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Kwinza
2009-02-11, 04:17 AM
hey guys, im a lvl 2 fighter at the moment and i've taken these feats;

power attack
monkey grip
weapon spec (great axe)
weapon focus (great axe)

and im useing a large great axe.

now i was wondering if you guys know of any prestige classes or feats i could use to up my dmg output even more?

cheers :)

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-11, 05:24 AM
I don't know much about Fighters, but I know a lot of people have said Monkey Grip isn't worthwhile. A Greatsword is probably slightly better then a Greataxe due to how it deals more consistant dagame due to using 2d6 rather then 1d12. Switching to that would help, and a feat I found on http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf called Powerful Charge would let you add 1d8 to damage rolls when charging. Later on, getting Slashing Weapon Mastery would help with hitting things and dealing damage. Shock Trooper and Leap Attack are good as well (Leap Attack will only be viable a lot later if you're using heavy armour, though). I'm guessing you're a Human from the number of feats you have, right? Also, what are your stats?


EDIT: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf could help with finding a PrC (page 124 lists Fighter availability). Multi-classing into Barbarian would probably be wise if you want raw damage output.

Quietus
2009-02-11, 05:32 AM
hey guys, im a lvl 2 fighter at the moment and i've taken these feats;

power attack
monkey grip
weapon spec (great axe)
weapon focus (great axe)

and im useing a large great axe.

now i was wondering if you guys know of any prestige classes or feats i could use to up my dmg output even more?

cheers :)

First - you're cheating. You need level 4 Fighter to take Weapon Spec.

You'll get a lot of people telling you how bad Monkey Grip is; mathematically speaking, you're giving up 2 attack to get 3.5 damage average, while Power Attack would give you 4 for that same penalty. Of course, going from 1d12 to 3d6 does make for a nice bell curve.

As a Fighter, your main source of damage will be multipliers, which will generally come in the form of feats. Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer?) will let you get 3 damage per 1 point of BAB you give up when you charge, though I think you have to make like a DC 10 Jump check in order to do so. Generally, not that difficult. You can also use feats such as Shock Trooper (Tactical feat, Complete Warrior) to exchange your to-hit penalty from using Power Attack for an armor class penalty. Combined with Leap Attack and Monkey Grip, this means at level 6, you can do 3d6+magic+1.5x strength+18, at your full attack bonus plus charging, with a -8 penalty to AC (from Power Attack's penalty and charge's).

If your campaign centers around a particular type of enemy, a level of Ranger to pick up Favored Enemy (as well as Track, nice save bonuses, and a buttload of skills) will let you pick Favored Power Attack (Complete Warrior), which essentially ups your power attack multiplier another time. In the above example, you'd add 24, not 18, to your damage against favored enemies.

For a nice general boost, I've always found a level of Barbarian to be helpful in nearly any melee build that isn't lawful. A single Rage per day means you can save it for times when you really need that +2 to-hit/+3 damage, plus you can get Fast Movement, if you aren't in Heavy armor. Complete Champion also has an option to trade Fast Movement for Pounce, which lets you make a full attack at the end of a charge, which could potentially let you do the above 3d6+magic+1.5x strength+18/24 damage more than once in a round, if you have Haste or multiple attacks.

Kwinza
2009-02-11, 06:42 AM
thank you tempest that link was amazingly useful!!!
think i've got a good idea of what to do up untill lvl 12 now
just need somthin for after that hehe

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-11, 06:43 AM
What is your build so far? (I'm just curious and it would help with giving more advice). Combat Focus is good for defence-boosting if you have the Wis for it (once you have a couple of other feats which need it).

Berserk Monk
2009-02-11, 06:48 AM
multiclass to barbarian, take the feats required for frenzied berserker, and prepare to slaughter the %^&* out off your party and any opponents you come across.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-11, 06:50 AM
Why would that be a good idea? I heard that Hold Person and Calm Emotions are able to stop FBs after combat, but if the DM rules that you can;t decide to fail the will saves automatically, it will just annoy everyone else for no reason.

