Pantheons, religion, races, and culture.

[eraau]

I'm in the process of creating my own campaign setting (which I won't go into detail here, as it's largely irrelevant to my questions), and I've come to the subject of Gods and Religion/Worship.

I've never been a fan of the typical DnD pantheon. Racial gods in particular have always bugged me, for a variety of reasons. Primarily, the Racial God's domain or sphere of influence seem far too small to encompass a culture. Take Moradin for example. God of Dwarves, associated mainly with Smiths, Crafting, and Artisans, with lesser influence with ideas of Family and Loyalty. Sums up dwarves pretty nicely. But what about Dwarven concepts of War? Time? Love? Death? Knowledge? Typically, a dwarf would have to worship another god in place of (or addition to) Moradin, if he cared passionately about another aspect of life. In effect, Moradin is not enough for "Dwarf Society". Alternately, Moradin covers all spheres of influence, and Dwarves become monotheistic (which I'll get back to in a bit).

It gets even worse with "Cultured Monsters" like Orcs who worship gods like Gruumsh. Gruumsh is all about slaughter and destruction, which is fine, but I would think that Orcs have more to them than mindless slaughter. And if they don't, then Gruumsh becomes "The Orc God", and not "The Destruction God, who is worshiped by those who like to destroy (which includes Orcs)".

Is this making sense? What about Dwarves who like to destroy? Do they worship Gruumsh? Or Moradin? Or perhaps some other god of destruction? And if there is another God of Destruction, then what's the point of Gruumsh?

I'm gonna take a not-so-brief detour here, and compare DnD against ancient real world cultures (Oh noes!). Ancient Greece had it's own culture, religion, and pantheon. It had Gods of Love, War, and Wisdom (Aphrodite, Ares, and Athena) as well as Gods of The Sky, The Sea, and The Underworld (Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades), and more. The Greeks were not a singular nation, but they were a common people with a shared language and faith. A faith that encompassed their entire culture.

The Greeks came into conflict with each other (like how the Goldhammer Clan of Mt. Durek fought for control of the Dunholm Mines with the Shieldwall Clan of The Highlands), but they also came into conflict with other cultures like the Persians (like how the Goldhammer Dwarves might war with the Quillesti Elves of the Moonwood).

Let's take a look at another real world culture, the Sumerians/Mesopotamians. It's admittedly more complicated than the Greeks (since Mesopotamia was a group of peoples, incuding the Sumerians, Assyrians, Akkadians, and more), but there are enough direct similarities between the various tribes that we can identify a common culture. Like the Greeks, this culture had a variety of gods for different aspects of life, like The Sun (Utu or Tutu or Shamash) and the Goddess of Love AND War (Innanna or Ishtar). There are many more, but I need not list them all to show that a culture with narrowly defined gods needs a full pantheon to fuel their culture.

The same is true with the Egyptians, the Norse, and many other ancient cultures. The only exceptions are monotheistic cultures, like the Hebrews, whose singular God encompasses ALL aspects of life. Yahweh is a god of Life and Death, Vengeance and Mercy, a source of Inspiration for Art, Music, and Literature (that glorifies Yahweh), the Creator and the Destroyer. It can be argued that Judeo-Christo-Islam faith is actually Dualistic, with Satan as a counterpoint, but his presence serves to reinforce the Supreme Divinity of Yahweh, and certainly Satan was not culturally worshiped/respected as the Lord of the Hell in the same way as Hades was as the Lord of the Underworld.

Sorry this is so long. I have a point and relevant questions, I swear. Thanks for sticking with me!

Back to DnD. In any given DnD setting, there is usually one Pantheon, and thus one God of Whatever. Let's use Knowledge, as an example. In Greyhawk, it's Boccob. In FR it's Oghma. In 4e, it's Ioun. How about Love? Myhriss, Sune, and Sehanine. In effect, there is ONLY ONE pantheon for MULTIPLE cultures. Dwarves, Elves, Humans all worship the same gods.

This is a problem for me, since the disparate cultures should have their own pantheons or lone diety. Elves should have elf gods (or singular god). Ditto for Dwarves, Humans, and any other race. Either that or there should be no Racial Gods at all.

"But 4e got rid of Racial Gods! Moradin isn't the Dwarf God, he's the God of Artisans and Smiths!", you say.

Aside from the fact that Moradin is the dwarf god in all but name (same goes for Corellon and Sehanine for the elves), all that does is say that dwarf religion is elf religion is human religion, which doesn't make sense.

The Greeks had a Goddess of Love, as did the Sumerians, but Aphrodite was not Innanna. If a Greek ever met a Sumerian (assuming they didn't come to blows), he would likely not believe in the other's god, or at best believe that the other was worshiping his God, but just got the name wrong.

This is all well and good in the real world, where Religion exists in the heart and head, and is an exercise in faith, but in DnD we can actually go to the Astral Sea and meet the Gods. Faith can be proven. We can prove who is right, the Greeks or the Sumerians. I could go and create a pantheon for each race/culture, but what happens when the characters reach the Divine Shore and meet the Gods?

