Why V is a guy =proof=

[Sunday]

I believe V is a guy. I also believe V's mate is a guy. Not because of their children (strange and discoloured as they are) but because of this:

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/shouldiers.png http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/elffemale.png
[edit: Lirian added for female elf comparison]

Now I'm sure you're about to ask, "what chu on about foo'? why ya giving us an array of pictures of peoples heads?"
firstly, I'm not giving you an array of peoples heads, I'm giving you an array of peoples shouldiers. As an artist I know that men have square shouldiers, and women have curved shouldiers. Of course you can argue OotS is a stick comic, (enphisis on stick) basic artistic rules don't apply. But they do. With V's robe on you can argue that he could look either male or female because it hides V's form quite well. But really, V would have to be one dykish woman when compared to all the other females in OotS for none of the sterotypical woman features to appear when his naked.
Seriously, look at the image of V hiding behind a dragon. Does his shouldiers look more like Elen's or Haleys? there is no gentle curve that Haley's shouldiers have, or any of the females have. Even if they're wearing armour they still have it. Female Roy had the clear change in shouldiers.
http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/roy.png
see the difference between the bodys? Naked V completely lacks that curve. I don't care how loose fitting his clothing may be. but out of them he has a body of a man. Elves are not known for haveing big heavy bodies, so I don't think V is a manly girl. He has mans shouldiers he is a man.
As for the mate.... well he also has man shouldiers. He is not even wearing anything loose fitting. I don't think the giant was trying to hide his gender, as he already knows that we're confused as it is over V's gender. why would he need to?
Which leads me to conclude... both are male. the shouldiers never lie.

[MickJay]

Unless the author wants to make things obscure and purposefully changes some of the secondary characteristic features of the characters to make their sex more ambiguous.:smallbiggrin:

Good observation about the shoulders (at least it looks convincing). Still, even though V was supposed to be a guy from the start, he lost that part of his identity long time ago.

[Yarram]

Also notice that V's shoulders are WIDER than the men's (about the same width as the girls) making it more ambiguous still.

[Sunday]

V's shouldiers actually look around Elan's size to be honest. He's obviously not a very masculine guy. (well duh) I suppose someone could argue that V. could just be flat chested for a girl. But I still think he'd have that tiny curve downwards to make the shouldiers slightly narrower and curvier looking that the other girls have.

[Azrooh]

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, Rich writes this comic? That maybe elves are genderless in the comic that Rich writes? His writing = his rules. We havn't even seen an elf we can 100% confirm as male/female either.

[Yeril]

Think about this: If the giant wanted V to be Possibly male, Possibly Female, would he give V a curved figure and boobs?

[Sunday]

it is true it is Rich's comic... but I think you'll find V is his own character.... (if you were a writer you'd understand what I mean)
I myself write and draw a webcomic. And last week I had to draw a strip feating my fan's faverite Character which is usually represented as a blue box with text. but they were in a sort of... metal tank with a circular clear window so you could see their face and shouldiers. I had been avoiding this characters sexuality so far through the comic because as far as my fans are conserned the character is just a blue box with words. but I knew what the characters true sex and appearance was, but still did not want the readership to know. So to hide the characters gender I used their hair to cover up a large portion of the chest to hide away any hints of their sexuality, but I still shaded the chest area in the same way their gender would be shaded. Because at the end of the day, they are still that gender. And you know how my damn fans figured out whether it was a girl or a friggen boy? By seeing that I had given them girly shouldiers.
I'm sure you could argue to the sun and back about V's gender but I still think you'll find that Rich knows what gender V is. Rich knows we the fans have no clue what V is and so keeps up this whole sexual debate, probably to amuse himself. (for comic writers get giant sadistic kicks out of things like that) but I bet when he had to draw V hiding naked behind the dragon he wasn't thinking "must hide sexuality" it was probably "must hide sexuality best I can, but I'll still make it freaking obviouse because then I can get giggles out of how i've shown everyone what gender V is and they have still not figured it out"
often not in works of fiction the biggest mysteries are often solved and paraded around in front of your face as soon as possible. so evil writers who get giant kicks out of doing so can feel good in the morning.
don't believe this? think back to all the comics, movies, books that something hugely significant happened in, where it was already hinted or directly given away to right at the beginning. writers do it to feel clever. you cannot trust them. especially Rich. because to me he seems like the kind of writer who does get good feelings about these sort of things.

[magic9mushroom]

@ all those talking about "no boobs, hence guy":

"I do, actually, but they are not nearly so large."

[hamishspence]

Gemstones. Though the rest of the order did misinterpret it this way- maybe it was foreshadowing.

[Nibelung]

We havn't even seen an elf we can 100% confirm as male/female either.

Lirian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) is female.

[Emperor Demonking]

Am I the only one who thought it'd be about eyes when I saw the pictures?

Also, in the beginning V was male, its possible that The Giant just didn't want to do an art change.

[Sunday]

yup, and we're not debating about her sexuality. but then again she is wearing female clothing.
I personaly think, and hope V.'s gender will be revealed shortly in the future. Rich can't hide it forever, it's hilariouse how well his done so far. I'm still betting on male. a gay male. (well actually his elven so i guess bisexual male...)

[Charmy]

I believe V is a guy. I also believe V's mate is a guy.


Great post Sunday, I agree completely. I recommend you add a picture of Lirian the female elf druid to seal the deal.

Either V and his mate happen to be extremely manly looking elf women, or they're both guys. Being gay myself I find that pretty frickin awesome I gotta say :smallbiggrin:

[Spiryt]

Welcome to 5948th " I know V's gender!!!!!!!" thread, Ladies and Gentelmen.

[Sunday]

Also, in the beginning V was male, its possible that The Giant just didn't want to do an art change.

if V. was meant to be a guy at the beginning he is still a guy now. Characters do not magicaly change gender. (without a spell at least :P)


Either V and his mate happen to be extremely manly looking elf women, or they're both guys. Being gay myself I find that pretty frickin awesome I gotta say

well I thought about the flat chestedness, and I thought about the possibility of them being very masculine women... and then I remembered they were freaking ELVES. as likely as not in fiction elf women have nice racks and a pixie like figure. so masculine women are out of the picture. and I am very doubtful on the flat chestedness because I still maintain V would still have had a curve of sorts.


Welcome to 5948th " I know V's gender!!!!!!!" thread, Ladies and Gentelmen.

and how many of the other 5947 threads based off their theory from the art?

[Zevox]

and how many of the other 5947 threads based off their theory from the art?
Probably somewhere between a third and half of them. If you haven't been reading these forums very long, you wouldn't believe how many "V's body is square-shaped, therefore he's male!" arguments we've had (there was also at least one about the height of the eyes on the characters' heads, too).

Zevox

[hamishspence]

I think Eye height ended up with- Halfway between- no conclusions possible.

[Sunday]

Probably somewhere between a third and half of them. If you haven't been reading these forums very long, you wouldn't believe how many "V's body is square-shaped, therefore he's male!" arguments we've had (there was also at least one about the height of the eyes on the characters' heads, too).

Zevox

See i'm not a big forum goer. I've been reading this comic since Elan opened up the door and found the Liniar Guild. but only when the strip is getting really good do I like to nosey around on the forums to listen to other peoples theories about whats gona happen next. but I didn't join until about a year ago, and I haven't posted hardly anything. cause I'm not a big forum goer.

You can argue about body shape all you like. but with his robes you aint gona get nothing. I looked back to see if I could find a female wizard and when I found one that I presumed was female she had her boobs hidden by the robe. but mine is shouldier shape. the shouldiers reveal all. always.
I don't see how you can have an eye arguement.... Eyes relate nothing back to gender... or maybe they were thinking that it was Rick's way of confirming gender? sounds kinda naff.
but still. I maintain V is a guy. just cause loads of other people have said the same thing for same/different reasons change nothing! I included pictures ^^

[Spiryt]

You can argue about body shape all you like. but with his robes you aint gona get nothing. I looked back to see if I could find a female wizard and when I found one that I presumed was female she had her boobs hidden by the robe. but mine is shouldier shape. the shouldiers reveal all. always.
I don't see how you can have an eye arguement.... Eyes relate nothing back to gender... or maybe they were thinking that it was Rick's way of confirming gender? sounds kinda naff.
but still. I maintain V is a guy. just cause loads of other people have said the same thing for same/different reasons change nothing! I included pictures ^^

The thing is simple: The Giant consciously makes V's gender unrecognizable, beacuse that's his reoccuring gag.

So you :
a) Don't believe it and think that despite all evidence Giant has fixed V's gender in mind and his giving us hints.
b) Giant is some kind of "slave" of his art and since he had drawn V in "male way" in some aspect*, (s)he must be male.

Both are equally improbable, and tons of things, like the very newest comic, suggest that V's gender is no data. And of course hundreds of people had already stated this.

EDIT:* What Zevox is writing is of course also true, we don't know if V's even really drawn in "male way".

[Zevox]

You can argue about body shape all you like. but with his robes you aint gona get nothing. I looked back to see if I could find a female wizard and when I found one that I presumed was female she had her boobs hidden by the robe. but mine is shouldier shape. the shouldiers reveal all. always.
You do realize that an argument about shoulders is just the same as the argument about square bodies, just focusing on only two corners of the square, right?


I don't see how you can have an eye arguement.... Eyes relate nothing back to gender... or maybe they were thinking that it was Rick's way of confirming gender? sounds kinda naff.
It was something about Rich always drawing the eyes on female characters lower than on male characters. As hamish said, I think the result of it was that V's eyes were in between anyway.

Zevox

[InaVegt]

Another important thing is eye height.

In Burlewian style, men have their eyes higher than women. (For proof that this intentional rather than coincidence, look at the comparison between guy-roy and girl-roy.)

V has eye height as high as men.

[Sonar009]

I've started to respond to these with a pun style groan.

Alright, any 'proof' you find of V's gender/sex is retroactively incorrect, I.E. the moment you prove it, Rich switches it to the other gender. If you call V male, she is female. If you call V female, then he is male. It's a cycle, a loop. Rich is not compelled to stick with one gender. As there is no direct, irrevocable proof (and likely there won't be) in the comic, Rich can change V's gender all he wants.


Thank you for your time.

-Peace,
Sonar009

[Sunday]

The thing is simple: The Giant consciously makes V's gender unrecognizable, beacuse that's his reoccuring gag.

So you :
a) Don't believe it and think that despite all evidence Giant has fixed V's gender in mind and his giving us hints.
b) Giant is some kind of "slave" of his art and since he had drawn V in "male way" in some aspect, (s)he must be male.