Kwinza
2009-02-11, 06:53 AM
so far its as i've said plus;

Lvl 3
Cleave
[General, Fighter]
(PH p92)
Strength 13
Power Attack
If you drop a creature (i.e., put it to 0 hp or below, or simply kill it) in melee, you can immediately make a
melee attack with the same weapon and at the same attack bonus against a creature within reach. You may
not take a 5’ step.
This ability may be used once per round.

Lvl 6
Greater Powerful Charge
[General, Fighter]
(Eb p54)
(Mini p27)
Medium-size or larger
Base Attack Bonus +4
Powerful Charge
As Powerful Charge, but treat yourself as one size category larger.


Lvl 10
Greater Weapon
Focus
[General, Fighter] (PH p95)
Fighter 8th
Weapon Focus with the
chosen weapon
Gain an additional +1 bonus to attack rolls with the chosen weapon.



Lvl 12
Greater Weapon
Specialization
[General, Fighter]
(PH p95)
Fighter 12th
Weapon Focus with the
chosen weapon
Greater Weapon Focus
with the chosen weapon
Weapon Specialization
with the chosen weapon
Gain an additional +2 bonus on damage rolls with the chosen weapon.






Lvl 9
Improved Critical
[General, Fighter]
(PH p95)
Base Attack Bonus +8
Proficiency with the
chosen weapon
The threat range for the chosen weapon is doubled (20 becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 17-20, 18-20
becomes 15-20).
Does not stack with Keen Edge or any other effect which also improves threat range.

Lvl 6
Improved Toughness
[General, Fighter]
(CWar p101)
(MM3 p207)
Base Fortitude Save +2 Gain 1hp per hit-die. This applies to future hit-dice too. If a hit-die is permanently lost, you lose the bonus
hp.

Lvl 8
Melee Weapon
Mastery – Slashing
[General, Fighter]
(PH2 p81)
Base Attack Bonus +8
Weapon Focus (any
slashing melee)
Weapon Specialization
(any slashing melee)
Any Melee Slashing weapon you wield has a +2 bonus on attack & damage rolls.

Lvl 4
Powerful Charge
[General, Fighter]
(Eb p57)
(MM3 p207)
(Mini p27)
Medium-size or larger
Base Attack Bonus +1
If the melee attack you make at the end of a Charge hits, you do extra damage. If you have multiple attacks
at the end of a Charge, the bonus damage only applies to one of them.
Size Bonus Damage Size Bonus Damage
Medium +1d8 Gargantuan +4d6
Large +2d6 Colossal +6d6
Lvl 12
Shock Trooper
[Tactical, Fighter]
(CWar p112)
Base Attack Bonus +6
Improved Bull Rush
Power Attack
You may use the following 3 tactical maneuvers:
Directed Bull Rush – On a successful Bull Rush at the end of a Charge, you may move your opponent one
hex to the left or right for each hex you move him/her backwards.
Domino Rush – On a successful Bull Rush that pushes your opponent into the same hex as another
opponent, you may attempt to Trip both opponents & they cannot attempt to trip you if you fail.
Heedless Charge – If you make a Charge that ends in an attack that uses Power Attack (at least a –5 to your
attack roll), you may transfer part or all of the attack roll penalty to your AC as a penalty. This is in
additional to the –2 AC due to the Charge.



Dmg at lvl 12 on a successful charge

Hit 1: 3d6(weapon) + 3d6(great powerful charge) + 10(power attack)
+ 6(str n a half)
+ 4(greater weapon spec) + 2(weapon mastery – slashing)
= and average of;
40dmg

Hit 2: 3d6(weapon) + 3d6(great powerful charge) + 10(power attack)
+ 6(str n a half)
+ 4(greater weapon spec) + 2(weapon mastery – slashing)
= and average of;
40dmg

Hit 3: 3d6(weapon) + 3d6(great powerful charge) + 10(power attack)
+ 6(str n a half)
+ 4(greater weapon spec) + 2(weapon mastery – slashing)
= and average of;
40dmg


Average dmg at lvl 12 = 120 per round
Average crit at lvl 12 = 222 per round
Max dmg at lvl 12 = 174 per round
Max crit at lvl 12 = 390 per round

Riffington
2009-02-11, 06:57 AM
thank you tempest that link was amazingly useful!!!
think i've got a good idea of what to do up untill lvl 12 now
just need somthin for after that hehe

Another thing, by level 12, if you're a Fighter (+/- Barbarian) you'll be needing Mageslayer and a source of Enlarge. Unless your DM prefers to pull things out of the Monster Manual instead of giving humanoid opponents.

