Good classes for defensive optimization?

[Glooble Glistencrist]

So, I'm not normally an optimizer. I like role-playing and tend to care a lot more about interesting concepts then things like damage output per round. But some of my friends are running a gestalt campaign the point of which is to see who can break the game the most, and I don't want to completely embarrass myself.

We already have a lot of glass cannon types. What I'd like to shoot for is a broken build that just completely sucks up damage, by not getting hit, not taking damage when he is hit, and having enough HP not to care when he does take damage. So does anyone have any suggestions for classes that would combine well for this effect?

All 3.5 books are allowed, as well as some 3.0 stuff (DM's discretion.) We are using Rich's polymorph rules. Thanks guys.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There are 7 types of defenses. HP, AC, Touch AC, Fort, Reflex, Will, and miss chances. Pick which of those you want to optimize, because you can't build all of them high. I recommend the Knight or Crusader class because they allow you to draw fire for your allies as well as being massively survivable. Do you have something picked for the other side of the Gestalt, or do we get to build from the ground up?

[Tempest Fennac]

Crusaders from Tome of Battle are great for this; some of their Maneuvers restore HPs and they can delay some damage while boosting their combat abilities using it. A Barbarian with a 1 level Fighter dip for a bonus feat and heavy armour proficiency would be good as well. Also, you may want to look at the PHB 2's Combat Focus feat; Combat Vigor grants Fast Healing 2 while in Combat Focus, which is boosted to Fast Healing 4 when you get another CF feat (Combat Stability is good).

EDIT: I'd probably pick Crusader/Favoured Soul for this due to how I'd get to boost my Will saves using Cha while having all good saves.

[RTGoodman]

You could have one side of your Gestalt progression be Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard or something like that, for Mettle and TWICE your Charisma bonus to all saves, plus heavy armor and good HP. Not sure for the other side.

PHB2's Knight class is really good defensive class that gets more Charisma synergy and can "draw fire" away from other allies. ToB's Crusader is the same way, and gets a lot of good stances and maneuvers, too.


EDIT: Also, a pretty easy way to ignore AC completely (or almost completely) is to find several ways to get miss chances. At higher levels especially, they can really save you.

[Eldariel]

Spells are the easiest way. That said, I'd go for stat stack on one side and spellcasting on the other; getting Con to AC, Touch AC, Will, Fort and naturally applied to HP is pretty good starting point. Dragonborn Dwarf (or Stoneblessed (RoS class) Mongrelfolk), or Were Dire Vulture if you really wanna pimp the stats out (shapeshifting would easily get that for you without LA, racial HD or stupid craft though).

Then focus one side on spellcasting (Cleric or Wizard or Archivist or Artificer or Psion; Psionics offers some nice AC buffs, but making them last all day is slightly more difficult; Artificer and Archivist are nice 'cause they don't need to PrC much at all) and get a crapton of defensive buffs, contingencies and such (immediate action defenses are damn efficient; Wings of Cover, Abrupt Jaunt, Greater Mirror Image, etc.).


So yea, high Con, max. casting stat, rest don't really matter. Then just get Con to AC twice, Con to all saves, etc. and if possible, casting stat to saves and so on. Then profit.

[wadledo]

As you can see, there are two thoughts to this.

Armored, which gives massive AC, decent Fort and Will saves, and (depending on how you run with it), pretty good offensive abilities, which is nice even if you want a defender type character.

Un-Armored, with Monk/Swordsage/PrC's that gives you different stats to AC on one side, and wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid/any decent full caster.
This one gives decent AC, very good touch AC, phenomenal saves, and either abysmal offensive capabilities(if you use up all your spellcasting giving yourself boosts to AC), or half decent offensive capabilities, if you rely more on your monk/whatever side.

Now you just need to decide which way you want to go.

[Dogmantra]

I'm not an optimiser by any stretch of the imagination, but a couple of ideas spring to mind:
Monk//Cleric or Druid: primary casting stat to AC, plus some nice abjurative spells for extra protection. High Dex, Con and Wis needed though

X//Barbarian: the Barbarian hitdice would be nice, even if you don't use any of the other class features

[theMycon]

Monk//Cleric or Druid: primary casting stat to AC, plus some nice abjurative spells for extra protection. High Dex, Con and Wis needed though
One of the common abuses of this is- Buy level 1 Pearl of Power.
Have the party mage cast a "dedicated" mage armor on you with this*.
Get the affects of Bracers of Armor +4 for 1,000 gold, until every enemy drops a dispel on you. By which point you may want to switch to invisibility.

*if more books are allowed, there's a divine equivalent in one of the completes. I think Complete Divine? Maybe BoExalted Deeds?

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see.... for a very highly defensive build that can still dish things out...

Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Whatever-5//UA Variant Paladin-2 (Tyrrany or Slaughter) (Charisma to saves)/Hexblade-3 (Charisma to saves vs. Spells and Spell-like effects, plus Mettle)/Monk-10 (Evasion, Wis to AC, d8 hit die, all good saves, a handful of other things)/Arcane Duelist-5 (Charisma to AC again, plus a few other things)

Feat: Ascetic Mage (Changes Monk's Wis to AC to Charisma to AC, plus some other goodies).

At the end, you've got:
1) Full Charisma-based spellcasting (including things like Blur, Blink, Displacement, and Mirror Image)
2) The ability to get any PHB Sor/Wiz spell on one-rounds notice (a sharply limited number of times per day, but still...)
3) Charisma to AC twice (and you still have Dexterity to AC)
4) Charisma to all saves, plus charisma to saves vs. spells and spell-like effects again (plus ten levels of all good saves, five levels of good Fort/Will, Five levels of good Reflex/Will).
5) 15 levels of d8 hit die, 5 levels of d10 hit die.
6) 5 levels of full BAB, 10 levels of 3/4 BAB, 5 levels of 1/2 BAB (net BAB: 15, if you use Fractional BAB)

Sufficient?

[insecure]

You could have one side of your Gestalt progression be Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard or something like that, for Mettle and TWICE your Charisma bonus to all saves, plus heavy armor and good HP. Not sure for the other side.

I don't think the charisma bonuses stack - aren't they the same type of bonuses?

[Jack_Simth]

I don't think the charisma bonuses stack - aren't they the same type of bonuses?
Sort of; they're both untyped. Many, many, many DM's will say "no" when you attempt to do that type of thing, however.

[RTGoodman]

I don't think the charisma bonuses stack - aren't they the same type of bonuses?

They do by RAW.


Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

The bonuses come from different sources (Hexblade and Paladin), and are unnamed bonuses, which stack with anything. PHB pg. 305 further indicates the that unnamed bonuses always stack. Either way, the two abilities don't even have the same name - the Hexblade's is Arcane Resistance, while the Paladin's is Divine Grace. If they both had the same name it might be a little different (since you might consider that the same "source"), but as-is they do stack.

[Eldariel]

I'd probably so Dragonborn Dwarf Cleric/Dweomerkeeper//Paladin/Monk/Fist of the Forests/Deepwarden/Hexblade (or probably rather Pious Templar)/whatever with Serenity-feat [Dragon Compendium] and Initiate of Mystra [Player's Guide to Faerun]

Gets you:
2xCon and Wis to AC
Wis to all saves
Huge Con and Wis for high base saves
Evasion & Mettle
Huge Con for HP
Wis-based casting with easy access to relevant arcane spells.
Ability to walk around in a permanent Anti-Magic Field with all his buffs on on higher levels. Denies your opponents magic while you still have yours.


That's a fully adjustable build; depending how strong you want to be, you can take all sorts of divine magic tricks into the build and if you really want, you could just jump into Polymorph-bandwagon to kick even more ass. Anthropomorphic Bat is naturally the better race, but it's also stupid and ridiculous, so I'm not suggesting that. Free Wishes and such are available if you feel like it, but by no means necessary or even integral to making the character work.

Oh yeah, and you have Charisma to saves too, but your Charisma is like to be rather trivial; +5 or so at best. Still, having your very considerable Con+Wis to your saves (might be worth buffing Ref) and Wis twice means you'll be ok. The AC is gonna be really high.


Hell, if you feel like it, become a Saint for an extra time Wis to AC.

[JeminiZero]

If you want unkillable, perhaps the gestalt build challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89033) may give you some inspiration.

I am surprised that no one has suggested regeneration as a source of invulnerability (e.g. frankenstein trolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587)). See if your DM will allow Troll-Blooded, then you can tack it onto Warforged Juggernaut (for something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5603719#post5603719)), which AFAIK is the only way to gain immunity to Death Effects as an Ex ability.

[Fax Celestis]

Knight//Scout (with the Riposte variant on the WotC website) is pretty good. All good saves, d12 HD, full BAB, simple/martial weapons, light/med/heavy armor, trapfinding, 6+Int skills, Knight's Challenge, Riposte, evasion...Get yourself Combat Expertise and a shield and go to town. If you feel like it, maybe even go into Dwarven Defender or Deepstone Sentinel, but the benefits of either base class are pretty much superior to either PrC in this context.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Knight//Scout (with the Riposte variant on the WotC website) is pretty good. All good saves, d12 HD, full BAB, simple/martial weapons, light/med/heavy armor, trapfinding, 6+Int skills, Knight's Challenge, Riposte, evasion...Get yourself Combat Expertise and a shield and go to town. If you feel like it, maybe even go into Dwarven Defender or Deepstone Sentinel, but the benefits of either base class are pretty much superior to either PrC in this context.Very nice. The 2 classes even make for a fun mental image, a Fighter who draws enemy fire not by being tough, but by running. Imp Skirmish, maxed Tumble, and go strike and run. May not be the best option, either in terms of effectiveness or defense, but so fun.