Both are equally improbable, and tons of things, like the very newest comic, suggest that V's gender is no data. And of course hundreds of people had already stated this.

Well if I had never ventured onto the forums I would have never really noticed that V.'s gender was meant to be a joke... I kinda thought it was just meant to be the cast were a bit confused because he was an elf. But I never thought anyone else other than the cast could be confused about it. He has always been a man to me, even before the whole dragon incident. I guess it's because to me V has some very masculine peronality qualities. But hey whatever, I guess I pick up on those because I'm a writer. the fact that he lack boobs is just a happy cowincidence. and nobody will buy the whole "he acts like a guy, he is a guy" arguement anymore, because of the whole tom boy girl characters you seem to get in plauges these days. but Haley kinda fits that quota which means V. doesn't act male because his a masculine like girl. V acts like a man cause his a man.
I still think that if I read order of the stick today, without any previouse knowledge on it. and then I came onto the forums I would still be like "why they calling V a hir? is that some kind of collosul typo joke?" before reflecting on Rick's use of purposeful confusion being more than an elven gender joke to a purposefully confusing the fans joke.
To me it seems the more the fans are confused about the gender, the more funny the joke actually gets.


You do realize that an argument about shoulders is just the same as the argument about square bodies, just focusing on only two corners of the square, right?

Well haley isen't a square. she's an hourglass. and if she wore a robe, I'm pretty sure her hourglass figure would still be noticable in some way. V. does have a square like body with how his robes hang off him. But I'd never focus far too much on clothing simply because this is a stick comic. Artistically I would say V.'s a guy simply cause he wears the robe like they would fit a man. Which is why I'm focusing more on V without clothing. And besides. the shouldier arguement is valid. it's not like V. was freaking naked at the beginning of the comic when Rick didn't know what he was doing. this is like over 100 pages in. when Rick has a plot, he has a good idea of his characters. And I don't care what anyone says. If V was a girl Rick would have drawn him as a girl behind that dragon.

[Sunday]

I've started to respond to these with a pun style groan.

Alright, any 'proof' you find of V's gender/sex is retroactively incorrect, I.E. the moment you prove it, Rich switches it to the other gender. If you call V male, she is female. If you call V female, then he is male. It's a cycle, a loop. Rich is not compelled to stick with one gender. As there is no direct, irrevocable proof (and likely there won't be) in the comic, Rich can change V's gender all he wants.


Thank you for your time.

-Peace,
Sonar009



..... no. just no. in all likely hood when Rick got 50 comics into this he had already decided on the factors of each of the characters. It would have been set in stone. a writer does not change a characters gender just to spite fans. because he will know whatever gender he keeps it at will always shock and delight fans when it is relieved. what would be the point? He might give the character more girlier or more masculine moments. But that character will always, always be the same gender throughout the story. If Rick decided V was a girl when he started OotS then V is still a girl now. if he diced V was a man at the beginning of the strip V is still a man. V does not get plastic surgery every other strip just to spite fans.
it is more pleasing to a write to know something for definet about a character that no one else knows then to keep changing it just to be a jerk.

[Greg]

it is true it is Rich's comic... but I think you'll find V is his own character.... (if you were a writer you'd understand what I mean)
Are you a writer? With that punctuation..? :smalleek: I hope you have your work proofread.

OT - Giant has said that V was originally male, but that some people thought he was female. This made the Giant make V ambiguous - he found it amusing (and it's a retcon). That's the story. I believe it was mentioned in OotPCs, although I could be wrong with the reference.

[Lira]

OT - Giant has said that V was originally male, but that some people thought he was female.Rich never actually specified what gender V started as.[/nitpick]

[Greg]

Rich never actually specified what gender V started as.[/nitpick]
Did he not? I recall that he stated he had a fixed gender in mind at the start of the comic.

[hamishspence]

DCF: "The character's gender ambiguity was not planned, but after seeing debates by fans on either sides of the issue, I decided to take that particular ball and run with it."

[Lira]

Did he not? I recall that he stated he had a fixed gender in mind at the start of the comic.
He did state that, but he didn't state which gender.

[Sunday]

Are you a writer? With that punctuation..? :smalleek: I hope you have your work proofread.



I'm a dislexsic comic writer/artist who is doing a creative writing with english literature course at univercity (yes I got a funny look from my univercity interviewer when I applied)
and usually I spend allot of time editing and rereading my work. usually I have a spellcheck on my firefox but i'm forced into using my laptop this week which doesn't have one. and without it on I don't believe in checking my spelling in forums of all places. (unless they're rp forums i guess..)



OT - Giant has said that V was originally male, but that some people thought he was female. This made the Giant make V ambiguous - he found it amusing (and it's a retcon). That's the story. I believe it was mentioned in OotPCs, although I could be wrong with the reference.

I don't know.... I get a feeling in his writing that he is making V's gender more ambigouse than it origernally was. like I said. I would probably not picked up upon it being anymore than a joke at elves and their feminity if I visited the forum and realised he was doing it to have a cheap giggle at his fan base. I don't know... what is the usual arguement to V being female? I've seen a few floating around, but none that might convince me to change my mind.

[Greg]

Apologies for the mistake on initial gender.

Your spelling is fine - I just had some problems reading your post due to the punctuation. The colour settings here aren't too kind to my eyes.

There is no specific argument for V being female except for belief of the reader. If Rich wants it to remain ambiguous, it is. The way V is drawn indicate that he/she is male, but its stated to be ambiguous.

[Spiryt]

I don't know... what is the usual arguement to V being female? I've seen a few floating around, but none that might convince me to change my mind.

The same as for being male. You take one behavior, like here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), decide that it must be girlish beacuse "man wouldn't talk about fashion" and you're done, V's girl.

Of course it didn't prove anything. Like, as many said before 100% of those arguments.

[hamishspence]

others- Roy's angels, Haley rooming only with V, but most evidence is unconclusive either way.

[Spiryt]

others- Roy's angels,

I forgot about that one, and it actually probably make at least some sense.

[Sunday]

really? my spelling is usually eye meltingly aweful.


The same as for being male. You take one behavior, like here, decide that it must be girlish beacuse "man wouldn't talk about fashion" and you're done, V's girl.

Of course it didn't prove anything. Like, as many said before 100% of those arguments.

V is an elf, elves are usually considered to be bisexual... and what I've seen of his partner he seems to favour men, so if his gay his fashion sence makes sence. but... having a fashion sence proves nothing. as this is a fantasy comic. most fantasy being based off middel ages england (and europe) where fashion did play a big role in socities and social class.


others- Roy's angels, Haley rooming only with V, but most evidence is unconclusive either way

I think he shares a room with Haley, probably because in the past his awoken to Belkar trying to find out what gender he is. and has since refused to share.
I don't remember the angels? if they were a figment of roy's imaginasion then it's because Roy views V as female, not because V is female.

But as ambiguous as the giant likes to make his gender, I think you'll find that V is not one of those Dogma angels under that robe :p he probably just likes messy people around, playing on the joke. V does have a gender. and it's probably still male.

[hamishspence]

strip where they burst into the dwarven assassin's room was called "Roy's angels"

[AtomicKitKat]

The same as for being male. You take one behavior, like here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), decide that it must be girlish beacuse "man wouldn't talk about fashion" and you're done, V's girl.

Of course it didn't prove anything. Like, as many said before 100% of those arguments.

Wha-huh? There've been way more "proofs" with regards to V being male than female. If not for the various forum nukes over the years(mostly hardware being unable to support the huge bandwidth hits the site takes everytime a new comic appears), I'd be able to dig back to the very first post(topic thread for comic number 009) that started the whole confusion. As it stands, all I remember was somebody with a squirrel(or some other rodent) in their name questioned the use of "V-man" by Roy, and Rich decided to run with it from then on. Ask anyone who joined before me.

The eyes: V's eyes are about 80% towards the male side, after accounting for image enlargement(being an elf, he's got a smaller head than most of the others) and 20% female.

Shoulders: Been there, done that. Elves tend to be rather slimly built. Unless they're warriors, then they're more "fitness model"y and less "Conan the Agrarian"y.:smallamused:

[Sunday]

strip where they burst into the dwarven assassin's room was called "Roy's angels"

oh then. that's anouther elven feminity joke. not calling V a girl.

[The Blackbird]

The Giant is going to have different strips that might have moments that have people guess V's gender. I doubt that he makes any specific threads that clarify his/her gender if for whatever reason he does reveal V's gender he will not need to explain *it has because his shoulder, eyes, left foot, etc were all some different shape* thats just what his/her gender will be when shown if ever.

[SinsI]

Since V has children and he is out adventuring without them he is male and his mate is a female. In Middle Ages, only males could leave their children behind - mothers always had to be with them.

[hamishspence]

this....isn't the middle ages.

Though one could make a case that, in the absence of formula milk, the stay-at-home parent is more likely to be female, but thats based on biology.

That is, if they haven't been alternating since the children were born.

[Lira]

Though one could make a case that, in the absence of formula milk, the stay-at-home parent is more likely to be female, but thats based on biology.

That is, if they haven't been alternating since the children were born.Since the kids are old enough to be in Kindergarten, they probably haven't needed breast milk for years...

[hamishspence]

true, given they are 26 and V said "20 years in diapers" in Origin, V has probably not been adventuring long enough for it to matter. After all, when V joined the order it was about 2 years ago, game time. Not much.

[Sholos]

really? my spelling is usually eye meltingly aweful.

V is an elf, elves are usually considered to be bisexual... and what I've seen of his partner he seems to favour men, so if his gay his fashion sence makes sence. but... having a fashion sence proves nothing. as this is a fantasy comic. most fantasy being based off middel ages england (and europe) where fashion did play a big role in socities and social class.

Since when have elves been bisexual by nature? That's got to be something new, because I haven't really heard of it except by authors who want their elves to be hippy, peace- and nature-loving elves (*cough*Paolini*cough*). And if you're running off of a middle ages format, then the chances of V being gay are way, way down there. Also, I don't see how V being gay would add anything to the strip.


I think he shares a room with Haley, probably because in the past his awoken to Belkar trying to find out what gender he is. and has since refused to share.
I don't remember the angels? if they were a figment of roy's imaginasion then it's because Roy views V as female, not because V is female.
Says you. The actual reality is that (I am sure) Rich will continue to drop hints on both sides in order to fuel the ambiguity. Because it's V's running gag. Face it, at this point V isn't really male or female.