So you need to add Bull Rush to get your Shock Trooper.
And Leap attack is just brokenly good.
If you need feats to drop, I'd consider taking out:
*Improved Toughness (though it is admittedly nice)
*Greater Weapon Specialization
*Monkey grip (unless you spend most/all of your time big)
*Leap attack (with shock trooper) makes up for both your powerful charge feats unless you spend most/all of your time big.

Kwinza
2009-02-11, 07:17 AM
cheers i never thought about leap attack.... i'll look into it :)

Person_Man
2009-02-11, 02:44 PM
Here are my suggestions:

1) If you can use Alternate Class Features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113), then do so. Fighters get some of the best Alternate Class Features out there. Specifically, Dungeoncrasher, Resolute, and the Zhentarim Fighter Substitution Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) all rock. Dungeoncrasher can add 8d6 + (3*Str) damage to any Bull Rush that knocks an enemy into a wall or other solid object (like a wall that your friend summons, or the floor if you're flying above the enemy) - with the right magic items or feats, you can generate them every round (and sometimes on every attack). Resolute covers your biggest weakness, which is your Will Save. And Zhentarim Fighter let's you Demoralize as a Swift Action, which can easily be optimized (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167) to devastating effect. Put them together with your standard Power Attack ->Improved Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper -> Leap Attack + Knockback combo, and a pure Fighter is quite playable up to level 11ish.

2) If you're not using alternate class features, then plan to go Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Prestige Class X or Fighter 2/Paladin 4/Prestige Class X (if your Cha is high - you can be a Paladin of Freedom or Tyranny if there are alignment issues). The Prestige Class you choose depends on what you want to do. Solid go to tank-ish options include Hellreaver, Kensai, Fist of the Forest + Deepwarden (if Dwarf), Death Delver (if you're going to make it to ECL 15), Master of Masks (one level dip gives you all Exotic Weapons), or Avenging Executioner (if you're not going higher then ECL 10).

3) If you want a very core-ish build, then I suggest you use Combat Reflexes + Standstill (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still), Leadership (for a decent mount), and Mounted Combat -> Ride by Attack -> Spirited Charge with a lance two handed. It gets very high damage, battlefield control, and mobility.

4) When choosing feats, in general you should look for feats that give you scaled bonuses (Power Attack, Leap Attack), extra attacks (Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit), battlefield control (Standstill, Knock-Down, Knockback, Earth Devotion) and/or special abilities you can't easily get from magic items (Shock Trooper, Combat Panache, Dive for Cover, Travel Devotion). Feats that provide static bonuses (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Monkey Grip, Dodge, Mobility) and feats that provide bonuses that can be cheaply purchased (Deflect Arrows, Improved Critical) are comparatively much weaker. If a good feat (like Elusive Target) requires bad rereqs (Dodge and Mobility), then that cost must be weighed when deciding whether or not the feat is truly worth it.

ericgrau
2009-02-11, 06:00 PM
A falchion will have more average damage output than a greatsword once you get improved crit. Until then you'll only be 1 point behind. Also consider other weapons with things like reach and trip, since you hardly lose any damage for some nice bonuses. And if you go straight fighter you'll have a lot of feats to help such things.

The keen enchantment almost always adds less damage than a +1d6 damage enchantment. The scabbord of keen edges costs even more until you get a +5 equivalent weapon. The one legitimate easy source is a party wizard or sorcerer with the keen edges spells, provided that he can spare the spell slot for you. And as a fighter you'll have a lot of feats to blow. So depending on how many splatbook feats are available and any arrangements you've made with the party caster you may want the improved crit feat.