[Fax Celestis]

Very nice. The 2 classes even make for a fun mental image, a Fighter who draws enemy fire not by being tough, but by running. Imp Skirmish, maxed Tumble, and go strike and run. May not be the best option, either in terms of effectiveness or defense, but so fun.

Well, Riposte isn't Skirmish. It's a little different:

Riposte

While most scouts rely on mobility to overcome their opponents, some focus instead on taking advantage of the openings their foes provide in combat when making their own attacks.

Class: Scout.

Level: 1st.

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain skirmish or any later improvements to that class feature.

Ability: Any time the scout attacks a foe that has made a melee or ranged weapon attack against her within the past round (whether or not the attack hit you), her attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every four levels gained above 1st (2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 9th, 4d6 at 13th, and 5d6 at 17th).

This extra damage applies only against living creatures that have a discernable anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. She can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks, but only if the target is within 30 feet.

At 3rd level, the scout gains a +1 competence bonus to Armor Class against any creature to which she has dealt riposte damage, as described above. This bonus lasts until the start of her next turn. If she deals riposte damage to more than one creature in a round, she gains this bonus against all of them; it is not limited to a single foe. This bonus improves by 1 for every four levels gained above 3rd (+2 at 7th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 19th level).

The scout loses this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

...but it does synergize very nicely with the Knight's Challenge class feature. You draw your enemies to you, force them to attack you, and then swing back--hard. Mixing in Deadly Defense + Combat Expertise + Improved Combat Expertise (or your typical Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit shtick) makes this better. And if you can get your hands on Pearl of Black Doubt (say, via 1 level of Warblade), then you can get your AC to some truly obscene numbers.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, Riposte isn't Skirmish. It's a little different:

Riposte

While most scouts rely on mobility to overcome their opponents, some focus instead on taking advantage of the openings their foes provide in combat when making their own attacks.

Class: Scout.

Level: 1st.

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain skirmish or any later improvements to that class feature.

Ability: Any time the scout attacks a foe that has made a melee or ranged weapon attack against her within the past round (whether or not the attack hit you), her attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every four levels gained above 1st (2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 9th, 4d6 at 13th, and 5d6 at 17th).

This extra damage applies only against living creatures that have a discernable anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. She can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks, but only if the target is within 30 feet.

At 3rd level, the scout gains a +1 competence bonus to Armor Class against any creature to which she has dealt riposte damage, as described above. This bonus lasts until the start of her next turn. If she deals riposte damage to more than one creature in a round, she gains this bonus against all of them; it is not limited to a single foe. This bonus improves by 1 for every four levels gained above 3rd (+2 at 7th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 19th level).

The scout loses this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

...but it does synergize very nicely with the Knight's Challenge class feature. You draw your enemies to you, force them to attack you, and then swing back--hard. Mixing in Deadly Defense + Combat Expertise + Improved Combat Expertise (or your typical Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit shtick) makes this better. And if you can get your hands on Pearl of Black Doubt (say, via 1 level of Warblade), then you can get your AC to some truly obscene numbers.Darn it. I really prefer the idea of a Scout who pulls the enemies to her, hits them once, then runs away, forcing them to give chase.

[keilyn]

LOL - I don't know about builds, but I once had a gnome with a spell that I found online I think... have to look it up, but basically it was " nah-nah-nah-nah you can't hit me!" as long as you jumped around looking like an idiot and chanting the spell, you got a +20 bonus to AC.
Great distraction. If you want, I can look it up, and you can talk to your DM about it.

[Glooble Glistencrist]

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm working on something based on this, but I'd like some specific answers.

1. Is there a way to get Con to AC without being a Dwarf (or wasting 3 levels on stoneblessed?)
2. What exactly gives you Cha to AC?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm working on something based on this, but I'd like some specific answers.

1. Is there a way to get Con to AC without being a Dwarf (or wasting 3 levels on stoneblessed?)
2. What exactly gives you Cha to AC?Cha to AC requires Arcane Duelist(an online class, but I don't have my link, sorry) or a specific Monk feat that also requires a level of Arcane Casting. There may be others, but someone else will have to link the "X stat to Y bonus" thread. Sorry.

[RTGoodman]

X Stat to Y Bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) - one of the best threads ever.


Anyway, I think Fist of the Forest (PrC from Complete Champion) gives Con to AC without being a Dwarf, but you have to meet other prerequisites. As for Cha to AC, see the above link.

[Temp.]