But as ambiguous as the giant likes to make his gender, I think you'll find that V is not one of those Dogma angels under that robe :p he probably just likes messy people around, playing on the joke. V does have a gender. and it's probably still male.
V may have once had a gender, but because the Giant has said that he has no plans to reveal it, I fully expect V's gender to remain "whatever the reader wants it to be".

[Kish]

this....isn't the middle ages.
It's amazing that someone would make that kind of blithe "in the middle ages X, therefore X" assertion in the face of all the "not a parallel to real-world Middle Ages and, oh yeah, very much NOT HUMAN" information presented in the strip itself.

Myself, I know when I see 26-year old kindergartners making glitter-and-macaroni sculptures for their Other Parents, the first thing I think is "yep, that's just like the Middle Ages."

[Sunday]

Since when have elves been bisexual by nature? That's got to be something new, because I haven't really heard of it except by authors who want their elves to be hippy, peace- and nature-loving elves (*cough*Paolini*cough*). And if you're running off of a middle ages format, then the chances of V being gay are way, way down there. Also, I don't see how V being gay would add anything to the strip.



uh.... I don't know about in DnD... but most elves are based from tolkien's work or have their forumlar taken from there... I don't know if this is true in DnD'verse but there's enough simularities to presume some was inspired by it. And there are a few hints in Tolkien's work that Elves are bisexual by nature. depending how you read his work, as allot of it is heavy duty. And since people interpret Tolkien's work in different manners elves appear differently in different stories. and there are many books with elves in that again drop hints that elves aren't necisserily all straight, that joint sex couples are acceptable. and it could be this that has increased elven feminity and gender cofusion. Which probably in a society where men look like women and women look like men is probably quite useful. no longer do they have to face embarrisment when they have to ask "... are you a girl or a boy?" because they'd still like them reguardless. which sort of reminds me of pratchett's dwarfs...
But in OotS'verse though it carries fantasy elements i'm not sure which ones it embraces and which one it ignores. Whether the giant has read and agrees with the whole "elves are bi" debate which has floated around the internet I do not know. whether it matters, I don't know. I wouldn't care if V was bi, or gay, or whatever. in modern day lots of comics are bringing in gay characters to be hip and happening. I imagin if Rich decided for two male parents it's probably something planned, and something he thought up along the pratchett drawrf line.... two people meet, fall in love, and then realise they're both male :P
we also don't know how the world thinks about this sort of thing... I said most fantasy are based off middel ages. but people wern't actually punished for practicing sodomy until about the late 1600 because there was no real 'law', and those who did before hand people didn't care about because there wasn't a religiouse taboo over it or they practiced in secret.
But then again I don't think it really applies because each world is different along with each race when it comes to gender and sex rules. and the possibility of V being gay is very likely. because lets face it. His mate is definetly male.

[Z-dan]

yay, a pixie that knows what they're talking about :smallbiggrin:

From reading commentaries in the books I know that Rich had a set gender for V right in the beginning, and seeings as he's always had a square body figure and is referred to as V-man by Roy early on, he always was and always will be male to me. I only considered the possibility of he being a she when one of my friends was certain he was female... When Rich noticed all these gender discussions on the forums, he naturally incoporated it into the comic as a running gag.
Also,

Good observation about the shoulders (at least it looks convincing). Still, even though V was supposed to be a guy from the start, he lost that part of his identity long time ago.
replace the V with Z and that pretty much sums me up :smalltongue: in fact keep the V, my surname begins with V...

So yeah...I agree that once the giant decided to make it a running gag, then V's gender will be whatever the hell we want it to be. Same goes for V's mate, and I'm betting that because everyone is so cemented in their views then the giant may well reveal his gender- if only to see all the little arguments spark up with people saying 'that PROVES he's a she!' or 'that PROVES he's gay!'

As a final note, to the guy that criticised the OP's writing due to punctuation (apologies if I'm taking it too seriously, but it bugs me slightly) but you may have noticed I'm not the clearest writer on the forum... yet I'm just starting a novel and personally I think a lot more when I'm writing properly rather than writing on a forum... like i say, sorry if i'm taking things too seriously but it bugs me

[Optimystik]

I'll reiterate the three possibilities I devised in another thread:

1) Both V and his partner are male.
2) Either V, his partner, or both are drawn differently from every other elf we've seen so far (that includes when not in robes or armor.)
3) V's partner is wearing armor that conceals her shape. (Going by the current OotS style, that would make it light or medium at best).

(2) would be a bit of a copout, but the most surefire way for Rich to maintain the ambiguity joke. If he is so inclined, that is.

[CaptainIreland]

And there are a few hints in Tolkien's work that Elves are bisexual by nature. depending how you read his work, as allot of it is heavy duty.

....what the heck are you talking about? I have serious doubts about everything you say now.

[Optimystik]

....what the heck are you talking about? I have serious doubts about everything you say now.

Well Arwen and Galadriel know each other really well, if you catch my drift. Wink wink.


....




brb need to write fanfic

[hamishspence]

Arwen is Galadriel's granddaughter.

[Sunday]

Well Arwen and Galadriel know each other really well, if you catch my drift. Wink wink.



actually I believe it pops up in the Silmarion (sp) I heard this debate on a seriously hard core LOTR forum (they will skin you and eat you alive for every fault without backed up debateable evidence.(which all can be found on the websites database, with quotes from the book ect ect) I kid you not) and also my friend who was reading the book confirmed this for me. curiouse I bought the book and started reading... and then died of BOREDOM.

Though I'm sure Tolkien wasn't the only one who had it... lets see.... Ian Irvine's elf like creatures screwed anything that moved, so they came across as bi... definetly at some points. (they lived for centuries and were tall and good looking. call them what you like but i call them ELVES)

Raymond Fiest had a love of male characters... and there was some sexual induendo suggested with his elves that I recall... I thought the elf queen's son was gay in it until he apparently found his lost love from over the sea. but i'm sure with all those muscly manly men men someone will finally come out the closet.

the space elves from the seven sun saga. they defintly loved sex, and sexing up everyone in their race. oh yus.

hm hm hm... I need more books with elves in them *rummages through the piles* *finds Silmarillion* .... Yeaaaaah. I think I'll wait until my lotr obssed friend comes online and ask her which part of the book to look in before trying that one.


....what the heck are you talking about? I have serious doubts about everything you say now.

tell ya what darling. I'll go quote fishing and back up what I say with evidence, kay? Lucky for you I know some hard core LOTR nerds.

[Sholos]

uh.... I don't know about in DnD... but most elves are based from tolkien's work or have their forumlar taken from there... I don't know if this is true in DnD'verse but there's enough simularities to presume some was inspired by it. And there are a few hints in Tolkien's work that Elves are bisexual by nature. depending how you read his work, as allot of it is heavy duty.
I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to say here, other than to claim that Tolkien elves were all bisexual. I'd like to see some specific passages that this theory is based on, because I have never heard anyone claim this before.


And since people interpret Tolkien's work in different manners elves appear differently in different stories. and there are many books with elves in that again drop hints that elves aren't necisserily all straight, that joint sex couples are acceptable. and it could be this that has increased elven feminity and gender cofusion.
I get tired of people assuming that just because humans can't tell the difference between male and female elves that that means elves are "feminine". Only by human standards does that definition work, and it's pretty silly to apply human standards to a non-human being, don't you think?

Also, the fact that "there are many book with elves ... that drop hints that elves aren't necisserily [sic] all straight" doesn't mean squat here. These are Rich's elves, based (presumably) off D&D's standard elves. And there is nothing in D&D that says elves are bisexual by nature. So until we get solid evidence to the contrary, I suggest we run with what we know (or have very good reason to believe) to be true, rather than what we want (but have no evidence to support) to be true.


Which probably in a society where men look like women and women look like men is probably quite useful. no longer do they have to face embarrisment when they have to ask "... are you a girl or a boy?" because they'd still like them reguardless. which sort of reminds me of pratchett's dwarfs...
Just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean they're aren't clear markers to other elves. After all, can you tell the difference between a male and female anole? I'm betting not (unless you happen to be an expert on lizards), but they certainly don't seem to have any problems.

As to Pratchett's dwarves (by the way, proper nouns are capitalized in English), it's not so much that they are embarrassed by the topic of sex and gender, it's that they see it as only mildly important (to the degree that it produces more dwarves). I believe that Pratchett dwarves start out loving each other, and then if they find out they're the opposite sex, get married. If they're the same, then they just continue on with their lives as before. Nothing says you can't have a loving relationship with a member of the same sex.


But in OotS'verse though it carries fantasy elements i'm not sure which ones it embraces and which one it ignores. Whether the giant has read and agrees with the whole "elves are bi" debate which has floated around the internet I do not know. whether it matters, I don't know. I wouldn't care if V was bi, or gay, or whatever. in modern day lots of comics are bringing in gay characters to be hip and happening. I imagin if Rich decided for two male parents it's probably something planned, and something he thought up along the pratchett drawrf line.... two people meet, fall in love, and then realise they're both male :P
I think that if that happened to two Pratchett dwarves, they would simply continue their relationship from before, and not actually get married. Certainly they wouldn't have any children.

As to "fantasy elements", I'm pretty sure that wildly gay elves are a new thing. I will agree that it seems like a lot of people are "revealing" that various characters are gay, or introducing new, gay characters, simply for the sake of being able to say, "Look at me! I've got a gay character in my comic!" I would be very disappointed if any of the comics I read did that. I feel that if you're going to go exploring sexuality, it better damn well be done in a mature fashion, not to fit in with mainstream culture.


we also don't know how the world thinks about this sort of thing... I said most fantasy are based off middel ages. but people wern't actually punished for practicing sodomy until about the late 1600 because there was no real 'law', and those who did before hand people didn't care about because there wasn't a religiouse taboo over it or they practiced in secret.
But then again I don't think it really applies because each world is different along with each race when it comes to gender and sex rules. and the possibility of V being gay is very likely. because lets face it. His mate is definetly male.

Yes, but people weren't out and out gay, either. Let's face it, being able to say, "I'm gay," and not face a ton of prejudice and discrimination is definitely a very new thing. Even today you still don't get off scot free. So, if the D&D world is to relate even moderately to the middle ages, you should expect to see a strong, public antipathy towards homosexuality. Since we've been given no reason to think otherwise, standard operating procedure says to assume the default.

As to you're final comment, I disagree, as to plenty of other forumites. V's mate could easily be either male or female. It's seems very common in Rich's world for men to have short hair, to the point where I can't actually recall any male characters having long hair. So that right there is a pointer to female. V's mate is supposed to be just as ambiguous as V.

TLDR: V's gender is ambiguous, and we're not going to be told what it is. So, pick a side, and stop arguing.

