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View Full Version : [3.5] I need some Bardic advice!



AngelOmnipotent
2009-02-10, 09:51 AM
I'm starting a new game soon as one of my group wants to run a long-running campaign. He's an experienced GM, but hasn't GMed any D&D before so he's asked for things to either be kept as simple as possible, or if there's anything different to Core then have it next to you at all times on paper to refer to (rather than the entire book).

The campaign he's running is the large Expedition to Undermountain. Not the best choice in the world for a first-time GMing of D&D, but he says he'll be able to cope. So by the end of it all we should be around level 10.

I've chosen to play a Demi-Vampire Bard just for added flavour and an automatic excuse to roleplay. However it's the first time playing a Bard so I'm after some tips. I'd like to focus on the Charm spells, as any kind of vampire, half human or not, has to be charming!

Any odd combos are welcome, but nothing too far out there. Just keep stuff-other-than-core to a minimum unless it really is a must-have. I'm open to multiclassing and all kinds of stuff, so go wild! I want to have some fun.

Thanks in advance!

Eldariel
2009-02-10, 10:04 AM
How much do you want out of your songs? Maximizing Perform should be enough for Fascinate, but if you want to really use the other songs, you should at least pick the "Song of the Heart"-feat from Eberron Campaign Settings. As a spellcaster Bard, I'd look at the "Sublime Chord" Prestige Class from Complete Arcane, which extends your spellcasting progression to level 9 spells (over level 6 as per normal). Then I'd go for Metamagic Song [Races of Stone] to fuel a bunch of metamagic feats on your spells, and perhaps Unsettling Enchantment from Complete Mage to add something to the effects of your enchantments.

Finally, I'd consider 4-5 levels in Lyric Thaumaturge [Complete Mage] before entering Sublime Chord for few extra lower level spellslots. Virtuoso [Complete Adventurer] is a good class to finish off (advancing your Sublime Chord-casting), giving you a bunch of new songs and uses of Bardic Music while advancing your spellcasting.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-02-10, 10:44 AM
As silly as it sounds I completely forgot about Bardic music until you reminded me... how embarrassing. I know how powerful Fascinate can be. Since I'll be primarily spellcasterish using my charmed minions to do the fighting for me, I'll be able to put a decent stat in INT to get plenty of skill points to keep Perform maxed out.

I guess just to annoy everyone I'll be singing songs about "how daddy never loved me because I bite him" ;)

All I know is that I'll be taking the Leadership feat at level 6 for fun. I'll check out what you've suggested and I'll put something together :) I think the only book I'm not 100% sure that I own is Races of Stone but I could always borrow it. About Sublime Cord though, is it worth taking if we're only going to reach level 10 or so?

Eldariel
2009-02-10, 11:04 AM
It's worth taking on level 11. That's the earliest you can take it :P If you don't ever reach level 11, then you obviously shouldn't bother picking it. But as far as spellcasting goes, even level 1 Chord matches a Bard of equal level.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-02-10, 11:15 AM
I really do feel silly now. This cold of mine is messing up my head :P It's just been a while since I've actually been excited over making a new character, so I want to get it right!

Dragonsdoom
2009-02-10, 11:24 AM
I agree with what Eldariel said about the sublime chord, that is a nice option if you go that far.
There is something I particularly like for the spontaneous casters available in the Dragon Compendium, (Which unfortunately is pretty obscure and not exactly core I suppose. :smallfrown:) that is the addition of "Bloodline Feats", which give you a list of themed bonus spells, somewhat similar to the clerical domains but different, and quite interesting roleplay wise.

You basically are given one bonus spell at each spell level that is themed to the bloodline you choose, and as a side effect start to gain visual traits akin to your chosen bloodline. For instance a Sorc with the necromantic bloodline starts to look like a undead, and upon obtaining 3rd level spells gain Vampiric Touch as a bonus spell.

You can find the bloodline feats in Dragon Magazine #325 or the Dragon Compendium.

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-10, 03:11 PM
A demi-vampire bard from levels 1-10? Sounds interesting.

I do not know about the demi-vampire and its abilities; sounds like quite a high level adjustment....

Just some ideas:
- FEATS: try to get the requiem feat (song&silence for 3.0; libris mortis for 3.5). It lets you affect undead with your bardic music; albeit only at half duration.
The feat is highly stylish and seems to fit your concept well.
Plus, of course, devote the rest of your feats to raising the DC for your spell attacks. Extend spell is also nice to increase the duration of your charms, even at the cost of extending your spell casting to 1 round (not always appropriate). Silent spell is also good to remain unnoticed in your charmings. Basically, aim for a beguiler (PHB II class)-like build.
Leadership will be difficult to use in a dungeon campaign. Maybe you find a nice mount that joins your cause? Talk to your DM before taking this feat...

- BARDIC MUSIC: are you sure you wish to be a singing bard? You could also be a dancer and later take the core shadowdancer prestige class for flavour (although it has quite steep feat requirements). If you prefer to fight through your minions, raise your AC with tumbling (5 ranks for better fighting defensively), possibly combat expertise feat at higher levels (when you have enough BAB).
Additionally, remember that the bardic music abilities that do not require concentration can be maintained while you start another one with a standard action (so, for instance, inspire courage and inspire greatness easily stack

- SKILLS: hide/move silently makes invisibility as a spell largely unnecessary. Some knowledge skills could be good to recognise enemy creatures (know-history adds btw to your Max concentration to keep casting and performing in tight situations. Sense Motive and Diplomacy are good to max as well (sense motive so that you will know whether your charms are successful!). Plus, max out UMD. You can then use all items that you come across, which is quite good in a dungeon-only campaign.

