an OOC issue, I'd talk to him OOC.

When it becomes an IC issues (characters become aware, lucky/unlucky roll, etc.) then deal with it IC. And keep in mind, even Lawful-Good Dwarven societies, cut a hand off of thieves.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-10, 01:11 AM
I'm not saying that rogues would never steal from their friends, allies, and party members, of course. But I disagree with your assertion that it would be "typical" evil behavior. It isn't merely evil; it is recklessly self-destructive, and only the most extreme of insane-chaotic, daredevil, or outright stupid characters would do it. Plenty of merely evil characters concerned with being fat and happy or grabbing what they can for themselves with minimal risk are going to look at their 'friends' and decide it's better off keeping these people on their good side.

Well then, it sounds like the OP doesn't have a problem, does he? :smalltongue:

Seriously, if any PC was as risk-adverse as your Rogue was, they'd stay home and chisel the local authorities rather than go out and risk their neck in the wilderness. Most PCs have the kind of moxie that causes them to go out and chop up hordes of orcs or pry rubies out of ancient statues in cursed ruins; the threat of maybe being forced to turn over some cached loot isn't going to stop him from trying if he thinks he can get away with it.

This is because the "not WoW" is a two-way street. The Rogue is a valuable member of the party, and the party can't easily replace him with another person. Do you think they would kick out someone just for skimming a little off the top? It's not like he's assaulted another PC, or stole all of the party's loot. Heck, the Rogue might have brought in more extra loot than he stole thanks to his "special abilities." The trick is to walk the line between "missing out on opportunities" and "being more trouble than your worth."

See, the problem is that you're framing the question as "any betrayal leads to catastrophe" rather than "how much betrayal will lead to catastrophe?" As I've noted before, Evil characters place themselves before others; in fact, they actively sacrifice others for their own gain. The degree of sacrificing varies from person to person, but rest assured, they will make them.

EDIT:
To elaborate
You have compiled a list of why, in the long run, it is catastrophic for any evil PC to work against his party members. As a result, you posit that only the rare evil character would risk his allies by working against them. This flatly contradicts the very ethos of being Evil. I mean, look at the three Evil alignments:


A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts.


A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with.


A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do.

These are people who take what they want without regard to others. At best, they worry about the impact their decisions will have on themselves. If they are convinced that they cannot get away with anything, and an attempt to do so will bring utter destruction, then there's no way in hell they're going to try. But they will take risks, and adventurers take more risks than most.

Look at our theoretical Rogue. He'll have Bluff, Forgery, and Sleight of Hand; these are opposed by Sense Motive, Forgery, and Spot. Of all possible classes, only Rogues, Rangers, and Bards have these counter-skills trained. Thanks to the skill system, by level 2 he'll have a very good chance of beating anyone trying to detect his deceit - and anyone he can't fool, he can cut in. Do you think the other evil party members are going to rat him out, if they're getting a piece of the action too?

Any Rogue worth his salt should be confident enough to be able to fool most of the people most of the time, and he'll know it. Look at the alignments above - only LE Rogues might not try to skim off the top; NE and CE types will just go for it!

Evil Stupid is when you knife your barbarian because you're mad, or when you start stabbing allies in their sleep to take their loot. You are certain to get caught and/or lose. Pocketing the occasional gem or coin purse when rummaging through a treasure horde? Hard to detect, and if caught, easy to beat the rap.

This is exactly why I said the best IC response is to have a LE Boss impose strict controls on party wealth. It makes it difficult for the Rogue to hide his thievery and makes the disproportionate response obvious from the get go... provided the Rogue is confident the Boss can enforce his threats.

Prak
2009-02-10, 01:25 AM
So... you're playing an evil game, and you're dismayed that the players are being evil?

Did you miss the definition of evil?

did you miss the part where an adventuring party is often more akin to a business arrangement than a group of friends?

If your boss at pentex catches you skimming from the company till, or taking his bottle of Jack from his desk, he won't hold it against you, but he will fire your ass (at best).

