The Megaspoiler [SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER]

[Arachu]

I've noticed something terrible. Something that I shall now convey. Don't read onward if you enjoy surprises, because this'll be an awesome one as the comic may well be written.

I've noticed that a lot of people looked at the oracle prophecy, read that Belkar would kill/killed Miko, and said "No, he didn't kill her, he didn't stab her".

Meanwhile, I thought "Wait, the oracle doesn't lie, he bends the truth. So, how did Belkar kill Miko?".

Recall the trial. You know, the trial, at Azure City, "You are guilty of weakening the fabric of the universe", Mr. Scruffy was there?

Now, recall what Belkar was doing during said trial. He was busy murdering a guard, and then he was preoccupied with mind-killing Miko.

Now, remember when Miko threw Belkar in through the window, and they landed in the throne room (you know, Shojo's throne room, where the trial was?).

Remember how Miko was willing to kill Belkar, but it took Vaarsuvius' intervention to stop her?

Now, remember how shortly before Miko killed Shojo and lost her powers, that Roy, Belkar, and Shojo were talking to each other about how Shojo was fooling the paladins.

Figured it out yet?...

Recall Miko's little stay in the cage, when Zykon convinced her that the Order of the Stick was, in fact, allied with him. Remember how she was so sure that they were evil?

Now, back to Roy's/Belkar's/Shojo's conversation. Remember how both Miko and Shojo overheard it. Remember that, while Miko was busy having a mindfart, she mentioned that Shojo asked Belkar if he agreed with his methods.

Meaning that she hated Belkar especially. Which can be justified by the fact that she was like, one free action away from killing him.

She now saw the Order as evil, and Shojo allied with their 'evil'.

AND THEN SHE KILLED SHOJO. And lost her paladin abilities.

As a result of this, she ended up in the prison tower, which got hit with something big enough to crack a bar in her cell.

She then went over to the throne room, and broke the gate-In their time of victory.

And then she got sliced in half.

If Belkar caused her death, then he caused her to break the gate.

He caused her to kill Shojo.

He killed Miko (and her horse) in exactly the same path in which he killed Shojo, Azure City, and at some point that is more or less unrelated, Roy.

Don't misunderstand me; I love the little homocidist. He's effing awesome. He was like, my favorite character from like the third or fourth strip.

But he destroyed Azure City.


By the way, I totally posted all of this so I can say "I told you so" when he figures it out. :smalltongue:

But yeah... Ouch...

[B. Dandelion]

Welcome back, Marty, it's just not 1985 without you.

Huh? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

[Llama231]

Huh.

The Miko part is old, but Belkar causing the loss of the city...

That's new.:smallamused:

[Milcho]

That's one big giant cause and effect statement, and I don't agree that just because B follows A, that A caused B.

I'm not a big fan of the Oracle (in fact, I've gone as far as to say he's just really good at guessing the future, and has no powers), so I'm perfectly willing to say that he was wrong. Which I am. The Oracle was wrong.

Your entire cause and effect statement hangs on two things:
1. The definition of "killed" which you choose to interpret rather vaguely. I think Belkar didn't kill anyone, he may have driven Miko crazier and crazier, but ultimately, its her damn fault she was a stuck up b*tch and thought she could do no wrong. i.e. She caused her own death, and I enjoyed that.

2. The degree to which Belkar influenced her. I don't think it was only Belkar's fault that she thought the team was evil. Come on, you said it yourself, Xykon made her think they were evil, V stopped her from killing him, and Roy attacked her. You think that without Belkar's influence she wouldn't have come to the same idiotic conclusion that she came to? I think she was just, again, self-centered and thought of herself as "holier than thou".

At best, Belkar contributed to her death a little.
And, lets say for a moment that the Oracle did indeed forsee that (hypothetically). So he chose to word that entire episode as "kill Miko". That's some roundabout thinking which would lead me to believe that his predictions are useless (if I believed he could forsee at all).
So, at worst, Belkar contributed to her death a little, AND the Oracle's predictions are worth nothing.