On a final note, please, please use some better typing etiquette. Reading your posts is just this side of painful, which makes it very hard to take you seriously at the same time it makes you hard to understand. Try breaking up your posts into paragraphs, and definitely proofread them before you post. This isn't a chatroom, so there's no need to speed-post. Also, proper grammar makes you look more intelligent. Bad grammar makes you look stupid. Now, I won't speak for you on which you want to appear as, but that's how people's perception of you will be colored.
______________________________________


As a final note, to the guy that criticised the OP's writing due to punctuation (apologies if I'm taking it too seriously, but it bugs me slightly) but you may have noticed I'm not the clearest writer on the forum... yet I'm just starting a novel and personally I think a lot more when I'm writing properly rather than writing on a forum... like i say, sorry if i'm taking things too seriously but it bugs me

Writing on a forum is no excuse not to write properly. Anything less means you think less of the people on the forum than you do of people reading anything you do write properly.

[Optimystik]

Raymond Fiest had a love of male characters... and there was some sexual induendo suggested with his elves that I recall... I thought the elf queen's son was gay in it until he apparently found his lost love from over the sea. but i'm sure with all those muscly manly men men someone will finally come out the closet.

You have no idea how badly I wanted Pug (Magician: series protagonist) to be gay. There he was with his very close and very platonic childhood friend, two paragraphs away from experimenting... then taken away and locked into a sexually repressive monastery for another few years... then poof! Standard fantasy hetero romance shoehorned in quite literally out of nowhere. Sigh.


...I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought...

[LurkerInPlayground]

..... no. just no. in all likely hood when Rick got 50 comics into this he had already decided on the factors of each of the characters. It would have been set in stone. a writer does not change a characters gender just to spite fans. because he will know whatever gender he keeps it at will always shock and delight fans when it is relieved. what would be the point? He might give the character more girlier or more masculine moments. But that character will always, always be the same gender throughout the story. If Rick decided V was a girl when he started OotS then V is still a girl now. if he diced V was a man at the beginning of the strip V is still a man. V does not get plastic surgery every other strip just to spite fans.
it is more pleasing to a write to know something for definet about a character that no one else knows then to keep changing it just to be a jerk.
I don't think you know Rich very well . . .

Keep in mind that this is a guy who regularly breaks D&D rules because he knows that it infuriates the people who like to stat out his characters because he gets lulz out of it.

[The Neoclassic]

V's gender is ambiguous, and we're not going to be told what it is. So, pick a side, and stop arguing.

Why? We're enjoying ourselves in this discussion, I think. Of course we won't be told what it is, or ever come to a consensus! That said, I've been having fun with the whole thing and I find many of the arguments that people bring up to be quite intriguing.


On a final note, please, please use some better typing etiquette. Reading your posts is just this side of painful, which makes it very hard to take you seriously at the same time it makes you hard to understand. Try breaking up your posts into paragraphs, and definitely proofread them before you post. This isn't a chatroom, so there's no need to speed-post. Also, proper grammar makes you look more intelligent. Bad grammar makes you look stupid. Now, I won't speak for you on which you want to appear as, but that's how people's perception of you will be colored.
______________________________________



Writing on a forum is no excuse not to write properly. Anything less means you think less of the people on the forum than you do of people reading anything you do write properly.


I'm a dislexsic comic writer/artist who is doing a creative writing with english literature course at univercity (yes I got a funny look from my univercity interviewer when I applied)
and usually I spend allot of time editing and rereading my work. usually I have a spellcheck on my firefox but i'm forced into using my laptop this week which doesn't have one. and without it on I don't believe in checking my spelling in forums of all places. (unless they're rp forums i guess..)

I'm as pissy about grammar as anyone (trust me- try misusing a semicolon in front of me and watch what happens), but if the OP already said they suffered from dyslexia, I don't think such a rant is really going to be helpful.

[Sunday]

after some searching on the interwebs. I can see why people might of thought his elves were bi... even though Tolkien was catholic and any induendo was purely accidentle on his part. little infor source here (http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_***.htm). course having sex = marriage is a bit of a downer. but you can't marry the same sex, and if sex with someone is fun before you have kids... and I can see where peoples minds went with that one. (specially girls) *throws Silmarion back into book pile to never be touched again*


On a final note, please, please use some better typing etiquette. Reading your posts is just this side of painful, which makes it very hard to take you seriously at the same time it makes you hard to understand. Try breaking up your posts into paragraphs, and definitely proofread them before you post. This isn't a chatroom, so there's no need to speed-post. Also, proper grammar makes you look more intelligent. Bad grammar makes you look stupid. Now, I won't speak for you on which you want to appear as, but that's how people's perception of you will be colored.

first: proper grammar is not taught in english schools at all. So any poor grammar skills on my part is my governments fault. (somewhat ironic.... but yet appropriate with reflection on the english language...)
2nd: Dislexsic... I used to be allot worse. The very memory makes me cringe.


I don't think you know Rich very well . . .

Keep in mind that this is a guy who regularly breaks D&D rules because he knows that it infuriates the people who like to stat out his characters because he gets lulz out of it.

but I do know writers, and comic writers and I also write. I'm not very good when it comes to DnD knowledge, but I know a thing or two about characterisasion and writing.


I don't think gay elves is that new... I remember having a simillar debate about elves (just in general) the other week over at YAFGC and it popped up there as well. Though I don't know where someone has seen other gay elves... I've only seen a few new gay characters around, and only one of them was an elf... half elf really... unless you count Wolf... and his not gay... just sexually active.


...... when did this turn into a debate about gayness? I thought this was a topic on gender. gender!!!

[hamishspence]

not in the Silmarillion (Arwen isn't even mentioned by name and Aragorn only gets a passing mention in the last few pages)

The appendicies to LOTR mention her mother being captured by the orcs and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen's brothers, but apart from that, don't think so.

Unfinished Tales does give Galadriel some more details (including an alternate backstory) but doesn't mention Arwen.

(link didn't work)

Maybe in the massive Christopher Tolkien collection?

[Sholos]

Why? We're enjoying ourselves in this discussion, I think. Of course we won't be told what it is, or ever come to a consensus! That said, I've been having fun with the whole thing and I find many of the arguments that people bring up to be quite intriguing.
It's more the fact that there are so many threads about it. If it's really important, make one thread, and bring up new theories inside that one thread. There's no need for everyone with two cents to throw in to start a new thread.


I'm as pissy about grammar as anyone (trust me- try misusing a semicolon in front of me and watch what happens), but if the OP already said they suffered from dyslexia, I don't think such a rant is really going to be helpful.
Dyslexia doesn't give a grammar-free card. It just means you have to be more vigilant. My sister is dyslexic when it comes to numbers. Guess what? All that means is that she has to be extra careful when doing math, or writing down phone numbers, or anything else to do with numbers. Yes, it means the occasional slip-up can be overlooked, but poor formatting and consistent mistakes are more a result of not caring enough.

[Sunday]

Dyslexia doesn't give a grammar-free card. It just means you have to be more vigilant. My sister is dyslexic when it comes to numbers. Guess what? All that means is that she has to be extra careful when doing math, or writing down phone numbers, or anything else to do with numbers. Yes, it means the occasional slip-up can be overlooked, but poor formatting and consistent mistakes are more a result of not caring enough.

no, no it doesn't. But when Grammar is not taught or spoken of or even approached in schools. it's hard for a Dyslexsic student to pick it up and carry it out correctly. Grammer is hidden away in a dark closet which is never opened here in the uk.

Now I don't know what you were taught in school. But as far as my school was conserned as long as you used capital letters and false stops you were using grammar.

@ hamishspence: It seems to be staring out the last three letters before the html at the end which is ***. which is apprently censored... okay. First three letters of about.

[The Neoclassic]

It's more the fact that there are so many threads about it. If it's really important, make one thread, and bring up new theories inside that one thread. There's no need for everyone with two cents to throw in to start a new thread.

You said we should stop arguing, not consolidate. I'm all for it being in just one thread.


Dyslexia doesn't give a grammar-free card. It just means you have to be more vigilant. My sister is dyslexic when it comes to numbers. Guess what? All that means is that she has to be extra careful when doing math, or writing down phone numbers, or anything else to do with numbers. Yes, it means the occasional slip-up can be overlooked, but poor formatting and consistent mistakes are more a result of not caring enough.

Still not rant-worthy. Honestly, it was annoying, but not unreadable. And usually if I can't stand how people are writing (particularly on a topic I think is silly anyway), I just don't respond. Each to their own, I suppose.

[Sholos]

but I do know writers, and comic writers and I also write. I'm not very good when it comes to DnD knowledge, but I know a thing or two about characterisasion and writing.

And....? What was your point. "Writers", "comic writers" and yourself are not Rich. It's been established that Rich enjoys messing with the fans at times, and that V's gender-ambiguity is at this point deliberate. So I can't see why you have trouble acknowledging the possibility that Rich specifically has V act in both masculine and feminine manners.


I don't think gay elves is that new... I remember having a simillar debate about elves (just in general) the other week over at YAFGC and it popped up there as well. Though I don't know where someone has seen other gay elves... I've only seen a few new gay characters around, and only one of them was an elf... half elf really... unless you count Wolf... and his not gay... just sexually active.

"The other week" is not old. Heck, last year doesn't make this topic old. Not when we're referencing literature from the 30s-40s. Now, if we were talking about the "pirate vs. ninja" debate, then something from last year might (might) be old. But this is definitely new.


...... when did this turn into a debate about gayness? I thought this was a topic on gender. gender!!!

When people started insisting that both V and V's mate are male.


no, no it doesn't. But when Grammar is not taught or spoken of or even approached in schools. it's hard for a Dyslexsic student to pick it up and carry it out correctly. Grammer is hidden away in a dark closet which is never opened here in the uk.

That's a shame. Still, that's what the Internet is for. You've already improved immensely in your last two posts.


Now I don't know what you were taught in school. But as far as my school was conserned as long as you used capital letters and false stops you were using grammar.

Really the biggest thing I've noticed is that you don't use commas (instead using periods, which really breaks up the flow of a sentence) and that you don't exactly use capital letters correctly. Unless UK English grammar is that different from American. American English capitalizes the first word of each sentence and proper nouns, as well as the first word in a direct quote. There's some other things, too (as far as capitalization rules), but those are the big ones.


@ hamishspence: It seems to be staring out the last three letters before the html at the end which is ***. which is apprently censored... okay. First three letters of about.

That worked. Why is that censored? That makes no sense to me.

[hamishspence]

because its a slang word for another word that means "native" maybe?

Does it censor aborigine?
apparently not.

