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Avor
2009-02-11, 04:12 AM
As a DM I have a problem, I've never had a party live past level 6. I can DM low level, but when I get past level 5, my encounters just get out of hand. I just wing it, pick out what I think is challanging yet fair and hurl it at the player. But in an effort not to be too easy on the players, I accidntly make the encounter to hard.

How can I make balanced higher level encounters?

Myou
2009-02-11, 05:02 AM
... when I get past level 5 ... I just wing it ...

...

Do you see where you go wrong?

caden_varn
2009-02-11, 07:57 AM
What Myou said really. Assuming you are talking about 3.x / 4, both editions have guidelines to make balanced encounters. They may not be entirely accurate, but they are better than winging it.
There is nothing wrong with a few easier encounters while you get to grips with the system at higher level either. I'd say that is preferable to wiping your players...

SaiphSDC
2009-02-11, 09:46 AM
You could just try some things sans the RPG element for an afternoon or two. Just run it like a tabletop wargame. Come up with a small handful of scenarios and creatures, and have at it. If the party dies...it dies. But they'll get a feel for it, and so will you. Then, try the next one.

You could work it into a campaign if you did it like an "arena". Throw out some fluff like a big magic healing field, medics on hand, etc. Gets them used to things, and gives a reason to lower the consequences for a short time.

I'd pick a few scenarios to cover "classic" grounds, like a big grappler, a few monsters w/ character levels (barbarian orcs with a sorcerer orc shaman?), flying, sneaky/ambush etc.

And let the party know what it's in for before hand, though you may wish to keep an eye on any extensive preperation (i.e. don't let the wizard rewrite his entire spell-list).

After each scenario, you can all chat about what did, or didn't work and why. Things like the wizard tried a fort save or die on a big troll...when he had a perfectly good will save spell ready, or he could have enlarged the fighter etc, etc.

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-02-11, 09:56 AM
I've found that large numbers of weaker enemies, although they scale somewhat in CR, are easier to make "challenging but not overly powerful" for the party. If the group of 8 soldiers that you threw at your 5-person party is proving too difficult, you can have one or two of them go for reinforcements or something. If they're too easy, you can have reinforcements just come to them (perhaps a cavalry horn or something as a 1-round warning). It's a lot easier to fudge a group of weaker opponents being an appropriate challenge than it is to make a single opponent weaker or stronger on the fly. The only thing you can really do there is HP.

there's a handy CR calculator on the SRD page, and the Monster Manual has Challenge Ratings listed. I have some problems with it since my party is more than 4 (which is what the CRs are rated for), but it's not too far off.

-JM

Dragonsdoom
2009-02-11, 10:38 AM
there's a handy CR calculator on the SRD page, and the Monster Manual has Challenge Ratings listed. I have some problems with it since my party is more than 4 (which is what the CRs are rated for), but it's not too far off.

I love that thing (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm), it really helps me out.

As I run a somewhat high power group of seven, it is much different from the normal CR scale of four thing, and I have basically figured out after some experimenting that if I toss in some variations of numbers and CRs, and the thing says that encounter is 'overpowering' I just need to scale it down to the top range of the 'very difficult' setting.:smalltongue:

Dyllan
2009-02-11, 10:39 AM
I've found that large numbers of weaker enemies, although they scale somewhat in CR, are easier to make "challenging but not overly powerful" for the party. If the group of 8 soldiers that you threw at your 5-person party is proving too difficult, you can have one or two of them go for reinforcements or something. If they're too easy, you can have reinforcements just come to them (perhaps a cavalry horn or something as a 1-round warning). It's a lot easier to fudge a group of weaker opponents being an appropriate challenge than it is to make a single opponent weaker or stronger on the fly. The only thing you can really do there is HP.

That reminds me of the zombie encounter I threw at my party years back...

They heard some scream, in the middle of the night, and headed out into the open field where all the bodies of the humans, dwarves, kobolds and orcs that recently died in a massive battle were... and then those bodies started rising to attack.

Long story short, I kept sending more zombies after them - so they were surrounded 3 or 4 deep, until they started to get in trouble... then I stopped adding more.

Led to a very memorable encounter that seemed much more dangerous than it really was.

bobspldbckwrds
2009-02-11, 02:45 PM
try a creature that is their cr with a few lower level minions around to make thing interesting. also choose monsters that are a challenge for individual party members, like displacer beast for rogue, medusa for barbarian, ******* counterspelling spellcaster for wizard, something with a lot of arms and a high grapple check for the cleric, and so on.

and remember, the only thing that a party fears more than a higher level monster is an adventuring party that is of simular level and build. nothing shuts a wizard up like a grapple check, and nothing shuts down a barbarian like calm emotions.

valadil
2009-02-11, 04:03 PM
My suggestion is to fudge. Either tone down the encounter if its too hard, or tone it up if its too easy. I prefer the latter (because it's less obvious when your enemies miraculously gain HP than when they pull punches).

