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Varnithis
2006-09-23, 09:53 AM
This has been bugging me for awhile now and I decided I would consult the experts int he Homebrew section of the OOTS forums for an answer.

I play WoW, and I play and enjoy DnD. But the scale of the foes you fight in the two games is vastly different. In WoW, for those who don't know, the Max level enemies and bosses you fight are unbelievably powerful. You need 40 cordinated players in top of the line equipment with detailed and praticed strategies to conquer the &quot;Raid Bosses&quot; in WoW. So I was wondering... scaled to DnD... what would be the CR for an enemy that was supposed to be a serious challenge for a group of 40 level 20 characters in excellent equipment? Would it be so obscene that the system can't accuratly create such a foe?

Thanks to anyone for answering this silly question.

Talus_of_Flambeu
2006-09-23, 10:49 AM
I believe that 40 20th level PCs woulb be EL 79(20+2 per uneven nu. PC after the 1st PC+1 per even nu. PC= 20 [1st PC]+40 [20 uneven PCs in the remaining 39]+19 [remaining PCs])....
CR 79

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-23, 11:38 AM
Each doubling raises the EL of a group by 2.

Thus, two level 20s are EL 22
Four are 24
Eight are 26
Sixteen are 28
Thirty-two might be 30 (When you get to groups this big, the system starts to break down)

We'll go with an EL of 30 for a group of 40. A party's effective level is EL-4 (A party of 4 is EL = Average Party Level + 4, and they fight challenges of CR = Average Party Level = Party EL - 4)

Thus, a raid boss should be somewhere around CR 26, possibly up to 28 depending on how well-equipped these people are supposed to be.

Note that it should be balanced (for AC, damage per attack, SR, and so on) as a CR 20-22 monster.

Varnithis
2006-09-23, 12:25 PM
Hmmm... Interesting.

I guess the systems are just so different it is too difficult to compare them realistically. Also, since a DM is controlling said &quot;Raid Boss&quot; in DnD, you can't really make them as powerful compared to a PC as in a computer controlled boss encounter. If you put a DM behind a Raid Boss in World of Warcraft it would be a completely impossible fight. They are monstrosites with millions of HP and the ablitiy to one-shot any player that isn't a tank.

But thanks anyways for the replys. I like to see how this kind of stuff works out.

2006-09-23, 02:49 PM
The CR isn't as important as the boss' powers. I imagine it should have such ridiculous defenses that players only (a) hit on a natural 20 and (b) break SR on a natural 20.

All elemental resistances at high levels. I would say Immunities, but high resists work well enough because they encourage the PCs to keep trying to attack with ineffective elemental attacks.

All good saves.

Multiple actions per round (because 40 PC actions will almost always destroy any single creature no matter how powerful unless somehow countered).

HP in the thousands (not entirely relevant, but it helps make the battle feel more epic if it takes more than three rounds to kill the thing after you've effectively won the fight).

Ability scores of no less than 26 each. 40+ if that score is relevant to this creature's attack modes.

Significant spell-like abilities. Quickened Teleport is crucially important (the Anti-Forcecage).

All movement modes. And very high speeds at each.

fangthane
2006-09-23, 05:13 PM
If you really wanted to be nasty, you could take a cue from EQ and let the beastie summon people as a swift (or free) action - not to fight on its behalf, but to smack them in melee. No SR, will save DC 34 should do it. Generally avoid obscene DR or regeneration but as some have said, boost up its AC.

I disagree that multiple actions are required; some spell immunities, some elemental immunities (one or two) and some 30 resistances as well as giving it good fort and will saves are more crucial. Work out how much damage evocation is going to do past the resistances (generally) per arcane caster and calculate the damage the &quot;raid&quot; casters will do on average per round, while limiting the effectiveness of spells or features which can swing the battle quickly; do the same for melee classes and make sure your monster can take the punishment. Adjust AC, DR and resistances as well as hit dice and ability scores to make it last as long as you want it to. Ensure that it's likely to do about 3/4 of a level 20 fighter's HP (roughly 290 total, with optimal gear/stats, down to about 250 as a low figure) in one round, but no more than about 1/4 of his HP in a single attack (crits may cause a kill, but that's the role of luck)

Give it really really low intelligence, so it's plausibly not smart enough to walk around the tanks and/or summon the wizard every time unless it's exceedingly angry with him.

If it's susceptible to sneak attack damage, ensure that it has at least one rear-arc attack as part of its full natural attack action.

In answer to your first question, I'd agree that the CR would be close to about 30-ish, but it'd have to be built non-epic in scope. Actually, Iames' &quot;elevated&quot; version of his persona is probably not too far off the mark if you were to crank up his HP to the low thousands, similar to what they do with raid mobs in MMO's.

