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Dyllan
2009-02-10, 04:49 PM
Alright, the original Supermount combined Paladin Mount abilities with Druid Animal Companion abilities via the Devoted Tracker feat and the Halfling Outrider PrC to make a truly impressive mount.

What I've done is take it one step further. Using the Devoted Tracker feat, Kobold Sorcerer casting cheese, and the Arcane Heirophant prestige class, I've added Familiar advancement to the list:

One known issue: experience penalties. We never play with them, but this build would run afoul of them. There must be a way to avoid that, but I haven't really tried since we don't use them.

Edit: Rebuilt it from the ground up, because I totally forgot about alignment restrictions. Also, added stats for the mount... they're insane.

Earth Kobold

1 Anarch (NG Paladin, Dragon Magazine #310) 1 - Dragonwrought Kobold
2 Anarch 2
3 Anarch 3 - Draconic Rite of Passage, Track
4 Anarch 4 -
5 Anarch 5 -
6 Druid 1 - Devoted Tracker
7 Druid 2
8 Druid 3
9 Beastmaster 1 - Draconic Resevoir
10 Sorcerer 1 - Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
11 Arcane Hierophant 1
12 Arcane Hierophant 2 - Theurgic Mount
13 Arcane Hierophant 3
14 Arcane Hierophant 4
15 Arcane Hierophant 5 - Theurgic Bond (Familiar)
16 Arcane Hierophant 6
17 Arcane Hierophant 7
18 Arcane Hierophant 8 - Theurgic Bond (Companion)
19 Arcane Hierophant 9
20 Arcane Hierophant 10

Alright, here's how it works.

Anarch is a NG Paladin variant - allowing us to take levels in both Paladin and Druid.

Dragonwrought Kobold makes him a dragon. Draconic Rite of Passage is free to Kobolds (though they lose 1 to max HP). It, and Draconic Resevoir are prerequisites for Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. That is also free (they lose 3 max hp) and grants 1 extra level of sorcerer spellcasting. Loredrake is a dragon only substitution level that grants 2 extra levels of sorcerer spellcasting. End result, casting as a level 4 Sorcerer at character level 10 - this gets us into Arcane Hierorphant.

Our level of Beastmaster meants we're treated as a druid 4 levels higher for animal companion purposes.

Track is a prerequisite for Devoted Tracker, which allows us to apply animal companion advancement to our special mount.

Theurgic Mount lets us stack our levels in arcane spellcasting with our paladin levels for mount advancement - total of 19 by level 20.

Theurgic Bond lets us stack our levels in classes giving animal companions with our classes giving animal companions. We take that once for the companion and once for the familiar.

Arcane Hierophant lets us apply our familiar advancement to our animal companion, which is our mount.

End result, we have a mount that gets the advancement of a level 18 paladin mount, a level 21 animal companion and a level 21 familiar.

We end with a BAB of +15 - yes, one short of the fourth iterive attack. Unless your DM uses the partial BAB rules, in which case we have 16.25 BAB and get that attack.

The ability to cast Druid spells as a level 13 druid (level 7 spells) and Sorcerer spells as a level 14 Sorcerer (also level 7 spells).

Here's an example of how the mount could look. I used a Dragonnel, as it seems to fit the theme well.

This cost 4 levels of Paladin for Mount advancement, but that still leaves us at 15, giving us the full bonus:

Dragonnel
Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 26D12 + 26 (195)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), fly 100 ft (average)
Armor Class: 42 (-1 size, Dex +1, +32 natural) Touch 10, Flat Footed 41
Base Attack/Grapple: 26/
Attack: Bite melee +43 (3d6+21) or claw melee +43 (2d6+12)
Full Attack: Bite melee +43 (3d6+21) and 2 claws melee +43 (2d6+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Roar, Deliver Touch Spells, Command Dragons
Special Qualitites: Darkvision 60 ft, immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis, low-light vision, scent, Spell Resistance 26, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion, Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, Speak With Master, Speak With Dragons, Scry on Familiar, Share Saving Throws
Saves: Fort +16 Ref +19 Will +16
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Feats: Multiattack, Ability Focus (Roar), Alertness, Improved Initiative, Draconic Aura: Power (+4 to melee damage rolls), Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Power Attack, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Multiattack

So, how would the mount stand up against some optimized level 20 melee characters (non casters), do you think?

Also, if the DM allowed it, you could probably take some alternate class features for Improved Evasion for the mount, as you get it 3 times.

Draz74
2009-02-10, 05:00 PM
Impressive!