How do you, as a player or GM, prefer to interpret the Gods?

Is there only one Pantheon (the DnD standard)?

Are all the Pantheons real (Do Aphrodite and Innanna exist at the same time)?

Is there only one true Pantheon (There is a God/Goddess of Love) but each culture knows it by a different name (Aphrodite IS Innanna)?

Thanks for reading!

[Stealthdozer]

In campaigns I run "gods" take an active role. They’re not "immortal deities" however (at least in the theological sense). They are powerful, frequently meddling outsiders. They don’t all get along either.

The "gods" often take on patronage roles for the party, as I don't advocate heroic NPCs.

[Riffington]

Well, now there's a couple reasonable solutions.
Solution 1: Moradin isn't enough for Dwarf society. He's enough for an ignorant human to know about Dwarf society. The Forgotten Realms Dwarven deities include

Abbathor (I): God of greed
Berronar Truesilver (I): Goddess of safety, honesty, home, healing, the dwarven family, records, marriage, faithfulness, loyalty, oaths
Clanggedin Silverbeard (I): God of battle, war, valor, bravery, honor in battle
Deep Duerra (D): Goddess of duergar, psionics, conquest, expansion
Dugmaren Brightmantle (L): God of scholarship, invention, discovery
Dumathoin (I): God of buried wealth, ores, gems, mining, exploration, shield dwarves, guardian of the dead
Gorm Gulthyn (L): God of guardian of all dwarves, defense, watchfulness
Haela Brightaxe (D): Goddess of luck in battle, joy of battle, dwarven fighters
Laduguer (I): God of duergar, magic weapon creation, artisans, magic
Marthammor Duin (L): God of guides, explorers, expatriates, travelers, lightning
Moradin (G): God of dwarves, creation, smithing, protection, metalcraft, stonework
Sharindlar (I): Goddess of healing, mercy, romantic love, fertility, dancing, courtship, the moon
Thard Harr (L): God of wild dwarves, jungle survival, hunting
Vergadain (I): God of wealth, luck, chance, nonevil thieves, suspicion, trickery, negotiation, sly cleverness

Solution 2: the world is mostly human. The deities are too. Therefore, racial minorities are so glad to have a deity of their own that they don't care too terribly much what that deity stands for. Think of it like political parties in parliamentary democracies. Perhaps your nation's parliament has 50 parties - two socialist ones, an environmentalist one, five religious parties, etc. And one halfling party. If you are a halfling merchant, you probably belong to the halfling party despite your economic interests. Not necessarily, just probably.
Similarly, an orcish wizard may still worship Gruumsh.

[Avilan the Grey]

In one setting we almost got done before the group split up I was in charge of inventing the gods.

I choose the principle of one Pantheon, one main enemy (see Aesir vs giants, for example) and multiple names depending on culture.

Example: As a plain ripoff from norse mythology, we have Galothin. He is the father-of-all, the oldest god in the pantheon.
He is the god (just like Odin) Wisdom, Rage, War and to a lesser extent Witchcraft.
Now, most civilized human populations worship him as Galothin, or "The Father", and emphasize the treats of Wisdom, Age and the tactical part of warfare (if needed).
The elves worship him as "The Horned King" and emphasizes Wisdom, Magic (witchcraft).
The dwarves worship him as "The Great Berserk" or "Spearfist" and emphasizes War, Rage and Out-Of-Control drinking.

[caden_varn]

I would argue that the Greek gods etc. were not 'real', in the way that D&D gods are supposed to be. When you don't have a divine being of war, for exmaple, each culture can make up their own version, mirroring the importance that their specific culture attaches to that activity. There is no-one 'in the sky' to contradict them (or that person chooses not to.).

When you posit a world in which Gods are very real, and do intervene daily in the lives of mortals (through empowering clerics for a start), the situation is different. You don't invent a god of war, you worship the god of war who exists and makes himself known to you. If you choose to worship an invented god instead, at best you get no advantage (compared to everyone else with their healing and buffs), and at worse you attract divine displeasure.

Now you could look at a Greek/Roman scenario, and say they have the same gods, but give them different names, and understand their portfolios slightly differently. Or you could just say - 'these are the Gods on offer - take them or leave them as they are.'
Of course, you can create racial pantheons, but if you want to make them significantly different, you need to think about Divine feats 4E, etc - and is it really worth it? That's a question each DM has to answer for himself.

I certainly don't think there is much reason to say that the 4E Gods are particularly humano-centric. Most humanoid races have the same basic desires etc., just with a different focus. So most dwarves, being racially inclined towards crafting, would gravitate towards Moradin, but many would worship other gods. Likewise Orcs, being destructive, gravitate towards Gruumsh. Humans tend to be more spread out than other races in terms of primary worship is all. You will have destructive humans worshipping Gruumsh and human craftsmen worshipping Moradin, along with the orcs and dwarves.

