Vote Up A Villain VIII! (3.X) [Voting Closed, Villain Complete!]

[afroakuma]

The madness continues in the eighth round of this popular poll! This contest aims to create a D&D villain, complete with fluff! Please bold your vote.

I am pleased to present the resultant villain, the Omenwrath!

Contests that have gone before (or are currently running):
Vote Up a Monster (3.X) #1 by Zeta Kai
Result: the Gatekeeper

Vote Up a Monster (3.X) #2 by Zeta Kai
Result: the Deus ex Machina

Vote Up a Monster (3.X) #3 by Zeta Kai
Result: the Ectoplasmic Swarm

Vote Up a Monster (3.X) #4 by Zeta Kai
Result: the Polymental

Vote Up a Monster (4E) #1 by Shadow_Elf
Result: the Songbird Spirit

Vote Up a Monster (4E) #2 by Shadow_Elf
Result: the Pandora's Paradox

Vote Up a Villain (3.X) #1 by afroakuma
Result: the Maiden’s Weeping/Swain of Varrone

Vote Up a Villain (3.X) #2 by afroakuma
Result: the Caillteanas

Vote Up a Villain (3.X) #3 by afroakuma
Result: Dandag the Quiet

Vote Up a Villain (3.X) #4 by afroakuma
Result: the Augmoha

Vote Up a Villain (3.X) #5 by afroakuma
Result: the Silver Hellstar

Vote Up a Villain (3.X) #6 by afroakuma
Result: Prince Meridius

Vote Up a Villain (3.X) #7 by afroakuma
Result: the Thief King's Palace

Vote Up A Campaign Setting by Zeta Kai, Shadow_Elf and afroakuma (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96183)
Result: Pending

Several others that I am aware are not here, but which I am not at the moment inclined to run around finding.



Currently Voting On: Voting Closed, Villain Complete

1. Type: Animal


{table=head]Type|Votes
Aberration|2
Animal|19
Construct|
Dragon|1
Elemental|
Fey|2
Giant|
Humanoid|
Magical Beast|
Monstrous Humanoid|
Ooze|
Outsider|2
Plant|
Undead|15
Vermin|
[/table]

2. Race/Species: Unique (Bird)
Vote for any Animal type monster from any 3.X WotC source. The current table contains only animals from the Monster Manual. If you vote for a creature in another source, please list that source with your vote.

{table=head]Animal Species|Votes
Ape|1
Arctic Fox|2
Baboon|
Badger|
Baleen Whale|
Bat|
Bat Swarm|
Bison|
Black Bear|
Boar|
Brown Bear|
Cachalot Whale|
Camel|
Cat|
Cheetah|
Constrictor (Snake)|
Crocodile|
Deinonychus|
Dire Ape|
Dire Badger|
Dire Bat|
Dire Bear|
Dire Boar|
Dire Lion|
Dire Rat|
Dire Shark|
Dire Tiger|
Dire Weasel|
Dire Wolf|2
Dire Wolverine|
Dog|
Donkey|
Eagle|
Elasmosaurus|
Elephant|
Giant Crocodile|1
Giant Octopus|
Giant Squid|
Hawk|1
Heavy Horse|
Heavy Warhorse|
Horse|
Hyena|
Leopard|
Light Horse|
Light Warhorse|
Lion|1
Lizard|1
Manta Ray|
Megaraptor|
Monitor Lizard|
Monkey|1
Mule|
Octopus|1
Orca|
Owl|
Polar Bear|
Pony|5
Porpoise|
Rat Swarm|
Riding Dog|
Rat|1
Raven|
Rhinoceros|
Roc|
Shark|
Snake|
Squid|
Tiger|
Toad|
Triceratops|
Tyrannosaurus|1
Unique (Amphibian)|
Unique (Bird)|11
Unique (Digitigrade mammal)|
Unique (Marine life)|
Unique (Plantigrade mammal)|
Unique (Reptile)|1
Unique (Unguligrade mammal)|
Viper (Snake)|
War Pony|
Weasel|
Wolf|
Wolverine|
[/table]

2b. Class: N/A
You may vote for other classes, but please bear in mind that certain classes have been disallowed. Non-core classes are italicized.

{table=head]Class|Votes|Class|Votes
Artificier||Ninja (new)|
Barbarian||Paladin|
Bard||Psion|
Beguiler||Psychic Warrior|
Cleric||Ranger|
Crusader||Rogue|
Druid||Samurai (new)|
Duskblade||Scout|
Favored Soul||Sorcerer|
Fighter||Swordsage|
Healer||Warblade|
Hexblade||Warlock|
Matador (new)||Wilder|
Marshal||Wizard|
Monk||None|
[/table]

3. CR: N/A

{table=head]CR|Votes
1|
2|
3|
4|
5|
6|
7|
8|
9|
10|
11|
12|
13|
14|
15|
16|
17|
18|
19|
20|
[/table]

4. Alignment: Lawful Evil

{table=head]Alignment|Votes|Alignment|Votes|Alignment|Votes
Lawful Good|2|Neutral Good||Chaotic Good|
Lawful Neutral|1|Neutral|9|Chaotic Neutral|1
Lawful Evil|10|Neutral Evil|4|Chaotic Evil|1
[/table]

5. Primary Motivation: Malevolence

{table=head]Motivation|Votes
Ambition|
Anarchy|
Arrogance|1
Curiosity|
Depression|
Entertainment|
Envy|
Greater good|3
Greed|
Hunger|
Insanity|
Justice|3
Logic|6
Love|
Malevolence|11
Order|
Punch-clock villainy|
Rage|
Revenge|1
Selfishness|
Self-loathing|3
Spite|2
Survival|
[/table]

[Reverent-One]

Let's go Undead this time around.

[Pronounceable]

You are mad. MAD I tell you!

Animal. We haven't ever had one, have we?

[afroakuma]

I know I'm mad. Hence the madness.

I already have great plans for round ten, should my audience allow me to mind-control them survive until that time.

EDIT: Reverent-One, I'm liking the new Vash-atar.

[Limos]

Abberation thanks. I like squidy bad guys.

[thegurullamen]

Speed this round up so we can see the awesome of round ten! Undead!!!!

[puppyavenger]

animal plez.

[evil-frosty]

I am going to go with undead here i have always liked them because you can be so cruel to players with them.

[Zeta Kai]

From out of the darkness the zombie did call.
True pain & suffering he brought to them all.
Away were the children to hide in their beds.
For fear that the Devil would chop of their heads.
..........................-Rob Zombie, Superbeast

Undead.

[Mercenary Pen]

B-b-but we need more villainous Fey...

[afroakuma]

B-b-but we need more villainous Fey...

I did one. Check my sig.

[Saint Nil]

Undead

Lets try an evil undead who believes he's working for the greater good.

[Thane of Fife]

How about an Outsider?

[afroakuma]

Lets try an evil undead who believes he's working for the greater good.

Why do you try to hurt my brain? :smallfrown:

[puppyavenger]

Come on! lets see how Afro somehow makes an animal villainous! please?

[watsyurname529]

I'm going to go with Undead as well.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Undead Outsider!

If there is some intellegent undead template that affects outsiders. Otherwise just outsiders.

[LordZarth]

Animal please. Although Undead would be my second choice.

[MageSparrowhawk]

I want to see an evil Dragon. Partly because I think Dragons are cool (see avi); partly because there hasn't been one done in a VUA yet; and last, because there's so much that you can do with them.

(Besides that, I want a BBEG dragon for the campaign I'm writing, and whatever comes from this site tends to be pretty awesome)

[afroakuma]

I want to see an evil Dragon. Partly because I think Dragons are cool (see avi); partly because there hasn't been one done in a VUA yet; and last, because there's so much that you can do with them.

Lies. Zeta Kai is doing one right now in Vote Up A Monster.

[lesser_minion]

They may take our lives, and they can always take our... wait, that's not inspirational. Damned Undead!

I am truly sorry... :smalleek:

[MageSparrowhawk]

huh...*goes to inspect*

EDIT: I see your point, however, that's a new creature, not a villain, which is what I'm hoping for.

[Llama231]

Animal.
Yes.

[Kazasu]

Undead, with a little luck we may have it this time!

[The Tygre]

I'm throwing my vote in for Animal. I honestly think it has a lot more potential for creativity than the Undead. I mean...-undead- for a villain? Where's the originality? You could probably get more out of an Undead -hero-. Perhaps some kind of contest could be had to construct the specifics. A vote up a Hero contest...yeah...