Leap attack scales. Power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) usually does not. It's free damage if you can insure an auto-hit, but against the average monster AC with a "challenging" CR that's not so. Unless you bring in splatbook stuff like wraithstrike (but then I assume you're getting leap attack anyway). Or if fighting large numbers (>>4) of weak opponents they may have a low enough AC. And then cleave will help too. If you're not auto-hitting you'll usually get more damage from weapon specialization and maybe weapon focus (see link), since missing will eat up most of your extra damage. And, like this example, in core the static feats tend to be better general purpose feats while others tend to be better for certain situations. If you know what you'll be fighting, that they won't change, and what tactics will work then get the situational feats first. Otherwise get the static feats first. Tripping seems to be a popular situational tactic, for example, but again make sure you'll be fighting medium or small humanoids. Outside of core you may have better options and might want to only get core feats as pre-requisites.

bobspldbckwrds
2009-02-11, 06:10 PM
hmm... i have to say that monkey grip isnt as good in action as it seems on paper, but that is just my experiance.

you may think about multiclassing to barbarian, as rage and fast movement are wonderful abilitys.

also, there is the much overlooked tactic of sundering. sunder a weapon, sunder a shield, sunder a piece of armor, hell, sunder a leg.

it can change the dynamic of the entire battle if you take away an attack (like say, the rake attack on a dire lion) or take out the ability to move (say on a rogue) and if you succeed a sunder attempt on their head, then insta-kill, but you may want to check with your dm before you use these tactics though.

ericgrau
2009-02-11, 06:14 PM
A barbarian dip is good for rage if you only have 1ish major encounter a day. Sunder can't be used against armor nor the body parts of most creatures, but it does work against the other things listed plus other carried objects.

Knaight
2009-02-11, 06:32 PM
also, there is the much overlooked tactic of sundering. sunder a weapon, sunder a shield, sunder a piece of armor, hell, sunder a leg.

it can change the dynamic of the entire battle if you take away an attack (like say, the rake attack on a dire lion) or take out the ability to move (say on a rogue) and if you succeed a sunder attempt on their head, then insta-kill, but you may want to check with your dm before you use these tactics though.

Which would be because you can't actually sunder body parts, with the exception of a hydra's heads. Its useful on weapons and shields, armor is immune, but weapons are usually better to disarm. Shields are a fun target for sunder though

Deepblue706
2009-02-11, 07:15 PM
Well, if damage output is what you want, you've already got plenty of suggestions here to help you out with that.

I support both Mounted Combat and multiclassing to Barbarian for hitting hard. I recommend against further Fighter levels if you only intend to get more of the Weapon Focus feats; I think that feat tree is only really intended for fighters who need to compensate for lack of real power (for instance, a lacking in STR due to poor rolls).

I recall reading in some WotC source (likely the PHB, but not necessarily) that the Fighter is primarily designed to be a generalist of warriors, which I would interpret to be more about grabbing feats that enhance the use different tactical options, such as Disarm, Trip, Grapple, Sunder, Bull Rush, etc. Although none of these are usuable 100% of the time, having a variety of them at your disposal is nice because straight damage isn't always the best option, unless you've got loads of STR. Barbarians are sure to have loads of STR, so that should alleviate that concern.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-11, 07:35 PM
First of all, sundering is A Trap.

No, really.

Unless you're really clever about how and what you sunder. Destroying an enemy spellcaster's component pouch? Good idea. Sundering the treasure that, as a fighter, is your only means of keeping up with the rest of the party? And their treasure as well? Bad idea.

That, and unless you PrC the heck out of yourself, multiclass like there's no tomorrow, and/or take lots of variants and substitution levels, fighter is a trap as well.

Otherwise, you're better off with a cleric-as-archer, with a TWF rogue, totemist (for myriad and sundry abilities), or with ToB or a psychic warrior for everything else, generally. At least they give you things to do other than 'I hit its AC,' which is pretty much the only thing a fighter can do (and that option is pared down to even less for extra-large, extra-stable, or spellcasting enemies). When 'I hit its AC' isn't an option, such as 100% of everything non-combat, and 50-75% of everything in combat (YMMV), you're going to find the fighter class not helping you with...well...anything.

That said, if you must be a fighter, variants are your friend. At least some of them give you options that would circumvent the aforementioned 'I hit its AC' trap.