[Neo]

Old FR had gods for each pantheon but Wizards cut them out as its apparently too hard to have more than one list of names.

I prefer to have each race their own, but some could be argued as aspects of a larger overreaching god.

[kamikasei]

A simple but seemingly rare solution is to have a pantheon for the whole world, and give each race/culture - including humans - racial/cultural deities, one or more apiece. So all races would revere Boccob, but mostly humans revere Pelor, elves Corellon, etc.

[Narmoth]

In 2nd ed there was this sourcebook for gods of other races that you could adapt for 3.5 or 4th ed.
Personally, I prefer to make monotheistic religions that fight each other for my settings adding a few specialist gods in addition, or use an adaption of the Vala and Illuvatar of Tolkiens Silmarillon.

[AslanCross]

I like how Eberron handled it. Religions are tied to culture, but not exactly to race. The major religion, the Sovereign Host, is an entire pantheon of eight deities who govern different aspects of life (each governs two aspects). Clerics of the Sovereign Host either worship the whole or individuals, but as a whole the Sovereigns get along with each other.

Their evil counterparts, the Dark Six, don't work together as much, but they all seem to be intertwined somehow (The Shadow is the literal shadow of the Sovereign Aureon, the Fury is the daughter of the Devourer and Arawai, etc)

The thing about the deities is that they don't really have avatars, and don't walk the Material Plane like FR deities do, but clerics get divine spells from them based on their faith.

There's also the Silver Flame, which is not so much a person as a force of incredible divine energy embodying the purification of all creation.

All of these religions are pretty broad and are practiced across the main continent of Khorvaire. Most cities are fairly cosmopolitan, so you have various races practicing these religions.

Elves (at least those who don't freely mix with the humans and other humanoids) have two major religions: the elves of Aerenal worship the Undying Court (their "gods" are their leaders who have gone onto a state of deathlessness via positive energy reanimation), while the Valenar elves worship their ancestors.

Then there's lots of other cults and druid sects. Any cleric gets spells no matter what they worship, whether it be a fiend or even a person (the Lord of Blades, for example). The lizardfolk worshipers of the half-fiend dragon Rhashaak get spells too. Then there's the really odd "Becoming God" cult of the warforged, which worships a god that doesn't have a body yet.

While this isn't anything like my faith in real life, I think it's a sensible way to make things work in the game.

[Sebastian]

A things I like about Eberron is that the gods are not simply "good" or "evil", the distinction is more between the "civilized" gods and the more "wild" ones, the nice and not-so-nice gods, the hosts are the gods of civilization people, of crafting, farming, tamed animals and , the six are more dangerous but are not necessarily "evil", the Fury is the god of rage, but is the god of passion, too, I can see an artist worshipping the fury for inspiration, the devourer is the god of unleashed natural force, but is also the good of survival instinct. And my favorite, the wandered is the god of change,that can be both for bad and for good. Similiar examples could be made for the hosts,too. The Host is not necessarily good, the dark six are not necessarily evil.

[Athaniar]

Myself, I prefer one, not racially limited pantheon, although this may vary depending on my current state of mind. My latest oantheon structure idea is of no more than three deities (sexless energy being kind of people in appearance): The Deity of Nature and Life, the Deity of War and Trickery, and the Deity of Knowledge, Magic, and Death. Then, in another idea, there are instead several diverse deities... I'll see if I can find it somewhere on (one of) my hard drive(s).

[LibraryOgre]

A simple but seemingly rare solution is to have a pantheon for the whole world, and give each race/culture - including humans - racial/cultural deities, one or more apiece. So all races would revere Boccob, but mostly humans revere Pelor, elves Corellon, etc.

In a sense, that's what pre-WotC Greyhawk did. Most of the human deities were associated with human cultures... Flan, Oeridians, Suel, etc. While the pantheon as a whole was open to any human, the gods originated with separate cultures.

[bosssmiley]

This actually came up last week IIRC (clicky linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5715175#post5715175) for much goddish goodnesses). And is currently the subject under discussion (http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2009/02/ye-gods.html) at the excellent LotFP blog.

Personal taste? One universal pantheon with innumerable confusing and conflicting aspects. The various races anthropomorphise the gods in their own image, and then apostrophise one another as filthy heretics over minor details in trade dress.

Humans see Kord as a big blustering Norse berserk, Dwarves see him as a Trollslayer, Elves see him as an elven Wardancer, Ettins and Hill Giants call him Grolantor, etc. but all worship the same god of shouting and fighting.

@v: For what were proxies invented (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_PS_Comic.asp?Page=19)? The Powers have better things to do than sit around listening to the whitterings of silly little mortals all day long. :smallwink:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm still trying to figure out how I want religion to work in D&D. Strictly speaking though, religion in D&D carries a fundamental conundrum. Religious faith in the real world is based entirely on faith and irrational thinking. It's impossible to prove the existence of any god through science, logic or the senses, yet we still believe they are there and they care about us. So we build belief systems around them and establish ethical codes to show us how to lead a moral life.