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-10, 01:33 AM
did you miss the part where an adventuring party is often more akin to a business arrangement than a group of friends?

If your boss at pentex catches you skimming from the company till, or taking his bottle of Jack from his desk, he won't hold it against you, but he will fire your ass (at best).

Unless you cut him in on the swindle, or if your thefts are minor compared to your value to the company.

C'mon, we're talking Smart Evil, not Stupid Evil here.

Besides, it can be awful hard to "fire" the party thief without finding a dagger in your back the next morning. Unless you think you can convince the party bruiser to go along with you... and the thief was so unwise as not to have him cut in on the take :smallamused:

Prak
2009-02-10, 02:18 AM
Unless you cut him in on the swindle, or if your thefts are minor compared to your value to the company.

C'mon, we're talking Smart Evil, not Stupid Evil here.
Good point, and glad someone seems to know what the hell I'm talking about.



Besides, it can be awful hard to "fire" the party thief without finding a dagger in your back the next morning. Unless you think you can convince the party bruiser to go along with you... and the thief was so unwise as not to have him cut in on the take :smallamused:
Point still stands, the party will either be 3 against one, or 2 on 2 (assuming standard 4 man team), but either the thief is gone, or his lone accuser who isn't in on it is dead, so on and so forth.

ericgrau
2009-02-10, 02:24 AM
The evil party isn't a bit suspicious in character that the evil rogue will steal from them?

Besides that evil characters don't automatically steal from eachother and backstab eachother at every turn. That's because people tend to get them back for it. Only "stupid evil" actually attempts this, unless they have an elaborate plan, a getaway route, and a reason to not need the party anymore. Usually evil gets along with allies just fine; at least well enough that any attempts at self-gain are verbal. It's everyone else that gets shafted.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-10, 03:03 AM
Besides that evil characters don't automatically steal from eachother and backstab eachother at every turn. That's because people tend to get them back for it. Only "stupid evil" actually attempts this, unless they have an elaborate plan, a getaway route, and a reason to not need the party anymore. Usually evil gets along with allies just fine; at least well enough that any attempts at self-gain are verbal. It's everyone else that gets shafted.

Pshaw. Any book of fantasy shows that the upper echelons of Evil Power Structures are full of folks running around trying to jockey for position or at least protect themselves from harm. And words aren't going to protect you if the Barbarian decides your sword would look better on him, or the Boss thinks that he should hold onto those scrolls "for safekeeping." Unless you want to be the bottom of the totem pole, you're going to need something a bit stronger than taunts.

C'mon folks, look at the descriptions:


A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts.


A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with.


A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do.

These guys decide to only focus their Evil attention on others? Seriously? Are these guys Punch Clock Villains (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunchClockVillain) or something? Weekend Warlords? :smallconfused:

Good and Neutral PCs have the excuse of either caring about others generally, or at least not wanting to rock the boat. Unless the Evil PCs have a damn compelling reason to not suspect the others of treachery (ever!), or that any treachery will be punished, they had better be doing their best to stay ahead of everyone else.

horseboy
2009-02-10, 03:44 AM
Good and Neutral PCs have the excuse of either caring about others generally, or at least not wanting to rock the boat. Unless the Evil PCs have a damn compelling reason to not suspect the others of treachery (ever!), or that any treachery will be punished, they had better be doing their best to stay ahead of everyone else.
You know, I was watching the Hitler channel the other day and they had this show about "The 10 Commandments of the Mafia". It was very interesting. Basically it worked because they had a hierarchy of domination. It's one of the few ways "evil" can work together. Of course, such domination of other PC's usually violates the social agreement of the group. So, they tend to still function like "good" and "neutral" parties, since that's one of the "icky" parts of playing evil, having to submit to someone else.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-10, 03:47 AM
You know, I was watching the Hitler channel the other day and they had this show about "The 10 Commandments of the Mafia". It was very interesting. Basically it worked because they had a hierarchy of domination. It's one of the few ways "evil" can work together. Of course, such domination of other PC's usually violates the social agreement of the group. So, they tend to still function like "good" and "neutral" parties, since that's one of the "icky" parts of playing evil, having to submit to someone else.