DIBS!

[afroakuma]

You do realize Lawful Good is an alignment option, yes?

[Lord_Gareth]

Umm, Afro, the Voting Public, isn't the animal type defined by NONsentience and being a creature that either does or once existed on Earth? How can something be a villain when it doesn't understand its actions?

(Please don't make me go through this fight again with everyone).

Also, Fey. Because I love them.

[afroakuma]

*shrug* if I didn't have a solution, I would have struck it from the table.

[Lord_Gareth]

So you have a solution for a villainous animal - which is, by nature, both nonsupernatural and unoriginal - without changing its type? The hell are you going to do, a demon-possessed penguin?

[The Tygre]

You do realize Lawful Good is an alignment option, yes?

DON'T TAKE THIS DREAM FROM ME! Not all of us were gifted with Homebrewing godliness like you, damnit!

[afroakuma]

So you have a solution for a villainous animal - which is, by nature, both nonsupernatural and unoriginal - without changing its type? The hell are you going to do, a demon-possessed penguin?

That is tempting, but no.


An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.


Roc
Gargantuan Animal

Original is entirely up to the voting public. Supernatural is unfortunately denied me. But yes, I can make a villainous animal without changing its type.

[Lord_Gareth]

The "no innate capacity for language or culture" bit worries me. I wonder...oh yeah, they axed Beast! Okay, I remember now.

[afroakuma]

There are still several ways that I could get away with it, and it will be perfectly villainous.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Will the VUAX madness never end!?


I sure hope it doesn´t! :smallbiggrin:

Animal

[LordZarth]

usually

Post too short!





Yay!

[afroakuma]

You know I'm not a fan of cheating like that.

I actually am given more latitude per SRD with a bug than with an animal.

[Juhn]

Curse you, school, for keeping me busy with homework all day, and curse you, afro, for being so quick to start up a new one of these threads. However, bless you, masses, for having voted Undead.

I require my Nightwalker! One more vote for Undead!

[UnChosenOne]

Don't ask why I vote for Undead.

[afroakuma]

We'll see how things pan out.

I just can't wait for round 10.

[Kazasu]

I'm throwing my vote in for Animal. I honestly think it has a lot more potential for creativity than the Undead. I mean...-undead- for a villain? Where's the originality? You could probably get more out of an Undead -hero-. Perhaps some kind of contest could be had to construct the specifics. A vote up a Hero contest...yeah...

DIBS!

A undead vilian's originality is limited only to the creator's creativity and artistic genius (which we have seen both of in Afro. :smalltongue:.) However, I argue the complete point of originality. So many people have worked outside of the box that in order to join the less crowded group, you need to think inside the box. Just my 1...2...3...4....5... maybe 6 cents.

[Alteran]

My vote goes to outsider, but I fear it is too late.

[Limos]

Why does it have to be round 10?

[afroakuma]

Why does what have to be round 10?

[Limos]

Why does what have to be round 10?

You said you can't wait for Round 10, well why does whatever your going to do in that round have to wait for Round 10? Why can't you do the awesome thing you can't wait for in Round 9? Or even this round?

[blackspeeker]

If voting is still open I'll go with animal.

[arguskos]

I think Undead sounds good, particularly a nightwalker.

[Gorgondantess]

Animal! It's not that great, but could be interesting, and is probably better than undead.

[Owrtho]

Just because everyone is voting undead, I'll vote for deathless. And if thats not allowed I'll vote not deathless.

Owrtho

[Vic_Sage]

Fey, there really needs to be more fey.

[Ovaltine Patrol]

I'll cast my lot for Aberration, they're usually horrific fun.

[vegetalss4]

i vote for animal, because I'm curious to how Afro are going to make an villainous animal

[Atelm]

Animal, because it sounds more intriguing than an undead.

[Athaniar]

Undead. Please, by all that is necromantic, no animal.

[afroakuma]

Just because everyone is voting undead, I'll vote for deathless. And if thats not allowed I'll vote not deathless.

Owrtho

Invalid vote. Am I to assume "not deathless" is to mean undead?

[Debihuman]

I am throwing in my vote for Animal. Somehow a villainous animal just strikes me.

Debby

[bue52]

I'll vote for Undead too.

[Vonotar]

I'm curious to see a villainous Animal
So that is where my vote shall go.

[InsiderTrading]

My vote goes to animal.

[afroakuma]

Just realized I hadn't set a tally mark yet.

[MammonAzrael]

Hmm, I'll have to go with Undead.

[Zeful]

AnimalMOAR WORDS!

[Limos]

Can I change my vote from Abberation to Animal?

[Adumbration]

My vote is for Animal. I'd like to see something feral.

[Ratzinkaiser]

I'd like to place a vote for Animal please.

[stolenchariot]

Animal I had an idea along these lines ages ago, and I wanted to see it come to fruitition.

[Llama231]

Yes! Yes! Join the wagon!:smallbiggrin:

[watsyurname529]

Argh! Why is animal winning? Come on people! UNDEAD FTW!

[LordZarth]

The bandwagon of awesomeness will win!

[Lord_Gareth]

I remove my vote from Fey and add it to Undead.

'Cause animals are lame.

[Belobog]

Animal.

We can use Undead for chewing bones. :smalltongue:

[Juhn]

Why do you people insist on denying me my Nightwalker for a second time? I waited patiently while you folks got your Ooze. D:

[afroakuma]

Well, they can have the one.

After I do one Animal villain, I will be striking it from the charts.

[Juhn]

Well, then, we'd better make the rest of the votes count. How many votes are we even going to get with this one? Alignment is a required neutral I believe, and it can't feasibly have a class...

[afroakuma]

Both wrong, but it will indeed not have a class vote.

[Limos]

After I do one Animal villain, I will be striking it from the charts.

You should do that with every type that wins. Once you've done every type you can re-open the full roster again.

[afroakuma]

Uh, no. I mean permanently. It's never ever coming back.

[LordZarth]

Uh, no. I mean permanently. It's never ever coming back.

Why?

(Just wondering--I'm sure you can make good animal villains...)

Or, hold on, wait a sec, can you? Hmm...

Also, @ Juhn: some of us wanted an animal villain back in the time of the Ooze.

[afroakuma]

Alright, the votes are in, and the winner is Animal!

On a side note, I hate you all. For reasons, see the front page for a start.

Now, this badass beast needs its Species. I'm sure you write-in lovers will have even more wonderful things for me to add to the Tower of Animalia.

stabstabstabSTABstabstab...stabstabSTABstab

[Zeful]

Lizardwords!!

[MageSparrowhawk]

hmmm..if it must be animal....

Fox! =D

and if that's horrible, then I want a hawk...

[thegurullamen]

Unique (Bird) and it kills me to have to not say T-Rex.

[afroakuma]

hmmm..if it must be animal....

Fox! =D

and if that's horrible, then I want a hawk...

Either find me a WotC 3.5 fox or you're getting put down for Hawk.

[lesser_minion]

I'll call Unique Avian. Mainly because there are some pretty cool ones out there.

You managed a villainous vermin, so I don't think this Beast of Badass is going to be too hideous.

Except that animals cannot be intelligent.

[afroakuma]

By the rules, if you want something that isn't on the table, you have to point me to a WotC-published 3.X source for it.

[InsiderTrading]

Tyrannosaurus! Unleash the fury!

[Gorgondantess]

Unique (Bird). I was thinking hawk, but this is much cooler.

[afroakuma]

I just want to point out, regarding the Uniques, that they'll still be mundane animals. No two-headed ice-breathing jellyfish or fluorescent ligers.

[lesser_minion]

Yep, it's fixed. I'll just go Unique Avian - that gives you the option to design whatever you want. Including crows, penguins and slightly cooler birds.

[Gorgondantess]

I just want to point out, regarding the Uniques, that they'll still be mundane animals. No two-headed ice-breathing jellyfish or fluorescent ligers.

"mundane" as in non-insane, or mundane as in something more along the lines of a roc?

[afroakuma]

Roc falls under the category of "mundane, but a very large version." Similarly, I could make a tiny elephant.

[Lord_Gareth]

Unique: Avian.

Hope you people are happy now. This is gonna be lame as hell >.<

[MageSparrowhawk]

h'ok...I know there's a winter fox in the frostburn book, but I also found this (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/MMCA/direanimal.html) a while ago. Makes for a decent giant fox to work off of.