D&D has these too, but the big difference there is that THE GODS EXIST. Firstly, they produce tangible effects through their priests and paladins. Divine magic is a very clear sign that the gods exist. Furthermore, the gods themselves can actually be seen, even spoken to. It's impossible to be an atheist or an agnostic in D&D, since a wizard can teleport you to Hestavar to see Pelor and Erathis for yourself. Because of this, there doesn't seem to be much of a need for "faith in the invisible" which is the key to virtually all religions, since your god is definately not invisible.

I know this is probably skirting dangerously close to flame-bait, but in my opinion, the only time D&D has truly gotten religion right was with Eberron, where the divine magic isn't proof of your god's existence, but merely your belief in said god, and the gods didn't parade around the world in avatar form.

[Piedmon_Sama]

like totally conflicting faiths in my campaign settings. Culture A believes there is only one god, all-knowing, ever-present, creator of the universe ex nihilo. Culture B worships an enormous pantheon of squabbling, jealous godlings, with many tales behind their portfolios and how things came to be. Culture C lives in nomadic tribes, who "worship" the earth in the sense that certain natural sites are sacred and all animals are believed to have a divine spirit, but possess no anthropomorphic deities. As far as they're concerned, the earth has always been there and always will be.

Which of these cultures has it right, or if none do, I never reveal to the players. Now that they're getting high-level enough in my current game that they could simply ask a deity, the answer's likely to be "that is not given for mortals to know!"

I hate easy answers. Sure, I'm not banning the Cleric class--but they represent a tiny fraction of the clergy, the rest being perfectly mundane Experts or even Commoners for a small country parish/shrine. One can (and, although I've never gone into detail, I always imagine that philosophers in my world have argued) that Clerics are tapping some other kind of force that's not their anthropomorphic worship-figure of choice, but a kind of universal energy, similar to how I explain Arcane Magic as manipulating the elemental chaos that formed the universe. I drop the alignment requirements for Clerics, so a hypocritical, Knight Templar-style priest of Heironeus or Pelor isn't going to lose his spells--they're powered by his faith, not apparently by his God's estimation of him.

[bosssmiley]

Religion in D&D: a cross between gang membership and bargaining with thunderstorms so that they'll smite the neighbours instead. :smallbiggrin:

Pascal's Wager and 'the evidence of things unseen' don't even get a look in.

[Morty]

I personally prefer the Warhammer approach that also sort of appears in Discworld, that is, gods are entities created by the belief of mortals. If enough people belive in a deity, this deity exists. Clerics cast spells because of their faith and the right state of mind allowing them to reach out beyond the ordinary reality. I used this approach in my setting, and it works well so far, but such an approach requires a lot of gods. Each race has its own pantheon with different gods that encompass the racial features and take care of the most basic stuff people ask their gods for.

[HidaTsuzua]

I've always gone with more of a Hellenistic deity approach to D&D gods. Gods typically are merged together by different cultures. Zeus and Jupiter are considered one and the same. Hermes and Anubis merged into Hermanubis. After a long period of interconnectivity, there's more or less one god with regional differences like Wee Jas and Saint Cuthbert. Racial deities are more of a special sponsor deity for certain groups much like Athena & Athens. Corellon Larethian is the special patron of elves and generally helps them out. Elves know about and worship other deities too but Corellon likely is the main god for any given elf.

One thing I've always thought was odd was the lack of sects. Pelor worship is unusually uniform compared to real world religions. I suspect it's done to prevent confusion ("Oh I'm a Universal Pelorite not a Evanglical Pelorite of the New Sun"). Also in-gamewise, it's easier to settle disagreements (a couple of Contact Other Planes or Plane Shifts should settle the doctrinal problem).

[BRC]

Here is the way I would do it, you get a standard Pantheon of Deities, lets say
War, Crafting, Trade,Life, and Death.

Then, each society has a different twist on this pantheon, with different ways to look at it.
For example, in one society the god of War is depicted as a noble knight, and the god of death is depicted as an evil demon. In another society, War is depicted as a bloodthirsty beserker who lives for nothing but slaughter, while Death is seen as a benevolent ferryman who weeps for every soul he must escort to the afterlife.

Edit: In my current campaign I had a monothestic society, instead of different dieties, I had different Sects of the main religion each representing a different philosophy to achieve the deity's goals.

[Kaiyanwang]

In my campaigns, I use the deities found in the Wotc manuals, and when roles overlap.. nevermind.

I do it because deities are more or less SAINTS, ascended mortals having the destiny to lose their immortality after some age, in an endless cosmic breath verting to Ragnarok.

The owners of the true power, even generally using deities/saints to communicate with mortals, are ousiders. True deities in my setting are Zapkiel, Asmodeus, Demogorgon, Queen Morwel and so on. They are True Ideas. Divine Rank 20+. (deities more or less racial, Ideas common but not always known openly).