One known issue: experience penalties. We never play with them, but this build would run afoul of them. There must be a way to avoid that, but I haven't really tried since we don't use them.

Two known issues: alignment incompatibilities. You probably don't pay attention to those either, but as long as we're talking about RAW ...

Dyllan
2009-02-10, 06:24 PM
Impressive!
Two known issues: alignment incompatibilities. You probably don't pay attention to those either, but as long as we're talking about RAW ...

Actually, we do play with those. I can't believe I forgot entirely about that...

Of course, you could always start Paladin and become Neutral by the time you got to Druid, but that's a tad on the cheesy side.

Are there any alternate paladins out there that allow you to be neutral on either axis? If not, my build might be shot. :(

Greg
2009-02-10, 07:08 PM
Of course, you could always start Paladin and become Neutral by the time you got to Druid, but that's a tad on the cheesy side.
You lose the mount for that, I believe.

Malicte
2009-02-10, 07:08 PM
I seem to recall reading about a paladin variant called an Anarch in some issue of Dragon magazine that was Chaotic Neutral. I believe it was in Dragon #310?

It has many alternate abilities, but it keeps special mount.

Eldariel
2009-02-10, 07:12 PM
I think you're rebuilding the Ubermount (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-634163), which has AC 23, Familiar 20 and Mount 20.

Dyllan
2009-02-10, 07:24 PM
I think you're rebuilding the Ubermount (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-634163), which has AC 23, Familiar 20 and Mount 20.

It takes all the fun out of it when it's already been done... :(

Eldariel
2009-02-10, 07:43 PM
Na, your approach is a tad different, and the linked build uses Dragon-material. I'd just say "rock on, man", but I wanted to show you what's already been done either as a point of reference or inspiration (that part is entirely up to you).

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-10, 07:43 PM
Astounding, +30 NA means that the mount may very well be harder to kill than you are.

Is there a specific reason, aside from your mount not getting sniped off the second you get into combat, why you would want a such a strong mount?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Malicte
2009-02-10, 07:51 PM
A thought: is it possible to get the mount class levels through leadership? if so, you can take the Dragon Steed feat from the Draconomicon, and it could probably take the Hidecarved Dragon PrC for even more unkillability.

Flickerdart
2009-02-10, 07:55 PM
Astounding, +30 NA means that the mount may very well be harder to kill than you are.

Is there a specific reason, aside from your mount not getting sniped off the second you get into combat, why you would want a such a strong mount?

Best of luck
-Eddie
So you can play a horse/dire horse/magical horse that took a liking to a down-on-his-luck Paladin, or took advantage of him to further your own impressive power? Playing a creature with no LA that can fly under its own power and have incredible special abilities at that, with your cohort (without Leadership, mind) having 7th level spells of two kinds that you can cast through yourself?

Malicte
2009-02-10, 07:58 PM
So you can play a horse/dire horse/magical horse that took a liking to a down-on-his-luck Paladin, or took advantage of him to further your own impressive power? Playing a creature with no LA that can fly under its own power and have incredible special abilities at that, with your cohort (without Leadership, mind) having 7th level spells of two kinds that you can cast through yourself?

This reminds me of the idea of a low-wisdom character with an intelligent item, where your character is the item itself and the character is simply your current means of conveyance. Also, it's awesome.

Stephen_E
2009-02-10, 08:04 PM
Couple of points.

You forgot to tak leadership, making your Special Mount your Cohort as per the DMG (pg 202?).

Re: Alignment. Per RAW

You start of Paladin.
Change to Neutral.
Lose your Paladin abilities for changing from LG.
Atone to regain your Paladin abilities.
Retain Paladin abilities as a Neutral because you aren't changing your alignment from LG (it's the changing that causes the fall).
Remember to keep the Paladin Code and do no evil.


Stephen E

Eldariel
2009-02-10, 09:19 PM
Astounding, +30 NA means that the mount may very well be harder to kill than you are.

Is there a specific reason, aside from your mount not getting sniped off the second you get into combat, why you would want a such a strong mount?

Best of luck
-Eddie

It's mostly that your mount is now an insanely able combatant. The classic Supermount uses "Dragon Steed"-feat from Draconomicon to get a Dragon mount, adds 20 levels of Mount and Companion adjustment to THAT (and Familiar if possible; I have yet to see it, but since Familiar doesn't advance HD, it's not that relevant - the NA adjustments are nice though) and ends up with a medium Dragon companion easily able to beat up Great Wyrms in melee (of course, that's only melee and much of Great Wyrms' power comes from Magic, but it's still quite impressive).