[Sunday]

When people started insisting that both V and V's mate are male.

blek. say what you will about V. his mate is definetly male. All other elvish chicks, or elf like chicks that we have seen are noticably female. and he has no exscuse to be ambigouse, as his not wearing loose fitting clothing like V.
and I still maintain the figure arguement for V. to prove he is male...


Really the biggest thing I've noticed is that you don't use commas (instead using periods, which really breaks up the flow of a sentence) and that you don't exactly use capital letters correctly. Unless UK English grammar is that different from American. American English capitalizes the first word of each sentence and proper nouns, as well as the first word in a direct quote. There's some other things, too (as far as capitalization rules), but those are the big ones.

I have no idea how to use commas correctly. I just put them were it seems necissary to sentance flow. Have never been taught how to use them propally either. So I just wing it. I don't think there is any difference in english and american gramma, except that gramma hasn't been taught in england for over a decade.

And I admit my capital letters are a bit retarded... I never used to bother with them on computers because I type incredibly fast and when you're trying to move your fingers fast and press the shift key it just elads to horrible, horrible typos. But in more recent years I've tried to use them more, just now and then I forget and they dissapear for a little bit before I remember to use them again.

[Desouulm]

Could elves in Rich's world simply be like some african bullfrogs we know on earth? Or velocoraptors in Jurassic Park? :smalltongue:

Which is to say, they can change gender when needed.

EDIT: ...and now now I see a thread that already has this theory in it. Serendipity.

I honestly don't think The Giant has decided in concrete what V's sex is, despite what we may conclude from the art. Why should he, unless it's been set in the plot somehow? V's sexual ambiguity is as much, if not a greater, part of "hiers" character than perhaps any gendral role we would put "hierm" in.

But anyway. That's my view.



Also, it's really facinating to see Sunday's posts improve in mere hours. Nice work.

[Sholos]

blek. say what you will about V. his mate is definetly male. All other elvish chicks, or elf like chicks that we have seen are noticably female. and he has no exscuse to be ambigouse, as his not wearing loose fitting clothing like V.
and I still maintain the figure arguement for V. to prove he is male...

I have no idea how to use commas correctly. I just put them were it seems necissary to sentance flow. Have never been taught how to use them propally either. So I just wing it. I don't think there is any difference in english and american gramma, except that gramma hasn't been taught in england for over a decade.

Basic rule of thumb for commas is that if you were to pause when saying a sentence out loud, there's probably a comma there. There's some other rules as well, but that's a decent start. As for spelling, I recommend you get a spell checker add-on if your browser doesn't have one, or type your posts in Word beforehand. Then you won't get things like "sentance" (sentence), "necissary" (necessary), and "propally" (properly). Also, pay attention to others' posts to look for good grammar. Read stuff out loud. If it sounds weird, there's probably (though not necessarily) something wrong with it.


And I admit my capital letters are a bit retarded... I never used to bother with them on computers because I type incredibly fast and when you're trying to move your fingers fast and press the shift key it just elads to horrible, horrible typos. But in more recent years I've tried to use them more, just now and then I forget and they dissapear for a little bit before I remember to use them again.

Well, then I'd suggest slowing your typing down a bit. Fast typing doesn't mean much if you have to constantly go back and fix stuff, which you should if you make mistakes. Typing consistently well is better than typing quickly with lots of mistakes.

[Sunday]

Could elves in Rich's world simply be like some african bullfrogs we know on earth? Or velocoraptors in Jurassic Park? :smalltongue:

Which is to say, they can change gender when needed.

EDIT: ...and now now I see a thread that already has this theory in it. Serendipity.

I honestly don't think The Giant has decided in concrete what V's sex is, despite what we may conclude from the art. Why should he, unless it's been set in the plot somehow? V's sexual ambiguity is as much, if not a greater, part of "hiers" character than perhaps any gendral role we would put "hierm" in.

But anyway. That's my view.



Also, it's really facinating to see Sunday's posts improve in mere hours. Nice work.

I find the frog theory funny ^^ completely ridculouse but funny.

And the Giant has to reveal V.'s sex one day...

[Kish]

And the Giant has to reveal V.'s sex one day...
If he did have to--and especially now that I see Vaarsuvius' mate, he certainly doesn't have to--why would he have to make Vaarsuvius (or Vaarsuvius' mate) male, regardless?

Edit: Also, hold on a sec. You're arguing that men are universally drawn with square shoulders whether or not they're stick figures?

[pearl jam]

Appealing to Tolkienien elves as a justification for anything in D&D is a bit misguided, in my opinion, for various reasons.

In D&D elves are typically shorter than people and have penalties to Con.

Tolkienien elves are taller than all but the tallest of men, and likewise their bodies endure more injury and heal more quickly than all but the most exceptional men as well. Most, if not all, elves in Tolkien's works should have postive stat modifiers on every stat in D&D.

As for the question of sexuality, I think it highly unlikely that it was the author's intent that people think of elves in that world as being inherently bisexual.

[Greg]

As a final note, to the guy that criticised the OP's writing due to punctuation (apologies if I'm taking it too seriously, but it bugs me slightly) but you may have noticed I'm not the clearest writer on the forum... yet I'm just starting a novel and personally I think a lot more when I'm writing properly rather than writing on a forum... like i say, sorry if i'm taking things too seriously but it bugs me
Hey - I struggled to read it. The volume of words with no punctuation was a problem for me.

As for Tolkien... Legolas and Gimli were a couple, right? In the appendices?

[Optimystik]

Here's the bottom line: the shoulders, the eyes, the ponytail, none of it is PROOF of anything. Believe what you like.

And really, I said in another thread that I thought the joke was going on too long, but then I realized something: if V's gender can still spawn such heatedly debated threads, then clearly the community isn't really tired of the topic yet.

V's gender will probably be revealed when we all stop caring about it. Schrodinger's Chromosome?

[DanielX]

Nothing to do with V's gender, but...

Tolkien was, by modern standards at least, a conservative Catholic, and his religious beliefs kind of show in his work (even if he doesn't hit you over the head with them the way his friend/rival C.S. Lewis did). He also had a fairy-tale-ish view of romance (quite justified in his case - the whole tale of Beren & Luthien could have originated as a fantasized version of his relationship with his wife Edith).

Tolkien's elves are, if anything, much more chaste than humans - not that he included much lust for anyone. The only characters to exhibit anything that might be considered lustful are Ents! (Because the Entwives have been away for awhile). With Sam as a distant second as regards Rosie Cotton. Nothing that might construe a homosexual relationship either, though Frodo/Sam and Legolas/Gimli are both, to use a Trope, "heterosexual life partners".

Dwarves are, if anything, even more conservative - they can only fall in love *once* (and some never do). When Gimli fell for Galadriel, he was left incapable of being interested in anyone else (even elves occasionally have widows and widowers who remarry - Finwe being the most notable one), which is very sad for Gimli since Galadriel has been more-or-less happily married for the past two ages in LOTR...

And yes, Galadriel and Celeborn had a daughter named Celebrian. She married Elrond and had Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir, before being kidnapped and seriously injured by orcs (some choose to interpret this as including rape, but Tolkien provides absolutely no evidence whatsoever - even his orcs aren't depicted as being especially sexually depraved... something the movie's "orcs come out of holes" business may actually justify!), then rescued and chose to leave Middle Earth.

[Ramidel]

For the record, Tolkien's elves have precious little to do with D&D and D&D-derived elves. D&D-esque elves are the Elves usually referred to as "Tolkienesque" and they're the source usually ripped off for such beings as Midkemian/Inheritance Cycle/foo elves. Tolkien elves aren't, for instance, usually small and slender, they're big humanoids wielding heavy swords.

The only always-bisexual elves I can think of are the Elfquest elves. I haven't read the Inheritance Cycle so I can't comment on Paolini beyond the TVTropes snippets.

Sunday: If you can't use even the most basic grammar and spellchecking, then don't post on a forum until you can. Simple.

[The Neoclassic]

Sunday: If you can't use even the most basic grammar and spellchecking, then don't post on a forum until you can. Simple.

You think that issue hasn't already been beaten to death? Frankly, if you guys can't handle people with bad spelling or grammar, then don't go on the internet. :smallwink:


Here's the bottom line: the shoulders, the eyes, the ponytail, none of it is PROOF of anything. Believe what you like.

Oh, entirely true. It may suggest something, but it is no proof at all. The ponytail in particular says absolutely nothing; it's equally possible it signifies a male, a female, or an intersex or androgynous individual.


And really, I said in another thread that I thought the joke was going on too long, but then I realized something: if V's gender can still spawn such heatedly debated threads, then clearly the community isn't really tired of the topic yet.

Yup, I entirely agree. I am tired of the joke too, but debating it can still be mildly entertaining, and I know that I have absolutely no control over when or if the Giant clears things up, and if he does, what the results will be. I tend to think that he'll never actually clarify the gender of V or V's mate, so I look at them and their kids as it seems most likely to me, glance at theories about why people think differently, and don't really flip out over it- or over people caring about it more than I do.

[Zelthax]

One cannot argue that "the shoulders tell all" and then refute the argument of eye height. They both deal with how the comic is drawn, and how the comic is drawn is subject to the author's whim. Completely.

One cannot compare the sexuality and femininity of the elven race with that of other works of fiction. Rich has created his own world.

One cannot take a gender-neutral characteristic and then claim that they point towards one gender. Men and women both can wear ponytails.

One cannot definitively say what V's gender is, simply because the author has explicitly left the gender ambiguous, and will never reveal his/her sex. He has gone to near-painstaking lengths to keep the fans confused, so far as to having the children say "Parent" and "Other Parent."

One cannot definitively say what V's sexuality is, because one cannot know what V's gender is.

One cannot assume parallels to actual historical timeframes, because this is a work of fiction set in a world with rules of physics, battle, etc. are based on a game.

Thus, no part of Sunday's proof holds water. The basic assumptions used to create the argument just can't be assumed.

Opinions, on the other hand, are completely and totally subject to debate. But Forum go-ers must be careful not to present opinion as fact, unless there is actual evidence to back it up.

And also, @OP:
You are a writer. We understand, and there are some things the average layman won't understand about character development and such unless one actually writes as well.
however
You defense can't just be: "I'm a writer, and I know these things."

Finally, yes, this is the internet. But this is an intelligible forum. Please make some effort to create cohesive statements. I'd genuinely like to read and discuss (provided I have time, of course!), but I'm likely to skip over a wall of text, and more so if the wall is lacking grammar.