- SPELLS (core):
For a 10th level bard that you intend
0: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Message (best stealth tactics communication ever!), Prestitigitation (will keep your clothes stylish to the last ...er...breath), Ghost Sound (must have for eerie atmosphere created by you), Mage Hand
1: Charm Person (yes.:smallsmile:..), Silent Image (best 1st level arcane spell), Unknown Servant (one of your many minions to come...useful for all kinds of things in a dungeon campaign), detect secret doors (must have in dungeon campaign).
2: Alter Self (if your DM is not allergic to morphing cheese), Eagle's Splendour (before you get a more permanent CHR boost item; alternatively/later get tongues to talk to all your minions and give them orders; but you could also spend some skill points to learn all relevant languages). Suggestion (only way in core to defend yourself in a grapple with a spell, apart from dimension door), silence (the poor man's AMF vs enemy spellcasters).
3: Charm Monster (...), Glibness (bluff +30, one of the best bard spells), Dispel Magic, Speak with Animals (you can charm animals with the charm monster spell, after all! Who needs druids? Charm your own horde of animals! With extend spell it lasts weeks...Dire wolves are stylish companions for a vampir-ish bard)
4: At 10th level, you get some 4th level spells...the campaign may be over then or going vs the final encounter...Dimension Door is good, as is Shadow Conjuration (with that you can also get the coveted phantom steed with only a standard action, in case you at one point need to cross large distances). I just love modify memory - since there is hardly a better way to befriend someone than by planting a wrong memory where you saved his/her life while he/she sleeps...;-). Also good for your own photographic memory, since you can target yourself.

Hope that helped.
And in case you are allowed to pick just ONE low-level non-core bard spell, take improvisation (1st level) from the spell compendium. It provides you with bonuses to attacks/skill checks etc. Highly useful. You could even kick out the unseen servant for that one :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

sebsmith
2009-02-10, 03:56 PM
I'm curious what your level adjustment is, since having a high one is bad for any sort of caster. Also, you really don't need to be a vampire to role-play. For instance, in a current game, I'm playing a Lyrandar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonmarked_house#House_Lyrandar). He is TN, and is relatively constantly looking to increase his houses profit.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-02-11, 07:20 AM
A demi-vampire bard from levels 1-10? Sounds interesting.

I do not know about the demi-vampire and its abilities; sounds like quite a high level adjustment....



I'm curious what your level adjustment is, since having a high one is bad for any sort of caster. Also, you really don't need to be a vampire to role-play.

Luckily a Demi-Vampire pretty much loses all the perks of being a Vampire, being more human with a few extra perks.

* +2 Strenghth +2 Charisma: Demi-Vamps are Strong and Seductive
* Demi-Vamps are medium humanoids. No size related bonuses.
* Demi-Vamps base land speed is 30 feet:
* Sun Weakness(Ex): Demi-Vamps take a -1 penalty on all rolls in sunlight.
* Choose between: 1 extra feat at 1st level or 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
* Natural Armor bonus: +1
* Automatic Languages: All automatic languages of whomever raised the demi-vampire. Bonus Languages: All bonus languages for whomever raised the demi-vampire.
* Favored Class: Bard.
* Level Adjustment: +1

My GM has also allowed 1 HP Regeneration for 1 Hour per Pint of Blood consumed. I don't have to feed to survive as I can eat normal food and bleed like any normal human, but my body has the needed parts to digest and use any blood I wish to take. Makes a Neutral Evil alignment pretty interesting - has no problem killing (and rather enjoys doing so) if he's wounded, but other than that he's pretty tame.

As for the leadership feat, we're not going to be spending all our time in Undermountain; we'll have to come out eventually to restock and things. The way the campaign is based, once we come out we'll be giving reports and I'll be bard-ing our exploits down in the Undermountain the GM has agreed that I would attract people that way, since everyone is lining up to get the treasures rumoured to be down there, but half of them are too scared to go it alone.
Besides having an adept following me around with the Identify spell seems a bit handy.

@ Sir Giacomo: I was thinking of Potions/Scrolls/Wand of Invisibility and keeping the Move Silently as a high skill. My GM has said he's going to apply a common sense to Hide/Move Silently rolls where if they can't hear you and you're behind them, you don't need to roll a Hide check as they're not going to turn around for no good reason.

The feats part is where I'd agree with you, but with the Metamagic I'd take Heighten Spell rather than Silent Spell - that way I can cast Charm Person/Monster as a level 3 or 4 spell should I really need it in a pinch.

All the stat increasing spells and non-essentials I would have in wand/scroll form. Yes it costs more, but it frees up my spells known for other useful goodies such as the Hold spells too. I'm not 100% sure if we're going to be gaining a Cleric in the game, so I'd have to think about that one. As for your spell suggestions, I'm liking the Charm Monster/Speak with Animals combo! Now just to find some Dire Animals....

DrizztFan24
2009-02-11, 09:20 AM
You need sweet bardic music? Make a spell to produce fog over a bodie of water, like sped up evaporation and condensation. Spell name-Smoke on the Water

lilhowie624
2009-02-11, 12:13 PM
if you wanna focus on charms and not the music aspect id say go mindbender form complete arcane. charms become permanet and so will dominate. but it has a rather high skill reqs to get in. diplomace bluff intimadate sense motive and some others.

got an ally who wants to shank you Bam permanet charmed

o god no an ancient gold great wurm poof its dominated permantly.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-11, 10:33 PM
This guide should help. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952766) Mix with Warblade or Crusader with the feat Song of the White Raven for a more combat-focused character, take Sublime Chord and then a prestige class to advance it for more powerful spellcasting.