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Quietus
2009-02-10, 02:26 AM
For one of my current campaigns, I'm playing an older (140ish) year old elven druidess, focussed on the removal of a war currently being fought in the middle of what used to be her swamps. However, my DM tends to be fairly lethal, and my party isn't highly optimized, so I'm keeping my hands out of the cheese, particularly since the DM is very hair-trigger on anything he considers rule abuse.

So, I'm looking at being prepared, just in case he manages to off my girl. I've already dropped in-game hints that she is a mother (widow, and her children are all half-elven), and I think it'd be interesting to have the next in line be one of said children.

Rolled stats are 14, 11, 16, 14, 13, 14; I can raise one by up to 2 points, if I lower another by the same amount. I don't mind being midrange across the board, though.

What I came up with was the idea of going Wildshape Ranger variant (drop combat mastery and advancements of such in favor of Fast Movement as barbarian and Wildshape as druid). This would let me change up the flavor significantly, going from support-caster with very poisonous snake, to being a strange, if effective, melee brute. I was thinking of going Ranger5/Nature's Warrior5/Warshaper5 - possibly leaving Warshaper at 4, as I don't see level 5 of it being that useful yet. All prerequisites are set up simply by being a Ranger (survival/knowledge ranks, including a few into K.Planes, along with the Track feat) - so I have perfect access to basically everything I need.

Feat-wise, I really have access to almost anything I could want. Power Attack, most likely, would be one of my early options.. though I'm not even sure if that'd be such a good one, since most of my attacks will be secondary, and thus not apply. I could also go for Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target, making me one very wriggly target.

Anyone have good suggestions on .. anything that could help this character? Feats I may not have thought of, other Wildshape-enhancing classes, or anything to that effect? My main intent is to maintain the "I'm a big scary overcompensating animal-man" feel, since it seems interesting to me. Also, any suggestions as to what I could do to drop my animal companion for something more helpful would be appreciated... of course, I guess I could always just keep taking Animal Bond (or whatever it's called) to increase my effective level with it.

Adumbration
2009-02-10, 02:32 AM
You should take a look at Master of Many Forms in Complete Adventurer. It sounds like a perfect fit.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-10, 02:38 AM
Why can't you be a melee brute as a normal druid? Wildshaping Rangers are limited to small and medium animals if I remember correctly, so Druid would probably be a better choice as far as melee combat goes.

Keld Denar
2009-02-10, 02:41 AM
WS Ranger5/MasterofManyForms2/NaturesWarrior1/Warshaper4/MoMF8

Feats would probably be

Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Multiattack
Improved Multiattack
Rapid Strike
Improved Rapid Strike

for your Natures Warrior level, get the Serpents Coil ability to inflict lots of damage during a grapple. Also, try to pick up a Monks Belt with a Wilding Clasp. That'll help your AC and increase your damage. Check out the MoMF handbook over on the CharOps forum for a good list of forms to shift into to eat faces.

Quietus
2009-02-10, 02:48 AM
Why can't you be a melee brute as a normal druid? Wildshaping Rangers are limited to small and medium animals if I remember correctly, so Druid would probably be a better choice as far as melee combat goes.

Dm's rules, can't play the same thing back to back. If my druid dies, I can't make a new druid, I have to make something else. My current char is focussed more on the support/animal aspects, not the eating faces, so I think the wildshape ranger would be sufficiently different (and a change from the two "hit it with a two handed weapon" melee brutes we already have) to have him allow it.

MoMF - Right, I forgot about that, somehow. I'll have to check that out.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-10, 02:53 AM
Sorry about that (I missed the bit where you mentioned this is a back-up character somehow). I can't actually think of anymore advice, apart from the fact that Combat Focus, and feats related to it, may be useful if you have at least 13 Wis (page 50 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf ).

Temp.
2009-02-10, 03:06 AM
+1 to MoMF. Turn into pretty much anything and pick up some special abilities dependant on your form. Advance Wild Shape much further than a Druid can. Lots of groovy stuff with this class. It'll only cost you the alertness feat and it's far and away the best class for your purposes.

The same strategies that are really good for normal fighters are going to be really good for you:

Tripping is one of the most effective methods of battlefield control. If you turn into something large or something trip-inclined, you can probably trump a fighter at this schtick. Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes should cover most of your needs here.
Charging is much more effective for Wild Shapers: Pounce is everywhere, usually with some nifty attack combinations too. The usual Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Battle Jump choices are going to be as good as ever.
Grappling is actually going to be a viable option for you. With size increases, readily available strength boosts and common Improved Grab, this is golden. Improved Grapple is going to be the easiest thing here; maybe Hidden Talent (EPH) for a 2/day Expansion.