I'd say there's not really a fair way to make such a creature in D&amp;D, but then, there's not really a fair way to make 'em in MMO's either. That's why it's commonly known that companies cheat and crank hit points and apply invulnerability to several techniques which work in other fights in order to make sure that synergistic effects don't trivialise the encounter. In D&amp;D, that's the DM's job so there's actually a touch less cheating in the monster's creation and - potentially - a bit more in the encounter itself.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-09-23, 05:22 PM
In answer to your first question, I'd agree that the CR would be close to about 30-ish, but it'd have to be built non-epic in scope. Actually, Iames' &quot;elevated&quot; version of his persona is probably not too far off the mark if you were to crank up his HP to the low thousands, similar to what they do with raid mobs in MMO's.

And I would like to thank Fangthane for the awesome compliment he just gave me by referencing me.

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-23, 06:26 PM
I'd also disagree with the actions; just give it the ability to attack a lot in a full attack. Probably Cleave, too.

fangthane
2006-09-23, 07:59 PM
If I were designing a dragon-based &quot;raid&quot; creature I suspect I'd give the tail an area effect (e.g. a 45 degree arc 30 feet long) as well as its claw/claw/wing/wing/bite, and an inherent elementally-compatible version of Fire Shield too; that should be worth a CR or two without raising DCs or ACs or other rolls beyond what level 20s can achieve, and it adds the additional tactical element of putting more damage on weaker combat elements. That and some extra hit points (say, multiplied by about 8 or so) to eat the damage should make it a fairly effective threat. Maybe, remembering some raids from way back, an ability which charges for 1d6+4 rounds and halves the current HP of all creatures within 60 feet as a free action. As long as it's stupid enough to blow the ability on a Bag of Tricks pet. :)

Eighth_Seraph
2006-09-24, 12:32 AM
Things like that will have to be custom-made for each raid boss. A pumped CR 30 earth elemental would have the ability to partially collapse the roof of whatever cave he resides in for massive damage halved on a reflex save; the first black dragon ever created would make all the waters of his swamp turn immediately into acid, which gout up like geysers and engulf the opposing party; the guardian roc from the plane of wind would be able to flap its wings in such a way as to make a Gust of Wind effect that counts everyone as three size categories smaller than they really are. What I'm trying to say is, when something gets that powerful, rules just don't apply any more, and specific abilities must be made.

Legoman
2006-09-24, 05:24 PM
Each doubling raises the EL of a group by 2.

Thus, two level 20s are EL 22
Four are 24
Eight are 26
Sixteen are 28
Thirty-two might be 30 (When you get to groups this big, the system starts to break down)

We'll go with an EL of 30 for a group of 40. A party's effective level is EL-4 (A party of 4 is EL = Average Party Level + 4, and they fight challenges of CR = Average Party Level = Party EL - 4)

Thus, a raid boss should be somewhere around CR 26, possibly up to 28 depending on how well-equipped these people are supposed to be.

Note that it should be balanced (for AC, damage per attack, SR, and so on) as a CR 20-22 monster.

Note that the MM lists Great Wyrm Dragons as CR 26, which means this is probably spot-on.

2006-09-24, 08:44 PM
Note that the MM lists Great Wyrm Dragons as CR 26, which means this is probably spot-on.

I have to disagree with you because 40 20th level characters would annhilate a great wyrm dragon. the character in my sig can beat a great wyrm gold dragon in 4 rounds by himself

Lord Iames Osari
2006-09-24, 08:46 PM
Wow. I hate to imagine what I'd do to it, then. :-/

Eighth_Seraph
2006-09-24, 08:55 PM
Probably shatter every individual scale on its body with kazejutsu for the practice, then reduce its mind to chocolate pudding just to cause it pain, then get it to be your thrall due to its now non-existant mental power.

2006-09-24, 09:22 PM

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-24, 10:12 PM
I have to disagree with you because 40 20th level characters would annhilate a great wyrm dragon. the character in my sig can beat a great wyrm gold dragon in 4 rounds by himself

Well, yes. The character in your sig has a divine rank. Once you get any of those, you transcend CR; the general rule there is &quot;defeat a god, gain a level.&quot;

As for how to make a Raid fight interesting:
First, you have to use This variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm). Otherwise it gets really, really, really boring.

Second, it needs to make several attacks/round, and the ability to hit several people.

Actually, a Great Wyrm does work quite well for this. Of course, its tactics will involve it flying quite a bit; probably grappling too (Snatch feat). It will, of course, cast quite a bit.

It should have the ability to shut down multiple characters per round. If it breathes, it does an average of 66 damage on a successful save; 132 if you blow your save. As a full attack, it can: Bite (4d8+17), Claw twice (4d6+8), Wing twice (2d8+8), and Tail Slap (4d6+26); this gives some pretty nasty damage right there. It can also buff itself.

It has Spell Resistance 32, meaning that (without Spell Penetration or Assay Resistance, mages need a 12 to affect it).

It qualifies for Epic Feats. That's a whole load of power right there. Fast Healing, Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, and, of course, Epic Spellcasting. Also, Devastating Critical, Spell Stowaway, and a whole slew of other things.

Defeating a Great Wyrm is a very, very, very difficult challenge.

2006-09-24, 11:16 PM
well yes he does have a divine rank so he is quite a bit more powerful, but still fourty twentieth level characters would easily kill a great wyrm dragon.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-25, 12:17 AM
well yes he does have a divine rank so he is quite a bit more powerful, but still fourty twentieth level characters would easily kill a great wyrm dragon.
Yes, but would forty L20s be able to take down a Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) or four?