Specifically, it's a LE form of organization. The only reason why it functions is because of the credible threat that the higher-ups will enforce the "laws" and absolutely punish any defectors. In an isolated adventuring party, this is far less credible. Who are the "higher ups" and can they catch you before you escape or kill them?

And even in the Mafias, you still have interparty conflict when various factions seek dominance over the others, or intraparty conflict when someone wants to be the new boss. Harmonious, these ain't.

By contrast, Good parties function with the implicit belief that other party members won't stab you in the back because they're Good People. Or at least that if they do backstab you, it will be for a Very Good Reason - not just "to get more power." Neutral parties are characterized by not having the "guts" to ruthlessly gain power like members of an Evil party would; they have ethical qualms about backstabbing for mere personal gain.

skyclad
2009-02-10, 04:21 AM
Whats the problem, the evil theif is stealing from his own party, sounds about right to me?next time when dividing up the loot tell him he is not getting any of it and if he has a problem we is welcome to try and fight you over it :P

Prak
2009-02-10, 04:56 PM
There's a saying, "You don't s#!t where you eat."

It means that an intelligent person (read:pretty much any species of animal) doesn't befoul the place where it profits. If you steal from your party, you're going to get your party pissed off at you. Cutting the big dumb orc in on the action might work, he might be too short sighted to realize that a party member that steals from the party won't hold to "deals," he'll do as he pleases. Any other party member should be able to see this.

There's a difference between swiping a few extra shinies as you open the treasure chest, and picking your fighter buddy's pocket. One is, while poor taste, acceptable even from a neutral good rogue (Haley), the other is just plain stupid and s#!ting where one eats.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-10, 05:06 PM
There's a difference between swiping a few extra shinies as you open the treasure chest, and picking your fighter buddy's pocket. One is, while poor taste, acceptable even from a neutral good rogue (Haley), the other is just plain stupid and s#!ting where one eats.

Absolutely. It so happens the party thief was planning to do the former, not the later :smallbiggrin:

In any case, other "good" times to steal are:
(1) Robbing hostages
(2) Stealing goods off of non-rezzable party corpses
(3) Double-extorting people you've already shaken down

Prak
2009-02-10, 05:12 PM
(2) Stealing goods off of non-rezzable party corpses

I think this is about the only time it's acceptable for an evil party to be at each other's throats... It's kinda SOP for most parties to divvy up a fallen comrades' gear.

It gets really good when the rogue has just swiped the +3 longsword that the fighter wanted.

F:"Where the frak's his sword!?"
R:"Gorgon ate it."
F:"Really? Wow, I knew those snake chicks were freaky, but.."
R:"No, no, remember, in this game the gorgons are giant metal bulls."
F:"Oh."
R:"But you had to completely bypass the inherent comedy in euphemisms about his blade being swallowed? For shame..."
F:"Can I get a do over?"
R:"No."

PurinaDragonCho
2009-02-10, 05:19 PM
If your characters have no idea he's stealing, this is a case of extreme metagaming.


By the same token, if they catch the thief with stolen goods, it's ONLY metagaming that would keep them from killing him. A certain amount of metagaming happens to keep a group together at all. Why else would you adventure with people you don't even know? You trust them because of metagaming (to some extent).

I've had this problem before - a guy sitting across the table rolling dice to see if he can get away with stealing stuff from everybody else sitting at the table. Our CHARACTERS didn't know - but the PLAYERS definitely did. Later he used an item that we could trace back to a particular location, so we became suspicious. After that, we searched his gear and found evidence, and then were faced with the decision as to what to do about it. We were all neutral, and were being chased by people for reasons we didn't yet understand. For all we knew, this guy was working for our enemies. We metagamed enough not to kill his character. But he left the group not long after that anyway. The "hey, man, I'm just playing the character" argument only goes so far. As in, "well, hey man, the rest of these characters would wear your skin as a hat."

I guess it's only a problem if everyone else has the team concept and one guy has the looking-out-for-number-one concept.