I splitted the campaign in 5 ages -brutal translation (Origins, Past, Golden Age, Ragnarok, Foundation). Only in the Origins and in the Ragnarok Gods have an active role, when the wal between worlds is not finished (Origins) or is near to destruction (Ragnarok)

Anyway, since I'm Kaiyanwang :smallwink:, I'm sure that in the next campaign The Universe Will Be Remade. I will gather all clerical domains, and i'll split them in 4 (Law Chaos Good Evil) OR 9 (alignment) Pantheons of (nameless??) gods*. Clerics will worship them. Some overlap will be accepted. (so, race-shared gods).

Outsiders will be demoted again, but their roles will become even more different.

*the gods will be nameless but the pantheons will have names.

[RukiTanuki]

In my setting, the one entity responsible for creation is a non-factor in the universe (rumor is they were killed). Divinity is a force permeating the universe, shaped by various otherworldly influences (notably, the entity's followers). Individuals who sense the flow, and whose beliefs sync with a particular current, develop the ability to manipulate it and wield divine power.

Mankind, in its ambition and desire to seek out something more than itself, has codified the most numerous treatise on these currents, categorizing them by three ideals (Truth, Love, and Courage), seven denominations (each considering one or two ideals more important than the others), and some twenty-one virtues. While other races follow similar ideas, their religions can differ significantly, as their predecessors came to different conclusions given similar ideals. (Notably, "Freedom" is the virtue most frequently noted as missing from the Empyreal.)

I also had circles of religious theory form around other, equally powerful forces of the universe: the primal forces of nature, the primordial energies of arcane magic, etc. Finally, since many religous groups form when contact with a powerful outsider is made, I included several cults of worship for ascended epic heroes.

In starting your own pantheon, the best advice I can give is to ask/answer a few questions.
* Do the gods actively get involved?
* Do their divine followers (exarchs, etc)?
* Are their divine followers in direct communication with them?
* Do the divine followers tell mortals the truth? (Combining these two: in my case, the celestial choirs don't know where God is, but they're not about to tell anyone that.)
* How frequently do divine followers/the gods communicate with mortals?
* Has the information given by divine followers/gods been communicated openly and truthfully, manipulated, or suppressed?
* What makes the difference between a person who really, truly believes in their religion, and one that does so and gets divine powers because of it?

[Neithan]

The Greeks had a Goddess of Love, as did the Sumerians, but Aphrodite was not Innanna. If a Greek ever met a Sumerian (assuming they didn't come to blows), he would likely not believe in the other's god, or at best believe that the other was worshiping his God, but just got the name wrong.
To tell the truth, it was much like the other way round. Most of european and west-asian culture evolved from the culture of a very small and confined area. These people had a huge cultural impact on the cave men they encountered and so it's no suprise that you found very similar gods anywhere from Iceland to India about 2,000 years ago. And most sources that we have about religion in that time (and unfortunately it's not much and only comes from the very small literate minority) say that people were well aware of it and saw no differences between their pantheons. There's only one good source about the religion of the german barbarians, and it says that they worship Mercury but also bring offerings to Mars and Hercules.
That's not what the germans had said, but Tacitus was very sure that this was what they meant. (It's probably Mercury = Knowledge, Message, Advice = Odin; Mars = War = Tyr; Hercules = Incredible strength and a massive club = Thor with a massive hammer.)

In my campaign, the gods are even less clearly defined. There are cultural pantheons, but almost all deities appear in different pantheons at the same time. The Moon is worshiped by both, elves, sailor and dessert people, but the dessert people also worship the sun, while the sailor people also worship the Ocean. They also worship the god of war, which the elves do not, but the orcs do.
There's an almost infinite number of gods from which each culture picks a couple, which fits their tradition and environment the most. (Though in practice, it sums up to only about 18 gods and an undefined number of local divine spirits.)

[Sebastian]

I know this is probably skirting dangerously close to flame-bait, but in my opinion, the only time D&D has truly gotten religion right was with Eberron, where the divine magic isn't proof of your god's existence, but merely your belief in said god, and the gods didn't parade around the world in avatar form.

Even if it was Eberron almost total opposite Planescape was fun, too, and it had atheists in it, even if not in the "gods don't exist" sense but in the "gods are not Gods, they are just really, really powerful beings, like a 50 level wizard but they are not more divine than you and me" sense.

[JonestheSpy]

Great topic. Folks have made a lot of great points, to which I have a few additions:

As for real world comparisons, it is definitely true that in large swaths of the world - most notably the huge chunk of Europe/Asia populated by the various descendents of the Indo-Europeans - you see the same gods and myths popping up under different names and different set dressing. In the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Greek religions, however, the pantheons seem to be more a collection of local deities - gods of specific cities and tribes - that become parts of pantheons as the areas become parts of larger political entities, and the gods seemed to develop specific jobs within those pantheons, as opposed to just being "The God", like ol' Jehovah.