[arguskos]

I'll go with Unique (Avian) and I'll also second Lord Gareth. >_>

[Magnor Criol]

..my God...there's...too many choices. You fools, you've doomed us all.

I think I'll cast my vote for Unique (Avian).

Hm.

I'll counter Lord Gareth and say that this round could actually be very interesting, depending on how things go here.

If a Unique gets voted in, then afro gets to actually create an animal - so essentially, we get a new creature out of the deal as well as a villain.

Plus, creating a whole new animal, i.e. a creature that's new and interesting but without any supernatural or magical abilities, could give afro the chance he needs to make this guy really, well, unique.

I still think animal was a poor choice...but it could turn out pretty interesting. We'll see.

[afroakuma]

Hope you people are happy now. This is gonna be lame as hell >.<

I'll do my best. Though I privately concur.

It will be intelligent, anyway.

[Gorgondantess]

Awww, cmon! How is it going to be "lame as hell"? As long as the creator is smart, even a mundane villain can be great. And afroakuma has proven himself to be able to work something interesting into just about anything. I have the feeling this will be just as good as any of the other villains. Besides, if you don't like it you don't have to vote.:smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

I think what he's on about is that Animal is specifically the mundane, boring Type.

[MageSparrowhawk]

*poke* change my vote plzkthx? oh, and was called the arctic fox...in frostburn can't remember its abilities off the top of my head but it'd be very simple to change it to the standard red fox...

[Limos]

I'll vote for Monkey!

Ooh Ooh AAAaaah!

[Lappy9000]

Unique (Avian) has my vote.

[lesser_minion]

I'm not sure which side I'm going to take on this argument. A villainous animal could be interesting, but considering what you're up against, it is going to be really difficult.

An animal is basically either a mundane real-world vertebrate or something that Wizards thought could plausibly exist without needing magic or other supernatural means to sustain itself. (that might have changed - I haven't checked exactly where all of the beasts ended up)

[Lord_Gareth]

Awww, cmon! How is it going to be "lame as hell"? As long as the creator is smart, even a mundane villain can be great. And afroakuma has proven himself to be able to work something interesting into just about anything. I have the feeling this will be just as good as any of the other villains. Besides, if you don't like it you don't have to vote.:smalltongue:

If I don't vote, I don't get to complain :p

And it's not that I doubt Afro's POWER, but rather that Animal is an incredibly lame, boring type to begin with. Afro assures us that he can make it intelligent, and thus appropriately villanous, but at the end of the day we have nothing more threatening or serious than that cat in Cats vs. Dogs or a raven with a thing for driving authors mad. Let me repeat that in simpler terms so I know I'm understood - in terms of villain-class material, animals blow like an angered air elemental.

I mean, might it not have tipped you off when Afro said he was pulling Animal from the list? They're boring. They're mundane. And he's probably jumping through eight kinds of hoops to bring us something that won't suck as much as all the other animals. We're in a freaking fantasy world, people - next time, vote for something fantastic.

[/rant]

[blackspeeker]

unique avian especially if it turns out to be a bird that drives writer's mad. or at the very least rue to everyone it meets.

[Kazasu]

Pony takes my vote. I can completely see a ownage pony getting mad for its slight height difference compared to other horses.

[Mercenary Pen]

Unique (reptile) if you please.

[Pronounceable]

Yay for bandwagon! The more implausible and/or stupid votes get, better Afro performs (see: the evil flower of love).

As for this round: For PONY!
Not only for the lame LFG reference, but also an animal traditionally associated with little girls that proves to be an asskicking and nametaking villain would be a nice trick to spring upon hapless adventurers. Besides:

I just want to point out, regarding the Uniques, that they'll still be mundane animals. No two-headed ice-breathing jellyfish or fluorescent ligers.
this just looks likely to force Afro to waste some of his power on designing a critter that actually fits into animal type in this instance, which'd be better utilized in awesoming up an existing one. Afro could prove me wrong on that tho...

[vegetalss4]

I second FOR PONY

also i believe that Afro pulls animal from the list, not because it is inherently boring, but because he has exactly one idea for an animal villain, and don't want to reuse it.

[Ratzinkaiser]

Seeing the votes placed so far I know I'm throwing my vote away, however I'm rather adamant on seeing what you'd be able to do with a Lion.

[Lord_Gareth]

this just looks likely to force Afro to waste some of his power on designing a critter that actually fits into animal type in this instance, which'd be better utilized in awesoming up an existing one. Afro could prove me wrong on that tho...

CNS, do you remember the ogre? The merfolk? Giving Afro an existing monster never turns out as well as letting him make his own.

Geez people, this is a HOMEBREW board...

[Pronounceable]

I remember the ogre. And he was AWESOME. Merfolk was also very good, only reason it got flak is cos we're spoilt rotten.

And we're talking about an evil pony of [insert motivation here] that kicks ass. There's the residual awesome already.

[afroakuma]

also i believe that Afro pulls animal from the list, not because it is inherently boring, but because he has exactly one idea for an animal villain, and don't want to reuse it.

No, it is because they're inherently boring. Also because there are a very limited number of ways to have an intelligent animal. And before anyone tries it, no: awaken explicitly turns the animal into a Magical Beast.

And I happened to think the ogre was great. The combination of his racial powers, magic item selection and ninja abilities almost made him a Unique all on his own. Having slaughtered parties playtested him recently, I know how menacing he really is and how jarring the fight against him could be.

[afroakuma]

*poke* change my vote plzkthx? oh, and was called the arctic fox...in frostburn can't remember its abilities off the top of my head but it'd be very simple to change it to the standard red fox...

Mmmno. What they have is an arctic fox, so that's what you'll get if it wins.

[puppyavenger]

unique (reptile) on the assumption I can't get a komodo dragon/

[Lord_Gareth]

No, it is because they're inherently boring. Also because there are a very limited number of ways to have an intelligent animal. And before anyone tries it, no: awaken explicitly turns the animal into a Magical Beast.

And I happened to think the ogre was great. The combination of his racial powers, magic item selection and ninja abilities almost made him a Unique all on his own. Having slaughtered parties playtested him recently, I know how menacing he really is and how jarring the fight against him could be.

Tell me, are you going to use a headband of intellect, done up somehow to fit the animal's body?

[afroakuma]

Monitor Lizard would be a komodo dragon.

[Atelm]

The Dire Wolf definitely.

[lesser_minion]

IIRC, there actually isn't some kind of 'All Animals Must Have An Intelligence Score Below 3' in RAW - it just seems to be pretty common. I think that RAI would suggest that animals are either defined by being below Int 3 or that Int 3 or above is really exceptional and requires a +7 backstory of Epic to actually work.

[UnChosenOne]

Unique (Bird).

[afroakuma]

IIRC, there actually isn't some kind of 'All Animals Must Have An Intelligence Score Below 3' in RAW - it just seems to be pretty common. I think that RAI would suggest that animals are either defined by being below Int 3 or that Int 3 or above is really exceptional and requires a +7 backstory of Epic to actually work.


• Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType)

In other words, yes there is.

There are very few ways to bypass that. Very few.

[DracoDei]

I am going to hold off on voting here... but for those of you who think that Int 2 animals can't fit the LITERARY role of villain (if not the technical definition), I invite you to consider the following two stories (one based in reality of course, the other just rather realistic): "The Ghost and The Darkness" and "Cujo".

[afroakuma]

I tried that with the Vermin and got shouted down. They're antagonists, not villains.

[Llama231]

Poeneh
This would be great.:smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

You said you can't wait for Round 10, well why does whatever your going to do in that round have to wait for Round 10? Why can't you do the awesome thing you can't wait for in Round 9? Or even this round?

Well, I think we have a fairly clear answer to this question now.

[lesser_minion]

In other words, yes there is.

There are very few ways to bypass that. Very few.

D'oh! That does, however, lead to the question of what happens when that is bypassed.

I guess that leaves Wish, Headbands of Intellect, and pointing out that this is a 3.x contest and designing a 3.0 monster. Although that last one would still break the type restriction.

I think I'm going to have to get off the fence and second Lord Gareth's 'animals suck as villains' comment here.

[PersonofJid]

I vote octopus. Seriously, we need more octopi.

[afroakuma]

I think I'm going to have to get off the fence and second Lord Gareth's 'animals suck as villains' comment here.

I'll third it. I may be able to pull something out of my hat, but it's going to be awfully weak, no matter what.

I may even have to strike the CR vote, depending on what happens here.

[Limos]

I'm planning to vote CR 2, if you even have one.