[Haven]

While normally I don't approve of citing tropes in lieu of conversation...

this is really the only appropriate response (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle8px80d2wm3pd) to the tone of this post (and the topic name for that matter).

That said: even if you accept the Oracle's chain of causation--and Belkar, in stabbing him, shows you don't have to--Redcloak was bent on destroying Azure City before Belkar was even born, and the way things played out with him becoming allied with Xykon, gaining a massive hobgoblin army etc. didn't even have the flimsy causal link that the Oracle gave to his killing of Roy.

And even if you say that there was a causal link from Belkar to the destruction of the city, that's still a far cry from "destroyed Azure City." He may have "caused the death of" Roy, but it's a much further stretch to say that counts as killing Roy.

[Arachu]

Ah crap, I forgot about that strip :smallredface:

But still, he did kill Shojo through Miko, whether or not I remembered the Oracle stating it. Which I didn't.

And, he did totally kill Azure City, and ultimately got the Order stuck in their current 3+ predicaments.

Though admittedly I do feel quite diminished after rereading that strip...

Meh, it made me feel clever :smallsigh:

EDIT: Remember that Soon was within a shadow of producing both a dead Zykon and a dead Redcloak. You can't say they destroyed it, though they had quite a bit to do with -Miko's insanity-.

Also, I'm not saying "because Belkar killed Miko, he killed Shojo" I'm saying "Belkar caused Miko to kill Shojo". In addition, I also didn't say "Belkar killed Miko, and so destroyed Azure City". I'm pointing out that the castle was blown up-by Miko-and Belkar caused her to be there-and that stark raving mad.

Therefore, what I am saying is that "If Belkar caused the death of Miko, then he had to have had something to do with her breaking the gate, meaning that he drove her insane, meaning that he also killed Shojo indirectly through Miko" because Miko, crazy-*** or not, probably would have been on the battlefield. Or maybe she would have killed someone anyway. I can't be sure, but for the prediction to be true, he had to have caused that.

P.S. I don't much like the oracle either. But he never lies. He just never tells the truth...

And no, I don't mean "he never lies, but he always lies", I mean "he never tells the complete truth". I'll just perish that though now, before someone quotes me:smallamused:

Okay, fine, maybe I'm trying to recover some 'clever-feeling' now, but you know I'm right... Or well, I'm sure someone does :smallyuk:

[Optimystik]

That's nothing. Get this: The Elan that leaves Cliffport with the party isn't really Elan.

You heard it here first!

[chiasaur11]

That's nothing. Get this: The Elan that leaves Cliffport with the party isn't really Elan.

You heard it here first!

Wait.

Where does the Leprechaun suit fit into this?

[Arachu]

Laugh if you want to. No, really, it's making me laugh too...

I forgot that single conversation bubble when the oracle mentioned this fact. No really, I am that bad. I've forgotten my own conversations before.

Also, at the time that I read the strip, (which, admittedly, I only read once) it was hard-wired into my brain (probably by all of you...) to completely and utterly distrust the oracle. So, there, I point my finger at... Somebody... Because, I don't know, they tricked me into forgetting. I even forgot the 'causing V's death' thing until I reread the strip. Because I didn't even take his almost-truths into consideration...

Hey, though, as Llama mentioned, "Belkar causing the loss of the city" is new. So, that bit is still valid...

Besides, they said that Elan thing like fifty times :smalltongue:

As for the tone/title? That was, in fact, to make it sound dramatic. I even noticed that back then. Got your attention :smallamused:

[Arachu]

Laugh if you want to. No, really, it's making me laugh too...

I forgot that single conversation bubble when the oracle mentioned this fact. No really, I am that bad. I've forgotten my own conversations before.

Also, at the time that I read the strip, (which, admittedly, I only read once) it was hard-wired into my brain (probably by all of you...) to completely and utterly distrust the oracle. So, there, I point my finger at... Somebody... Because, I don't know, they tricked me into forgetting. I even forgot the 'causing V's death' thing until I reread the strip. Because I didn't even take his almost-truths into consideration...