Speaking of whom, it's interesting to note that the powers of the original cleric class were heavily modeled on Judeo-Christian saints/prophets. Healing, curing sickness and blindness, and raising the dead are all common feats of the stories of Christian holy folks, and some of the weirder spels - Walk On Water, Sticks to Snakes, Part Water - are all right out of Bible stories. The only power that regularly shows up among the priests/priestesses of the 'pagan' gods is that of divination.

One could theorize a basic axiom: The more the Deity is likely to show up and meddle with mortals in person - as the Greek, Norse, etc gods so often did - the less they need to give power directly to mortals to do their work for them.

In my own campaign world, the gods are mostly grouped by culture, with very little overlap. THe central nation is a fairly-typical Celticish dark-ages style culture, that worships a single Marion Zimmer Bradley -style Great Goddess. Said goddess has a bunch of semi-divine children I refer to as "Saints" for simplicity, and they do resemble Catholic saints in many ways - they have their specific sheres of influence and people pray to them for help in specific areas and may adopt one as a personal patron, but they are definitely subservient to their prime goddess. In practical terms, many of the saints are identical to 'official deities' - the first ancient Warleader of the nation is St Heironeous, the goddess's grandaughter who taught people the secrets of hunting and the forest is St. Ehlonna, etc. Just a different aesthetic.

Other cultures have completely different gods. A nations loosley based on the Aztecs to the south have a main deitiy of agriculture and one of war (Hextor under a different name) who compete for worshipers, and some viking-like types to the north worship their ancestors, but a new religion worshipping a berserker-god (Erynthul) is growing in popularity. In the East there's the remnants of a civilization that worships the Sun, modeled after Greyhawk's Pholtus of the Blinding Light.

Non-humans are a bit different. I lean heavily toward the old myths and classics of high fantasy that just doesn't have religious elves, dwarves, etc. They often deal with Gods directly, being otherwordly types themselves, they don't WORSHIP anybody. Respect and honor, yes. Build temples to, no. Not sure what I'll do if a player wants to run an Elf cleric or something - probably decide that they are holy folk who embody a sacred "elfishness" without actually having a literal god of elves like Corellon Larethian. Savage humanoids are easier - they can worship all kinds of infernal spirits, their specific DnD racial diety or otherwise.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I personally prefer the Warhammer approach that also sort of appears in Discworld, that is, gods are entities created by the belief of mortals. If enough people belive in a deity, this deity exists.

Diskworld is a little more complicated than this. There are a number of individual gods sustained by belief in themselves (Nuggan comes to mind, sort of).

The main pantheon, however, is pretty much the same set of gods. Io, for example, is all of the gods of thunder, but turns up wearing a different hat for each set of worshippers. He does this to maximize his powers.

[shimmercat]

We also had a problem with the "Racial Gods," and we handled it this way:

We have greater gods: The One, the Two, and the Three. The One is Nature and basically a major Earth Goddess. Very hands-off. Usually people would worship an aspect of her, rather than all of her (one variety of druid is the exception). The Two are the Sun and the Moon, and have constellations that are more minor gods that fall under them. The theocracy of our world worships the Two and the constellations.

The Three represent Birth, Life, and Death. They created the Racial Gods, who then created the races of the world. Thus, we call Moradin, et al, the Creator Gods instead of Racial Gods, and we cut out Pelor and made a human Creator God that is less sun-based.

Also, regular people can ascend to godhood by becoming a legend, basically, and we call those people Patrons. They tend to be the most minor of the gods, but they get a divine rank or two (sometimes three or four, depending) and become immortal. This is a cool mechanism because it means that PCs can run into living gods (we have, in fact) and could aspire to become gods themselves.

We have other gods, too, but those are the main ones. As far as mechanics for clerics and such, we allow whatever is allowed in the books. This just makes it simpler, and means we aren't limiting players.

SO I guess I'm saying that the Racial Gods are Creators of their respective races, and are often worshiped by those they created. But the people will often worship many other gods, too -- The constellation they were born under or one that represents their ideals, the Patron who represents their profession or craft, the Greater Gods. Non-humans would work just like humans in that respect -- most of the gods aren't human-like at all.

I suppose you lose some of the cool-factor of lots of different pantheons if you do it this way, but it simplifies it significantly, which has it's own advantages. I guess a particular world-builder just has to pick what is important to them.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Even if it was Eberron almost total opposite Planescape was fun, too, and it had atheists in it, even if not in the "gods don't exist" sense but in the "gods are not Gods, they are just really, really powerful beings, like a 50 level wizard but they are not more divine than you and me" sense.

That's not really atheism. Atheism is a belief that there is no divine being. An atheist wouldn't argue that Bahamut is just a super-dragon. An atheist would argue that Bahamut doesn't exist.