[The Neoclassic]

One cannot argue that "the shoulders tell all" and then refute the argument of eye height. They both deal with how the comic is drawn, and how the comic is drawn is subject to the author's whim. Completely.

One cannot compare the sexuality and femininity of the elven race with that of other works of fiction. Rich has created his own world.

One cannot take a gender-neutral characteristic and then claim that they point towards one gender. Men and women both can wear ponytails.

One cannot definitively say what V's gender is, simply because the author has explicitly left the gender ambiguous, and will never reveal his/her sex. He has gone to near-painstaking lengths to keep the fans confused, so far as to having the children say "Parent" and "Other Parent."

One cannot definitively say what V's sexuality is, because one cannot know what V's gender is.

One cannot assume parallels to actual historical timeframes, because this is a work of fiction set in a world with rules of physics, battle, etc. are based on a game.

Thus, no part of Sunday's proof holds water. The basic assumptions used to create the argument just can't be assumed.

Opinions, on the other hand, are completely and totally subject to debate. But Forum go-ers must be careful not to present opinion as fact, unless there is actual evidence to back it up.

And also, @OP:
You are a writer. We understand, and there are some things the average layman won't understand about character development and such unless one actually writes as well.
however
You defense can't just be: "I'm a writer, and I know these things."

Finally, yes, this is the internet. But this is an intelligible forum. Please make some effort to create cohesive statements. I'd genuinely like to read and discuss (provided I have time, of course!), but I'm likely to skip over a wall of text, and more so if the wall is lacking grammar.

Well said. Calm and to the point. I tend to agree with most of what was said, and the way it was said was neither whiney nor accusatory. I think you sum up pretty much all of the issues with the opening post in a polite and productive way. *Stamp of Approval*

[CaptainIreland]

after some searching on the interwebs. I can see why people might of thought his elves were bi... even though Tolkien was catholic and any induendo was purely accidentle on his part. little infor source here (http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_***.htm). course having sex = marriage is a bit of a downer. but you can't marry the same sex, and if sex with someone is fun before you have kids... and I can see where peoples minds went with that one. (specially girls) *throws Silmarion back into book pile to never be touched again*

So what I'm seeing is that you have no justification for claiming that Tolkien's works make elves out to be bisexual, and are only going by what female Tolkien fans on the internet say?

Nice. Glad we cleared that up.

I'm off to reread the Silmarillion, which I think I understand why you don't "get it."

[Felixaar]

the shouldiers never lie.

I believe this statement would be better attributed to a different body part (or lack thereof) which I severely doubt we will ever see in the oots comic.

The idea that both Parents are male, since I highly doubt modern IBF technology exists anywhere near Ivyleaf Village, is also incorrect. Although, it is a possibility that V and mate's children are adopted, but I find this unlikely since though it has never been explicitly stated otherwise, the general tone of conversation has not gone this way.

I also find it unlikely that Elven law allows for same sex couples to be wed, or if so for them to adopt children.

In short, I believe your proposition to be inconclusive. Your result is not necessarily incorrect, but the path you took to it is.

Toodle-pip!

-Felix

[Optimystik]

The idea that both Parents are male, since I highly doubt modern IBF technology exists anywhere near Ivyleaf Village, is also incorrect. Although, it is a possibility that V and mate's children are adopted, but I find this unlikely since though it has never been explicitly stated otherwise, the general tone of conversation has not gone this way.

This idea stems from the fact that the children do not bear any resemblance to V or his mate. The idea that they are tan 4th edition elves has been tossed around and even makes sense, but given that his kids are 20 years old they would have been born while the comic was still 3rd edition at the latest. Yet Rule of Funny/Cool may trump that logic.


I also find it unlikely that Elven law allows for same sex couples to be wed, or if so for them to adopt children.

Shush. You have no evidence to support that statement. None of the sourcebooks address male same-sex relationships, and very few have anything to say about "elven law." More to the point, we have no knowledge of how OotS elves treat those topics.


In short, I believe your proposition to be inconclusive. Your result is not necessarily incorrect, but the path you took to it is.

Toodle-pip!

-Felix

This, I agree with. (The "shoulder-height" proof.)

[Sunday]

Reading over the strip again. I want to make two points about peoples debates about gayness in OotS.

first: V never calls his mate husband or wife. I have long thought on this. One could argue that Rich has done this just to frustrate the fanbase more. Or Rich could have done this because V isen't married, he just has a long commited partner.

second: i've gotten up to strip 413 and there has been two gay moments in the strip. during the rescue of Roy's sister. One was when Nale was caught with whats-her-face in male form by V. and V. didn't raise an eyebrow beyond "tuck your shirt in and neaten yourself out for miss starshine". and second when Elan was in prison and tried to use his illusions on the guard and one of the guards additted to being gay.

So yeah, I don't think people should over look V being in a same couple relasionship. Even without relating to other text's we've already seen how gayness in the comic, and that by people's reactions from the two events it's not frowned down upon.

And will people please stop going on about my spelling and grammar? Honestly, I've gotten enough harassment from it over the years that I do not need it coming from a forum where good spelling and grammar are optional. By gods, it just reminds me why I don't bother to post on these damn things. when people would rather complain about how your write rather than your critical commentry.

[Ramidel]

Reading over the strip again. I want to make two points about peoples debates about gayness in OotS.

first: V never calls his mate husband or wife. I have long thought on this. One could argue that Rich has done this just to frustrate the fanbase more. Or Rich could have done this because V isen't married, he just has a long commited partner.

Except that Rich mentions them having a wedding.


And will people please stop going on about my spelling and grammar? Honestly, I've gotten enough harassment from it over the years that I do not need it coming from a forum where good spelling and grammar are optional. By gods, it just reminds me why I don't bother to post on these damn things.

You just posted, you realize.

[Sunday]

Except that Rich mentions them having a wedding.

yes forgot that detail... but my point is still valid. We do not know what elvish marriage entails in this universe.


You just posted, you realize.

thank you for pointing out me contridicting myself. I will now go forth ignoring this forum for anouther matter of months until something of new debatable interest occures that I feel is worthy of my opineon. because this one is apparently infested with grammar nazi's at this period of time. :smallmad:

[The Neoclassic]

Sunday, just ignore them- your grammar was seriously improving too (and then fell back to sloppy on your last post)! If people are whining at you, ignore them (you can just not read their posts or even use the ignore user function). I know it's hard, but, really, there are always going to be annoying people on forums. It's not worth leaving over two or three of them.


You have no evidence to support that statement. None of the sourcebooks address male same-sex relationships, and very few have anything to say about "elven law." More to the point, we have no knowledge of how OotS elves treat those topics.

Precisely. All we know about elven relationships in the comic is that V and his mate took a long time to acknowledge their feelings for each other, which could have even just been a matter of both of them being shy rather than any reflection on their sexual preference, gender, or elven culture.

[Scarlet Knight]

[QUOTE=Greg;As for Tolkien... Legolas and Gimli were a couple, right? In the appendices?[/QUOTE]

Ewwww! I imagine the following exchanges in LOTR ( ala Airplane)

Legolas: "So, Gimli. Do you like gladiator stories?"
Aragon: " Ok, we'd better go now."
Legolas: "Nonsense, we have plenty of time. Gimli. Have you ever seen a grown elf naked?"
Aragon: " Really, we'd better go now."
Legolas: "So, Gimli. Have you ever been in a Mordor prison?"
Aragon: " The orcs are getting ahead of us!"
Legolas: "Look! Shadowfax is a boy horse!"

[Silencer]

to hide the characters gender I used their hair to cover up a large portion of the chest to hide away any hints of their sexuality, but I still shaded the chest area in the same way their gender would be shaded. Because at the end of the day, they are still that gender. And you know how my damn fans figured out whether it was a girl or a friggen boy? By seeing that I had given them girly shouldiers.

So you expect The Giant to go down as easily as you did? How quaint.

[Gez]

In one of the earliest comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html), one which predates the whole "is he a girl or is she a boy" nonsense, one which therefore wasn't built with the whole "V's gender is ambiguous and nobody knows what it is" angle in mind, Roy calls him "V-man".

[nleseul]

In one of the earliest comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html), one which predates the whole "is he a girl or is she a boy" nonsense, one which therefore wasn't built with the whole "V's gender is ambiguous and nobody knows what it is" angle in mind, Roy calls him "V-man".

Which proves nothing more than that Roy perceives Vaarsuvius as male.

Later on, Nale calls zir an "elf chick."

[Sholos]

Which proves nothing more than that Roy perceives Vaarsuvius as male.

Later on, Nale calls zir an "elf chick."

You're missing the point. Roy calls V, "V-man" before V's gender was meant to be ambiguous. Nale calls V an "elf chick" after the joke started. Meaning that the evidence suggests that Rich probably intended for V to be male.

[nleseul]

You're missing the point. Roy calls V, "V-man" before V's gender was meant to be ambiguous. Nale calls V an "elf chick" after the joke started. Meaning that the evidence suggests that Rich probably intended for V to be male.

Okay, so one reference that, maybe, suggests an intention to depict the character as male, followed by Goddess knows how many suggesting a much stronger intention to depict the character as ambiguously gendered.

In my world, at least, that evidence suggests that—regardless of what Rich originally intended when he was just writing this strip as a short-term joke—what he intends now is for the character's gender to be ambiguous.

And, anyway, do you really want to get into an argument about the validity of authorial intent in analyzing a text? Whatever Rich's intent may or may not be, the character's gender is ambiguous, based strictly on a reading of the text.

And it's puzzling to me why people feel such an intense need to categorize V into one gender or the other, and insist that Rich "has to" reveal the "truth" before the end of the comic. Why can't it just be irrelevant? Why does V's physiology even have to conform to a human sexual binary?

...Actually, I guess it's really not puzzling at all. And that's why I'm so happy with Rich's portrayal of V.

[Sholos]

Okay, so one reference that, maybe, suggests an intention to depict the character as male, followed by Goddess knows how many suggesting a much stronger intention to depict the character as ambiguously gendered.

In my world, at least, that evidence suggests that—regardless of what Rich originally intended when he was just writing this strip as a short-term joke—what he intends now is for the character's gender to be ambiguous.
Well, yes. That wasn't the point, though.


And, anyway, do you really want to get into an argument about the validity of authorial intent in analyzing a text? Whatever Rich's intent may or may not be, the character's gender is ambiguous, based strictly on a reading of the text.
I've never understood why authorial intent doesn't matter when it comes to analyzing a text. When the author says, "This is what it means," how do you refute that?


And it's puzzling to me why people feel such an intense need to categorize V into one gender or the other, and insist that Rich "has to" reveal the "truth" before the end of the comic. Why can't it just be irrelevant? Why does V's physiology even have to conform to a human sexual binary?