Hey, though, as Llama mentioned, "Belkar causing the loss of the city" is new. So, that bit is still valid...

Besides, they said that Elan thing like fifty times :smalltongue:

As for the tone/title? That was, in fact, to make it sound dramatic. I even noticed that back then. Got your attention :smallamused:

[Warren Dew]

Nice theory.

Unfortunately, it's incorrect for the same reason that the theory that Miko caused the loss of the city to be incorrect: the hobgoblin army had already won by then.

[Nimrod's Son]

Therefore, what I am saying is that "If Belkar caused the death of Miko...
...Gonna have to stop you there. It's quite explicitly stated that Belkar didn't kill Miko, or even "cause" her death. Belkar asked if he "caused the death" of either Roy, Miko, Windstriker, Vaarsuvius, or the Oracle. The Oracle tried to convince Belkar that he had caused the death of each one of the former in order to try and spare his own life. And, under the Oracle's own admission, those theories were weak at best.

Belkar killed the Oracle. That is the beginning and end of the answer to Belkar's question. Whether or not Belkar contributed to Shojo's death or the fall of Azure City is completely irrelevant to anything the Oracle has ever said.


I forgot that single conversation bubble when the oracle mentioned this fact. No really, I am that bad. I've forgotten my own conversations before.
Then perhaps that's something to bear in mind before you go all "I told you so" in front of a dedicated fan community who pay unbelievably close detail to every last thing that is said, done or even glimpsed in the background of every last frame of every strip in this comic. I don't mean to be rude, but if your theory was even a fraction as revolutionary as you made out it was in your first post, someone else would have already mentioned it long ago.

[Thant]

Why are we even still mentioning Miko?!? She should be dead and buried in pieces, safely stored away from us playgrounders ~160+ strips under (the current plot). The more we refer to her, the greater chance she will come back :smallyuk:

[EyethatBinds]

These theories are just masks for the truth: The entire events within the comics are caused by a continuing audience! Belkar isn't the cause of Miko or Roy's deaths, we are!

[Raging Gene Ray]

By that logic, everybody who ever interacted with Shojo or with anybody who would later interact with Shojo was responsible for the loss of Azure City.

Especially Shojo himself. As leader of the Sapphire Guard, it was his job to keep Miko from acting stupid.


The more we refer to her, the greater chance she will come back :smallyuk:

Calm down. The Giant wouldn't let the clamoring of the masses change the story at this point. Unless he's already decided to bring her back, none of us will convince him to. And if he's already decided not to, none of us can convince him to do so either.

[factotum]

I'm not a big fan of the Oracle (in fact, I've gone as far as to say he's just really good at guessing the future, and has no powers), so I'm perfectly willing to say that he was wrong. Which I am. The Oracle was wrong.


Two points here:

a) The Oracle wasn't wrong--Belkar killed him, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

b) Are you reading the same comic as everyone else? You seriously believe that this Oracle, the person you believe can't actually foresee the future, nonetheless managed to guess it closely enough that he could arrange for a pair of lizardmen to teleport in within minutes of his death in order to resurrect him? Not to mention that he also told them the exact date and time of his NEXT death...

[Snake-Aes]

I've noticed something terrible. Something that I shall now convey. Don't read onward if you enjoy surprises, because this'll be an awesome one as the comic may well be written.

I've noticed that a lot of people looked at the oracle prophecy, read that Belkar would kill/killed Miko, and said "No, he didn't kill her, he didn't stab her".

Meanwhile, I thought "Wait, the oracle doesn't lie, he bends the truth. So, how did Belkar kill Miko?".

Recall the trial. You know, the trial, at Azure City, "You are guilty of weakening the fabric of the universe", Mr. Scruffy was there?

Now, recall what Belkar was doing during said trial. He was busy murdering a guard, and then he was preoccupied with mind-killing Miko.