An animal villain is only really suited to low level adventures. Unless you make an evil Squirrel who stole an Archmages wand. Squirrel casts Meteor swarm.

[afroakuma]

Without UMD, that would be quite a trick.

[Vonotar]

I'll have to vote for a Unique Bird
Though I suspect Magical Beast would better fit my idea of this.
None the less I have faith that the result will be interesting.

[Juhn]

@ Juhn: some of us wanted an animal villain back in the time of the Ooze.

Please note that that complaining was not genuine. I was just sleep-deprived and coming off of several hours of essay writing and thought it would be funny.

I seem to remember having voted for Animal in a few of these before. I'm just amused that now that I genuinely want a different one everybody decides to vote for it.


I am going to hold off on voting here... but for those of you who think that Int 2 animals can't fit the LITERARY role of villain (if not the technical definition), I invite you to consider the following two stories (one based in reality of course, the other just rather realistic): "The Ghost and The Darkness" and "Cujo".

What about that damned albatross from that one about the mariner?

Also, what on earth is Unguligrade? Although, as a bio major, I should probably already know this.

I find the idea of deliberately splitting the mammal vote strange to begin with, actually.

[Lord_Gareth]

One thing you'll notice in pieces about animal 'villains' is that, yet again, they're not villains. They're monsters, or metaphors, but the thing that makes a villain - the thing that DEFINES one - is intelligent motivation. It's not enough for a villain to simply kill people, or plot against a town, or to be an *******; a villain has to hate, love, rejoice, despair, and feel, or else be so disturbing in its lack of feeling that we cannot help but see a twisted reflection of human nature within them.

Animals make poor villains, because at the end of the day they do what they were trained, either by Man or Nature, to do. Cujo did not hate, he simply attacked. The albatross falls under the 'metaphor' entry (notice that the ship had good luck right up until some damn fool killed it?). Animals are, by nature, reactive instead of proactive, and this makes them rather poorly suited to be The Villain, the foil with which the heroes see themselves.

[LordZarth]

I can't believe you people think this will be a bad villain. This. is. Afroakuma.

Although, it's slightly worrying that you think so too, Afroakuma.

Anyway. I was going to go with Unique Avian, but then I saw Afro's intelligence comment and so I'm going to vote Pony. I fully expect this to be the mostest awesomenest villainiest villain evar. Besides Hellstar. And the Palace. And... other stuff.

But still. An intelligent, EVIL pony from space--I can just imagine my players cracking up, thinking that the EVIL pony is a joke, and then it kills them.

Muwhahaha.

[Limos]

If you really hate it that much Afro then disregard the vote. Chicken out and do an undead instead.

[afroakuma]

If you really hate it that much Afro then disregard the vote. Chicken out and do an undead instead.

Excuse me? Does it really offend you that much that I hate what you voted for?

You have selected the weakest creature type, with virtually no latitude even in monster creation and a gross restriction on Intelligence. I am perfectly entitled to point that out.

Animal as a type was grandfathered in from before the Vermin debate, in which it was made clear to me the level of quality expected of this contest. I frankly do not think it is possible under RAW to reach that level of quality with the creature type given. I can't for the life of me imagine why you all seem to.

But I will not "chicken out" of a democratic choice. I have not had to do so in the past and I would rather that continue. It is quite clear to men, however, that either you all have a grossly overinflated view of my abilities, or you intend this to be something of a farce. I am dreading the alignment and motivation votes, because I can't see this ending in a way that gives me an even remotely coherent starting point.

I will obey the restrictions that have been given to me, and try for the standard to which I hold myself. But you have made a selection knowing full well what it entails. Don't expect another Maiden's Weeping or Silver Hellstar.

I do, however, hate it enough that it will be struck from all future contests.

[Zeta Kai]

Well, with all that said, I shall vote for an awakened Dire Wolf.

[Ovaltine Patrol]

A Giant Crocodile would be cool, you could use the same statistics for a Giant Alligator as well if that better fits a particular concept (since the two animals have different habitats).

[Vic_Sage]

Ugh, Afro your good but I see no way this can really be interesting. Anyway I vote Unique Bird.

[The Tygre]

Yes! Animal won! Take that, laws of raionality! And now that I've swum against the stream, time to let it take me to the ocean. I vote for Unique Bird.

[LordZarth]

It is quite clear to me, however, that either you all have a grossly overinflated view of my abilities

:D Perhaps. But, let's just all calm down and see how this goes.

[Zeta Kai]

Yes! Animal won! Take that, laws of raionality! And now that I've swum against the stream, time to let it take me to the ocean.

If your swimming upstream, then your headed away from the ocean. :smallamused:

[Juhn]

Forums ate my post. Went something like this:

Eh, don't worry about it afro. The people voted, and they'll get what they voted for. You're rather constrained by Type here, but I'm pretty sure you'll come up with something cool. Although it might not be up to the same level as some of your more epic creations due to Type constraints, I'm still pretty sure your Animal villain will be better than what most of the rest of us could create.

Also, what is up with the Dandag hate? Dandag was actually really cool. That advantage of MM-based greatness is one reason why I figure a Nightwalker has the potential to be pure distilled awesome.

That and it's high time Afro made something with a martial class. Does he do ToB?

[lesser_minion]

It is quite clear to me, however, that either you all have a grossly overinflated view of my abilities, or you intend this to be something of a farce. I am dreading the alignment and motivation votes, because I can't see this ending in a way that gives me an even remotely coherent starting point.

I'm beginning to think that Afroakuma is right about this. If you would like a thread where evil ponies from hell, death pizzas and the like are possible, feel free to start one. Please do not hand an extremely talented homebrewer a brief for a pony villain that stipulates that it must be entirely mundane. And especially not in a thread intended for voting up a serious villain for use in a campaign.

Only completely new creatures - Unique options - actually permit the kind of creative freedom that is necessary for this thread to work. It is not possible by rules as written to change an existing animal by anything more than hit dice, size or a custom template and still remain within the parameters of the exercise.

As far as I can tell, Afroakuma will go through with this no matter where it ends up. Please don't have it end up with Flash the 14 hit dice wonder pony.

I'm sorry to put such a blatant argument in favour of a particular option here, but I'm beginning to worry that Afroakuma might be right about a pretty large portion of the voters not taking this seriously.


:D Perhaps. But, let's just all calm down and see how this goes.

I'm hoping this goes well, but I don't really see any obvious way to pull something awesome here.

[stolenchariot]

arctic fox definitely.

[MammonAzrael]

Rat! Vengeance for all the slaughtered rats because of level 1 basement exterminators!

[Alteran]

Pony, definitely.

[LordZarth]

I will agree that an Animal isn't the best base or 'roll' for a truly epic villain, but I think because of its weirdness factor it could be a very solid one.

Also, I am indeed taking this seriously. I would like to use this in a campaign. I think that pony could well be a fulfilling AND hilarious option.

However, I would like to make this easy or nice for Afro. I know (now) that you didn't like our Animal vote, but if you wish me to, I will switch to a Unique animal, Afroakuma.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to point out that Mundane ≠ Boring, nor does Funny = Bad Villain. Obviously funny or silly musn't be allowed to get ridiculous (in most campaigns), but this is entirely a matter of presentation. An evil scheming hell-pony could turn out to be stupid and ridiculous, OR it could, if provided with emotions, motivations, and a good fleshing-out, be a great villain (if humourous).

[lesser_minion]

However, I would like to make this easy or nice for Afro. I know (now) that you didn't like our Animal vote, but if you wish me to, I will switch to a Unique animal, Afroakuma.

I know this isn't actually addressed to me but your vote is still your decision, and I think Afroakuma will agree with that. This isn't Be Told What To Vote For. If you think it is workable, there is nothing wrong with you sticking with it. I don't really see how it can be done without either going outside of the RAW or the parameters of the exercise. Equally, I'm not Afroakuma. He did say that he thought he could work with Animal when Lord Gareth pointed out how difficult it would be.

Normally, I would not have posted an argument like the one above, but I didn't feel that there was anything achievable with a pony and it looked like a pretty horrifying bandwagon had started.

I didn't mean for the post above to be directed entirely at you - I'm sorry if it seemed that way, and I've edited it so that it's a bit clearer.

[afroakuma]

Of course not. I don't control the votes. Do as you will, I'll just be screaming loudly about stabbing unrelated persons over here.


It is not possible by rules as written to change an existing animal by anything more than hit dice, size or a custom template and still remain within the parameters of the exercise.