[arguskos]

That's not really atheism. Atheism is a belief that there is no divine being. An atheist wouldn't argue that Bahamut is just a super-dragon. An atheist would argue that Bahamut doesn't exist.
In the setting given, where you can go talk to Bahamut personally, that makes no sense, so atheism has adapted to mean that Bahamut exists, but is merely very powerful, not some sort of divine whatever, since there IS no such thing as divinity. Using real world definitions of atheism doesn't really apply to D&D, since no D&D character can deny the physical existence of the gods, only what they really are.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

In the setting given, where you can go talk to Bahamut personally, that makes no sense, so atheism has adapted to mean that Bahamut exists, but is merely very powerful, not some sort of divine whatever, since there IS no such thing as divinity. Using real world definitions of atheism doesn't really apply to D&D, since no D&D character can deny the physical existence of the gods, only what they really are.

I don't think you understood what I tried to say. What I'm trying to say is that concepts such as atheism and agnosticism don't even exist in the D&D-verse. An atheist doesn't deny the power of a god. That isn't atheism. The beliefs of The Athar and people like them are not atheism. They are BASED on atheism, but they are not atheism. There's a difference.

[arguskos]

I don't think you understood what I tried to say. What I'm trying to say is that concepts such as atheism and agnosticism don't even exist in the D&D-verse. An atheist doesn't deny the power of a god. That isn't atheism. The beliefs of The Athar and people like them are not atheism. They are BASED on atheism, but they are not atheism. There's a difference.
I understood, but there is no word that applies to the Athar other than atheism, so D&D took the word, added a different definition to it, and uses it. I am fully aware of the real world definition of atheism, and I know it doesn't work for the Athar, but there's nothing else you can use to describe the Athar's beliefs, so atheism will have to do (you just gotta squint a little). :smallwink:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

...Why not make up a new word to describe it? It's been done in the past. The reason it's a problem with me is because it misrepresents atheism as a belief system. Atheism is what it is, and the Athar's belief system is different from atheism. We should call it atharism!:smalltongue:

[arguskos]

...Why not make up a new word to describe it? It's been done in the past. The reason it's a problem with me is because it misrepresents atheism as a belief system. Atheism is what it is, and the Athar's belief system is different from atheism. We should call it atharism!:smalltongue:
Frankly, the Athar's belief system is fairly close:

Atheism: there are no gods.
Athars: there is no such thing as divinity.

These are basically the same thing you know. W/o divinity, there can be no gods, just powerful beings.

However, we can go ahead and call it atharism (though it bothers me greatly, when an already existing word will do well enough) if you wish. :smallwink:

Compromise, central to civil discussion! Yay!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Wait, the Athar don't believe divinity exists?

I thought the Athar's central belief was that the "Powers" are not true gods, merely powerful beings who happen to run things. I thought they believed in the concept of divinity, that gods do exist, but the ones in charge aren't gods. Kind of like Deism.

[Sebastian]

I don't think you understood what I tried to say. What I'm trying to say is that concepts such as atheism and agnosticism don't even exist in the D&D-verse. An atheist doesn't deny the power of a god. That isn't atheism. The beliefs of The Athar and people like them are not atheism. They are BASED on atheism, but they are not atheism. There's a difference.

Why? atheists say "there are no gods", Athars say "there are no gods. Bahamut!? he is just a really, really ancient and powerful dragon that call himself a god, not a god for real"

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No no no. Atheists say "There is no God." If the Athar were truly atheist, they would say "There is no Bahamut."

[RukiTanuki]

I guess I just don't understand how "he doesn't exist" is the only possible response an atheist can give. It seems completely in line with their reasoning to accept things that have evidence (Bahamut exists and is powerful) but not accept things that require leaps of faith (Bahamut is a god).

If I claim to be a god, and other people worship me as a god, can a person only be labelled as an atheist if they insist that I do not exist?

[MickJay]

Even in antiquity there were some guys who came to conclusion that Zeus and the rest of the pantheon were simply some warlords and other long-gone humans who were remembered for their deeds and in time began to be worshipped as gods. Same for still existing religions, when nonexistence of important religious personae cannot be convincingly argued for, you can still say that they weren't really prophets/saints/whatever, but ordinary people who got others to believe in their connection with (nonexistent) divinity.

[arguskos]

Wait, the Athar don't believe divinity exists?

I thought the Athar's central belief was that the "Powers" are not true gods, merely powerful beings who happen to run things. I thought they believed in the concept of divinity, that gods do exist, but the ones in charge aren't gods. Kind of like Deism.
As I understood it, the Athar do not feel that there are beings beyond mortality and understanding. Some are simply so powerful they can appear beyond us, but really, they're just like you and me. Divinity is a concept that means a being that is totally beyond our ken, but since the so-called "gods" are not beyond our ability to understand, divinity is clearly a flawed and non-existent concept.

Note: this is my understanding and interpretation of the Athar, as explained to me by a huge Planescape fan. I'm quite possibly wrong. In any case, it's fun to talk about. :smallcool:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I guess I just don't understand how "he doesn't exist" is the only possible response an atheist can give. It seems completely in line with their reasoning to accept things that have evidence (Bahamut exists and is powerful) but not accept things that require leaps of faith (Bahamut is a god).