Complete Champion replaces spellcasting with feats (namely Combat Expertise and Improved Trip). To me, it's worth it. I don't know if it is for you--you're trading away free wand use, but you're feeding a feat-starved build with new abilities.

If you want to go straight shapeshifter, the path is pretty straightforward: Ranger=>MoMF=>Nature's Warrior or Warshaper. Here are a couple other options; not necessarily better, but potentially useful and thematic:

For almost everything, a 1-level Barbarian dip will help you out. Rage Strength boosts apply regarless of form and Barbarian-only feats and variants can be really absurdly good. It's maybe worth missing a level of Shaping:

For a Tripper, the Wolf Berserker feat (UE) removes the need for Combat Expertise and adds another untyped +4 to your checks.
For a charger, the Spirit Lion Totem (CC) is all it's cracked up to be.
For a grappler, the Spirit Bear Totem (CC) gives Improved Grab for all your shapes that don't provide it.


The Primeval Prestige class in Frostburn might also help. It fits thematically, anyway. It has steep entry requirements (2 wasted feats; one is doable through a level dip in Bear Totem Barbarian (UA), the other you'd be stuck with). Its payoff is full BAB and massive Strength bonuses (look up any Dinosaur/Dire Animal/Prehistoric-themed monster with 8 HD or less, subtract 10 from its physical stats and add them to your own). I think the Bear Warrior works the same way with the same sort of fluff, but with a more limited set of options.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-10, 03:17 AM
If you take a 1 level Barbarian dip, Extra Rage would give you 2 extra uses of Rage/day, which would be useful. Flaws (which can be found using http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml ) could turn out to be helpful for getting bonus feats, if the DM allows them.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-10, 03:26 AM
Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ War Shaper 4/ Nature's Warrior 1/ MoMF 3, Human or 1 flaw for Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape, Robilar's Gambit, anything, and Defensive Sweep. At level 9 you'll get Cave Troll form, at level 11 you can take the form of a Cryohydra thanks to Frozen Wild Shape. At level 12 you can be a 12-headed hydra and with Robilar's Gambit you'll get to make a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Also at level 12 you'll have War Troll form, and with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and casting Rhino's Rush you should be able to kill most opponents in a single hit. Get a Monk's Belt, Armbands of Might, Gloves of Dex, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, and a few of 1st level Pearls of Power for Rhino's Rush. Get some index cards and stat out your favorite forms on them for quick reference. Don't forget about your extra reach from Morphic Weapons, especially with Defensive Sweep.

Quietus
2009-02-10, 04:40 AM
Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ War Shaper 4/ Nature's Warrior 1/ MoMF 3, Human or 1 flaw for Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape, Robilar's Gambit, anything, and Defensive Sweep. At level 9 you'll get Cave Troll form, at level 11 you can take the form of a Cryohydra thanks to Frozen Wild Shape. At level 12 you can be a 12-headed hydra and with Robilar's Gambit you'll get to make a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Also at level 12 you'll have War Troll form, and with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and casting Rhino's Rush you should be able to kill most opponents in a single hit. Get a Monk's Belt, Armbands of Might, Gloves of Dex, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, and a few of 1st level Pearls of Power for Rhino's Rush. Get some index cards and stat out your favorite forms on them for quick reference. Don't forget about your extra reach from Morphic Weapons, especially with Defensive Sweep.

I don't think AoO's work that way. They'd draw only one AoO from me for the one action - I'd just be able to respond to up to 12 creatures in a round.

That being said, I don't want to get to THIS level of optimization... If I destroy everything we encounter without breaking a sweat, I'm doing it wrong. No one else would have any fun, and the DM would escalate things until none of the rest of the party could contribute. Besides, Rhino's Rush wouldn't be available to me, unless it's a first level spell.


I think I like the MoMF, at least for a portion of its advancement - likely as high as 7, for the (Ex) SQ's. I was thinking 6 for the Huge size (a significant limiter), but one more for obtaining special qualities is very good. So, if I start with Ranger5/MoMF7 (Alertness is easy to pick up, as he's used to overcompensating, so between half-elf and Alertness, he can say "I have better-than-elven eyes"), is it better to continue past that with Warshaper, or Nature's Warrior? Warshaper I'd definitely only take to 4 at most, probably actually stopping after 3 - reach is nice, Fast Healing 2 is... unnecessary.

