View Full Version : [3.5] TOB - {gemstone} Nightmare Blade maneuvers

2009-02-09, 12:56 PM
Is it intentional, that only the weakest of these three maneuver (Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Diamond Nightmare Blade) renders the opponent flatfooted?

Seems to me they messed up the progression with this chain of maneuvers. The Sapphire Nightmare Blade has so many uses, because in addition to the extra 1d6 of damage it does, it renders the target flatfooted against that attack. The "upgrades" to Sapphire Nightmare blade only do additional damage. It looks like they forgot the flatfooted aspect of the first one.

Do you think this is an oversight? Would it be unbalanced to apply the same flatfooted status to Ruby and Diamond Nightmare Blades?

2009-02-09, 01:19 PM
I'd say it's not an oversight. The other Nightmare Blades are actual damage multipliers. Outside very specific Rogue-builds, they're going to deal vastly more damage than just making the opponent Flat-Footed would do. This also keeps Sapphire Nightmare Blade useful on higher levels; one of the wonderful thing about ToB maneuvers is how so few of them get actually obsoleted by higher level maneuvers - you still have uses for Sudden Leap, Blood in the Water, Zephyr Dance, Counter Charge, etc. on higher levels. This applies that to Sapphire Nightmare Blade too (although the fact stands that Ruby is obsoleted by Diamond).

That said, you wouldn't break anything by making the better Nightmare-blades cause opponent to be flat-footed; just about all damage increases you get from opponent being flat-footed are the kind that aren't multiplied. Although that might make hitting with high PA quite easy.

2009-02-09, 11:38 PM
I agree. At low level, things have respectable touch AC's. At high level, a single attack isn't going to be getting you very much even if you power attack through the roof. Now an attack that does 4x as much damage? That you can still power attack on because at high level your best attack is really likely to hit?

2009-02-10, 12:18 AM
I'll second Eldariel on this one.

As an offtopic question (because I don't want to start a new thread...)

If I'm multiclassed with say swordsage and fighter, 6 of each. How would I judge my initiator level?

For non ToB classes, my initiator level is 1/2 my class level. And for ToB classes, it is equal to my class level.
So would a 6ftr and 6sage count as a 9th level initiator? Or is it judged differently? Like initiator 6 for anything I learned through swordsage, and initiator 3 for anything I learned through feats taken when gaining a level as a fighter. (either character level feats, or fighter bonus feats)

2009-02-10, 12:24 AM
IIRC, there is a table for initator levels in the ToB somewhere.
However I think it means that a 6th level fighter and a 6th level swordsage count on that table as a 9th level character. 9th level characters lets you choose maneuvers up to 4th level (maybe 5th?) Im not sure, I don't have the book anymore.

2009-02-10, 12:42 AM
Your IL for all your maneuvers is 9th, meaning you can choose up to 5th-level maneuvers (as long as you meet the other prerequisites for learning the maneuver).

EDIT: See below - I think tyckspoon's answer is more correct and complete.

2009-02-10, 12:42 AM
For an Initiator class, your IL is (initiator class level)+ (1/2 all other class levels.) For Swordsage 6/Fighter 6, the Swordsage Initiator level would be 9. For any maneuvers learned outside of an initiator class- for example, if you took Martial Study as a Fighter before you ever took a class with a normal maneuver progression- the initiator would just be (1/2 class levels). So Fighter 6/Swordsage 6 would have an IL of 6 for his Martial Study maneuvers (this is a very inefficient way to go about it, incidentally- if you take Swordsage first, you could then take Martial Study with a later Fighter level and add the feat-gained maneuver to your normal Swordsage set instead, using the normal Swordsage IL and recovery mechanics.)

Additionally, just as you don't combine caster levels when you multiclass between casting classes, you don't combine initiator levels between initiating classes. At least, not any more than a non-ToB class contributes- a Swordsage 6/Warblade 6 would have an IL of 9 for both classes.