...Actually, I guess it's really not puzzling at all. And that's why I'm so happy with Rich's portrayal of V.
I've no idea. I really don't care about V's gender any more than you do.

[The Neoclassic]

Just to clarify:

Rich has stated that his initial intent was for V to be a man, but seeing the amusing confusion that V created amongst the fan base, quickly changed V's gender to "ambigious" and has no intention of ever giving us a definitive answer.

Unfortunately I don't remember where I saw the post from a while back that explained all that out, so no, I can't cite it. If anyone does know where that is from, please let us know.

[nleseul]

I've never understood why authorial intent doesn't matter when it comes to analyzing a text. When the author says, "This is what it means," how do you refute that?

Usually it involves sounding sort of silly, I think.

Well, that it doesn't matter at all is a pretty extreme position that I wouldn't personally take. I do consider the author's explicit goals to be pretty much the first and most fundamental thing you should look for in reading a text. It's just that they don't constitute the entirety of the text. It also matters what's in the text that the author didn't purposely put there, but ended up there due to the cultural or personal values of either the author or the audience.

e.g., H.P. Lovecraft didn't set out to write about white supremacy, but in any serious study of his work you're going to have to recognize his views on race and how they affected his writing.

Or, for a more pertinent example, suppose that Rich actually intended all along for Vaarsuvius to be clearly identifiable as male. But if a majority of readers still see the character as androgynous, and react to zir accordingly, then isn't there an argument that, for all practical purposes, the character is androgynous?

In fact, that seems to be pretty close to what actually happened, except that Rich was still early enough in writing that when enough readers were confused by V's gender, he could make the choice to adopt and give direct textual support to the androgynous interpretation.


I've no idea. I really don't care about V's gender any more than you do.

Actually, I do care quite a bit about V's lack of overt gender. :-P

[David Argall]

I've never understood why authorial intent doesn't matter when it comes to analyzing a text. When the author says, "This is what it means," how do you refute that?

With the evidence before you.

Now the author is in a privileged position with inside knowledge, but he is also mortal. That means he makes mistakes. So what he says he meant may not be what he said or meant. [In fact, it never is if we are picky enough about details.]
Now our writer has said that he never showed V as Good, only to be shown #11, which shows V as sickened, and thus of good alignment. He admitted that was the proper deduction to be drawn from the comic, but noted this did not mean V is still good.

A reasonable [if not necessarily correct] conclusion would be that our writer had meant for V to be neutral from the start, but had forgotten that the spell affected neutrals differently than goods or evils. A definite conclusion is that we can not automatically assume the author is correct in saying a part of the comic has X meaning.

And of course, the writer being mortal, we can't entirely assume the writer is honest in any declaration of meaning. Authors do lie. In our case, we have a desire that he do so, at the margins anyway. He is to give us hints about the future, without giving us really clear hints. And our author has confessed to needing to conceal part of Miko's nature. [I tend to question whether he needed to, or effectively did, but such is his statement on the point.]

So yes, you can tell the author he just doesn't know what he is talking about about his own book, and be correct.

[Kish]

Just to clarify:

Rich has stated that his initial intent was for V to be a man,

No, he stated that Vaarsuvius' gender was not originally supposed to be ambiguous. People on the forums quickly corrupted that into "He's said that Vaarsuvius was originally supposed to be male," but in fact he's been very careful to avoid ever saying what Vaarsuvius' originally planned gender was.

[CaptainIreland]

I've never understood why authorial intent doesn't matter when it comes to analyzing a text. When the author says, "This is what it means," how do you refute that?

It's similiar to the old prosecutor saying: "Intent follows the bullet."

If a writer means one thing and isn't skilled (or lucky) enough to pull it off, then what he meant is irrelevant, because it's not what he wrote.

[nleseul]

No, he stated that Vaarsuvius' gender was not originally supposed to be ambiguous. People on the forums quickly corrupted that into "He's said that Vaarsuvius was originally supposed to be male," but in fact he's been very careful to avoid ever saying what Vaarsuvius' originally planned gender was.

Well, in fairness, if the earliest explicit reference to V's gender was the "V-Man" quote, and that reference came before any huge forum debate over the gender question, it's not all that unreasonable to infer that at the time he wrote that, Rich saw V as male. Not as strong as an explicit statement from Rich, but pretty strong.

Of course, as discussed above, original intent is much less important than the current reality.

[Kish]

Well, in fairness, if the earliest explicit reference to V's gender was the "V-Man" quote, and that reference came before any huge forum debate over the gender question, it's not all that unreasonable to infer that at the time he wrote that, Rich saw V as male. Not as strong as an explicit statement from Rich, but pretty strong.

My interest here is limited to the (lack of) factual accuracy of claims that Rich, at any point, actually said "Vaarsuvius was intended to be male," or words to that effect. :smallyuk:

[Assassin89]

I have just one thing to say about this V gender debate. When in doubt, aim for the groin, and hope the rule of funny takes place.

[ericgrau]

I thought for sure the OP would be talking about their eyes, as that's what immediately jumped out to me. All the guys have even eyes and all the girls have uneven eyes. Even male Roy vs. female Roy. Ah, but that means both V and his spouse are female; the opposite of the OP's conclusion.

Sorry OP, we have both "proof" that V is a guy and "proof" that V is female. I think it's time to take a couple steps back and figure out where things went wrong. Or we could say that all the females in the comic shown have high boobs of roughly equal size, so V's should have been visible in the naked scene if she had them. Or simply accept that V is drawn with both characteristically male and characteristically female features, and neither is "proof" of anything. A better word for them might be "evidence". And pretty weak evidence at that when we all know that the author is intentionally being ambiguous about V's gender.

[AtomicKitKat]

Gez/nlesuel: Please refer to my earlier post in this thread(page 2). Basically, gender confusion only arose on the forums after "V-man". The post no longer exists(except maybe in web-archive.org).

[Gez]

Which proves nothing more than that Roy perceives Vaarsuvius as male.

There is a point you missed. Let me repeat it: This strip predates the whole confusion debate and V's gender wasn't meant to be ambiguous at the time.

It wasn't a question of perception then. In strip 9, Roy says V is male because he knew he is.

Then some readers wanted him to be female instead and later Roy and co were retconned as not knowing for sure. But in the beginning, V was an elf boy.

[Rutskarn]

There is a point you missed. Let me repeat it: This strip predates the whole confusion debate and V's gender wasn't meant to be ambiguous at the time.

It wasn't a question of perception then. In strip 9, Roy says V is male because he knew he is.

Then some readers wanted him to be female instead and later Roy and co were retconned as not knowing for sure. But in the beginning, V was an elf boy.

Technically, it isn't a retcon. None of the previous continuity is ignored, it's just reinterpreted as using a pronoun for convenience's sake.

This ludicrously self-indulgent and pointless nitpickery and subsequent lampshade hanging thereof is brought to you by...

Wait. I can say anybody's name here, right?

Brought to you by Player_Zero. That bastard.

[Lira]

The post no longer exists(except maybe in web-archive.org).They still exist, and you can conveniently find them using the Discussion Thread Index II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103669).[/advertising]
Ahem. Anyway, here's the first post anyone ever made regarding V's gender (and yes, it was about comic #9):

LOL! *Good comic. *Reminds me of when James Bull, the minotaur, was turned into a woman by one of those! *

Question though.....I've been thinking this whole time that Vaarsuvius was a female.....but in this last strip he/she was called V-man. *So Vaarsuvius is a guy?
And Rich's first response to the issue:
I have no problem with Vaarsuvius' sex being ambiguous. He/she is an elf, after all.

All you can infer from the last strip is that *Roy* thinks Vaarsuvious is male. ;)It seems likely to me that yes, V was intended to be male, but I don't see the point in discussing it in gender debates. Just because V was meant to be male originally doesn't mean V still is. Rich has made it very clear that V is not "male" or "female", (s)he's androgynous now.

[The Neoclassic]

And Rich's first response to the issue:It seems likely to me that yes, V was intended to be male, but I don't see the point in discussing it in gender debates. Just because V was meant to be male originally doesn't mean V still is. Rich has made it very clear that V is not "male" or "female", (s)he's androgynous now.

First off, thank you very much for digging up that quote by the Giant! How you state it seems to me to be the best way of approaching the matter, not to mention the most accurate metacomic analysis. :smallsmile:

[ikrase]

I say V is male, mate is female.
I think there are 2 kinds of elves, perhaps. Or that V and kids are strange. We can see the kids genders too , sort of

[CaptainIreland]

Technically, it isn't a retcon. None of the previous continuity is ignored, it's just reinterpreted as using a pronoun for convenience's sake.

Technically, retcons include reinterpretation. Discontinuity is a different thing altogether.

[Rutskarn]

Technically, retcons include reinterpretation. Discontinuity is a different thing altogether.

However, retcon implies that a previous event occurred in a different fashion, if it does not outright define it as such. The word "retcon" is a trifle strong for this usage.

Uh. I mean, what can I say? Player_Zero, right?

Boy, he's stupid. Also smelly.

[CaptainIreland]

However, retcon implies that a previous event occurred in a different fashion, if it does not outright define it as such. The word "retcon" is a trifle strong for this usage.

If you want to nitpick, I guess...

I don't think there's anything to this but a retcon. One thing was shown, the author reinterpreted it to be something else...but I guess people like you just feel retcon is a dirty word, I don't know.

[Rutskarn]

If you want to nitpick, I guess...

I don't think there's anything to this but a retcon. One thing was shown, the author reinterpreted it to be something else...but I guess people like you just feel retcon is a dirty word, I don't know.

In a way, yes. I...Player Zero admits that he has a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to its usage, but I...he thinks that the intent behind a retcon (to change something because it doesn't work or interferes with future plot ideas) isn't really carried out in what is essentially just filling in a detail Burlew hadn't previously much considered.

[The_Void]

With the evidence before you.

Now the author is in a privileged position with inside knowledge, but he is also mortal. That means he makes mistakes. So what he says he meant may not be what he said or meant. [In fact, it never is if we are picky enough about details.]
Now our writer has said that he never showed V as Good, only to be shown #11, which shows V as sickened, and thus of good alignment. He admitted that was the proper deduction to be drawn from the comic, but noted this did not mean V is still good.



Actually...


...in strip #11, everyone but Belkar was sickened by an Unholy Blight spell cast by an evil goblin cleric. Therefore, everyone in the party is of Good alignment except Belkar.