Actually, what if I were to go with Ranger5/MoMF7/Nature's Warrior5/Warshaper3? I'd get a lot of really nice things through my MoMF levels, I might actually switch one NW level down before MoMF to get magic natural attacks, then top-load things with neat benefits from NW, followed by the really sweet things Warshaper offers, including Reach as a capstone. I'd lose 3 HD worth of Wildshape power, but I'd have access to Tiny-Huge shapes, from Animal, humanoid, giant, monstrous humanoid, fey, vermin, aberration, and plant. Replace Animal Companion with Spirit Guide (CC), Spellcasting with a feat at 4th (CC), and of course, combat mastery with Wildshape (UA). All essentially at the cost of Alertness (nice choice anyway), and 4 skill points. Keeping myself limited to whatever monsters the DM throws at us as possible wildshape options would keep my powers limited... although I fully expect the party to run into war trolls soon enough.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-10, 06:14 AM
The wording of a Hydra's AoOs would indicate that they get to use all their heads to bite on every AoO, and get 1+Dex mod AoOs/round. This has been a subject of debate for quite some time, I heard something about it being addressed in the Rules Compendium, but when I paged through it in a store in search of the ruling I couldn't find one. It makes sense though, since they also get to make all their bites at the end of a charge and as a single standard attack action, which would also imply that a Hydra with Whirlwind Attack would get to make all of their bites against every target within range. Take a flaw for Combat Expertise, and replace Frozen Wild Shape with Improved Trip if you don't want to use this, but keep in mind Hydras are Huge size so it wouldn't be for every situation.

Rhino's Rush is a 1st level spell from the Spell Compendium, definitely worth using since MoMF lets you talk when Wild Shaped. Since a 1st level Pearl of Power is so cheap, you can use it to start off every encounter even if you only have one 1st level spell/day.

I'd probably go something like Wild Shape Ranger 5/ MoMF 2/ Nature's Warrior 1 to start with, get Large forms first then grab Nature's Weapons so you don't need an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Take MoMF to 7, then get whatever else after that. Warshaper really isn't great after 3, but the 5th level is situationally good. If you don't use Wilding Clasps for your gear, instead Wild Shaping then equipping your items afterward, you can use Multimorph to switch to another form without having to reequip your gear again. You'd probably be best off just getting a few items with Wilding Clasps rather than wasting two levels, though.

Keep in mind you heal as though you rested for a night every time you Wild Shape, if you're already in another form you can Wild Shape into a new form, and dismissing the new form will change you back to the previous one. With MoMF 7 you can take the form of something with Fast Healing like a Cave Troll or a Forest Troll and heal up between encounters if you need to.

I'd say max out Knowledge: Nature, and take any animal form that you can make the check for, but for non-animal forms limit yourself to what you've encountered.

Fixer
2009-02-10, 08:01 AM
Try using the Barbarian Fast Movement replacement rules and take the Pounce instead of the Fast Movement. On a wild-shaping Ranger it makes sense to get your full attacks after a move.

Also, unless your DM says it breaks things, you can try convincing him to switch out your animal companion and your wild shape for the PHB2 Shapechange variant and see if that still applies to MoMF. It will still apply to the Warshaper, RAW, so it is a matter of interpretation to see if the GM will allow the PHB2 shapechange to qualify for MoMF.

Then you'd be a fast healing, pouncing, swift-shapechanging attack beast from heck.

JellyPooga
2009-02-10, 08:40 AM
...is it better to continue past that with Warshaper, or Nature's Warrior? Warshaper I'd definitely only take to 4 at most, probably actually stopping after 3 - reach is nice, Fast Healing 2 is... unnecessary.

My personal preference would be to take Warshaper to 5 and Nature's Warrior to 3. Multimorph essentially means that you no longer need to keep track of uses per day. Sure you have 7 or 8 uses of Wild Shape per day by this time, but the difference between that and an infinite number is huge. 8 uses per day allows you to change form a couple of time per combat, assuming 3 or 4 combats a day. That's not too shabby and good vs. a single type of opponent in any given fight. With Multimorph, you can adapt your form to suit every encounter, not just your combat ones...change your appearance as often as you like, swim/climb/fly speeds at will, you become the ultimate infiltrator never to be recognised by your mark(s). Versatility is the key here; in an encounter against various types of monsters, without Multimorph you might burn through a fair few uses per day. With it, you just don't care: become a critter with loads of natural attacks to deal with the mooks, change to become something hard hitting against the lieutenant(s), something fast to chase the bad guy running away, flying to give you maneuverability, burrowing to get the drop on them...all in the same encounter for every encounter in a day. Combine it with the MoMF 'move action Wild Shape' ability and you're laughing all the way home. Fast Healing 2 to save resources such as healing potions and/or wands of cure light is just a perk.