If I claim to be a god, and other people worship me as a god, can a person only be labelled as an atheist if they insist that I do not exist?

This is true, but you're forgetting that atheism is related to religious faith, which is different in D&D. In the real world, the existence of the divine cannot be proven through the empirical or the logical, and thus you only have your belief to go on. Thus, atheism is possible because an atheist believes that there is no god, and this, like religious faith, cannot be proven through understanding or reason.

D&D faith is inherently different because the existence of the gods CAN be proven through the five senses (for example, seeing the god) and logic (for example, the god must be real because he provides the cleric with spells). Thus, atheism cannot exist in D&D because the existence of the gods can be proven. Atheism can only exist if the existence of a divine figure is in question, and in D&D, there is no question that divine beings exist.

[arguskos]

But, atheism can be had if the quality of divinity is in question, since w/o said quality, there are no gods. It's not "Gods are physical and real" or "Gods aren't physical and real", it's "There is a quality that makes them gods and us people" or there isn't. At least, in my mind.

Back to the idea of the Athar, that's how I view them. Divinity is what's in question, as the concept itself.

Also, this is veering close to board regulations. We may wish to be cautious in these waters. Just sayin'.

[MickJay]

In other words, just because there are some very powerful beings out there doesn't mean they are divine. It all depends on what a person considers to be divine. If someone decided that a being, to be a god, has to be infallible and omniscient, then despite all the religions, churches, cults, working cleric spells and stuff, this person won't recognize any of the "deities" as gods.

Then you can have a person who will not accept as divine any being whatsoever, regardless of its attributes. "You know everything, you can do everything, good for you, but that doesn't mean you're a god" approach.

While some forms of atheism have similar characteristics to those of different faiths, you can still have a "pure" atheist in any setting and circumstances.

[RukiTanuki]

D&D faith is inherently different because the existence of the gods CAN be proven through the five senses (for example, seeing the god) and logic (for example, the god must be real because he provides the cleric with spells). Thus, atheism cannot exist in D&D because the existence of the gods can be proven. Atheism can only exist if the existence of a divine figure is in question, and in D&D, there is no question that divine beings exist.

I'm in agreement that the difference between the two environs is that the characters known as gods in D&D worlds actually have detectable effects. Where I'm confused is this: as you move the slider from A (there are no quantifiable deific-level events) through B (deific-level events occur even if they aren't caused by gods) to C (deific-level events are clearly the result of gods), at what exact point do you feel the concept of a "atheist" can no longer exist?

I'm focusing on the concept that (paraphrased) it's not an atheist unless they claim Bahamut doesn't exist; that the "deific-level entities exist but are not necessarily divine" argument is insufficient for a true atheist in a D&D world. What makes the difference between saying Bahamut doesn't exist, saying Elminster doesn't exist, and saying Ruki doesn't exist? Must the person have direct witness of the character? Verifiable accounts? How much power must the individual in question wield before an atheist is forced to disavow their exist?

I think where I'm getting tripped up is that the discussion revolves around the true sources of a cleric's power, and the particular energies that deific characters wield -- things that are stated clearly in the mechanical rules, but in the context of the world, aren't things that anyone knows for certain.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As I've said, the setting that best illustrates this sort of thing is Eberron. There, they explicitly say that cleric powers are based on an individual's faith, rather than just handed to them giftwrapped by the power of their choice. In Eberron, there is no guarantee that the gods exist. They aren't seen parading around as avatars. They stay out of mortal affairs, and for all we know, might not even exist. In the Eberron setting, atheism can exist. In a setting like Forgotten Realms, where the gods do parade around in avatars and generally stir up all kinds of mayhem with their soap opera lifestyle, atheism cannot exist. In fact, Forgotten Realms takes it a step further, threatening people who don't believe with the punishment of a soul-sucking wall. And Planescape? Planescape is, for lack of a better term, screwy. Because belief is everything in that setting, it gets so confusing because one person might be an "atheist," while another believes in the gods, and another thinks the gods are actually giant, purple, sausage-eating bewildered fish. And according to the way Planescape works, all of these concepts and none of them are true.

[Morty]

Diskworld is a little more complicated than this. There are a number of individual gods sustained by belief in themselves (Nuggan comes to mind, sort of).

The main pantheon, however, is pretty much the same set of gods. Io, for example, is all of the gods of thunder, but turns up wearing a different hat for each set of worshippers. He does this to maximize his powers.

Yet gods are sustained by mortals, not the other way around. You might even say gods are created by mortals, since a god's shape often depend on his or her worshippers. Small Gods and the "sheep need to be driven, goats need to be led" comparision comes to mind. Only the most powerful, oldest gods are indepentent on their followers. And even though I enjoy Faerun's crazy pantheon and Planescape's "belief is everything", the above is what I find most appropriate.