Correction: I can't even increase the hit dice. Most animals have no advancement. I'll have to employ templates or class levels to alter the CR, and I am not applying class levels. There is absolutely no way to justify that.

[Llama231]

Remember everyone, as we have seen, the higher the CR, the generally the better, so...
Yes.:smallbiggrin:

[Reverent-One]

Well, if animal it must be, I say unique (Avian).

[lesser_minion]

Correction: I can't even increase the hit dice. Most animals have no advancement. I'll have to employ templates or class levels to alter the CR, and I am not applying class levels. There is absolutely no way to justify that.

I think you could probably go with "a druid's former animal companion". That might give you a few extra hit dice to hand out, as well as some bonus feats and natural armour bonuses. That might also go some way towards getting an Int 2 villain off the ground.

[LordZarth]

I think you could probably go with "a druid's former animal companion". That might give you a few extra hit dice to hand out, as well as some bonus feats and natural armour bonuses. That might also go some way towards getting an Int 2 villain off the ground.

A former animal companion of an Evil epic druid/devil. The Hellpony! CR 20!

...I'm sorry.

[lesser_minion]

A former animal companion of an Evil epic druid/devil. The Hellpony! CR 20!

...I'm sorry.

You have been scheduled for immediate termination. Please stand still, as bullets are expensive. Have a nice day!

The Computer Is Your Friend.

[The Tygre]

Ah, cheer up Afro. I think you're underestimating yourself. You'll pull something out of that massive, dynamic Homebrewing brain of yours! And if you can't believe in yourself, then believe in me who does believe in you!

More importantly, I think you're underestimating just what animals can do as villains. Consider the beast of Le Geuvudan. Chances are it was nothing more than a wolf, or possibly even several wolves, yet it still slaughtered several hundred people. And what if it wasn't? What if it was something more exotic, like a hyena or lioness, as in Brotherhood of the Wolf? The very matter of transplacing an exotic animal to a new location can make it a villain. Continuing with the Brotherhood of the Wolf analogy, what if it really was controlled by someone? Then, then you have what may very well have been the single largest case of mass murder in the history of the world. Nothing says the animal has to be the BBEG. It could just be a minion. Perhaps it's on a rampage or was just set loose. Maybe its just a pet/bodyguard. As I recall, Graz'zt is supposed to have a pet panther that's absurdly powerful for its species.

And on a final note, take some of these animal facts:
- Male walruses have been known to suck out the brains of baby seals through their noses.
- The European Olm can survive for up to twelve years without food, actually digesting its own organs.
- A species of soft-shell turtle can breathe through its rectum.
- Mega-mouth sharks spend most of their life swimming vertically.
- Gulper eels swallow their own jaws for the extra calcium after mating.

[Juhn]

Correction: I can't even increase the hit dice. Most animals have no advancement. I'll have to employ templates or class levels to alter the CR, and I am not applying class levels. There is absolutely no way to justify that.

So, your only option is templates? Don't tell me this is going to end up as some horrible template-stacking monstrosity if we give it a high enough CR.

Also, Tygre, I don't see the relevance of those facts, especially the last three. They don't really provide opportunities for villainy so much as straight-up weirdness.

[Thane of Fife]

Ape!

I would love to see a Conan-style villain.

[afroakuma]

More importantly, I think you're underestimating just what animals can do as villains. Consider the beast of Le Geuvudan. Chances are it was nothing more than a wolf, or possibly even several wolves, yet it still slaughtered several hundred people.

Because it was hungry, or fearful, or rabid, or let loose with a temper.

In a literary sense, it might be the antagonist, but it is no more a villain than a particularly horrific hurricane is a villain. It's instinctual, unthinking and unselecting. It's a hazard, not a villain.


Continuing with the Brotherhood of the Wolf analogy, what if it really was controlled by someone?

Then that someone is the villain.


Nothing says the animal has to be the BBEG.

Well, I do, but that's just my personal taste.

[afroakuma]

Just as good a time as any to make this announcement:

There will be no CR vote.

[Llama231]

:smalleek:
:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:

[afroakuma]

Far too much risk involved, and I don't feel comfortable setting a defined upper limit on CR for an animal. Not to mention that the design parameters would make many potential CRs impossible or unworkable.

On the bright side, you'll see the villain sooner.

[Lord_Gareth]

>.< I feel your pain, Afro. I feel it. I won't make a single Bladed Blob reference for a month, in honor of the difficulty the community is putting you through about this...abomination.

[afroakuma]

*sigh* It'll be the last time, at least.

And I do have a half-decent idea.

Of course, I have to survive the next two votes. :smallsigh:

[The Tygre]

You just can't let me cheer you up, can you? Well, think of it this way; now you know to never put animals on the list ever again. It might be cold comfort, but sometimes all you learn in defeat is that you have been defeated, to quote Jade Empire. Not that you've been defeated, ever. And to further quote Jade Empire, things aren't as bad as they seem! Really! Look, none of the buildings are on fire! Ah! See that! Something good! Right off the top of my head!

[thegurullamen]

You just can't let me cheer you up, can you? Well, think of it this way; now you know to never put animals on the list ever again. It might be cold comfort, but sometimes all you learn in defeat is that you have been defeated, to quote Jade Empire. Not that you've been defeated, ever. And to further quote Jade Empire, things aren't as bad as they seem! Really! Look, none of the buildings are on fire! Ah! See that! Something good! Right off the top of my head!

I find these quotes offensive. You often learn more through your failures and shortcomings than you do in your successes and things can always be worse than they seem.

And I'm glad there's no CR vote. I find it the most boring phase of the VUAV. It's just numbers.

[Juhn]

Of course, I have to survive the next two votes. :smallsigh:

Am I to take from this that VUAV X will be the last one? Say it ain't so, afro!

[afroakuma]

No, that would have been me referring to Alignment and Motivation.

[afroakuma]

At any rate, the votes are in and the winning species is Protest Against The Type Vote! :smalltongue:

also known as Unique (Bird).

So, now this avian adversary needs its Alignment.

[Reverent-One]

Neutral Evil

[LordZarth]

Lawful evil.

[Thane of Fife]

True Neutral

[thegurullamen]

Neutral Neutral

[The Tygre]

I find these quotes offensive. You often learn more through your failures and shortcomings than you do in your successes and things can always be worse than they seem.

I'm gonna' go ahead and assume that you didn't realize I was being glib or that you've never actually played Jade Empire, else wise you would realize that that was the FREAKING POINT OF THE QUOTES.

1.) You ALWAYS learn something in your shortcomings, even, EVEN if it is only that you came short. You didn't know you were going to fail when you started, but you do now. And through that, you learn to try not to again.

2.) Of course things could be worse; we could be arguing about Vermin. Which even I have to say sounds bad.


And I'm glad there's no CR vote. I find it the most boring phase of the VUAV. It's just numbers.

Agreed. And there's always annoying epic fan-boys pushing for a god-killer or some such. Which is all well and good every now and then, but not every frakkin' post.

True Neutral, possibly with some kind of disease like rabies, just to make it insane. I know it's a disorder and not part of the alignment, but I'm just trying to keep all doors open here. We haven't ruled out rabid roc terrorizing a coastal village yet...

[InsiderTrading]

Lawful evil

[Alteran]

I'm going to go easy on Afro here and say True Neutral.

[arguskos]

True Neutral, just so we can get this the hell over with. Let's move on to the only really interesting vote left us: Motivation.

[Gorgondantess]

Lawful Evil. C'mon, Tn is just... bleh.

[MageSparrowhawk]

hmmm...I'll go Neutral Evil, or true Neutral if it works better for the build

[MammonAzrael]

True Neutral. Good luck Afro.

[UnChosenOne]

I vote for True Neutral.

[Lord Mancow]

True Neutral, we have damaged Afro's mind enough already.

[vegetalss4]

EDIT: wait a minute i thougth that an INT of less than 2 would require that your alignment where true neutral:smallconfused:

[xanaphia]

Lawful Good but misguided.

[Mercenary Pen]

Chaotic Neutral

[Ovaltine Patrol]

Neutral Evil

[Pronounceable]

My first instinct here is LE. After something that actually involves brain, it seems to be better if we do not push Afro till the power shorts out. Then again, getting voted stupid and producing awesome is Afro's schtick.

LE it is.

[afroakuma]

EDIT: wait a minute i thougth that an INT of less than 2 would require that your alignment where true neutral:smallconfused:

There is a legit method per RAW of raising its Int scorce, which I will be using.