Post 308 on this page. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7333&page=11)

[Sholos]

First off, thank you very much for digging up that quote by the Giant! How you state it seems to me to be the best way of approaching the matter, not to mention the most accurate metacomic analysis. :smallsmile:

You mean, the same way every other person has been stating it? :smallsigh:

[Volkov]

I believe V is a guy. I also believe V's mate is a guy. Not because of their children (strange and discoloured as they are) but because of this:

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/shouldiers.png http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/elffemale.png
[edit: Lirian added for female elf comparison]

Now I'm sure you're about to ask, "what chu on about foo'? why ya giving us an array of pictures of peoples heads?"
firstly, I'm not giving you an array of peoples heads, I'm giving you an array of peoples shouldiers. As an artist I know that men have square shouldiers, and women have curved shouldiers. Of course you can argue OotS is a stick comic, (enphisis on stick) basic artistic rules don't apply. But they do. With V's robe on you can argue that he could look either male or female because it hides V's form quite well. But really, V would have to be one dykish woman when compared to all the other females in OotS for none of the sterotypical woman features to appear when his naked.
Seriously, look at the image of V hiding behind a dragon. Does his shouldiers look more like Elen's or Haleys? there is no gentle curve that Haley's shouldiers have, or any of the females have. Even if they're wearing armour they still have it. Female Roy had the clear change in shouldiers.
http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/roy.png
see the difference between the bodys? Naked V completely lacks that curve. I don't care how loose fitting his clothing may be. but out of them he has a body of a man. Elves are not known for haveing big heavy bodies, so I don't think V is a manly girl. He has mans shouldiers he is a man.
As for the mate.... well he also has man shouldiers. He is not even wearing anything loose fitting. I don't think the giant was trying to hide his gender, as he already knows that we're confused as it is over V's gender. why would he need to?
Which leads me to conclude... both are male. the shouldiers never lie.

I think elves are either hermaphrodites or reproduce asexually in OOTS.

[The Neoclassic]

You mean, the same way every other person has been stating it? :smallsigh:

If it was the same way every other person has been stating it, then there wouldn't be so many "pointless" threads on this topic, nor a continued discussion. If you mean "The most sensible way as is generally accepted by roughly a majority of people who post on these threads," then yes.


I say V is male, mate is female.


Sorry OP, we have both "proof" that V is a guy and "proof" that V is female.

Every other person? :smallconfused:

I don't claim that Lira's response was unique or groundbreaking, but it is far from universally accepted that V is meant to be and will stay ambigious. If that was the case, no one would be claiming to have "proof" of one way or the other.

[Sholos]

If it was the same way every other person has been stating it, then there wouldn't be so many "pointless" threads on this topic, nor a continued discussion. If you mean "The most sensible way as is generally accepted by roughly a majority of people who post on these threads," then yes.

Every other person? :smallconfused:

I don't claim that Lira's response was unique or groundbreaking, but it is far from universally accepted that V is meant to be and will stay ambigious. If that was the case, no one would be claiming to have "proof" of one way or the other.

I was speaking specifically (and I thought fairly obviously) of the other posters who said the exact same thing, i.e. that V was probably intended to be male at the start, but is now ambiguous on purpose. It's just a little annoying to me when I say something, other people say the same thing, and then later someone gushes over something that I (and other people) said earlier, but only attribute it to one person.

[dragongirl13]

I'd like to point out that in SoD:
There are several elven defenders of Lirian's Gate who have curves, but no *ahem* female body parts. Their eyes are also lower on the head, if that's even supposed to mean anything. However, some of them seem entirely masculine to me. The point of this is, essentially, that about 50% of OotS elves are entirely genderless. V, his/her mate, and their kids are four of those 50%.

[Sequinox]

it is true it is Rich's comic... but I think you'll find V is his own character.... (if you were a writer you'd understand what I mean)


Don't you love it when characters - or whole stories - take on a life of their own? One time, I was writing a short story, and then there was a massive plot twist that came to me on the spot - and now that's a 140 page novel I'm working on.

[kpenguin]

I believe V is a guy. I also believe V's mate is a guy. Not because of their children (strange and discoloured as they are) but because of this:

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/shouldiers.png http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/elffemale.png
[edit: Lirian added for female elf comparison]

Now I'm sure you're about to ask, "what chu on about foo'? why ya giving us an array of pictures of peoples heads?"
firstly, I'm not giving you an array of peoples heads, I'm giving you an array of peoples shouldiers. As an artist I know that men have square shouldiers, and women have curved shouldiers. Of course you can argue OotS is a stick comic, (enphisis on stick) basic artistic rules don't apply. But they do. With V's robe on you can argue that he could look either male or female because it hides V's form quite well. But really, V would have to be one dykish woman when compared to all the other females in OotS for none of the sterotypical woman features to appear when his naked.
Seriously, look at the image of V hiding behind a dragon. Does his shouldiers look more like Elen's or Haleys? there is no gentle curve that Haley's shouldiers have, or any of the females have. Even if they're wearing armour they still have it. Female Roy had the clear change in shouldiers.
http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo28/patchwork_chickie/roy.png
see the difference between the bodys? Naked V completely lacks that curve. I don't care how loose fitting his clothing may be. but out of them he has a body of a man. Elves are not known for haveing big heavy bodies, so I don't think V is a manly girl. He has mans shouldiers he is a man.
As for the mate.... well he also has man shouldiers. He is not even wearing anything loose fitting. I don't think the giant was trying to hide his gender, as he already knows that we're confused as it is over V's gender. why would he need to?
Which leads me to conclude... both are male. the shouldiers never lie.

Sir, or madam as your avatar would suggest, your observations are indeed astute. I disagree with your conclusions, but your line of reasoning is sound. Given other circumstances, I might agree with you.

However, I too notice the tells of gender Rich uses in his art. I am an avartist, and a decent one if I might say so myself, and have thus dedicated some small amount of time to replicating his art. Believe me be to be qualifed, then, to make my next statement:

V and his/her mate's artistic rendering makes them ambigious in gender.

Do you still disbelieve in their ambiguity? Then observe:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/kpenguin222/eye-line.jpg
Unlike your sets of pictures, mine truly are sets of heads and not sets of shoulders. I fear I did not collect as much as you did, but these will suffice for the time being. Now, can we agree that Roy is male and Haley is female? Yes? Good, than we shall proceed.

What I want you, and anyone else reading this post, to look at are the eyes. See the difference in eyeline in the first two pictures? Roy's eyes are a bit higher than Haley's eyes. This is one of the conventions of Rich Burlew's OotS-style art, at least one extrapolated by the avatarists of the Arts & Crafts Board. The eyes of the male are always higher than the females.

Now, when we look to the eyes of V and his/her mate, something interesting happens. Both of them are roughly level with each other, but with neither Roy's male eyeline nor Haley's female eyeline. They are right in the middle, clearly implying that they are something in between.

Now, as you would imagine, I was a bit shocked when I originally conducted this experiment. I, like you, had always believed V to undoubtedly male because of the shoulders. This revelation, however, placed doubt into my undoubt and made my doubtful of my undbout and less doubtful of others' doubt. Understand?

Granted, my sample may be flawed. I must admit I have concerns about my ability to ensure that all the heads are level for an accurate measurement. Nevertheless, I stand committed in my belief that Rich has not yet revealed V's gender and neither has he revealed that of V's mate.

You yourself may believe whatever you please, but please keep this in mind.

EDIT: Also, a word of warning, stating that you "know" V's gender is considered to be trolling by many around this board. I myself disagree with this view, but it is held by a sizeable portion and I must urge you to use caution when discussing this, among other, topics to prevent being on the bad end of an internet backdraft.

[Selene]

Wow, the grammar Nazis are out in full force. :smallfrown:

This is the first time I have ever heard that anyone thought Tolkien had gay elves. But then some people interpreted Ged Sparrowhawk as white, and made a movie about him that way, so I guess everything is possible.

Anyway, V will always be male to me, unless Rich draws him giving birth. V's mate's face looks a little girly to me for no identifiable reason, but I'm leaning heavily toward them being a gay couple. And I do think it would add a lot to the story. Certainly more than having them ambiguous has added. As far as them having a wedding, gay marriage is still legal where I live. And I know gay couples in other states who wear wedding rings and consider themselves married, legal or not. So that is also irrelevant to determining gender or orientation.

And don't get me started on Paolini. I just read the first two books out of morbid fascination with how much my son loves them. Something gives me the feeling that the kid liked Star Wars. LOL.

[Sholos]

Wow, the grammar Nazis are out in full force. :smallfrown:
Yes. How dare we expect people to have even the slightest ability to write properly. After all, it's just an Internet forum. It's not like anyone on here matters or deserves the respect due to a fellow human being. :smallsigh:


This is the first time I have ever heard that anyone thought Tolkien had gay elves. But then some people interpreted Ged Sparrowhawk as white, and made a movie about him that way, so I guess everything is possible.

Anyway, V will always be male to me, unless Rich draws him giving birth. V's mate's face looks a little girly to me for no identifiable reason, but I'm leaning heavily toward them being a gay couple. And I do think it would add a lot to the story. Certainly more than having them ambiguous has added. As far as them having a wedding, gay marriage is still legal where I live. And I know gay couples in other states who wear wedding rings and consider themselves married, legal or not. So that is also irrelevant to determining gender or orientation.
What, exactly, would it add to the story that V being married doesn't already add?


And don't get me started on Paolini. I just read the first two books out of morbid fascination with how much my son loves them. Something gives me the feeling that the kid liked Star Wars. LOL.
Yeah, a little too much.

[nleseul]

I'm leaning heavily toward them being a gay couple. And I do think it would add a lot to the story. Certainly more than having them ambiguous has added.

I actually disagree with this. Much as I value positive portrayals of gay characters, it's not like there's a real shortage of those in the media these days. And, given the audience of OOTS, I don't think too many readers have preconceptions about homosexuality that need to be challenged.

Whereas keeping V's gender ambiguous provides lots of opportunity to deconstruct the reader's preconceptions about gender. I think the plethora of gender debate threads adequately demonstrates that a lot of people are thinking about gender as a result of V—not all of them intelligently, of course, but enough to make the exercise worthwhile.

[David Argall]

This is one of the conventions of Rich Burlew's OotS-style art, at least one extrapolated by the avatarists of the Arts & Crafts Board. The eyes of the male are always higher than the females.

May I suggest this is an artifact from the hairline? The eyes are more or less centered in the blank area and the hairline lowers that for females. So when "males" like V and parent have a good deal of hair, the eyes move downward.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: There are other V gender threads. Please don't start multiple threads on a single subject. And please don't repost images from the comic (not even pieces).