Thurbane
2009-02-11, 08:38 PM
Cleave and Combat Reflexes will both do far much more to improve your per round damage output than Monkey Grip will, in 95% of cases.

PS: Don't let anyone tell you that Fighters suck - they might not be quite as optimized as some other full BAB classes, but unless the build is truly woeful, they can certainly hold their own...

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-11, 09:21 PM
Cleave and Combat Reflexes will both do far much more to improve your per round damage output than Monkey Grip will, in 95% of cases.

PS: Don't let anyone tell you that Fighters suck - they might not be quite as optimized as some other full BAB classes, but unless the build is truly woeful, they can certainly hold their own...

You're kidding, right? They get zip for 9/20 of their levels. You might as well take levels in an NPC class (warrior).

Anyway, this is not the place for this discussion (which has been done to death anyway). Suffice to say that fighter is a 4 level dip-class and that unless you're taking alternate versions, you'd be almost guaranteed to do better in some other class.

Riffington
2009-02-11, 09:38 PM
You're kidding, right? They get zip for 9/20 of their levels. You might as well take levels in an NPC class (warrior).

Anyway, this is not the place for this discussion (which has been done to death anyway). Suffice to say that fighter is a 4 level dip-class and that unless you're taking alternate versions, you'd be almost guaranteed to do better in some other class.

Notice that he said "full BAB class".
Fighter (especially with a couple levels Barbarian tacked on) does just fine against other full BAB classes.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-11, 09:43 PM
Notice that he said "full BAB class".
Fighter (especially with a couple levels Barbarian tacked on) does just fine against other full BAB classes.Warblade. white text

sonofzeal
2009-02-11, 10:09 PM
Warblade. white text
Warblade, Barbarian, Crusader, Duskblade... yeah. IMO, the best way to play a Fighter is to dip something else frontloaded (Barbarian works), take the rest of the levels in Fighter, and claim you are whatever you dipped. As long as you rage, people will think you're a Barbarian; as long as you have maneuvers, people will think you're a Warblade. And both give you good solid toys to expand on with your plentiful feats.

herrhauptmann
2009-02-12, 01:32 AM
I assume you've already been playing this character?
If not, add in 'Furious Charger' from I think the Players Guide to Faerun. Additional +2 to attack every time you charge, AC penalty remains at -2. It's a regional feat, can only be taken at level 1.

Slashing fury looks good for later levels, but depending on the AC of monsters the DM throws at you, that -5 to hit on all attacks isn't worth the extra attack you get.
You can instead go to exotic weapon master and take his flurry of blows ability, but it requires you switch your main weapon to a chain or an urgrosh. However that gives you an extra attack at your highest bonus, though everything that round takes a -2 penalty.
At higher levels, if you can get custom items made. Boots of haste (not the MIC ones). Standard action activation, lasts for 5 rounds, gives you the bonus of the spell haste.
Addtionally, with any significant multiclassing your base fort save will go through the roof, and your reflex and will drop to nothing. If you have the benefit of a high con, take the feat steadfast determination, which gives you your con bonus to will, instead of wisdom. It also becomes impossible to fail at a fort save with a natural 1. (Had a level 16 dwarven defender with +33 fort. So didn't think I needed it. Instead I failed on 3 successive checks, mummy rot, level drain, and a special ability of a blood fiend from Fiend Folio.)

Look into Pious templar (complete divine) for Mettle. It works like evasion, but for your fort and will saves instead.

Deepblue706
2009-02-12, 03:01 AM
Notice that he said "full BAB class".
Fighter (especially with a couple levels Barbarian tacked on) does just fine against other full BAB classes.

I don't think against is the proper word to use, there. However, I certainly believe there is something to be said about the Fighter's pool of feats; which, if well-chosen, can allow those who take the class to perform as well as one could hope a non-spellcaster could, while also allowing for great mechanical customization.

A Fighter's feats do not generally apply universally, however, so DMs who favor specific kinds of monsters, encounters or other scenarios and do not provide fair opportunity will make a Fighter appear useless. Although, I suppose the same can be said for any class, as all have their weaknesses and shortcomings, even if some of them more-often appear to be exploited by somewhat arbitrary means.