Also, be aware of BAB and number of attacks. I usually use NPCs one or two levels above the players. A level 4 fighter vs a level 5 fighter is pretty balanced. At level 6 the BAB splits. A level 5 fighter vs a level 6 fighter is not fair at all. Keep this in mind.

DM Raven
2009-02-11, 04:37 PM
Well, I'm not sure what edition you're running, but both 3.x and 4.0 have guides to building encounters in the DMG. I don't know if you've read them over yet, but if you haven't, it may be a good starting point.

Also, keep in mind that it's ok to throw an easy encounter at the players once in a while. Not every encounter has to be a life or death struggle, sometimes the PCs just decimate your enemies...and that's ok. It makes your players feel good about themselves and it gives them more of an attachment to their characters. Just don't make things too easy on a regular basis or your players may become bored and lose that important sense of danger that makes it exciting to wander into places that man was not meant to go.

Finally, when trying to wing encounters, be cautious. I would recommend only ad hocing easy to medium encounters. Hard encounters should be planned more carefully as you don't want to kill your party without the proper provocation. Once you've DMed for a while and feel confident in your knowledge of the enemies, then and only then should you attempt to ad hoc a moderate to hard encounter.

Oh, and if you do ad hoc a hard encounter and realize you've made it too hard. Don't be afraid to fudge...just don't make a habbit out of this.

AslanCross
2009-02-11, 06:05 PM
Keep in mind what Challenge Rating and Encounter Level mean.

Encounter Level X means a party of level X can take up to four such encounters every day, with each encounter taking more or less 20-25% of their resources (spells, consumables, HP, ammo). This is the 3.5 version; I know the 4E version does an even better job of determining encounter levels and XP gained.

Anyway, a larger party might be able to take more encounters, or harder encounters. Certain builds also allow the characters to replenish their resources more easily (the reserve feat Touch of Healing, for example, or Tome of Battle melee characters).

I know Challenge Rating in 3.5 is often off (An 11th-level human fighter at CR 11 is nothing at all like a CR 11 dragon, or a CR 11 9th-level ogre barbarian, or a CR 11 6th-level skullcrusher ogre crusader), but I think winging it too much can end up putting your PCs into situations where the monster might have a critical edge over them.

How optimized is the party? How well do they work together?

I found that my 5-member party had difficulty dealing with encounters that rapidly deal damage because although they had really high ability scores and good gear, encounters that are theoretically (CR/EL-wise) level-appropriate end up beating them within an inch of their lives a lot because they mostly operate individually and don't even communicate in combat. They each go their own way; the cleric, despite insisting on being a healbot, doesn't even keep track of how injured her party members are. Even then, she only goes up and uses Touch of Healing; people who are at negative HP only end up getting into single digit HP instead of getting a much-needed cure critical wounds. The paladin rarely gets to the front lines in time, and the Wizard often forgets to open up with haste. Combat with my now-defunct group is often a mess, sadly, mostly because people seem to lapse into their own private bubbles when it isn't their turn.

Avor
2009-02-11, 06:53 PM
I realy don't get the CR and ECL. But your saying that the CR X is for for level X party of four?

That would mean an evil tea pot and candle holder, would be a fitting encounter? But I know 100%, a party of four, levek one, a fighter, rouge, Cleric and wizzard, would have an easy, easy time against these. Hell, a single level 1 fighter can defeat these.

HP- 4
AC-14
Attack- Slam +1 1d4-1
Initiative-2
Speed-40
Special-Construct
Saves- +0 +2 -5
CR-1/2


It's just too beatable, there is no risk of death.

Dannoth
2009-02-11, 06:57 PM
On not knowing how much is too much and winging it:

Obviously you will have to adjust this to fit the scenario, but here is the general idea.

1) Start off with something you know they can handle.
2) When they are crushing it > add more.
3) If they are crushing that > add more.
4) when they cease to crush it ... back off and let them mop it up or have the mobs start taking "morale checks" to run away

Fax Celestis
2009-02-11, 07:03 PM
I realy don't get the CR and ECL. But your saying that the CR X is for for level X party of four?

That's because CR isn't calculated in an additive fashion. The chapter on CR isn't in the SRD, but it is in the DMG. I highly suggest reading it, as CR doesn't really use math the way you think it would. What it essentially boils down to is 3 creatures of the same CR increase the CR by 1 (so that 1 CR 2 monster is CR 2, 2 CR 2 monsters are CR 2, and 3 CR 2 monsters are CR 3; similarly, one CR 11 monster is CR 11, 2 CR 11 monsters are CR 11, and 3 CR 11 monsters are CR 12).

Again, using the encounter calculator linked previous in this post helps immensely.