Now, remember when Miko threw Belkar in through the window, and they landed in the throne room (you know, Shojo's throne room, where the trial was?).

Remember how Miko was willing to kill Belkar, but it took Vaarsuvius' intervention to stop her?

Now, remember how shortly before Miko killed Shojo and lost her powers, that Roy, Belkar, and Shojo were talking to each other about how Shojo was fooling the paladins.

Figured it out yet?...

Recall Miko's little stay in the cage, when Zykon convinced her that the Order of the Stick was, in fact, allied with him. Remember how she was so sure that they were evil?

Now, back to Roy's/Belkar's/Shojo's conversation. Remember how both Miko and Shojo overheard it. Remember that, while Miko was busy having a mindfart, she mentioned that Shojo asked Belkar if he agreed with his methods.

Meaning that she hated Belkar especially. Which can be justified by the fact that she was like, one free action away from killing him.

She now saw the Order as evil, and Shojo allied with their 'evil'.

AND THEN SHE KILLED SHOJO. And lost her paladin abilities.

As a result of this, she ended up in the prison tower, which got hit with something big enough to crack a bar in her cell.

She then went over to the throne room, and broke the gate-In their time of victory.

And then she got sliced in half.

If Belkar caused her death, then he caused her to break the gate.

He caused her to kill Shojo.

He killed Miko (and her horse) in exactly the same path in which he killed Shojo, Azure City, and at some point that is more or less unrelated, Roy.

Don't misunderstand me; I love the little homocidist. He's effing awesome. He was like, my favorite character from like the third or fourth strip.

But he destroyed Azure City.


By the way, I totally posted all of this so I can say "I told you so" when he figures it out. :smalltongue:

But yeah... Ouch...
I wasn't really buying the other theories either... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

You're looking just a tiny little bit too far :p

[Carnivorous_Bea]

I wasn't really buying the other theories either... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

You're looking just a tiny little bit too far :p

Yep.

The Oracle was just coming up with those specious theories about Roy because he was trying to prevent Belkar from stabbing him. That's the beginning and end of the whole matter.

[Haven]

As for the tone/title? That was, in fact, to make it sound dramatic. I even noticed that back then. Got your attention :smallamused:

Well, yes, but the attention-grabbing was rather disproportionate to what you had to say. Reminds me of panel 6 T-Rex (http://www.qwantz.com/archive/001307.html).

[BenTheJester]

Does it matter wether he killed Miko or not?

The prophecy was fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle. End of the story.


Also your argument is completely invalid, causing completely indirectly something doesn't count. "No, the drunk driver didn't kill this child, his wife left him and he got drunk because of her, therefor SHE KILLED THE CHILD!"

Ridiculous.

[Draxonicar]

I get full "I told you so" rights in the event of miko being raised and belkar kiling her, just letting you know, but thats a stretch

[Arachu]

Warren: I never said the city fell entirely from this event, I said he caused it to fall. In other words, I said that it fell the way it did because of said event, but I never said it alone caused it. Like the oracle (which I'm getting immensely tired of quoting:smallsigh:) mentioned, Roy would've died either way. But having the ring caused him to die in the exact way that he did. Very similar argument.

Nimrod's Son: That does explain why no one ever wrote it before...

Thant: This wasn't about Miko, it was about Shojo and Azure City.

Eye: Good argument...

Raging Gene: Also, good argument...

Ben: Very good argument, though knowing the oracle himself, he actually would assert that...

General: I realize I sound crazy. In fact, I'm pretty sure I am... What I'm saying is that Belkar indirectly caused those two things, emphasis on 'indirectly'.

As for the length, it was born out of a mixture of drama and... Well, I really like to type:smalltongue:

Life story short: I actually have to get all dramatic to get people to listen to me. Hell, I put 'SPOILER' so many times for the same reason ads say 'NEW' so many times.