Nature's Warrior has the benefit of full BAB, but the 2nd level Druid casting is fairly insignificant (assuming you do take the CC 'bonus feat for spellcasting' Ranger variant) and the Nature's Armaments aren't really all that good...the best 3 (in my order of preference) are Serpents Coils (for grapply goodness), the flying one (+30ft speed and maneuverability increase? yes please!) and the Natural Armour improver (and even that can go hang for all I care; +3 to 5 Natural Armour is good, but isn't anything that special)...the magic bonus one can be replicated and improved upon by (Greater) Magic Fang or the wondrous item that gives you the same deal (I forget the name), so it quickly becomes irrelevant/uselss, the elemental ones require Elemental Form (which you don't get until MoMF 9) and +3 damage isn't exactly huge. Nature's Warrior is 3 levels long for me (+3 BAB, Lvl. 1 Druid Casting, Serp Coils and aerial stuff is about all I want from it), but again; it's just my preference.

Eldariel
2009-02-10, 08:56 AM
I always take Fist of the Forests for my Wildshape Ranger. Increases Unarmed Damage die size to reasonability, gives you Con to AC (which is incredibly awesome with Wildshape), is a PERFECT fit flavourwise and only requires one random feat (Great Fortitude). I prefer it over e.g. Nature's Warrior (although Nature's Warrior is a fine class too).

Nature's Warrior is a decent class (Wings of the Hurricane, Serpent's Coils, Claws of the Grizzly, Armor of the Crocodile are all handy for different focuses), but I find Fist of the Forests to be better. Combining Unarmed Strikes with Naturals as secondary is just brutal, and thanks to size changes, you'll actually get decent damage die size out of it.

Darrin
2009-02-10, 10:06 AM
Anyone have good suggestions on .. anything that could help this character? Feats I may not have thought of, other Wildshape-enhancing classes, or anything to that effect? My main intent is to maintain the "I'm a big scary overcompensating animal-man" feel, since it seems interesting to me.


One of the advantages the Wildshape Ranger has over the typical druid is full BAB. Unfortunately, the only shaper-friendly PrC with full BAB is Nature's Warrior. Even so, Barbarian 1/Ranger 5/Nature's Warrior 5 isn't too shabby to start with... add some Fist of the Forest, and then maybe Hulking Hurler, Horizon Walker, or Warmind.

If you're looking for some more versatile shapes offered by Master of Many Forms but want to keep the full BAB, you can add some different creature types to your wildshape via feats:

Aberrant Wild Shape (Lords of Madness): wildshape into any aberration. Requires another feat (Aberrant Blood), but the possibilities are endless. For example, try a choker with Inhuman Reach, a reach weapon, and Assume Supernatural Ability (for the extra standard action every turn). 30' reach, or instantly shut down any spellcaster within 15' with a AoO/grapple.

Exalted Wild Shape (BoED): adds blink dog, giant eagle, giant owl, pegasus, or unicorn, as well as celestial versions of any animals. Kinda meh.

Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon): wildshape into any small or medium dragon. Probably not worth it, since it takes a while to qualify for (ECL 12), and once you get above that, small or medium dragons would probably be underpowered.

Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn): wildshape into any magical beast with the cold subtype. Easier to qualify for (need base Fort +6), but the really nasty beasts (cryohydra, frost worm, tlalusk) aren't available until you can wildshape into huge creatures.



Also, any suggestions as to what I could do to drop my animal companion for something more helpful would be appreciated... of course, I guess I could always just keep taking Animal Bond (or whatever it's called) to increase my effective level with it.

There are two ACFs for trading in your animal companion. The first is "Distracting Attack" in PHBII. Whenever you make a successful melee or ranged attack, that target is considered flanked for the next attack one of your allies makes. Unless you have a rogue in the party, this probably isn't worth it, since an animal companion can do the same thing for longer than one attack (either by actually flanking or train them to grapple).

The second is "Solitary Hunter" in Dragon #347. Instead of an animal companion, you get your Favored Enemy bonus on attack rolls as well as damage. This is pretty situational, and easily hosed by a DM who never bothers to put your favored enemies into the game.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-10, 11:23 AM
I know it's race and not class, but changeling would be a great fit for this build, especially if you're starting out at a lower level. I know he's supposed to be half-elf, but just flavor him as being half-elven with special shapeshifting abilities (perhaps you could even go with the original meaning of 'changeling,' and have him be a fey switched at birth with your druid's original spawn). This segues into a shapeshifting class better, and you can disregard being half-elf (which is a sucky race, unless you want it for some specific purpose).

You could use your change shape ability to further customize the appearance of your wild shaped forms. Turn into a troll and make yourself look like a larger-than-average (but still Medium sized) human (though you'll still technically be Large), etc.