So the idea is to indeed go "The big guy is with me." You can become a mounted archer, a mounted charger or something to seem like you're doing something.

Dyllan
2009-02-11, 09:35 AM
Here's another way to go. You give up access to druid spells and sorcerer/wizard spells above level 4, but gain first level ranger spells and four levels of paladin and wizard spells. Your spells per day are substantially lower. However, you have a lot more HP, and full BAB for the first 19.

So basically, this is the melee version of the character, where the other was the caster version.

Any Elf or Half-Elf

1-2 Paladin of Freedom 1-2
3 Ranger 1
4-6 Paladin of Freedom 3-5
7-9 Ranger 2-4
10-17 Paladin of Freedom 6-13
18 Beastmaster 1
19 Wildrunner 1
20 Arcane Heirophant 1

Feats:

01: Skill Focus (Handle Animal)
03: Devoted Tracker
06: Sword of the Arcane Order
09: Obtain Familiar
12: Theurgic Bond (animal companion)
15: Holy Mount
18: Theurgic Bond (familiar)

Well, this one peaks a bit late, but it's got great progression.

19 BAB, Cast as a level 14 Paladin and a Level 5 Ranger. The Paladin side can also cast Wizard spells, though only with borrowed spellbooks.

The Familiar Companion Mount is treated as a level 20 Familiar, Level 20 Animal Companion and Level 20 Mount.

Since Paladin Mounts peak at level 15, you can take an improved mount of up to 5 levels without any penalty. Normally it would cost you spell resistance, but you get that from your familiar levels anyway.

Crazy Scot
2009-02-12, 05:00 AM
One quick note: I was looking into your combinations, and found a problem with your first posting. You found a way around the alignment restriction, but in doing so managed to make yourself ineligible for the Devoted Tracker feat. One of its prerequisites is the Smite Evil class ability, and you lose that with Anarch. You get Smite Law instead, so this wouldn't work unless you use the catch that Stephen_E mentioned about getting around the alignment, and use just a basic Paladin.

One quick question: where are you finding the feats Theurgic Bond and Holy Mount? I am not finding them and was hoping to take a closer look at them.

Edit - After a more careful reading of the spell Atonement in the PHB, I am not sure if Stephen_E's alignment interpretation would work. The spell's wording says "The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds." IMHO, it would seem that if you were to fall from being a Paladin due to a change in alignment (either willing or unwilling), you would need to "desire" to get back to how you were (changing back to your original alignment). If you don't desire to change, why are you Atoning? To me, his reasoning doesn't make sense, and while it specifically doesn't state in the spell description that you MUST change your alignment back, it seems to me that it would fall into the category of RAI.

Edit - Going back to my first comment about losing Smite Evil, you could get it back if you were willing to throw a one level dip into Cleric with the Unearthed Arcana ACF (p. 58) to trade out your Turn Undead for Smite Evil.

Dyllan
2009-02-12, 08:17 PM
I found the feats here:

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf

They're originally from Dragon Magazine.

Zincorium
2009-02-13, 03:50 AM
Hm.

I'd like to point out that there is a variant wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) in unearthed arcana that gets an animal companion.

Yeah, I hear you, 'but you lose your familiar, so why take it when you can get animal companion elsewhere?'.

The thing is, neither the High One wizard variant nor the Arcane Heirophant actually require that you have ever had a familiar or are based of the level of a 'familiar granting class'. Instead, High One uses your straight wizard level, and arcane heirophant uses your arcane casting level to determine benefits.

Quick Note:
How this applies itself if you have the Devoted Tracker feat and both of the above is somewhat hard to wrap your mind around. Add in Theurgic bond and I don't how any of this would interact. So I'm going to just stick to one.

Drawing board version of Build:

Paladin 5
Beastmaster 1
Wizard 14

Quite possibly in that order.

No alignment conflicts here, and if we're human, no multiclassing penalties no matte how it's arranged as we have only two base classes.

Adding in Theurgic mount, we have a special mount equivalent to a 19th level paladin. We also have a natural companion that is 11th level and due to the High One substitution level we have the benefits of a 14th level familiar for our special mount.

Okay, adding in Obtain Familiar and Theurgic bond, according to my reading, would treat our wizard levels, that grant a familiar due to Obtain Familiar, as 14 additional levels for wildshape- except they're already used for wildshape. I'm not entirely sure how that works or how it would be reconciled.


Anyway, I'm not entirely sure if this adds anything of actual value to the discussion (other than making our supermount build a heavily deficient batman as well) or if this is just clouding the issue. Maybe someone else can use it better.