If its Intelligence was still less than 3, it couldn't be a villain.

[Mercenary Pen]

There is a legit method per RAW of raising its Int scorce, which I will be using.

If its Intelligence was still less than 3, it couldn't be a villain.

I assume you've found a template that boosts INT without changing creature type then, or something very similar. As a 4e specialist, I can't say what that might be, but I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Juhn]

No, that would have been me referring to Alignment and Motivation.

Ah, good to know. You keep mentioning something big for VUAV X in this thread, though, so I was thinking the wrong thing.

Also, Lawful Neutral. It doesn't make much sense, but hey I've been pushing for it and it would be stupid on the Nightwalker I'm hoping to see next time.

[Magnor Criol]

Neutral Evil.

(Because I'm still of the opinion villain = evil.)

[afroakuma]

I assume you've found a template that boosts INT without changing creature type then, or something very similar. As a 4e specialist, I can't say what that might be, but I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Not anything even close to that good.

No, there are severe limitations on what can be done to smarten up an animal.

[Lord_Gareth]

Hey, folks - for those of you voting true nuetral to try and 'save Afro's mind', you may be forgetting that this villain is INTELLIGENT. True nuetral is the 'I don't give a damn' alignment, and thus it would be harder to justify villainous behavior from such a being.

That said, Lawful Evil.

[Thane of Fife]

Not anything even close to that good.

No, there are severe limitations on what can be done to smarten up an animal.

Magic items?

Soaraway bird grown horribly intelligent due to stray Headband of Intellect could be intriguing.


Hey, folks - for those of you voting true nuetral to try and 'save Afro's mind', you may be forgetting that this villain is INTELLIGENT. True nuetral is the 'I don't give a damn' alignment, and thus it would be harder to justify villainous behavior from such a being.

1. Lots of True Neutral votes came before the 'intelligence design' revelation.

2. There are unintelligent, true neutral villainous animals in fiction - the best one that comes to mind at the moment being Kerchak, of Tarzan.

[afroakuma]

Tarzan would not be the best source to derive examples from.

And as far as I can tell, there are no Intelligence-increasing templates that can be added to animals that will not change their creature type. If anyone knows of one, then by all means...

[Lord_Gareth]

1. The intelligence reveal happened WAY before the alignment vote.

2. How many times do Afro and I have to say it - IF IT'S NOT INTELLIGENT, IT ISN'T A VILLAIN. Wait for it - wait for it - it's JUST AN ANTAGONIST. Is a hurricane a villain? How about the meteor from Armageddon? No? Good. Villainy requires sentience. Furthermore, a villain does not always have to be the antagonist - for example, Dexter (of the series of the same name) is a villain. Just about everyone in Warhammer 40k is a villain. Lucifer in I, Lucifer is a villain. Cujo? Not a villain. Kerchek? Not a villain. The other dogs in the fighting arena (in White Fang by Jack London)? Not villains.

[puppyavenger]

Lawful Evil because really, we need an evil one.

[lesser_minion]

Hey, folks - for those of you voting true neutral to try and 'save Afro's mind', you may be forgetting that this villain is INTELLIGENT. True neutral is the 'I don't give a damn' alignment, and thus it would be harder to justify villainous behavior from such a being.

That's a tricky argument - True Neutral in 3.X can also mean "can't be asked to write anything else on this character sheet". Villainy is all about motivation, and a True Neutral character is not completely without that. You can still get something of a compelling villain out of a neutral alignment, and most of the motivations are available to a true neutral creature. Any other alignment risks some astronomical nightmare like "Lawful Evil and motivated by the Greater Good". Afro may be good, but I think that's not exactly the kind of mindscrew we need at the moment.

However, I think all I can really say here is that N is better than Flash the Wonder Pony. I don't really like the idea of a Neutral villain, and even if it is motivated, it still has to be committed. In my book, Neutral varies between "wants to save the world but can't really be bothered" and "would take over the world but is actually pretty content and so doesn't bother enacting some villainous scheme". A Villain has to be the kind of person who slaughters all of the cats in a village so he can watch their expressions as they die.

I think I'm going to vote Lawful Evil, just because the other alignments don't seem to be that likely to beat Neutral, and Neutral is not something I'd like to see.

The motivation had better not contradict the final alignment though.

[Thane of Fife]

1. The intelligence reveal happened WAY before the alignment vote.

I guess I missed it, then.


2. How many times do Afro and I have to say it - IF IT'S NOT INTELLIGENT, IT ISN'T A VILLAIN. Wait for it - wait for it - it's JUST AN ANTAGONIST. Is a hurricane a villain? How about the meteor from Armageddon? No? Good. Villainy requires sentience. Furthermore, a villain does not always have to be the antagonist - for example, Dexter (of the series of the same name) is a villain. Just about everyone in Warhammer 40k is a villain. Lucifer in I, Lucifer is a villain. Cujo? Not a villain. Kerchek? Not a villain. The other dogs in the fighting arena (in White Fang by Jack London)? Not villains.

Unintelligent was a poor choice of words. I would argue, though, that in D&D, and in much of the literature it's based upon, animal intelligence is sufficient that it could be villainous. Moles have to be smart enough for gnomes to be able to talk to them, after all. Indeed, animals intelligent to lead attacks and form rudimentary plans are a staple of fantasy literature. As such, I would argue that a character like Kerchak is a villain - he intentionally causes trouble for Tarzan, he attacks out of both general maliciousness and a sort of animalistic reason.

[vegetalss4]

i vote for lawful evil

would the way to gain an animal with an INT higher than 2 being with INT boosting magic items?
or would it be with a constantly wild shaped druid? (for example a cursed one)
or maybe some thing completely different?

[lesser_minion]

Ooooh... Polymorph cheese. This is actually starting to pick up a bit.

[The Neoclassic]

True Neutral

[Lord_Gareth]

Wild Shape wouldn't work - if you read the ability, the druid retains his/her own, natural Type, even while shifted.

@Thane - That's the thing, though; those animals are extremely exceptional, and oftentimes wouldn't exist in the real world. Kerchek happens to belong to one of the most intelligent species outside of humans on the planet. In D&D, though, the Animal type strongly, STRONGLY implies that the creature is not villainous - indeed, the automatic true nuetral is given because the creature CANNOT UNDERSTAND MORALITY. A non-sentient animal cannot make a villain - a memorable antagonist, or perhaps a monster, but not a true villain.

[afroakuma]

I can think of only two stunts that I can pull to give this thing an Intelligence. One of them is interesting but difficult; the other is lame but easy.

[Lord_Gareth]

Headband of Intellect +6, five wishes, and Vow of Poverty?

That'd require a good animal, though...

[thegurullamen]

It occurs to me that you can create a villain without a high intelligence. Consider the movie zombies, the ones who spread their ailment unlike D&D's somewhat boring walking dead guys. There's always an originating zombie who's usually lost when the zombipocolypse begins. Consider though if only the originating zombie could spread zombieism and the rest of the newly animated dead could only spread diseases they collected while roaming and feasting on a disgusting human smorgasbord.

There. You'd have a stupid villain in need of stopping as it poses a continual threat wherever it goes. As 28 Days Later shows us, an animal could easily fill the role.

[Thane of Fife]

I can think of only two stunts that I can pull to give this thing an Intelligence. One of them is interesting but difficult; the other is lame but easy.

I have to say that I think that magic items would be interesting but easy. After all, talk about a villain with an Achilles Heel!


@Thane - That's the thing, though; those animals are extremely exceptional, and oftentimes wouldn't exist in the real world. Kerchek happens to belong to one of the most intelligent species outside of humans on the planet. In D&D, though, the Animal type strongly, STRONGLY implies that the creature is not villainous - indeed, the automatic true nuetral is given because the creature CANNOT UNDERSTAND MORALITY. A non-sentient animal cannot make a villain - a memorable antagonist, or perhaps a monster, but not a true villain.

Right, but this isn't the real world, and there's no reason that this animal can't be equally exceptional, or belong to one of the most intelligent species in the world (outside of the assortment of humanoids). And does a villain need to understand morality to be villainous? What about that death star thingy afroakuma did a while back - wasn't it a golem programmed to slaughter people? Or something like that?

[Lord_Gareth]

@Gurull - You're talking about "Patient Zero," who is STILL an antagonist/monster. See below.