2. What exactly gives you Cha to AC? Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer. It's a Monk/Sorcerer-type feat.

Also Nymph, I guess. But that probably isn't practical.

[edit:]Or check Kiwi's list. That works too.

[Eldariel]

1. Is there a way to get Con to AC without being a Dwarf (or wasting 3 levels on stoneblessed?)

The trick is getting Con to AC twice. That's why Stoneblessed is a good idea; Deepwarden replaces your Dex to AC with Con to AC and since you don't wear any armor and your Con is already stratospheric, it's a v. good idea.

[TK-Squared]

Alternatively; The Masochist (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-144104).

It's defensive, but gets hit; alot.

[Malacode]

I think I managed to break my DM at one point with that Con to AC twice thing. Also in there was CHA to AC twice and Saves once, as well as a stupid amount of HP and constant concealment, Energy Resistance anddddd... Damage Reduction 5 or so. It's amazing what you can achieve with one to three levels in a class. Just look through the Complete Series, there'll be a whole heap of stuff you can use (AND stack)

[Jack_Simth]

X Stat to Y Bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) - one of the best threads ever.


Anyway, I think Fist of the Forest (PrC from Complete Champion) gives Con to AC without being a Dwarf, but you have to meet other prerequisites. As for Cha to AC, see the above link.
Do be warned: It's not a perfect index. You need to go through and check the primary source prior to trusting it on a particular item.

[kalt]

I have actually witnessed Fighter/Deep Warden/Dwarven Defender being rather amusing. If you take that and maybe pick up some disarm/ or sunder you could make something that is rather nasty and completely playable through all levels.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why bother with AC when you can simply make it obsolete?

Two ways to do this:

1) Swordsage. Setting Sun discipline has all KINDS of 'no' buttons. Everything from "I move when you swing at me, so you can't make a full attack" to "I make a Sense Motive check, and you hit yourself instead". They also have Evasion, and a series of "Replace Save of Choice with a Concentration Check" maneuvers to pretty much say 'NO' to any spell.

This build will also greatly benefit from a Cloak of Displacement or a Ring of Greater Blur. A Necklace of Adaptation will negate the whole Forcecage + Cloudkill combo.

2) Warforged Warblade/Warforged Juggernaut. Say 'Hello" to Mr. No. He's not really worried about physical damage, because he can negate it easy enough. He's also immune to almost any form of 'shut down'. You can also pick up the 'Replace Save of Choice with Concentration', so you don't have to worry about saves anyways, you are inherintly immune to necro effects (like Enervation and Harm), death effects, mind-affecting, and a whole host of other things.

[kalt]

Yes of course there are ways to do that as well. I mean heck for something like that you could make a lockdown build(melee)+TOB for much much more fun or just play an IOTSVF and just call it a game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes of course there are ways to do that as well. I mean heck for something like that you could make a lockdown build(melee)+TOB for much much more fun or just play an IOTSVF and just call it a game.

Not a 'lockdown' build so much as a 'No Thank You' build. In fact, ToB is pretty poor for Lockdown builds. That's much better done with PsiWar + Spiked Chain + (Expansion)^2 + Karmic Strike + Improved Trip.

[PinkysBrain]

Look it's gestalt, he says they are all optimized ... why are you all being so wishy washy ... even without broken cheese he can get nearly everything.

What does he need?

High AC + high touch AC (high dex with an extra stat to AC with say a monk's belt, or armor/shield to touch AC ... both work)
Evasion
Mettle
Save Rerolls
(Ranged) Attack deflection
Mirror Image
Blinking
Displacement
Immediate action DD or Teleport
Something like blindsight (so you can fight in darkness/smoke while the opponent can't see you)

And most importantly ...
_Range_

Melee is not the place to be if you don't want to get hit, I'd suggest using a bow ... with a blood seeking, seeking, distance bow and far shot you could sit a mile away behind cover and still shoot stuff (as long as it has blood) with the right spells.

Glooble, how are you guys handling prestige classes and double progression prestige classes?

[Arbitrarity]

Not a 'lockdown' build so much as a 'No Thank You' build. In fact, ToB is pretty poor for Lockdown builds. That's much better done with PsiWar + Spiked Chain + (Expansion)^2 + Karmic Strike + Improved Trip.

Thicket of Blades.
That's all you need from ToB.

[Lycanthromancer]

Take swordsage for defense, and egoist (with research for psychic warrior powers) for offense.

Seriously, psychic warrior powers are awesome for offensive trickery (and access to metamorphosis with a medium BAB to boot isn't bad, either).

Just check out this psychic warrior build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2926.msg97988#msg97988).

Just replace psywar with egoist, and use a few powers to do similar things to the feats, and there you are.

(PS, if you need me to post the actual build due to not having an account at BrilliantGameologists, let me know.)