Kaiyanwang
2009-02-12, 03:06 AM
Warblade. white text

You could consider Warblade more an advertisement for 4th edition than an actual class

/celerity
/teleport far away :smallwink:

IMHO, three are the best way to built a fighter:

-Power Attack - Bull Rush -Shock Trooper -Leap Attack -Dungeoncrasher Builts, building (with or without dips in other classes) a powerful, strong warrior: if there is space to charge, kill them with charges, otherwise, splat them on walls (as Person Man said).

-Combat Reflexes builts. In the right hands, combat reflexes rocks. You can build a fighter able to obtain AOOs when an enemy near him

- moves
- does not moves
- attacks the fighter
- attacks someone else
- cast a spell or spell like
- use a supernatural ability
- ...

You need more cheese (even Dragon Magazine) to do it, and none of these tricks work always.

- Archer. Better with other classes, but...

Depending on the amount of feats you invest on the builts, you could add tricks based on mental stats (Int for combat expertise, Wis for combat form feats, and Charisma fear and feats like goad )

Person_Man
2009-02-12, 12:04 PM
I think that the Fighter is an excellent choice at low levels. You get free Tower Shield proficiency and the bonus feats mean that you get to pull of potent combos well before other builds. But beyond a two level dip in a low level campaign, it's really not worth it, as the power of feats are eclipsed by the power of class abilities. By ECL 4, there are tons of other full BAB classes that can do much better - Knight, Crusader, Warblade, Duskblade, Hexblade, OA Samurai, Wildshape Ranger, Paladin, etc.

Thurbane
2009-02-13, 07:19 PM
You're kidding, right?
Nope, absolutely not kidding at all. :smallwink:

Notice that he said "full BAB class".
Indeed, and that is an important point.

I don't think against is the proper word to use, there. However, I certainly believe there is something to be said about the Fighter's pool of feats; which, if well-chosen, can allow those who take the class to perform as well as one could hope a non-spellcaster could, while also allowing for great mechanical customization.
Correct, on all points. :smallsmile:

You could consider Warblade more an advertisement for 4th edition than an actual class
Testify! :smallbiggrin:

...the point is, yes, there is little doubt that some BAB classes can be mechanically superior to a Fighter - but the ineffectiveness and "suckitude" is, like most other things, vastly exaggerated on internet discussion forums. In most Real World™ games, a well built fighter can be a worthy character to play, and who can certainly pull his weight in a party.

herrhauptmann
2009-02-14, 01:23 PM
Lvl 6
Greater Powerful Charge
[General, Fighter]
(Eb p54)
(Mini p27)
Medium-size or larger
Base Attack Bonus +4
Powerful Charge
As Powerful Charge, but treat yourself as one size category larger.

Lvl 4
Powerful Charge
[General, Fighter]
(Eb p57)
(MM3 p207)
(Mini p27)
Medium-size or larger
Base Attack Bonus +1
If the melee attack you make at the end of a Charge hits, you do extra damage. If you have multiple attacks
at the end of a Charge, the bonus damage only applies to one of them
Size Bonus Damage Size Bonus Damage
Medium +1d8 Gargantuan +4d6
Large +2d6 Colossal +6d6

Dmg at lvl 12 on a successful charge
Hit 1: 3d6(weapon) + 3d6(great powerful charge) + 10(power attack)
+ 6(str n a half)
+ 4(greater weapon spec) + 2(weapon mastery – slashing)
= and average of;
40dmg

Hit 2: 3d6(weapon) + 3d6(great powerful charge) + 10(power attack)
+ 6(str n a half)
+ 4(greater weapon spec) + 2(weapon mastery – slashing)
= and average of;
40dmg

Hit 3: 3d6(weapon) + 3d6(great powerful charge) + 10(power attack)
+ 6(str n a half)
+ 4(greater weapon spec) + 2(weapon mastery – slashing)
= and average of;
40dmg


You're playing a human right? Then with greater powerful charge you should only be getting a +2d6 when you charge.
Further, if you're charging, even with pounce you'd only get to use Greater powerful charge with one of your attacks. I take it that you're dipping a level into barbarian for pounce?