@Fife - The SILVER HELLSTAR (capitals necessary) was a construct, yes, but it was quite aware of what it was doing. It hated itself - it was caught between obeying its Baatezu masters and damning entire worlds, or sparing them and letting them be consumed by the Tanar'ri. It compromised by sending armies to slaughter all of the good-aligned beings so that they could go to their proper afterlives, and THEN it consumed the world - the lesser of three evils, as it were. It was nuetral good.

Like I said before, villain =/= antagonist, and villain =/= monster. A villain is a being who, through their own free will, commits horrendous acts. The villain knows that what it is doing is horrible - or that others would consider it horrible - and each justifies its actions in some way. A villain is a fully fleshed-out character, with wants, needs, loves, hates, pet peeves and little quirks. They don't have to be epic in scope, but each villain has their own distinct style, and the very best have that intangible class to them, a sort of panache that marks them as great. Examples of great (to me) villains include The Lilum, of Stardust fame, the White Witch (Narnia), Homeland Security (Little Brother), Jean-Claude Frollo (The Hunchback of Notre Dame) and Messirs Vandemar and Croup, of Neverwhere.

An antagonist, on the other hand, is merely the person who opposes the protagonist. And a monster is an antagonist along the lines of Cujo, zombie hordes, or the Hydra of Greek legend - something undeniably negative, but without the class or true choice that marks a villain.

[thegurullamen]

Like I said before, villain =/= antagonist, and villain =/= monster. A villain is a being who, through their own free will, commits horrendous acts.

This is an overly restrictive definition. While I can understand why you'd prefer to use it (villains of this variety are almost always more interesting than the alternative,) the functional definition of a villain is "A dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero."

The point of this contest (or whatever we're calling these VUAs) is to produce a creature that can act as a focal point for a campaign or at least a mini-plot arc. Simple antagonists (if well done) including your definition of monsters an easily fill this role and with the kind of fluff afro's known to fill in, can be quite unique and all around brilliant. Restricting yourself to an intelligent villain is just needlessly limiting and in a contest like this it can hurt the final product.

[Lord_Gareth]

1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2. a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.

Your definition falls under antagonist, which, and I shall quote again, is the following -


1. a person who is opposed to, struggles against, or competes with another; opponent; adversary.
2. the adversary of the hero or protagonist of a drama or other literary work: Iago is the antagonist of Othello.

Perhaps most importantly to my argument, Afro has YET to make an unintelligent villain, and his words through this thread indicate, to me, that he agrees with my stance on villains being intelligent (Afro, please inform me if you do not). Furthermore, how the bloody hell can restricting a villain to being an intelligent being with motives and personality - remember that MOTIVATION is a vote here - be harmful to the final product? The only Type that requires nonsentience is Animal, and Afro's striking it after this is over.

[Thane of Fife]

Furthermore, how the bloody hell can restricting a villain to being an intelligent being with motives and personality - remember that MOTIVATION is a vote here - be harmful to the final product?

My point is that animals can have motives and personalities - Sinbad's City of the Apes is plagued by creatures motivated by hunger, Kong is somewhat driven by lust, Kerchak by hatred and jealousy. Sure, these are all apes, but one could easily substitute in an elephant, wolf, whale, cat, or other intelligent animal.

One can easily imagine an animal driven by curiosity, insanity (rabies, perhaps?), love, rage, and so on.

[Ricky S]

Animal!!! Woo Chaotic Evil (woo Stupid Evil)

[watsyurname529]

I'll go with Neutral Evil. If it's going to be an animal villian, it might as well be evil.

EDIT: I really dont want it to be Neutral, so I'm changing my vote to Lawful Evil. It's still going to be evil.

[Shades of Gray]

Lawful Evil for me.

[afroakuma]

My point is that animals can have motives and personalities - Sinbad's City of the Apes is plagued by creatures motivated by hunger

Base hunger as an instinct does not a villain make. Being an instinct, it barely qualifies as a motive.


Kong is somewhat driven by lust

Fidelity and familiarity. Doglike intelligence. If Kong were actually driven by the beauty of the girl, he'd be a magical beast. Again, not a villain.


Kerchak by hatred and jealousy.

Kerchak's Intelligence was demonstrably greater than 2.

Sure, these are all apes, but one could easily substitute in an elephant, wolf, whale, cat, or other intelligent animal.


One can easily imagine an animal driven by curiosity

Not for long enough to be a villain.


insanity (rabies, perhaps?)

For the remainder of its short, short life, it would be a vicious, infectious, mindless force of nature. Not a villain.


love

Hardly villainous. "You are near my child, I am a thing of instinct, and off we go!"


rage

Animals don't have the intellectual capacity to retain this mentality for long.

[Llama231]

Lawful Good

An villainous BBEG bird animal that's LAWFUL GOOD!:smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

It's your kind what cause unrest. :smallannoyed:

[arguskos]

It's your kind what cause unrest. :smallannoyed:
Dude, it'll be alright. Here, do you want a friendly hug? Cause, I give damn good hugs. :smallwink:

[Thane of Fife]

Base hunger as an instinct does not a villain make. Being an instinct, it barely qualifies as a motive.

:smallconfused: Hunger's been on every one of your lists of motives.... Gluttony's kind of an odd motive, so I assumed that it meant a base hunger....


Kerchak's Intelligence was demonstrably greater than 2.

I don't know that I'd agree. Certainly, he's smarter than an ape actually is in all likelihood, but how does that stat out? He certainly never struck me as that much brighter than the other apes. But anyway, this is sort of my point - remember that fictional animals tend to much smarter than real ones (in human-like ways, anyway). As I mentioned earlier, remember that these Int 1 or 2 animals are smart enough to converse with, so long as one possesses a way to speak with them.


Not for long enough to be a villain.

You may be right on this one.


For the remainder of its short, short life, it would be a vicious, infectious, mindless force of nature. Not a villain.

It doesn't have to be rabies - this is a fantasy world, there's plenty of scope for crazy non-lethal madness-inducing diseases:


Dweomer-Madness

Not all magical writings are created equally; some use quality components, some are much more cheaply made. When the ink runs off of such arcane writings, and especially when it comes from scribed enchantment spells, it may contaminate water it comes into contact with. Such water remains contaminated for 1d10 days. Any creature drinking from tainted water must pass a DC 10 fortitude save or become Dweomer-Maddened.

A Dweomer-Maddened creature is driven into a frenzy due to the pain caused by the diluted magic. In its agony it will attempt to savage any creature it happens across - if it possesses at least an Intelligence of 3, it may attempt a DC 20 Will Save to avoid attacking.

While Dweomer-Maddened, the creature gains a +2 Morale bonus to both Strength and Constitution. If targeted by a spell, the interaction between the magic and the madness will be so painful as to immediately send the creature into a rage, giving it a further +4 to Strength and Constitution, and a -2 to AC (once enraged, the creature remains as such until the combat ends). Furthermore, the maddened creature gains an inflated sense of its own power, and is more likely to return to places where it has been mistreated in the past.

The bite of a Dweomer-Maddened creature is contagious, and any other creature bitten must pass a DC 8 Fortitude save or contract the madness within 24 hours.

As an example.



Hardly villainous. "You are near my child, I am a thing of instinct, and off we go!"

I'd been thinking of something more along the lines of a Godzilla-style baby-retrieval kind of thing.

[afroakuma]

Lawful Good

An villainous BBEG bird animal that's LAWFUL GOOD!:smallbiggrin:

It's your kind what cause unrest. :smallannoyed:

- Astérix, le Romain avec qui tu as été très aimable, est très aimable avec moi. Est-ce que je peux être très aimable avec lui?

- Bien sûr!

- Lêve un peu la tête, Romain, s'il te plait, que je puisse être vraiment très aimable! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XJtrasDNAI&feature=related)

(around 5:28... even non-French speakers will get where I'm going.)

[afroakuma]

:smallconfused: Hunger's been on every one of your lists of motives.... Gluttony's kind of an odd motive, so I assumed that it meant a base hunger....

Not at all. We've actually had a Hunger-motivated villain - the Augmoha, which laid plans to ensure itself both a decently stocked larder and a cruelly macabre steady supply of its favorite food. It wasn't a mindless eating machine, it was a creeptastic gourmet with a taste for the ultimate in squeamish nourishment, with a garnish of bait to find fresh prey.


But anyway, this is sort of my point - remember that fictional animals tend to much smarter than real ones (in human-like ways, anyway). As I mentioned earlier, remember that these Int 1 or 2 animals are smart enough to converse with, so long as one possesses a way to speak with them.