I learned something today... Never trust a kobold :smallyuk:

[Dark_Stryke]

This is kind of silly. You may as well say that Roy caused the destruction of Azure City because he's the one who hired Belkar in the first place. After all, Belkar would never have showed up in Azure City if Roy had never hired him.

Or we can blame Elan for destroying the gate, thereby directly leading to Miko's involvement with Belkar.

But wait! Maybe we should blame Eugene, because if he hadn't made a blood oath against Xykon, Roy would never have hired Belkar, Elan would never have destroyed the gate, Belkar would never have had a hand in Miko snapping...

You can trace the line of cause and effect back as far as you like. Do you know who I think destroyed Azure City? An army of hobgoblins, lead by Redcloak and Xykon. Miko killed Shojo. Miko also killed herself. Xykon killed Roy.

I mean, really, say you and a friend had an argument, and the friend stormed out of the house, only to be killed by someone who has been stalking him for months. Do the police arrest you for the murder, or the stalker?

[Haven]

General: I realize I sound crazy. In fact, I'm pretty sure I am... What I'm saying is that Belkar indirectly caused those two things, emphasis on 'indirectly'.

As for the length, it was born out of a mixture of drama and... Well, I really like to type:smalltongue:

Life story short: I actually have to get all dramatic to get people to listen to me. Hell, I put 'SPOILER' so many times for the same reason ads say 'NEW' so many times.


1. I'm going to call bullboop on this. You said "he destroyed the city!" That is not "indirectly caused those two things, emphasis on 'indirectly'". That's about as far from saying that as you get.

2. Also bullboop. You have to have something worth saying to get people to listen to you.

[Berserk Monk]

Good point except for one thing: Azure City was overrun by several thousand hobgoblins who just about killed every single Azurite soldier. It doesn't matter if the gate was intact. The good guys didn't have enough power to wipe out 20,000 enemy soldiers. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html)

[Jural]

2.You have to have something worth saying to get people to listen to you.

Don't we all wish this was true!

[TheBlackArcher]

ur theory means that hitler's parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc caused world war 2 and the deaths of millions

[Milcho]

Two points here:

a) The Oracle wasn't wrong--Belkar killed him, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

b) Are you reading the same comic as everyone else? You seriously believe that this Oracle, the person you believe can't actually foresee the future, nonetheless managed to guess it closely enough that he could arrange for a pair of lizardmen to teleport in within minutes of his death in order to resurrect him? Not to mention that he also told them the exact date and time of his NEXT death...

Well,
a) predicting that Belkar will kill you if you insult him enough requires nothing more than just common sense.

b) Yeah, I'm reading the same strip. I also tend to believe that all things are possible, only some are very highly improbable. (its a quantum mechanics thing for me) I therefore believe that the Oracle is just very damn lucky, but has no real idea what will happen. Why? Cause I hate him. QED.

I don't expect anyone else will agree with me, but I really don't care, its just how I choose to interpret events.

[Ceaon]

ur theory means that hitler's parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc caused world war 2 and the deaths of millions

Godwin's Law (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodwinsLaw), anyone?

[Haven]

Don't we all wish this was true!

Yeah...*sigh*...yeah.

[Ehra]

Well,
b) Yeah, I'm reading the same strip. I also tend to believe that all things are possible, only some are very highly improbable. (its a quantum mechanics thing for me) I therefore believe that the Oracle is just very damn lucky, but has no real idea what will happen. Why? Cause I hate him. QED.


I don't like Durkon. He can't really cast any spells, Thor just happens to bless or curse people right when Durkon pretends to do anything.

It's one thing to interpret things differently from other people, since interpretations are 100% subjective. It's another to just outright pretend that the Oracle can't really see into the future, he's just been lucky countless times in a row. He didn't really know that V was the one that killed the Black Dragon's kid, he just happened to guess the right person out of everyone else in the world!


But that seems to be common here. People want to believe something so badly they'll even ignore if their idea is explicitly proven false in the comic. It wouldn't be such a big deal if they wouldn't try to use these ideas that are plainly contradicted in the comic to try and "prove" other people wrong.