The other thing to remember is that CR is not a measure of lethality but instead of expenditure: an equal CR encounter should require the party to expend 25% of their resources (whether those resources are potions, spells, HP, or otherwise). This is largely where the "4 encounters a day" bit comes in, as one would think that four encounters requiring 25% of the PC's resources would mean that they're totally used up at the end of the day. This isn't quite the case, but it's close enough.

Vonriel
2009-02-11, 07:12 PM
*snipped because Fax has better info than me :smalltongue:*

The trick here is that death shouldn't be a high probablility in every encounter, because then you either wind up draining the party's resources before the campaign is half way through or you have players start rerolling between their turns, but at the same time death should be on the table.

DM Raven
2009-02-11, 07:24 PM
I realy don't get the CR and ECL. But your saying that the CR X is for for level X party of four?

That would mean an evil tea pot and candle holder, would be a fitting encounter? But I know 100%, a party of four, levek one, a fighter, rouge, Cleric and wizzard, would have an easy, easy time against these. Hell, a single level 1 fighter can defeat these.

HP- 4
AC-14
Attack- Slam +1 1d4-1
Initiative-2
Speed-40
Special-Construct
Saves- +0 +2 -5
CR-1/2


It's just too beatable, there is no risk of death.

If the encounter level is correct then there is always a risk of death if your party plays foolishly. If you're talking about 3.x, it's a bit harder to judge some of the encounters but still very easy once you get the hang of it.

You don't want all of your encounters to push the PCs to their limits, it's a bit tiring and, frankly, unrealistic in most worlds. True you want your PCs to feel like there is danger involved in the choices they make and the creatures they fight, but you also want them to move from encounter to encounter spending their resources correctly as they follow your trail of breadcrumbs to the climax of the story. If every battle pushes your PCs to their limits then they will begin to notice this trend and they may tire of it quickly.

Plus, if you think the CRs are incorrect you can always use circumstance, environment, and other factors to up the DC a bit. Just don't go crazy for less important encounters. If your story demands that every encounter in a certain quest pushes the PCs to their limit, then at least give them ways to recover resources along the way. (Maybe scrolls, potions, or other one-use magic items) But don't send them into an impossible situation with no way out unless they did something really foolish to get there. And even then you should always offer at least a less-obvious escape hatch...

Starbuck_II
2009-02-11, 07:33 PM
I realy don't get the CR and ECL. But your saying that the CR X is for for level X party of four?

That would mean an evil tea pot and candle holder, would be a fitting encounter? But I know 100%, a party of four, levek one, a fighter, rouge, Cleric and wizzard, would have an easy, easy time against these. Hell, a single level 1 fighter can defeat these.

HP- 4
AC-14
Attack- Slam +1 1d4-1
Initiative-2
Speed-40
Special-Construct
Saves- +0 +2 -5
CR-1/2


It's just too beatable, there is no risk of death.

Don't forget to add in Hardness (acts a super DR because DR doesn't stop energy attacks but Hardness does).

Assuming normal ceramic: I'd say Hardness 2-5 for the tea pot and Candle Holder.

A Level one Fighter deals
One handed: 6 damage /round on average (assuming Longsword and 14 Str).
He needs to deal multiple hits to hill them.
6-5=1 damage.
2 handed: 10 damage/round on average (assuming Greatsword and 14 Str).
So Assuming Hardness 5, he deals enough to kill them in one hit.

So only 2 handers can kill those things.
Heck, the spell caster in worst shape: can't sleep them, can't Magic Missile/burn them easily (1d4+1=0 damage or fire attacks deal 1/2 according to PHB).

Avor
2009-02-11, 10:28 PM
Ok. I tink I got it, thamks. I will still make things difficult. 3 gobliins is just a
waste of time.



Don't forget to add in Hardness (acts a super DR because DR doesn't stop energy attacks but Hardness does).

Oh I did

Urthdigger
2009-02-12, 03:06 AM
I agree with most of the posters here in that it's more than ok to have the random fluff encounters more than survivable. There is a difference between something that's a waste of time and something that's a little bit below the power of the characters. I suppose you can say "Don't be afraid of your players dying". You're new to DMing (and so am I for that matter), things aren't going to be a masterpiece. However, it's more frustrating to have to remake the party from scratch than to not be threatened by the monsters. Jazz up the theme of the dungeon, make a suitable tough "boss" that at least looks dangerous, and even evil teapots can be exciting. Even with experienced DMs, there can be ups and downs. The campaign I'm currently in, there'll be encounters where I trounce the enemy so easily I think my build must be broken. Then I'll run into encounters where the entire party is left in single digits, some members in negatives, and still others where it's downright obvious the DM stepped in to keep us all from experiencing a quick and horrible death.

So, I suppose to sum things up: Don't be afraid to let your players live.