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-25, 12:33 AM
Chain Dominate Person says they kill eachother. Arcane Thesis + Sudden Maximize + Blasphemy (Reds can cast cleric spells) says that all of them with less than 13 strength become instantly helpless. Mordenkainen's Disjunction says that the PCs have to save or fall out of the sky, which takes them out of the fight for several rounds, leaves them useless when they come back, and possibly inflicts some minor damage to them.

Automatic Quicken Spell and it can cast a Fireball, or Cure Serious Wounds, or any other low-level spell out without interfering with its other actions. Or it can take a full round of actions, then turn Invisible, for all the good that does. Or it can put its Protection from Cold back up. Or throw a Deeper Darkness on the nasty ranged attackers.

Epic Spellcasting. The dragon wins.

It does, of course, have defenses, too. Spell Immunity to specific, nasty things (I'm looking at you, Shivering Touch.) Death Ward, Mind Blank, and all of the other general &quot;cover your bases&quot; type things.

Whether or not a Red Great Wyrm can or can't take down an ECL 20 anything in one round isn't an issue. The question is one of numbers: how many does it take out per round? Is that enough? I'm going to say that the second answer is &quot;yes,&quot; unless the party came in to this with a lot of planning, and immune to everything the dragon does.

Legoman
2006-09-25, 04:38 PM
Chain Dominate Person says they kill eachother. Arcane Thesis + Sudden Maximize + Blasphemy (Reds can cast cleric spells) says that all of them with less than 13 strength become instantly helpless. Mordenkainen's Disjunction says that the PCs have to save or fall out of the sky, which takes them out of the fight for several rounds, leaves them useless when they come back, and possibly inflicts some minor damage to them.

Automatic Quicken Spell and it can cast a Fireball, or Cure Serious Wounds, or any other low-level spell out without interfering with its other actions. Or it can take a full round of actions, then turn Invisible, for all the good that does. Or it can put its Protection from Cold back up. Or throw a Deeper Darkness on the nasty ranged attackers.

Epic Spellcasting. The dragon wins.

It does, of course, have defenses, too. Spell Immunity to specific, nasty things (I'm looking at you, Shivering Touch.) Death Ward, Mind Blank, and all of the other general &quot;cover your bases&quot; type things.

Whether or not a Red Great Wyrm can or can't take down an ECL 20 anything in one round isn't an issue. The question is one of numbers: how many does it take out per round? Is that enough? I'm going to say that the second answer is &quot;yes,&quot; unless the party came in to this with a lot of planning, and immune to everything the dragon does.

The 'Immune to everything the dragon does' is what WoW guilds do to prep for raids. IE, spend hundreds of gold (Think plat) on expensive fire resistance potions, run dungeons over and over again until they get good fire resist gear, etc.

Not to mention the planning and the voice chat communication. Hell, the first time through MC, my guild spent 3 times as much time explaining everything as it did fighting.

EDIT:

Also, if you have 40 CL 20 characters fighting this thing, then more than a few of the mages are going to be doing nothing but readied-action counterspells for the reasons you described above.

Jack_Simth
2006-09-25, 07:41 PM
Yes, but would forty L20s be able to take down a Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) or four?
One or four? Yes, fairly readily, if they can choose a sufficiently open area; they all Fly (Flying Carpets are good) outside it's highest possible Jump+Reach+size+cloud range (figure 220 feet), and hit it with arrows. Doesn't much matter that they only hit on a nat-20; they're +1 Bane(Vermin) +X Composite bows (based on wielder) with caster level 20 Greater Magic Weapon cast on them. With everyone Hasted and firing as fast as they can. With, oh, 6/round/character (point blank shot, rapid shot, haste) for the archers and 5/round for the hasted non-archers and 4/round for the non-optimized clerics/rogues/bards/monks and 3/round for the wizards/sorcerers, the effectively +5(Greater magic Weapon)+2(Bane Enhancement increase)+2d6(Bane Damage Increase)+4(str average of 18 guesstimated)+1d8(Bow base damage), the average hit beats the DR by 2.5 points. Now, that's not much, but if they all hit on a nat-20 only and never crit, you're still looking at ballpark of 5 or 10 hits a round, for 12.5-25 damage; after about 115-230 rounds (and 23,040 mundane arrows, pricetag of 1152 gp; about 10 Effecient Quiver / Quiver of Elhonia (sp?)-fulls each; more for the dedicated archers, less for the spellcasters). As it doesn't regenerate and it doesn't fast heal, it's dead. If you can keep up with the arrow demand / Haste demand for the 23 minutes or so.

SR 60, they might as well be immune to magic as far as 20th level characters are concenred (barring non-core spells, feats, class abilities, et cetera that boost caster level significantly or damage SR or whatever).... unless you go with, say, a trigger object Trap the Soul (material component cost: 128,000 gp.....). If you can figure out the critter's name..... should be easy to get it to pick up the trigger object by placing it in a nice, tasty-looking terrasque or something.....