So are some regular animals, but they still have an Intelligence incapable of villainy. Although from what I've read of dolphins, I'd argue that they might...


I'd been thinking of something more along the lines of a Godzilla-style baby-retrieval kind of thing.

*shrug* Still a primal instinct.

[Limos]

Really, the Animals only get Int of 2 isn't too accurate anymore. There are some damn smart animals out there.

I know of at least one bird that will take bits of food and use it as bait to catch fish. And of course the Chimpanzee that makes fishing spears. Dolphins use sponges to protect their noses and have learned how to gut and clean cuttlefish before eating them. Koko the Gorilla enjoys painting.

Animals are smarter than we give them credit for.

[Juhn]

But this is DnD, where the Animal Type (which is what was voted for) has a clearly defined intelligence limit. It may not be accurate, but a lot of stuff isn't in DnD.

[afroakuma]

Really, the Animals only get Int of 2 isn't too accurate anymore. There are some damn smart animals out there.

Within severe limits. Most human three-year olds are smarter than the smartest animals.


Dolphins use sponges to protect their noses and have learned how to gut and clean cuttlefish before eating them.

I was referring to the fact that some dolphins commit murder for pleasure.

[Thane of Fife]

Really, the Animals only get Int of 2 isn't too accurate anymore. There are some damn smart animals out there.

But this is DnD, where the Animal Type (which is what was voted for) has a clearly defined intelligence limit. It may not be accurate, but a lot of stuff isn't in DnD.

Actually, earlier editions gave many animals intelligence scores of 2-4 or even better. Dolphins actually had a higher average intelligence than humans!


We've actually had a Hunger-motivated villain - the Augmoha, which laid plans to ensure itself both a decently stocked larder and a cruelly macabre steady supply of its favorite food. It wasn't a mindless eating machine, it was a creeptastic gourmet with a taste for the ultimate in squeamish nourishment, with a garnish of bait to find fresh prey.

I'm going to have to go back and look at some more of these sometime.


*shrug* Still a primal instinct.

But what is it that makes primal instinct wrong?

Compare an orc priest who leads his tribe to glorious war, slaughtering all non-orcs as inferior creatures, to a rogue bull elephant that roams a large area, constantly killing and destroying out of a need to prove its superiority. What makes the first one an acceptable vilain but not the second? They both have similar motives, they both perform similar acts of destruction.

[Lord_Gareth]

The elephant is running off of PURE INSTINCT. It's marking its territory, and is no more malevolent than a harsh storm or a child throwing a temper tantrum. The orc is a sentient being acting off of complex motivation; it CHOSE to cause chaos and devastation, it CHOSE to lead its people to war. The key difference is, AS WE KEEP TELLING YOU, intelligence - REASONING, not RESULTS. It doesn't matter WHAT happened, what matters is WHY.

[Llama231]

It's your kind what cause unrest. :smallannoyed:

Is this...bad?

[afroakuma]

But what is it that makes primal instinct wrong?

It's that there's no intent, no character, no uniqueness. It's just a simple read: mama bears will protect their cubs. Roosters will try to kill other roosters.


Compare an orc priest who leads his tribe to glorious war, slaughtering all non-orcs as inferior creatures, to a rogue bull elephant that roams a large area, constantly killing and destroying out of a need to prove its superiority. What makes the first one an acceptable vilain but not the second? They both have similar motives, they both perform similar acts of destruction.

Similar in appearance, but not in intent. The bull elephant needs to prove itself the strongest, most dominant creature in the area, based on a primal fear or the need to impress a mate, or simple belligerence.

There's no planning, no goal, no end motive, unless getting a mate counts.

The orc priest slaughters non-orcs because he has declared them to be inferior. To this end, he leads a tribe, encouraging them to follow his beliefs. He has weapons, he has an understanding of his forces, he wields fear and morale, and he has a goal.


Is this...bad?

If you'd watched the accompanying video clip from the time I posted, you'd know. :smallamused:

[evil-frosty]

I am going to need to long at past contests, i have yet to see the Hellstar. And i feel like i should point out dogs in animal intelligence. Some dogs are insanely smart. Like Labs and German Sheperds. Also in the fox and the hound (my favorite childhood movie) all of the animals are intelligent to some degree. And Chief is obviously the bad guy or villain. And why do we have to do as the book says its your villain give it what you want.

[afroakuma]

I am going to need to long at past contests, i have yet to see the Hellstar. And i feel like i should point out dogs in animal intelligence. Some dogs are insanely smart. Like Labs and German Sheperds. Also in the fox and the hound (my favorite childhood movie) all of the animals are intelligent to some degree. And Chief is obviously the bad guy or villain. And why do we have to do as the book says its your villain give it what you want.

Because not following the type rules essentially invalidates the type vote. It would be like you voting for Dragon and me presenting you with a dracolich.

[Thane of Fife]

Very well. I don't think that I'm going to convince you, and I don't think that you're going to convince me, so I'll leave it here.


Because not following the type rules essentially invalidates the type vote. It would be like you voting for Dragon and me presenting you with a dracolich.

I must say that that wouldn't upset me at all. In all honesty, I think that that would almost be a better way to do it (a dracolich has much more in common with a dragon than with a ghost).


If I could bug you, afroakuma, I'm curious - which of the villains that you've made is your favorite?

[watsyurname529]

See... All these problems would be solved if we had picked Undead!

[afroakuma]

Very well. I don't think that I'm going to convince you, and I don't think that you're going to convince me, so I'll leave it here.

Very well.


I must say that that wouldn't upset me at all. In all honesty, I think that that would almost be a better way to do it (a dracolich has much more in common with a dragon than with a ghost).

Except for the type properties. But perhaps that was a poor example. Perhaps more like if you voted Giant and I presented you with an aberration.


If I could bug you, afroakuma, I'm curious - which of the villains that you've made is your favorite?

I think this is the part where I'm supposed to say "Hellstar."

To be honest, though, they each have something great to them. I could narrow it to Dandag and the Maiden's Weeping, but ultimately I'll take the Maiden's Weeping by a slight edge.

[ivendale]

what i always look for in a villain is what i could do to make the players tick.
it is incredibly hilarious to watch your PCs jump up and down with rage after their fighter has just decided to take a bath in a pool of contact poison after failing to save against the big Bad's suggestion spell. my favorite boss fight only works if you have someone of a neutral or evil alignment, you, the DM, take them aside and promise them gold and riches if they slay their companions, claiming that the fellow adventurers are plotting against you and that if the player doesn't act first, they will. if the PC refuses your offer try the same on the other players until one breaks, in this way the adventurers are their own boss.

[afroakuma]

Well, that was a close vote. The result: Lawful Evil!

Lastly, this odious ornithine obstacle needs its Primary Motivation!

[Reverent-One]

Self-loathing....?

[Gorgondantess]

Oh. Oooh. Self Loathing. This is bound to, if nothing else, be very interesting.

[afroakuma]

*facepalms* aaaand we're off to a brilliant start.

[UnChosenOne]

For the Greater Good.

[Reverent-One]

>_>

<_<

It's not intentional. I thought it made some sense. I mean, I have no idea what you were coming up with, but if this is an animal intelligent enough to be a villian, it would make sense that it is aware of what it is. Thus prompting self-loathing. At least it made sense to me at a bit past midnight after a long day.

[afroakuma]

Now, is the Self-Loathing for the villain, or for me? Because I am definitely up there right now.

[Mortimer]

For a LE villain, the Greater Good seems a decent motivation.

[Limos]

If I could I would vote for He's pretty much just a ****

But since that isn't on the board I'll go with Greater Good

[MageSparrowhawk]

as a vote to try to make this a little easier, I'm going with Malevolence

[arguskos]

I like Malevolence myself. Seems like it's interesting.

[lesser_minion]

Well, I think the odious ornithine obstacle would object to being called that, but... actually this is pretty tricky.

I'll go with malevolence - that could actually be pretty creepy.

[SurvivorX]

I'll go with Logic. Just because I can't for the life of me imagine how a lawful evil bird thing is even remotely logical.

[Mercenary Pen]

Malevolence please.

[Pronounceable]

I like the sound of malevolence, and there's always something sinister with birds. Besides, if the end result is anything remotely like a duck, we can call it the malevolent mallard.

[arguskos]

So, was anyone else channeling Hitchcock there for a second? :smallwink:

[Lord Mancow]

Malevolence for the evil bird of doom!

[Debihuman]

Malevolence is always a good motivation for a villain.

Debby